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View Full Version : Int'l Issues Obama Grants Workers Permits to Young Immigrants


Detoxing
06-15-2012, 09:35 AM
WASHINGTON — The Obama administration will stop deporting and begin granting work permits to younger illegal immigrants who came to the U.S. as children and have since led law-abiding lives.

The policy change, described to The Associated Press by two senior administration officials, will affect as many as 800,000 immigrants who have lived in fear of deportation. It also bypasses Congress and partially achieves the goals of the so-called DREAM Act, a long-sought but never enacted plan to establish a path toward citizenship for young people who came to the United States illegally but who have attended college or served in the military.
Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano was to announce the new policy Friday, one week before President Barack Obama plans to address the National Association of Latino Elected and Appointed Officials’ annual conference in Orlando, Fla. Republican presidential challenger Mitt Romney is scheduled to speak to the group on Thursday.

Under the administration plan, illegal immigrants will be immune from deportation if they were brought to the United States before they turned 16 and are younger than 30, have been in the country for at least five continuous years, have no criminal history, graduated from a U.S. high school or earned a GED, or served in the military. They also can apply for a work permit that will be good for two years with no limits on how many times it can be renewed. The officials who described the plan spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss it in advance of the official announcement.
The policy will not lead toward citizenship but will remove the threat of deportation and grant the ability to work legally, leaving eligible immigrants able to remain in the United States for extended periods.

“Many of these young people have already contributed to our country in significant ways,” Napolitano wrote in a memorandum describing the administration’s action. “Prosecutorial discretion, which is used in so many other areas, is especially justified here.”
The extraordinary move comes in an election year in which the Hispanic vote could be critical in swing states like Colorado, Nevada and Florida. While Obama enjoys support from a majority of Hispanic voters, Latino enthusiasm for the president has been tempered by the slow economic recovery, his inability to win congressional support for a broad overhaul of immigration laws and by his administration’s aggressive deportation policy. Activists opposing his deportation policies last week mounted a hunger strike at an Obama campaign office in Denver, and other protests were planned for this weekend.

The change is likely to cause an outcry from congressional Republicans, who are sure to perceive Obama’s actions as an end run around them. Republicans already have complained that previous administration uses of prosecutorial discretion in deportations amount to back-door amnesty. Romney and many Republican lawmakers want tighter border security measures before considering changes in immigration law. Romney opposes offering legal status to illegal immigrants who attend college but has said he would do so for those who serve in the armed forces.

An NBC News/Wall Street Journal poll last month found Obama leading Romney among Hispanic voters 61 percent to 27 percent. But his administration’s deportation policies have come under fire, and Latino leaders have raised the subject in private meetings with the president. In 2011, Immigration and Customs Enforcement deported a record 396,906 people and is expected to deport about 400,000 this year.

A December poll by the Pew Hispanic Center showed that 59 percent of Latinos disapproved of the president’s handling of deportations.

The changes come a year after the administration announced plans to focus on deporting serious criminals, immigrants who pose threats to public safety and national security, and serious immigration law violators.
One of the officials said the latest policy change is just another step in the administration’s evolving approach to immigration.

Under the plan, immigrants whose deportation cases are pending in immigration court will have to prove their eligibility for a reprieve to ICE, which will begin dealing with such cases in 60 days. Any immigrant who already has a deportation order and those who never have been encountered by immigration authorities will deal with the U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services.

The exact details of how the program will work, including how much immigrants will have to pay to apply and what proof they will need, still are being worked out.
In making it harder to deport, the Obama administration is in essence employing the same eligibility requirements spelled out in the proposed DREAM Act.

The administration officials stopped short of calling the change an administrative DREAM Act — the name is an acronym for Development, Relief and Education for Alien Minors — but the qualifications meet those laid out in a 2010 version that failed in the Senate after passing in the House. They said the DREAM Act, in some form, and comprehensive overhaul of the immigration system remained an administration priority.

Illegal immigrant children won’t be eligible to apply for the deportation waiver until they turn 16, but the officials said younger children won’t be deported either.

Last year, Napolitano announced plans to review about 300,000 pending deportation cases and indefinitely suspend those that didn’t meet department priorities. So far, Immigration and Customs Enforcement has reviewed more than 232,000 cases and decided to stop working on about 20,000. About 4,000 of those 20,000 have opted to keep fighting in court to stay in the United States legally. For the people who opted to close their cases, work permits are not guaranteed.


Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/06/15/obama-administration-to-offer-immunity-to-younger-immigrants/#ixzz1xsPDJqCD

Detoxing
06-15-2012, 09:36 AM
I love it. This is exactly what i'e been asking for. A freaking chance to allow good, young students to work legally.

Oh, and please proceed to bitch and moan. Republican tears are yummy.

Mile High Mania
06-15-2012, 09:38 AM
I don't necessarily have a problem with it as long as they are NOT allowed to vote.

Detoxing
06-15-2012, 09:39 AM
I don't necessarily have a problem with it as long as they are NOT allowed to vote.

I don't care about them voting either. I just want them to be able to work legally and have an opportunity to do something with themselves.

stevieray
06-15-2012, 09:40 AM
Oh, and please proceed to bitch and moan. Republican tears are yummy.
...must be the DNA train you hitched your wagon behind....LMAO

alpha_omega
06-15-2012, 09:42 AM
Excellent timing.

blaise
06-15-2012, 09:43 AM
I'm assuming it's not just limited to Latinos. I mean, I realize that's the target because of the desire for the Latino vote, but I would think it's just immigrants as a whole.

Detoxing
06-15-2012, 09:44 AM
...must be the DNA train you hitched your wagon behind....LMAO

http://img839.imageshack.us/img839/163/cryingreleasesstresshor.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/839/cryingreleasesstresshor.jpg/)

Detoxing
06-15-2012, 09:44 AM
I'm assuming it's not just limited to Latinos. I mean, I realize that's the target because of the desire for the Latino vote, but I would think it's just immigrants as a whole.

Indeed.

Detoxing
06-15-2012, 09:44 AM
Excellent timing.

haha that too

blaise
06-15-2012, 09:49 AM
I didn't really like the DREAM Act. To me, it was going to lead to people saying, "Well, you're letting me stay, how are you going to deport my parents?" Okay, we'll let them stay, too.
I'm sympathetic to immigrants. I'd be fine with letting more in and making the process easier for them to come in the first place, but I didn't like the DREAM Act idea. I seems to encourage illegal behavior.

cosmo20002
06-15-2012, 09:50 AM
According to sportsshrink, all the universities in Colorado are inviting them to attend for free, and in-state tuition for Colorado residents will be raised by 200% to pay for it.

blaise
06-15-2012, 09:52 AM
According to sportsshrink, all the universities in Colorado are inviting them to attend for free, and in-state tuition for Colorado residents will be raised by 200% to pay for it.

Just so you know, when you make posts like you did the other day saying Republicans are just a bunch of old racists it doesn't make you seem much better than him.

Detoxing
06-15-2012, 09:55 AM
I didn't really like the DREAM Act. To me, it was going to lead to people saying, "Well, you're letting me stay, how are you going to deport my parents?" Okay, we'll let them stay, too.
I'm sympathetic to immigrants. I'd be fine with letting more in and making the process easier for them to come in the first place, but I didn't like the DREAM Act idea. I seems to encourage illegal behavior.

If it makes you feel any better, this isn't the DREAM Act. I agree, i didn't like the loophole that would've been available had the DREAM act passed that would've EVENTUALLY allowed them to find a path to citizenship for their parents.

However, i think this is a good step in the right direction. It doesn't grant citizenship, just a right to work legally IF they've finished HS and have no criminal record.

It's a win/win IMO.

Donger
06-15-2012, 10:04 AM
I think that the consequence of this is that the parents should be immediately deported.

vailpass
06-15-2012, 10:06 AM
Encouraging more illegals to drag their kids across, not good. Obama needs to be gone yesterday.

The_Grand_Illusion
06-15-2012, 10:10 AM
Encouraging more illegals to drag their kids across, not good. Obama needs to be gone yesterday.

Not to mention bypassing Congress. Do we even have a Constitution anymore?

:shake:

Donger
06-15-2012, 10:12 AM
Not to mention bypassing Congress. Do we even have a Constitution anymore?

:shake:

It's okay. He said he wouldn't do it:

“The fact of the matter is there are laws on the books that I have to enforce. And I think there’s been a great disservice done to the cause of getting the Dream Act passed and getting comprehensive immigration passed by perpetrating the notion that somehow, by myself, I can go and do these things. It’s just not true,” Mr. Obama said last year.

Frazod
06-15-2012, 10:13 AM
Not to mention bypassing Congress. Do we even have a Constitution anymore?

:shake:

It's rolled up on top of the shitter in the Oval Office bathroom. Well, what's left of it, anyway.

FD
06-15-2012, 10:15 AM
Seems like a common sense way to deal with the limited resources our immigration courts have. No path to citizenship, but focusing our deportation resources on the worst cases.

Donger
06-15-2012, 10:17 AM
Encouraging more illegals to drag their kids across, not good. Obama needs to be gone yesterday.

Yep, and a slap in the face of every legal immigrant, too.

Donger
06-15-2012, 10:17 AM
Seems like a common sense way to deal with the limited resources our immigration courts have. No path to citizenship, but focusing our deportation resources on the worst cases.

The timing sure is convenient, isn't it?

The_Grand_Illusion
06-15-2012, 10:18 AM
Seems like a common sense way to deal with the limited resources our immigration courts have. No path to citizenship, but focusing our deportation resources on the worst cases.

Oh I guess it's acceptable to trample on the Constitution TO GET MORE FUTURE DEMOCRAT VOTES. You libs are so corrupt.

:mad:

Detoxing
06-15-2012, 10:19 AM
Yep, and a slap in the face of every legal immigrant, too.

lol. It's a work permit. Not citizenship.

You're a funny man, Donger. You wanna charge them the highest possible tuition, but not ok with giving them the means to pay for it. hahaha

blaise
06-15-2012, 10:23 AM
If it makes you feel any better, this isn't the DREAM Act. I agree, i didn't like the loophole that would've been available had the DREAM act passed that would've EVENTUALLY allowed them to find a path to citizenship for their parents.

However, i think this is a good step in the right direction. It doesn't grant citizenship, just a right to work legally IF they've finished HS and have no criminal record.

It's a win/win IMO.

Yeah, I know this isn't the DREAM Act. I was just commenting on it. I generally have mixed emotions on things like this. I'd rather see an actual solution to the overall problem, because like I said I'm sympathetic.
God knows we have enough lazy asses here already who want something for nothing. Look at the OWS crowd. If there's people that want to come and work I'm not against that.

Donger
06-15-2012, 10:24 AM
lol. It's a work permit. Not citizenship.

I'm aware of that. I'm also aware that there are legal methods of gaining the ability to work here.

You're a funny man, Donger. You wanna charge them the highest possible tuition, but not ok with giving them the means to pay for it. hahaha

Whether or not they can pay for education doesn't concern me.

FD
06-15-2012, 10:30 AM
Oh I guess it's acceptable to trample on the Constitution TO GET MORE FUTURE DEMOCRAT VOTES. You libs are so corrupt.

:mad:

What future democrat votes? These people aren't getting any path to citizenship.

If you are looking 20 years or more down the road and talking about their kids, then I disagree. I don't particularly think that hispanics will be Democrats once immigration reform in some form has passed.

cosmo20002
06-15-2012, 10:33 AM
Just so you know, when you make posts like you did the other day saying Republicans are just a bunch of old racists it doesn't make you seem much better than him.

That's not exactly what I said (I believe it was "racist geezers"). Except that me saying that about Rs is obviously a generalization, with maybe a little bit of hyperbole thrown in.

Bottom line is that I wasn't trying to pass it off as a fact. And that is the difference with sportsshrink (and others)--making an assertion to pass it off as fact when they know (or should know) it isn't true.

Detoxing
06-15-2012, 10:37 AM
Whether or not they can pay for education doesn't concern me.

Lol. Hypocrite.

You complain about them leeching off your tax dollars for their free Public education. Now here's an opportunity for them to pay taxes and join the work force to repay what they've taken.....apparently that isn't a good idea to you.

You want them to pay the highest tuition, and not take government assisted loans, but not Ok with giving them the means to actually pay for it themselves.

ROFL. Your views are so twisted and full of shit.

KC Dan
06-15-2012, 10:41 AM
Work permit? What is the unemployment rate for legal American young people? 24-25%? And, now we give work permits to illegal young people. Makes sense..........really?

Donger
06-15-2012, 10:42 AM
Lol. Hypocrite.

You complain about them leeching off your tax dollars for their free Public education. Now here's an opportunity for them to pay taxes and join the work force to repay what they've taken.....apparently that isn't a good idea to you.

You want them to pay the highest tuition, and not take government assisted loans, but not Ok with giving them the means to actually pay for it themselves.

ROFL. Your views are so twisted and full of shit.

My position isn't hypocritical at all. I don't want these people here in the first place.

I have subsidized their education through HS with my tax dollars. I have no problem with them having to pay more than in-state tuition for college as a punishment for their being here illegally while using my tax dollars.

And, again, whether or not they can afford that doesn't concern me at all.

Detoxing
06-15-2012, 10:44 AM
My position isn't hypocritical at all. I don't want these people here in the first place.

I have subsidized their education through HS with my tax dollars. I have no problem with them having to pay more than in-state tuition for college as a punishment for their being here illegally while using my tax dollars.

And, again, whether or not they can afford that doesn't concern me at all.

Lol, if you can't find the hypocrisy in that statement, i don't know what to tell ya.

The_Grand_Illusion
06-15-2012, 10:47 AM
What future democrat votes? These people aren't getting any path to citizenship.

If you are looking 20 years or more down the road and talking about their kids, then I disagree. I don't particularly think that hispanics will be Democrats once immigration reform in some form has passed.

:shake:

BS, this is political pandering in so many ways in an election year. And the worst part is he did it by bypassing Congress. Nice Dicktater you libs brought upon us. But I know, it makes you feel good, despite trampling on the Constitution. Why do you think I call your culture so corrupt? It is because you are.

Donger
06-15-2012, 10:49 AM
Lol, if you can't find the hypocrisy in that statement, i don't know what to tell ya.

Again, there is no hypocrisy. I don't care whether these people have a job or an education.

Detoxing
06-15-2012, 10:50 AM
I find it funny that people are bitching about a work permit.

The biggest problem with Illegal immigration is that they suck from the teet of the tax payer, thus creating a significant cost with no return. That's the one constant argument and biggest issue that is brought up.

Apparently giving the youngest and brightest of these immigrants an opportunity to get off the teet, join the work force and pay back what they've taken in taxes is a problem.

Right wing hypocrisy at it's finest.

What's the matter guys? Dont wanna lose your right to bitch about them leeching off your tax dollar anymore?

Detoxing
06-15-2012, 10:52 AM
Again, there is no hypocrisy. I don't care whether these people have a job or an education.

Again, there is hypocrisy. The fact that you don't care to acknowledge it is your problem, not mine.

vailpass
06-15-2012, 10:55 AM
Best way to get rid of leeches is to pour salt on them.

Donger
06-15-2012, 10:56 AM
Again, there is hypocrisy. The fact that you don't care to acknowledge it is your problem, not mine.

Sorry, but you don't seem to know what hypocrisy is.

qabbaan
06-15-2012, 11:04 AM
Since unemployment is so low, it's a good thing we are adding a massive amount of unskilled labor to the work force.

It's like he is trying to get voted out.

FD
06-15-2012, 11:09 AM
Haley Barbour has endorsed this change:

“America is in a global battle for capital and labor,” he said, praising the work ethic of the millions of Hispanics who have come to the U.S. without proper documentation, including the many who work in Mississippi’s poultry factories. “We need more people in America who want to work.”

Mr. Romney struck a strict immigration posture during the primary campaign, praising undocumented workers who “self deported” and opposing the Dream Act that proposed granting certain rights to the children of some illegal immigrants.

Mr. Barbour, at a breakfast sponsored by the Christian Science Monitor, said it was necessary to create a path to security for “people who have been here for some time” by issuing them work permits and creating a guest worker program. “To say that someone can stay on a work permit is not citizenship,” he said.

http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2012/06/15/barbour-backs-work-permits-for-illegal-immigrants/

Detoxing
06-15-2012, 11:10 AM
Since unemployment is so low, it's a good thing we are adding a massive amount of unskilled labor to the work force.

It's like he is trying to get voted out.

Lol @ Massive. Yes, 800,000 POTENTIAL people is SO massive.

tredadda
06-15-2012, 11:11 AM
Work permit? What is the unemployment rate for legal American young people? 24-25%? And, now we give work permits to illegal young people. Makes sense..........really?

Not saying we should be giving work permits to illegals, but lets not kid ourselves and think that legal American young people are lining up to do the jobs these illegals do.

qabbaan
06-15-2012, 11:17 AM
Lol @ Massive. Yes, 800,000 POTENTIAL people is SO massive.

The number of people unemployed in the administration's most friendly statistics is about 15 million. Adding another million to the labor force is not trivial, especially when you consider that illegals project mostly to jobs in the areas of the economy hardest hit by job loss.

vailpass
06-15-2012, 11:21 AM
The number of people unemployed in the administration's most friendly statistics is about 15 million. Adding another million to the labor force is not trivial, especially when you consider that illegals project mostly to jobs in the areas of the economy hardest hit by job loss.

The illegals feel so entitled due to the treatment they receive from their supporters here that they have no shame, no sense of personal responsibility, in this matter or in any other matter that involves them taking from those who have worked to build it.

Detoxing
06-15-2012, 11:23 AM
The illegals feel so entitled due to the treatment they receive from their supporters here that they have no shame, no sense of personal responsibility, in this matter or in any other matter that involves them taking from those who have worked to build it.

What a load of BS that is....

Detoxing
06-15-2012, 11:27 AM
Sorry, but you don't seem to know what hypocrisy is.

You want them to stop leeching off the tax payer.

You want them to pay the highest tuition possible.

You dont want them eligible for loans or grants.



You dont want them to be able to work so that they are not on the Tax payer dime, able to pay higher tuition, and won't be as dependent on grants/loans.

Hypocrisy.

Sorry that you're in denial.

I guess in Dongers perfect world we could waive a magic wand and make them all disappear. too bad no such wand exists and we need a real world solution to the financial drain. This is a small step towards that solution.

Detoxing
06-15-2012, 11:30 AM
The number of people unemployed in the administration's most friendly statistics is about 15 million. Adding another million to the labor force is not trivial, especially when you consider that illegals project mostly to jobs in the areas of the economy hardest hit by job loss.

I love how you add another 200,000 to the number and then assume that all 800,000 are just going to immediately join the work force.

qabbaan
06-15-2012, 11:32 AM
Something else that occurs to me: we have read about his support among blacks having slipped from the 95+% he won last time to the 80s. Certainly he will win blacks again, but they are probably the absolute hardest hit group by unemployment in the whole nation. Between battering their employment situation and his stance on gay marriage, he would really seem to be at risk of alienating them and watering down turnout.

This seems obvious as an election year ploy to increase his chances in states with high immigrant populations, but I think they have miscalculated.


I wonder how those union laborers in Wisconsin, who perceived that Obama hung them out to dry over his own election chances, feel about granting amnesty to illegals?

I know the union bosses love the idea because they hope to unionize them, but the average blue collar worker in middle America isn't going to be happy about this.

Outside urban areas, many, many people support their families working in factories or plants of various kinds, or working in food service or hospitality where this is going to hit hardest. Not going to play with middle class, blue collar people in swing states.

Detoxing
06-15-2012, 11:35 AM
Something else that occurs to me: we have read about his support among blacks having slipped from the 95+% he won last time to the 80s. Certainly he will win blacks again, but they are probably the absolute hardest hit group by unemployment in the whole nation. Between battering their employment situation and his stance on gay marriage, he would really seem to be at risk of alienating them and watering down turnout.

This seems obvious as an election year ploy to increase his chances in states with high immigrant populations, but I think they have miscalculated.


I wonder how those union laborers in Wisconsin, who perceived that Obama hung them out to dry over his own election chances, feel about granting amnesty to illegals?

I know the union bosses love the idea because they hope to unionize them, but the average blue collar worker in middle America isn't going to be happy about this.

Outside urban areas, many, many people support their families working in factories or plants of various kinds, or working in food service or hospitality where this is going to hit hardest. Not going to play with middle class, blue collar people in swing states.

Amnesty? I musta missed that part in the article where he granted Amnesty...

qabbaan
06-15-2012, 11:36 AM
I love how you add another 200,000 to the number and then assume that all 800,000 are just going to immediately join the work force.

1. This is only wave 1. We all know he'd grant them citizenship tomorrow if he could. There would certainly be more of this if he were reelected.

2. If a government program only ended up costing 20% more than it was originally sold as costing, we should take that and run.

qabbaan
06-15-2012, 11:39 AM
Amnesty? I musta missed that part in the article where he granted Amnesty...

What word would you use to describe stopping any legal/executive/deportive action against illegal workers and giving them work permits?

Detoxing
06-15-2012, 11:41 AM
What word would you use to describe stopping any legal/executive/deportive action against illegal workers and giving them work permits?

Except that Amnesty infers to granting Citizenship, which is not the case here.

Donger
06-15-2012, 11:43 AM
You want them to stop leeching off the tax payer.

You want them to pay the highest tuition possible.

You dont want them eligible for loans or grants.



You dont want them to be able to work so that they are not on the Tax payer dime, able to pay higher tuition, and won't be as dependent on grants/loans.

Hypocrisy.

Sorry that you're in denial.

I guess in Dongers perfect world we could waive a magic wand and make them all disappear. too bad no such wand exists and we need a real world solution to the financial drain. This is a small step towards that solution.

Oh, so you really don't know what hypocrisy is. There is no contradiction in my views.

I'd like to see them all deported. I realize that our present politicians lack the courage to do that, so I'm merely voicing my opinion on what is presently going on.

Again, they are leeches on the public's taxation by us subsidizing their education through HS. Fact.

Again, I don't think their illegality should be rewarded by granting them in-state tuition or slightly higher in-state tuition. They should be forced to pay out-of-state (or not allowed into college at all, you know, since they are illegal). That's an opinion.

My acknowledging the fact that they are leeches and also wanting them to at least pay out-of-state tuition aren't contradictory at all.

qabbaan
06-15-2012, 11:43 AM
Except that Amnesty infers to granting Citizenship, which is not the case here.

I'm afraid you don't know what amnesty means.

vailpass
06-15-2012, 11:47 AM
What a load of BS that is....

Sorry man, but it's true.

Donger
06-15-2012, 11:57 AM
Amnesty? I musta missed that part in the article where he granted Amnesty...

This most certainly is a form of amnesty.

Detoxing
06-15-2012, 12:02 PM
Oh, so you really don't know what hypocrisy is. There is no contradiction in my views.

I'd like to see them all deported. I realize that our present politicians lack the courage to do that, so I'm merely voicing my opinion on what is presently going on.

Again, they are leeches on the public's taxation by us subsidizing their education through HS. Fact.

Again, I don't think their illegality should be rewarded by granting them in-state tuition or slightly higher in-state tuition. They should be forced to pay out-of-state (or not allowed into college at all, you know, since they are illegal). That's an opinion.

My acknowledging the fact that they are leeches and also wanting them to at least pay out-of-state tuition aren't contradictory at all.

There is plenty of hypocrisy in your views, like i said, you denial is not my problem. And the fact that you lump all illegals into one group, shows how ignorant you are on this topic.

The young adults and teens that this policy is aimed at are not just a bunch of Mexicans hanging outside Home Depot. The kids this policy is aimed at, you wouldn't even know they were illegal. It'd be like taking your teenage daughter, throwing her into Juarez Mexico and seeing what happens.

That's why this policy and Dream act get pushed so hard. Because unlike your ignorant ass, other people CAN Differentiate the two.

I've had this discussion with you and Vail before and have no desire to have it again.

Donger
06-15-2012, 12:06 PM
There is plenty of hypocrisy in your views, like i said, you denial is not my problem. And the fact that you lump all illegals into one group, shows how ignorant you are on this topic.

The young adults and teens that this policy is aimed at are not just a bunch of Mexicans hanging outside Home Depot. The kids this policy is aimed at, you wouldn't even know they were illegal. It'd be like taking your teenage daughter, throwing her into Juarez Mexico and seeing what happens.

That's why this policy and Dream act get pushed so hard. Because unlike your ignorant ass, other people CAN Differentiate the two.

I've had this discussion with you and Vail before and have no desire to have it again.

I'm aware that this "deferred action" is aimed specifically at those for whom you pine. That is why I said that the immediate deportation of the parents should be the price for this action.

I just find it amazing that you apparently don't have any issue with the parents who broke the law in creating these situations to begin with. Or do you?

Detoxing
06-15-2012, 12:13 PM
I'm aware that this "deferred action" is aimed specifically at those for whom you pine. That is why I said that the immediate deportation of the parents should be the price for this action.

I just find it amazing that you apparently don't have any issue with the parents who broke the law in creating these situations to begin with. Or do you?

I do have an issue with them. I do not advocate the parents actions, nor do i argue on their behalf.

When it comes to immigration policy, i am not here for them. I am here for the kids who are essentially American, just w/o the SSN.

Donger
06-15-2012, 12:24 PM
I do have an issue with them. I do not advocate the parents actions, nor do i argue on their behalf.

When it comes to immigration policy, i am not here for them. I am here for the kids who are essentially American, just w/o the SSN.

And what would you do with the parents? When these kids apply for this form of amnesty, that is obviously an acknowledgement that the parents are also illegals.

Would you support the parents being deported as the price of this amnesty?

mlyonsd
06-15-2012, 12:49 PM
Obama is absolutely shameless. I mean laughable shameless.

patteeu
06-15-2012, 12:59 PM
I love it. This is exactly what i'e been asking for. A freaking chance to allow good, young students to work legally.

Oh, and please proceed to bitch and moan. Republican tears are yummy.

I think it's probably a good thing, but it's an absolute disgrace that we haven't, largely because of democrat resistance, secured our southern border as a precondition for moves like this to deal with the illegals who are already here.

Detoxing
06-15-2012, 01:05 PM
I think it's probably a good thing, but it's an absolute disgracetad haven't, largely because of democrat resistance, secured our southern border as a precondition for moves like this to deal with the illegals who are already here.

I agree.

cosmo20002
06-15-2012, 01:06 PM
I think it's probably a good thing, but it's an absolute disgracetad haven't, largely because of democrat resistance, secured our southern border as a precondition for moves like this to deal with the illegals who are already here.

Does "secure the border" mean a fence/big wall/barrier? Some righties think a fence to keep illegals out is not worth having a fence that also serves to keep citizens in. When they come to round you up to take away your guns and gold, you'll be trapped.

Detoxing
06-15-2012, 01:06 PM
And what would you do with the parents? When these kids apply for this form of amnesty, that is obviously an acknowledgement that the parents are also illegals.

Would you support the parents being deported as the price of this amnesty?

No i wouldn't support that. No one is going to turn their parents in for a workers permit. Would you turn your parents in for a job?

Donger
06-15-2012, 01:08 PM
No i wouldn't support that. No one is going to turn their parents in for a workers permit. Would you turn your parents in for a job?

You are missing my point. By applying for this amnesty, the child is telling the US government that his/her parents are illegal. What do you think the US government should do, if anything, to the parents?

Detoxing
06-15-2012, 01:12 PM
You are missing my point. By applying for this amnesty, the child is telling the US government that his/her parents are illegal. What do you think the US government should do, if anything, to the parents?

Well they're not going to come knocking at everyone's door, if that's what you're getting at. While i don't think they should be here, I dont think rounding people up Nazi style is the way to go either.

Donger
06-15-2012, 01:19 PM
Well they're not going to come knocking at everyone's door, if that's what you're getting at. While i don't think they should be here, I dont think rounding people up Nazi style is the way to go either.

I see. You don't think the immigration law should be enforced. That's fine, but don't attempt to state that you don't care about the parents ever again.

Because, that's hypocrisy.

Detoxing
06-15-2012, 01:24 PM
I see. You don't think the immigration law should be enforced. That's fine, but don't attempt to state that you don't care about the parents ever again.

Because, that's hypocrisy.

Haha hardly. I do think it should be enforced, i just dont think we should go down the same path again like we did with the Japs. Nice try though.

Donger
06-15-2012, 01:28 PM
Haha hardly. I do think it should be enforced, i just dont think we should go down the same path again like we did with the Japs. Nice try though.

And how should it be enforced, then?

I'm not sure how you reached the conclusion that this would be like the NAZIs rounding up Jews or the internment of Japanese Americans. Those people hadn't done anything wrong or broken any laws. So, I'd suggest not attempting to link them. It makes you look foolish and desperate.

patteeu
06-15-2012, 01:29 PM
Does "secure the border" mean a fence/big wall/barrier? Some righties think a fence to keep illegals out is not worth having a fence that also serves to keep citizens in. When they come to round you up to take away your guns and gold, you'll be trapped.

"Secure the border" means take whatever measures are necessary to prevent illegal immigration of any significant magnitude. If that includes a fence or a wall or armed border guards or drones, fine. I'm not worried about being rounded up or trapped.

patteeu
06-15-2012, 01:33 PM
"Secure the border" means take whatever measures are necessary to prevent illegal immigration of any significant magnitude. If that includes a fence or a wall or armed border guards or drones, fine. I'm not worried about being rounded up or trapped.

I'm also sympathetic to people who want to come here, work hard and establish themselves as Americans so I'd like to see our immigration laws revamped to allow more of those kinds of people in and fewer deadbeats and fewer people who believe clinging to their old ways and resisting assimilation is a virtue.

Detoxing
06-15-2012, 01:34 PM
And how should it be enforced, then?

I'm not sure how you reached the conclusion that this would be like the NAZIs rounding up Jews or the internment of Japanese Americans. Those people hadn't done anything wrong or broken any laws. So, I'd suggest not attempting to link them. It makes you look foolish and desperate.

Same way we've been enforcing it, because according to reports, it's been working. Securing the border and keeping them out is a far bigger issue then just getting them out. With out securing the border, rounding up 13 Million + people (which is comparable, considering we're rounding up 13 Million freaking people for a mass exodus) would not only be incredibly costly and difficult, but rather pointless if they just walk right back in.

Donger
06-15-2012, 01:36 PM
Same way we've been enforcing it, because according to reports, it's been working. Securing the border and keeping them out is a far bigger issue then just getting them out. With out securing the border, rounding up 13 Million + people (which is comparable, considering we're rounding up 13 Million people) would not only be incredibly costly and difficult, but rather pointless if they just walk right back in.

I'm all for securing the border, too. I just find it interesting that you wouldn't take this prime opportunity to actually enforce the law and deport the parents, while also affording the child (who hasn't done anything wrong) a legal future.

Detoxing
06-15-2012, 01:36 PM
I guess what i am getting at is that there are far more Humane ways of deporting than going door to door and stealing people from their homes and work places.

Detoxing
06-15-2012, 01:36 PM
I'm all for securing the border, too. I just find it interesting that you wouldn't take this prime opportunity to actually enforce the law and deport the parents, while also affording the child (who hasn't done anything wrong) a legal future.

What makes it a "Prime" Opportunity?

Frankie
06-15-2012, 01:38 PM
Best way to get rid of leeches is to pour salt on them.

Depends on one's definition of a leech. Some people have other ways of making leeches go away.

Donger
06-15-2012, 01:38 PM
I guess what i am getting at is that there are far more Humane ways of deporting than going door to door and stealing people from their homes and work places.

Stealing people from their homes?

They broke the law by immigrating illegally. The supposed punishment for that is deportation.

I suppose you think that when the police act on a warrant for the violation of some other law, they are also "stealing people from their homes"?

Donger
06-15-2012, 01:39 PM
What makes it a "Prime" Opportunity?

I already told you. By applying for this amnesty, the child is openly identifying his/her parents as illegals.

chiefzilla1501
06-15-2012, 01:40 PM
There is plenty of hypocrisy in your views, like i said, you denial is not my problem. And the fact that you lump all illegals into one group, shows how ignorant you are on this topic.

The young adults and teens that this policy is aimed at are not just a bunch of Mexicans hanging outside Home Depot. The kids this policy is aimed at, you wouldn't even know they were illegal. It'd be like taking your teenage daughter, throwing her into Juarez Mexico and seeing what happens.

That's why this policy and Dream act get pushed so hard. Because unlike your ignorant ass, other people CAN Differentiate the two.

I've had this discussion with you and Vail before and have no desire to have it again.

I hate the DREAM ACT because I resent the ridiculous notion that living in this country is a right, as opposed to a privilege you earn.

Good for these kids for being good citizens. But living here for 16 years in good standing doesn't earn you the privilege to be allowed to live here legally. As a condition, they should at least be responsible for paying back some of the thousands of dollars in back taxes they mooched off of all of us to fund their education. Or what about the cost of health care to treat illegal immigrants who don't have health insurance?

The reason it's called the DREAM ACT is it's everybody's dream to get the benefits of America for free.

Donger
06-15-2012, 01:40 PM
Depends on one's definition of a leech. Some people have other ways of making leeches go away.

Frankie's so tough, he'd eat the boogers out of his Mom's nose.

patteeu
06-15-2012, 01:44 PM
Depends on one's definition of a leech. Some people have other ways of making leeches go away.

Let me guess. Gas chambers?

Detoxing
06-15-2012, 01:47 PM
I hate the DREAM ACT because I resent the ridiculous notion that living in this country is a right, as opposed to a privilege you earn.

Good for these kids for being good citizens. But living here for 16 years in good standing doesn't earn you the privilege to be allowed to live here legally. As a condition, they should at least be responsible for paying back some of the thousands of dollars in back taxes they mooched off of all of us to fund their education. Or what about the cost of health care to treat illegal immigrants who don't have health insurance?

The reason it's called the DREAM ACT is it's everybody's dream to get the benefits of America for free.

ROFL

Dude.....

The whole damn point of the DREAM act is that it's earned.

I guess in your world, you'd rather have these kids living here un educated, adding an even larger burden to society.

Wasting your tax dollars.....please....hahaha.

You ask all those AMERICAN prison inmates to pay back all "your" tax dollars? How about all of those low-life American drop outs? Or all the Americans who grow up to suck the government teet?

They have to pay it all back too?

If you're going to make a point, at least be realistic.

Donger
06-15-2012, 01:47 PM
Let me guess. Gas chambers?

I think Frankie's desperate to tell us something.

Detoxing
06-15-2012, 01:48 PM
I already told you. By applying for this amnesty, the child is openly identifying his/her parents as illegals.

You are assuming that you could actually identify the parent, of course. Which won't be the case.

chiefzilla1501
06-15-2012, 01:50 PM
Also, for those who support the DREAM ACT....

What about the thousands upon thousands of brilliant foreign college and graduate students we turn away every year because there aren't enough spots in line for them? The difference is, they came to this country and paid tuition for the right to their education, and didn't put significant drain on our public resources.

I get that deportation is expensive and that we need these guys to start paying taxes more than anything. So I'm not opposed to some level of amnesty. But JFC....

Donger
06-15-2012, 01:56 PM
You are assuming that you could actually identify the parent, of course. Which won't be the case.

Why? Are the parent(s) invisible?

chiefzilla1501
06-15-2012, 01:59 PM
ROFL

Dude.....

The whole damn point of the DREAM act is that it's earned.

I guess in your world, you'd rather have these kids living here un educated, adding an even larger burden to society.

Wasting your tax dollars.....please....hahaha.

You ask all those AMERICAN prison inmates to pay back all "your" tax dollars? How about all of those low-life American drop outs? Or all the Americans who grow up to suck the government teet?

They have to pay it all back too?

If you're going to make a point, at least be realistic.

No. In my world, if you're going to get an education, you should pay the tax dollars or tuition to get it instead of leeching off of other taxpayers. Illegal immigrants send their kids to school with the full understanding that they are stealing.

The low-life American drop outs paid for the education that they chose not to use. Most american prison inmates don't choose to go to jail -- you can't blame them for not paying for a service they really don't want to be getting.

When an illegal immigrant sends their kids to school, they do so with the full understanding that they are getting a paid POSITIVE BENEFIT at the expense of other taxpayers.

Detoxing
06-15-2012, 02:03 PM
No. In my world, if you're going to get an education, you should pay the tax dollars or tuition to get it instead of leeching off of other taxpayers. Illegal immigrants send their kids to school with the full understanding that they are stealing.

The low-life American drop outs paid for the education that they chose not to use. Most american prison inmates don't choose to go to jail -- you can't blame them for not paying for a service they really don't want to be getting.

When an illegal immigrant sends their kids to school, they do so with the full understanding that they are getting a paid POSITIVE BENEFIT at the expense of other taxpayers.

:facepalm:

Detoxing
06-15-2012, 02:05 PM
Why? Are the parent(s) invisible?

With out any identification or SSN, yeah, they kinda are. You need to know where to look first, and you think these kids are just going to snitch their parents out. It's not going to work like that.

You make it seem so easy.

Like I said, there are other ways to detain illegal immigrants. Going door to door to round up 13 million people isn't realistic, and rather pointless to debate about.

Donger
06-15-2012, 02:10 PM
With out any identification or SSN, yeah, they kinda are. You need to know where to look first, and you think these kids are just going to snitch their parents out. It's not going to work like that.

You make it seem so easy.

Like I said, there are other ways to detain illegal immigrants. Going door to door to round up 13 million people isn't realistic, and rather pointless to debate about.

Awesome. We give these kids a massive break in the form of amnesty and there's no pain involved for them or their scofflaw parents.

Sounds like a great thing to do.

Detoxing
06-15-2012, 02:12 PM
Awesome. We give these kids a massive break in the form of amnesty and there's no pain involved for them or their scofflaw parents.

Sounds like a great thing to do.

Lol.....you wanna cause people pain....that's great dude. Lovely model to build your political views on. Gotta punish everyone, ya know....even those who did not choose to be here.....

Donger
06-15-2012, 02:18 PM
Lol.....you wanna cause people pain....that's great dude. Lovely model to build your political views on. Gotta punish everyone, ya know....even those who did not choose to be here.....

If you equate enforcing law with inflicting pain, sure, I do.

You just seem to want to do nothing about the parents who actually committed the illegal act. You claim you do, but you really don't.

Detoxing
06-15-2012, 02:35 PM
If you equate enforcing law with inflicting pain, sure, I do.

You just seem to want to do nothing about the parents who actually committed the illegal act. You claim you do, but you really don't.

you're the one who said "Pain" not me.

And yes I do. Just because i don't agree that we should round them up like a herd of cattle, doesn't mean i don't think the laws should be enforced.

I don't any other way to explain that gathering up 13 Million people is the dumbest idea i've ever heard.....

Donger
06-15-2012, 02:42 PM
you're the one who said "Pain" not me.

And yes I do. Just because i don't agree that we should round them up like a herd of cattle, doesn't mean i don't think the laws should be enforced.

I don't any other way to explain that gathering up 13 Million people is the dumbest idea i've ever heard.....

I did. I think there should be some pain involved in being granted amnesty. It was painful for my family to become citizens, and we didn't break any laws doing it.

So, again, what is your suggestion to get rid of the parents?

Detoxing
06-15-2012, 02:43 PM
I did. I think there should be some pain involved in being granted amnesty. It was painful for my family to become citizens, and we didn't break any laws doing it.

So, again, what is your suggestion to get rid of the parents?

Painful for your family? ROFL What pain exactly did they go through?

Donger
06-15-2012, 02:47 PM
Painful for your family? ROFL What pain exactly did they go through?

We had to go back to our country of origin for two weeks. Sat it the US embassy during that time. Rather invasive medical exams. That sort of thing.

RNR
06-15-2012, 02:51 PM
I did. I think there should be some pain involved in being granted amnesty. It was painful for my family to become citizens, and we didn't break any laws doing it.

So, again, what is your suggestion to get rid of the parents?

Both parties want these people here. I get chuckle out of the (we cannot round them all up) bullshit. Just put laws in place that punish employers for giving them jobs. Set up those penalties to the point a company risks going out of business, and the owner risks time in jail. Take away the jobs, and deport those who are caught. This problem will become very manageable~

Detoxing
06-15-2012, 02:53 PM
We had to go back to our country of origin for two weeks. Sat it the US embassy during that time. Rather invasive medical exams. That sort of thing.

I see. Well that sucks, Donger. It's a shame. Maybe, just maybe, as AustinChief said, that our procedure should be a bit more streamlined and not require you to leave the country.

You seem pretty bent on everyone having to go through what you went through, when that shouldn't be the case.

Going to Europe, especially when your family can afford it, isn't quite the same as going back to Somalia, Korea or Juarez Mexico.

Detoxing
06-15-2012, 02:54 PM
Both parties want these people here. I get chuckle out of the (we cannot round them all up) bullshit. Just put laws in place that punish employers for giving them jobs. Set up those penalties to the point a company risks going out of business, and the owner risks time in jail. Take away the jobs, and deport those who are caught. This problem will become very manageable~

Exactly. Which, to a lesser degree is what they are already doing. I would FULLY support everything you just said.

And the issue isn't really how do we get them out, because we do a decent job of that already. The issue is, how do we KEEP them out.

Donger
06-15-2012, 02:59 PM
Both parties want these people here. I get chuckle out of the (we cannot round them all up) bullshit. Just put laws in place that punish employers for giving them jobs. Set up those penalties to the point a company risks going out of business, and the owner risks time in jail. Take away the jobs, and deport those who are caught. This problem will become very manageable~

Absolutely. If welcome much harsher punishment for the companies which employ these people.

Detoxing
06-15-2012, 03:00 PM
Also, id like to add, at least in California, Apartment rental agencies don't require a SSN to rent.

Making it state law that you have a SSN for renting a home would go a long ways in helping people "choose" to return to their country of origin.

Donger
06-15-2012, 03:00 PM
I see. Well that sucks, Donger. It's a shame. Maybe, just maybe, as AustinChief said, that our procedure should be a bit more streamlined and not require you to leave the country.

You seem pretty bent on everyone having to go through what you went through, when that shouldn't be the case.

Going to Europe, especially when your family can afford it, isn't quite the same as going back to Somalia, Korea or Juarez Mexico.

It was something we were willing to do in order to become Americans. It shouldn't be easy.

Donger
06-15-2012, 03:02 PM
Also, id like to add, at least in California, Apartment rental agencies don't require a SSN to rent.

Making it state law that you have a SSN for renting a home would go a long ways in helping people "choose" to return to their country of origin.

I agree with that, too. Make it as difficult as possible.

We had a leak in our basement recently and had some companies come out to give us bids on replacing the carpet. I told each one that I wouldn't accept their bid if they utilized illegal labor. One guy actually called me a racist.

RNR
06-15-2012, 03:05 PM
Exactly. Which, to a lesser degree is what they are already doing. I would FULLY support everything you just said.

And the issue isn't really how do we get them out, because we do a decent job of that already. The issue is, how do we KEEP them out.

No jobs, no illegals, pretty simple really. Also real boarder enforcement. But let's not kid ourselves, these things would already be in place, if both parties did not want them here~

Detoxing
06-15-2012, 03:05 PM
It was something we were willing to do in order to become Americans. It shouldn't be easy.

But please understand that that isn't an option for everyone. Like the people i so vocally defend, for example.

When it comes to Illegal Immigration, AustinChief Nailed it, and I can't recall something that I DIDN't agree with him on.

Otter
06-15-2012, 03:08 PM
Barry adds potentially 1 million more workers to the worst economy in decades. Sends out the message "bring your kids here, they'll get amnesty eventually" all along without doing a thing to address the holes causing this problem while by passing congress and voters.

If Bum Fuck barry was anymore of a piece of shit he'd have flys buzzing around him. This and the health care force feeding shows bum fuck doesen't care what Americans want, it's all about what he wants and his vision of what America should be.

Donger
06-15-2012, 03:09 PM
But please understand that that isn't an option for everyone. Like the people i so vocally defend, for example.

When it comes to Illegal Immigration, AustinChief Nailed it, and I can't recall something that I DIDN't agree with him on.

Do we really want a bunch of people immigrating here, legally or not, who are dirt poor? They managed to find the funds to get here, mind you.

RNR
06-15-2012, 03:11 PM
I agree with that, too. Make it as difficult as possible.

We had a leak in our basement recently and had some companies come out to give us bids on replacing the carpet. I told each one that I wouldn't accept their bid if they utilized illegal labor. One guy actually called me a racist.

Lol I would have told him to kiss my ass, and to get the fuck out of my house. Rather it was by his own choice or not he would have not been there long~

Donger
06-15-2012, 03:17 PM
Lol I would have told him to kiss my ass, and to get the **** out of my house. Rather it was by his own choice or not he would have not been there long~

I pretty much did the same thing, without words.

mikey23545
06-15-2012, 03:18 PM
WASHINGTON — The Obama administration will stop deporting and begin granting work permits to younger illegal immigrants who came to the U.S. as children and have since led law-abiding lives.

The policy change, described to The Associated Press by two senior administration officials, will affect as many as 800,000 immigrants who have lived in fear of deportation. It also bypasses Congress and partially achieves the goals of the so-called DREAM Act, a long-sought but never enacted plan to establish a path toward citizenship for young people who came to the United States illegally but who have attended college or served in the military.




"Congress?!?!?!...I don't need no stinkin' Congress!" - Dear Leader Hussein

cosmo20002
06-15-2012, 03:19 PM
"Congress?!?!?!...I don't need no stinkin' Congress!" - Dear Leader Hussein

Not for this, no.

mikey23545
06-15-2012, 03:21 PM
"Separation of powers?!?!?!....I'll show you separation of powers!

I'll separate Congress and the Judicial branch from their powers! Now that's separation of powers!"

RNR
06-15-2012, 03:23 PM
I pretty much did the same thing, without words.

Good for you. Free speech is great, but when standing in my house, speech like that has a price tag~

mikey23545
06-15-2012, 03:23 PM
Not for this, no.

You really believe you're going to have a chair right next to Dear Leader's in the White House, don't you Orange?

cosmo20002
06-15-2012, 03:26 PM
You really believe you're going to have a chair right next to Dear Leader's in the White House, don't you Orange?

Ok, can someone tell me about this Orange? Is it a person? Some lingo I'm not aware of?

Donger
06-15-2012, 03:26 PM
You really believe you're going to have a chair right next to Dear Leader's in the White House, don't you Orange?

There's no way this guy is orange.

RNR
06-15-2012, 03:35 PM
You really believe you're going to have a chair right next to Dear Leader's in the White House, don't you Orange?

This clown does nothing but lambs bah bah. If it is orange, that is disappointing. It was very rare that I would agree with orange, but at least orange would bring something to the table. If Cosmo is orange than not only is he full of shit, but lazy also~

patteeu
06-15-2012, 04:01 PM
There's no way this guy is orange.

I agree.

patteeu
06-15-2012, 04:04 PM
Ok, can someone tell me about this Orange? Is it a person? Some lingo I'm not aware of?

He was a longtime board member, bronco fan, Hillary-supporting liberal turned Obama defender, dedicated huffington post reader, and copious link provider. He took some flak for his huffpo links, but he was a smart guy so you should be flattered that someone mistook you for him. He recently left after a dust up with the board owner (AustinChief) and some resulting mod abuse.

cosmo20002
06-15-2012, 04:09 PM
This clown does nothing but lambs bah bah. If it is orange, that is disappointing. It was very rare that I would agree with orange, but at least orange would bring something to the table. If Cosmo is orange than not only is he full of shit, but lazy also~

Did you change his quotes, too?

RNR
06-15-2012, 04:11 PM
lambs BAH BAH

what?

KCTitus
06-15-2012, 04:27 PM
Completely extra-constitutional...Im surprised that the left doesnt have a problem with this. What if a right wing president were to decide to stop enforcing laws on the books? The screaming would be endless...

This should not be allowed to stand.

mlyonsd
06-15-2012, 04:36 PM
Completely extra-constitutional...Im surprised that the left doesnt have a problem with this. What if a right wing president were to decide to stop enforcing laws on the books? The screaming would be endless...

This should not be allowed to stand.Absolutely.

KCTitus
06-15-2012, 04:41 PM
I think this is the beginning of a Constitutional crisis...the balance of powers has been infringed on this. Even if this were the right, this still should be a problem. Laws, rules are made by the Congress. This is a soft tyranny. It's not healthy.

stevieray
06-15-2012, 05:18 PM
http://img839.imageshack.us/img839/163/cryingreleasesstresshor.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/839/cryingreleasesstresshor.jpg/)

...you have blonde hair?

stevieray
06-15-2012, 05:20 PM
Completely extra-constitutional...Im surprised that the left doesnt have a problem with this. What if a right wing president were to decide to stop enforcing laws on the books? The screaming would be endless...

This should not be allowed to stand.

agreed, but you know the "rules".

...like now,when soldiers die in combat, it isn't brought up on an almost daily basis.

KCTitus
06-15-2012, 05:25 PM
So, now, Obama has decided who can be legal citizens...I guess I'm left to wonder, is it up to Obama to declare who is legal? Would I, a strident opponent, to his political beliefs, be considered legal? Is he going to begin to declare who is a valid citizen and who isnt? Where does this stop?

mlyonsd
06-15-2012, 05:29 PM
I just heard a clip of Obama today claiming this isn't "amnesty".

WTF is it if it isn't amnesty?

Donger
06-15-2012, 05:39 PM
I just heard a clip of Obama today claiming this isn't "amnesty".

WTF is it if it isn't amnesty?

They are calling it "deferred action."

mnchiefsguy
06-15-2012, 05:40 PM
Both parties want these people here. I get chuckle out of the (we cannot round them all up) bullshit. Just put laws in place that punish employers for giving them jobs. Set up those penalties to the point a company risks going out of business, and the owner risks time in jail. Take away the jobs, and deport those who are caught. This problem will become very manageable~

Bingo...this hits the nail on the head. The Repubs are under pressure from business to turn the other way on illegals, because business wants its cheap labor, and the Dems want as many in the country as they can because they see them as free votes at the ballot box.

Both parties are responsible for the mess. Enforce some real penalties on business for hiring illegals, and business will stop doing it. Cut off illegals from social programs. If illegals cannot suck from the tit of government, or get a job, then they will leave of their own accord.

KCTitus
06-15-2012, 05:44 PM
Bingo...this hits the nail on the head. The Repubs are under pressure from business to turn the other way on illegals, because business wants its cheap labor, and the Dems want as many in the country as they can because they see them as free votes at the ballot box.

Both parties are responsible for the mess. Enforce some real penalties on business for hiring illegals, and business will stop doing it. Cut off illegals from social programs. If illegals cannot suck from the tit of government, or get a job, then they will leave of their own accord.

True, Bush and McCain did try to push amnesty back in 2007. If I recall, the people of America burned up the phones so bad that the congress did not pass the dream act. To date, the dream act has not been passed by either the Senate or the House.

So, I would disagree at this point that both parties want it them here. Only one person has taken unilateral action to allow them work permits.

AustinChief
06-15-2012, 06:16 PM
This is exactly the kind of lawless bullshit that creates far more problems than it solves. I am all for getting these people legal status... but not through some junk executive order that does NOTHING to address the long term issues.

NO GOOD will come from this.... the system is broken and all this does is distract people from the real issues by putting a temporary band aid on things.

Disgusting pandering at its worst and I hope people can see through it.

patteeu
06-15-2012, 10:28 PM
Even stalwart defender of Presidential power, John Yoo (http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/303038/executive-overreach-john-yoo#), calls this an abuse of power:

He is laying claim to presidential power that goes even beyond that claimed by the Bush administration, in which I served. There is a world of difference in refusing to enforce laws that violate the Constitution (Bush) and refusing to enforce laws because of disagreements over policy (Obama).

...

Imagine the precedent this claim [that the President can choose not to enforce laws simply because of a disagreement on policy] would create. President Romney could lower tax rates simply by saying he will not use enforcement resources to prosecute anyone who refuses to pay capital-gains tax.

I wonder if the critics of Bush signing statements will go apoplectic over this?

cosmo20002
06-15-2012, 11:18 PM
Even stalwart defender of Presidential power, John Yoo (http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/303038/executive-overreach-john-yoo#), calls this an abuse of power:




Stalwart defender of Pres power when his party holds the office.

This isn't even a presidential power issue. DHS has discretion on granting work permits and prioritizing resources for deportation proceedings.

I realize it is the Rs duty (and only real function the last 3 years) to claim unconstitutional! but this just isn't even close.

patteeu
06-15-2012, 11:19 PM
Stalwart defender of Pres power when his party holds the office.

This isn't even a presidential power issue. DHS has discretion on granting work permits and prioritizing resources for deportation proceedings.

I realize it is the Rs duty (and only real function the last 3 years) to claim unconstitutional! but this just isn't even close.

Yoo addresses that discretionary power of the Presidency in his article.

AustinChief
06-15-2012, 11:23 PM
Stalwart defender of Pres power when his party holds the office.

This isn't even a presidential power issue. DHS has discretion on granting work permits and prioritizing resources for deportation proceedings.

I realize it is the Rs duty (and only real function the last 3 years) to claim unconstitutional! but this just isn't even close.

So, you think this move was a good one? You think it is helpful and not just a purely political move that isn't short sighted at all? You think this does a damn bit of good towards fixing immigration problems?

Dick Bull
06-15-2012, 11:29 PM
So, you think this move was a good one? You think it is helpful and not just a purely political move that isn't short sighted at all? You think this does a damn bit of good towards fixing immigration problems?

Does this move us in the right direction? Yes. Is there any chance of him being able to do anything else with the Congress? No.

Was the timing hugely political? Hell yes.

cosmo20002
06-15-2012, 11:35 PM
So, you think this move was a good one? You think it is helpful and not just a purely political move that isn't short sighted at all? You think this does a damn bit of good towards fixing immigration problems?

You will have to define good. I think it is a little silly to constantly label things as "political moves." They are politicians. It also implies there is no legitimate reason for doing something other than making the other side look bad.

In this case, I don't think that not pursuing deportation on people who are kids or were fairly recently brought here as kids (along with the other criteria) is bad idea at all. Fairness and common decency says you don't punish people for things that aren't their fault. A kid brought here by someone else didn't do anything wrong.

I don't know whether it will help fix immigration problems, but that doesn't mean that it isn't the right thing to do.

cosmo20002
06-15-2012, 11:41 PM
Is there any chance of him being able to do anything else with the Congress? No.



They will probably now refuse to cooperate on formerly routine acts such as paying our bills/debt ceiling, make record use of filibusters and start voting down legislation that they used to support.

Dick Bull
06-16-2012, 12:00 AM
They will probably now refuse to cooperate on formerly routine acts such as paying our bills/debt ceiling, make record use of filibusters and start voting down legislation that they used to support.

Right? Business as usual.

tredadda
06-16-2012, 12:08 AM
Right? Business as usual.

The sad part of all this is the thought of raising the debt ceiling being viewed as "routine". Wow. This should not just be a "routine" thing, but something that needs to be addressed.

Dick Bull
06-16-2012, 12:13 AM
The sad part of all this is the thought of raising the debt ceiling being viewed as "routine". Wow. This should not just be a "routine" thing, but something that needs to be addressed.

I agree, however this this has been routine at least since the Reagan years, but suddenly it is an outrage.

AustinChief
06-16-2012, 12:28 AM
Does this move us in the right direction? Yes. Is there any chance of him being able to do anything else with the Congress? No.

Was the timing hugely political? Hell yes.

I will argue that NO it does NOT move us in the right direction. I think band aid temporary solutions like this just push back the day when we address the REAL issues. It's a temporary half step forward and 5 steps back in the long term. It sets a horrendous precedent.

AustinChief
06-16-2012, 12:32 AM
You will have to define good. I think it is a little silly to constantly label things as "political moves." They are politicians. It also implies there is no legitimate reason for doing something other than making the other side look bad.

In this case, I don't think that not pursuing deportation on people who are kids or were fairly recently brought here as kids (along with the other criteria) is bad idea at all. Fairness and common decency says you don't punish people for things that aren't their fault. A kid brought here by someone else didn't do anything wrong.

I don't know whether it will help fix immigration problems, but that doesn't mean that it isn't the right thing to do.

Again, you (like Obama) aren't looking at the big picture. This HURTS immigration reform by putting a band aid on one of the many injustices. Is it fair if the world ends in November... sure. Otherwise, it is extremely UNFAIR to the people on both sides of the issue(and the border) in the long term.

And yes they are politicians so everything is a "political move".. but this is a move made solely out of political expediency that hurts everyone in the long run.

It's selfish, short sighted and one of the most ethically despicable things Obama has done in office.

tredadda
06-16-2012, 12:46 AM
I agree, however this this has been routine at least since the Reagan years, but suddenly it is an outrage.

When should it become an outrage?

cosmo20002
06-16-2012, 12:57 AM
The sad part of all this is the thought of raising the debt ceiling being viewed as "routine". Wow. This should not just be a "routine" thing, but something that needs to be addressed.

There's a good reason it has been routine. It is not an approval of new spending. It is paying bills that have already been accrued. Period, end of story. That's the whole thing, and that's why it has always been routine.

The right always likes to equate government to running a household, so the position Rs have taken since all the way back in 2009 would be like you refusing to pay the Visa bill for past purchases (much of which were purchases YOU made) unless your wife promises not to make future purchases. Meanwhile, interest still accrues. And, your credit is damaged by not paying, so your interest rate will now go up.

Dick Bull
06-16-2012, 01:18 AM
When should it become an outrage?

Let me ask you this: were you as pissed off about this 4 years ago?

Dick Bull
06-16-2012, 01:20 AM
Again, you (like Obama) aren't looking at the big picture. This HURTS immigration reform by putting a band aid on one of the many injustices. Is it fair if the world ends in November... sure. Otherwise, it is extremely UNFAIR to the people on both sides of the issue(and the border) in the long term.

And yes they are politicians so everything is a "political move".. but this is a move made solely out of political expediency that hurts everyone in the long run.

It's selfish, short sighted and one of the most ethically despicable things Obama has done in office.

All credibility was lost with you the second that you said if the world ends in November. It's ending in December, duh.

cdcox
06-16-2012, 01:35 AM
Again, you (like Obama) aren't looking at the big picture. This HURTS immigration reform by putting a band aid on one of the many injustices. Is it fair if the world ends in November... sure. Otherwise, it is extremely UNFAIR to the people on both sides of the issue(and the border) in the long term.

And yes they are politicians so everything is a "political move".. but this is a move made solely out of political expediency that hurts everyone in the long run.

It's selfish, short sighted and one of the most ethically despicable things Obama has done in office.

Like it or not, this is how social reform works in America. It always begins with a wedge. We have never made progress in "expanding the We" in one fell swoop. I equate it to Clinton's "don't ask, don't tell". No one on either side was happy with that resolution, but without that flawed policy, the openness we have today would not have happened. If you don't start somewhere, you don't get anywhere.

The fact is that most people are ruled by their fears. Once the wedge allows people to see that a policy isn't going to cause their own world to collapse, the majority of Americans are more than willing to accommodate the needs of people different than themselves.

AustinChief
06-16-2012, 01:37 AM
All credibility was lost with you the second that you said if the world ends in November. It's ending in December, duh.

Well to be honest I should have said January of next year... since the next Prez obviously doesn't take office in Nov. And I forgot about the world ending... guess I am on board with this then!

AustinChief
06-16-2012, 01:47 AM
Like it or not, this is how social reform works in America. It always begins with a wedge. We have never made progress in "expanding the We" in one fell swoop. I equate it to Clinton's "don't ask, don't tell". No one on either side was happy with that resolution, but without that flawed policy, the openness we have today would not have happened. If you don't start somewhere, you don't get anywhere.

The fact is that most people are ruled by their fears. Once the wedge allows people to see that a policy isn't going to cause their own world to collapse, the majority of Americans are more than willing to accommodate the needs of people different than themselves.

I can see what you are saying... but not in this case. It has been done before and it sure as hell didn't help then. Am I the only one who remembers 1986? Hell at least that was an ACTUAL LAW passed by Congress. It didn't help things at all and MANY MANY MANY people believe it set us back by giving another excuse to not properly address the issue. I follow this issue closely and I can't point to the 1986 amnesty law as something that changed ANYONE'S attitudes or opinions on this issue.

Nope, this is pure political pandering that people who truly care about this issue should be outraged by.

This isn't a partisan issue for me.. I blame ALL SIDES for the crap fest that exists today in this arena.

Comrade Crapski
06-16-2012, 05:19 AM
Obama is a scumbag.

patteeu
06-16-2012, 07:07 AM
Like it or not, this is how social reform works in America. It always begins with a wedge. We have never made progress in "expanding the We" in one fell swoop. I equate it to Clinton's "don't ask, don't tell". No one on either side was happy with that resolution, but without that flawed policy, the openness we have today would not have happened. If you don't start somewhere, you don't get anywhere.

The fact is that most people are ruled by their fears. Once the wedge allows people to see that a policy isn't going to cause their own world to collapse, the majority of Americans are more than willing to accommodate the needs of people different than themselves.

What was the wedge that preceded granting the vote to women in one fell swoop?

chiefzilla1501
06-16-2012, 08:08 AM
You will have to define good. I think it is a little silly to constantly label things as "political moves." They are politicians. It also implies there is no legitimate reason for doing something other than making the other side look bad.

In this case, I don't think that not pursuing deportation on people who are kids or were fairly recently brought here as kids (along with the other criteria) is bad idea at all. Fairness and common decency says you don't punish people for things that aren't their fault. A kid brought here by someone else didn't do anything wrong.

I don't know whether it will help fix immigration problems, but that doesn't mean that it isn't the right thing to do.

With Obama, it shouldn't feel this blatantly political. It's one thing to campaign based on political motive. It's another thing to enact game-changing policy because you were trying to win over a vote.

And again, the fairness principal needs to extend to people who are doing things legitimately. Is it fair that a college or grad student who pays legitimate tuition and doesn't add societal strain gets booted the majority of the time because they can't get a green card? Is it fair that immigrants legitimately going through the process have to wait in line even longer because we're allowing those who don't wait into the country? Do you remember Tamba Hali's struggle to bring his parents from a war-torn country? And if you've ever been to grad school, you'll see absolutely brilliant people from foreign countries struggle to find an American job, because businesses can only offer work to a certain number of foreigners.

Where do you draw that line for fairness? Should a B student illegal immigrant get a path to citizenship because they behaved well over an A college student? If a family has a criminal father but an honor student kid, is it fair that that family gets to stay in America while a family in Liberia is desperately waiting for the waiting list to drop so those parents can join their son (and escape the horrors of living in their own country)? Should we ignore that for 12 years, illegal immigrants got about $100,000 in free education while legitimate taxpaying citizens had to pay for their own education PLUS play for the education of illegals?

This is why I disapprove of the policy. I'm not against amnesty per se. But I think it's ridiculous to suggest that it's fair that just because somebody behaves well, that means we should treat them like they're special.

Ace Gunner
06-16-2012, 08:35 AM
The funniest part of this thread is the fact that americans are afraid of losing an election to about 10 percent of the nation.

cdcox
06-16-2012, 09:07 AM
What was the wedge that preceded granting the vote to women in one fell swoop?

Women voted illegally in elections 50 years before the 19th amendment was "passed in one fell swoop".

The wedge also happened in local and state governments where suffrage was granted and people saw that women could vote without causing the world to end.

Cave Johnson
06-16-2012, 09:21 AM
Even stalwart defender of Presidential power, John Yoo (http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/303038/executive-overreach-john-yoo#), calls this an abuse of power:



I wonder if the critics of Bush signing statements will go apoplectic over this?

That's a clown source, bro.

chiefzilla1501
06-16-2012, 09:37 AM
Women voted illegally in elections 50 years before the 19th amendment was "passed in one fell swoop".

The wedge also happened in local and state governments where suffrage was granted and people saw that women could vote without causing the world to end.

The wedge should be started on the local and state level. Federal policy should not make these kinds of sweeping mandates at the expense of local autonomy.

This is a huge slap in the face to Arizona, a state that is actively trying to limit immigration for what they believe are legit purposes. Agree with Arizona or not, they should be allowed a chance to test that out and, if it fails, then it fails.

patteeu
06-16-2012, 09:39 AM
That's a clown source, bro.

You don't like him because he was such a stalwart defender of presidential power. So what do you think about Obama's imperial decree?

Cave Johnson
06-16-2012, 09:49 AM
You don't like him because he was such a stalwart defender of extrajudicial
torture.

FYP

tredadda
06-16-2012, 10:25 AM
Let me ask you this: were you as pissed off about this 4 years ago?

Yes, but you still did not answer my question.

patteeu
06-16-2012, 11:43 AM
FYP

No you didn't. You also didn't answer my question.

The_Grand_Illusion
06-16-2012, 02:11 PM
This is really pandering at its very worst. Too many in this liberal culture are taught to judge things with their feelings instead of what is truly right or wrong. Anything can be nuanced to suit their “feelings”.

The liberal elites can easily manipulate them by appealing to their feelings. This time it’s “for the children”. Never mind liberals on both sides of the aisle, by ignoring the problems for so long, are responsible for this mess. Adding more to the workforce when so many Americans are out of work is so wrong. Bypassing Congress, ignoring the Constitution, and ruling by decree is so wrong but the liberals feel good about it.

Their liberal feel good is all over this thread. This is one reason I call them corrupt and really very dangerous for our Republic. If they can be convinced this abuse of power is good because“it’s for the children”, and are BLIND TO THE ABUSE OF POWER, they can be convinced of anything that further erodes our freedoms.

TGI