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View Full Version : Chiefs Late night bullshit: I know this means I'm clinically stupid, but I think RG3 busts.


Direckshun
03-04-2012, 09:10 PM
Yes, that's right.

And yes, I know this makes me stupid, because everybody and their mother loves RG3 and believes he is a potential All Pro QB.

I'll keep this short and sweet, since I haven't even hit "submit" yet and I can sense the brow-beating I'm going to take.

But some people believe you should trade away our entire draft for RG3. Something no other team in the NFL has ever done for a QB.

I don't think we should. And putting aside all those worries about the draft being a place from which we can build depth, and all the young talent we'd be forfeiting on, etc etc.

For the purposes of this post, I'm just going to focus on RG3. I think the kid could bust.

Several concerns:

* The only player that actually projects to RG3's style of play in the modern NFL is Michael Vick. And Vick's career has been injury-laden and teams have effectively schemed in 2011 to erase him from the equation anyway.

* Griffin has a fantastic arm. But if you watch any games he played over the past couple years, it's not exactly a pro offense he's running, to put it kindly. To put it even harsher, Griffin's extreme, unprecedented athleticism absorbed and confused college defenses so profoundly that he was basically playing catch the past couple of years against broken-down defenses. Anybody watch the bowl game against Washington?

I am a believer that the more NFL throws (i.e. accurate throws into tight windows) a QB has to make in college is a predictor of their NFL success. Griffin was such a unique talent in that wide-open spread Baylor runs that he almost never had to do this.

* His style of play is radical. There's no existing playbook for somebody who plays like he does, with his amazing versatility and electric game-breaking ability. There's no precedent that this kind of quarterbacking reaps Super Bowl success.

* A lot of Griffin's highlight reels come from broken plays, and he is an astonishing player for those kinds of circumstances. His Plan Cs and Ds are fascinating. But I don't have a lot of faith in Griffin's abilities to read blitzes or coverage schemes, because he's never had to. (Granted, this is a complaint for the vast majority of QB prospects, but it's a valid concern if we're giving up an entire draft for the guy.)

* Also, and this might just be my lack of familiarity with who RG3 is as a person: by all accounts, RG3 is a humble, high-character kid. But I don't know if he's intelligent. There are some truly intelligent players in this draft: Luck, Cousins, Weeden, Keenum. But there hasn't been the same flooding of praise about RG3's intelligence as there has been for some of these other QBs.

I accept the punishment I'm about to receive. I know it's coming. I'm and idiot.

But somebody needs to register some dissent against the assinine idea of trading away an entire draft for a player we'd have to radically reconstruct our playbook to accomodate.

Sofa King
03-04-2012, 09:12 PM
http://lifewithouttaffy.com/taffy/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/thats_racist.gif

Direckshun
03-04-2012, 09:13 PM
http://lifewithouttaffy.com/taffy/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/thats_racist.gif

God you're fast.

Quick, gif up how badly I'm going to get my ass handed to me in this thread.

KC Tattoo
03-04-2012, 09:15 PM
You lost me when compared to mike vick man. He is a good passer & can have upside much like Cam Newton. I can understand the conserns, however we never go out of our way for a top notch draft pick & it's been over 30 years since we drafted one in the first round. Look at our track record & number of playoff wins as a result.

tredadda
03-04-2012, 09:15 PM
The guy is close to his Masters degree in the time it takes most to earn their Bachelors. If that doesnt say something about his intelligence, nothing will.

Chiefspants
03-04-2012, 09:15 PM
But I don't know if he's intelligent. There are some truly intelligent players in this draft: Luck, Cousins, Weeden, Keenum. But there hasn't been the same flooding of praise about RG3's intelligence as there has been for some of these other QBs.



Have you watched any interviews with the kid? Everything I have seen and read about this RGIII directly contradicts your concerns here.

milkman
03-04-2012, 09:16 PM
What's your difinition of "short"?

O.city
03-04-2012, 09:16 PM
He was accepted into Law school after 3 years in college where he got a degree in political science and was finishing a masters degree in it this year.


I'd say he's pretty intelligent.

O.city
03-04-2012, 09:17 PM
Maybe his radical play puts whatever team that gets him ahead of the curve?

Direckshun
03-04-2012, 09:17 PM
You lost me when compared to mike vick man. He is a good passer & can have upside much like Cam Newton. I can understand the conserns, however we never go out of our way for a top notch draft pick & it's been over 30 years since we drafted one in the first round. Look at our track record & number of playoff wins as a result.

Cam Newton, off the top of my head, is two inches taller (meh) and something like 30-40 pounds of pure muscle heavier.

Newton, like Tebow, can afford to play that way because he has the body to take that kind of abuse.

RG3's body type is pure Vick.

I can appreciate your desire to win playoffs games. But I'm all about picking the high fruit. I want a Super Bowl. And an RG3, Mike Vick type QB has never won one.

Douche Baggins
03-04-2012, 09:17 PM
Cam Newton was just fine, RGIII is an even better prospect.

Direckshit.

Inmem58
03-04-2012, 09:17 PM
He was accepted into Law school after 3 years in college where he got a degree in political science and was finishing a masters degree in it this year.


I'd say he's pretty intelligent.


He held a gun to his professors head

Direckshun
03-04-2012, 09:18 PM
The guy is close to his Masters degree in the time it takes most to earn their Bachelors. If that doesnt say something about his intelligence, nothing will.

He was accepted into Law school after 3 years in college where he got a degree in political science and was finishing a masters degree in it this year.

I'd say he's pretty intelligent.

Point taken.

milkman
03-04-2012, 09:18 PM
The guy is close to his Masters degree in the time it takes most to earn their Bachelors. If that doesnt say something about his intelligence, nothing will.

He was accepted into Law school after 3 years in college where he got a degree in political science and was finishing a masters degree in it this year.


I'd say he's pretty intelligent.

The stupidity some people use to justify their positions is amazing at times.

lewdog
03-04-2012, 09:18 PM
Why are people so concerned with a bust? Clearly what we have been doing for all these years, using retread QBs isn't working either. Atleast it would bring some excitement and a chance to be better. Of course we could just draft some OL and DL in the upcoming draft, trot Matt Cassel out and go 7-9 or 8-8 for the next 2 years. That has always been so much fun.

O.city
03-04-2012, 09:18 PM
Sorry?

O.city
03-04-2012, 09:19 PM
The stupidity some people use to justify their positions is amazing at times.

Not sure who you are aiming this at.

Mr. Laz
03-04-2012, 09:19 PM
any draft pick can bust

I still think the first coaching staff they taught by makes a huge difference ... especially with QB's.

tredadda
03-04-2012, 09:19 PM
Cam Newton, off the top of my head, is two inches taller (meh) and something like 30-40 pounds of pure muscle heavier.

Newton, like Tebow, can afford to play that way because he has the body to take that kind of abuse.

RG3's body type is pure Vick.

I can appreciate your desire to win playoffs games. But I'm all about picking the high fruit. I want a Super Bowl. And an RG3, Mike Vick type QB has never won one.

But RGIII unlike Vick is a pass first QB. Big, big difference.

Direckshun
03-04-2012, 09:19 PM
Cam Newton was just fine, RGIII is an even better prospect.

Direckshit.

Cry my a river, pickle dick.

RG3 is more Vick than Newton.

Direckshun
03-04-2012, 09:20 PM
Why are people so concerned with a bust? Clearly what we have been doing for all these years, using retread QBs isn't working either. Atleast it would bring some excitement and a chance to be better. Of course we could just draft some OL and DL in the upcoming draft, trot Matt Cassel out and go 7-9 or 8-8 for the next 2 years. That has always been so much fun.

So take a QB at 11, and risk the bust there.

Don't throw away your entire draft for one.

milkman
03-04-2012, 09:20 PM
Cam Newton, off the top of my head, is two inches taller (meh) and something like 30-40 pounds of pure muscle heavier.

Newton, like Tebow, can afford to play that way because he has the body to take that kind of abuse.

RG3's body type is pure Vick.

I can appreciate your desire to win playoffs games. But I'm all about picking the high fruit. I want a Super Bowl. And an RG3, Mike Vick type QB has never won one.

The only valid comparison between RGIII and Vick is that both are black and athletic.

Vick was in an offense equally as simplistic nad didn't throw the ball with near the acuracy that RGIII did in colloege, and RGIII is a passer that has the athletic ability to run when everything breaks down, whereas Vick was a run first QB.

O.city
03-04-2012, 09:21 PM
I don't really see him as more Vick, but I guess some could.


I don't think Vick has ever been or ever will be the passer RGIII is. I think RGIII will end up being a pocket guy. I think he is smart enough to figure out what happens to running qbs int he NFL.

tk13
03-04-2012, 09:21 PM
He's much more Randall Cunningham than Michael Vick. I really don't like the Cam Newton comparisons. Newton is a linebacker with QB skills. There isn't another human being like him in the league. Newton and Tebow are runners that inflict punishment on the defense... that's not Griffin.

That said, I don't think Griffin busts. He's got the arm and the intelligence. But it's a tough contradiction. History says QB's don't win Super Bowls with their legs... but Griffin can fly. He can really, really fly. You don't want to take that kind of dynamic weapon away. He can be successful and win playoff games.. but will it be enough to beat that top 1% of QBs who are truly elite passers.

milkman
03-04-2012, 09:21 PM
Not sure who you are aiming this at.

Direckshun.

O.city
03-04-2012, 09:23 PM
Honestly I'm fine with him running. But he's gotta run when all else fails.


That can be a huge weapon on third downs when things do break down. But again, don't take off just to take off.

lewdog
03-04-2012, 09:23 PM
So take a QB at 11, and risk the bust there.

Don't throw away your entire draft for one.

Um, so he has a higher chance of being a bust.....Heisman winner RG III or the guy we pick at #11 (broke dick Tannehill)? You don't think this play it safe shit we always do is getting old and getting us no where?

Direckshun
03-04-2012, 09:23 PM
He's much more Randall Cunningham than Michael Vick. I really don't like the Cam Newton comparisons.

Ah. Decent point.

milkman
03-04-2012, 09:23 PM
I do think the comparisons to Steve Young are the most valid of comparisons.

The Randall Cunningham one works, as well, but not as close to Young.

Direckshun
03-04-2012, 09:24 PM
Um, so he has a higher chance of being a bust.....Heisman winner RG III or the guy we pick at #11 (broke dick Tannehill)? You don't think this play it safe shit we always do is getting old and getting us no where?

I'm not always in favor of playing it safe.

I try to play it smart.

tredadda
03-04-2012, 09:24 PM
People see him as a QB who can run and naturally assume he is a run first QB who can't throw which is the farthest thing from the truth.

Setsuna
03-04-2012, 09:24 PM
First of all. No player currently in the NFL compares to RG3. So you comparing Vick to him is 100% false, therefore I stopped reading further and your whole post, which is the thread is void.

O.city
03-04-2012, 09:25 PM
One thing is for sure, if the Chiefs trade up to get the guy, Clarks gonna get to make some money.


A shiny new Heisman winning qb is gonna put people in the seats.


Maybe not as much as a bobble head Manning would tho.

Direckshun
03-04-2012, 09:25 PM
First of all. No player currently in the NFL compares to RG3. So you comparing Vick to him is 100% false, therefore I stopped reading further and your whole post, which is the thread is void.

I guarantee you post one more time in this thread. :D

Mr. Laz
03-04-2012, 09:26 PM
Honestly I'm fine with him running. But he's gotta run when all else fails.
Extremely hard to do without it effecting the development of the passing game of a young QB. Every running QB that's ever come out as 'tried' to only run at the end, rarely works. If they have the running option in their head they just don't go through the progressions the same.

tk13
03-04-2012, 09:27 PM
And before all the usual idiots chime in... I realize he was a much better college passer than Vick, etc, and have seen him play several times. But the dude is electric running the football, and will mostly likely be the fastest guy on the field when he plays. There's a legitimate chance some people could think Griffin is better than Luck at the end of next season because of the dynamic plays Griffin is capable of making. I almost bet some scouts will think that after both pro days.

Douche Baggins
03-04-2012, 09:28 PM
RGIII is closer to Randall Cunningham than Vick.

Douche Baggins
03-04-2012, 09:28 PM
RGIII is closer to Randall Cunningham than Vick.

You stupid fuck, read the thread.

KC Tattoo
03-04-2012, 09:28 PM
Cam Newton, off the top of my head, is two inches taller (meh) and something like 30-40 pounds of pure muscle heavier.

Newton, like Tebow, can afford to play that way because he has the body to take that kind of abuse.

RG3's body type is pure Vick.

I can appreciate your desire to win playoffs games. But I'm all about picking the high fruit. I want a Super Bowl. And an RG3, Mike Vick type QB has never won one.

We all want a Super Bowl DUH~ It's how to get there that matters & the past history of rejected retreads have lead nothing but FAIL so suck on that. Now if we can get a guy that is here for the long hall that can put us in the hunt year in and year out that we can enjoy watching can put us over the top & glory. Nothing is guaranteed in this game, but I like the odds of a player that can be around 10+ years to give us that chance & possibly be greety for more.

O.city
03-04-2012, 09:29 PM
Extremely hard to do without it effecting the development of the passing game of a young QB. Every running QB that's ever come out as 'tried' to only run at the end, rarely works. If they have the running option in their head they just don't go through the progressions the same.

This is very true.


He's going to have to be drilled into making progressions.


However like some have said, he is electric running the ball, a skill that can be taken advantage of. But we dont' want our prize investment to be beat up. So he's gonna have to stay in the pocket as much as he can.

O.city
03-04-2012, 09:29 PM
And for god sakes when you do run, SLIDE.

Direckshun
03-04-2012, 09:30 PM
I do think the comparisons to Steve Young are the most valid of comparisons.

The Randall Cunningham one works, as well, but not as close to Young.

You consider Young that athletic?

If so, we've got the very first RG3 comparison to a QB that actually won a Super Bowl.

milkman
03-04-2012, 09:31 PM
And before all the usual idiots chime in... I realize he was a much better college passer than Vick, etc, and have seen him play several times. But the dude is electric running the football, and will mostly likely be the fastest guy on the field when he plays. There's a legitimate chance some people could think Griffin is better than Luck at the end of next season because of the dynamic plays Griffin is capable of making. I almost bet some scouts will think that after both pro days.

I get what you're saying, and that aspect if his game will make him a dangerous weapon.

But, at the same time, you win SBs from the pocket, and I think that RGIII is smart enough to figure that out, quicker than Steve Young did, and much, much sooner that Randall Cunningham, who figured it out far too late.

Setsuna
03-04-2012, 09:31 PM
I guarantee you post one more time in this thread. :D

SHIT! Do I have to give you rep for that? You know me too well. Stop stalking me, stalker.:deevee::clap:

milkman
03-04-2012, 09:33 PM
You consider Young that athletic?

If so, we've got the very first RG3 comparison to a QB that actually won a Super Bowl.

RGIII is faster, but people forget just how athletic Steve Young was.

O.city
03-04-2012, 09:33 PM
I'd like him to use that crazy athleticism to extend plays like Rothlisberger does, keep plays alive to throw it.


It's been said on here before, but even Rodgers tends to take off and run at times. After things break down of course.

With RGIII defenses are gonna have to do him like they do Cam, spy him alot.

Fritz88
03-04-2012, 09:34 PM
I think he will be another Vince Young type player.

That is why it enrages me to even think that we would trade up to get him.

No fucking way.

O.city
03-04-2012, 09:34 PM
I think he will be another Vince Young type player.

That is why it enrages me to even think that we would trade up to get him.

No ****ing way.

Vince Young is a headcase who isn't accurate throwing the football.


Way off.

Direckshun
03-04-2012, 09:35 PM
RGIII is faster, but people forget just how athletic Steve Young was.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/HG_OCaKeiU8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Not exactly the stuff RG3 comparisons are made of.

milkman
03-04-2012, 09:36 PM
I think he will be another Vince Young type player.

That is why it enrages me to even think that we would trade up to get him.

No ****ing way.

That's like comparing an apple to an acorn.

Pablo
03-04-2012, 09:37 PM
I think he'll be just like (insert black qb from last 20 years).

Waaaaaaaay too risky.

Better stick with Cassel.

Direckshun
03-04-2012, 09:37 PM
Let me ask you (whoever "you" happens to be) this:

If RG3 was not the electric scrambler that he is, would you still trade away an entire draft for him?

Setsuna
03-04-2012, 09:39 PM
Let me ask you (whoever "you" happens to be) this:

If RG3 was not the electric scrambler that he is, would you still trade away an entire draft for him?

Is he an electric scrambler? All I've ever seen him do is throw bullets from the pocket. Are we speaking about the same person? :hmmm:

tredadda
03-04-2012, 09:40 PM
Let me ask you (whoever "you" happens to be) this:

If RG3 was not the electric scrambler that he is, would you still trade away an entire draft for him?

Maybe not. But I also wouldn't drop $100,000 on a Chevy Volt either. I would for a Ferrari. RGIII is closer to a Ferrari than Chevy Volt.

milkman
03-04-2012, 09:40 PM
Let me ask you (whoever "you" happens to be) this:

If RG3 was not the electric scrambler that he is, would you still trade away an entire draft for him?

I like RGIII because he's humble, accurate with a strong arm, but most importantly, because he's as smart as any QB to come out in years.

Yes, I'd give up a lot for him, though the idiots who keep suggesting we're talking about entire drafts for him are just putting words in our mouths, for most.

Direckshun
03-04-2012, 09:42 PM
I like RGIII because he's humble, accurate with a strong arm, but most importantly, because he's as smart as any QB to come out in years.

Yes, I'd give up a lot for him, though the idiots who keep suggesting we're talking about entire drafts for him are just putting words in our mouths, for most.

What's your trade offer for the Rams, milkman.

Give me a trade offer that beats out Dan Snyder.

SNR
03-04-2012, 09:43 PM
Let me ask you (whoever "you" happens to be) this:

If RG3 was not the electric scrambler that he is, would you still trade away an entire draft for him?Perhaps. His speed definitely dictates his game, but he's got the arm of any top-flight QB you'd see in a draft.

I said this in another thread:

Outside of Andrew Luck, RGIII has the best arm of any drafted QB since Jay Cutler.

If the spread offense worries you, then were you equally critical of Sam Bradford coming out of college?

If you weren't, then you're a racist.

Direckshun
03-04-2012, 09:44 PM
For starters:

http://nflmocks.com/files/2010/04/trade-value-chart.jpg

O.city
03-04-2012, 09:44 PM
I said this in another thread:

Outside of Andrew Luck, RGIII has the best arm of any drafted QB since Jay Cutler.

If the spread offense worries you, then were you equally critical of Sam Bradford coming out of college?

If you weren't, then you're a racist.

He has a great arm.



But the best arm since Cutler is Stafford hands down.


Stafford might have the most electric arm in the NFL right now.

Direckshun
03-04-2012, 09:45 PM
I said this in another thread:

Outside of Andrew Luck, RGIII has the best arm of any drafted QB since Jay Cutler.

If the spread offense worries you, then were you equally critical of Sam Bradford coming out of college?

If you weren't, then you're a racist.

Uhh...

I'm not sure if you followed Draft Planet in 2010, but yes. I was intensely critical of Bradford because of the same system concerns I have with RG3.

I advocated Clausen that year, not Bradford.

O.city
03-04-2012, 09:45 PM
This years 1,2,3 next years 1, 2. Far as I'm goin.

Direckshun
03-04-2012, 09:47 PM
So for starters.

The Chiefs will need to give up their first this year and next year. They'd have to give their 2nd this year for starters.

Dan Snyder is crazy enough to trade this year and next year's 1st, 2nd, and 3rd.

The only thing the Chiefs can dangle out there for the Rams is Dwayne Bowe.

You can throw Dorsey in there, too, but DT isn't that huge of a need for the Rams.

SNR
03-04-2012, 09:47 PM
Uhh...

I'm not sure if you followed Draft Planet in 2010, but yes. I was intensely critical of Bradford because of the same system concerns I have with RG3.

I advocated Clausen that year, not Bradford.Sorry. You know how I confuse you with Rams Fan all the time.

O.city
03-04-2012, 09:47 PM
However, I do think there is some merit to what Laz has been saying about a tag and trade.

Tag Carr, pray and hope you get a first for him from say the Cowboys.

This years 2 firsts, 3rd, next years 1 and 3?

milkman
03-04-2012, 09:48 PM
What's your trade offer for the Rams, milkman.

Give me a trade offer that beats out Dan Snyder.

I don't remember what the reported offer form the Skins was, though I read today that report was in error, and they weren't willing to give up that much.

The Browns are reportedly not interested in giving up their 2nd 1st rounder this year, as well.

I'd start with a 1 and 2 this year, and a 1 and a 3 next year and see where it goes from there

Direckshun
03-04-2012, 09:48 PM
This years 1,2,3 next years 1, 2. Far as I'm goin.

That's a ballsy trade.

But picks alone aren't going to do it. Any picks the Chiefs offer, the Skins will just offer the same picks. And you can bet their picks in 2013 will be higher than ours will be.

You gotta throw in Bowe.

Saccopoo
03-04-2012, 09:48 PM
Let me ask you (whoever "you" happens to be) this:

If RG3 was not the electric scrambler that he is, would you still trade away an entire draft for him?

It was his Combine interviews that has everyone excited around here not the running.

I think he's a lot like the both Tebow and Newton. He's got an energizing personality, he's coming off a remarkable college career/season, Heisman winner, very athletic, can make things happen with his legs and has a big arm.

It's almost a foregone conclusion that Luck is going to Indy. But Griffin has been projected as having a lot of the tools that has made Luck the best QB prospect since Elway, and he's going to be sitting there at #2 to a team with a pretty good young quarterback already in house. They guy can be had for the right price. It's got people excited, especially around here were it's been castoffs or mid-late rounders since 1983.

O.city
03-04-2012, 09:49 PM
I don't remember what the reported offer form the Skins was, though I read today that report was in error, and they weren't willing to give up that much.

The Browns are reportedly not interested in giving up their 2nd 1st rounder this year, as well.

I'd start with a 1 and 2 this year, and a 1 and a 3 next year and see where it goes from there

Thats about where I'd start, but wouldn't wanna go much higher.


The key would be if we could tag and trade Carr getting a first or second to throw into the deal.

Direckshun
03-04-2012, 09:49 PM
I don't remember what the reported offer form the Skins was, though I read today that report was in error, and they weren't willing to give up that much.

The Browns are reportedly not interested in giving up their 2nd 1st rounder this year, as well.

I'd start with a 1 and 2 this year, and a 1 and a 3 next year and see where it goes from there

I think we could outbid the Browns if we wanted. The Browns have drawn a line in the sand, and that can always be leapfrogged.

Dan Snyder in a bidding war, though... that is a tough, tough matchup for our front office.

Fritz88
03-04-2012, 09:49 PM
That's like comparing an apple to an acorn.

Off fields issues aside, before he killed it, I think VY had had more potential than RGIII.

O.city
03-04-2012, 09:50 PM
That's a ballsy trade.

But picks alone aren't going to do it. Any picks the Chiefs offer, the Skins will just offer the same picks. And you can bet their picks in 2013 will be higher than ours will be.

You gotta throw in Bowe.

I don't think the Rams can afford to pay Bowe without dropping some players off the roster.


Again, I'm gonna try and tag and trade carr or Bowe to see what I can get to use as a trade.

DJ's left nut
03-04-2012, 09:50 PM
God you're fast.

Quick, gif up how badly I'm going to get my ass handed to me in this thread.

I've said something similar a couple of times and didn't really need to wear asbestos underwear for it.

I think most folks realize that there's no such thing as a sure-thing NFL prospect, especially at QB. And he's absolutely an unconventional quarterback, so it's hard to know exactly how he'll translate to this level. Then again, Newton managed.

Oddly enough, the dude is short by 'prototype' standards, but nobody's really holding that against him.

Ultimately, his upside is unmatched by anyone in the league, Newton included. That's what has folks so intrigued by him. But whenever you start talking upside, the negative corollary is generally ignored; there's always risk to those 'upside' guys.

I guess the way to look at him is similar to how Hockeysfuture ranks their prospects. They give them a numerical 'upside' grade and a letter grade that comports with how likely they are to ever truly reach it.

For instance, Luck would probably be considered a 9.5A-; very high upside w/ every indication that he'll hit it. Someone like Weeden would probably be considered a 7.0A; game manager upside with very little chance he doesn't get there; Lindley would be considered an 8.0C; potentially plus quarterback with a very slim chance that he hits it. DeCastro is one of the few guys in the draft I would probably call a 10A

I look at RGIII as a 10C+; he has a chance to be something this league simply doesn't have - but the chances he gets all the way to that 10 are pretty remote.

Direckshun
03-04-2012, 09:50 PM
Once again, I don't think you can outbid Snyder with picks alone.

Snyder will just mirror our offer, since their picks will always be higher. And have I mentioned he's a crazy person?

Snyder can't match Dorsey (who the Rams don't need), and Snyder has no answer for Bowe (who the Rams would desperately want).

O.city
03-04-2012, 09:51 PM
Off fields issues aside, before he killed it, I think VY had had more potential than RGIII.

Nope. Not even close.



Young never had the arm RGIII has or the accuracy. Isn't as mobile either. He's a little bigger.

Also, Young was on a loaded Texas team.

SNR
03-04-2012, 09:52 PM
Off fields issues aside, before he killed it, I think VY had had more potential than RGIII.Vince Young was taller and had a fatter ass. That's the only measurable he had over RGIII.

milkman
03-04-2012, 09:53 PM
Off fields issues aside, before he killed it, I think VY had had more potential than RGIII.

Vince Young wasn't nearly as accurate, and never had the intelligence of RGIII.

He was a run first QB, and as mentioned before, RGIII is a passer with electric running ability.

They are not close to the same.

O.city
03-04-2012, 09:53 PM
I don't think we want to get into a bidding war with Snyder.


That said, maybe he fills that spot before the draft?

Direckshun
03-04-2012, 09:54 PM
Who pulls the trigger:

Rams say they'll give us the #2 for our 1st this year and next, this year's 2nd, and Bowe/Dorsey.

Deal? Or no deal?

We need Rams Fan in here.

O.city
03-04-2012, 09:55 PM
Bowe and Dorsey?


With all those picks?


I'd probably do it, but I don't think the Rams can or will.

noa
03-04-2012, 09:55 PM
The Rams can't afford Bowe, I don't know why you keep ignoring that.
Posted via Mobile Device

O.city
03-04-2012, 09:57 PM
I'm starting to lean towards, signing a health Manning and drafting this year, hoping to get my guy next year.


I guess I just don't have the balls to give up that much.

milkman
03-04-2012, 09:57 PM
I've said something similar a couple of times and didn't really need to wear asbestos underwear for it.

I think most folks realize that there's no such thing as a sure-thing NFL prospect, especially at QB. And he's absolutely an unconventional quarterback, so it's hard to know exactly how he'll translate to this level. Then again, Newton managed.

Oddly enough, the dude is short by 'prototype' standards, but nobody's really holding that against him.

Ultimately, his upside is unmatched by anyone in the league, Newton included. That's what has folks so intrigued by him. But whenever you start talking upside, the negative corollary is generally ignored; there's always risk to those 'upside' guys.

I guess the way to look at him is similar to how Hockeysfuture ranks their prospects. They give them a numerical 'upside' grade and a letter grade that comports with how likely they are to ever truly reach it.

For instance, Luck would probably be considered a 9.5A-; very high upside w/ every indication that he'll hit it. Someone like Weeden would probably be considered a 7.0A; game manager upside with very little chance he doesn't get there; Lindley would be considered an 8.0C; potentially plus quarterback with a very slim chance that he hits it. DeCastro is one of the few guys in the draft I would probably call a 10A

I look at RGIII as a 10C+; he has a chance to be something this league simply doesn't have - but the chances he gets all the way to that 10 are pretty remote.

The guys that bust are usually dumbasses.

The Vince Youngs, the Ryan Leafs, the JaMarcus Russell's.

They generally are guys with a sense of entitlment who really dod't have the capacity to understand how lucky they are to have the god given ability they have, and understand even less that it still requires hard work to maximize that ability.

I don't see that as an issue with RGIII.

VikesFan
03-04-2012, 10:00 PM
I thought Cam Newton was going to be a bust but I was wrong, dead wrong

DJ's left nut
03-04-2012, 10:01 PM
The only valid comparison between RGIII and Vick is that both are black and athletic.

Vick was in an offense equally as simplistic nad didn't throw the ball with near the acuracy that RGIII did in colloege, and RGIII is a passer that has the athletic ability to run when everything breaks down, whereas Vick was a run first QB.

I think the best point Direkshun made in his post has been overlooked thus far.

RGIII completed a shitload of passes in college and his Comp% looked great, certainly. But like Direkshun pointed out, a ton of those came from RGIII breaking down coverage through the threat of his legs.

We saw him make some nice passes this year, and I'm not worried about his ability to read defenses. However, we didn't really see him throwing into a lot of small windows this season or last. For the most part he was able to use his legs to break the secondary down and throw to very wide open guys.

Now he hit 'em. And there's nothing he can do to make the defensive backs hang with his guys. At the same time, there just isn't a lot of film out there of him dropping one over a zone LBer, under a safety and just beyond the reach of a closing CB. The film will show a strong arm firing the ball into wide open windows.

So in other words, we won't know if he can hit a lot of those tiny NFL windows (more accurately, portholes) until he does it. And that's the major risk with RGIII, IMO. Granted, he can still break down defenses with his legs, but then you start to get into those 'risky' offenses where you're going to get him hit a little more, get him running a little more, etc... An offense where he isn't asked to be a passer that can run, but rather one where he's going to be a hybrid type; a Cunningham. As opposed to Young, who is the perfect example of an pinpoint passer with athletic ability.

Can he hit those windows and be Steve Young or will he need all that space and be Randall Cunningham? It's just hard to know, hence the risk.

DJ's left nut
03-04-2012, 10:05 PM
Who pulls the trigger:

Rams say they'll give us the #2 for our 1st this year and next, this year's 2nd, and Bowe/Dorsey.

Deal? Or no deal?

We need Rams Fan in here.

Done in a heartbeat.

Go after Mike Wallace or Colsten w/ the cap space you clear by losing Bowe and Dorsey, put Bailey in at Dorsey's slot and sign Soliai.

The problem is that the Rams don't have near the cap space to make that deal. They probably couldn't take on Bowe or Dorsey, let alone both.

O.city
03-04-2012, 10:07 PM
Maybe you could keep Bowe, insert Carr and make that deal?

Dante84
03-04-2012, 10:07 PM
1. The kid can make any NFL throw, and is one of the most accurate passers I've ever seen.... ever. NFL or college.

2. He is probably the most intelligent QB in this class, including Luck. Not sure what the Wonderlic scores are, but he graduated in 3.5 years, I believe... with 2 majors.* (my memory, not necessarily fact).

3. The only....ONLY.... knock on him that I can see is his durability. It wasn't an issue in college. However, many times when he was hit, he lingered on the ground a little longer than you like. NFL hits will be much harder, and much faster. The question will be how he can handle these hits.

Dr. Gigglepants
03-04-2012, 10:07 PM
I'm starting to lean towards, signing a health Manning and drafting this year, hoping to get my guy next year.


I guess I just don't have the balls to give up that much.

We do that and there's a good chance we're picking in the 20's and in a worse position than this year to grab a top qb. Might as well get Manning and take a Weeden or Lindley later this year as they seem to be high upside guys (from the CP braintrust). Give them as much time as possible to learn behind the master.

Direckshun
03-04-2012, 10:08 PM
Done in a heartbeat.

Go after Mike Wallace or Colsten w/ the cap space you clear by losing Bowe and Dorsey, put Bailey in at Dorsey's slot and sign Soliai.

The problem is that the Rams don't have near the cap space to make that deal. They probably couldn't take on Bowe or Dorsey, let alone both.

If that's the case, than we're fucked.

We can't make any bargain to the Rams involving only draft picks that Dan Snyder can't simply mirror with better placed picks.

Fritz88
03-04-2012, 10:14 PM
Who pulls the trigger:

Rams say they'll give us the #2 for our 1st this year and next, this year's 2nd, and Bowe/Dorsey.

Deal? Or no deal?

We need Rams Fan in here.

Fuck no. Fuck fucking no.

For Luck, Yes. For RGIII, Fuck fucking no.

Saccopoo
03-04-2012, 10:17 PM
That's a ballsy trade.

But picks alone aren't going to do it. Any picks the Chiefs offer, the Skins will just offer the same picks. And you can bet their picks in 2013 will be higher than ours will be.

You gotta throw in Bowe.

It's going to be a combination of picks and player(s). The Rams are going to need a proven commodity in addition to picks. They've been burned recently on just picks.

The Chiefs are going to have to give up a younger guy who has played decently.

The ones that make the most sense are, in order:

1. Glenn Dorsey
- He's in the final year of his contract and finally had a decent season. The Rams defensive tackles suck, Dorsey would finally be able to move back inside and Bailey showed last season that he could play. It works for both teams (to a certain degree).

2. Jon Baldwin
- Depending upon what they do with Bowe and the recovery of Moeaki, Baldwin is somewhat of a luxury on this roster.

3. Tag Bowe or Carr.
- Rams would like either as they don't have a top flight guy at either position.

4. Brandon Albert
- Like Dorsey, he's in the final year of his contract and has under-performed for his draft status. However, he did have a decent season in 2011 and the Rams would like a solid contributor of the left side of their line, moving Saffold over to RT and Smith into guard (provided he can fully recover from the concussion issue). Problem with this is that the Chiefs don't have any tackle depth and would effectively have to dip back into free agency or start over again with a rookie in the 2012 draft. Not the best situation for the Chiefs.

1 and a 3 this year, a 1 next year and a player who can immediately help the Rams.

At least that's how I initially see this getting done.

O.city
03-04-2012, 10:17 PM
If that's the case, than we're ****ed.

We can't make any bargain to the Rams involving only draft picks that Dan Snyder can't simply mirror with better placed picks.

I think Rams fan talked about it in one of these threads, but the Rams are pretty much maxed out contract wise.


It's gonna hvae to be draft picks. I don't see how we get above Snyder without another 1 or 2 rounder this yera.

Saccopoo
03-04-2012, 10:18 PM
Uhh...

I'm not sure if you followed Draft Planet in 2010, but yes. I was intensely critical of Bradford because of the same system concerns I have with RG3.

I advocated Clausen that year, not Bradford.

You should be banned from any draft conversations because of that.

Reaper16
03-04-2012, 10:19 PM
RGIII is more advanced as a college QB than Cam was as a college QB. Cam's offense was even simpler, and he was totally run-first.

O.city
03-04-2012, 10:22 PM
It's exciting to think that the Chiefs are actually thinking about making this move. Or the move for Manning.



Or the move away from Cassel.


If all this talk happens and Cassel trots out as the starter next year, I'm ............well I dunno what I'm

Bewbies
03-04-2012, 10:27 PM
The guy won at fucking Baylor.

VikesFan
03-04-2012, 10:29 PM
I doubt Robert will be a bust but I would be suprised if he is

Chief Roundup
03-04-2012, 10:31 PM
Off fields issues aside, before he killed it, I think VY had had more potential than RGIII.

Vince Young is one of if not the dumbest QB out there. Dont remember his ridiculously bad Wonderlic score.

DTLB58
03-04-2012, 10:34 PM
I don't understand any trade scenarios to get RGIII that includes trading away any offensive weapons. What does it do any good to get a Franchise QB but take away his targets?

O.city
03-04-2012, 10:35 PM
Based on picks alone, we can't beat the Skins or the Browns.

aturnis
03-04-2012, 10:47 PM
I'm not always in favor of playing it safe.

I try to play it smart.

You'd think that for a guy who tries to "play it smart", writes articles for a Chiefs blog, and usually does some homework before forming an opinion, you'd have done some homework on RG3.

Dude, was his high school valedictorian, finished a degree in political science in 3 yrs., and is working on a masters in communications or some shit. Hopes to be a lawyer someday. Raised by military parents, Air Force. The smart branch of the military.

After meeting with Luck and RG3, Pioli is quoted as saying "Forget drafting one of these guys, I wish my daughter to marry one of them. "

Pioli thinks so highly of both Luck and RG3, that he'd actually give one of them his consent to stick his penis in his daughter.

Munson
03-04-2012, 10:49 PM
Who pulls the trigger:

Rams say they'll give us the #2 for our 1st this year and next, this year's 2nd, and Bowe/Dorsey.

Deal? Or no deal?

We need Rams Fan in here.

I'd make that deal in a heart beat. It would suck not to have a 1st round pick next year, but that's the price you pay for never having drafted your own franchise QB.

Bump
03-04-2012, 10:49 PM
He was accepted into Law school after 3 years in college where he got a degree in political science and was finishing a masters degree in it this year.


I'd say he's pretty intelligent.

ya....name any white QB's that did that

Dude is gonna win a Superbowl or 2, or 3...

He's gonna a superstar, he won't have as good as a rookie season as Cam but he is going to eventually be better.

tredadda
03-04-2012, 10:57 PM
You'd think that for a guy who tries to "play it smart", writes articles for a Chiefs blog, and usually does some homework before forming an opinion, you'd have done some homework on RG3.

Dude, was his high school valedictorian, finished a degree in political science in 3 yrs., and is working on a masters in communications or some shit. Hopes to be a lawyer someday. Raised by military parents, Air Force. The smart branch of the military.

After meeting with Luck and RG3, Pioli is quoted as saying "Forget drafting one of these guys, I wish my daughter to marry one of them. "

Pioli thinks so highly of both Luck and RG3, that he'd actually give one of them his consent to stick his penis in his daughter.

His parents were both Army not Air Force.

Nightfyre
03-04-2012, 10:57 PM
Question: Why would you post this thread without first doing any research?

Saccopoo
03-04-2012, 10:58 PM
ya....name any white QB's that did that

Dude is gonna win a Superbowl or 2, or 3...

He's gonna a superstar, he won't have as good as a rookie season as Cam but he is going to eventually be better.

Christian Ponder from last year.

Direckshun
03-04-2012, 11:02 PM
You'd think that for a guy who tries to "play it smart", writes articles for a Chiefs blog, and usually does some homework before forming an opinion, you'd have done some homework on RG3.

To be fair, I have no obligation to delve too deeply into shit when I'm posting on CP.

I've watched a ton of RG3's tape. I thought he was going to fall to the teens when the 2011 season began!

But once it became abundantly clear he was going to be #2 off the board, my research stopped with his game tape.

So I appreciate input like this:

Dude, was his high school valedictorian, finished a degree in political science in 3 yrs., and is working on a masters in communications or some shit. Hopes to be a lawyer someday. Raised by military parents, Air Force. The smart branch of the military.

After meeting with Luck and RG3, Pioli is quoted as saying "Forget drafting one of these guys, I wish my daughter to marry one of them. "

Pioli thinks so highly of both Luck and RG3, that he'd actually give one of them his consent to stick his penis in his daughter.

Sounds like a Pioli guy, to be honest with you.

Except I just don't think there's enough of a Super Bowl precedent for QBs like him.

Direckshun
03-04-2012, 11:02 PM
Christian Ponder from last year.

Steve Young from two decades ago.

Bowser
03-04-2012, 11:09 PM
Seriously, if a coaching staff can adapt their offenses to put Tim Tebow into a position to win, then coaching staffs would squeee in joy to be able to design plays for a guy that has elventy billion times more ability and/or potential.

A staff would have to work hard to make a guy with so much talent "bust".

Nightfyre
03-04-2012, 11:10 PM
There are three reasons I think RG3 will not bust:

1) He was the hardest working person on the Baylor team according to coaches. That was how he lead, by example.
2) He is probably the smartest quarterback in this draft.
3) He is the most physically talented player in this draft.

People who are talented, hard-working and smart can do anything they put their mind to. The two caveats I will give are coaching and injury. And a coach would be stupid not to redesign their offense around their QBs capabilities.

KCrockaholic
03-04-2012, 11:11 PM
There are three reasons I think RG3 will not bust:

1) He was the hardest working person on the Baylor team according to coaches. That was how he lead, by example.
2) He is probably the smartest quarterback in this draft.
3) He is the most physically talented player in this draft.

People who are talented, hard-working and smart can do anything they put their mind to. The two caveats I will give are coaching and injury. And a coach would be stupid not to redesign their offense around their QBs capabilities.

http://a323.yahoofs.com/ymg/ept_sports_ncaaf_experts__50/ept_sports_ncaaf_experts-784314684-1299528322.jpg?ymC6sqEDqJEPH2qr

Nightfyre
03-04-2012, 11:15 PM
http://a323.yahoofs.com/ymg/ept_sports_ncaaf_experts__50/ept_sports_ncaaf_experts-784314684-1299528322.jpg?ymC6sqEDqJEPH2qr

You won't get any argument from me that Andrew Luck is also in the 95th percentile of QB smarts. I suspect RG3 is smarter. I can't prove that, however.

Bugeater
03-04-2012, 11:17 PM
I don't understand any trade scenarios to get RGIII that includes trading away any offensive weapons. What does it do any good to get a Franchise QB but take away his targets?
Targets don't win Super Bowls.

KCrockaholic
03-04-2012, 11:18 PM
You won't get any argument from me that Andrew Luck is also in the 95th percentile of QB smarts. I suspect RG3 is smarter. I can't prove that, however.

I just figured that comment was quite a stretch when we're talking about a class with Andrew Luck in it. But ok.

L.A. Chieffan
03-04-2012, 11:39 PM
He's a better passer than vick but is he more durable?

aturnis
03-04-2012, 11:42 PM
His parents were both Army not Air Force.

You're right, my bad. Both Army Sergeants.

aturnis
03-04-2012, 11:46 PM
Also, to show his maturity, even as a 17 yr. old.

Griffin graduated from high school a semester early and began attending. Baylor in the spring 2008 semester at 17 years old. He graduated with a 3.67 GPA in political science and is currently studying for a Masters in Communication.

Tribal Warfare
03-04-2012, 11:51 PM
Cry my a river, pickle dick.

RG3 is more Vick than Newton.

No he's more Steve Young than Vick, he's just 12 credits short in getting his Masters degree in Political Science

aturnis
03-04-2012, 11:51 PM
So I appreciate input like this


I know you do. I'd actually appreciate seems ng how the new found information we've shoved down your throat changes your assessment of RG3, honestly. I know you aren't one to jump to an impulse opinion, so take a few days and really think it over. Would really like to see it though...

aturnis
03-04-2012, 11:57 PM
He's a better passer than vick but is he more durable?

He doesn't need to be if he's smart enough to make smart decisions and not always put his body on the line like Michael "strong back weak mind" Vick.

Hell, RG3 is explosive, but I'd rather see him throw the ball away on 3rd & 10 from our own 20 in the 1st quarter when under pressure than to see him try to make something happen and risk injury in an unimportant situation.

Nightfyre
03-05-2012, 12:00 AM
That is one legit knock on RG3. He tries to make too many plays and takes too many hits. Its certainly coachable, however.

L.A. Chieffan
03-05-2012, 12:02 AM
He doesn't need to be if he's smart enough to make smart decisions and not always put his body on the line like Michael "strong back weak mind" Vick.

Hell, RG3 is explosive, but I'd rather see him throw the ball away on 3rd & 10 from our own 20 in the 1st quarter when under pressure than to see him try to make something happen and risk injury in an unimportant situation.

None of that matters when James Harrison breaks him in half off the blind side.

I'd say being durable is pretty important, especially for an "explosive " qb

Disgruntled_Parent via SR's IP in GA
03-05-2012, 12:11 AM
None of that matters when James Harrison breaks him in half off the blind side.

I'd say being durable is pretty important, especially for an "explosive " qb

That's got damned right.

WhiteWhale
03-05-2012, 03:19 AM
My opinion: A guy with the combination of natural talent, work ethic, and maturity of RGIII separates him from most of the guys he's being compared to in this thread.

Vick had insane natural talent. His work ethic and maturity? Well... not so much.

Vince Young? Please. Young has the intelligence and maturity of a 14 year old.

Work ethic is under-rated around here. Work ethic can't overcome a lack of talent, but when you combine great talent with a great work ethic you usually end up with a great player.

I think RGIII will be fine if he can stay healthy.

Also... the guy is 6-2 and over 220. He's not small.

the Talking Can
03-05-2012, 04:41 AM
# of college QBs not good enough for Chiefsplanet = all of them

blaise
03-05-2012, 05:25 AM
I don't think he busts, but I think it's probable that he misses a lot of games due to injury. He seems like he leaves himself open to hits when he runs. When I watch Cam Newton run I feel like he knows when to get down, or put himself in a position not to take a big shot. I don't feel that way with RGIII.

Tuckdaddy
03-05-2012, 06:12 AM
RG3 is sharp as a razor and has shown all around QB skills. Will he be good? Only time will tell like all other picks but he by no means does not look extremely good.

mikey23545
03-05-2012, 07:17 AM
Why are people so concerned with a bust? Clearly what we have been doing for all these years, using retread QBs isn't working either. Atleast it would bring some excitement and a chance to be better. Of course we could just draft some OL and DL in the upcoming draft, trot Matt Cassel out and go 7-9 or 8-8 for the next 2 years. That has always been so much fun.

any draft pick can bust

I still think the first coaching staff they taught by makes a huge difference ... especially with QB's.

Of course any one draft pick can bust...Trade away a couple of years of draft picks for one guy and your talking about a whole different thing.

Fat Elvis
03-05-2012, 07:40 AM
Also, to show his maturity, even as a 17 yr. old.

Oh great, a QB that wasn't able to graduate with his high school class. You want to give up draft picks for that type of player?

....

Setsuna
03-05-2012, 07:41 AM
The answer is....all of you, except the smart people, want Stanzi to be the franchise QB. /thread

boogblaster
03-05-2012, 08:42 AM
I think hes a bust too .. time will tell ......

Okie_Apparition
03-05-2012, 08:54 AM
Cassel-Gueterez(?)-Palko
Pioli reeks of rookie QB development potential
He should risk several draft picks

O.city
03-05-2012, 08:56 AM
Another question for you guys.


Say you go get RGIII, do you make him the day 1 starter? Or keep Cassel around for a little while?

DJ's left nut
03-05-2012, 09:04 AM
Another question for you guys.


Say you go get RGIII, do you make him the day 1 starter? Or keep Cassel around for a little while?

The respective offenses would be so different for the 2 QBs that I don't see any utility in keeping RGIII behind Cassel to learn the ropes for awhile. Hell, I'm not sure there'd be any utility in keeping him behind Manning.

He's a guy that's only going to learn by playing because there's just no form of observation that can prepare him for what he'd be doing. If you're a guy like Tannehill that is going to have to win conventionally, you can learn a lot by watching a veteran do just that; but playing like that would underutilize Griffin and just set him back a bit.

If you draft RGIII, he's your starter on day 1, IMO.

Dayze
03-05-2012, 09:06 AM
you know who won't bust? a right tackle.









:D

DJ's left nut
03-05-2012, 09:14 AM
you know who won't bust? a right tackle.

:D

David DeCastro - just about the only sure thing in this draft.

Inspector
03-05-2012, 09:19 AM
From what I've seen, when it comes to comparing RG3 to Vick....seems to me that Vick is a runner who can throw where RG3 is a passer who can run.

Yeah, simplified, I know. But I am a simpleton after all.

SNR
03-05-2012, 09:27 AM
David DeCastro - just about the only sure thing in this draft.Wait til you see the brand new David DeCastro! Why this sucker is practically unbustable! He won't bust and he can't bust. Take a look at how he's designed, I got these compartments installed all around his frame ya see? Let's say one of them busts, right? Bam. Huge hole in his game... gets too many holding penalties or whatever. Any other offensive guard would be a bust, but nope, not David DeCastro. He's got 16 of these compartments all around his frame, and up to four can bust and he'll still be good to go!

Ya see, he can't bust. He won't bust! He's the safest thing ya ever saw. Throw him in the middle of an ice field at top speed and he won't bust. I guarantee you!

jd1020
03-05-2012, 10:48 AM
What is your definition of bust?

Is it failing to live up to the hype of some people making you out to be a better prospect than the "best prospect since Manning/Elway?"

If so, then ya he probably busts.

Okie_Apparition
03-05-2012, 11:05 AM
RGIII busting potential rises with the Browns compared to the Redskins
Shanahan & QBs since he inherited Elway is nothing glowing
QBs need some molding & structure to be successful