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View Full Version : My official endorsement for the 11th overall pick.


Direckshun
03-01-2012, 12:44 AM
It's not year to envy the decisions this front office has to make at the precarious position of #11 overall. There doesn't seem to be a quarterback on the board that is truly worth that investment, nor is there a nose tackle. And there is some debate as to whether running backs, right tackles, or guards should ever warrant that degree of investment.

As a result, if these are the options the Chiefs have to work with, the absolutely ideal option is to trade down from the 11th overall pick. If there is some way the Chiefs can trade down at all, they make the investment required of them less significant, while acquiring more talent in later rounds as a result.

I am normally not a big fan of trading down (I like taking the very best talent available), when your best options are running backs and right tackles, even a modest move down to something like the 16th pick makes our options much more appealing.

But assuming the Chiefs cannot trade down, and must select at this position, I believe the Kansas City Chiefs should draft RB Trent Richardson of Alabama with the 11th overall pick. The question of adding talent to your team via the draft should be focused around one question: how much better is your team with them than they were before?

With all the names floating around, like Tannehill, Poe, DeCastro, or Reiff, there is no player that dramatically changes what this team can do quite like Trent Richardson.

Let's break this down. Like I said a moment ago, the 11th pick is a very hard one to project for the Chiefs this year, because while the Chiefs have the 11th pick, there are really only six sure things to be off the board before their selection:
QB Andrew Luck, Stanford QB Robert Griffin III, Baylor WR Justin Blackmon, Oklahoma State OT Matt Kalil, USC CB Morris Claiborne, LSU DE Melvin Ingram, South Carolina
After that, we simply don't know how the other picks will fall.

Here is a list of the people that could ostensibly be available by the time the Chiefs are on the clock at #11: QB Ryan Tannehill, Texas A&M RB Trent Richardson, Alabama OT Riley Reiff, Iowa OT Jonathan Martin, Stanford OT Mike Adams, Ohio State OT/OG Cordy Glenn, Georgia OG David DeCastro, Stanford NT Dontari Poe, Memphis DE Quentin Coples, North Carolina ILB Luke Kuechly, Boston College OLB Courtney Upshaw, Alabama OLB Nick Perry, USC CB Dre Kirkpatrick, Alabama
There are some potential All Pros on this position, some players that would really help the Chiefs, and some players that don't fit at all.

To get to the players I'd prefer the Chiefs select, let's exercise the process of elimination.

Players That Don't Fit
OT Mike Adams, Ohio State
I always had a sneaking suspicion all year that Adams could turn out to be a great right tackle in the NFL. He's got the size, the domination in the run game, the occasionally plodding feet. He has a whiff of left tackle potential, which I thought would be useful in case we needed someone to fill in for a holding-out Branden Albert in 2013.

The problem with Adams is that there has been a heavy cloud of hearsay arising from the fact that he has serious character issues. He served not one, but two suspensions during his time at Ohio State, and now we've seen a serious lack of discipline during this draft season, which is just Vontaze Burfict levels of clinical stupidity. He only put up 19 reps at the Combine, which is evidence that he's not putting in the effort, at only the most important time in his career to do so.
DE Quentin Coples, North Carolina
Coples is a large, powerful passrusher who is not a fit in the 3-4. He is a 4-3 end only. Not to mention the fact that he's overrated.
CB Dre Kirkpatrick, Alabama
Kirkpatrick is incredibly talented, and despite some of his character concerns, would have been a perfectly fine fit for Crennel's defense. But the signing of Routt, a similar type of corner, make going for a corner in the first round impractical.

Players That Fit, But Aren't Worth The #11 Overall

QB Ryan Tannehill, Texas A&M

This will no doubt be the hardest sell to many of my fellow QB enthusiasts, who will be feeling particularly dejected once the Chiefs inevitably lose out on Peyton Manning in free agency and make miniscule QB depth chart moves in free agency like acquiring Chad Henne.

And I understand the exasperation. I've long believed you build your team around the QB position, and that QBs therefore require first round picks in any administration's attempt to build a Super Bowl winner. I advocated Matt Ryan in 2008, Mark Sanchez in 2009, and Jimmy Clausen in 2010. But I didn't advocate a QB with our first round pick in 2011 for the same reason I won't be advocating one this year: the value doesn't match the player.

Tannehill is a gifted athlete, and he does have some tools to piece together a franchise QB if he undergoes dramatic enough reconstruction. But his brief collegiate career (only 20 starts) and his inability to play up to the levels of his elite opponents is damning. All things being equal, Tannehill is a second round quality quarterback who is going to "Christian Ponder" up the big board due to some team's desperation at the QB position.

With a great QB class looming in 2013, there is no reason for us to be that team.

OT Jonathan Martin, Stanford

Martin is a talented finesse tackle, but simply doesn't bring the thunder or play with the aggressiveness you want to see from your franchise right tackle. Martin is much more natural playing on the left side, and should the Chiefs at this juncture decide that they aren't going to want to pay Branden Albert "franchise LT" money, bringing in Martin to eventually replace him is logical.

I think Martin can thrive on the left side. He is out of place on the right. As I am of the opinion that the Chiefs should pay Albert rather than let him walk, I do not advocate taking Martin.

NT Dontari Poe, Memphis

After watching Poe on tape and catching his Combine performance, I think that he could have a dynamic NFL career if he lands in the right system with the right coach. And he will need both in order to be successful. It's pretty clear he lacks discipline, and has been getting by at this point on his size and amazing measurables.

I don't think he's a two-gapper. He showed absolutely zero flashes to drop anchor in his time in Memphis. His technique is somewhere in the vicinity of nonexistant, and while that not mean much in a one-gap 3-4 defense where the objective is to penetrate and beat offensive lineman, a ton of technique is required to absorb blockers and eat up space like two-gap 3-4 defenses demand.

ILB Luke Kuechly, Boston College

I actually think Kuechly might be worth the #11 overall. I think he has the potential to be an impact interior linebacker in this league.

The problem is that he's not a natural thumper. He's much more of an athletic, all-purpose linebacker in the vein of Derrick Johnson. And, well, we already have a Derrick Johnson. You need the other ILB spot in Crennel's 3-4 defense to be a line of scrimmage destroyer like Jovan Belcher.

OLB/ILB Courtney Upshaw, Alabama

Speaking of a thumper: Courtney Upshaw. Upshaw is a large-sized OLB with experience in Alabama's 3-4, where he was utilized all over the field as a down-lineman, an outside rusher, and an interior line-pounder. Upshaw's versatility could be a big boost for Kansas City's defense, particularly if you believe Jovan Belcher is a weak link. A starting lineup of Hali-Upshaw-Johnson-Houston could be one of the best in the league.

The problem is that Upshaw doesn't look like a linebacker. He's not terribly slow, but his footwork and his athleticism look like that of an athletic down-lineman in a 4-3, and aren't on par with what you want from a linebacker. He just doesn't look the part unless he finds a way to drop 15-20 lbs and retain his power.

Players Worth Selecting

RB Trent Richardson, Alabama

WHY SELECT HIM: Richardson is a game-changing RB prospect on par with Adrian Peterson. He can be used in all three downs, and does it all: he can pound the line of scrimmage, he can get the tough yardage, he can glide in space and eat up yardage, he can pick up the blitz, he can receive out of the backfield. And combined with the similar all-around package of Jamaal Charles, who is smaller but also capable of running between the tackles, the Chiefs would have the best run game in the NFL by far. The pick would transform Matt Cassel into his Pro Bowl self from 2010, as Cassel only plays up to his maximum ability when the Chiefs can run the ball. Pairing Richardson with Charles ensures that transformation.

WHY NOT TO: Running back is a brutal position with a short shelf-life. I personally believe that Richardson could buck this trend as he is a legendary worker in the weight room. You could get a Maurice Jones-Drew career out of him very easily, I believe.

OT Riley Reiff, Iowa

WHY SELECT HIM: Reiff offers the most tackle flexibility of any of the Tier A tackles; Kalil and Martin can't play the right side, and Adams can't play the left. Reiff has the athleticism and technique to play the left side adequately, but he has the strength, power, and attitude to be a picture-perfect right tackle in the zone blocking system. This pick is the best of all worlds to solve the Chiefs' desperate tackle situation -- it gives them a ten-year, rock-solid starter at the right tackle position, while picking up insurance in case Branden Albert holds out in 2013. Reiff is not ideal for the left side, but he can play anywhere on the line, and is one of the surest picks in the draft this side of Andrew Luck.

WHY NOT TO: Unlike a couple of the other options at this point, Richardson and DeCastro, Reiff is not an all-time prospect at his position. He's just a very good prospect. So this, of course, begs the question: do you take a very good player at a more important position (OT), or do you take a phenomenal player at a less important position (OG, RB)?

OT/OG Cordy Glenn, Georgia

WHY SELECT HIM: If Reiff is the guy with the highest floor, Glenn is the guy with the highest ceiling. Glenn is someone you select if you believe Branden Albert is your franchise right tackle, and now you're just looking for someone to be able to similarly dominate at right tackle. Glenn's potential is limitless -- he's got some of the longest arms of the draft class, still benched as much as anybody despite those arms, and runs a 5.0 40 yard dash. His footwork in pass protection can be improved, and his run-blocking has the potential to be peerless at right tackle.

WHY NOT TO: There is a bust factor that's much higher than everybody else on this list. Glenn was never an outstanding pass protector at Georgia, though he was always a devastating run blocker. You typically don't like to have to spend tons of time reconstructing the habits of your #11 overall draft pick.

OG David DeCastro, Stanford

WHY SELECT HIM: Grouped with Albert, Hudson, and Asamoah, you would have an offensive line grouping (along with a RT of your choosing) that could last for close to a decade. But unlike those three players, DeCastro is not merely another piece to the puzzle; he could be the cornerstone of your line. A methodical, brutal blocker, DeCastro can neutralize nose tackles and chase down linebackers at the second level. He was Stanford's franchise player in the run-game, and he almost single-handedly plowed the Trees' run game. The Chiefs need the run game to be successful for Cassel to play well, and DeCastro offers you an elite, All Pro talent at the position that can keep Matt Cassel clean from Day One.

WHY NOT TO: You can find an extremely talented guards all over the NFL Draft, and free agency is loaded with them. You should not have to spend the #11 pick on a guard. DeCastro is a "franchise" guard, but what is that really worth when merely "really good" guards can also get the job done?

OLB Nick Perry, USC

WHY SELECT HIM: Because the Giants proved a passrush is truly the 1B need of a championship football team (quarterback being 1A, of course). Right now the Chiefs have a good team in Tamba Hali and Justin Houston, but (a.) Houston is not a sure thing, and has only really had one very good month as a rookie, and (b.) if either of these players go down with injury, the Chiefs find themselves mired in the same problem they've had for ages. Perry is a super-athlete, and has more drop-back ability than Houston. He is raw, but his elite athleticism make him the perfect versatile weapon for Crennel to tool with in any package he can possibly dream up.

WHY NOT TO: The Chiefs do, nonetheless, sport two very solid passrushers, while sporting desperate holes at a few other positions that the players above would address. Perry is a smart pick if you're not confident in Houston's development, but I am personally quite confident in Justin Houston.

But Richardson at 11 isn't ideal, right?

Right. As plenty of the names above indicate, the Chiefs can trade down as many as ten spots and still be in golden position to land much of the above talent. Trading down is the best possible solution.

If trading down is not possible, and Richardson is available, you take him and you sleep like a baby. After him, I'd probably take Reiff, and then DeCastro. But I'd be completely happy with either Glenn or Perry.

jd1020
03-01-2012, 01:39 AM
I wish I knew how someone could say that all of those "aren't worth the 11th pick" players aren't worth it and then turn around and say that Nick Perry is.

BossChief
03-01-2012, 01:46 AM
Good work, man.

I agree with most points (Perry, though? Really?) just stop the Cassel comments that make me want to throw a puppy off a bridge and were good.

Direckshun
03-01-2012, 03:11 AM
I wish I knew how someone could say that all of those "aren't worth the 11th pick" players aren't worth it and then turn around and say that Nick Perry is.

Good work, man.

I agree with most points (Perry, though? Really?) just stop the Cassel comments that make me want to throw a puppy off a bridge and were good.

Heh.

I'm a big Perry homer. He's got a really special first step (and, apparently, every step after that ain't too shabby either) and a decent-enough set of moves for a coach to build on.

He has all the athleticism of Houston and then some, and gives your defense more coverage ability at the linebacker position.

It's just a pure case of taking arguably the best talent on the board at a valued position, rather than settling for something like a right tackle.

Tribal Warfare
03-01-2012, 06:21 AM
On a tagent

http://www.nfl.com/player/connorbarwin/71197/profile

My mancrush was justified :D

the Talking Can
03-01-2012, 09:37 AM
pretty much agree, but with more cynicism

QB is far and away our biggest need, but we aren't going to do anything about it so...trading down is my hope, better value and more picks

second option, take Richardson...he's awesome and who make sure we always go 9-7 and never get rid of Cassel...Clark and Pioli wettest dream

Dave Lane
03-01-2012, 10:33 AM
I agree. RB is the weakest link on this team. We are one repaired ACL away from Jackie Battle feature back. Scary!

Dave Lane
03-01-2012, 10:35 AM
pretty much agree, but with more cynicism

QB is far and away our biggest need, but we aren't going to do anything about it so...trading down is my hope, better value and more picks

second option, take Richardson...he's awesome and who make sure we always go 9-7 and never get rid of Cassel...Clark and Pioli wettest dream

I'd prefer to go get RG3 but short of that we desperately need a potent back. TR gives us a 3-4 year window to get the QB on board.

Nightfyre
03-01-2012, 12:08 PM
Good post, but I still have a hard time justifying drafting a RB at 11, even if he is the perfect RB. Sidebar- No mention of Brockers?

goldtop
03-01-2012, 01:15 PM
Just for perspective would you rather draft Will Shields or John Tait with the 11th pick?
If Richardson isn't there I say take DeCastro.
1. DeCastro
2. Poe (he probably will go before this pick)
3. Massie
I like TE Egnew, but I don't know where he is slated post combine.

jd1020
03-01-2012, 01:36 PM
Just for perspective would you rather draft Will Shields or John Tait with the 11th pick?
If Richardson isn't there I say take DeCastro.
1. DeCastro
2. Poe (he probably will go before this pick)
3. Massie
I like TE Egnew, but I don't know where he is slated post combine.

Are you still talking 1st round or is this a 3 round "mock?"

DeezNutz
03-01-2012, 02:08 PM
Hard to bitch too much about taking BPA. I don't believe, however, that Richardson will be on the board at #11.

whoman69
03-01-2012, 02:38 PM
The NFL chews and spits out running backs these days. You say that its the biggest position of need for the Chiefs while I see that we just need to replace Jones. I say we can get that sort of production from any number of backs in the 4th round.

A NT in a 3-4 defense can be a dominant player that sets up the whole defense. You're talking about all the negatives for a player that at 346 lbs was an every down player for a team that had absolutely no talent around him. He'll be in a rotation with the Chiefs.

I have no doubts that he'll need to work on his technique to be good enough for the NFL. That's not a unique situation. You can't tell me someone who can as prepared as he did to the combine is not a hard worker. You have a 346 lb DT who runs faster than some LBs and benched 44 times. He's an athletic freak. You can't teach 346 lbs. This defense is a NT away from being Raven's dominant. We ranked 11th last year without Berry, with all the blowout losses and with Kelly Gregg one step from retirement.

Dontari Poe is potentially the most dominant player we can add at our position in the draft.

Wilson8
03-01-2012, 02:48 PM
Good assessment. Ironically your thought of the ideal option is to trade down, is more likely to occur if Trent Richardson is still there at 11. It might be hard for the Chiefs to draft Trent, when special offers of extra late 2nd or 3rd round draft picks come their way. Trent is a rare talent though so I hope the Chiefs plan for this possibility. KC can maybe pass on Trent if they are able to sign one of the good available free agent RBs to team with Charles.

goldtop
03-01-2012, 03:20 PM
Are you still talking 1st round or is this a 3 round "mock?"

3 round mock. Sorry if that was unclear.
Mel Kiper just came on and said Poe might go to Chiefs at 11, right about where Ngata went.

ForeverChiefs58
03-01-2012, 04:50 PM
ILB Luke Kuechly, Boston College

I actually think Kuechly might be worth the #11 overall. I think he has the potential to be an impact interior linebacker in this league.

The problem is that he's not a natural thumper. He's much more of an athletic, all-purpose linebacker in the vein of Derrick Johnson. And, well, we already have a Derrick Johnson. You need the other ILB spot in Crennel's 3-4 defense to be a line of scrimmage destroyer like Jovan Belcher.


Very nice work, and great analysis. I am curious about your points on Kuechly not being a thumper though.

I would say anyone who has 20 tackles in one game, a 33-game double-digit tackle streak between 2009 and 2011, which is the longest streak of its kind in FBS college football, would actually be considered somewhat of a thumper/destroyer type.

I know at the combine they were comparing him with Patrick Willis who is indeed considered a thumper.

According to CBSsports and ESPN, Most NFL-caliber college defenders average eight total tackles a game, counting assisted and solo stops, during their most productive season. In 2011, Kuechly led the nation with an astounding 191 tackles (102 solo) during the season, averaging nearly 16 tackles per game. That shows he is good at shedding blocks and has a nose for the ball and making plays no matter how the offense plans.

And finally, having more than one stud like DJ on our defense, wouldn't be a bad thing.

I really like the idea of getting Kuechly in the first and a NT in the 2nd, especially if Poe were to somehow drop, to go along with getting Paul Soliai in FA to really take our defense to the next level.

Although Trent Richardson is a stud and would be hard to pass if he was there, I wouldn't mind getting RB Mike Tolbert in FA to address this need.

Direckshun
03-02-2012, 02:31 AM
No mention of Brockers?

Brockers is a one-year wonder, still too much of an unknown quantity. And his Combine showing was horrific.

He's falling hard.

Direckshun
03-02-2012, 02:31 AM
Just for perspective would you rather draft Will Shields or John Tait with the 11th pick?

Very fair question. Very.

Direckshun
03-02-2012, 02:34 AM
The NFL chews and spits out running backs these days. You say that its the biggest position of need for the Chiefs while I see that we just need to replace Jones. I say we can get that sort of production from any number of backs in the 4th round.

A NT in a 3-4 defense can be a dominant player that sets up the whole defense. You're talking about all the negatives for a player that at 346 lbs was an every down player for a team that had absolutely no talent around him. He'll be in a rotation with the Chiefs.

I have no doubts that he'll need to work on his technique to be good enough for the NFL. That's not a unique situation. You can't tell me someone who can as prepared as he did to the combine is not a hard worker. You have a 346 lb DT who runs faster than some LBs and benched 44 times. He's an athletic freak. You can't teach 346 lbs. This defense is a NT away from being Raven's dominant. We ranked 11th last year without Berry, with all the blowout losses and with Kelly Gregg one step from retirement.

Dontari Poe is potentially the most dominant player we can add at our position in the draft.

I think you make a compelling case, but Poe would have to dramatically reconstruct his game. And that's a gamble you take with a player like him if (a.) he fits your scheme, and (b.) he's a reputable hard worker. He's iffy on both counts.

Alameda Ta'amu is a much better fit for this team. I'm starting to believe Ta'amu won't make it out of the first round.

If he's available at the top of the 2nd, or the Chiefs manage to trade down about 15 picks, he's perfect.

Direckshun
03-02-2012, 02:35 AM
Good assessment. Ironically your thought of the ideal option is to trade down, is more likely to occur if Trent Richardson is still there at 11. It might be hard for the Chiefs to draft Trent, when special offers of extra late 2nd or 3rd round draft picks come their way. Trent is a rare talent though so I hope the Chiefs plan for this possibility. KC can maybe pass on Trent if they are able to sign one of the good available free agent RBs to team with Charles.

Agreed.

It would not surprise me to see the Chiefs use Richardson to trade down.

I think I would prefer them to. But not by much...

Direckshun
03-02-2012, 02:38 AM
Very nice work, and great analysis. I am curious about your points on Kuechly not being a thumper though.

I would say anyone who has 20 tackles in one game, a 33-game double-digit tackle streak between 2009 and 2011, which is the longest streak of its kind in FBS college football, would actually be considered somewhat of a thumper/destroyer type.

I know at the combine they were comparing him with Patrick Willis who is indeed considered a thumper.

According to CBSsports and ESPN, Most NFL-caliber college defenders average eight total tackles a game, counting assisted and solo stops, during their most productive season. In 2011, Kuechly led the nation with an astounding 191 tackles (102 solo) during the season, averaging nearly 16 tackles per game. That shows he is good at shedding blocks and has a nose for the ball and making plays no matter how the offense plans.

And finally, having more than one stud like DJ on our defense, wouldn't be a bad thing.

I really like the idea of getting Kuechly in the first and a NT in the 2nd, especially if Poe were to somehow drop, to go along with getting Paul Soliai in FA to really take our defense to the next level.

Although Trent Richardson is a stud and would be hard to pass if he was there, I wouldn't mind getting RB Mike Tolbert in FA to address this need.

I don't know if you've seen Boston College play much this season, but Kuechly is essentially a bigger, stronger Donnie Edwards.

He's not a backfield penetrator, and he's not going to slam into the line to plug a gap. That's simply not his game. He's a world class coverage backer, or attacking the edges, or preventing 2-yard gains from becoming 20-yard gains.

In the Crennel 3-4, you need an athletic backer like him, and we have one already who has the ability to rush the passer and slam the hole in DJ. So really, we have a player much more talented than Kuechly.

The other inside backer needs to be the guy that hits the LOS with reckless abandon, becoming another defensive lineman from time to time. And you need a Donta Hightower or Courtney Upshaw for that role. It is the most devalued of the LB positions in the 3-4, however, mostly because it's a two-down role. And you don't spend a 1st rounder on that position.

Nightfyre
03-02-2012, 02:41 AM
Brockers is a one-year wonder, still too much of an unknown quantity. And his Combine showing was horrific.

He's falling hard.

He did not have nearly as impressive a showing as Poe did, I'll give you that.

Direckshun
03-02-2012, 02:43 AM
He did not have nearly as impressive a showing as Poe did, I'll give you that.

Well, nobody did. Poe and RG3 won the Combine.

Brockers is an impressive player who will need to lean on his gametape. It's impressive enough to warrant a first round pick. But he's not a slamdunk prospect anymore like most of the other players are in the first fifteen selections or so.

Chiefs=Good
03-02-2012, 08:34 AM
Cant say ive watched him. But the way some of youre talking it sounds like poe gets pushed around a hell of a lot. Is that true? From what ive heard he was used more to shoot gaps. Dont get that confused with a lack of 2 gap potential..

Direckshun
03-02-2012, 09:19 AM
Cant say ive watched him. But the way some of youre talking it sounds like poe gets pushed around a hell of a lot. Is that true? From what ive heard he was used more to shoot gaps. Dont get that confused with a lack of 2 gap potential..

You're dead right about Poe's usage at Memphis.

I will definitely argue that it directly means he lacks 2-gap potential.

Tyson Jackson is one of the smarter DE prospects you'll run across, and it still took him three solid years to learn 2-gap football. It is a very difficult scheme to play, and requires much more technique and discipline than 1-gap. To a certain extent, you can just tell a one-gapper to "go get 'em." A two-gapper has a much more difficult responsibility.

Dontari Poe would essentially have to be re-taught football. And Crennel is up to that challenge, but he shouldn't have to be subjected to that.

I have come around on Ta'amu, though. I think Ta'amu could be an excellent two-gapper.

boogblaster
03-02-2012, 09:57 AM
we need a QB .. but the top 2 wont be there ... so if we keep Orton on board, we need a OT or ILB ......

saphojunkie
03-02-2012, 12:20 PM
Interesting points, all. However, I just disagree that Poe's rawness is a drawback. Romeo is a fantastic developer of defensive line talent, and I think Poe's athleticism/size ratio makes him an elite prospect. His rawness can be corrected. If a man his size had polished technique, he'd be a top three pick.

If you can teach him to drop anchor, he will be an absolute wrecking ball in the middle. We had a horrible run defense last year, and it starts at the nose. The problem with the draft this year is that the #11 pick is too low for the players you want and too high for the players you could use.

We may as well completely forget about draft value or positional value, and just take the guy we think has the potential to be the best addition for the next ten years. In that case, for me it's Reiff, Glenn, Decastro, or Poe.

I'm with you on Kuechly. ELITE middle linebacker, but redundant given DJ's skill set.

whoman69
03-02-2012, 02:42 PM
Interesting points, all. However, I just disagree that Poe's rawness is a drawback. Romeo is a fantastic developer of defensive line talent, and I think Poe's athleticism/size ratio makes him an elite prospect. His rawness can be corrected. If a man his size had polished technique, he'd be a top three pick.

If you can teach him to drop anchor, he will be an absolute wrecking ball in the middle. We had a horrible run defense last year, and it starts at the nose. The problem with the draft this year is that the #11 pick is too low for the players you want and too high for the players you could use.

We may as well completely forget about draft value or positional value, and just take the guy we think has the potential to be the best addition for the next ten years. In that case, for me it's Reiff, Glenn, Decastro, or Poe.

I'm with you on Kuechly. ELITE middle linebacker, but redundant given DJ's skill set.

Sapp called Poe a bowling ball of knives. IMO our biggest position of need on D. You can't tell me that the results he got at the combine didn't come from hard work.

Direckshun
03-02-2012, 09:03 PM
Interesting points, all. However, I just disagree that Poe's rawness is a drawback. Romeo is a fantastic developer of defensive line talent, and I think Poe's athleticism/size ratio makes him an elite prospect. His rawness can be corrected. If a man his size had polished technique, he'd be a top three pick.

If you can teach him to drop anchor, he will be an absolute wrecking ball in the middle. We had a horrible run defense last year, and it starts at the nose. The problem with the draft this year is that the #11 pick is too low for the players you want and too high for the players you could use.

It's not that simple.

Two-gap football isn't just physically taxing, it's psychologically taxing. It's a very tough scheme, but when you play it very well, you've got a top defense.

Crennel's a brilliant developer of talent, but two-gap football is just too tough to start all over from scratch. It's a style of play (occupying blockers, absorbing punishment) that's as much a mindset and a way of life as it is a style of play. Dropping anchor is one thing, craving the opportunity to drop anchor is another thing.

Look at the one nose tackle prospect they drafted: Jerrell Powe. Powe has dedicated his life to this specific style of play. He's so old school when it comes to the nose tackle position he calls it the "nose guard." His career after football? Construction.

Powe may or may not take off, but the Chiefs deliberately drafted him because he was built for this style of play and loves to play it. He's the block of granite type.

From my limited time watching Memphis this year, I don't think that's in Poe's DNA. I think he's a thrasher -- he has never once to occupy a blocker, his assignments his whole career thus far has been to put the guy in front of him on his ass.

I really like Poe. And I do think Crennel could develop him. I just don't think his best upside is in the two-gap 3-4. It's either in the one-gap system or in a 4-3.

It's clear that you only have really one guy from this draft that is built for this system, and it's Alabama's Josh Chapman. He has the highest floor for the position.

ThaVirus
03-02-2012, 11:02 PM
The NFL chews and spits out running backs these days. You say that its the biggest position of need for the Chiefs while I see that we just need to replace Jones. I say we can get that sort of production from any number of backs in the 4th round.

A NT in a 3-4 defense can be a dominant player that sets up the whole defense. You're talking about all the negatives for a player that at 346 lbs was an every down player for a team that had absolutely no talent around him. He'll be in a rotation with the Chiefs.

I have no doubts that he'll need to work on his technique to be good enough for the NFL. That's not a unique situation. You can't tell me someone who can as prepared as he did to the combine is not a hard worker. You have a 346 lb DT who runs faster than some LBs and benched 44 times. He's an athletic freak. You can't teach 346 lbs. This defense is a NT away from being Raven's dominant. We ranked 11th last year without Berry, with all the blowout losses and with Kelly Gregg one step from retirement.

Dontari Poe is potentially the most dominant player we can add at our position in the draft.

I agree about the RB thingy. Not so much on Poe though. Not that I've even watched him play. I'm just weary of workout warriors.

BigChiefFan
03-03-2012, 11:53 AM
The NFL chews and spits out running backs these days. You say that its the biggest position of need for the Chiefs while I see that we just need to replace Jones. I say we can get that sort of production from any number of backs in the 4th round.

A NT in a 3-4 defense can be a dominant player that sets up the whole defense. You're talking about all the negatives for a player that at 346 lbs was an every down player for a team that had absolutely no talent around him. He'll be in a rotation with the Chiefs.

I have no doubts that he'll need to work on his technique to be good enough for the NFL. That's not a unique situation. You can't tell me someone who can as prepared as he did to the combine is not a hard worker. You have a 346 lb DT who runs faster than some LBs and benched 44 times. He's an athletic freak. You can't teach 346 lbs. This defense is a NT away from being Raven's dominant. We ranked 11th last year without Berry, with all the blowout losses and with Kelly Gregg one step from retirement.

Dontari Poe is potentially the most dominant player we can add at our position in the draft.

Outstanding post, man.

I think you bring up some really points, of why, all things being equal, the value of a NT outweighs a HB, even a HB the caliber of Richardson. I concur on all your points.

Ultra Peanut
03-04-2012, 12:40 AM
Trade the #11 pick to Peyton Manning imo

Direckshun
03-04-2012, 12:57 AM
Trade the #11 pick to Peyton Manning imo

yer dum

Ultra Peanut
03-04-2012, 12:57 AM
nope

Tribal Warfare
03-04-2012, 03:29 AM
Actually the more I think about it, I'm starting to believe will the pick if we sign Soliai or not because of Dontari's positional versatility on the D-line.

O.city
03-04-2012, 02:45 PM
I put more stock into the overall body of work than the numbers a guy puts up at the combine. Poe didn't do much at Memphis. Yeah he might have had shit around him, but with those measurables why couldn't he just physically manhandle people?

I'm fine with taking him if we can trade down, not at 11 if there are sure fire players still on the board.

whoman69
03-04-2012, 03:13 PM
Trade the #11 pick to Peyton Manning imo

I don't even know what that means.

Saccopoo
03-04-2012, 06:41 PM
Very fair question. Very.

If you don't understand positional value perhaps.

Tait was a Pro-Bowl player as was Shields. Not as many times, but Tait was among the best right tackles in the NFL during his career.

Ask yourself how good that offensive line was once Peterson pissed off Tait and he went to Chicago and we were left with Pumpy Welbourne, Back Spasm Turley, and the host of others we've tried to put into that position that have failed miserably. Our QB's have been on the run since '03, and that was with Shields still there for three more years after Tait left.

It goes to show the importance of an effective edge protector versus a guard.

But, as usual, most people around here don't understand it or get it or whatever.

Carry on.

Saccopoo
03-04-2012, 06:50 PM
I don't know if you've seen Boston College play much this season, but Kuechly is essentially a bigger, stronger Donnie Edwards.

He's not a backfield penetrator, and he's not going to slam into the line to plug a gap. That's simply not his game. He's a world class coverage backer, or attacking the edges, or preventing 2-yard gains from becoming 20-yard gains.

In the Crennel 3-4, you need an athletic backer like him, and we have one already who has the ability to rush the passer and slam the hole in DJ. So really, we have a player much more talented than Kuechly.

The other inside backer needs to be the guy that hits the LOS with reckless abandon, becoming another defensive lineman from time to time. And you need a Donta Hightower or Courtney Upshaw for that role. It is the most devalued of the LB positions in the 3-4, however, mostly because it's a two-down role. And you don't spend a 1st rounder on that position.

I'd argue that DJ is "much more talented" than Kuechly. DJ has, other than this past season, been inconsistent at best and has never really lived up to his first round selection. Even this past season, he showed up fat and out of shape for the start.

Kuechly has excellent measurables and is one of the most instinctive and productive linebackers in the history of college football. His work ethic has been superb at Boston College. And unlike Johnson, Kuechly is amazing at shedding blockers and getting to the ball and making a sound tackle when he gets there. The knock on Johnson, from college to now, is that he doesn't shed blocks well (which he doesn't) and is an open field pass defender, which he is.

You are putting a size value to the position versus a production value to the position. Hightower or Upshaw are not as good as Kuechly. They are bigger. That doesn't mean that they are better, which they aren't.

Brock
03-04-2012, 06:51 PM
[QUOTE=Saccopoo;8417184
Ask yourself how good that offensive line was once Peterson pissed off Tait and he went to Chicago
[/QUOTE]

Uh...it was still fantastic until Roaf and Shields left.

11 is too high for RT.

Saccopoo
03-04-2012, 06:51 PM
Cant say ive watched him. But the way some of youre talking it sounds like poe gets pushed around a hell of a lot. Is that true? From what ive heard he was used more to shoot gaps. Dont get that confused with a lack of 2 gap potential..

I don't know how only 8 (that's correct - EIGHT) tackles for loss and one sack for the entire 2011 season equates to a guy who was "shooting the gaps."

If that was Poe's job, he sucked at it. Hard.

Saccopoo
03-04-2012, 06:58 PM
Uh...it was still fantastic until Roaf and Shields left.

11 is too high for RT.

Uh, no it wasn't.

Go back and watch those games and tell me how much the offense changed once Tait left and we were left with Pumpy Welbourne and every other right tackle since him.

'03 was the begining of the end of that offensive line.

Yeah, Shields and Roaf were great, but defenses started exploiting that right side. Ask Trent, Damon, Brodie and Matt what they thought of the right side edge protection. It got 3 out of 4 killed.

Brock
03-04-2012, 07:08 PM
Uh, no it wasn't.

Go back and watch those games and tell me how much the offense changed once Tait left and we were left with Pumpy Welbourne and every other right tackle since him.

'03 was the begining of the end of that offensive line.

Yeah, Shields and Roaf were great, but defenses started exploiting that right side. Ask Trent, Damon, Brodie and Matt what they thought of the right side edge protection. It got 3 out of 4 killed.

You're confused. That team had a fantastic offensive line up until Roaf and Shields left. I don't care about Damon, Brodie, and Matt, because they never played with Roaf and Shields.

You're pining for John Tait, even though he was just a failed LT project that turned out to be a pretty good RT, but if teams knew that's what he was, he wouldn't have been taken as high as he was in the draft.

O.city
03-04-2012, 07:09 PM
Sac, waht RT are we to be taking at that spot?


If Richardson is around, I'd rather take him and grab a RT later. I liked Reynolds alot but haven't heard much about him lately.


Also been hearing alot about Zeitler from Wisconsin.

Saccopoo
03-04-2012, 08:05 PM
Sac, waht RT are we to be taking at that spot?


If Richardson is around, I'd rather take him and grab a RT later. I liked Reynolds alot but haven't heard much about him lately.


Also been hearing alot about Zeitler from Wisconsin.

There's no tackle I really like that should be available at 11. I think Reiff and Kalil are gone by that pick and I agree with Direck that Martin is a left tackle versus a right, but who knows. Right tackle is the biggest current hole on the team, but I think a guy like Reynolds will be there in the third.

I also agree that Kuechly is the same player as Johnson. Kuechly is a stud, but I really like Belcher and I hope that Johnson has decided that he'd like to be the guy from 2011 for the rest of his career. They need depth at the ILB positions though.

Picking Richardson is a little like taking Kuechly. We've already got Charles, who is, on any given day, the best running back in the league, so you are taking a part time guy, a guy who is going to split time at 11. That's expensive.

Poe is a huge reach based on his lack of production in college. Same for Brockers (who I like a lot, but with only one year of production, it's a bit of a gamble). And I agree with Direck that Powe is a old school, in the trenches guy that is going to be a solid player at the nose for the Chiefs.

DeCastro is a guard. We've taken two All-American guards (Asamoah and Hudson) the past two drafts. Redundant and silly to draft another one, especially at #11.

We need a center, but it's about 7 to 11 spots too high to take Konz, who I really like but there is a bit of an injury history with him.

You've got elite level talent in Kuechly, DeCastro and Konz. But all three play positions that don't dictate a pick that high and in the case of DeCastro, we already have picked two young and talented guards. (And I think Hudson was a better player at the same stage as DeCastro anyway, and I'd rather take a pure center than try to convert a very good guard to center and draft another guard.)

I really think that the Chiefs make a move in this draft. A big one.

O.city
03-04-2012, 08:23 PM
Up or down?



Only reason I would take Richardson is based on Charles injury and injury history. Richardson is a monster who could handle a ton of carries if you need him to. I'm not sure that he woudln't end up being better than Charles.

Saccopoo
03-04-2012, 08:52 PM
Up or down?

Up.

I think that they go for Griffin.

Only reason I would take Richardson is based on Charles injury and injury history. Richardson is a monster who could handle a ton of carries if you need him to. I'm not sure that he woudln't end up being better than Charles

It's going to be hard being better than Charles. Like I said, on any given Sunday, Charles is the best back in the league. And Richardson is coming off a knee scope of his own. No running back is completely immune to the injury bug, and because of what they do, they are susceptible to injury moreso than a lot of other positions.

If Charles' knee is okay, the Richardson pick is a bad one. If Charles is not sound medically, it's still a risky pick just based on the position alone.

O.city
03-04-2012, 09:05 PM
Better than Charles is kind of a bad use of words.


I think he could be more complete than Charles. I don't think there is a RB duty that he guy can't do at a top level.

If I'm not mistaken, he just had his knee scoped. A knee he hurt earlier in the season but played with it for a little while.

I get the rb stuff, but IMO he's one of the top 4 or 5 talents in the draft. It would be hard to pass that up.

Saccopoo
03-04-2012, 09:20 PM
Better than Charles is kind of a bad use of words.


I think he could be more complete than Charles. I don't think there is a RB duty that he guy can't do at a top level.

If I'm not mistaken, he just had his knee scoped. A knee he hurt earlier in the season but played with it for a little while.

I get the rb stuff, but IMO he's one of the top 4 or 5 talents in the draft. It would be hard to pass that up.

I think he's an elite level talent for the position.

There are some very nice players in this draft. Luck, Griffin, Kalil, DeCastro, Kuechly and Richardson are all "elite" level players. Blackmon, Claiborne, Konz and Jenkins are "near elite." And there are some really good, solid players like Reiff, Kirkpatrick and Martin. There is also some real high-ceiling "boom-bust" guys like Brockers, Poe, etc. It's one of the better first rounds that I can remember.

The problem is, the Chiefs kind of fall into a no-man's land at that #11 pick with regards to need/BPA. Richardson is a luxury. Kuechly is a luxury. DeCastro is a luxury. Griffin/Luck is going to cost an arm and a leg to go get. Martin is a left tackle. (Do they go that route and move Albert over to RT?) Do you draft a right tackle, like Reiff, that high?

It's a very solid, top heavy draft with a deep first round and good talent deep at a lot of positions. The Chiefs should come out with a very good player regardless.

O.city
03-04-2012, 09:24 PM
I could get on board with RGIII, if we use the rest of our late picks to do some damage.


Which is possible as this is a deep draft.

O.city
03-04-2012, 11:22 PM
You really think they will move up for RGIII?

Saccopoo
03-04-2012, 11:36 PM
You really think they will move up for RGIII?

I think that they are going to make an effort to do so.

Pioli takes McCluster with a very high second. He's a luxury pick in that we had Charles and Bowe. With the other second rounder he takes Arenas. Both are special team/third down specialists at that point.

The following year, he takes a safety in the top five. Something that's almost taboo in the draft.

These guys were speed guys, explosive guys. Also smart guys and team leaders.

Griffin is that same type of guy. At a substantially more important position.

He's moved up in the last couple of drafts for tight ends. It's not like he's against doing so.

I think Griffin is projecting as the type of guy Pioli wants, and I think that they get involved in the trade up process.

O.city
03-04-2012, 11:38 PM
Would you do it Sac?


I think I would if we can keep our picks from the 3 on this year.

Saccopoo
03-05-2012, 12:40 AM
Would you do it Sac?


I think I would if we can keep our picks from the 3 on this year.

I don't know.

It's risky to give up what it's going to require to move up for an unknown commodity.

He doesn't have a big frame and I'd worry about potential injury due to his propensity to run on a play break down. He's not Tebow or Newton or Rothlisberger or even Luck.

He is electric though, and has already energized the fan base just thinking about him on the field in a Chief's uniform.

He comes across as intelligent, seems to have an understanding of the game and plays with passion. But so does a guy like Kellen Moore, who has four solid years of winning football behind him, and you could get Moore in the fifth/sixth round.

I just don't know. However, I think that they understand that the fan base needs something like this. Look what Tebow did in Denver. Newton in Carolina. I think Pioli/Crennel/Hunt want it and I think that they'll do their due diligence in exploring all the options.

Chiefs=Good
03-05-2012, 08:22 AM
I don't know.

It's risky to give up what it's going to require to move up for an unknown commodity.

He doesn't have a big frame and I'd worry about potential injury due to his propensity to run on a play break down. He's not Tebow or Newton or Rothlisberger or even Luck.

He is electric though, and has already energized the fan base just thinking about him on the field in a Chief's uniform.

He comes across as intelligent, seems to have an understanding of the game and plays with passion. But so does a guy like Kellen Moore, who has four solid years of winning football behind him, and you could get Moore in the fifth/sixth round.

I just don't know. However, I think that they understand that the fan base needs something like this. Look what Tebow did in Denver. Newton in Carolina. I think Pioli/Crennel/Hunt want it and I think that they'll do their due diligence in exploring all the options.

One of the better posts ive seen in a while, minus the moore talk.

Saccopoo
03-05-2012, 10:08 AM
One of the better posts ive seen in a while, minus the moore talk.

I was simply pointing out that it's the athleticism of Griffin that is putting him into the top ten as Moore has every intangible that you would want in a quarterback, minus that elite level athleticism that you get with Griffin.

But, as I mentioned, because he doesn't possess a big frame, and never will, that elite level of athleticism might come with the potential for injuries as the quarterback is susectible to those blind side, bad angle hit and tackles, especially when a play breaks down and he takes off running.

I see Griffin as a modern day equivilent of Fran Tarkenton. Tark was a very fast, athletic quarterback who also possessed a very good arm and superb field awareness but had a relatively small frame. He made a Hall of Fame career on his ability to successfully extend a play after it had broken down with both his arm and legs. If you've never seen Tarkenton play, it was absolutely electric - very similar to what you are going to get with Griffin. Frantic Fran was also very smart and had a great understanding of the game.

If Griffin possesses the uncanny ability to feel the defense and see the field like Tark did, he'll be just fine. If he relies simply on his arm and athleticism to play, much like Vick, he's going to open himself up to the potential for injuries.

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Direckshun
04-26-2012, 10:33 PM
From the OP.

NT Dontari Poe, Memphis
After watching Poe on tape and catching his Combine performance, I think that he could have a dynamic NFL career if he lands in the right system with the right coach. And he will need both in order to be successful. It's pretty clear he lacks discipline, and has been getting by at this point on his size and amazing measurables.

I don't think he's a two-gapper. He showed absolutely zero flashes to drop anchor in his time in Memphis. His technique is somewhere in the vicinity of nonexistant, and while that not mean much in a one-gap 3-4 defense where the objective is to penetrate and beat offensive lineman, a ton of technique is required to absorb blockers and eat up space like two-gap 3-4 defenses demand.

This is what Crennel is up against.