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mikey23545
06-04-2012, 01:56 PM
The Democrats are not even attempting to hide their attempts at vote-rigging:

Holder to Florida: Stop checking records for illegal voters


On Friday, Attorney General Eric Holder and the U.S. Justice Department demanded that the State of Florida -- considered a vital electoral state -- to stop checking voter records in that state's probe of illegal voter registrations.

Meanwhile, in a letter to a top state official, T. Christian Herren Jr. of the Justice Department's Voting Section, said "the effort appeared to violate the 1965 Voting Rights Act, which protects minorities."

In the letter to Florida's Secretary of State Ken Detzner, who is in charge of elections, Herren claimed searching for illegal voters "seemed to violate the 1993 National Voter Registration Act" and its rules for maintaining "accurate and current" voter registration lists "in a uniform and non-discriminatory manner."

However, critics of Holder and his underlings at DOJ believe this is another scheme to allow illegal immigrants, convicted felons and out-of-state residents to vote in Florida which has been a battleground state that can determine a winner by a mere few hundred votes.

"Holder, Herren and their boss [President Barack] Obama have shown absolutely no proof of discrimination. If they're so worried about the integrity of voters' rights, why didn't they go after the New Black Panther Party who actually interfered with voters' rights?" asked political strategist Michael Baker.

"Supporters of Governor Rick Scott's so-called purge of illegal voters, have been open about the purpose of it: to clear voter rolls of non-citizens. But Democrats continue say the Republican are attempting to prevent minorities and the poor will most probably vote Democratic," Baker stated.

"While the Democrats and their [sic] crony organizations accuse Republicans freely and openly, rarely do you hear a Republican accuse Democrats of 'stuffing the ballot box' with illegal ballots. And yet, there is quite a bit of evidence of Democrat Party-affiliated groups involved in voter fraud. Did I hear the name ACORN?" quipped Baker.

The official demand from the Justice Department, that Florida end its search for potentially ineligible voters, came hours after the latest unemployment and job creation figures were released by the Department of Labor and commentators were lamenting the negative impact of the statistics on the Obama campaign, Baker claimed.

According to Florida's State Department, the voter records searchers are simply trying to match the state voter registration database with driver's license records.

Holder and the DOJ claim that such data may be out of date since many people become citizens after they get their driver's licenses or state ID cards and register to vote. Voter integrity advocates say there is little if any inconvenience to voters if such a scenario does occur.

According to Florida officials, investigators discovered close to 3,000 suspicious voters and notified them to produce proof of citizenship in order to avoid being removed from Florida's voter rolls.

Meanwhile, the news media have covered the story of voter fraud as a the Republicans' plot to stop so-called minority voters. For example, The Miami Herald stated on Friday: "Florida has what civil rights groups describe as a long history of voter roll tampering and manipulation. Most recently, in both 2000 and 2004, it tried purging convicted felons from the rolls using what were found to be inaccurate lists that kept ballots out of the hands of black voters who tend to vote Democratic."

"As a group, reporters can always be counted on to use a minimum amount of intelligence and common sense when covering such a story. The Justice Department is basing its actions and demands on 'suspicions' that are in themselves highly suspect," Mike Baker said.Following the 2008 Obama victory, overwhelming evidence of voter intimidation by members of the racist New Black Panther Party was all but ignored by the U.S. Justice Department. Following the 2008 Obama victory, overwhelming evidence of voter intimidation by members of the racist New Black Panther Party was all but ignored by the U.S. Justice Department.

mikey23545
06-04-2012, 01:59 PM
Florida officials have discovered that 180,000 registered voters may be non-citizens.

A CBS4/Miami Herald analysis of information supplied by Miami-Dade shows a large number of the potential non-citizens voters cast ballots in the past — including the 2000 election, when the presidency was decided by just over 500 votes.

According to Deputy Supervisor of Elections Christina White, there are a “lot of non-citizens on our registration rolls.”

Florida’s Division of Elections is checking the citizenship of voters by comparing drivers license records, which show whether a licensed driver is also a U.S. citizen.

Non-citizens are able to become registered voters in Florida because if a non-citizen checks the box on the voter registration form that says they are a citizen they are registered to vote, because the form is signed under oath.

Garcia Bronco
06-04-2012, 02:00 PM
LOL...I'd kindly tell Holder to get lost and put out a warrant for his arrest in the state of Florida.

Chiefshrink
06-04-2012, 02:02 PM
Hey Holder !! 10th Amend 4321

mikey23545
06-04-2012, 02:03 PM
I am really starting to wonder whether we will ever have a free election again should Obama win in November.

vailpass
06-04-2012, 02:04 PM
obama, Holder, Pelosi, Reid, automobile, Chappaquiddick. A good start.

mikey23545
06-04-2012, 02:09 PM
obama, Holder, Pelosi, Reid, automobile, Chappaquiddick. A good start.

LMAO

Garcia Bronco
06-04-2012, 02:11 PM
obama, Holder, Pelosi, Reid, automobile, Chappaquiddick. A good start.

You forg ot the key piece....they'll need a drunk kennedy.

mikey23545
06-04-2012, 02:17 PM
You forg ot the key piece....they'll need a drunk kennedy.

That's usually not hard to find.

qabbaan
06-04-2012, 02:19 PM
Why in the world would they order the investigation stopped when they already found supposedly 180,000 that appear to be illegal?

Amnorix
06-04-2012, 02:22 PM
The line between perfectly fine illegal vote purging, and intentional and overbroad supression of LEGAL voters is very thin. But Florida Republicans historically don't give a shit about that because, y'know, winning is the only thing.

So, 180,000 possible illegal voters. Oh wait, sorry


180,000 possible illegal voters.

LIke this guy, who served in the US armed forced during WWII.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/itsallpolitics/2012/05/31/154020289/world-war-ii-vet-caught-up-in-floridas-voter-purge-controversy

This is based on a "prove you're alive or you can't vote" system they're apparently trying to implement. Oh, and you have 30 days to jump through the hoops or you're automatically out. Oh, and by the way, the local counties ALREADY PURGE THE VOTING LISTS BASED ON DEATH NOTICES, so why is all this necessary.

Why is all this necessary? Why, so the Republicans can try to not only eliminate illegal voters, but also sweep some likely LEGAL voters out of the ballot box. It worked in 2000, where thousands of LEGAL voters were purged, and then Bush won the state by ~500 votes.



James Lee's testimonyOn 17 April 2001, James Lee testified, before the McKinney panel, that the state had given DBT the directive to add to the purge list people who matched at least 90% of a last name. DBT objected, knowing that this would produce a huge number of false positives (non-felons).[7]

Lee went on saying that the state then ordered DBT to shift to an even lower threshold of 80% match, allowing also names to be reversed (thus a person named Thomas Clarence could be taken to be the same as Clarence Thomas). Besides this, middle initials were skipped, Jr. and Sr. suffixes dropped, and some nicknames and aliases were added to puff up the list.

"DBT told state officials", testified Lee, "that the rules for creating the [purge] list would mean a significant number of people who were not deceased, not registered in more than one county, or not a felon, would be included on the list. DBT made suggestions to reduce the numbers of eligible voters included on the list". According to Lee, to this suggestion the state told the company, "Forget about it".
"The people who worked on this (for DBT) are very adamant... they told them what would happen", said Lee. "The state expected the county supervisors to be the failsafe." Lee said his company will never again get involved in cleansing voting rolls. "We are not confident any of the methods used today can guarantee legal voters will not be wrongfully denied the right to vote", Lee told a group of Atlanta-area black lawmakers in March 2001.[8]

[edit] Errors in the listFlorida has re-edited its felon list five times since 1998 to correct errors.

The first list DBT Online provided to the Division of Elections in April 2000 contained the names of 181,157 persons. Approximately 65,776 of those included on the first list were identified as felons.

In May 2000, DBT discovered that approximately 8,000 names were erroneously placed on the exclusion list, mostly those of former Texas prisoners who were included on a DBT list that turned out never to have been convicted of more than a misdemeanor. Later in the month, DBT provided a revised list to the Division of Elections (DOE) containing a total of 173,127 persons. Of those included on the "corrected list", 57,746 were identified as felons.

Examples:

Thomas Cooper, Date of Birth September 5, 1973; crime, unknown; conviction date, January 30, 2007
Johnny Jackson Jr., Date of Birth, 1970; crime, none, mistaken for John Fitzgerald Jackson who was still in his jail cell in Texas
Wallace McDonald, Date of Birth, 1928; crime, fell asleep on a bus-stop bench in 1959
Reverend Willie Dixon, convicted in the 1970s at the latest; note, received full executive clemency
Randall J. Higginbotham, Date of Birth, August 28, 1960; crimes, none, mistaken for Sean David Higginbotham, born June 16, 1971
Reverend Willy D. Whiting Jr., crime, a speeding ticket from 1990, confused with Willy J. Whiting who have birthdays 2 days apart

[edit] Demographics of the purge listAccording to the Palm Beach Post, among other problems with the list, although blacks accounted for 88% of those removed from the rolls, they made up only about 11% of Florida's voters.[9]

Voter demographics authority David Bositis, a senior research associate at the Joint Center for Political and Economic Studies in Washington, DC, reviewed The Nation's findings and concluded that the purge-and-block program was "a patently obvious technique to discriminate against black voters". He noted that based on nationwide conviction rates, African-Americans would account for 46% of the ex-felon group wrongly disfranchised.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida_Central_Voter_File

Amnorix
06-04-2012, 02:24 PM
Why in the world would they order the investigation stopped when they already found supposedly 180,000 that appear to be illegal?


It's a game. Wait until shortly before the election, then come up with what seems to be a reasonable reason to "clean things up" before the election, then use methods that "accidentally" sweep lots of legal voters out of the system, then rub your hands in glee when you win the state by a squeaker partly because you eliminated part of the competition.

Florida did this before. There's a decent argument that the 2000 election was stolen because of it. Not because of hanging chads and a somewhat bullshit SCOTUS opinion, but because of the voter "purge" that had happened before anyone even went to teh ballot box.

vailpass
06-04-2012, 02:25 PM
You forg ot the key piece....they'll need a drunk kennedy.

I was only listing the variables.

Amnorix
06-04-2012, 02:38 PM
Other games Florida is playing -- make it as hard as possible to engage in voter registration drives. After all, that's how many minorities -- with a perfectly legal right to vote -- get enrolled. But they tend to vote Democratic so let's try to prevent that.

A federal judge struck it down, at least in part, and noted in his ruling EXACTLY WHY the law was adopted.

Judge Hinkle doesn’t seem to agree with this logic. He wrote in his ruling: “If ‘closed at the end of the 48-hour period’ is what the statute means, it still imposes an onerous, perhaps virtually impossible burden, at least in some instances. If a voter-registration organization collects a voter-registration application at 8:03 a.m. on Saturday and the appropriate voter-registration office is closed for the weekend, reopening at 8:00 a.m. on Monday, must the organization deliver the application to the voter-registration office between 8:00 a.m. and 8:03 a.m. on Monday? If the goal is to discourage voter-registration drives and thus also to make it harder for new voters to register, this may work. Otherwise there is little reason for such a requirement.”

http://colorlines.com/archives/2012/06/federal_judge_overturns_draconian_voter_registration_rules_in_florida.html

BigChiefFan
06-04-2012, 02:40 PM
Like it's some big choice in the first place. Romney or Obama. Two sides of the same coin.

BucEyedPea
06-04-2012, 02:42 PM
Like it's some big choice in the first place. Romney or Obama. Two sides of the same coin.

Pat Buchanan on Mitt being a FRAUD: (http://lewrockwell.com/buchanan/buchanan243.html)

"Today, it spends 24 percent. Under both parties, under every president since FDR, domestic spending has moved in one direction. "


"The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected." ~ Gilbert Chesterton

HonestChieffan
06-04-2012, 02:42 PM
Chicago politics

Amnorix
06-04-2012, 02:44 PM
Chicago politics


I agree, the tactics Florida Republicans are using is very reminscent of old-school Chicago politics. Glad you see that also.






:p

mlyonsd
06-04-2012, 02:45 PM
Other games Florida is playing -- make it as hard as possible to engage in voter registration drives. After all, that's how many minorities -- with a perfectly legal right to vote -- get enrolled. But they tend to vote Democratic so let's try to prevent that.

A federal judge struck it down, at least in part, and noted in his ruling EXACTLY WHY the law was adopted.



http://colorlines.com/archives/2012/06/federal_judge_overturns_draconian_voter_registration_rules_in_florida.htmlYes, we get it, accuracy when it comes to who votes in elections only matters when your party has something to lose.

Cave Johnson
06-04-2012, 02:52 PM
It's a game. Wait until shortly before the election, then come up with what seems to be a reasonable reason to "clean things up" before the election, then use methods that "accidentally" sweep lots of legal voters out of the system, then rub your hands in glee when you win the state by a squeaker partly because you eliminated part of the competition.

Florida did this before. There's a decent argument that the 2000 election was stolen because of it. Not because of hanging chads and a somewhat bullshit SCOTUS opinion, but because of the voter "purge" that had happened before anyone even went to teh ballot box.

Not to mention the 2004 election in Ohio, where they declared a terrorism alert and counted the votes in secret.

vailpass
06-04-2012, 02:54 PM
Other games Florida is playing -- make it as hard as possible to engage in voter registration drives. After all, that's how many minorities -- with a perfectly legal right to vote -- get enrolled. But they tend to vote Democratic so let's try to prevent that.

A federal judge struck it down, at least in part, and noted in his ruling EXACTLY WHY the law was adopted.



http://colorlines.com/archives/2012/06/federal_judge_overturns_draconian_voter_registration_rules_in_florida.html

colorlines.com?

Amnorix
06-04-2012, 03:05 PM
colorlines.com?


No clue. Just did a Google search and skimmed the article.

dirk digler
06-04-2012, 03:05 PM
Definitely..

http://now.msn.com/now/0531-vet-not-citizen.aspx?_p=187048e9-1471-4c86-8108-3cb7fb609e80

http://blu.stb.s-msn.com/i/7E/D5C89CA68D8086E9D4A3F2188A6992.jpg

You'd think the Bronze Star that Bill Internicola earned during World War II would prove he's a U.S. citizen. Florida officials recently informed the 91-year-old veteran that he's not, and that he needs to prove otherwise if he wants to vote in that state. The Brooklyn-born Internicola somehow found himself on the wrong side of a controversial program meant to remove noncitizens from Florida's voter rolls, and he's not happy. "I went crazy," he said (http://miamiherald.typepad.com/nakedpolitics/2012/05/world-war-ii-vet-in-broward-on-list-of-potential-noncitizen-voters.html#storylink=misearch). "I've been voting since I was 18 years old."

Internicola had 30 days to respond to the elections division. He sent his discharge papers and tour of duty. They should send him an apology. And a thank you note.

vailpass
06-04-2012, 03:09 PM
No clue. Just did a Google search and skimmed the article.

I hear you. Was just wondering what that was and if there was any visible bias.

vailpass
06-04-2012, 03:10 PM
Definitely..

http://now.msn.com/now/0531-vet-not-citizen.aspx?_p=187048e9-1471-4c86-8108-3cb7fb609e80

http://blu.stb.s-msn.com/i/7E/D5C89CA68D8086E9D4A3F2188A6992.jpg

You'd think the Bronze Star that Bill Internicola earned during World War II would prove he's a U.S. citizen. Florida officials recently informed the 91-year-old veteran that he's not, and that he needs to prove otherwise if he wants to vote in that state. The Brooklyn-born Internicola somehow found himself on the wrong side of a controversial program meant to remove noncitizens from Florida's voter rolls, and he's not happy. "I went crazy," he said (http://miamiherald.typepad.com/nakedpolitics/2012/05/world-war-ii-vet-in-broward-on-list-of-potential-noncitizen-voters.html#storylink=misearch). "I've been voting since I was 18 years old."

Internicola had 30 days to respond to the elections division. He sent his discharge papers and tour of duty. They should send him an apology. And a thank you note.

If a program isn't 100% perfect is should be eliminated. We need to apply that standard to all federal programs, don't you think?

Bwana
06-04-2012, 03:17 PM
You forg ot the key piece....they'll need a drunk kennedy.

Is there another kind of Kennedy?

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_0viO-Dm52sM/SpTZfazrjcI/AAAAAAAAN_0/sfBp58Kfg2g/s400/ted-kennedy-chappaquiddick.jpg

dirk digler
06-04-2012, 03:19 PM
If a program isn't 100% perfect is should be eliminated. We need to apply that standard to all federal programs, don't you think?

Then they need to come up with a better plan instead of using several years old lists

vailpass
06-04-2012, 03:26 PM
Then they need to come up with a better plan instead of using several years old lists

I completely agree that a voter ID verification plan needs to be implemented that is as accurate as humanly possible with the goal of eliminating 100% of illegal voters and 0% of legal voters.
As with any initiative results should be monitored and modifications/upgrades should be actively implemented.

Garcia Bronco
06-04-2012, 03:28 PM
I've had to produce ID everytime I've ever gone to vote. You have to produce your voter reg card too. In the state of Colorado it's the same card.

Amnorix
06-04-2012, 03:40 PM
Yes, we get it, accuracy when it comes to who votes in elections only matters when your party has something to lose.



Precisely not what I said. I actually have no issue with voter ID cards, for example, or other reasonable steps to avoid voter fraud.

What Florida is pretty obviously doing, however, is voter suppression. That I'm not such a big fan of, though you may be for obvious reasons.

alpha_omega
06-04-2012, 03:47 PM
Once again, I will say...why the fuck should you get to vote if you can't prove your eligibility to do so?

mlyonsd
06-04-2012, 03:48 PM
Precisely not what I said. I actually have no issue with voter ID cards, for example, or other reasonable steps to avoid voter fraud.

What Florida is pretty obviously doing, however, is voter suppression. That I'm not such a big fan of, though you may be for obvious reasons.If you consider eliminating non-citizens as registered voters voter suppression I guess I am for it. I see you're not for obvious reasons.

I'll also throw in though if Florida is breaking the law they should stop it.

cosmo20002
06-04-2012, 03:59 PM
I am really starting to wonder whether we will ever have a free election again should Obama win in November.

Just because you wonder about something doesn't mean that there is any basis for it or that you aren't a lunatic.

Amnorix
06-04-2012, 04:06 PM
Once again, I will say...why the fuck should you get to vote if you can't prove your eligibility to do so?


You shouldn't.

But that's not all that is going on here, as you will learn if you read the thread more carefully.

Amnorix
06-04-2012, 04:09 PM
If you consider eliminating non-citizens as registered voters voter suppression I guess I am for it. I see you're not for obvious reasons.

I'll also throw in though if Florida is breaking the law they should stop it.


I'm amused that the right thinks that Democrats getting dead people to vote is a heinous crime but Republicans designing something that will sweep legal voters out of the ballot box is fine.

I'll say it again -- I have no problem with making people prove their eligible to vote. I don't have an issue with voter ID cards (so long as it's not just a disguised poll tax).

But putting a program in place that is obviously designed to block registration of people legally entitled to vote, and/or sweep registered voters off the rolls because they fall within certain demographics -- not so much.

Bewbies
06-04-2012, 04:25 PM
This is why you should be forced to prove you are a legal voter when you show up at the polls.

Of course, Holder has sued to prevent states from doing that too.

headsnap
06-04-2012, 05:14 PM
I'm amused that the right thinks that Democrats getting dead people to vote is a heinous crime but Republicans designing something that will sweep legal voters out of the ballot box is fine.

I'll say it again -- I have no problem with making people prove their eligible to vote. I don't have an issue with voter ID cards (so long as it's not just a disguised poll tax).

But putting a program in place that is obviously designed to block registration of people legally entitled to vote, and/or sweep registered voters off the rolls because they fall within certain demographics -- not so much.

so the right just thinks that Democrats are getting dead people to vote but it's OBVIOUS that Florida is doing this to block & sweep those entitled off the rolls.


gotcha! :thumb:

AustinChief
06-04-2012, 05:32 PM
I am sick and tired of this crap. Please explain to me why we shouldn't have ACCURATE elections? If you disagree with Florida's methods.. fine.. offer an alternative, because the status quo is broken. I don't care if you think it "isn't really a problem." If it COULD be a problem, it IS a problem.

I'm frustrated with this to the point where if the Dems keep blocking any and all attempts to fix/change the system, then I say fuck it and let's all just fucking cheat the system! I am absolutely certain that with the holes in the current systems I could manage to do some series damage if I set my mind to it.

BucEyedPea
06-04-2012, 05:44 PM
One solution I have for elections is get rid of all the Diebold machines. I've no problem with IDs.

BucEyedPea
06-04-2012, 05:46 PM
Florida was accused of this by the Dems on the 2000 election. Look what happened after that election too.


Bring in the UN Monitors.

AustinChief
06-04-2012, 05:50 PM
One solution I have for elections is get rid of all the Diebold machines. I've no problem with IDs.

Great idea.. we can cast our votes with broken pieces of pottery with the candidates names scratched on them. Jesus, you're a loon.

vailpass
06-04-2012, 05:53 PM
I am sick and tired of this crap. Please explain to me why we shouldn't have ACCURATE elections? If you disagree with Florida's methods.. fine.. offer an alternative, because the status quo is broken. I don't care if you think it "isn't really a problem." If it COULD be a problem, it IS a problem.

I'm frustrated with this to the point where if the Dems keep blocking any and all attempts to fix/change the system, then I say **** it and let's all just ****ing cheat the system! I am absolutely certain that with the holes in the current systems I could manage to do some series damage if I set my mind to it.

That.

AustinChief
06-04-2012, 06:44 PM
Just to be clear. I want a system where EVERYONE who should be voting .. does vote (and only them). I want the system to be easy and transparent. This is a complete guess on my parts, but I would think a "perfect" system would benefit lefties more than anyone else... so why are they so opposed to getting it done?

dirk digler
06-04-2012, 06:53 PM
I am sick and tired of this crap. Please explain to me why we shouldn't have ACCURATE elections? If you disagree with Florida's methods.. fine.. offer an alternative, because the status quo is broken. I don't care if you think it "isn't really a problem." If it COULD be a problem, it IS a problem.

I'm frustrated with this to the point where if the Dems keep blocking any and all attempts to fix/change the system, then I say fuck it and let's all just fucking cheat the system! I am absolutely certain that with the holes in the current systems I could manage to do some series damage if I set my mind to it.

It isn't a problem unless you consider 0.0009% a problem

headsnap
06-04-2012, 07:05 PM
It isn't a problem unless you consider 0.0009% a problem

you could to a lot if you concentrated that 0.0009% in one place... ;)

BucEyedPea
06-04-2012, 07:08 PM
Great idea.. we can cast our votes with broken pieces of pottery with the candidates names scratched on them. Jesus, you're a loon.

Actually, you're the loon because you're ignorant about this and have no argument to defend your outlash. That's how projection works in people. Not to mention your own loony idea of direct democracy with a national referendum on what should be funded when that's the authority of congress.

The entire state of Florida got rid of Diebold due to political pressure about them not leaving any paper trail after the punch ballots were discarded after the 2000 election They were replaced with optical scanners which are still hi-tech but leave a paper trail. I think some other places replaced them too. They need to be scrapped

Guess you were in the dark somewhere, like under a rock, where some states saw the common sense in getting rid of these.

AustinChief
06-04-2012, 07:12 PM
It isn't a problem unless you consider 0.0009% a problem

I do. I consider.0000000000000000001% a massive problem when it's easily fixed. Well, it's easily fixed unless you're a complete Luddite. And we have NO CLUE how much of a problem it is. Don't pretend you know. I certainly don't. I have looked into the "data" on it and all it tells us is that we don;t even know what we don't know... because the various systems out there all have massive holes. I honestly don't think they are being exploited in most cases... but WHY TAKE THE CHANCE? Please explain to me ONE LEGIT reason for not FIXING it. This isn't a partisan issue for me.. it's about my extreme fixation on ACCURACY in all things... but for God's sake especially elections.

Chiefshrink
06-04-2012, 07:13 PM
Actually, you're the loon because you're ignorant about this and have no argument to defend your outlash. That's how projection works in people. Not to mention your own loony idea of direct democracy with a national referendum on what should be funded when that's the authority of congress.

The entire state of Florida got rid of Diebold due to political pressure about them not leaving any paper trail after the punch ballots were discarded after the 2000 election They were replaced with optical scanners which are still hi-tech but leave a paper trail. I think some other places replaced them too. They need to be scrapped

Guess you were in the dark somewhere, like under a rock, where some states saw the common sense in getting rid of these.

You just Gina'd him. :LOL:

BucEyedPea
06-04-2012, 07:18 PM
Maryland is another state that replaced Diebold. I believe only some districts in NH and PA have them.

dirk digler
06-04-2012, 07:27 PM
I do. I consider.0000000000000000001% a massive problem when it's easily fixed. Well, it's easily fixed unless you're a complete Luddite. And we have NO CLUE how much of a problem it is. Don't pretend you know. I certainly don't. I have looked into the "data" on it and all it tells us is that we don;t even know what we don't know... because the various systems out there all have massive holes. I honestly don't think they are being exploited in most cases... but WHY TAKE THE CHANCE? Please explain to me ONE LEGIT reason for not FIXING it. This isn't a partisan issue for me.. it's about my extreme fixation on ACCURACY in all things... but for God's sake especially elections.

.000009 is about as perfect a system as you are going to get. Any system we have will be able to be exploited. Am all for example a national ID card but I am not naive to think that people won't be able to replicate it like they do with SS cards or Drivers Licenses.

The bigger problem is voter manipulation\fraud by people in power\office that is where reform needs to be.

AustinChief
06-04-2012, 07:28 PM
Actually, you're the loon because you're ignorant about this and have no argument to defend your outlash. That's how projection works in people. Not to mention your own loony idea of direct democracy with a national referendum on what should be funded when that's the authority of congress.

The entire state of Florida got rid of Diebold due to political pressure about them not leaving any paper trail after the punch ballots were discarded after the 2000 election They were replaced with optical scanners which are still hi-tech but leave a paper trail. I think some other places replaced them too. They need to be scrapped

Guess you were in the dark somewhere, like under a rock, where some states saw the common sense in getting rid of these.
oh geez. The "diebold" machines in the early days were crap.. yes we should get rid of 10 year old "beta" machines. The current tech (which diebold sold and no longer is a part of) leaves a paper trail and are secure. BTW most of the later diebold controversy was espoused by halfwit "experts" who don't know their ass from a hole in the ground. Much like the web tech "experts" who "proved" that the anti-Paul video was from Huntsman or the imaging "experts" who "proved" that the Obama's birth certificate was forged. There are enough LEGITIMATE problems in the world without the tinfoil hat crowd's input.

Bewbies
06-04-2012, 07:28 PM
Maryland is another state that replaced Diebold. I believe only some districts in NH and PA have them.

Then it's a huge issue nationwide!!!!

AustinChief
06-04-2012, 07:33 PM
.000009 is about as perfect a system as you are going to get. Any system we have will be able to be exploited. Am all for example a national ID card but I am not naive to think that people won't be able to replicate it like they do with SS cards or Drivers Licenses.

The bigger problem is voter manipulation\fraud by people in power\office that is where reform needs to be.

I agree that ANY fraud should be eliminated... if that comes from those in power, even more so. My point is that you (nor I) have any clue what the real figure is. I can say with NO DOUBT that there are massive, easily exploitable holes in the current systems. However, I have no clue how much (if any) those holes are actually exploited. It's virtually unknowable. So why not fix the holes?

And yes any system will have exploits. I have worked in computers for the majority of my life. I know this very well. BUT that doesn't mean you ignore known issues.

BucEyedPea
06-04-2012, 07:35 PM
oh geez. The "diebold" machines in the early days were crap.. yes we should get rid of 10 year old "beta" machines. The current tech (which diebold sold and no longer is a part of) leaves a paper trail and are secure. BTW most of the later diebold controversy was espoused but halfwit "experts" who don't know their ass from a hole in the ground. Much like the web tech "experts" who "proved" that the anti-Paul video was from Huntsman or the imaging "experts" who "proved" that the Obama's birth certificate was forged. There are enough LEGITIMATE problems in the world without the tinfoil hat crowd's input.

There is absolutely nothing tin-foil about people wanting a paper trail. That afterall is the point. Cheating does happen. Hand counts, with witnesses, are necessary at times.

And fyi, I wasn't the one that went on and on about that Huntsman issue particularly once counter arguments were made. Your uncharitable disposition is grasping at straws. Take a tourette's syndrome pill....and quit being so angry.

mlyonsd
06-04-2012, 07:36 PM
I'm amused that the right thinks that Democrats getting dead people to vote is a heinous crime but Republicans designing something that will sweep legal voters out of the ballot box is fine.

I'll say it again -- I have no problem with making people prove their eligible to vote. I don't have an issue with voter ID cards (so long as it's not just a disguised poll tax).

But putting a program in place that is obviously designed to block registration of people legally entitled to vote, and/or sweep registered voters off the rolls because they fall within certain demographics -- not so much.
If the federal government doesn't give a shit about illegal immigrants I see no reason the states shouldn't flex all the muscles they have to address the issue. Letting illegals vote in local elections does affect the state so I understand their concern.

You say you are for voter ID cards but the left is the one standing in the way of it. One would wonder why you don't see this as at least a partial remedy.

When dems take control of Florida and go after republicans using dead republican registered voter ID's to vote hopefully I'll share your deep concern. If I don't feel free to call me on it.

Until you can prove this was some republican conspiracy to eliminate 3000 legal voters spare me the lecture.

AustinChief
06-04-2012, 07:38 PM
There is absolutely nothing tin-foil about people wanting a paper trail. That's the point. Cheating does happen.

And fyi, I wasn't the one that went on and on about that Huntsman issue particularly once counter arguments were made. Your uncharitable disposition is grasping at straws. Take a tourette's syndrome pill....and cheer up.

The Huntsman thing wasn't aimed at you, it was aimed at the "experts" who line up to "validate" nutty shit. If you are talking about the old Diebold machines.. I am with you, but those have been gone a LONG time now. And yes, they were crap. I assumed you meant all "diebold-style" voting machines, even the current crop which are fine.

BucEyedPea
06-04-2012, 07:39 PM
Then it's a huge issue nationwide!!!!

Same can be said of ID's!!!!

BucEyedPea
06-04-2012, 07:41 PM
The Huntsman thing wasn't aimed at you, it was aimed at the "experts" who line up to "validate" nutty shit. If you are talking about the old Diebold machines.. I am with you, but those have been gone a LONG time now. And yes, they were crap. I assumed you meant all "diebold-style" voting machines, even the current crop which are fine.

Some places have yet to get rid of them. Some districts in PA and NH. I thought most places stopped using them already anyway, but was surprised when I found out about these two. There's a possibility of more.

AustinChief
06-04-2012, 07:42 PM
If the federal government doesn't give a shit about illegal immigrants I see no reason the states shouldn't flex all the muscles they have to address the issue. Letting illegals vote in local elections does affect the state so I understand their concern.

You say you are for voter ID cards but the left is the one standing in the way of it. One would wonder why you don't see this as at least a partial remedy.

When dems take control of Florida and go after republicans using dead republican registered voter ID's to vote hopefully I'll share your deep concern. If I don't feel free to call me on it.

Until you can prove this was some republican conspiracy to eliminate 3000 legal voters spare me the lecture.

I'm with Amnorix on this. It does "smell" like it has a certain amount of partisanship to it. But the issue should be about FIXING what they are supposedly trying to do, not stopping the program cold. If the Justice Dept wanted a fair election they would concentrate on changes or controls not just injunctions.

dirk digler
06-04-2012, 07:43 PM
I agree that ANY fraud should be eliminated... if that comes from those in power, even more so. My point is that you (nor I) have any clue what the real figure is. I can say with NO DOUBT that there are massive, easily exploitable holes in the current systems. However, I have no clue how much (if any) those holes are actually exploited. It's virtually unknowable. So why not fix the holes?

And yes any system will have exploits. I have worked in computers for the majority of my life. I know this very well. BUT that doesn't mean you ignore known issues.

In some cases they do. For example remember all the Dems bitching about voter fraud in Ohio in 2004? Well it turns out after examining all the votes it came out to be like .000004

For example, a 2005 statewide study in Ohio found four instances of ineligible persons voting or attempting to vote in 2002 and 2004, out of 9 million votes cast.

AustinChief
06-04-2012, 07:43 PM
Some places have yet to get rid of them. Some districts in PA and NH. I thought most places stopped using them already anyway, but was surprised when I found out about these two. There's a possibility of more.

Are you certain they are the ORIGINAL Diebolds? Diebold changed them extensively fairly quickly and added paper trails right away. If they ARE the original machines, I wouldn't be too concerned... I don't know many people in PA or NH who really deserve to vote anyway. :D

AustinChief
06-04-2012, 07:47 PM
In some cases they do. For example remember all the Dems bitching about voter fraud in Ohio in 2004? Well it turns out after examining all the votes it came out to be like .000004

I'm always happy to hear that voter fraud ISN'T happening.. but that doesn't mean we stop trying to fix the system. Of course, "fixing" shouldn't mean rigging. It should mean a system that is strict but EASY and fair for ALL eligible voters. I really am not partisan on this. I would fight and die on this issue even if it were only so 10,000 more far left loonies could get their votes counted and it meant 10,000 dead republicans didn't count. :D

BucEyedPea
06-04-2012, 08:04 PM
Are you certain they are the ORIGINAL Diebolds? Diebold changed them extensively fairly quickly and added paper trails right away. If they ARE the original machines, I wouldn't be too concerned... I don't know many people in PA or NH who really deserve to vote anyway. :D

First off, I never knew of their evolution. I just thought they weren't used much after a certain date being replaced with optical scanners. If they have a paper trail fine. Unless it's still touch screen and prints out a paper receipt.

BucEyedPea
06-04-2012, 08:09 PM
BTW by what date has Diebold improved? Because in 2008 they admitted to losing votes.

dirk digler
06-04-2012, 08:09 PM
I'm always happy to hear that voter fraud ISN'T happening.. but that doesn't mean we stop trying to fix the system. Of course, "fixing" shouldn't mean rigging. It should mean a system that is strict but EASY and fair for ALL eligible voters. I really am not partisan on this. I would fight and die on this issue even if it were only so 10,000 more far left loonies could get their votes counted and it meant 10,000 dead republicans didn't count. :D

Maybe it isn't happening because the law is stiff enough that makes it stupid to do? 5 years and $10,000 just to cast one illegal vote. It seems stupid to try.

AustinChief
06-04-2012, 08:11 PM
BTW by what date has Diebold improved? Because in 2008 they admitted to losing votes.

My understanding is that that was in reference to older models, but regardless they saw big changes again in 2010.

mlyonsd
06-04-2012, 08:15 PM
I'm with Amnorix on this. It does "smell" like it has a certain amount of partisanship to it. But the issue should be about FIXING what they are supposedly trying to do, not stopping the program cold. If the Justice Dept wanted a fair election they would concentrate on changes or controls not just injunctions.I don't care what it smells like. Prove the state is breaking the law and I'll agree it should stop.

The system should be fixed and because it isn't the state is trying to reconcile data between two different databases. So to me, it sounds like the state is doing what they can to address the failure the federal government is presenting them. Remember who votes affects Florida at the local level just as much as the national election.

And Justice stepping in to try to stop it can be considered exactly the same voter fraud manipulation Amno is accusing Florida of.

WilliamTheIrish
06-04-2012, 08:37 PM
Lost in the "They're trying to STEAL the election"!! is the fact that you have to maintain public confidence in the integrity of the system. True or not, (and I believe this is the R's crying wolf) if public perception is that the system is need of repair, then you have address it.

And it's not just republicans that want voters to produce ID's. Delaware and Rhode Island, both Democratically controlled houses, enacted these laws.

cosmo20002
06-04-2012, 09:33 PM
I have read several times that Obama is cancelling the November elections, so none of this matters anyway.

tredadda
06-04-2012, 10:35 PM
Once again, I will say...why the **** should you get to vote if you can't prove your eligibility to do so?

Because as the argument apparently goes....................Forcing someone to actually show an ID is a way to single out poor and minorities. The same poor (of all races mind you) and minorities who most likely live off of government subsistence. The same subsistence they are apparently able to collect from the government without ever having to actually show any ID to prove they are entitled to it.

Amnorix
06-05-2012, 05:51 AM
I am sick and tired of this crap. Please explain to me why we shouldn't have ACCURATE elections? If you disagree with Florida's methods.. fine.. offer an alternative, because the status quo is broken. I don't care if you think it "isn't really a problem." If it COULD be a problem, it IS a problem.

I'm frustrated with this to the point where if the Dems keep blocking any and all attempts to fix/change the system, then I say fuck it and let's all just fucking cheat the system! I am absolutely certain that with the holes in the current systems I could manage to do some series damage if I set my mind to it.


Seems to me there ought to be a reasonably simple fix to voter fraud concerns, which is that voters produce either a driver's license or other form of acceptable voter ID at the time they go to the polls.

So long as you can get free voter ID (i.e. not a disguised poll tax), then that seems fine to me. I'm sure some Democrats don't like it, but I don't really care.

Amnorix
06-05-2012, 05:57 AM
If the federal government doesn't give a shit about illegal immigrants I see no reason the states shouldn't flex all the muscles they have to address the issue. Letting illegals vote in local elections does affect the state so I understand their concern.

I agree that illegal immigrants should not vote in elections, either local or national. There's not really much of an argument here about that.

You say you are for voter ID cards but the left is the one standing in the way of it. One would wonder why you don't see this as at least a partial remedy.

I agree that elements of the "left" are against voter ID cards. I'm not familiar with the issues around why it can't be implemented despite their opposition -- i.e. whether they can't get the law passed, or whether legal challenges to such laws have been successful.

What Florida is doing seems to me to be very similar to what they did in 2000, which is as much voter suppression as voter correction, if you will. Sweep with a VERY broad brush and if you happen to sweep ALOT of perfectly legal, but likely Democrat, voters along with the intended improper voters, then so be it. If you read my prior post, you'll see that there is significant evidence that Florida's Republican leadership back in 2000 did not give a shit about a system that was absolutely going to generate alot of "false positives".


When dems take control of Florida and go after republicans using dead republican registered voter ID's to vote hopefully I'll share your deep concern. If I don't feel free to call me on it.

Until you can prove this was some republican conspiracy to eliminate 3000 legal voters spare me the lecture.

No proof anyone can muster would possibly satisfy you unless someone was convicted and in jail for it. Your complete lack of concern of whether the system is reasonably designed to be limited to illegal voters is noted.

Amnorix
06-05-2012, 06:00 AM
I'm with Amnorix on this. It does "smell" like it has a certain amount of partisanship to it. But the issue should be about FIXING what they are supposedly trying to do, not stopping the program cold. If the Justice Dept wanted a fair election they would concentrate on changes or controls not just injunctions.


Don't think the Justice Department actually designs/implements voting methods. That's for the states. The Justice Department only makes sure that what the states do is in compliance with the law.

Apparently there is a disagreement as to whether Florida is doing violates a federal law. All the Justice Department has the power to do is sue them to stop it.

To the degree the Justice Department went to them and said "instead of what you're doing, which is illegal, we think it's fine and proper for you to do ABC" and Florida said "yeah, thanks for your advice and all, but we have lawyers too and we think it's legal so fuck off", I have no idea. That is what I would have expected to happen, but that doesn't mean it did.

mlyonsd
06-05-2012, 07:58 AM
No proof anyone can muster would possibly satisfy you unless someone was convicted and in jail for it. Your complete lack of concern of whether the system is reasonably designed to be limited to illegal voters is noted.Your complete lack of concern as to the Justice Department's intent is also noted.

We're on opposite sides of the same coin. I'm ok with that.

Amnorix
06-05-2012, 08:02 AM
Your complete lack of concern as to the Justice Department's intent is also noted.

We're on opposite sides of the same coin. I'm ok with that.


It's FLORIDA's responsibility to come up with a system that is LEGAL which ensures that legal citizens vote, and illegal citizens don't, not the Justice Department's. The Justice Department is pointing out that Florida's system is apparently illegal.

You're blaming the cop for pulling teh guy over for speeding. Your argument makes no sense at all.

mlyonsd
06-05-2012, 10:06 AM
It's FLORIDA's responsibility to come up with a system that is LEGAL which ensures that legal citizens vote, and illegal citizens don't, not the Justice Department's. The Justice Department is pointing out that Florida's system is apparently illegal.

You're blaming the cop for pulling teh guy over for speeding. Your argument makes no sense at all.Whether you like it or not it makes just as much sense as your argument.

In your mind you've already convicted Florida guilty of legal voter suppression.

Prove it or fire the cop.

And remember that same cop is the one that allowed the Black Panthers to get away with voter intimidation.

Like I said, we have opposing views on the same coin.

Setsuna
06-05-2012, 12:54 PM
I live here and....I know nothing about this. :(