PDA

View Full Version : Chiefs Secret Superstar: Tyson Jackson and Glenn Dorsey, DEs, Kansas City Chiefs


Von Dumbass
06-02-2012, 10:37 AM
http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/06/02/secret-superstar-tyson-jackson-and-glenn-dorsey-des-kansas-city-chiefs/

It’s not often you’ll get somebody trying to tell you that a pair of Top 5 draft picks are a secret, but that’s exactly what I’m going to do in this article. Most people, and even some Chiefs fans, will tell you that both Tyson Jackson and Glenn Dorsey have been colossal failures. They have been, at best, mediocre players when nothing less than studs would have been acceptable for such a huge outlay in the draft, but the truth is a little more complex than that.

When most teams look to the defensive line at the top of the draft, they’re searching for impact pass rushers; guys that can rack-up sacks and bring the heat on opposing quarterbacks. The Chiefs’ defensive scheme isn’t quite like that, and what they want from their linemen is stout play against the run. They’ve found exactly that from these two players, but people are so fixated on their failures in terms of pass rushing that nobody seems to have noticed.



A Different Thought Process

The biggest reason people perceive Glenn Dorsey as a failure is the disconnect between the reputation and skillset people saw him having when he was a prospect coming out of LSU and the player he has actually turned out to be in the NFL. Dorsey was supposed to be the next great 3-technique defensive tackle. He was seen as a stud upfield, penetrating interior presence that could create pressure, generate sacks, and disrupt an offense. In short, he was supposed to be the new Warren Sapp or Kevin Williams. So when he notched just a solitary sack as a rookie, and only seven more total pressures despite 419 passing snaps, the prevailing wisdom was that he had a terrible rookie season. Of course, it could also be that the initial perception was just off to begin with. In 30 career starts at LSU, Dorsey notched just 15 sacks.

So far Dorsey has recorded only four career sacks in four seasons as a Chief, which is enough for most to want to run him right out of town. All the negativity surrounding his pass rush overshadows the work he has done as a run defender. Pass rushing is easily the more glamorous aspect of defensive line play, and has ready-made statistics for people to point to as proof of performance. Often, play against the run comes with no such stat. As a rookie, he defended the run well in an unfamiliar 3-4 defense, and with the exception of a slump in his second season, has graded increasingly well in that area.

Tyson Jackson was likewise thrust into unrealistic expectations when he was selected third overall, but after two career sacks in three seasons, he is held by many right there alongside Dorsey as a failed pick and a disappointment. Jackson struggled much more than Dorsey early on, grading abysmally as a rookie in all areas with a -40.9 overall mark. However, in his second season he was above average as a run defender and last season he had completed a similar improvement as his teammate, with a +10.0 grade against the run.



Kansas City’s Scheme

The Chiefs have been running a 3-4 scheme for the entirety of both Dorsey and Jackson’s NFL careers, first under defensive coordinator Clancy Pendergast, and then under Romeo Crennel as both DC and now head coach. While much of the league has been trending toward penetrating, aggressive defensive fronts, with more 3-4 defenses playing one-gap fronts, the Chiefs have maintained an old-school two-gap defense. This won’t surprise anybody who watched the way the Patriots played defense under Crennel, but it does swim against the stream in terms of how the rest of the league has been playing. The Patriots used to have big, stout two-gapping defensive linemen and then relied on the linebackers behind them to make plays, and the Chiefs today have been doing a pretty good job of emulating that defense.

New England had Ty Warren, who was for years one of the best run-stuffing 3-4 DEs as the lynchpin of that defense. It allowed their linebackers to make a name for themselves because they rarely had to deal with bodies coming at them. The Chiefs have been trying to get that kind of play from Dorsey and Jackson, and recently it has been working. As such, you have seen Pro-Bowl caliber seasons from Tamba Hali, Derrick Johnson, as well as impressive and promising performances from Justin Houston. Though often lost in coverage, even Jovan Belcher has been able to string together consistently strong play against the run because of the play in front of him.

It may not be the kind of play most people want to see from their high draft picks, but the Chiefs evidently value the ability to play a disciplined two-gap defense, and in that regard they seem to have done well in identifying players who can excel in one.



The Numbers and the Future

While it is often true that play against the run comes with no easy statistic to point to as proof of quality play, especially for players expected to maintain two gaps, there are stats Pro Football Focus keeps that the mainstream does not have access to. The problem with just looking at tackles, is that you have no way of knowing if that tackle came in the backfield for a loss, or 10 yards downfield after you were blown off the ball. In addition to tackles, we record defensive stops–tackles for an offensive failure on the play–and looking at those stops collected on run plays, Jackson and Dorsey each accounted for more than any other 3-4 end … including All-World stud, Justin Smith. Jackson tallied 38 while Dorsey earned 32 himself as they led the NFL at their position, and Jackson also led the league in Run Stop frequency.

The Chiefs completed their defensive line with a third first round pick in this year’s draft in the shape of Dontari Poe from Memphis. If they have managed to identify another player of similar run-stuffing ability, their D is well on its way to being an extremely formidable unit. Though neither Glenn Dorsey nor Tyson Jackson will ever be redeemed in the eyes of some people who care only about the sack stats, they have developed into two of the best run-stuffing defensive linemen in the NFL. That is why they are Kansas City’s Secret Superstars.

Thig Lyfe
06-02-2012, 10:40 AM
Fuck you.

SNR
06-02-2012, 10:40 AM
A lot of "professional" analysts don't even consider this information when talking about either of them. They just say, "WUHP BUST!"

BigChiefFan
06-02-2012, 10:43 AM
Poe should help free up Dorsey and Jackson.

milkman
06-02-2012, 10:47 AM
People are going to read this and tell you that the idiot that wrote it is clueless.

And they will be able to support that claim by pointing out the fact that Dorsey has not been in a 34 defense for the entirety of his career.

The dumbass that wrote this completely whiffs on that fact.

Tombstone RJ
06-02-2012, 10:52 AM
Ok, I'll buy it. Fact is a 2 gap dlineman is hard to play but when it's mastered it allows the linebackers to make a lot of plays. Now that Poe is in there this combo could be very, very difficult to run on.

As for the passing game, kc secondary is good but it all starts up front.

this is coming from a Broncos fan.

kysirsoze
06-02-2012, 10:58 AM
The Chiefs have been running a 3-4 scheme for the entirety of both Dorsey and Jackson’s NFL careers

Nope

kysirsoze
06-02-2012, 10:58 AM
People are going to read this and tell you that the idiot that wrote it is clueless.

And they will be able to support that claim by pointing out the fact that Dorsey has not been in a 34 defense for the entirety of his career.

The dumbass that wrote this completely whiffs on that fact.

Beat me to it.

Rausch
06-02-2012, 11:00 AM
People are going to read this and tell you that the idiot that wrote it is clueless.

And they will be able to support that claim by pointing out the fact that Dorsey has not been in a 34 defense for the entirety of his career.

The dumbass that wrote this completely whiffs on that fact.

This is why you have an editor.

Unless you're Stephen King...

Count Zarth
06-02-2012, 11:11 AM
Same shit we said all year.

Chiefnj2
06-02-2012, 12:25 PM
People are going to read this and tell you that the idiot that wrote it is clueless.

And they will be able to support that claim by pointing out the fact that Dorsey has not been in a 34 defense for the entirety of his career.

The dumbass that wrote this completely whiffs on that fact.

How many years did Dorsey play in a 43? One?

BigMeatballDave
06-02-2012, 12:29 PM
How many years did Dorsey play in a 43? One?

Yes, his rookie season.

Ace Gunner
06-02-2012, 12:52 PM
oh, this idiot is a dumbass alright;

"New England had Ty Warren, who was for years one of the best run-stuffing 3-4 DEs as the lynchpin of that defense. It allowed their linebackers to make a name for themselves because they rarely had to deal with bodies coming at them"

okay now there was this dude named richard seymour that demolished a team all by himself in one play of several games. ty warren? you got to be kidding me. ted washington muther****er. richard seymour has 54 career sacks. hell he had 6 sacks as a 3tek last year. lynchpin he is.

worthless garbage. all you need to know about glenn dorsey is he is slow as hell. at least jackson can get up field. but dorsey good? oh gawd. how can a one demensional fat ass be good in the NFL? dorsey will be running a pancake house for a living in a couple years. what a miss that was.

ThaVirus
06-02-2012, 01:00 PM
Poe should help free up Dorsey and Jackson.

To do what? Neither of them have any pass rush skills.

Let me first say that I liked our defense, including the play of Dorsey and Jackson last season. They were super stout against the run, even without stellar NT play, and that allowed DJ, Belcher, and Houston to shine. Doesn't change the fact that they've showed absolutely zero pass rushing ability.

Mr. Laz
06-02-2012, 01:07 PM
[what they want from their linemen is stout play against the run.
and yet ...

BossChief
06-02-2012, 01:15 PM
If Poe fills his potential, Belcher and DJ are gonna both appear super human.

Stanley Nickels
06-02-2012, 01:17 PM
This team's "stout run defense" ranked 26th in the league last year..

BossChief
06-02-2012, 01:19 PM
oh, this idiot is a dumbass alright;

"New England had Ty Warren, who was for years one of the best run-stuffing 3-4 DEs as the lynchpin of that defense. It allowed their linebackers to make a name for themselves because they rarely had to deal with bodies coming at them"

okay now there was this dude named richard seymour that demolished a team all by himself in one play of several games. ty warren? you got to be kidding me. ted washington muther****er. richard seymour has 54 career sacks. hell he had 6 sacks as a 3tek last year. lynchpin he is.

worthless garbage. all you need to know about glenn dorsey is he is slow as hell. at least jackson can get up field. but dorsey good? oh gawd. how can a one demensional fat ass be good in the NFL? dorsey will be running a pancake house for a living in a couple years. what a miss that was.
Don't quit your day job.

Count Zarth
06-02-2012, 01:21 PM
This team's "stout run defense" ranked 26th in the league last year..

Which is really a load of bullshit.

Our YPG allowed was inflated by our horrible offense.

We were 14th in YPC which isn't horrible when you consider we lost our best safety and had Pissinthebelly running around out there for huge chunks of games.

I'd like to see our YPC allowed over the last half of the season when Houston was getting up to speed...I bet it was pretty good.

Stanley Nickels
06-02-2012, 01:45 PM
Which is really a load of bullshit.

Our YPG allowed was inflated by our horrible offense.

We were 14th in YPC which isn't horrible when you consider we lost our best safety and had Pissinthebelly running around out there for huge chunks of games.

I'd like to see our YPC allowed over the last half of the season when Houston was getting up to speed...I bet it was pretty good.

Well, we're one of six teams to allow zero runs of >40 yards, and tied for 10th in the league in >20 yard runs (allowed 10). Also, we were 4th-highest in attempts per game (31.8 rushes/gm).

Those stats would generally support your idea that our "total" rushing defense was hurt as a byproduct of our shitty offense.. but our YPC is middle-of-the pack, which doesn't really support PFF's "superstar" claim for our D-ends.

BigChiefFan
06-02-2012, 02:01 PM
To do what? Neither of them have any pass rush skills.

Let me first say that I liked our defense, including the play of Dorsey and Jackson last season. They were super stout against the run, even without stellar NT play, and that allowed DJ, Belcher, and Houston to shine. Doesn't change the fact that they've showed absolutely zero pass rushing ability.
To make more plays, mainly in the run game.

I agree they have very little pass rush skills, but it still should help free them in the run support and on pass-rushing, as well, dependent on the packages we are running.

We run alot of packages, with D-lineman moved in and out of the line-up, but if Poe wreaks havoc, like I think he's capable of, we'll get better in both areas.

Buckweath
06-02-2012, 02:03 PM
To do what? Neither of them have any pass rush skills.

Let me first say that I liked our defense, including the play of Dorsey and Jackson last season. They were super stout against the run, even without stellar NT play, and that allowed DJ, Belcher, and Houston to shine. Doesn't change the fact that they've showed absolutely zero pass rushing ability.

I agree with you. I really don't expect Dorsey and Jackson to improve their passrushing but I've come to understand that it's not their primary job. If ever we get more passrush from the Dline this year, it will come from Dontari Poe IMO. I mean, you look at a guy like Ngata, I don't think I'm wrong if I say he has never really helped his two teammates on the Dline get more pressure on the QB. He gets the pressure by himself and maybe helps the LBs behind him but not the other Dlinemen.

Buckweath
06-02-2012, 02:11 PM
To make more plays, mainly in the run game.

I agree they have very little pass rush skills, but it still should help free them in the run support and on pass-rushing, as well, dependent on the packages we are running.

We run alot of packages, with D-lineman moved in and out of the line-up, but if Poe wreaks havoc, like I think he's capable of, we'll get better in both areas.

Dorsey and Jackson in our scheme are the ones, with the NT, who are supposed to help free the LBs. In a 3-4, you want your LBs to roam free because of the Dline play.

whoman69
06-02-2012, 02:18 PM
The fact is their primary duty is to protect against the run. That doesn't change the fact that they are worthless on passing downs which teams are more and more dialing up against our base defense. Jackson at least showed a little improvement last year.

Buckweath
06-02-2012, 03:06 PM
The fact is their primary duty is to protect against the run. That doesn't change the fact that they are worthless on passing downs which teams are more and more dialing up against our base defense. Jackson at least showed a little improvement last year.

It is true that Jackson and Dorsey never apply pressure by themselves on the QB but remember that the Chiefs finished 8th overall in pass defense last year, and that was without Eric Berry. Now, I expect Houston to be solid in passrushing for a full season and Dontari Poe should be an improvement over Gregg in the passrushing department, so I think the Chiefs pass defense can do fine and be elite against the pass even if Dorsey and Jackson don't improve in that regard. And I don't consider Routt much of a downgrade BTW.

Pasta Giant Meatball
06-02-2012, 03:11 PM
Sub packages were weak against the run as were the safeties. T-Jack and Dorsey did thier jobs in that regard.

T-post Tom
06-02-2012, 03:16 PM
Dammit Cassel! :mad:

prhom
06-02-2012, 05:20 PM
I guess if Jackson and Dorsey are the studs on the d-line, then Hali, Houston, DJ, and Belcher are to blame? We can spins stats all day long, but the bottom line is our defense wasn't good enough to win with the offense we put out there. There are a lot of question marks on how Charles and Hillis will play so I'm not sure we can count on having a great offense this year. This defense needs to be top 5 in every category.

WhiteWhale
06-02-2012, 05:33 PM
oh, this idiot is a dumbass alright;

"New England had Ty Warren, who was for years one of the best run-stuffing 3-4 DEs as the lynchpin of that defense. It allowed their linebackers to make a name for themselves because they rarely had to deal with bodies coming at them"

okay now there was this dude named richard seymour that demolished a team all by himself in one play of several games. ty warren? you got to be kidding me. ted washington muther****er. richard seymour has 54 career sacks. hell he had 6 sacks as a 3tek last year. lynchpin he is.

worthless garbage. all you need to know about glenn dorsey is he is slow as hell. at least jackson can get up field. but dorsey good? oh gawd. how can a one demensional fat ass be good in the NFL? dorsey will be running a pancake house for a living in a couple years. what a miss that was.

Like Dorsey and Jackson, it's easy for lesser informed fans to think Ty Warren wasn't anything special.

Against the run he was better than Seymour.

whoman69
06-02-2012, 06:34 PM
It is true that Jackson and Dorsey never apply pressure by themselves on the QB but remember that the Chiefs finished 8th overall in pass defense last year, and that was without Eric Berry. Now, I expect Houston to be solid in passrushing for a full season and Dontari Poe should be an improvement over Gregg in the passrushing department, so I think the Chiefs pass defense can do fine and be elite against the pass even if Dorsey and Jackson don't improve in that regard. And I don't consider Routt much of a downgrade BTW.

They were actually sixth, but they were the least passed against team in the league. The fact that other teams could run against our 26th ranked run defense shows that what this article was trying to praise Jackson and Dorsey for was the weak part of our defense. Poe will probably start out in the sub packages against the pass from what has been put out there. He showed in Memphis that he can't be out there every down.

Ace Gunner
06-02-2012, 06:57 PM
Like Dorsey and Jackson, it's easy for lesser informed fans to think Ty Warren wasn't anything special.

Against the run he was better than Seymour.

okay, this is just way out of the galaxy wrong. first, I never said ty warren wasn't a good player, he was and the way he held the point on the strongside was special. but to say he was better at anything than seymour is way way wrong.

richard seymour will have his bust in canton -- first ballot.

ty warren will be there when it happens, I'm guessing. that will likely be the closest he will ever come to the HOF.

early in his career seymour played LDE often and back then, ty warren was his back up.

warren's tackle totals = 255
seymour's = 317 and counting

seymour is a 7 time pro bowl selection & 3 time all pro.

warren has nothing.

for his play during 2006, seymour was AV rated best on his team, a team with brady on it.

seymour is as good a player as any before him that played in this system. the other player I would hold as high regard that played the position is leonard marshall -- the Giant that ate joe montana during the playoffs in SF.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAABWqhNvtg


here you will see seymour chosen top AV 2006
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/nwe/

seymour's player page
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/S/SeymRi00.htm

warren's
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/W/WarrTy20.htm

glenn dorsey couldn't hold warren's joc, jackson, I'll wait another season before I weigh in.

KC Tattoo
06-02-2012, 11:43 PM
Tyson Jack can sack Peyton Manning and *snap* goes the neck.

All it takes is one sack.

aturnis
06-03-2012, 01:25 AM
They were actually sixth, but they were the least passed against team in the league. The fact that other teams could run against our 26th ranked run defense shows that what this article was trying to praise Jackson and Dorsey for was the weak part of our defense. Poe will probably start out in the sub packages against the pass from what has been put out there. He showed in Memphis that he can't be out there every down.

Not exactly. The Chiefs run defense wasn't 26th in the league, and teams didn't run more than they passed b/c our run D sucked. Our run D was 14th in the league in ypc, but we're run on more than about any defense in the league b/c teams we faced played with a lead most of the time.

Nonly that, but Poe didn't prove He wasn't a three down player at Memphis. The Chiefs took him believing he could be a 3 down NT. He'll start in sub packages b/c all he was asked to do in college was disrupt the QB. At this time, his pass rush should be more developed than his run D.