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View Full Version : Education Private, for-profit colleges aren't providing careers; sucking gov't dry...


Direckshun
05-29-2012, 02:27 AM
And wrecking students financially.

But they found a way to reliably rake in government aid money, and therefore are running a goddamn racket for their shareholders.

Christ.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/25/business/us-subsidies-to-for-profit-colleges-keep-growing.html?_r=1

Colleges for Profit Are Growing, With Federal Help
By FLOYD NORRIS
Published: May 24, 2012

There are a lot of government subsidies, and in the current fiscal atmosphere many are shrinking by necessity. What appears to be lacking is any rational way of deciding which should shrink.

The volume of federally guaranteed student loans to students at so-called proprietary colleges — the ones that intend to operate at a profit and get nearly all their revenue from the government — continues to grow.

At the same time, state and local governments across the country are slashing spending on higher education, and community colleges — the ones most likely to offer alternatives to the students recruited by the far more expensive proprietary schools — are suffering some of the largest reductions.

That trend has been welcome news to the proprietary colleges. “The competitive landscape” is getting better, Kevin M. Modany, the chief executive of ITT Educational Services, one of the larger for-profit colleges, told analysts this year.

“When you look at what’s going on right now from a community college perspective,” he said, “we’re seeing a lot of state budgets being constrained. We’re seeing dollars being pulled from their budgets and they’re really capped in terms of their enrollment opportunities.”

ITT Educational, on the other hand, opened four new campuses in the first three months of this year, raising its total to 148 locations in 48 states. It expects to open at least four more later this year. It has 71,000 students enrolled.

In Washington, the Obama administration has been trying to write rules that would stop loans going to students at the most exploitative of the schools, ones whose students are most likely to default on the loans and least likely to get jobs if they graduate. The Department of Education is expected to announce within a few weeks which programs at which schools are failing, but that determination will have little immediate impact. The earliest that any school will lose financing is 2014.

ITT Educational Services, which runs ITT Technical Institute, used to be part of the international phone company known as ITT, but it was spun off years ago. It issues associate’s and bachelor’s degrees, and even some master’s degrees. Its shares trade on the New York Stock Exchange and it advertises heavily.

I got interested in ITT Tech after I watched one of its commercials, full of promise of bright career opportunities for students who sign up. At the end of the commercial, the following words flashed on the screen, in small type and for only a few seconds:

“Credits earned are unlikely to transfer.”

If you enroll in a public community college and get a two-year associate degree, you can almost certainly transfer to a four-year college and complete your bachelor’s degree in two more years. If you drop out, as many do, you can return to the same or another college years later and complete a degree. But it appears that ITT Tech students are stuck. ITT Tech will award degrees to students who complete enough classes, but any student who wants to transfer will probably have to start over.

How many students who enroll at ITT Tech go on to get a degree?

That sounds like a simple question, but it is not one that ITT Educational wants to answer.

The company does disclose a lot of numbers. But many of those numbers are not very useful. From the Web site, I learned that half the students who earn associate’s degrees in business administration do so within the normal period, while the other half take longer. For that two-year diploma, I learned that they pay an average of $48,000 in tuition and fees. Similar numbers are available for the myriad other programs ITT Tech offers. But there are no hints as to how many students actually get degrees, or how many drop out. The company would not provide any overall figures.

It did, however, point me to a government Web site that lets you check graduation rates campus by campus. Some of ITT Tech’s campuses had no information available, but the headquarters location in Indianapolis said that 16 percent of students who entered the school in 2004 earned degrees within three years of enrolling in associate degree programs or six years of enrolling in bachelor’s degree programs. In the fall of 2010, the Indianapolis campus had 7,619 undergraduate students. By the end of that school year, it had awarded 538 associate’s and 336 bachelor’s degrees. Last year, ITT Educational had revenue of $1.5 billion, of which 89 percent came directly from the government through grants and loans. Some of that money came from states, but a large majority came from Uncle Sam. Students and their parents put up about 4 percent, and 7 percent came from nongovernment loans.

Raising that 7 percent has been an issue. Last year, the company was able to arrange such nongovernment guaranteed loans by promising lenders it would repay the loans if the students did not. This year it could not renew that arrangement and is having to finance the loans itself. In effect, that means it gets less than full tuition from some students, with a promise they will pay the money later.

ITT Educational has impressive profit margins. In 2009 and 2010, pretax profits exceeded what it spent on educating students. Even in this year’s first quarter, when revenue and profits were off from a year earlier, pretax profit amounted to just under 30 percent of revenue.

The decline in earnings did not slow the flow of money to shareholders. During those three months, the company spent $135 million on education costs and paid nearly $147 million to buy back shares. Those education expenses were down 2 percent from a year earlier, while spending on share buybacks rose 5 percent. Marketing costs were up 6 percent.

All those profits would dry up and vanish were government support to wither away, but so far there is little sign of that. In the 2010-11 academic year, the government guaranteed nearly $24 billion in loans to students at proprietary schools and provided almost $9 billion more in grants. All that money went to the schools.

Critics of the schools say that many students, even those who graduate, are unable to earn enough to repay the loans. Students who attend such colleges are far more likely to default on their loans than are students who attend other types of schools.

It is far from clear whether the Obama administration’s effort to cut off loans to particularly unsuccessful schools will have much impact, or even if it will happen. A trade group of proprietary schools has filed suit to halt the rule, calling it an unjustified “regulatory excess.”

That group used to be called the Career College Association, but it changed its name to the Association of Private Sector Colleges and Universities and proudly proclaims that “the market” has determined the success of its members. If so, it is a market in which the government pays nearly all the bills but leaves students with debts many cannot pay.

Whatever the case used to be for subsidizing these highly profitable companies, it ought to be a lot less compelling now when the country is slashing subsidies for other types of schools — ones that generally do a better job for their students but that spend far less on lobbyists.

Direckshun
05-29-2012, 02:27 AM
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2012/05/25/business/25norris-graphic/25norris-graphic-articleInline.jpg

mikey23545
05-29-2012, 04:05 AM
As I talked about in another thread, about 25 years ago I worked for a proprietary college. I was in charge of the Guaranteed Student Loan program and we were pressured constantly to get students in the door, help them fill out the paperwork they needed to complete to apply for federal student loans, and get their signatures on the checks as soon as they arrived. They would have me do PA announcements asking students to come in and sign their checks, and then I would go into the classrooms and look for any students who had not responded to the announcements.

It didn't take me long to realize that almost none of these students we were signing up had a chance in hell of ever completing their degrees, or paying back the thousands of dollars they were borrowing at our behest.

I began to voice some doubts about the school's priorities to the financial aid director, and brought up the idea of spending more time talking to the students who came in to sign their lives away about what they were actually getting them selves into, even though those topics were supposedly covered by our recruiters when they were signing students up for school. I immediately became a marked man. The witch in charge of recruiting and the financial aid director both began to follow me around watching me for any signs that I was "discouraging" students from signing their student loan checks which were immediately deposited by the school. The pressure and moral disgust was such that I only lasted about a year at the school even though it was easily the highest paying job I had up to that point in my life.

I can't speak for ITT colleges, but I think in general one should be very wary of proprietary schools.

J Diddy
05-29-2012, 06:09 AM
I remember when I decided to go back to school. I first checked into Vatterot about a computer related field. What I found that the associates degree cost more than attending a community college and that if I decided to try and get a bachelors I would have to start over. I nixed that pretty quick and went the CC route. After some hard work and some good grades transfer scholarships became available and I chose to transfer to Pitt State where I picked up even more scholarships along the way. It is affordable and while I am getting financial aid, I use that money for the express purpose of paying off debts incurred from my marriage. A big chunk of which will be taken care of during the fall semester. After I get there I will take out the bare minimum in loans. With the Pell grant the schooling itself is paid for so all I need is the cash to provide for my son and I. I can easily accomplish that after all the other debts (save the loans to date) are paid off by working part time.

Saul Good
05-29-2012, 07:27 AM
These schools are a joke. I view them as the payday loans of the educational world. That said, their students probably aren't exactly the best and the brightest in the first place, so that might account for part of the chasm here.

Chiefshrink
05-29-2012, 07:44 AM
As I talked about in another thread, about 25 years ago I worked for a proprietary college. I was in charge of the Guaranteed Student Loan program and we were pressured constantly to get students in the door, help them fill out the paperwork they needed to complete to apply for federal student loans, and get their signatures on the checks as soon as they arrived. They would have me do PA announcements asking students to come in and sign their checks, and then I would go into the classrooms and look for any students who had not responded to the announcements.

It didn't take me long to realize that almost none of these students we were signing up had a chance in hell of ever completing their degrees, or paying back the thousands of dollars they were borrowing at our behest.

I began to voice some doubts about the school's priorities to the financial aid director, and brought up the idea of spending more time talking to the students who came in to sign their lives away about what they were actually getting them selves into, even though those topics were supposedly covered by our recruiters when they were signing students up for school. I immediately became a marked man. The witch in charge of recruiting and the financial aid director both began to follow me around watching me for any signs that I was "discouraging" students from signing their student loan checks which were immediately deposited by the school. The pressure and moral disgust was such that I only lasted about a year at the school even though it was easily the highest paying job I had up to that point in my life.

I can't speak for ITT colleges, but I think in general one should be very wary of proprietary schools.

Trade schools basically ??

Saul Good
05-29-2012, 08:08 AM
Trade schools basically ??

No, for-profit schools.

Direckshun
05-29-2012, 08:25 AM
These schools are a joke. I view them as the payday loans of the educational world.

Amen.

Chiefshrink
05-29-2012, 08:27 AM
No, for-profit schools.

Last I checked, trade schools are for-profit.

Cave Johnson
05-29-2012, 08:38 AM
Mikey, wanna guess which candidate opposes for-profit education reform? Hint, it's the guy with a son running a PE firm investing in the industry.

Nor did Romney tell voters about the private equity fund Solamere Capital, which is run by Mitt’s son Tagg Romney and Spencer Zwick, who also serves as the top fundraiser on the Romney campaign staff. Solamere was launched with a $10 million investment from Mitt and Ann Romney, and Mitt also has provided strategic advice. Solamere Capital offered its clients a stake in TA Associates, which owns not just Full Sail but a number of for-profit schools, including troubled Vatterott Colleges, marked by exploitative recruiting practices and high student loan defaults.

http://www.alternet.org/education/155603/romney_attacks_student_loan_reform,_touts_for-profit_colleges?page=entire

BucEyedPea
05-29-2012, 08:47 AM
The entire student loan/federal aid program is driving up higher ed costs. It's the next bubble that's going to burst. So long as these schools, and others, can get this money, they don't have to compete through prices or even quality. They can just keep jacking up the price. Student aid office in any college is a racket. I've seen how they operate where I've taught as an adjunct.

Ace Gunner
05-29-2012, 09:34 AM
this is just another symptom of a centralized problem -- crooks in charge put more crooks in charge.

fan4ever
05-29-2012, 10:18 AM
Iv'e been waiting for years for someone (the government?) to do something about these colleges; they are criminal IMO and they are EVERYWHERE!!!

And how do they legally get to call what they give these kids a BACHELOR'S DEGREE? How does THAT happen?

fan4ever
05-29-2012, 10:27 AM
Part of the issue with these schools is their lies about placement. One of the graphic design schools here in PHX says they have like a 93% placement rate. What they don't tell these kids, who often rack up $50,000 to $60,000 in debt, is that working at Kinko's operating a copy machine qualifies as placement in the industry. Scumbags. It also has a negative effect on people established in the industry; people are offering to do logos for $25.00 because they are desperate therefore impacting the earning opportunity for qualified designers/artists.

Cave Johnson
05-29-2012, 10:27 AM
Iv'e been waiting for years for someone (the government?) to do something about these colleges; they are criminal IMO and they are EVERYWHERE!!!

And how do they legally get to call what they give these kids a BACHELOR'S DEGREE? How does THAT happen?

Because they're not held to any sort of performance standards. The current administration is phasing in a gainful employment rule for these "educators". Romney wants to repeal the regulation.

But, according to R crazy town banana pants logic, Obama is the irresponsible politician.

fan4ever
05-29-2012, 10:28 AM
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2012/05/25/business/25norris-graphic/25norris-graphic-articleInline.jpg

I'm actually surprised this graphic isn't more lopsided.

mikey23545
05-29-2012, 10:32 AM
Mikey, wanna guess which candidate opposes for-profit education reform? Hint, it's the guy with a son running a PE firm investing in the industry.

\

Just stop your stupidity and quit acting like you got your education at a proprietary school.

I could post all day about Obama's dealings with characters you slam all the time (despite all his attempts to cover up his past).

Cave Johnson
05-29-2012, 10:36 AM
Just stop your stupidity and quit acting like you got your education at a proprietary school.

I could post all day about Obama's dealings with characters you slam all the time (despite all his attempts to cover up his past).

I don't give 2 flying f**ks about his associations. The fact remains he's attempted to regulate the industry through a gainful employment requirement, and Romney opposes it.

Pssttt, it's ok not to like every position your guy takes, or try to rationalize it away. Only crazy people do that.

Garcia Bronco
05-29-2012, 11:50 AM
If the ads for your school spams at 2 am..you might be attending a school that lacks in cred.

vailpass
05-29-2012, 11:56 AM
Iv'e been waiting for years for someone (the government?) to do something about these colleges; they are criminal IMO and they are EVERYWHERE!!!

And how do they legally get to call what they give these kids a BACHELOR'S DEGREE? How does THAT happen?

Yep. "UOP" or "Grand Canyon University" online degrees are pimped really hard here in the Valley as I'm sure you've noticed. Craziness.

Ace Gunner
05-29-2012, 01:37 PM
Iv'e been waiting for years for someone (the government?) to do something about these colleges; they are criminal IMO and they are EVERYWHERE!!!

And how do they legally get to call what they give these kids a BACHELOR'S DEGREE? How does THAT happen?

it would be very interesting to find names of those financing these "institutions".

of course, nothing will be done because outsourcing and foreign HR is the way of america!


meanwhile in vietnam;


Private schools found to offer fake degrees

HCM CITY — Seven private educational institutions have been illegally offering courses, affiliating themselves with foreign colleges and granting degrees without authorisation, an inspection by the Ministry of Education and Training has revealed.

The ministry has released the names of these institutions, including universities, foreign language centres and specialised training schools.

They are: College of Business Administration and Management (CBAM); the Ha Noi Open University; FTMS Training Co Ltd; Hoa Sen University; Institute of Finance and Administration (IFA); Melior Business School Viet Nam Co Ltd; and Singapore Informatics and Business Management Education Company Ltd (SIBME).

The HCM City-based CBAM, SIBME, FTMS and Melior have been conducting degree programmes without licences.

The Ha Noi Open University has been enrolling students for graduate programmes in co-operation with Australian Box Hill Institute of Technology although the co-operative agreement between the two schools has been invalid since late last year.

Hoa Sen University, in collaboration with French Vatel International Hotel and Tourism Management School, is offering bachelor's degree in international hotel management, which has not been licensed by the ministry.

The IFA has been licensed by the HCM City Department of Education and Training to provide English language training, but the institute has enrolled students for a Master's programme in business administration.

Deputy Chief Inspector of the ministry Pham Ngoc Truc said the ministry has required the seven institutions to stop all their illegal activities, including advertising, enrolling and training students in unauthorised programmes.

These schools would be fined for their violations accordingly, he said.

Specifically, the CBAM would face a fine of VND62 million (US$2970), the Ha Noi Open University would face VND7.5 million ($360), Hoa Sen University VND32 million ($1,530), Melior and SIBME VND67.5 million ($3,240) and FTMS VND10 million ($480).

In terms of the benefits of students, Truc said the ministry's Educational Quality Examination and Verification division has considered the recognition of degrees granted by the illegal training programmes to assure the benefits of graduates.

However, he said, these degrees might be refused by the ministry in worst situation.

For those studying at these violating units, the ministry has required the schools to refund tuition fees, he said.

About 900 students were reportedly studying at violating units.

The ministry's International Education Development Department is sending a letter to the embassies of relevant countries to inform them of the companies' wrongdoings.

Truc suggested that students should consult the legality of private schools on the ministry's website www.vied.vn in which the names of licensed schools were posted on to avoid unexpected circumstances.

Previously, ERC Institute Viet Nam, Raffles International College and ILA Viet Nam were forced to stop training students due to educational violations, affecting hundreds of students. — VNS

http://vietnamnews.vnagency.com.vn/social-issues/225316/private-schools-found-to-offer-fake-degrees.html

luv
05-29-2012, 01:42 PM
I went to Vatterott. I would never recommend it to anyone. Between the certificate program and my associate degree, I have approximately $38,000 in student loans. Also, my associate is an Associate of Occupational Studies. Is that even legit?

And there are people going there that qualify for grants (I did not). That gives them $5,000 extra to get in the federal loans. They basically live off of that. And there are people that keep going there to study something else. Why? "Free" money. Hello? You have to pay that shit back once you graduate.

I wish I could have done something similar at a different college. I think Drury offers a Paralegal course.

J Diddy
05-29-2012, 04:52 PM
I went to Vatterott. I would never recommend it to anyone. Between the certificate program and my associate degree, I have approximately $38,000 in student loans. Also, my associate is an Associate of Occupational Studies. Is that even legit?

And there are people going there that qualify for grants (I did not). That gives them $5,000 extra to get in the federal loans. They basically live off of that. And there are people that keep going there to study something else. Why? "Free" money. Hello? You have to pay that shit back once you graduate.

I wish I could have done something similar at a different college. I think Drury offers a Paralegal course.

You are $38k in debt with an associates degree? Ouch.

Deberg_1990
05-29-2012, 05:29 PM
I went to Vatterott. I would never recommend it to anyone. Between the certificate program and my associate degree, I have approximately $38,000 in student loans. Also, my associate is an Associate of Occupational Studies. Is that even legit?

And there are people going there that qualify for grants (I did not). That gives them $5,000 extra to get in the federal loans. They basically live off of that. And there are people that keep going there to study something else. Why? "Free" money. Hello? You have to pay that shit back once you graduate.

I wish I could have done something similar at a different college. I think Drury offers a Paralegal course.

Thanks for being honest. That sucks

Brock
05-29-2012, 05:44 PM
I went to Vatterott. I would never recommend it to anyone. Between the certificate program and my associate degree, I have approximately $38,000 in student loans. Also, my associate is an Associate of Occupational Studies. Is that even legit?.

Dear freaking god. :facepalm:

vailpass
05-29-2012, 05:51 PM
Dear freaking god. :facepalm:

Which is why there needs to be some very serious consideration given to modifying the regulation of federal student loan eligibility for these "schools".

loochy
05-29-2012, 05:53 PM
Between the certificate program and my associate degree, I have approximately $38,000 in student loans.

Good lord you should have just went to actual law school.

J Diddy
05-30-2012, 12:25 AM
Good lord you should have just went to actual law school.

You have a very unrealistic view of the cost of law school.

J Diddy
05-30-2012, 12:28 AM
Which is why there needs to be some very serious consideration given to modifying the regulation of federal student loan eligibility for these "schools".

This. To be honest, I was one of those people. They advertise well. The thing that got me thinking is that the best I could do was an associates degree with no hope of transfer credits. I felt that I'd be selling my soul on one opportunity and if it didn't pan out, I'd be hopelessly in debt with no recourse.

Like I said, they advertise well. They know what to say to non trads who are fed up with the way life is going.

Bump
05-30-2012, 12:31 AM
YOU GUYS JUST WANT EVERYTHING FOR FREE LAZY ENTITLED PEOPLE

/the dipshits who roam these here parts

Pitt Gorilla
05-30-2012, 01:33 AM
I actually ran into a guy that works for one of these "schools." His job is to go around looking for legitimate (private) colleges that may be close to going belly-up. Once they work out the deal, the new (mostly or entirely online) college gets to use the accreditations of the dying school. It's really slimy.

BryanBusby
05-30-2012, 03:13 AM
The best part is after people get financially raped by these "high-quality" learning institutions, they aren't going to land a job because the people doing the hiring is going to laugh when they see "ITT student" on the resume and file it directly into a trash can.

We refer to those schools as "degree mills"

loochy
05-30-2012, 10:51 AM
You have a very unrealistic view of the cost of law school.

http://www.law.smu.edu/Registrar/Tuition-and-Fees.aspx

http://www.utexas.edu/law/academics/degrees/llm/tuition.html

I think that the cost/reward ration favors law school...even in the case of the private school.

DaKCMan AP
05-30-2012, 11:00 AM
I actually ran into a guy that works for one of these "schools." His job is to go around looking for legitimate (private) colleges that may be close to going belly-up. Once they work out the deal, the new (mostly or entirely online) college gets to use the accreditations of the dying school. It's really slimy.

The best part is after people get financially raped by these "high-quality" learning institutions, they aren't going to land a job because the people doing the hiring is going to laugh when they see "ITT student" on the resume and file it directly into a trash can.

We refer to those schools as "degree mills"



Yep. It's disgusting.

If anyone wants to know more watch the documentary College, Inc.

loochy
05-30-2012, 11:02 AM
At the same time, I can't believe that people wouldn't do a little research into something that they were about to spend a ton of money on...

Cave Johnson
05-30-2012, 11:31 AM
http://www.law.smu.edu/Registrar/Tuition-and-Fees.aspx

http://www.utexas.edu/law/academics/degrees/llm/tuition.html

I think that the cost/reward ration favors law school...even in the case of the private school.

Not if you're one of the 50+% that won't be hired as lawyers.

Approximately half of the 45,000 people who will graduate this year from ABA-accredited law schools will never find jobs as lawyers. (The Bureau of Labor Statistics estimates that over the next decade 21,000 new jobs for lawyers will become available each year, via growth and outflow from the profession.)

Most of those who do find jobs will be making between $30,000 and $60,000 per year.

http://www.salon.com/2012/05/15/debt_not_just_for_undergrads/

qabbaan
05-30-2012, 11:45 AM
The best part is after people get financially raped by these "high-quality" learning institutions, they aren't going to land a job because the people doing the hiring is going to laugh when they see "ITT student" on the resume and file it directly into a trash can.

We refer to those schools as "degree mills"

University of Phoenix
DeVry
Etc

vailpass
05-30-2012, 11:46 AM
Yep. It's disgusting.

If anyone wants to know more watch the documentary College, Inc.

Scottsdale/Cave Creek are home to several mega-pigs who got fat at the trough of University of Phoenix. Grand Canyon University here in the Valley is another online degree mill that dupes 35,000+ online loan takers. GCU takes the Christian angle which opens a whole other market to them. They sucker in military, native American and other groups that have special government education status.

fan4ever
05-30-2012, 01:27 PM
Scottsdale/Cave Creek are home to several mega-pigs who got fat at the trough of University of Phoenix. Grand Canyon University here in the Valley is another online degree mill that dupes 35,000+ online loan takers. GCU takes the Christian angle which opens a whole other market to them. They sucker in military, native American and other groups that have special government education status.

At one time DeVry was a legitimate school; twenty or more years ago, and I didn't realize GCU was of this ilk; they were sending my recent graduate all sorts of crap...good thing we'd already planned he's going to a community college and then transferring to a state university.

fan4ever
05-30-2012, 01:30 PM
At the same time, I can't believe that people wouldn't do a little research into something that they were about to spend a ton of money on...

Ever see their ads?

"Hey, that's a great sketch! You could design album covers!

Hey, that's a great pizza! You could be an award winning chef!

Hey, you're great at playing video games! You should be creating them."

They're not exactly targeting the kind of kids who'd be likely to do any kind of research...

vailpass
05-30-2012, 01:45 PM
At one time DeVry was a legitimate school; twenty or more years ago, and I didn't realize GCU was of this ilk; they were sending my recent graduate all sorts of crap...good thing we'd already planned he's going to a community college and then transferring to a state university.

GCU has a small ground campus that has been around for 40 years or so, down in the ghetto on 30th ave and Camelback. Approx. 2500 ground students and approx. 35,000 online students. Nice new building all paid for with online student loan $$.
Their big pitch is the Christian angle. Their ground campus tuition is outrageous for what you get.Your plan sounds MUCH better. Congrats on getting your kid through high school and into college.

HonestChieffan
05-30-2012, 01:50 PM
Not if you're one of the 50+% that won't be hired as lawyers.



http://www.salon.com/2012/05/15/debt_not_just_for_undergrads/


From my view 50% are probably all that can do the job and 50% of them won't do it well.

Stewie
05-30-2012, 01:56 PM
This is interesting. My company only looks for applicants from legitimate accredited schools. DeVry, ITT, UofP, NationalAmerican, or any other BS "institution of higher learning" doesn't get a look.

Instead of coming down on these scumbags schools, it's easier to come down on their accrediting bodies. Shutting them down is problem solved.

Rain Man
05-30-2012, 02:02 PM
it would be very interesting to find names of those financing these "institutions".

of course, nothing will be done because outsourcing and foreign HR is the way of america!


meanwhile in vietnam;


Private schools found to offer fake degrees

HCM CITY ó Seven private educational institutions have been illegally offering courses, affiliating themselves with foreign colleges and granting degrees without authorisation, an inspection by the Ministry of Education and Training has revealed.

The ministry has released the names of these institutions, including universities, foreign language centres and specialised training schools.

They are: College of Business Administration and Management (CBAM); the Ha Noi Open University; FTMS Training Co Ltd; Hoa Sen University; Institute of Finance and Administration (IFA); Melior Business School Viet Nam Co Ltd; and Singapore Informatics and Business Management Education Company Ltd (SIBME).

The HCM City-based CBAM, SIBME, FTMS and Melior have been conducting degree programmes without licences.

The Ha Noi Open University has been enrolling students for graduate programmes in co-operation with Australian Box Hill Institute of Technology although the co-operative agreement between the two schools has been invalid since late last year.

Hoa Sen University, in collaboration with French Vatel International Hotel and Tourism Management School, is offering bachelor's degree in international hotel management, which has not been licensed by the ministry.

The IFA has been licensed by the HCM City Department of Education and Training to provide English language training, but the institute has enrolled students for a Master's programme in business administration.

Deputy Chief Inspector of the ministry Pham Ngoc Truc said the ministry has required the seven institutions to stop all their illegal activities, including advertising, enrolling and training students in unauthorised programmes.

These schools would be fined for their violations accordingly, he said.

Specifically, the CBAM would face a fine of VND62 million (US$2970), the Ha Noi Open University would face VND7.5 million ($360), Hoa Sen University VND32 million ($1,530), Melior and SIBME VND67.5 million ($3,240) and FTMS VND10 million ($480).

In terms of the benefits of students, Truc said the ministry's Educational Quality Examination and Verification division has considered the recognition of degrees granted by the illegal training programmes to assure the benefits of graduates.

However, he said, these degrees might be refused by the ministry in worst situation.

For those studying at these violating units, the ministry has required the schools to refund tuition fees, he said.

About 900 students were reportedly studying at violating units.

The ministry's International Education Development Department is sending a letter to the embassies of relevant countries to inform them of the companies' wrongdoings.

Truc suggested that students should consult the legality of private schools on the ministry's website www.vied.vn in which the names of licensed schools were posted on to avoid unexpected circumstances.

Previously, ERC Institute Viet Nam, Raffles International College and ILA Viet Nam were forced to stop training students due to educational violations, affecting hundreds of students. ó VNS

http://vietnamnews.vnagency.com.vn/social-issues/225316/private-schools-found-to-offer-fake-degrees.html


Dang it. I'm only three weeks from finishing my doctorate at Hoa Sen University. I've been working my tail off for seven weeks, and now I'm not going to get my degree?

fan4ever
05-30-2012, 02:43 PM
When I was art director at a design studio we put out an ad for hire...and an instructor from "Collin's College" came in for an interview. The "instructor" was unqualified for the starting level job.

loochy
05-30-2012, 03:08 PM
Not if you're one of the 50+% that won't be hired as lawyers.



http://www.salon.com/2012/05/15/debt_not_just_for_undergrads/

Well you'd better try harder then.

loochy
05-30-2012, 03:10 PM
Ever see their ads?

"Hey, that's a great sketch! You could design album covers!

Hey, that's a great pizza! You could be an award winning chef!

Hey, you're great at playing video games! You should be creating them."

They're not exactly targeting the kind of kids who'd be likely to do any kind of research...

That's the first warning sign though! Who wants to go to a college that has tv commercials?

loochy
05-30-2012, 03:11 PM
This is interesting. My company only looks for applicants from legitimate accredited schools. DeVry, ITT, UofP, NationalAmerican, or any other BS "institution of higher learning" doesn't get a look.

Instead of coming down on these scumbags schools, it's easier to come down on their accrediting bodies. Shutting them down is problem solved.

You mentioned DeVry...for some reason I thought that they were actually legit and decent, but they just got a bad name from their TV ads.

Radar Chief
05-30-2012, 03:17 PM
You mentioned DeVry...for some reason I thought that they were actually legit and decent, but they just got a bad name from their TV ads.

I work with a DeVry grad, heís pretty bright and knows his stuff. :shrug:

qabbaan
05-30-2012, 03:38 PM
I know Dreck is very happy with the way his thread is going, after all, the overall theme is "business evil! Save us gubment!" in line with all his other threads

In reality these are a tiny sliver of the market for higher Ed. If you want to know why it costs so much, look at the government interference in the market. Providing basically free credit to most anyone causes prices to soar? Who would have thought? It makes you wonder if anyone complaining about tuition ever spend any of it on an economics class.

If you want to know why no one can afford it, look at the opulent campuses, the boutique degree programs, the artificially high salaries academics command.

I know that to the left, higher Ed is their primary tool of indoctrination, and living and working in the post-undergrad real world is the antidote - and thus they could never be expected to move on this. (people might be able to get jobs without letting us indoctrinate them for four years? And without paying our donors to study underwater basketweaving? Horror! ) Career skills oriented education is threatening to them. If they lose the people paying $50k for a theatre degree the whole system starts down.

There is a bubble in higher education; same as the housing bubble and with some of the same government meddling being at fault. Loans being issued to anyone without any regard to ability to repay. It's unsustainable.

Sorry Dreck but your latest attempt to blame People More Successful Than Me for all the worlds problems is a failure. PMSTM are not to blame for this, nor are these sucker-shearing diploma mills.

VAChief
05-30-2012, 04:00 PM
At one time DeVry was a legitimate school; twenty or more years ago, and I didn't realize GCU was of this ilk; they were sending my recent graduate all sorts of crap...good thing we'd already planned he's going to a community college and then transferring to a state university.

That can be a smart avenue for your kids, especially if there is any doubt about their maturity level. In Virginia, a lot of the top programs UVA, Tech, JMU, William & Mary will accept you if you put two full years in at several of the community colleges (and maintain a B average).

If they don't have success, you haven't wasted big bucks, if they do get that B average, they are probably going to put forth the effort necessary to graduate at the next level (and from top notch Universities that will give them a leg up on competition in most fields).

Iowanian
05-30-2012, 04:01 PM
It's time to stop pretending that everyone is smart enough and prepared enough to go to college and herd some of the slower buffalo to the shovel ready jobs line.

qabbaan
05-30-2012, 04:05 PM
It's time to stop pretending that everyone is smart enough and prepared enough to go to college and herd some of the slower buffalo to the shovel ready jobs line.

I agree. There are plenty of ways to make a good living in a skilled trade. A lot better than you are going to be doing with your English degree or your History degree. (if you care about money, if you say you don't then you shouldn't complain later)

There is going to be a lack of people in these jobs soon, and salaries will probably just improve.

We need people who do good work in trades like plumbing, electrical, HVAC, etc etc. a lot of people in that business are getting up there in years.

J Diddy
05-30-2012, 05:02 PM
http://www.law.smu.edu/Registrar/Tuition-and-Fees.aspx

http://www.utexas.edu/law/academics/degrees/llm/tuition.html

I think that the cost/reward ration favors law school...even in the case of the private school.

I am planning to go to law school. The job market is incredibly sticky right now, so I'm hoping that by the time I graduate from it (about 5 years) the market will be cleared up. However, $38k in debt from an associates degree compared to $38,000 yearly tuition only is not comparable by any means, way shape or form.

J Diddy
05-30-2012, 05:04 PM
That's the first warning sign though! Who wants to go to a college that has tv commercials?

Virtually all schools have a tv commercial in one way shape or another.

loochy
05-30-2012, 05:10 PM
Virtually all schools have a tv commercial in one way shape or another.

Yeah, I can't stand all of those Harvard TV commercials. :rolleyes: You know what I mean.

J Diddy
05-30-2012, 05:10 PM
I agree. There are plenty of ways to make a good living in a skilled trade. A lot better than you are going to be doing with your English degree or your History degree. (if you care about money, if you say you don't then you shouldn't complain later)

There is going to be a lack of people in these jobs soon, and salaries will probably just improve.

We need people who do good work in trades like plumbing, electrical, HVAC, etc etc. a lot of people in that business are getting up there in years.

Which is one of the things they mentioned in a mandatory intro to technology course I had to take. One of the assignments was to look at our degree and check the annual wages of recent grads. Not a pretty picture. Listed as the highest area of need was in medical and basically told us that if we wanted to be assured a good living to get an associates degree in an applied field. However, that doesn't bode well with the typical teenager attending college. They think a degree will get them a corner office with a view and a hot young secretary who will do anything for that raise. Not the real world. Hell half of them can't even be on time for class if they even go at all (admittedly more prevalent in community college.)

With me I have a skill I can fall back on. I have the 15+ years managing restaurants to fall back on, the degree will only help my marketability.

loochy
05-30-2012, 05:12 PM
I am planning to go to law school. The job market is incredibly sticky right now, so I'm hoping that by the time I graduate from it (about 5 years) the market will be cleared up. However, $38k in debt from an associates degree compared to $38,000 yearly tuition only is not comparable by any means, way shape or form.

I agree. That associate was a real steal.

J Diddy
05-30-2012, 05:15 PM
Yeah, I can't stand all of those Harvard TV commercials. :rolleyes:

First, I said virtually all. Second, with a school that is world renowned and consistently top 10 of course not. They reject people left and right. If they wanted someone bad enough they would go get them and people would die to get in. I'm not talking Ivy league here. Hell KU has billboards up in Pittsburg.

loochy
05-30-2012, 05:22 PM
First, I said virtually all. Second, with a school that is world renowned and consistently top 10 of course not. They reject people left and right. If they wanted someone bad enough they would go get them and people would die to get in. I'm not talking Ivy league here. Hell KU has billboards up in Pittsburg.

You knew what I meant. I know that KU doesn't have repetitious commercials during every break in daytime TV. There's a big difference in how DeVry (and UofP) presents itself and how "normal" colleges present themselves.

J Diddy
05-30-2012, 05:23 PM
I agree. That associate was a real steal.

First the tuition for that degree is approximately 11k a year. I assume the rest were extra loans taken out. $11k a year vs $38k a year. Sure one is worth a lot more than another, but one is an associate's degree and the other a jd. Second you need a bachelors degree to get a jd degree. Third none of her credits will transfer to get that bachelor.

Are you getting my point finally?

J Diddy
05-30-2012, 05:27 PM
You knew what I meant. I know that KU doesn't have repetitious commercials during every break in daytime TV. There's a big difference in how DeVry (and UofP) presents itself and how "normal" colleges present themselves.

That is not what you said. You said, "who'd want to go to a college with commercials?" Obviously, there is a huge difference in the way that Vatterot recruits vs. KU, however KU still recruits via commercial and other media.
)

loochy
05-30-2012, 05:35 PM
That is not what you said. You said, "who'd want to go to a college with commercials?" Obviously, there is a huge difference in the way that Vatterot recruits vs. KU, however KU still recruits via commercial and other media.
)

I'm not arguing with you anymore because you obviously just want to argue.

Discuss Thrower
05-30-2012, 06:21 PM
I am planning to go to law school. The job market is incredibly sticky right now, so I'm hoping that by the time I graduate from it (about 5 years) the market will be cleared up. However, $38k in debt from an associates degree compared to $38,000 yearly tuition only is not comparable by any means, way shape or form.

Braver man than I. I bailed out on my law school plans my 4th year of college. 5th I unwisely decided I'd like to be a sportswriter, which means I'm going for a 6th year.

In all honesty I figured I was going to be buttfucked by the LSAT, and the fact a fraternity brother hated his job as a lawyer pretty much sold me off.

Now I have not the faintest clue as to what I'm going to do.

As for the topic of degree mills writ large.. well that's only one portion. Even legitimate colleges are part of the problem in accepting unqualified applicants for one reason or another.

J Diddy
05-30-2012, 06:36 PM
Braver man than I. I bailed out on my law school plans my 4th year of college. 5th I unwisely decided I'd like to be a sportswriter, which means I'm going for a 6th year.

In all honesty I figured I was going to be butt****ed by the LSAT, and the fact a fraternity brother hated his job as a lawyer pretty much sold me off.

Now I have not the faintest clue as to what I'm going to do.

As for the topic of degree mills writ large.. well that's only one portion. Even legitimate colleges are part of the problem in accepting unqualified applicants for one reason or another.

I'm leaving myself plenty of outs as I am going to grad school either way. My degree will be a bachelor of arts in psychology with a minor in philosophy. If the LSAT kills me then I go another route.

banyon
05-30-2012, 07:17 PM
From my view 50% are probably all that can do the job and 50% of them won't do it well.

This is probably accurate.

fan4ever
05-30-2012, 10:09 PM
That can be a smart avenue for your kids, especially if there is any doubt about their maturity level. In Virginia, a lot of the top programs UVA, Tech, JMU, William & Mary will accept you if you put two full years in at several of the community colleges (and maintain a B average).

If they don't have success, you haven't wasted big bucks, if they do get that B average, they are probably going to put forth the effort necessary to graduate at the next level (and from top notch Universities that will give them a leg up on competition in most fields).

It makes sense in a lot of ways; all of what you mention being included. I was a transfer student, paid my own way through college and worked while doing it. While my son is in a much better scenario than I ever was, I plan on him doing much of the same. If he's having to pay for some of his own education I feel he'll be more invested and care more about how he does.

Iowanian
05-31-2012, 08:05 AM
I know the few resumes I have received from the online or Jerry Springer advertisement degrees always scream "slacker" to me and are round-filed immediately.

Colleges should be responsible and have a dunk tank heckler to let people know about their job prospects with about half of the degrees offered. If you're going to get a useless degree, just go get a factory job and get it over with early.

Graystoke
05-31-2012, 09:22 AM
I know the few resumes I have received from the online or Jerry Springer advertisement degrees always scream "slacker" to me and are round-filed immediately.

Colleges should be responsible and have a dunk tank heckler to let people know about their job prospects with about half of the degrees offered. If you're going to get a useless degree, just go get a factory job and get it over with early.

Or be a smart ass bartender

Brock
05-31-2012, 09:29 AM
I'm working for an hourly wage. I went to high school, didn't do great. Still I gotta make more cash, more education is what I'm looking at. When I get a degree, I will make a bigger salary.
So now I got to see, which college is right for me. I went on the Internet and found Education Con-nec-tion. I took some free tests to find out my direction. I'm takin' my classes online, gettin' my degree on my on time. Education Connection matched me with the right college for free.

GET CONNECTED, FOR FREE (free) with Education Connection.

GET CONNECTED, FOR FREE (free) with Education Connection.

Saul Good
05-31-2012, 09:39 AM
I'm leaving myself plenty of outs as I am going to grad school either way. My degree will be a bachelor of arts in psychology with a minor in philosophy. If the LSAT kills me then I go another route.

That philosophy minor is less marketable now that most philosophy companies have been moved overseas.

blaise
05-31-2012, 09:48 AM
Regarding the 50% of law school grads not working as lawyers:
I've known quite a few people that graduated law school and work, but don't work as a lawyer. They've gone to law school and have an MBA or a business degree and work in a bank or financial institution. Or they'll run some sort of consulting firm. But I don't think you'd say their occupation is attorney.

And something else I've noticed that's sort of weird- a husband and wife will both be attorneys and the wife will stay at home with the kids. It's like some weird status symbol. I know two couples who do that. She has a law degree and is a stay at home mom.

fan4ever
05-31-2012, 10:36 AM
I'm working for an hourly wage. I went to high school, didn't do great. Still I gotta make more cash, more education is what I'm looking at. When I get a degree, I will make a bigger salary.
So now I got to see, which college is right for me. I went on the Internet and found Education Con-nec-tion. I took some free tests to find out my direction. I'm takin' my classes online, gettin' my degree on my on time. Education Connection matched me with the right college for free.

GET CONNECTED, FOR FREE (free) with Education Connection.

GET CONNECTED, FOR FREE (free) with Education Connection.

That reads like a rap song; is that what you were going for?

Radar Chief
05-31-2012, 10:39 AM
That reads like a rap song; is that what you were going for?

Iím guessing itís a radio commercial.

Brock
05-31-2012, 10:41 AM
That reads like a rap song; is that what you were going for?

It's a brutally awful TV commercial that's on late at night.

J Diddy
05-31-2012, 02:47 PM
That philosophy minor is less marketable now that most philosophy companies have been moved overseas.

That philosophy minor is in preparation for law school.

J Diddy
05-31-2012, 02:49 PM
It's a brutally awful TV commercial that's on late at night.

Agreed.

It needs a disclaimer that reads "if this commercial, and this commercial alone, convinced you to go back to school---don't do it. You'll just be wasting your time and getting in debt."

vailpass
05-31-2012, 04:02 PM
That philosophy minor is less marketable now that most philosophy companies have been moved overseas.

LMAO

La literatura
05-31-2012, 05:14 PM
That philosophy minor is in preparation for law school.

Minor in finance or economics, or something more practical. Honestly, I know philosophy is supposedly common for law schools, but I know just one single philosophy major in my class of 200, and he's a silver-spooned drifter. Don't do it. Get a minor (or better yet, a major) that is involved with business, because those feature problem-solving. And if the LSAT does kill you, then you have something more practical to fall back on than philosophy/psychology.

Just my .02

La literatura
05-31-2012, 05:22 PM
Not if you're one of the 50+% that won't be hired as lawyers.



http://www.salon.com/2012/05/15/debt_not_just_for_undergrads/

And the ABA needs to really discredit some of these schools, because a lot of them are just raking in the money and sending people out with almost no possible hope of ever seriously getting out of their non-dischargeable student loan. It's a sign of a profession eating itself to death.

banyon
05-31-2012, 05:31 PM
Minor in finance or economics, or something more practical. Honestly, I know philosophy is supposedly common for law schools, but I know just one single philosophy major in my class of 200, and he's a silver-spooned drifter. Don't do it. Get a minor (or better yet, a major) that is involved with business, because those feature problem-solving. And if the LSAT does kill you, then you have something more practical to fall back on than philosophy/psychology.

Just my .02

Respectfully, I dissent. Philosophy is a fine minor for law. Training myself in reason and argument, particularly, continues to give me significant advantages even in my job today. Wouldn't judge its usefulness by its commonality in your class. If anything, you want to stand out from those mindless zombie hordes somehow.

Of course, I went a lot further than a minor.

J Diddy
05-31-2012, 05:46 PM
And the ABA needs to really discredit some of these schools, because a lot of them are just raking in the money and sending people out with almost no possible hope of ever seriously getting out of their non-dischargeable student loan. It's a sign of a profession eating itself to death.

It's all about the law school and your goals.

J Diddy
05-31-2012, 05:53 PM
Minor in finance or economics, or something more practical. Honestly, I know philosophy is supposedly common for law schools, but I know just one single philosophy major in my class of 200, and he's a silver-spooned drifter. Don't do it. Get a minor (or better yet, a major) that is involved with business, because those feature problem-solving. And if the LSAT does kill you, then you have something more practical to fall back on than philosophy/psychology.

Just my .02

I will take my LSAT in the spring. After that I will know exactly where I stand. With that being said, the Psychology is a lock because of the opportunities it gives me in preparing for grad school and where. Philosophy is a lock as well as banyon said critical thinking and logic. If I fail miserably on the LSAT (which I don't intend to,) I will have more than enough time to get a double minor as well with very little cost.

La literatura
05-31-2012, 05:55 PM
Respectfully, I dissent. Philosophy is a fine minor for law. Training myself in reason and argument, particularly, continues to give me significant advantages even in my job today. Wouldn't judge its usefulness by its commonality in your class. If anything, you want to stand out from those mindless zombie hordes somehow.

Of course, I went a lot further than a minor.

Well, it's good to get more than one perspective.

La literatura
05-31-2012, 06:00 PM
I will take my LSAT in the spring. After that I will know exactly where I stand. With that being said, the Psychology is a lock because of the opportunities it gives me in preparing for grad school and where. Philosophy is a lock as well as banyon said critical thinking and logic. If I fail miserably on the LSAT (which I don't intend to,) I will have more than enough time to get a double minor as well with very little cost.

Now that I remember that you are quite a bit older than most law applicants, I think you are a different case. I say the business perspective is important because it familiarizes young people with real world problems. However, since you're older, you've had the opportunity to get acquainted with real world problems in the sense that you've dealt with management/employers (employment law), maybe taken out a mortgage (debtor/creditor law), had a dispute with a neighbor over your boundary (property law), and done a bunch of other relevant stuff.

I think being a non-traditional student puts you in a favorable position in that even if you do miserable on the LSAT, good schools would still accept you.

J Diddy
05-31-2012, 06:01 PM
Now that I remember that you are quite a bit older than most law applicants, I think you are a different case. I say the business perspective is important because it familiarizes young people with real world problems. However, since you're older, you've had the opportunity to get acquainted with real world problems in the sense that you've dealt with management/employers (employment law), maybe taken out a mortgage (debtor/creditor law), had a dispute with a neighbor over your boundary (property law), and done a bunch of other relevant stuff.

I think being a non-traditional student puts you in a favorable position in that even if you do miserable on the LSAT, good schools would still accept you.

Lets, uh, slow down that "quite a bit older" stuff.

:)

La literatura
05-31-2012, 06:02 PM
It's all about the law school and your goals.

Also, keep in mind where you want to practice, because that should be a significant factor. If you want to practice in Chicago, don't go to Nebraska Law School if you can go to Loyola, even if Loyola is ranked lower.

J Diddy
05-31-2012, 06:03 PM
Also, keep in mind where you want to practice, because that should be a significant factor. If you want to practice in Chicago, don't go to Nebraska Law School if you can go to Loyola, even if Loyola is ranked lower.

I agree, however, before I even think of applying I've got a lot of work to do. I'm not even close yet.

La literatura
05-31-2012, 06:05 PM
Lets, uh, slow down that "quite a bit older" stuff.

:)

There's several people in my class who are older than you, and they are all well-liked. You have a good advantage, because you're probably going to be more confident than every other student and will be able to contribute with more practical observations in lectures. I think everyone generally admires those people who aren't afraid to try something so unique and fresh as go back to a challenging school environment.

vailpass
05-31-2012, 06:05 PM
Also, keep in mind where you want to practice, because that should be a significant factor. If you want to practice in Chicago, don't go to Nebraska Law School if you can go to Loyola, even if Loyola is ranked lower.

Best thing for you to do is to go to law school in Louisiana, then you'll be set to practice anywhere.

banyon
05-31-2012, 06:06 PM
Best thing for you to do is to go to law school in Louisiana, then you'll be set to practice anywhere.

How do you mean?

La literatura
05-31-2012, 06:09 PM
Best thing for you to do is to go to law school in Louisiana, then you'll be set to practice anywhere.

Actually, Louisiana law is primarily based on Roman law, whereas the rest of the country legal norms are primarily based on common (English) law. LA might screw you up for good. Plus, nobody actually learns in New Orleans because they're getting shitfaced every night.

So, Loyola-Chicago, if you want to practice in Chicago.

vailpass
05-31-2012, 06:18 PM
How do you mean?

Just making a general Napoleonic code joke. Apparently not a very good one.

vailpass
05-31-2012, 06:19 PM
Actually, Louisiana law is primarily based on Roman law, whereas the rest of the country legal norms are primarily based on common (English) law. LA might screw you up for good. Plus, nobody actually learns in New Orleans because they're getting shitfaced every night.

So, Loyola-Chicago, if you want to practice in Chicago.

So you're saying Louisianna law schools actually DON'T prepare you well for practice outside of LA?

La literatura
05-31-2012, 06:25 PM
So you're saying Louisianna law schools actually DON'T prepare you well for practice outside of LA?

No, I was mostly kidding. I am sure Loyola-LA, Tulane, and the others do a fine job.

banyon
05-31-2012, 07:35 PM
Just making a general Napoleonic code joke. Apparently not a very good one.

LOL, ok.

Iowanian
06-01-2012, 10:37 AM
Some people are born to write complex Physics forumlas and some people were born to do things like power wash hog confinements for a living.

The educational system, government and baby boomers are to blame.

We're not all the same, we're not all capable of the same things and we need to stop pretending we are and stop wasting so much money on useless forms of education.

Hydrae
06-01-2012, 11:39 AM
It concerns me that UoP is getting linked with the likes of ITT Tech. I have been going for a little over two years and have just under a year to go to get my BSIT (Database Administration emphasis).

I know ITT Tech is nowhere near the school they were years ago. Heck, even Virginia College where my wife recently got her associates in paralegal won' accept credit for ITT. I really did think UoP or DeVry were on at least a somewhat better standing than that!

Being older (52 in a couple of months) and having family to support meant that conventional schooling would have been very difficult to attend although the expense difference can be enormous. I started going to UoP with ground classes and am now online. I picked this school specifically because of the degree offered. I was not finding anywhere else I could get a degree specifically aimed at database administration.

By the time I am done I will owe right about $50K for three years of schooling. Good thing I was able to transfer in 25 credits from earlier CC courses!

La literatura
06-01-2012, 05:51 PM
Do you feel well-prepared in Database Administration?

Hydrae
06-01-2012, 05:57 PM
Do you feel well-prepared in Database Administration?

Taking my first true database class right now. Then two Java classes and finally finish out with six more database classes. We will see in a few months. I am proud to say I have yet to get less than an A-. :) Too bad they count an A- (90-94) as 3.67 so I don't have a 4.0. :(

La literatura
06-01-2012, 06:09 PM
Taking my first true database class right now. Then two Java classes and finally finish out with six more database classes. We will see in a few months. I am proud to say I have yet to get less than an A-. :) Too bad they count an A- (90-94) as 3.67 so I don't have a 4.0. :(

Well, if you like your job, and you can do it well because of UoP's program, I'd think it was worth it, even if it takes 10-15 years to pay back the total cost.

mikey23545
06-02-2012, 03:27 PM
Perhaps there are some things I should clear up from my post about my time working for one of these schools.

First of all, unlike the originator of the thread, I felt sorry for the students who should never have been signed up for college and saddled with huge debts, not the friggin' state...Jeebus, only a liberal...:shake:

Secondly, for students that did have an IQ over 70, it was not that bad a deal. At that school, there was far more time spent on students individually than you would ever see at a state university where you have 200 students in an auditorium. The biggest class size at that school was probably 15 or 20 kids. For kids who might not have been geniuses but just needed a little extra help from an instructor, it would have been a godsend. Also, the curriculum was more vocational, and not as concerned with liberal arts.

Lastly, the problem with these schools would be greatly alleviated by restructuring or eliminating the federal student loan program, not giving out loans and then granting bankruptcies.

J Diddy
06-02-2012, 04:40 PM
Perhaps there are some things I should clear up from my post about my time working for one of these schools.

First of all, unlike the originator of the thread, I felt sorry for the students who should never have been signed up for college and saddled with huge debts, not the friggin' state...Jeebus, only a liberal...:shake:

Secondly, for students that did have an IQ over 70, it was not that bad a deal. At that school, there was far more time spent on students individually than you would ever see at a state university where you have 200 students in an auditorium. The biggest class size at that school was probably 15 or 20 kids. For kids who might not have been geniuses but just needed a little extra help from an instructor, it would have been a godsend. Also, the curriculum was more vocational, and not as concerned with liberal arts.

Lastly, the problem with these schools would be greatly alleviated by restructuring or eliminating the federal student loan program, not giving out loans and then granting bankruptcies.

Who is granting bankruptcies? You cannot discharge student loans in bankruptcy.

PunkinDrublic
06-02-2012, 04:56 PM
How does a potential student not realize these diploma mills are a complete scam. One of these schools down here in Arlington has it's campus on one end of a declining mall.

J Diddy
06-02-2012, 05:00 PM
How does a potential student not realize these diploma mills are a complete scam. One of these schools down here in Arlington has it's campus on one end of a declining mall.

I think that they prey on nontraditional students who are fed up with life and don't think they can cut it at a traditional setting. The majority are also not educated in the manner of which they deliver their "mandatory statistics." Then last but not least, a lot do it in lieu of working. Unlike a trad school, these places cut Fin aid checks monthly or bimonthly.

Hydrae
06-03-2012, 07:52 AM
A lot of people I go to school with at UoP are military or former military. They are getting their schooling paid for completely by the service so they probably do not care as much about expenses since it will never come out of their pocket. I know many of them were using a port 911 bill that not only paid 100% of their schooling, it also pays them a stipend each month for living expenses. I know one guy was getting something like $1200 a month.

mikey23545
06-03-2012, 08:00 AM
Who is granting bankruptcies? You cannot discharge student loans in bankruptcy.

Sorry, I probably should have been a little more clear. I didn't mean they are doing it now, but that is one of the so-called "solutions" to help students who got themselves into debt that is being bandied about.

BucEyedPea
06-03-2012, 10:05 AM
Who is granting bankruptcies? You cannot discharge student loans in bankruptcy.

You just get a swat team sent to your house under our current police state instead.

J Diddy
06-03-2012, 10:11 AM
You just get a swat team sent to your house under our current police state instead.

Did you forget to take your crazy pills this morning? What are you talking about?

BucEyedPea
06-03-2012, 10:53 AM
Did you forget to take your crazy pills this morning? What are you talking about?

You mustn't read any news. Probably just get TV pablum. There was a thread on this very thing, in this forum, I believe.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/06/08/swat-team-breaks-down-ken_n_873171.html


Your constant insults and name calling, and other ad hominem and logical fallacies, also reveals that you lose your arguments regularly.
Telling someone they know "jack shit" doesn't refute anything. I means you can't refute or articulate an argument.

J Diddy
06-03-2012, 11:10 AM
You mustn't read any news. Probably just get TV pablum. There was a thread on this very thing, in this forum, I believe.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/06/08/swat-team-breaks-down-ken_n_873171.html


Your constant insults and name calling, and other ad hominem and logical fallacies, also reveals that you lose your arguments regularly.
Telling someone they know "jack shit" doesn't refute anything. I means you can't refute or articulate an argument.

How about this? Not only was this story refuted by the link but by other news agencies as well.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/06/08/department-education-raid-default-student-loans_n_873272.html

http://www.news10.net/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=141108

It wasn't the swat team, it was a branch of dept of education. That of course doesn't seem to fit your agenda so carry on.

BucEyedPea
06-03-2012, 11:21 AM
Whether or not it was financial aid fraud or otherwise, a SWAT team is still abusive over kill. Those updates don't change what I think about such tactics.

J Diddy
06-03-2012, 11:21 AM
Did you say something?

ROFL

J Diddy
06-03-2012, 11:22 AM
Whether or not it was financial aid fraud or otherwise, a SWAT team is still abusive over kill. Those updates don't change what I think about such tactics.

Especially since it wasn't a swat team and it wasn't over student loan fraud.

BucEyedPea
06-03-2012, 11:23 AM
I edited that while making a new post. It just means I have stopped reading your posts, currently. Then I decided to whereby I made a new post. But keep it up the snark and logical fallacies and you can expect such responses.

BucEyedPea
06-03-2012, 11:24 AM
Especially since it wasn't a swat team and it wasn't over student loan fraud.

May I ask what part of "whether or not" you don't understand?

No wonder you went to a cc.

J Diddy
06-03-2012, 11:26 AM
I edited that while making a new post. It just means I have stopped reading your posts, currently. Then I decided to whereby I made a new post. But keep it up the snark and logical fallacies and you can expect such responses.

I am busting a gut wide open laughing at you. Literally my side hurts. At one point, I think my son was afraid I was having a heart attack my face was so red. I disproved your statement and your response was "logical fallacy"

Every kingdom needs a jester, thank you for being DC's.

J Diddy
06-03-2012, 11:28 AM
May I ask what part of "whether or not" you don't understand?

No wonder you went to a cc.

Where i transferred to a state university, where I just received 3 scholarships and finished the semester with a 4.0 and currently am holding a 3.9 combined. You should probably not go with the "you're stupid angle." It is a dead end.

BucEyedPea
06-03-2012, 11:45 AM
Where i transferred to a state university, where I just received 3 scholarships and finished the semester with a 4.0 and currently am holding a 3.9 combined. You should probably not go with the "you're stupid angle." It is a dead end.

That tells me nothing, since there are "need-based" and "merit-based" scholarships. It's pretty obvious you can't articulate an argument without a heavy reliance on logical fallacies including ad hominem attacks though. That's is very obvious. CC's are still easier with smaller classes. They accept anyone. So they're well suited for those who can't make the jump to 4 year university from HS. Unless it's a financial problem. But even they have scholarships when transferring if the student proves themself. Then the SAT/ACT reading scores aren't relied on as much.

If you were so smart and had high SATs, or did an IB program with high SATs, you would have had a merit scholarship to 4 year university out of high school. You don't fool me—not with your argument style and comprehension. If you feel under attack with this, realize your just getting back what you've been dishing out like an 8 year old child. Because I wouldn't be doing it if you hadn't started it. Reap= sow.

For instance:

As far as your links regarding the swat team incident. I didn't bother to read your post. Then I glanced at it and skimmed through a link, as well as saw another article using google along the same line.

There's is what I saw on a quick skim read using your own links and the videos in them.

U.S. Department of Education spokesman Justin Hamilton confirmed for News10 Wednesday morning federal agents with the Office of the Inspector General (OIG), not local S.W.A.T., served the search warrant. Hamilton would not say specifically why the raid took place except that it was part of an ongoing criminal investigation.

Hamilton said the search was not related to student loans in default as reported in the local media.

OIG is a semi-independent branch of the education department that executes warrants for criminal offenses such as student aid fraud, embezzlement of federal aid and bribery, according to Hamilton. The agency serves 30 to 35 search warrants a year.
So per your link, OIG doesn't say why they used a swat team—just that it's a criminal investigation. Meanwhile the video after the one linked, says it was for "student financial aid fraud."

"Whether or not this is for fraud" or not (or some other white collar offense,) it's an over use of force for a man who had no criminal record. There was no expectation of violence per the first video in your link. The warrant was supposed to be served during day light hours. Hence the use of the phrase "Whether or not this is for fraud." It was a possibility. That's what you didn't comprehend. Dummy.

This is fascist police state tactics relative to the crime. Expect more of it as our local police become more militarized. I expect you to defend it. You probably would defend the excessive force used by Janet Reno.

J Diddy
06-03-2012, 11:53 AM
That tells me nothing, since there are "need-based" and "merit-based" scholarships. It's pretty obvious you can't articulate an argument without a heavy reliance on logical fallacies including ad hominem attacks though. That's is very obvious. CC's are still easier with smaller classes. They accept anyone. So they're well suited for those who can't make the jump to 4 year university from HS. Unless it's a financial problem. But even they do have scholarships when transferring if the student proves themself. Then the SAT/ACT reading scores aren't relied on as much.

If you were so smart and had high SATs, or did an IB program with high SATs you would have had a merit scholarship to 4 year university out of high school. You don't fool meónot with your argument style and comprehension.

For instance:

As far as your links regarding the swat team incident. I didn't bother to read your post. Then I glanced at it and skimmed through a link, as well as saw another article using google along the same line.

There's is what I saw on a quick skim read:


So per your link, OIG doesn't say. Meanwhile video after the one linked, says it was for "student financial aid fraud."

"Whether or not this is for fraud" or not (or some other white collar offense,) it's an over use of force for a man who had no criminal record. There was no expectation of violence per the first video in your link. The warrant was supposed to be served during day light hours. Hence the use of the phrase "Whether or not this is for fraud."

This is fascist police state tactics relative to the crime. Expect more of it as our local police become more militarized. I expect you to defend it.

I did have a free ride out of high school, that didn't happen. With a 4.0 gpa, I think it'd be safe to say they were merit scholarships, but I digress.

You don't know the details of the case except that it was first reported to be a swat team looking for a woman who defaulted on a student loan. You accepted that as truth and ran with it. I show you evidence to the contrary and it is false because it doesn't agree with your predetermined belief that is what this was about. Then you tell me I need to defend it and say I'm projecting.

Sound about right?

BucEyedPea
06-03-2012, 11:57 AM
I did have a free ride out of high school, that didn't happen. With a 4.0 gpa, I think it'd be safe to say they were merit scholarships, but I digress.

You don't know the details of the case except that it was first reported to be a swat team looking for a woman who defaulted on a student loan. You accepted that as truth and ran with it. I show you evidence to the contrary and it is false because it doesn't agree with your predetermined belief that is what this was about. Then you tell me I need to defend it and say I'm projecting.

Sound about right?

I don't believe you. It just doesn't figure logically or you would have attended if it was free.
Or your schools A's were grade inflation. That's rife in public schools too. You're a poor reader and refuter.

Again, you're the one not reading what I posted since you continue on the line of "not know the details." First, you completely fail to see that I acknowledged the change in the first report in my post after your post showing later reports, which I never saw. I also point out there's still no details in your own links EXCEPT what it wasn't for. The evidence of both my acknowledgement, as well as there not being any reason stated, a later claim that it was student financial aid fraud, is why I used of the phrase "whether or not" since fraud was another possibility. You don't understand what "whether or not" means. Dumbass.

Keep projecting about who is stupid. You're projection is a good demonstration.

J Diddy
06-03-2012, 12:14 PM
I don't believe you. It just doesn't figure logically or you would have attended if it was free.
Or your schools A's were grade inflation. That's rife in public schools too.


Again, your not reading what I posted if you continue on the line of "not know the details." First, you completely fail to see that I acknowledged the change in report in a post later but point out there's no details in your own links EXCEPT what it wasn't for. The evidence of both my acknowledgement, as well as there not being any reason stated, is my use of the phrase "whether or not" since fraud was another possibility.

Keep projecting about who is stupid. You're projection is a good demonstration.

Probably had a lot to do with my mother dying when I was a sr and me not going to college until 20 years later, either way I don't care what you believe.


Second, let's try not to spin this. You said and I quote, " You just get a swat team sent to your house under our current police state instead. " The articles I linked refute that. The original story was that it was over student loans. The links I provided refuted that.

That is all the defending I need to do as that was my statement. Anything else you're throwing on doesn't matter.