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Direckshun
04-13-2012, 11:09 AM
Two pronged question:

(1.) Would you trade our pick for both of the Pats 1st round picks, straight up?

They won't trade up, but if they ever wanted to, this is the year to do it with all the premier passrushers and the fact they are going to have lost both of their best pass rushers by the time the draft rolls in.

#11 pick: 1250 points
#27 & #31: 1280 points

If you would, then:

(2.) Imagine the draft fell like it does in WF's latest mock (http://www.walterfootball.com/draft2012.php).

Who are your first three picks? (Or more, if you so choose.)

1a. DE Devon Still, Penn State
1b. QB Brandon Weeden, Oklahoma State
2. CB Alfonzo Dennard, Nebraska
3. NT Josh Chapman, Alabama
4. RB Vick Ballard, Mississippi State
5. OLB Bruce Irvin, West Virginia
6. C David Molk, Michigan

QB: Weeden, Quinn, Stanzi
RB: Charles, Hillis, McCluster, Ballard
FB: Bannon

WR: Bowe, Baldwin, Breaston, Copper, McCluster
TE: Moeaki, Boss, Maneri

LT: Albert, Mims
LG: Lilja, Harris
C: Hudson, Molk
RG: Asamoah, Harris
RT: Winston, Mims

DE: Dorsey, Bailey
NT: Chapman, Gordon, Powe
DE: Jackson, Still

OLB: Hali, Sheffield
ILB: Belcher, Siler
ILB: Johnson, Siler
OLB: Houston, Irvin

CB: Flowers, Routt, Arenas, Dennard, Daniels, Brown
S: Berry, Lewis, McGraw, Washington

2013 roster (assuming we go something like ILB and FS with our first two picks):

QB: Weeden, Quinn, Stanzi
RB: Charles, Ballard, McCluster
FB: Bannon

WR: Bowe, Baldwin, Breaston, Copper, McCluster
TE: Moeaki, Boss, Maneri

LT: Albert, Mims
LG: Hudson, Harris
C: Molk, Harris
RG: Asamoah, Harris
RT: Winston, Mims

DE: Still, Bailey
NT: Chapman, Powe
DE: Jackson, Bailey

OLB: Hali, Sheffield
ILB: 1st, Siler
ILB: Johnson, Siler
OLB: Houston, Irvin

CB: Flowers, Dennard, Arenas, Brown, Daniels
S: Berry, Lewis, 2nd

BigMeatballDave
04-13-2012, 11:17 AM
Weeden in the 1st?

Ugh.

Direckshun
04-13-2012, 11:18 AM
Weeden in the 1st?

Ugh.

LMAO

YayMike
04-13-2012, 11:24 AM
I think if we did this trade I'd go Konz and Still based on this mock.

Frosty
04-13-2012, 11:27 AM
Gah! If it fell that way, I'm not so sure I wouldn't be tempted to take Fleener and Harrison Smith at 27 and 31 and then Osweiller or Cousins at #44. The rest of the mock is pretty good.

Pestilence
04-13-2012, 11:29 AM
If we did that....then I would start putting out feelers for teams looking to trade back into their 1st round. I would trade out of the 1st for their 1st next year.

DJ's left nut
04-13-2012, 11:59 AM
When I first read it I thought "sure, why not?"

Then I start seeing things like "I'd take Fleener and Harrison Smith" or "Still and Weeden" and decided - !@#$ no.

It's really no different than trading that 1st for 2 seconds at that point because that's a hell of a lot of 2nd round talent that we're reaching badly for if we take them at the end of the 1st.

Mr. Arrowhead
04-13-2012, 12:01 PM
Just stop it with this Weeden bullshit

Frosty
04-13-2012, 12:27 PM
When I first read it I thought "sure, why not?"

Then I start seeing things like "I'd take Fleener and Harrison Smith" or "Still and Weeden" and decided - !@#$ no.

It's really no different than trading that 1st for 2 seconds at that point because that's a hell of a lot of 2nd round talent that we're reaching badly for if we take them at the end of the 1st.

Well, ideally, you would parlay at least one of those picks into another 2nd and possible first next year like Pest mentioned. #11 is no man's land for the Chiefs this year. Picking up future picks and/or more 2nds would be valuable, IMO.

I spaced on the Chiefs picking up Boss, so would change my picks to Perry and Smith, assuming I couldn't trade down further. WF has Smith going at #35, so taking him at #31 isn't much of a reach. Since we are picking based on the WF mock, it seems reasonable.

Pestilence
04-13-2012, 12:28 PM
If we have those picks.......I'm going with this.

27. Shea McClellin, DE/OLB, Boise State
31. Devon Still, DE/DT, Penn State
44. Kevin Zeitler, G, Wisconsin
74. Josh Chapman, NT, Alabama
107. George Iloka, S, Boise State
146. Matt Reynolds, OT, BYU
182. David Molk, C, Michigan

DJ's left nut
04-13-2012, 12:32 PM
Well, ideally, you would parlay at least one of those picks into another 2nd and possible first next year like Pest mentioned. #11 is no man's land for the Chiefs this year. Picking up future picks and/or more 2nds would be valuable, IMO.

I spaced on the Chiefs picking up Boss, so would change my picks to Perry and Smith, assuming I couldn't trade down further. WF has Smith going at #35, so taking him at #31 isn't much of a reach. Since we are picking based on the WF mock, it seems reasonable.

But that's the thing; the back half of the first is just slammed full of conventional '2nd round' talent.

I just don't see this is a very deep draft. There are probably 8-10 really strong picks up at the top, then a handful of great mid-first picks (guys like Jenkins with serious talent but flags or DeCastro with premier ability at a less valuable position).

But from about 20-50, I just don't see a drop of separation between them. So unless I could ave a trade lined up where I immediately flip those picks for 1sts next year or something, I'm just not inclined to make the deal.

Frosty
04-13-2012, 01:07 PM
To me, the real value in this draft is in the 2nd and 3rd rounds. Instead of reaching for a guard, 3-4 end or ILB, I would like to convert that #11 pick to as many picks in those rounds that I could get. I doubt it's possible but I can dream.

Chocolate Hog
04-13-2012, 01:16 PM
What's with the Weeden obsession Dick?

Hog Farmer
04-13-2012, 01:22 PM
I'd do this in a heart beat if we could get Luck and RGIII ! You just never know. They could fall to us.



Weeden:drool:

Direckshun
04-13-2012, 01:23 PM
What's with the Weeden obsession Dick?

I've written extensively about Weeden.

I think he is this franchise's best chance at a franchise QB in the 2012 draft.

DJ's left nut
04-13-2012, 01:29 PM
I've written extensively about Weeden.

I think he is this franchise's best chance at a franchise QB in the 2012 draft.

For a couple years.

I'm not on the '!@#$ Weeden" bandwagon with guys like SNR and TTC; but I can't justify using anything higher than a 3rd on him and that's not gonna get it done.

Sure, he looked good in College - he's a grown ass man playing against boys. He damn well should look good against them; he's far more physically mature than most of them. People keep pointing to his age when discussing his long-term viability and his upside, but the real issue is how his age should color his performance. This kid is a decade older than some of his opponents. Of course he's going to look better than they are; but he doesn't get to play against many teenagers in the NFL...

He also played in that damn Air Raid offense so I don't buy this "ready to play right away" stuff.

There are just too many questions around him and not enough long-term benefit for me to be excited about using a pick that could go towards the next Brandon Flowers.

KurtCobain
04-13-2012, 01:36 PM
The door to draft planet seems to be coming pod its hinges.

SNR
04-13-2012, 01:38 PM
Direckshun, I posted this scenario in another thread. What do you think about it? Is there even a remote chance of this trade happening? Would you do it?

Detroit trades their 1.23, 2.22 and 5.23 for Kansas City's 1.11 in order to jump ahead of Arizona and draft Riley Reiff, rather than settle at the bottom of the first round and possibly miss out on the chance to take someone at least with the caliber of Jonathan Martin.

The draft value points wind up short changing us a little bit, but this is a case where I think we'll take that just so we can get a better stab at a player we really want. At 11 we'll pretty much be picking from the beginning of the next tier of talent. At 23 we'd be picking from the end of that tier, with the very likely scenario that someone we really like drops all the way.

Devon Still, Dont'a Hightower, Peter Konz, Stephon Gilmore are all players available at that choice according to Walter Football. I imagine that one or two from this group will also be available:

David DeCastro
Whitney Mercilus
Dre Kirkpatrick
Mark Barron
Michael Brockers (very unlikely)
Luke Kuechly (very unlikely)

Orrr..... If Miami passes on him at 8 like you say...

Ryan Tannehill
:hmmm:

SNR
04-13-2012, 01:40 PM
For a couple years.

I'm not on the '!@#$ Weeden" bandwagon with guys like SNR and TTC; but I can't justify using anything higher than a 3rd on him and that's not gonna get it done.

Sure, he looked good in College - he's a grown ass man playing against boys. He damn well should look good against them; he's far more physically mature than most of them. People keep pointing to his age when discussing his long-term viability and his upside, but the real issue is how his age should color his performance. This kid is a decade older than some of his opponents. Of course he's going to look better than they are; but he doesn't get to play against many teenagers in the NFL...

He also played in that damn Air Raid offense so I don't buy this "ready to play right away" stuff.

There are just too many questions around him and not enough long-term benefit for me to be excited about using a pick that could go towards the next Brandon Flowers.Those are my exact qualms about Weeden. Nothing more, nothing less.

Welcome to the "Fuck Weeden" bandwagon!

Direckshun
04-13-2012, 01:43 PM
Direckshun, I posted this scenario in another thread. What do you think about it? Is there even a remote chance of this trade happening? Would you do it?

Detroit trades their 1.23, 2.22 and 5.23 for Kansas City's 1.11 in order to jump ahead of Arizona and draft Riley Reiff, rather than settle at the bottom of the first round and possibly miss out on the chance to take someone at least with the caliber of Jonathan Martin.

The draft value points wind up short changing us a little bit, but this is a case where I think we'll take that just so we can get a better stab at a player we really want. At 11 we'll pretty much be picking from the beginning of the next tier of talent. At 23 we'd be picking from the end of that tier, with the very likely scenario that someone we really like drops all the way.

Devon Still, Dont'a Hightower, Peter Konz, Stephon Gilmore are all players available at that choice according to Walter Football. I imagine that one or two from this group will also be available:

David DeCastro
Whitney Mercilus
Dre Kirkpatrick
Mark Barron
Michael Brockers (very unlikely)
Luke Kuechly (very unlikely)

Orrr..... If Miami passes on him at 8 like you say...

Ryan Tannehill
:hmmm:

I'd do that in a heartbeat.

I'd even be okay with picking Tannehill there.

I've mentioned Detroit as a potential trading partner before -- but I was told this was unlikely due to us blowing the whistle on them a season ago.

Pestilence
04-13-2012, 01:45 PM
If Detroit wants Reiff....wouldn't they need to jump in front of Buffalo to get him?

SNR
04-13-2012, 01:46 PM
I'd do that in a heartbeat.

I'd even be okay with picking Tannehill there.

I've mentioned Detroit as a potential trading partner before -- but I was told this was unlikely due to us blowing the whistle on them a season ago.Hell, in this scenario we're giving them a discount on the trade. That should be enough to smooth out any rough feelings.

the Talking Can
04-13-2012, 01:47 PM
i'd make that trade in a heart beat

SNR
04-13-2012, 01:50 PM
If Detroit wants Reiff....wouldn't they need to jump in front of Buffalo to get him?Even better if Buffalo takes Reiff. Detroit will be hard-pressed to find a future LT of the quality of Martin anywhere else.

Another possibility is for them to grab Kuechly before Seattle does. The Lions seem to be content with Jeff Backus even though he's getting pretty old and is just as shitty as he's ever been.

DJ's left nut
04-13-2012, 01:52 PM
If Detroit wants Reiff....wouldn't they need to jump in front of Buffalo to get him?

Not if Ingram or Coples slip, IMO.

I'd be shocked if Buffalo doesn't go with pass-rusher.

If all we're getting is a 2nd and a throw-in, I'd be disinclined to drop much further than 18-20.

I'd tell them to keep the 5th and try to get a 2nd or 3rd next year (having no idea what kind of value that would work out on a draft chart that is likely a little obsolete right now).

The problem with that trade is mostly that the 2nd rounder isn't that great either. If you could get a 2nd rounder in the 8-10 range, sure, but 2.23 is right around where you fall into that morass of 'who gives a shit?' lottery tickets in this draft, IMO.

Pestilence
04-13-2012, 01:54 PM
Not if Ingram or Coples slip, IMO.

I'd be shocked if Buffalo doesn't go with pass-rusher.

If all we're getting is a 2nd and a throw-in, I'd be disinclined to drop much further than 18-20.

I'd tell them to keep the 5th and try to get a 2nd or 3rd next year (having no idea what kind of value that would work out on a draft chart that is likely a little obsolete right now).

The problem with that trade is mostly that the 2nd rounder isn't that great either. If you could get a 2nd rounder in the 8-10 range, sure, but 2.23 is right around where you fall into that morass of 'who gives a shit?' lottery tickets in this draft, IMO.

Buffalo is going to grab a DE after they just threw $150 million at Super Mario and Mark Anderson?

DJ's left nut
04-13-2012, 01:55 PM
Buffalo is going to grab a DE after they just threw $150 million at Super Mario and Mark Anderson?

I am retarded.

I forgot all about Mario Williams (and didn't care about Anderson; flash in the pan that's going to be cut by 2014 for not living up to his inflated deal, IMO).

So yeah - this is why you would all be well served to never pay attention to me.

the Talking Can
04-13-2012, 02:18 PM
i'd make that trade in a heart beat

actually, looking at the draft, not sure i'd want to drop that far...really depends on who drops

DJ's left nut
04-13-2012, 02:33 PM
actually, looking at the draft, not sure i'd want to drop that far...really depends on who drops

Yeup.

These trades look good at first blush, but when you start to look at where players are projected to go, a lot of them put us right on the back side of a massive talent plunge.

That's what was so great about that CP mock-draft; you really got a good feel for where the talent dropoffs came in.

the Talking Can
04-13-2012, 02:36 PM
Yeup.

These trades look good at first blush, but when you start to look at where players are projected to go, a lot of them put us right on the back side of a massive talent plunge.

That's what was so great about that CP mock-draft; you really got a good feel for where the talent dropoffs came in.

i'd almost rather have a 3rd, in a weird way....then you could grab Chapman and/or Crick, and Taylor (safety) or maybe even a RB that slipped

Direckshun
04-13-2012, 02:45 PM
Direckshun, I posted this scenario in another thread. What do you think about it? Is there even a remote chance of this trade happening? Would you do it?

Detroit trades their 1.23, 2.22 and 5.23 for Kansas City's 1.11 in order to jump ahead of Arizona and draft Riley Reiff, rather than settle at the bottom of the first round and possibly miss out on the chance to take someone at least with the caliber of Jonathan Martin.

The draft value points wind up short changing us a little bit, but this is a case where I think we'll take that just so we can get a better stab at a player we really want. At 11 we'll pretty much be picking from the beginning of the next tier of talent. At 23 we'd be picking from the end of that tier, with the very likely scenario that someone we really like drops all the way.

Devon Still, Dont'a Hightower, Peter Konz, Stephon Gilmore are all players available at that choice according to Walter Football. I imagine that one or two from this group will also be available:

David DeCastro
Whitney Mercilus
Dre Kirkpatrick
Mark Barron
Michael Brockers (very unlikely)
Luke Kuechly (very unlikely)

Orrr..... If Miami passes on him at 8 like you say...

Ryan Tannehill
:hmmm:

Playing with this scenario:

1. DE Devon Still, Penn State (I know...)
2a. QB Brandon Weeden, Oklahoma State (I KNOW.)
2b. FS Brandon Taylor, LSU
3. NT Josh Chapman, Alabama
4. RB Vick Ballard, Mississippi State
5a. OLB Bruce Irvin, West Virginia
5b. CB Asa Jackson, Cali Poly
6. C David Molk, Michigan

My draft doesn't really change too much from the scenario in the OP.

Mr. Laz
04-13-2012, 02:46 PM
If we take Weeden in round 1 i'm going to repeatedly kick Directshun in the scrotum.

Direckshun
04-13-2012, 02:51 PM
If we take Weeden in round 1 i'm going to repeatedly kick Directshun in the scrotum.

LOL

I figure I'll deserve it.

I get to kick you in the nuts if Weeden hoists the Lamar Hunt trophy.

the Talking Can
04-13-2012, 02:54 PM
i will weep if we draft a QB who went to high school with Cassel

Mr. Laz
04-13-2012, 03:01 PM
I get to kick you in the nuts if Weeden hoists the Lamar Hunt trophy.

deal


worth it

DeezNutz
04-13-2012, 03:03 PM
Stay where we're at unless we get a trade involving a first in '13.

AustinChief
04-13-2012, 03:18 PM
1a. DE Devon Still, Penn State
1b. QB Brandon Weeden, Oklahoma State
2. CB Alfonzo Dennard, Nebraska
3. NT Josh Chapman, Alabama
4. RB Vick Ballard, Mississippi State
5. OLB Bruce Irvin, West Virginia
6. C David Molk, Michigan


Now you are just doing it to piss me off. Molk goes in the 3rd or even 4th round if he slips. 6th round is just stupid.

Oh and why does everyone here like Josh Chapman so much? He and Mike Martin are almost identical in size but Martin is stronger and FAR FAR FAR more athletic. Neither is the best fit for us though (both fit 1 gap better).

Dave Lane
04-13-2012, 03:45 PM
I've written extensively about Weeden.

I think he is this franchise's best chance at a franchise QB in the 2012 draft.

I agree. I think he could start mid way his first year. I don't think he needs three years to develop, at his age he's already ready to go.

Count Zarth
04-13-2012, 04:04 PM
In a heartbeat.

That would be great value for us because we can't really take a superstar at #11 this year.

We could get a new G and a new LB at those spots.

philfree
04-13-2012, 05:23 PM
I'd take Doug Martin with one of those 1st rounders.

Nightfyre
04-13-2012, 08:40 PM
I agree. I think he could start mid way his first year. I don't think he needs three years to develop, at his age he's already ready to go.

Yeah, apart from the part where he has to learn how to read complex defenses from scratch and make going through a progression second nature, in addition to learning a completely foreign pro offense. Oh wait, that will take a long time. Not to mention it will take longer for a 29 year old to learn than it would for a 22-24 year old.

Mr. Laz
04-13-2012, 08:54 PM
age with help maturity but i don't see how it will help him to learn NFL defenses.

BossChief
04-13-2012, 09:00 PM
I think Rieff will fall as far as Bulaga did. I would laugh at a team that moved to the top ten for him thinking he would be a pro bowl quality blindside protector.

...

1) move up for Tannehill...his ceiling is a franchise quarterback and without one, we might as well cheer for soccer. Fuck "next year"
2) move down, hopefully adding a future first
3) stay put and take Barron

O.city
04-13-2012, 09:12 PM
Whats the big infatuation with Barron?



Atleast with Decastro he's replacing an old ass guy who will have to be replaced in a year anyway.

beach tribe
04-13-2012, 11:38 PM
Weeden in the 1st again? "C'mon man"

beach tribe
04-13-2012, 11:39 PM
Whats the big infatuation with Barron?



Atleast with Decastro he's replacing an old ass guy who will have to be replaced in a year anyway.

We play LOTS of sub packages with 3 safeties. I believe Barron is going to be a world beater at SS.

beach tribe
04-13-2012, 11:42 PM
We play LOTS of sub packages with 3 safeties. I believe Barron is going to be a world beater at SS.

It would essentially make Kendrick Lewis our 6th DB on the field. That's just nasty, and last I checked Peyton Manning was in our div. now.

BossChief
04-13-2012, 11:51 PM
It's a passing league and if we are gonna have a shot at winning without a franchise quarterback, we are gonna need an elite defense that has good depth and sub packages.

Drafting Barron gives us two big hitting safeties that are premier run defenders and it allows Berry to move to free safety where I think he would help tremendously in coverage. Lewis is alright, but I see him as a similar player to Page was in that he isn't a great tackler or physical presence while also being a tad slow. Barron can fly and has great instincts and temperament.

Drafting Barron upgrades our pass defense as well as rush defense while giving us another physical presense in the secondary and it does wonders for our nickel and dime packages. Not to mention our secondary depth.

Decastro makes our line scary, but I just don't see that as important in today's NFL as a guy like Barron.

beach tribe
04-13-2012, 11:53 PM
It's a passing league and if we are gonna have a shot at winning without a franchise quarterback, we are gonna need an elite defense that has good depth and sub packages.

Drafting Barron gives us two big hitting safeties that are premier run defenders and it allows Berry to move to free safety where I think he would help tremendously in coverage. Lewis is alright, but I see him as a similar player to Page was in that he isn't a great tackler or physical presence while also being a tad slow. Barron can fly and has great instincts and temperament.

Drafting Barron upgrades our pass defense as well as rush defense while giving us another physical presense in the secondary and it does wonders for our nickel and dime packages. Not to mention our secondary depth.

Decastro makes our line scary, but I just don't see that as important in today's NFL as a guy like Barron.

Agree, of course. Per usual

BossChief
04-14-2012, 12:10 AM
I also don't think Lilja is that bad and that his age is overblown on here.

He's only 30 and is a local KC kid.

If he was as bad as Richardson was, I could stomach the thought of Decastro a little more but I simply don't think it's a spot that requires a significant investment.

Berry at free safety probably averages 6 or 7 picks a year and I don't think the dropoff at ss from Berry to Barron is all that much. Moving Berry from SS to FS also takes him away from as much contact and that would probably be good for his career after an early ACL tear.

Then, figure in Lewis' role in sub packages and you can see this defense significantly upgraded.

Routt gave up a lot of touchdowns last year, having Berrys speed behind him would surely help.

If we could find a way to add Barron and Chapman to this defense, spend the rest of the draft funds on the offense cause the defense would be close to set.

KCrockaholic
04-14-2012, 12:24 AM
I'd be ok with it, but not that mock you had going with it. Yuck.

Direckshun
04-14-2012, 08:05 AM
It's a passing league and if we are gonna have a shot at winning without a franchise quarterback, we are gonna need an elite defense that has good depth and sub packages.

Drafting Barron gives us two big hitting safeties that are premier run defenders and it allows Berry to move to free safety where I think he would help tremendously in coverage. Lewis is alright, but I see him as a similar player to Page was in that he isn't a great tackler or physical presence while also being a tad slow. Barron can fly and has great instincts and temperament.

Drafting Barron upgrades our pass defense as well as rush defense while giving us another physical presense in the secondary and it does wonders for our nickel and dime packages. Not to mention our secondary depth.

Decastro makes our line scary, but I just don't see that as important in today's NFL as a guy like Barron.

I also don't think Lilja is that bad and that his age is overblown on here.

He's only 30 and is a local KC kid.

If he was as bad as Richardson was, I could stomach the thought of Decastro a little more but I simply don't think it's a spot that requires a significant investment.

Berry at free safety probably averages 6 or 7 picks a year and I don't think the dropoff at ss from Berry to Barron is all that much. Moving Berry from SS to FS also takes him away from as much contact and that would probably be good for his career after an early ACL tear.

Then, figure in Lewis' role in sub packages and you can see this defense significantly upgraded.

Routt gave up a lot of touchdowns last year, having Berrys speed behind him would surely help.

If we could find a way to add Barron and Chapman to this defense, spend the rest of the draft funds on the offense cause the defense would be close to set.

You understand you're suggesting we're demoting a player who has not been a weakness on this team in Lewis, who has started for us for two seasons. When Lewis is out, our safety play goes to shit. He has been very important for this defense.

Teams never, ever do that.

I love Barron too, and he's a Top 5 candidate for the Chiefs' pick, but it's just impossible he ends up in Kansas City.

I don't know... You can make that argument against seemingly every prospect this year. Hell I want Mercilus or Ingram and you could write the same thing about Houston.

redsurfer11
04-14-2012, 08:52 AM
I've written extensively about Weeden.

I think he is this franchise's best chance at a franchise QB in the 2012 draft.

College football career

Weinke entered Florida State University in 1997, when he was 25 years old and joined the Florida State Seminoles football team as a quarterback. As a sophomore in 1998, Weinke led the Florida State Seminoles to a 91 record and #2 national ranking before a season-ending neck injury forced him to the sidelines. During his junior season in 1999, he led the #1 ranked Seminoles to the school's first undefeated season and second National Championship,[6] defeating Michael Vick and the Virginia Tech Hokies 46-29. As a senior in 2000, Weinke led the nation in passing with 4,167 yards and won the Heisman Trophy, awarded to college football's best player, as well as the Davey O'Brien Award and the Johnny Unitas Award. He also led the Seminoles to the Orange Bowl for their third national championship game in as many years, where they lost 132 to the Oklahoma Sooners. At the age of 28, Weinke was the oldest player ever to win the Heisman Trophy. He finished his Florida State career with a 323 record and held numerous FSU records including most passing yards in a career and most career touchdown passes. In 2001, Chris became the seventh Seminole (and second quarterback) to have his jersey retired. He also graduated with a degree in Sports Management and was a two-time ACC All-Academic Team selection.[1]
Chris Weinke was originally recruited by Florida State as part of the same recruiting class as Charlie Ward, another quarterback who would also win a Heisman Trophy and lead the Seminoles to a National Championship. However, because of Weinke's long hiatus in baseball, Weinke and Ward were never teammates.
[edit]Pro football career

[edit]Carolina Panthers
Weinke was selected by the Carolina Panthers in the fourth round (106th overall pick) of the 2001 NFL Draft. In 2001, he was the starter when the Panthers finished with a 1-15 record. At the time, the Panthers' 15 consecutive losses in 2001 was a single season record. Weinke averaged 36 pass attempts per game, more than any rookie in NFL history up to that point. After the season, Weinke became the Panthers backup quarterback. He saw his first action since the 2002 season on October 16, 2005, when starter Jake Delhomme went down with an injury against the Detroit Lions. Weinke threw a touchdown pass to wide receiver Ricky Proehl, giving the Panthers the 2120 win over the Lions.
He re-signed with Carolina during the 2006 off-season, where he continued to back up Delhomme. On December 10, 2006 in a game against the New York Giants, Weinke made his first start since 2001 in place of an injured Delhomme. The Panthers lost the game, but Weinke threw for 423 yards, topping the previous single-game team record of 373 set by Steve Beuerlein. Weinke started the next two games against the Pittsburgh Steelers and Atlanta Falcons, with the game against Atlanta being his second (and last) win as a starter in the NFL.
[edit]San Francisco 49ers
The San Francisco 49ers signed Weinke on December 12, 2007 after injuries to quarterbacks Alex Smith and Trent Dilfer. He started the final game of the 2007 season in a 20-7 loss to the Cleveland Browns. Weinke was not brought back by the 49ers for the 2008 season.


History repeats itself in the NFL. 4th round was "Too Damn High". Most NFL teams will remember this and stay away. I like Weedon's talent. But in reality he should go 4th to 5th round. Weedon is a project. Projects should never go in the early rounds. Carl always drafted projects in rounds 2-4.

milkman
04-14-2012, 10:30 AM
I agree. I think he could start mid way his first year. I don't think he needs three years to develop, at his age he's already ready to go.

Yeah, apart from the part where he has to learn how to read complex defenses from scratch and make going through a progression second nature, in addition to learning a completely foreign pro offense. Oh wait, that will take a long time. Not to mention it will take longer for a 29 year old to learn than it would for a 22-24 year old.

I was going to respond to Dave Lane's post, but saw your response and felt that you covered it far better than I would have.

So I just quoted each post to reiterate your response.

milkman
04-14-2012, 10:31 AM
It's a passing league and if we are gonna have a shot at winning without a franchise quarterback, we are gonna need an elite defense that has good depth and sub packages.

Drafting Barron gives us two big hitting safeties that are premier run defenders and it allows Berry to move to free safety where I think he would help tremendously in coverage. Lewis is alright, but I see him as a similar player to Page was in that he isn't a great tackler or physical presence while also being a tad slow. Barron can fly and has great instincts and temperament.

Drafting Barron upgrades our pass defense as well as rush defense while giving us another physical presense in the secondary and it does wonders for our nickel and dime packages. Not to mention our secondary depth.

Decastro makes our line scary, but I just don't see that as important in today's NFL as a guy like Barron.

Well said.

milkman
04-14-2012, 10:46 AM
Looking at that mock, I would be all over Peter Konz at #27, but I just don't see anyone that makes me think I'd want that #31 pick.

I'd trade down to #27, but I'd rather have a package that includes something other than that #31.

Bowser
04-14-2012, 10:47 AM
I like how Boss Chief says in one sentence that it's a passing league, then in the next says how Barron will give us two run stuffing safeties.

Not trying to goof on him by any means, by I see it as two sentences cancelling each other out.

milkman
04-14-2012, 10:52 AM
I like how Boss Chief says in one sentence that it's a passing league, then in the next says how Barron will give us two run stuffing safeties.

Not trying to goof on him by any means, by I see it as two sentences cancelling each other out.

I think what he is trying to say is that, should a team run in a passing situation, you would have two physical safeties that are beasts against the run.

In a passing league, you still need to be able to defend the run.

O.city
04-14-2012, 11:05 AM
I understand all that. That said, by drafting Barron you are replacing Lewis, a young ascending player that has starter for 2 years.


When Kuechly is brought up, it is said that we shouldn't replace Belcher for the same reason.


Now, I don't have any problem bringing in another safety and moving Berry to FS, hell I recommend it.


However, I don't know that it requires a first rounder.

milkman
04-14-2012, 11:11 AM
I understand all that. That said, by drafting Barron you are replacing Lewis, a young ascending player that has starter for 2 years.


When Kuechly is brought up, it is said that we shouldn't replace Belcher for the same reason.


Now, I don't have any problem bringing in another safety and moving Berry to FS, hell I recommend it.


However, I don't know that it requires a first rounder.

This is where we disagree.

I don't really see Lewis as an ascending player.

He looks like a guy that has reached his ceiling.
A guy that is pretty good as a center fielder in the defense, but that doesn't add anything more.

O.city
04-14-2012, 11:15 AM
This is where we disagree.

I don't really see Lewis as an ascending player.

He looks like a guy that has reached his ceiling.
A guy that is pretty good as a center fielder in the defense, but that doesn't add anything more.

I think he was exposed and put in a spot last year to do things he wasn't ever expected to do. With Berry back there, Lewis doesn't have to help with the run at all. Just play center field.


I would like to move Berry to that spot and have someone else stuff the run, because of injury concerns. However those same concerns will be put into Barron, another high round first round pick, who was picked in a spot where we could have some other impact guy.


If we could trade down, get more picks and grab Barron, I'm all for it.

DJ's left nut
04-14-2012, 12:07 PM
A Lewis/Berry/Brown defensive backfield would not be appreciably worse in coverage than a Barron/Berry/Lewis defensive backfield. And a Berry/Lewis safety combination is much better in coverage than a Barron/Berry safety combination out of the base defense.

Barron isn't a good coverage safety. Drafting him because of his ability to upgrade our coverage packages or citing the fact that this is now a 'passing league' doesn't do much for your argument.

His impact would be felt much more against the run than the pass, IMO.

I absolutely hate him as a first rounder for this team.

Chiefshrink
04-14-2012, 12:59 PM
Two pronged question:

(1.) Would you trade our pick for both of the Pats 1st round picks, straight up?

They won't trade up, but if they ever wanted to, this is the year to do it with all the premier passrushers and the fact they are going to have lost both of their best pass rushers by the time the draft rolls in.

#11 pick: 1250 points
#27 & #31: 1280 points

If you would, then:

(2.) Imagine the draft fell like it does in WF's latest mock (http://www.walterfootball.com/draft2012.php).

Who are your first three picks? (Or more, if you so choose.)

1a. DE Devon Still, Penn State
1b. QB Brandon Weeden, Oklahoma State
2. CB Alfonzo Dennard, Nebraska
3. NT Josh Chapman, Alabama
4. RB Vick Ballard, Mississippi State
5. OLB Bruce Irvin, West Virginia
6. C David Molk, Michigan

QB: Weeden, Quinn, Stanzi
RB: Charles, Hillis, McCluster, Ballard
FB: Bannon

WR: Bowe, Baldwin, Breaston, Copper, McCluster
TE: Moeaki, Boss, Maneri

LT: Albert, Mims
LG: Lilja, Harris
C: Hudson, Molk
RG: Asamoah, Harris
RT: Winston, Mims

DE: Dorsey, Bailey
NT: Chapman, Gordon, Powe
DE: Jackson, Still

OLB: Hali, Sheffield
ILB: Belcher, Siler
ILB: Johnson, Siler
OLB: Houston, Irvin

CB: Flowers, Routt, Arenas, Dennard, Daniels, Brown
S: Berry, Lewis, McGraw, Washington

2013 roster (assuming we go something like ILB and FS with our first two picks):

QB: Weeden, Quinn, Stanzi
RB: Charles, Ballard, McCluster
FB: Bannon

WR: Bowe, Baldwin, Breaston, Copper, McCluster
TE: Moeaki, Boss, Maneri

LT: Albert, Mims
LG: Hudson, Harris
C: Molk, Harris
RG: Asamoah, Harris
RT: Winston, Mims

DE: Still, Bailey
NT: Chapman, Powe
DE: Jackson, Bailey

OLB: Hali, Sheffield
ILB: 1st, Siler
ILB: Johnson, Siler
OLB: Houston, Irvin

CB: Flowers, Dennard, Arenas, Brown, Daniels
S: Berry, Lewis, 2nd

Not if we need to improve our pass rush and total no. of sacks as well. And this 'only happens' IF Bellichek really thinks someone is worth giving up an additional 1st rnd pick at 11 and Pioli already knows that answer which is probably "Hell No"!! Bellichek sits in the perfect spot as far as he is concerned !! But I like your fantasy thinking here though!!

saphojunkie
04-14-2012, 03:21 PM
Just stop it with this Weeden bullshit

Weeden is going to Cleveland after they take Blackmon. It's the only way drafting him makes any sense, because he already has years of rapport with his #1 target. Any team that drafts Weeden needs him up to speed ASAP, and the best way to do that is give him is All American receiver.

My 2 cents. I say he goes #22 to Cleveland.

Chocolate Hog
04-14-2012, 04:38 PM
A Lewis/Berry/Brown defensive backfield would not be appreciably worse in coverage than a Barron/Berry/Lewis defensive backfield. And a Berry/Lewis safety combination is much better in coverage than a Barron/Berry safety combination out of the base defense.

Barron isn't a good coverage safety. Drafting him because of his ability to upgrade our coverage packages or citing the fact that this is now a 'passing league' doesn't do much for your argument.

His impact would be felt much more against the run than the pass, IMO.

I absolutely hate him as a first rounder for this team.

I think Ioka is a better player and will be there in the 2nd round.

O.city
04-14-2012, 04:39 PM
I think Iloka is there in the 3 or 4.

SNR
04-14-2012, 05:18 PM
Pestilence got me all jazzed up about taking Iloka as well.

It's weird because I've also been eyeing Shea McClellin with our 2nd, and even a guy like Billy Wynn in the 5th, 6th, and possibly even 7th rounds.

The Boise State defense just never strikes me as that dominant in college. It seems like they give up fuck tons of points to bad Mountain West programs all the time.

O.city
04-14-2012, 05:30 PM
I would be ecstatic if Wynn was there in the 5th. I don't think he makes it past the 3.


Boise had some really good prospects this year. I like Iloka later in the draft, although i don't know that he's very good at covering the pass. We need a S to play McGraws role.

Mr. Laz
04-14-2012, 05:47 PM
You understand you're suggesting we're demoting a player who has not been a weakness on this team in Lewis, who has started for us for two seasons. When Lewis is out, our safety play goes to shit. He has been very important for this defense.

Teams never, ever do that.

I love Barron too, and he's a Top 5 candidate for the Chiefs' pick, but it's just impossible he ends up in Kansas City.

I don't know... You can make that argument against seemingly every prospect this year. Hell I want Mercilus or Ingram and you could write the same thing about Houston.
Lewis was a limitation on our defense

we brought in 2 guys(McGraw and Washington?) to bracket a tightend because Lewis can't cover.

Lewis is also weak in run support

Lewis is too slow to play centerfield AND help with sideline routes

Lewis does one thing well and that one thing is the easiest thing a free safety does ... play centerfield. He gets the flashy stats without getting the blame because the fans don't see him with a specific responsibility

he's not getting any faster

Berry on the other hand could play centerfield AND play sideline to sideline. He is also physical enough in run support and can blow WR up on the quick slants.

Barron is a guy who is good enough to let Berry move to free/deep safety


i don't understand why people think Lewis is anything other than 'a guy'

Chocolate Hog
04-14-2012, 06:15 PM
I would be ecstatic if Wynn was there in the 5th. I don't think he makes it past the 3.


Boise had some really good prospects this year. I like Iloka later in the draft, although i don't know that he's very good at covering the pass. We need a S to play McGraws role.

You would love my CP draft then. I got Andrew Luck and also drafted Wynn in the 5th round.







Lewis was a limitation on our defense

we brought in 2 guys(McGraw and Washington?) to bracket a tightend because Lewis can't cover.

Lewis is also weak in run support

Lewis is too slow to play centerfield AND help with sideline routes

Lewis does one thing well and that one thing is the easiest thing a free safety does ... play centerfield. He gets the flashy stats without getting the blame because the fans don't see him with a specific responsibility

he's not getting any faster

Berry on the other hand could play centerfield AND play sideline to sideline. He is also physical enough in run support and can blow WR up on the quick slants.

Barron is a guy who is good enough to let Berry move to free/deep safety


i don't understand why people think Lewis is anything other than 'a guy'

Lewis improved last year and will only be better with Eric Berry. If you draft Barron it would to play him as a SS and move Berry to FS. This doesn't make a lot of sense though because Berry had shown he was a great SS. Also look up the Chiefs record in 2010 when Lewis didn't play the team was 1-3 and gave up an average of 29 points.

Mr. Laz
04-14-2012, 06:26 PM
You would love my CP draft then. I got Andrew Luck and also drafted Wynn in the 5th round.

Lewis improved last year and will only be better with Eric Berry. If you draft Barron it would to play him as a SS and move Berry to FS. This doesn't make a lot of sense though because Berry had shown he was a great SS. Also look up the Chiefs record in 2010 when Lewis didn't play the team was 1-3 and gave up an average of 29 points.
imo Berry should of been a FS all along

i don't believe Lewis was the reason for the 1-3/29pts

O.city
04-14-2012, 06:30 PM
I would like to move Berry to FS.


I'm a proponent of grabbing Harrison smith in the second. Take an impact guy in the first like Mercilus or whoever.

Mr. Laz
04-14-2012, 06:37 PM
i'm not saying we should definitely take Barron


just saying that Lewis isn't a good reason to NOT select Barron.


imo you try and grab special type players whenever you can even if you have to make room for them.

Seems to me that DeCastro,Barron,Richardson,Kuechly are special type players.

Some people think that Tannehill can be a special type player.

:shrug:

our pick should probably come from this group imo

Nightfyre
04-14-2012, 06:39 PM
1a) Nick Perry
1b) Coby Fleener
2) Harrison Smith
3) Jared Crick
4) Russell Wilson
5) David Molk
6) Nick Jean-Baptiste
7a) Chris Owusu
7b) Elvis Akpla

O.city
04-14-2012, 06:41 PM
I could actually get behind that mock Nightfyre, save for the Russel Wilson. No way I'm spending a 4th on him. I also don't think molk last that long.

Mr. Laz
04-14-2012, 06:46 PM
USC guys make me cringe

O.city
04-14-2012, 06:52 PM
Defensive USC guys don't make me cringe as much. I will say the more I watch Mercilus the more I like the guy.

Nightfyre
04-14-2012, 06:54 PM
Mercilus won't be there at 27.

O.city
04-14-2012, 06:55 PM
If I want Mercilus, I stay at 11.

DTLB58
04-14-2012, 07:18 PM
Weeden in the 1st?

Ugh.

Yes. How did Brian Billick say that this week...Need is a BAD evaluator of talent.
:D

DJ's left nut
04-14-2012, 08:01 PM
1a) Nick Perry
1b) Coby Fleener
2) Harrison Smith
3) Jared Crick
4) Russell Wilson
5) David Molk
6) Nick Jean-Baptiste
7a) Chris Owusu
7b) Elvis Akpla

Don't like the Fleener pick at all. I don't think he has enough upside as a pass-catcher to be worth that pick. He strikes me as more of a Dustin Keller than a true difference maker.

If I thought Perry would be there with 1a, that makes that trade a little more palatable. If we could turn that into a Perry/Konz turn at 27 and 31, I'd be pretty happy with it.

Love the Smith pick; not the Crick pick (rather have Chapman). Wilson at 4 is way too high and Molk would be redundant for me. I'd probably go with Nigel Bradham, Mychael Kendricks or Egnew in the 4th there.

Nightfyre
04-14-2012, 08:14 PM
I doubt Russell Wilson makes it out of the fourth. We shall see.

O.city
04-14-2012, 08:15 PM
Similar feeling about Fleener. If we are taking a TE it needs to be of the Graham type, an athlete.


I like the Owusu pick alot and Baptiste as a potential NT.


Really if we could trade down to that spot and have an extra first, I might think about taking Poe if he is available.

BossChief
04-14-2012, 08:40 PM
I like Mercilus a whole lot, but I look at it like this.

I truly think Houstons ceiling is elite and that he has a good chance of getting there by the end of the upcoming year.

Lewis' ceiling is damn close to what he currently is due to physical limitations of size and speed.

If you draft Mercilus, it takes Houston off the field for 80% of the defensive snaps.

Maybe more...or it only puts Mercilus on the field 20% of the time.

Taking Barron doesn't completely take Lewis off the field, in fact he would still be on the field more than half the time and would be in specified situations he can prepare exclusively for and therefore should make him more effective.

Taking him also puts Berry out of harms way by moving him to free safety where his speed and coverage ability would be better utilized and he is at less risk of re-injury because he wouldn't be expected to throw his body into the fire nearly as much.

As far as I'm concerned, if we stay at 11, my pick is Barron.

Nightfyre
04-14-2012, 08:41 PM
You are high off your asshole if you think Barron is worth the eleventh pick, imo.

BossChief
04-14-2012, 08:45 PM
Casserly said Barron should go at 7 to Jacksonville.

It wouldn't shock me if he did.

He is an extremely undervalued prospect in today's NFL.

milkman
04-14-2012, 08:51 PM
Casserly said Barron should go at 7 to Jacksonville.

It wouldn't shock me if he did.

He is an extremely undervalued prospect in today's NFL.

I'm on your side in this debate, but no one should ever listen to anything Charlie Casserly says, and more importantly, use anything he says to prop up an argument.

BossChief
04-14-2012, 08:57 PM
You know what would be a good trade?

Dorsey and 11 to the rams for 6 and take Tannehill.

He is gone to a team like the rams next year anyway and that gets us a quarterback without sacrificing picks and it gives them a damn good player that could be a huge difference maker in their 40 front.

In the second take a center like Konz or Jones.

In the third, Chapman.

In the fourth, take iioka.

To da ship

BossChief
04-14-2012, 09:05 PM
I'm on your side in this debate, but no one should ever listen to anything Charlie Casserly says, and more importantly, use anything he says to prop up an argument.while you are probably right, Mayock also loves the kid.

After his proday he said he should be a top ten pick and that the only thing that sets Eric Berry apart from him is that Berry could probably be a starting corner.

Said Barron will have no problems manning up on tight ends, slot guys and backs but would have trouble with starting receivers in man coverage.

Those kind of safeties are as good as gold in today's NFL.

Blick
04-14-2012, 09:08 PM
I like Barron at 11 better than that whole Tannehill deal. If we get Tannehill, what happens with Stanzi?

But I agree on not taking a guy that will take Houston off the field. That has been my issue the whole time with taking another edge rusher.

We need a nose or an end that can get a pass rush. But, I don't really like a lot of those guys.

I like the Berry-Barron-Lewis safety group, and that truly is what you need in today's NFL. That, and putting the QB on his ass. Hali and Houston should have that covered.

Nightfyre
04-14-2012, 09:13 PM
I like Barron at 11 better than that whole Tannehill deal. If we get Tannehill, what happens with Stanzi?

But I agree on not taking a guy that will take Houston off the field. That has been my issue the whole time with taking another edge rusher.

We need a nose or an end that can get a pass rush. But, I don't really like a lot of those guys.

I like the Berry-Barron-Lewis safety group, and that truly is what you need in today's NFL. That, and putting the QB on his ass. Hali and Houston should have that covered.

I have never seen so much ignorance stacked into one post.

O.city
04-14-2012, 09:17 PM
I'm coming around on Barron I guess.


I just think the better way to stop the passing game these days is with the pass rush not really the back end.


That said, you could come out of this draft with Barron in the first and Nick Perry in the second I would love that.

Barron, Perry, Molk, Chapman, Pead, Owusu?

Blick
04-14-2012, 09:22 PM
I have never seen so much ignorance stacked into one post.

Please enlighten me.

BossChief
04-14-2012, 09:30 PM
I'm 99% certain that this is Glenns last year in KC and I'm positive the Rams would be interested.

I'd rather move him in a move up to get a qb than to let him walk after the year.

If that doesnt work out, Barron would be one hell of a good pick.

Nightfyre
04-14-2012, 09:38 PM
I like Barron at 11 better than that whole Tannehill deal. If we get Tannehill, what happens with Stanzi?

But I agree on not taking a guy that will take Houston off the field. That has been my issue the whole time with taking another edge rusher.

We need a nose or an end that can get a pass rush. But, I don't really like a lot of those guys.

I like the Berry-Barron-Lewis safety group, and that truly is what you need in today's NFL. That, and putting the QB on his ass. Hali and Houston should have that covered.

For starters: Who cares what happens to Ricky Stanzi.
Second: We need a nose or an end who can collapse the pocket. Our ends do not rush the passer. They don't try to penetrate gaps. It's not our system.
Third: You truly don't need a three-safety group in today's NFL. What you need are a QB and a pass rush. So I really don't know what issue you have with taking another edge rusher.

O.city
04-14-2012, 09:39 PM
I think Dorsey is likely gone as well. We need to grab some dline depth here in the draft.

Wolfe, Crick, or Billy Wynne would be good. If by some crazy act Brockers lasted until the second I would jump for joy.

O.city
04-14-2012, 09:41 PM
That said, I would love to see if Dorsey could add about 15 pounds and play the nose.


If we do keep him on, I'd like to see some more 4 man fronts like we did against Denver. He dominated that game in Denver.

milkman
04-14-2012, 09:42 PM
I'm coming around on Barron I guess.


I just think the better way to stop the passing game these days is with the pass rush not really the back end.


That said, you could come out of this draft with Barron in the first and Nick Perry in the second I would love that.

Barron, Perry, Molk, Chapman, Pead, Owusu?

I agree that the best way to defend the pass is to get after the QB.

But over the last 10 years, the back end has increased in importance, and there just isn't a pass rusher that I think makes sense with the #11 pick with the exception of Ingram,who I've said that I would take with that pick if he's there.

Brockers might be a guy that generates a rush from the DE position, but I am not fully convinced that he can.

Ingram is a guy that can come in and give Hali and Houston a rest, can step into the middle and blitz, or play at DE in sub packages and provide some pass rush on the line.

I think he or Barron do more for this defense, and for this team, than any other player that's been discussed

O.city
04-14-2012, 09:44 PM
I agree that the best way to defend the pass is to get after the QB.

But over the last 10 years, the back end has increased in importance, and there just isn't a pass rusher that I think makes sense with the #11 pick with the exception of Ingram,who I've said that I would take with that pick if he's there.

Brockers might be a guy that generates a rush from the DE position, but I am not fully convinced that he can.

Ingram is a guy that can come in and give Hali and Houston a rest, can step into the middle and blitz, or play at DE in sub packages and provide some pass rush on the line.

I think he or Barron do more for this defense, and for this team, than any other player that's been discussed

Nice take Milk. I agree.


We really need a NT to compress the pocket. I would love to get a guy that can do that in this draft, if there is one.


One rusher I'm intrigued by is Bruce Irvin. He could be had later in the draft.

milkman
04-14-2012, 09:44 PM
For starters: Who cares what happens to Ricky Stanzi.
Second: We need a nose or an end who can collapse the pocket. Our ends do not rush the passer. They don't try to penetrate gaps. It's not our system.
Third: You truly don't need a three-safety group in today's NFL. What you need are a QB and a pass rush. So I really don't know what issue you have with taking another edge rusher.

Did you happen to miss the post that pointed out that the Chiefs played more snaps with 3 safeties than all but one team last year?

Nightfyre
04-14-2012, 09:47 PM
Did you happen to miss the post that pointed out that the Chiefs played more snaps with 3 safeties than all but one team last year?

I understand that the Chiefs employed three safety sets last year. However, you don't need a three safety set to be successful in the NFL. That statement is egregiously erroneous. Further, you can't speculate how Crennel's scheme will change now that we have Berry back in the mix.

O.city
04-14-2012, 09:48 PM
You may not need it, but we use it. Therefor we need another safety.

BossChief
04-14-2012, 09:52 PM
I was super high on Ingram till I saw his arm length.

With arms like that, you need to be Hali and I'm not sure he can be that guy in the NFL.

I'd definitely support the pick, but I would rather take Barron.

BossChief
04-14-2012, 09:54 PM
I understand that the Chiefs employed three safety sets last year. However, you don't need a three safety set to be successful in the NFL. That statement is egregiously erroneous. Further, you can't speculate how Crennel's scheme will change now that we have Berry back in the mix.

With Manning now in the division, we will employ 3 safety sets even more.

O.city
04-14-2012, 09:55 PM
Boss, I could really support the Barron pick I just don't know if Pioli will spend two high first rounders on one position like that.

milkman
04-14-2012, 09:56 PM
I understand that the Chiefs employed three safety sets last year. However, you don't need a three safety set to be successful in the NFL. That statement is egregiously erroneous. Further, you can't speculate how Crennel's scheme will change now that we have Berry back in the mix.

I disagree.

In today's NFL, you win with the pass, and by defending the pass, but also with guys that give you the best chance to defend the pass and run, both.

I think the 3 safety set is going to be part of a team's defensive rotation more and more as we move forward.

Not just the Chiefs, but throughout the league.

O.city
04-14-2012, 09:57 PM
I just finished watching Rocky fight Ivan Drago. The speech Rocky's trainer gives him after he cuts Drago always gets me amped up.


Fuck I'm ready for September. Lets play some football.

Chief Roundup
04-14-2012, 10:05 PM
With Manning now in the division, we will employ 3 safety sets even more.

Not sure what Romeo always ran to beat Manning before but if that was the 3 safety set ok. Just not sure that we have to spend that high of a pick on another safety. We only play the donkos 2 times a year. I don't want to build our team to beat Manning. He is not the end all be all.

The Cubs have been building their teams to be the Cards for years and after 100+ years they are still trying to win something other than the rivalry year in and year out.

O.city
04-14-2012, 10:10 PM
Barron is a stud, I will say that.


He could be better, well probably not better don't think you could get better, but he would be great playing the SS for this team than what Berry is.


It would be a great pick actually. You have the best safety tandem in the leauge, both likely to play for years together.

BossChief
04-14-2012, 10:13 PM
Not sure what Romeo always ran to beat Manning before but if that was the 3 safety set ok. Just not sure that we have to spend that high of a pick on another safety. We only play the donkos 2 times a year. I don't want to build our team to beat Manning. He is not the end all be all.

The Cubs have been building their teams to be the Cards for years and after 100+ years they are still trying to win something other than the rivalry year in and year out.

It's not just Manning.

Combined with Rivers, that's 25% of our schedule over the next few years.

Then, you have all the other franchise quarterbacks in the NFL and it's basically 70% of the time that we will be facing good quarterbacks.

1) Barron
2) Perry
3) Chapman
4) Molk
5) burflict
6) who cares
7) who cares

O.city
04-14-2012, 10:16 PM
It's not just Manning.

Combined with Rivers, that's 25% of our schedule over the next few years.

Then, you have all the other franchise quarterbacks in the NFL and it's basically 70% of the time that we will be facing good quarterbacks.

1) Barron
2) Perry
3) Chapman
4) Molk
5) burflict
6) who cares
7) who cares

Let me fill this in for ya.


Barron
Perry
Chapman
Molk
Pead
Owusu
Burfict

Chief Roundup
04-14-2012, 10:20 PM
It's not just Manning.

Combined with Rivers, that's 25% of our schedule over the next few years.

Then, you have all the other franchise quarterbacks in the NFL and it's basically 70% of the time that we will be facing good quarterbacks.

1) Barron
2) Perry
3) Chapman
4) Molk
5) burflict
6) who cares
7) who cares

We have been controlling Rivers already. We already have shown that we can beat Aaron Rodgers even without Berry .

Don't think Perry will be there in the 2cd. Most mocks have him in the 20s in the first. Like the idea of Molk in the 4th.

BossChief
04-14-2012, 10:23 PM
If we don't have a franchise quarterback, we will NEED a Baltimore/Tampa ELITE defense if we are gonna have a chance in the playoffs and nowadays, it all starts in the secondary.

Good safeties are the new NTs of defenses.

I said it the other day and I'll say it again, a strong case could be made that safeties are as important as NTs used to be.

Barron and Berry would give us a set of safeties that can both flat out fly and both have a great temperament for defense as well.

Pair that secondary with our pass rush and this defense could contend for the top unit in the league in the coming years with Btimore nad Pittsburgh getting old.

Chief Roundup
04-14-2012, 10:32 PM
If we don't have a franchise quarterback, we will NEED a Baltimore/Tampa ELITE defense if we are gonna have a chance in the playoffs and nowadays, it all starts in the secondary.

Good safeties are the new NTs of defenses.

I said it the other day and I'll say it again, a strong case could be made that safeties are as important as NTs used to be.

Barron and Berry would give us a set of safeties that can both flat out fly and both have a great temperament for defense as well.

Pair that secondary with our pass rush and this defense could contend for the top unit in the league in the coming years with Btimore nad Pittsburgh getting old.

Pressure from Pass Rush is every bit as or more important than the secondary. Look at the Ravens, 49ers and so on.

Blick
04-14-2012, 10:40 PM
For starters: Who cares what happens to Ricky Stanzi.
Second: We need a nose or an end who can collapse the pocket. Our ends do not rush the passer. They don't try to penetrate gaps. It's not our system.
Third: You truly don't need a three-safety group in today's NFL. What you need are a QB and a pass rush. So I really don't know what issue you have with taking another edge rusher.

1. A lot of people here care what happens with Stanzi. He might be the best QB on the roster.

2. You say we need a nose or an end that can collapse the pocket. I said rush the QB. We mean the same thing. Does collapsing the pocket not help rush the QB?

3. The more veteran posters have already hit the 3 safety setup. It's needed. Do you want to settle for a McGraw type as the third safety? The pass rush is already there with Houston and Hali. If you take another edge rusher, they're all either not going to be on the field at the same time, or if they are, then somebody is going to be doing something that doesn't really suit their strengths as a player.

BossChief
04-14-2012, 10:43 PM
We already have at least as much pass rushing talent as either of those teams.

Bailey
Gilberry
Hali
Houston
DJ
Belcher (not used in this fashion much, but had two sacks against Baltimore in the playoff game)
Arenas
Berry

I obviously would love another pass rusher, but I don't think this defense would get quite the bang for the buck by taking Houston off the field as it would with adding Barron.

BossChief
04-14-2012, 11:06 PM
I disagee, I think it will be much easier to beat the Donkos with Manning that it will be with Tebow.

Kill yourself

Nightfyre
04-14-2012, 11:35 PM
1. A lot of people here care what happens with Stanzi. He might be the best QB on the roster.

2. You say we need a nose or an end that can collapse the pocket. I said rush the QB. We mean the same thing. Does collapsing the pocket not help rush the QB?

3. The more veteran posters have already hit the 3 safety setup. It's needed. Do you want to settle for a McGraw type as the third safety? The pass rush is already there with Houston and Hali. If you take another edge rusher, they're all either not going to be on the field at the same time, or if they are, then somebody is going to be doing something that doesn't really suit their strengths as a player.
1. You're a homer if you think Stanzi is a better prospect than Tannehill.
2. There is a distinct difference between the two.
3. I disagree. You can rotate them to get them breathers. You can create more deceptive blitz packages with three rushers in than two. Peyton will tear coverages apart. He can't do that if his face is in the dirt.

BossChief
04-14-2012, 11:43 PM
There is a lot of smoke around his arm strength...or lack thereof.

If the guy has Carson Palmer disease where his mind says yes but his arm strength says no, he could be in trouble.

Especially if we stock the defensive backfield with playmakers and tone setters like Berry, Flowers and Barron.

Who wants to catch the ball and get hit by those guys for all 60 minutes?

Blick
04-15-2012, 12:28 AM
1. You're a homer if you think Stanzi is a better prospect than Tannehill.
2. There is a distinct difference between the two.
3. I disagree. You can rotate them to get them breathers. You can create more deceptive blitz packages with three rushers in than two. Peyton will tear coverages apart. He can't do that if his face is in the dirt.

I didn't say Stanzi was a better prospect than Tannehill.

Collapsing the pocket doesn't help rush the QB? Doesn't help make the QB uncomfortable? However you want to word it, the front 3 needs to do a better job of it.

You're gonna take a guy in the first round to give breathers? That's a luxury move we can't afford to make. Like Boss said, the defense will get more out of Barron than another pass rusher. We have pass rushers and guys to create deceptive blitz packages already.

Plus, with all this superior knowledge you supposedly have about how the defense is run, you sure don't realize that Romeo isn't that aggressive or exotic with his scheme. This isn't Pittsburgh's 3-4. So, with that in mind, taking an auxiliary pass rusher doesn't make as much sense as some of the other options in the first.

Saccopoo
04-15-2012, 12:33 AM
Two pronged question:

(1.) Would you trade our pick for both of the Pats 1st round picks, straight up?

They won't trade up, but...

We really need to get you laid.

Chocolate Hog
04-15-2012, 01:36 AM
We already have at least as much pass rushing talent as either of those teams.

Bailey
Gilberry
Hali
Houston
DJ
Belcher (not used in this fashion much, but had two sacks against Baltimore in the playoff game)
Arenas
Berry

I obviously would love another pass rusher, but I don't think this defense would get quite the bang for the buck by taking Houston off the field as it would with adding Barron.

Isn't Gilberry a free agent? I think we need another pass rusher the Miami game was a great example. Hali was toast from the MNF game we had nobody else to get after Moore and he looked like a pro bowler.

Vinny Curry is a guy that doesn't get talked about much on this board but would be a great 2nd round pick.

BryanBusby
04-15-2012, 03:08 AM
I'd take the trade for sure, as you're going to find some pretty damn good talent into the later part of Day 3.

I sure as fuck wouldn't do it to take Weeden though, or Still.

DJ's left nut
04-15-2012, 08:33 AM
I still don't see why taking a safety with coverage concerns is the answer for the 'new' NFL.

Our pass coverage does not improve at all by replacing Lewis with Barron. Lewis is a good coverage safety. He's hot garbage in run support, but he is a plus coverage guy.

The '3 safety' formations are just dime/quarter packages with a different name. Putting Berry, Lewis, Flowers, Routt, Arenas, Daniels and Brown on the field is going to be a strong coverage group.

Barron is a guy you draft at 11 if you don't already have a defensive quarterback and universal stud like Berry in your defensive backfield.

On this team, all he does is provide an upgrade in run-support over Lewis. That's nowhere near critical enough to justify a pick that high, especially not when you can get a guy like Taylor or Smith a round or 2 later.

tredadda
04-15-2012, 08:50 AM
Trading back: :thumb:

Drafting Weeden in Round 1: :facepalm:

I do not in any way want Weeden. I think there are QBs that will be available with more upside than him. He would make a good backup, unfortunately we need a starter.

Chief Roundup
04-15-2012, 09:06 AM
Weeden didn't look good in the Gruden QB interview. He played mostly out of the spread with signals for plays. No huddle and spitting out those long verbage plays. He looked confused when Gruden starting saying some of that verbage.
Just say no to Weeden.

Coogs
04-15-2012, 09:39 AM
Great thread. You guys have convinced me that Barron would be an excellent addition to this team. I'm in! :thumb:

BossChief
04-15-2012, 09:51 AM
Since when does Barron have coverage concerns?

He played the last two seasons with a double hernia and covered just fine.

He is every bit as good in diagnosing plays and keeping to his responsibilities in coverage as Lewis, but is much much faster.

Team speed.

Lewis is basically the same guy Jerrad Page was except he is 25-30 pounds lighter. Not fast, bad tackler, not physical enough, but average in coverage.

If you think Barron is a liability in coverage, we are gonna have to agree to disagree.

DJ's left nut
04-15-2012, 09:59 AM
Since when does Barron have coverage concerns?

He played the last two seasons with a double hernia and covered just fine.

He is every bit as good in diagnosing plays and keeping to his responsibilities in coverage as Lewis, but is much much faster.

Team speed.

Lewis is basically the same guy Jerrad Page was except he is 25-30 pounds lighter. Not fast, bad tackler, not physical enough, but average in coverage.

If you think Barron is a liability in coverage, we are gonna have to agree to disagree.

S'pose so.

He's not a liability in coverage, but he's not an upgrade on Lewis either. I think you are understating Lewis in coverage and overstating Barron. There's no question that our run defense would improve with Barron, but not enough to justify the selection.

BossChief
04-15-2012, 10:22 AM
We had the 26th ranked rush defense in terms of yardage. 14th in average per rush allowed.

We were 6th in pass yardage given up. We were 22nd in YPA allowed through the air.

A player like Barron impacts all of those numbers significantly because of his tackling ability, big play ability and speed upgrade over everything we had out there last year after Berry went down.

I guess what Im getting at is that I see Barron as a clear upgrade to Lewis as a starting safety and that Lewis is almost a perfect guy to have in our sub packages.

Barron and Lewis are probably on even footing in coverage ability, but Barrons speed gives him the edge and with Barron you have a two way defender where with Lewis you have a center fielder only.

Plus, the guy is a total tone setter on defense and is tough as nails.

Blick
04-15-2012, 11:18 AM
Yeah, the run defense needs to get a lot better, and if it does, that will help the pass rush as well by forcing teams into more 3rd and long situations.

Lewis is a replaceable guy and I like him better as a sub as well.

Barron is the type of athlete that will help our defense take a step towards being elite.

DJ's left nut
04-15-2012, 01:31 PM
We had the 26th ranked rush defense in terms of yardage. 14th in average per rush allowed.

We were 6th in pass yardage given up. We were 22nd in YPA allowed through the air.

A player like Barron impacts all of those numbers significantly because of his tackling ability, big play ability and speed upgrade over everything we had out there last year after Berry went down.

I guess what Im getting at is that I see Barron as a clear upgrade to Lewis as a starting safety and that Lewis is almost a perfect guy to have in our sub packages.

Barron and Lewis are probably on even footing in coverage ability, but Barrons speed gives him the edge and with Barron you have a two way defender where with Lewis you have a center fielder only.

Plus, the guy is a total tone setter on defense and is tough as nails.

Your tone setters are Eric Berry, Brandon Flowers and Jovan Belcher. We have those kinds of guys already.

Barron would do indirectly what Brockers could do directly, IMO.

I don't disagree with you that Barron would be an upgrade at SS. Then again, Carr would be an upgrade at #2 CB. At some point it becomes a question of finite resources and infinite needs. Do we really want to put two very high 1st round picks into our safeties over 3 years? Especially when Jackson is going to have a massive cap-hit next year and Dorsey is likely to walk?

If you can get Barron in the 2nd, sure - do that. But here's the thing; I think there's a good chance you can get Barron in the 2nd with Harrison Smith. If you're hell-bent on replacing Lewis, what makes Barron so much more attractive than Smith in your eyes? So much moreso that you're willing to use the 11 overall on him.

No way, I just cannot get there.

O.city
04-15-2012, 01:34 PM
Thats the thing with about every pick we could make at 11. There is a guy later in the draft who can basically do what your first rounder can do.


Only guy that really might not be that is Decastro, Brockers, or gulp Poe.

DJ's left nut
04-15-2012, 01:42 PM
Which is why I finally started to warm on both DeCastro and Brockers.

I see the argument that guards aren't as critical - but nobody is even attempting to argue that DeCastro isn't easily the best guard in this draft and probably the best guard in a decade. That's the only reason you consider a guard there; he's just that good.

Still compares with Brockers, Cox perhaps compares with Poe. But the gap between DeCastro and Cordy Glenn is light-years. And that's why I'm willing to consider DeCastro here.

Blick
04-15-2012, 01:45 PM
Thats the thing with about every pick we could make at 11. There is a guy later in the draft who can basically do what your first rounder can do.


Only guy that really might not be that is Decastro, Brockers, or gulp Poe.

Yeah. This is why I haven't been on the pass rusher bandwagon in the first round. We already have Houston and Hali. We'd be taking a part time player at 11. No thanks. You can get a rotational guy later like Bruce Irvin, or somebody else. Somebody will fall like Houston did last year.

milkman
04-15-2012, 01:48 PM
Which is why I finally started to warm on both DeCastro and Brockers.

I see the argument that guards aren't as critical - but nobody is even attempting to argue that DeCastro isn't easily the best guard in this draft and probably the best guard in a decade. That's the only reason you consider a guard there; he's just that good.

Still compares with Brockers, Cox perhaps compares with Poe. But the gap between DeCastro and Cordy Glenn is light-years. And that's why I'm willing to consider DeCastro here.

No one is going to argue that DeCastro isn't easily the best guard.

But we've seen far too many teams win with mediocre guards to care.

I am not going to spend money on the nicest Ford Pinto I've ever seen if I can get a Mustang for the same price.

Pestilence
04-15-2012, 01:51 PM
Iloka in the 3rd would be perfect.

I would happily trade down in the first for an extra 3rd round pick. That way you can grab Iloka and Chapman in the 3rd.

DJ's left nut
04-15-2012, 01:55 PM
No one is going to argue that DeCastro isn't easily the best guard.

But we've seen far too many teams win with mediocre guards to care.

I am not going to spend money on the nicest Ford Pinto I've ever seen if I can get a Mustang for the same price.

Give me a Pinto with a Dart Big M crate motor, a Hotchkis setup and a 3-link rear suspension and it will blow your Mustang away.

To me, that's what DeCastro is. And it's not like there's a Viper in the showroom here; you're right - a Mustang is about the best we're looking at with the 11. Yeah, I can build you a Pinto that would beat the piss out of that.

Nightfyre
04-15-2012, 01:58 PM
Brockers brockers brockers brockers BROCKERS!
Brockers brockers brockers brockers BROCKERS!
Brockers brockers brockers brockers BROCKERS!
http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRFmYL421-_GSWmoJ-ITzKfZz0bdGn4WTZlSw051ytt_MvcK87v
http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSItxQFLcb3wcZaReicpmizoheV-bOxMEw3xD9xhDfpbBaQjI2GMg

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR6oBE77HtBRKBEl3kdK2jeAPryvKPJd10Q_yRFiiPph9Xawn9w8A
http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTPXDFbudnnlHJ7M7rgr6c8DYwfybnWbFRSj7XnQrN8gdIFPK3RIQ
http://nflsoup.com/wp-content/themes/LondonLive/thumb.php?src=/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/Michael-Brockers.jpg&w=340&h=192&zc=1&q=100

BROCKERS!

milkman
04-15-2012, 02:01 PM
Give me a Pinto with a Dart Big M crate motor, a Hotchkis setup and a 3-link rear suspension and it will blow your Mustang away.

To me, that's what DeCastro is. And it's not like there's a Viper in the showroom here; you're right - a Mustang is about the best we're looking at with the 11. Yeah, I can build you a Pinto that would beat the piss out of that.

It's still a Pinto.

The right mechanic (coach) can make that Mustang a car that your Pinto can not compete with.

O.city
04-15-2012, 02:02 PM
If we are taking a guy that we hope the coach can make into a sports car, I'm fine with taking Poe. If that makes any sense.

Coogs
04-15-2012, 02:07 PM
Your tone setters are Eric Berry, Brandon Flowers and Jovan Belcher. We have those kinds of guys already.

Barron would do indirectly what Brockers could do directly, IMO.

I don't disagree with you that Barron would be an upgrade at SS. Then again, Carr would be an upgrade at #2 CB. At some point it becomes a question of finite resources and infinite needs. Do we really want to put two very high 1st round picks into our safeties over 3 years? Especially when Jackson is going to have a massive cap-hit next year and Dorsey is likely to walk?

If you can get Barron in the 2nd, sure - do that. But here's the thing; I think there's a good chance you can get Barron in the 2nd with Harrison Smith. If you're hell-bent on replacing Lewis, what makes Barron so much more attractive than Smith in your eyes? So much moreso that you're willing to use the 11 overall on him.

No way, I just cannot get there.

What would you think of Brockers... upside could be Richard Seymour... at number 11, and a trade of Dorsey to St. Louis for the #39 overall pick?

DJ's left nut
04-15-2012, 02:14 PM
What would you think of Brockers... upside could be Richard Seymour... at number 11, and a trade of Dorsey to St. Louis for the #39 overall pick?

I was one of the first guys to really start arguing in favor of Brockers (after initially arguing with the few that came before me).

I'd be just fine with Brockers at 11 and would love to deal Dorsey, but the Rams can't fit him under the cap.

I have no problem with losing Dorsey at all. He's exactly the kind of warm body at DE in this scheme that people are advocating having at G for us. I think upgrading to truly elite at either spot would be a huge addition to the squad.

BossChief
04-15-2012, 02:18 PM
Overall, Id rather move Dorsey to a team like Jacksonville in a deal to move up to get a shot at a franchise quarterback than any of these options, but if we are stuck at 11...Mark Barron all day.

Coogs
04-15-2012, 02:18 PM
I was one of the first guys to really start arguing in favor of Brockers (after initially arguing with the few that came before me).

I'd be just fine with Brockers at 11 and would love to deal Dorsey, but the Rams can't fit him under the cap.

I have no problem with losing Dorsey at all. He's exactly the kind of warm body at DE in this scheme that people are advocating having at G for us. I think upgrading to truly elite at either spot would be a huge addition to the squad.

I was under the impression Dorsey has 1 year left on his contract. Couldn't St. Louis trade for him, and redo his contract that would be more cap friendly and possibly work for them financially?

Coogs
04-15-2012, 02:19 PM
Overall, Id rather move Dorsey to a team like Jacksonville in a deal to move up to get a shot at a franchise quarterback than any of these options, but if we are stuck at 11...Mark Barron all day.

I just looked at a finalized Top 300 list that has Barron listed at number 39. :shrug:

http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=149&f=1547&t=8907207

His reasoning on Barron is on page 4. His last years top 330 is at the bottom of page 3.

DJ's left nut
04-15-2012, 02:21 PM
I was under the impression Dorsey has year left on his contract. Couldn't St. Louis trade for him, and redo his contract that would be more cap friendly and possibly work for them financially?

True, they could.

But they aren't going to do anything this year anyway - why would they give up a 2nd rounder for him if they're just going to give him a long-term deal similar to what would snag him on the open market?

If you're going to pay market price for the guy, there's no way you give up a 2nd for him. Not when you could just use the same 2nd on Devon Still and if Dorsey refuses to sign with you in the offseason, not be much worse off.

I think a 2nd is overstating Dorsey's value by a great deal.

BossChief
04-15-2012, 02:23 PM
I was under the impression Dorsey has year left on his contract. Couldn't St. Louis trade for him, and redo his contract that would be more cap friendly and possibly work for them financially?

a new contract would have to include a signing bonus and a lot of guaranteed money.

I think Jacksonville would be a better option for us to move up with using Dorsey.

Thy can afford him and have a need for a guy like him.

O.city
04-15-2012, 02:25 PM
I'd still like to see us add some weight to Dorsey, if he cold handle it, and move inside to NT.

Coogs
04-15-2012, 02:26 PM
a new contract would have to include a signing bonus and a lot of guaranteed money.

I think Jacksonville would be a better option for us to move up with using Dorsey.

Thy can afford him and have a need for a guy like him.

If Tannehill is the guy, then I could get on board with this.

Coogs
04-15-2012, 02:27 PM
I'd still like to see us add some weight to Dorsey, if he cold handle it, and move inside to NT.

I've been in favor of trying that too!

O.city
04-15-2012, 02:29 PM
I don't know that Dorsey's frame can handle much more, but I do seem to remember that he slimmed down a little in the last few years.


10 to 15 pounds shouldn't be that tough on him.

BossChief
04-15-2012, 02:31 PM
I think Dorsey signs a similar deal to what Winston got. I hope he is reasonable and considers signing with us long term for a smart deal.

Also, with us looking to move to more of a press man coverage and bringing more pressure...Ill revisit my 2+ year old thought of moving Dorsey to NT and using him in more 1 gap roles similar to how Jay Ratliff is used in Dallas.

Ive always thought that was his best role for us and it would allow him to use more of his natural talents to his advantage.

Coogs
04-15-2012, 02:32 PM
I don't know that Dorsey's frame can handle much more, but I do seem to remember that he slimmed down a little in the last few years.


10 to 15 pounds shouldn't be that tough on him.

I believe his LSU draft info lists him at about 15 more pounds.

O.city
04-15-2012, 02:32 PM
IIRC, the last game of the year we changed up the front a little and let Dorsey play like he did at LSU and he played really well. I'd like to see what Boss said and let him attack a C and G a little more.

Coogs
04-15-2012, 02:35 PM
I think Dorsey signs a similar deal to what Winston got. I hope he is reasonable and considers signing with us long term for a smart deal.

Also, with us looking to move to more of a press man coverage and bringing more pressure...Ill revisit my 2+ year old thought of moving Dorsey to NT and using him in more 1 gap roles similar to how Jay Ratliff is used in Dallas.

Ive always thought that was his best role for us and it would allow him to use more of his natural talents to his advantage.

Jackson and Bailey at the DE's? Or do you go Brockers?

O.city
04-15-2012, 02:36 PM
I could be alright with Brockers in that situation.

BossChief
04-15-2012, 02:44 PM
In this draft, we either need to move up or down.

The value isnt there at 11.

If we are stuck, Barron is the guy that would be the best pick for this team long term.

Even if we move Dorsey via trade or to NT, I think we can be effective with Bailey and Jackson as the starters at end and Gordon and another vet (yet to sign) as depth.

JMO

O.city
04-15-2012, 02:45 PM
If we stay at 11 I think long term Brockers is the guy.


I like Barron, but I don't see him as a whole lot better than Harrison Smith in the second.

DJ's left nut
04-15-2012, 02:46 PM
I think Dorsey signs a similar deal to what Winston got. I hope he is reasonable and considers signing with us long term for a smart deal.

Also, with us looking to move to more of a press man coverage and bringing more pressure...Ill revisit my 2+ year old thought of moving Dorsey to NT and using him in more 1 gap roles similar to how Jay Ratliff is used in Dallas.

Ive always thought that was his best role for us and it would allow him to use more of his natural talents to his advantage.

If the thought is to keep him in his present role, I don't want him back even on a Winston deal.

The defense needs to move away from 1-trick warm bodies like Glen Dorsey. He simply isn't a versatile enough player to justify being as mediocre as he is.

The team won't be elite with Glen Dorsey occupying a critical role in the offense.

O.city
04-15-2012, 02:47 PM
Again, I would like to see Dorsey move inside. Don't think it will happen, but would still like to see it.

Nightfyre
04-15-2012, 02:51 PM
Hypothetically, if we could get pick 39 with Dorsey:
11. Michael Brockers
39. Andre Branch
44. Harrison Smith
74. Alameda Ta'amu
107. Robert Turbin
146. David Molk
182. Russell Wilson
218. Chris Owusu
238. Elvis Akpla

BossChief
04-15-2012, 02:56 PM
Again, I would like to see Dorsey move inside. Don't think it will happen, but would still like to see it.

I wanted Wade phillips to get fired as Dallas' coach the year they won a playoff game (talked about it a lot during the weeks leading up to the playoffs when he was on the hot seat) so that we could pick him up to run our defense.

Moving Dorsey to NT was mostly the reason for such because of the way Jay Ratliff was used.

Hopefully one day someone uses him in that capacity because I think it would be the best use of his god given talents that got him drafted so high.

If our defensive line is

Jackson
Dorsey
Bailey

haha

If we draft Brockers we could utilize a 3 man all LSU DL next year.

Jackson
Dorsey
Brockers

and we utilize more blitzing (maybe even zone blitzing more up the middle)...we could put up one of the top 5 sack totals in the league.

I actually think we saw something towards the end of last season that makes me think thye might be moving towards this in coming years because of the talent we have.

O.city
04-15-2012, 03:00 PM
I think it was against Denver last year in the finale that we went with some different fronts and allowed Dorsey to play like he did at LSU and he had one of the better games of his career.

DJ's left nut
04-15-2012, 03:05 PM
Dorsey plays the 5 like a 0 anyway.

If you could get a 0 that has Dorsey's complete ambivalence towards driving upfield as well as a fat ass, you'd be off to a good start.

It just seems like he's a little light in his lower body to truly excel at the 0. I don't seem him as being strong enough to hold the interior, though I could be wrong.

Ultimately he looks more like a mediocre 5 than he does a legitimate 0 to me, but I'd be willing to give him the chance to prove me wrong.

BossChief
04-15-2012, 03:12 PM
Im not talking about him being a strict 2 gapping 0

Im talking about using him like Ratliff and shooting a gaps mixed with playing the 0 and 2 gapping.

LSU does that on a every game basis.

They "jump" their linemen presnap to different spots and play both 1 and 2 gap defenses.

Start Dorsey off at the 0 and shift him to either shade presnap and blitz Belcher or DJ on the opposing a.

Start him in the a gap and shift him to the zero presnap after the line calls are made.

Lots of different stuff LSU does/did that I would love to see here.

Not sure there is a 3-4 defense (LSU employs a 4-3) in the NFL that does that because Im not sure there are many guys like Dorsey that could excell at it.

Mr. Laz
04-15-2012, 06:15 PM
Dorsey plays the 5 like a 0 anyway.

If you could get a 0 that has Dorsey's complete ambivalence towards driving upfield as well as a fat ass, you'd be off to a good start.

It just seems like he's a little light in his lower body to truly excel at the 0. I don't seem him as being strong enough to hold the interior, though I could be wrong.

Ultimately he looks more like a mediocre 5 than he does a legitimate 0 to me, but I'd be willing to give him the chance to prove me wrong.
you understand that Dorsey is told by the coaches to NOT drive upfield ... right?

3-4 defenses with a 2-gap scheme don't have dline penetration until after they have protected the linebackers. It's why LB's are so important in a 3-4/2-gap scheme.

the Talking Can
04-15-2012, 06:34 PM
dorsey is a stud run defender...but assuming they are letting him go, you could probably replace him with Crick in the 2nd/3rd if you don't go brockers in the first...

the guy is dependable though, a true workhorse, and it wouldn't surprise me if they make him a lower end offer and see what his market is

we'll know after the draft what they think of him

O.city
04-16-2012, 05:24 PM
I've been giving this some thought. I think I would do this deal.


With the trade down spots, I'd grab Konz, Hightower, Still, Mercilus. Two of the four potentially if they are available.



Konz
Still
Brandon Taylor
Chapman
Pead
T.Y Hilton
Bruce Irvin
James Michael Johnson
Desmond Wynn
WR from whereever that had the great pro day.


Albert, Asamoah, Konz, Hudson, Winston up front.

Pead, Hilton, Bowe, Breaston, Baldwin, Charles, Hillis, Moeaki, Boss, McCluster as your skill guys

Still, Dorsey, Jackson, Bailey, Powe, Chapman, other NT whose name escapes me that we resigned up front on D.

DJ, Belcher, Hali, Houston, Michael Johnson, Irvin, Stude, Sheffield, Siler, at LB's.

Taylor, Berry, Flowers, Routt, Lewis, Arenas, Brown, other C's we have in the back.


Would be a pretty solid roster.

Urc Burry
04-16-2012, 06:29 PM
I've been giving this some thought. I think I would do this deal.


With the trade down spots, I'd grab Konz, Hightower, Still, Mercilus. Two of the four potentially if they are available.



Konz
Still
Brandon Taylor
Chapman
Pead
T.Y Hilton
Bruce Irvin
James Michael Johnson
Desmond Wynn
WR from whereever that had the great pro day.


Albert, Asamoah, Konz, Hudson, Winston up front.

Pead, Hilton, Bowe, Breaston, Baldwin, Charles, Hillis, Moeaki, Boss, McCluster as your skill guys

Still, Dorsey, Jackson, Bailey, Powe, Chapman, other NT whose name escapes me that we resigned up front on D.

DJ, Belcher, Hali, Houston, Michael Johnson, Irvin, Stude, Sheffield, Siler, at LB's.

Taylor, Berry, Flowers, Routt, Lewis, Arenas, Brown, other C's we have in the back.


Would be a pretty solid roster.

Bruce Irvin is going in the 2-3 round. And Konz is not a good fit in a zone blocking scheme.

O.city
04-16-2012, 06:51 PM
I think Konz is actually good enough to fit into either.

O.city
04-16-2012, 07:53 PM
I really think trading back is our best option at this point.

Urc Burry
04-16-2012, 08:04 PM
I really think trading back is our best option at this point.

I agree, this is a year where it definitely won't hurt to load up on 2nd and 3rd rounders

O.city
04-16-2012, 08:40 PM
We have a few holes that can be filled, but we really need quality depth.


That can be found, especially in this draft class, in the 2-4 rounds or even later. I wouldn't mind one bit to load up on that.

BossChief
04-16-2012, 09:59 PM
I wouldnt move back past around 20-22.

After that point the talent drops off quite a bit.

Ideally, Id like to move back to 17-20 and add a second either this or next year...maybe package a mid rounder with our 11 and get a 17-20 first this year and a first next year.

At that point, a guy like Brockers, Barron, Decastro, Kuechly, Konz, Mercilus, Kirkpatrick...shit, maybe Tannehill drops a bit and we can trade back and get him, but thats no more than a pipe dream.

That is best case scenario if we dont move up for Tannehill.

Saccopoo
04-16-2012, 11:13 PM
I wouldnt move back past around 20-22.

After that point the talent drops off quite a bit.

Ideally, Id like to move back to 17-20 and add a second either this or next year...maybe package a mid rounder with our 11 and get a 17-20 first this year and a first next year.

At that point, a guy like Brockers, Barron, Decastro, Kuechly, Konz, Mercilus, Kirkpatrick...shit, maybe Tannehill drops a bit and we can trade back and get him, but thats no more than a pipe dream.

That is best case scenario if we dont move up for Tannehill.

The problem with that is it's hard to move back for what it should be worth. You've got to be lucky, like the Browns were with last year with the Falcons moving up for Julio Jones. (Swapped firsts, a second, a fourth in 2011 and a first and a fourth in 2012. Insanity sauce.)

The Chiefs could be sitting on a couple of potential trades guys like Kuechly, DeCastro, Floyd, Reiff or Tannehill (and possibly Kirkpatrick and Martin). If those guys go before the Chiefs pick, I think we're pretty much looking at sitting pat at the #11 spot.

BossChief
04-16-2012, 11:31 PM
ALL of those guys will be available when we pick except for Tannehill.

Watch.

Shit, I bet two or three of them will still be there at 17.

DJ's left nut
04-17-2012, 09:20 AM
If I had faith that I could get Perry and Konz at the turn, I'd make the move.

Take Harrison Smith with my 2nd, Josh Chapman with my 3rd and call the first 2 days an insane success.

Pestilence
04-17-2012, 11:25 AM
Konz, Smith and Chapman would be fucking awesome.

O.city
04-17-2012, 11:27 AM
I'm starting to think I would def. do this. Trade down, grab Konz, Hightower ( who I'm starting to like more and more for our defense, is versatile, can thump, rush the passer, smart etc.) Smith, and Chapman.


Konz, Hightower, Smith, Chapman?


Fuck yes.

Chiefnj2
04-17-2012, 11:27 AM
On paper I'd like Konz and Smith, but I don't think KC is interested. I was surprised by the lack of attention they gave the G and S spots during free agency.

O.city
04-17-2012, 11:29 AM
We have brought in alot of guys to visits that are C's, G's and S's. I think we are waiting for the draft to get those guys.