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Micjones
06-18-2012, 08:09 PM
http://arrowheadaddict.com/files/2012/06/5709164-590x464.jpg?75c61e

If you are looking for one NFL player that is capable of a breakout season in 2012 then look no farther than Kansas City Chiefs linebacker Justin Houston.

The Chiefs drafted Houston in the third round out of Georgia and getting him there was a steal. Houston was projecting as a mid-first round pick before he tested positive for marijuana use at the NFL scouting combine. Teams backed away from a player stupid enough to smoke weed so close to such an important event but the Chiefs felt that Houston’s value was too great to pass on in round three. They also felt that, after talking with Houston, that there wouldn’t be any future trouble.

So far, KC’s investment is paying off big time.

Houston got off to a slow start last season (what Chiefs player didn’t) but by the end of the year he had forced his way into the starting lineup and soon he became an every-down player. In fact, Houston’s numbers and grades from Pro Football Focus indicated that he could be a monster in 2012. First, take a look at Houston’s overall grades from 2012.

Houston’s first four weeks were crap. After that he didn’t play as much and when he did he was average. Then, from Week 10 on, save a slip-up against the eventual AFC Champion Patriots, Houston was a beast. He finished the season with an overall grade of +6.8.

Yet there was a clear moment when Houston “got it” and it appeared to come around Week 10. We were tracking Houston’s progress here on AA and we had already noticed he had gone from bad to average and correctly predicted that he was about to turn the corner.*

*This is just one of the many reasons you should subscribe to premium stats at Pro Football Focus.

So what kind of season might Houston have in 2012? Chances are he could be even better than he was from Week 10 on of last season. But what if he was just equally as good? What would his numbers look like?

In 2011,Houston finished the year with six sacks, three QB hits, 13 QB hurries, three batted passes, 45 tackles and 32 stops.*

*The official NFL numbers credit Houston for a few more tackles. They also credit him with -.5 a sack. We’re using PFF numbers here because we believe them to be more accurate. PFF doesn’t give out 1/2 sacks. If two players get there at the same time, they both get credit for a sack.

His grades from PFF were as follows:

Overall: +6.8, Run D: +7.4, Pass Coverage: -7.6

If we take his numbers from Week 10 on, average them out and project them for an entire season, they look like this.

12 sacks

4 QB Hits

22 QB Hurries

58 Tackles

50 Stops

+33.4 Overall Grade

How does that +33.4 overall grade stack up against all 3-4 OLB from 2011?

It would be good for #3 in the entire NFL behind only Cameron Wake (+43.5) and Aldon Smith (+36.4) and ahead of players like Demarcus Ware (+32.6) and even Tamba Hali (+31.4).

The 50 stops?

Yeah, that’d be the best in the NFL.

The stops are really important because those are plays basically blown up by Houston. Add to that 12 sacks and you’ve got yourself an absolute force at OLB opposite Tamba Hali.

2012 will be Houston’s second season in Romeo Crennel’s defense. He’ll likely benefit from a full offseason of work and a more structured preseason plan from Romeo Crennel rather than Todd Haley’s “we’ll take it slow approach.” Houston should be ready right out of the gate this season and if he can string together 17 weeks of play comparable to his last eight weeks of football in 2011, the Kansas City Chiefs defense is going to be very, very good.

And Justin Houston could be heading to the Pro Bowl.

The Story. (http://arrowheadaddict.com/2012/06/18/justin-houston-heading-toward-big-season)

whoman69
06-18-2012, 08:24 PM
Errr, what's going on here? I feel like JimNasium right now.

BCD
06-18-2012, 08:29 PM
Re-break Manning

BossChief
06-18-2012, 08:49 PM
Getting Baldwin AND Houston for the 21st overall pick was just masterful usage of draft currency.

It was like a "buy one, get one half off" sale because both had perceived issues.

And they say Pioli only plays it safe.

Hog Farmer
06-18-2012, 08:50 PM
Well, I'd say this is good news. And with a beast at nose tackle we may just enjoy this defense like no other.

Okie_Apparition
06-18-2012, 09:01 PM
Where's the pineapple

scott free
06-18-2012, 09:26 PM
A ton of it is still just heavy ink on paper, but if even half of my expectations come true, its still going to be a transformed defense... scary.

I'll trust the locker room & yes i said it, 'right 53' culture to keep Houston on the right track & mentor the Poe's, the paper potential on both is sky high, Romeo worked a miracle his first year here with piecemeal, cant wait to see what he schemes up now with a far more handpicked team ... a NT with the proven/projected skills to play end, and a LB whose light magically flipped on last year, a force out of the blue.

Big Expectations, the lull before the storm.

CoMoChief
06-18-2012, 09:28 PM
Well, I'd say this is good news. And with a beast at nose tackle we may just enjoy this defense like no other.

It sure as shit better if the Chiefs want to win 9-10 games with Cassel at QB.

JFC I wish we would have been able to get Manning. He's going to return to form more than likely and with him this roster would **** teams up the ass all season long. Can you imagine playing with a lead and just unleashing Hali and Houston on opposing offenses? With Cassel it's 3 n out and defense is still catching their breath from the last series.

Fuck you Cassel

Fuck you

Fuck you

Fuck you.

BCD
06-18-2012, 09:29 PM
If Berry is 100%, and the rest of the D stays healthy, this D will rape faces.

Peyton Manning, you are on notice.

KC Tattoo
06-18-2012, 09:33 PM
Getting Baldwin AND Houston for the 21st overall pick was just masterful usage of draft currency.

It was like a "buy one, get one half off" sale because both had perceived issues.

And they say Pioli only plays it safe.

Yes and in between those picks we got our Cotf. I was really hoping for Hudson and we got him.

KC Tattoo
06-18-2012, 09:37 PM
It sure as shit better if the Chiefs want to win 9-10 games with Cassel at QB.

JFC I wish we would have been able to get Manning. He's going to return to form more than likely and with him this roster would **** teams up the ass all season long. Can you imagine playing with a lead and just unleashing Hali and Houston on opposing offenses? With Cassel it's 3 n out and defense is still catching their breath from the last series.

**** you Cassel

**** you

**** you

**** you.

No matter how excited we try to get for this team we got FN Cassel to wake us up from a wet dream.

Frankie
06-18-2012, 09:40 PM
LOL. Every thread about any other Chiefs player ends up being a Cassel thread. Such is the state of the CP.

O.city
06-18-2012, 09:43 PM
I think Houston has a bright future, but I'm gonna let it playout a little more before I put too many eggs in that basket.

Chiefshrink
06-18-2012, 10:34 PM
Houston is the real deal and as good as Von Miller is I predict Houston will rival his play most of the year. Yeah I realize they play in different defenses but just from a playmaking perspective is my point.

Two-Twenty
06-18-2012, 10:47 PM
Houston is the real deal and as good as Von Miller is I predict Houston will rival his play most of the year. Yeah I realize they play in different defenses but just from a playmaking perspective is my point.

Hope that's true sir but your reputation precedes you.

boogblaster
06-18-2012, 11:04 PM
let's hope it's true .. this team has to have a great D to win .....

-King-
06-19-2012, 12:28 AM
Cassel.

Von Dumbass
06-19-2012, 12:44 AM
Getting Baldwin AND Houston for the 21st overall pick was just masterful usage of draft currency.

It was like a "buy one, get one half off" sale because both had perceived issues.

And they say Pioli only plays it safe.

Just being objective here, but Houston and Baldwin haven't really done all that much. Baldwin made 1 or 2 crazy catches and little else, while Houston had 3 sacks against Chicago and little else.

I feel that Baldwin and Houston are the two most over hyped players on CP. Breaston is another over hyped player.

Chief_For_Life58
06-19-2012, 02:44 AM
Just being objective here, but Houston and Baldwin haven't really done all that much. Baldwin made 1 or 2 crazy catches and little else, while Houston had 3 sacks against Chicago and little else.

I feel that Baldwin and Houston are the two most over hyped players on CP. Breaston is another over hyped player.

Theyve both got the potential to be very good starters in this league

houstons gonna trent green peytons career come week 12

DaKCMan AP
06-19-2012, 05:21 AM
LOL. Every thread about any other Chiefs player ends up being a Cassel thread. Such is the state of the Chiefs/NFL.

Just being objective here, but Ayers and Thomas haven't really done all that much. Thomas catches only 27 passes each year, holds about 30 wangs in his mouth, and little else, while Ayers gets 1.5 sacks, 23 tackles, is a broke wang in Thomas's mouth, and little else.

I feel that Ayers and Thomas are the two most over hyped players on a garbage team. Clady is another over hyped player.

FYPs

InChiefsHell
06-19-2012, 05:34 AM
FYPs

That's just awesome!

the Talking Can
06-19-2012, 06:48 AM
Houston was a monster at the end of last season, and even better against the run than rushing the passer. He regularly destroyed TEs. His combo of size/speed/strength is basically incredible.

best pioli pick...epic gank in the 3rd

Micjones
06-19-2012, 07:08 AM
Just being objective here, but Houston and Baldwin haven't really done all that much. Baldwin made 1 or 2 crazy catches and little else, while Houston had 3 sacks against Chicago and little else.

I feel that Baldwin and Houston are the two most over hyped players on CP. Breaston is another over hyped player.

Houston's rookie season was nothing to sneeze at.
56 tackles, 5.5 sacks, 4 passes defensed, 1 forced fumble

I'm also not sure how Breaston is overhyped.
700+ receiving yards, 2 TD's on a team with a pretty punchless aerial attack.

Baldwin hasn't done much.
Most of the hype surrounding him is purely about his talent and athleticism.

okcchief
06-19-2012, 07:12 AM
I'm imagining Hali and Houston cutting Manning in half. I have a full chub.

Frankie
06-19-2012, 11:12 AM
I think Houston has a bright future, but I'm gonna let it playout a little more before I put too many eggs in that basket.That's exactly where I am with it. But you have to admit, the thought is titillating.

I feel that Baldwin and Houston are the two most over hyped players on CP. Breaston is another over hyped player.

Umm,... Ricki Stanzi?

PGM
06-19-2012, 11:49 AM
He'll have a year similar to the golden boy from Pile High. Hell, he outplayed him down the stretch. Blah, blah, blah injury blah, blah, blah.

BossChief
06-19-2012, 12:05 PM
If used correctly, he should mirror Lamaar Woodleys production.

Dave Lane
06-19-2012, 12:08 PM
Hope that's true sir but your reputation precedes you.

Yup...

See below

Dave Lane
06-19-2012, 12:12 PM
Just being objective here, but Houston and Baldwin haven't really done all that much. Baldwin made 1 or 2 crazy catches and little else, while Houston had 3 sacks against Chicago and little else.

I feel that Baldwin and Houston are the two most over hyped players on CP. Breaston is another over hyped player.

If Manning gets snapped in half early say week #2 whats your thoughts for the Donks next season sans Manning?

MagicHef
06-19-2012, 01:25 PM
He'll have a year similar to the golden boy from Pile High. Hell, he outplayed him down the stretch. Blah, blah, blah injury blah, blah, blah.

The article states that Houston started playing well in week 10. If you compare each player's last 8 games (weeks 10 -17, inclusive), you get:

Miller: 38 tackles, 5.5 sacks, 5.5 stuffs
Houston: 35 tackles, 5.5 sacks, 3 stuffs

It looks like an injured Von is better than Houston playing at his best.

PGM
06-19-2012, 04:37 PM
The injury is a bullshit excuse anyway.

Messier
06-19-2012, 04:46 PM
The article states that Houston started playing well in week 10. If you compare each player's last 8 games (weeks 10 -17, inclusive), you get:

Miller: 38 tackles, 5.5 sacks, 5.5 stuffs
Houston: 35 tackles, 5.5 sacks, 3 stuffs

It looks like an injured Von is better than Houston playing at his best.

I'll agree that the 2nd overall pick in the draft is slightly better than the Chiefs third round draft pick right now.

Saul Good
06-19-2012, 04:48 PM
The article states that Houston started playing well in week 10. If you compare each player's last 8 games (weeks 10 -17, inclusive), you get:

Miller: 38 tackles, 5.5 sacks, 5.5 stuffs
Houston: 35 tackles, 5.5 sacks, 3 stuffs

It looks like an injured Von is better than Houston playing at his best.

Interesting. I guess they played the same number of snaps, right?

BCD
06-19-2012, 04:51 PM
The article states that Houston started playing well in week 10. If you compare each player's last 8 games (weeks 10 -17, inclusive), you get:

Miller: 38 tackles, 5.5 sacks, 5.5 stuffs
Houston: 35 tackles, 5.5 sacks, 3 stuffs

It looks like an injured Von is better than Houston playing at his best.

Congrats, your #2 overall pick played slightly better than our 3rd rounder.

Suck it.

BCD
06-19-2012, 04:55 PM
FYPs

ROFL

PGM
06-19-2012, 04:57 PM
TAMHOOOOOOOUUUUUUUSSSSSSS!!!!!!

Shaid
06-19-2012, 04:59 PM
I'll agree that the 2nd overall pick in the draft is slightly better than the Chiefs third round draft pick right now.

LMAO

Well put.

Shaid
06-19-2012, 05:01 PM
By the way, you also aren't taking into accounts stops for loss. You know, teams run as well. Houston would beat Von there.

MagicHef
06-19-2012, 06:09 PM
By the way, you also aren't taking into accounts stops for loss. You know, teams run as well. Houston would beat Von there.

What do you think stuffs are?

MagicHef
06-19-2012, 06:11 PM
I'll agree that the 2nd overall pick in the draft is slightly better than the Chiefs third round draft pick right now.

Congrats, your #2 overall pick played slightly better than our 3rd rounder.

Suck it.

Only if you compare Von's worst against Houston's best. If you actually compare everything they've done, it's not even close. I thought that was fairly clear.

Douche Baggins
06-19-2012, 06:34 PM
Only if you compare Von's worst against Houston's best. If you actually compare everything they've done, it's not even close. I thought that was fairly clear.

Justin Houston was incredible in the second half of last season.

If he had played that way the entire year he would have easily been rated in the top five 3-4 OLBs on Pro Football Focus.

His best last year wasn't quite as good as Von's, but it was close.

MagicHef
06-19-2012, 06:51 PM
Justin Houston was incredible in the Chicago game.

If he had played that way the entire year he would have easily been rated in the top five 3-4 OLBs on Pro Football Focus.

His best last year wasn't quite as good as Von's worst, but it was close.

FYP

BigChiefFan
06-19-2012, 06:53 PM
Houston only started 10 games compared to Miller starting 15 games and they had similiar amount of tackles. Miller had 8 more tackles and five more starts. Houston looks to be the real deal.

Von Dumbass
06-19-2012, 06:53 PM
If Manning gets snapped in half early say week #2 whats your thoughts for the Donks next season sans Manning?

They would be as good as the Chargers, Saints, Giants, Patriots, and Steelers would be without their franchise QB.

The Donks wouldn't have signed Manning if he couldn't take a hit like anybody else. If Manning gets hurt, it will be a knee or ankle or something that gets injured, not his neck.

Douche Baggins
06-19-2012, 06:53 PM
FYP

Von Miller had 41 stops last year. Justin Houston had 32.

Von Miller > Justin Houston, for sure. But Justin Houston is gonna be a really good player if he keeps doing what what he did last year in the final 8 games.

BigChiefFan
06-19-2012, 07:01 PM
The Donks wouldn't have signed Manning if he couldn't take a hit like anybody else. If Manning gets hurt, it will be a knee or ankle or something that gets injured, not his neck.Bullshit. USA Today just a week ago, said Manning is still not 100%

Here ya go...

Jun 12, 2012
Peyton Manning still not 100%, but checkup encouraging
Comments 9
By Nate Davis, USA TODAY
Updated 2012-06-12 8:49 PM Peyton Manning may not have the liveliest arm on his team, but he is physically reverting to the form that made him the NFL's only four-time MVP.

It was clear during the Denver Broncos' minicamp today that Manning's velocity hasn't quite returned after multiple neck surgeries cost him all of the 2011 season, but he does look sharp and accurate with intermediate throws.Broncos QB Peyton Manning can't wait to start the season after missing all of 2011.
CAPTIONBy Ron Chenoy, US Presswire
And doctors continue to stay upbeat about his long-term prognosis.

"I still have a lot of work to do,'' Manning told USA TODAY Sports' Jim Corbett on Tuesday, one day after he'd undergone his latest checkup with the team's physicians.

"I'm so glad to be back on the field practicing. ... Last season being injured was new for me. I thought I had a good attitude about it and tried to handle it the best I could. Certainly, it feels good to be back out on the field.

"I continue to rehab. I have work to do and progress that I still need to make.''

Intensively rehabilitating the nerve damage in the triceps of his throwing arm continues to be a focal point. Manning may never be able to match passes popping off the rifle arm of rookie QB Brock Osweiler, but he did groove a nice 35-yard touchdown to WR Demaryius Thomas in today's practice, beating Pro Bowl CB Champ Bailey in the process.

"Peyton anticipated where Demaryius was going to be and saw the play the whole way," Bailey said.

"When (executive vice president of football operations) John Elway got Peyton to come here, it made my year, made my career. I've never played with a guy like this."

Still, Manning thirsts to get more out of himself physically.

"I can't emphasize enough that I still have rehab to do," he said. "That's still part of the process."

Manning is grateful to have made as many strides as he has after being forced to miss his final year with the Indianapolis Colts while sitting out the first NFL games of his career.

"I still enjoy playing," said Manning, who's entering his 15th season. "I went through the physical process through free agency checking with the medical people and coaches, checking, 'Should I continue to play?' Had they said 'No' that would have been a pretty easy answer.

"But all of them said I was good to play and should play. I've always had a great passion for the game and I still enjoy playing. I think you play the game because I love it. ... Certainly when it's time to stop playing, I'll know that. And I'll stop at the right time.''

But that isn't now. Manning is juggling his rehab, internalizing a new playbook and familiarizing himself with new teammates. Never one to shy away from a challenge, he seems to be embracing the obstacles after enjoying so much continuity with the Colts.

And when Denver's regular-season opener rolls around around Sept. 9, Manning expects to be wholly focused on picking apart the Pittsburgh Steelers, not worrying about the fused vertebrae in his neck.

"I don't worry about it," Manning says of the next hit he absorbs. "It hasn't even crossed my mind.

"I've never taken it for granted being able to play. Then, sitting out last year, I never felt sorry for myself because I had 20 years of unbelievable health going up to that point. ... Last year I tried to handle it with a good attitude. But it's nice to be back on the field with a different team, different teammates, it's exciting to do that.''

But it was also a bit exciting to see a familiar face Tuesday when Manning's longtime offensive coordinator in Indianapolis, Tom Moore (who coached alongside Denver head coach John Fox on the Steelers staff in 1989), attended practice.

"I think the world of him," Manning said of Moore. "He's enjoying seeing (former Colts) Brandon Stokley and Jacob Tamme, guys he used to coach. It was a great gesture by coach Fox (to invite Moore).

"I know a lot of people are enjoying seeing him.''

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/thehuddle/post/2012/06/broncos-qb-peyton-manning-still-not-100-but-medical-checkup-encouraging/1

Von Dumbass
06-19-2012, 07:06 PM
Intensively rehabilitating the nerve damage in the triceps of his throwing arm continues to be a focal point.

It's the nerves in his arm that are the "issue" not his neck. He is throwing with zip and his arm isn't showing fatigue as practice goes on.

Like I said, if he gets hurt it most likely will have nothing to do with his neck and will be some fluke knee injury.

BigChiefFan
06-19-2012, 07:13 PM
It's the nerves in his arm that are the "issue" not his neck. He is throwing with zip and his arm isn't showing fatigue as practice goes on.

Like I said, if he gets hurt it most likely will have nothing to do with his neck and will be some fluke knee injury.

You said NO TEAM would sign him if he couldn't take a hit and from his own mouth he states..."I can't emphasize enough that I still have rehab to do," he said.

Von Dumbass
06-19-2012, 07:36 PM
You said NO TEAM would sign him if he couldn't take a hit and from his own mouth he states..."I can't emphasize enough that I still have rehab to do," he said.

He said back in March that he could have played in a game the day after he signed in Denver. He has been cleared to play. He can take a hit.

MagicHef
06-19-2012, 07:55 PM
Houston only started 10 games compared to Miller starting 15 games and they had similiar amount of tackles. Miller had 8 more tackles and five more starts. Houston looks to be the real deal.

He may not have started, but Houston played in all 16 games last year. Miller only played in 15.

The thing is, if we play the "cherry pick games and extrapolate through a season" game with Von, we're talking about him being DPOY instead of DROY.

BCD
06-19-2012, 08:03 PM
He may not have started, but Houston played in all 16 games last year. Miller only played in 15.

The thing is, if we play the "cherry pick games and extrapolate through a season" game with Von, we're talking about him being DPOY instead of DROY.

You should dig into who dropped into coverage more.

scott free
06-19-2012, 08:14 PM
We'll just see if Hefs all-world linebacker can win games by himself.

KCD > DonkD

BigChiefFan
06-19-2012, 08:23 PM
He said back in March that he could have played in a game the day after he signed in Denver. He has been cleared to play. He can take a hit. The point is, he isn't 100%, so saying he can take a hit is pure speculation.

MagicHef
06-19-2012, 08:40 PM
We'll just see if Hefs all-world linebacker can win games by himself.

KCD > DonkD

He already did that last season. The Chargers and Jets games come to mind.

MagicHef
06-19-2012, 08:40 PM
You should dig into who dropped into coverage more.

Enlighten me.

BCD
06-19-2012, 08:45 PM
Enlighten me.

Would it matter?

You donkey homers are hellbent on trolling your garbage on a Chiefs BB.

Messier
06-19-2012, 08:49 PM
Enlighten me.

Hey, what are you upset about? Miller is a little better than Houston. Congratulations.

BCD
06-19-2012, 08:51 PM
He already did that last season. The Chargers and Jets games come to mind.

How? He didnt have a FF in either game. He had 2.5 sacks in both games, combined.

MagicHef
06-19-2012, 08:56 PM
Would it matter?

You donkey homers are hellbent on trolling your garbage on a Chiefs BB.

Yes, it would matter.

BCD
06-19-2012, 09:00 PM
Yes, it would matter.

Search. I don't care.

Miller, the 2nd overall pick, is a little better than Houston, the 70th overall pick.

Suck it.

Von Dumbass
06-19-2012, 09:02 PM
How? He didnt have a FF in either game. He had 2.5 sacks in both games, combined.
In the Charger game he had a HUGE tackle for loss on 3rd down near the end of the game that forced a 50+ yard FG attempt which the Chargers missed.

Against the Jets, 3rd and 10 with 30 some seconds to go and this happens....

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/fLpimht0tUM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

MagicHef
06-19-2012, 09:05 PM
How? He didnt have a FF in either game. He had 2.5 sacks in both games, combined.

Nate Kaeding missed his last second field goal by the slimmest of margins after Von made a great tackle for a significant loss on 3rd down on (gasp!) a running play.

On the Jets' last chance drive, Von singlehandedly destroyed the T who outweighed him by approximately one metric ton, and sacked Sanchez. This was also on 3rd down.

We would have certainly lost the Chargers game sans Von. I suppose the Jets game may have been slightly more open to interpretation.

BCD
06-19-2012, 09:06 PM
In the Charger game he had a HUGE tackle for loss on 3rd down near the end of the game that forced a 50+ yard FG attempt which the Chargers missed.

Against the Jets, 3rd and 10 with 30 some seconds to go and this happens....

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/fLpimht0tUM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Weak sauce.

The Jets had the ball at their own 25.

Stop trolling.

BCD
06-19-2012, 09:07 PM
Nate Kaeding missed his last second field goal by the slimmest of margins after Von made a great tackle for a significant loss on 3rd down on (gasp!) a running play.

On the Jets' last chance drive, Von singlehandedly destroyed the T who outweighed him by approximately one metric ton, and sacked Sanchez. This was also on 3rd down.

:eek: WELL CROWN HIS ASS

InChiefsHell
06-20-2012, 05:55 AM
Von Miller does not suck. But Houston does not either, and showed at the tail end of an abortion of a season for KC that he was coming on and looks to be a force. What's so wrong with just admitting that? Pick 2 is better than pick 70, but not by a huge margin...and we'll see what this season brings.

Saul Good
06-20-2012, 07:33 AM
Von Miller does not suck. But Houston does not either, and showed at the tail end of an abortion of a season for KC that he was coming on and looks to be a force. What's so wrong with just admitting that? Pick 2 is better than pick 70, but not by a huge margin...and we'll see what this season brings.

Yep. Congrats to the Broncos. Your best player is slightly better than our third round draft pick from last year.

MagicHef
06-20-2012, 08:12 AM
Search. I don't care.

Miller, the 2nd overall pick, is a little better than Houston, the 70th overall pick.

Suck it.

Again, this is only true if you compare Von's absolute worst to Houston's absolute best. If you do any sort of fair comparison, there is simply no contest.

It would be like me claiming that Berry, the 5th overall pick, is a little better than Carter, the 108th pick. But not by much.

Chiefshrink
06-20-2012, 08:20 AM
Hope that's true sir but your reputation precedes you.

and what reputation is that sir?

milkman
06-20-2012, 08:33 AM
and what reputation is that sir?

You're an idiot.

A well earned reputation.

Chiefshrink
06-20-2012, 08:33 AM
Yup...

See below

Hey Dave ! Tell the truth in context here about my Cassel comment that you have as your signature. And you know the truth about my comment which was made his 1st yr with the Chiefs in pre-season, when most although not excited, were still willing to give Cassel a chance at that point in time. I jumped off the Cassel bandwagon for good after the Balt playoff loss and actually started getting off the bandwagon during his so-called 2010 pro bowl yr.:rolleyes:

But I don't expect you to give an accurate context OF ANYTHING Dave, because you are a Progressive/Marxist Lib:thumb:

Chiefshrink
06-20-2012, 08:38 AM
You're an idiot.

A well earned reputation.

Delivering 'sour milk' as usual:rolleyes:

Dude ! Change your tampon, will ya??? It really makes you more self-righteously judgmental than usual:shrug:

milkman
06-20-2012, 09:06 AM
Delivering 'sour milk' as usual:rolleyes:

Dude ! Change your tampon, will ya??? It really makes you more self-righteously judgmental than usual:shrug:

You asked.
I answered.

The fact that you even had to ask, though, is proof of your idiocy.

And that idiocy is further illustrated by your recent post in the Hudson thread.

BossChief
06-20-2012, 03:56 PM
Here's the kicker about this whole debate.

We essentially got Houston FOR FREE due to the trade down and us targeting Baldwin all along.

I was/am a big fan of Millers. He is gonna be a great player that few teams have an answer for.

That said, if I could chose between Von Miller OR Houston AND Baldwin...it's not even close.

I'm taking Baldwin and Houston.

That's not even taking into account the difference in "draft currency" used to attain the players with the difference between the 2nd overall pick and the 21st overall pick.

I think once they both develop, Von is gonna be a truly elite pass rusher but will be barely average against the run while Houston will be an elite run defender and a very good pass rusher that probably consistently tops double digit sacks.

Von Dumbass
06-20-2012, 04:46 PM
Here's the kicker about this whole debate.

We essentially got Houston FOR FREE due to the trade down and us targeting Baldwin all along.

I was/am a big fan of Millers. He is gonna be a great player that few teams have an answer for.

That said, if I could chose between Von Miller OR Houston AND Baldwin...it's not even close.

I'm taking Baldwin and Houston.

That's not even taking into account the difference in "draft currency" used to attain the players with the difference between the 2nd overall pick and the 21st overall pick.

I think once they both develop, Von is gonna be a truly elite pass rusher but will be barely average against the run while Houston will be an elite run defender and a very good pass rusher that probably consistently tops double digit sacks.

Von Miller is an excellent run defender when he doesn't have his mind set on pass rushing. Really the only time he got killed against the run was on runs out of the shotgun. He would fly off the edge and the running back would run inside of the RT.

Von will be better than Houston at everything for the entirety of their careers.

PGM
06-20-2012, 04:50 PM
FYP

Clueless or just a dumbass?

Douche Baggins
06-20-2012, 04:55 PM
Von Miller is an excellent run defender when he doesn't have his mind set on pass rushing. Really the only time he got killed against the run was on runs out of the shotgun. He would fly off the edge and the running back would run inside of the RT.

Von will be better than Houston at everything for the entirety of their careers.

This is a dumbshit comparison.

Von Miller is a 240-pound guy with a certain skillset.

Justin Houston is a 270-pound guy with a completely different skillset.

One is a 4-3 OLB, the other is a 3-4 OLB.

Their responsibilities are not the same, they are not asked to do the same things.

Houston would struggle to cover RBs out of the backfield, Miller would get fucking killed if he had to take on linemen every play.

BCD
06-20-2012, 04:57 PM
Von Miller does not suck. But Houston does not either, and showed at the tail end of an abortion of a season for KC that he was coming on and looks to be a force. What's so wrong with just admitting that? Pick 2 is better than pick 70, but not by a huge margin...and we'll see what this season brings.

Good post. Completely agree.

None of us here are saying Houston is better than Miller. Unfortunately, these 2 ignorant, smug donkey fans think that every donkey player is far superior.

BossChief
06-20-2012, 04:58 PM
Von Miller is an excellent run defender when he doesn't have his mind set on pass rushing. Really the only time he got killed against the run was on runs out of the shotgun. He would fly off the edge and the running back would run inside of the RT.

Von will be better than Houston at everything for the entirety of their careers.

And you will be a welching little bitch for the rest of your life that people laugh about as soon as you leave a room.

As to your post, You have ZERO objectivity in any of your takes regarding KC or Denver...no point in discussing further.

PGM
06-20-2012, 04:59 PM
This is a dumbshit comparison.

Von Miller is a 240-pound guy with a certain skillset.

Justin Houston is a 270-pound guy with a completely different skillset.

One is a 4-3 OLB, the other is a 3-4 OLB.

Their responsibilities are not the same, they are not asked to do the same things.

Houston would struggle to cover RBs out of the backfield, Miller would get fucking killed if he had to take on linemen every play.

Naw man. In Madden his 99 in every category Von teleports through the lineman and is unstoppable....He also edited Houston down to a 60.

Douche Baggins
06-20-2012, 05:09 PM
If we want to compare Von and Justin, it's only fair to point out that Von Miller was shit his last five games, and Justin Houston was peaking his last five games.

PFF totals for their last 5 games:

Houston: +10.5 overall, +5.3 run defense, +8.1 pass rush, 6 sacks, 10 hurries, 16 stops

Miller: -4.0 overall, +0.3 run defense, -1.8 pass rush, 1 sack, 8 hurries, 3 stops.

Proof:


http://i49.tinypic.com/2ro1f12.jpg

http://i46.tinypic.com/2ng7r6u.jpg

PGM
06-20-2012, 05:23 PM
I've tried telling those homers that, but all they do is cry about his "injury"

MagicHef
06-20-2012, 05:24 PM
If we want to compare Von and Justin, it's only fair to point out that Von Miller was shit his last five games, and Justin Houston was peaking his last five games.

PFF totals for their last 5 games:

Houston: +10.5 overall, +5.3 run defense, +8.1 pass rush, 6 sacks, 10 hurries, 16 stops

Miller: -4.0 overall, +0.3 run defense, -1.8 pass rush, 1 sack, 8 hurries, 3 stops.

Proof:


http://i49.tinypic.com/2ro1f12.jpg

http://i46.tinypic.com/2ng7r6u.jpg

lol

You realize that the "last five games" aren't the same timeframe, what with those pesky playoff games. And if you're trying to do what's "only fair," perhaps don't cherrypick data, but look at all the data available.

Houston's best game in those last 5 was a +3.8. Von beat that mark 9 times last season.

PGM
06-20-2012, 05:26 PM
One player ascended. The other shit the field. It is what it is.

Douche Baggins
06-20-2012, 05:28 PM
I'm not cherry picking, because I'm not trying to make the case that Houston is better. He's not.

It's inaccurate to say "Von's worst is better than Houston's best," though.

Von Miller had an awesome season, Justin Houston had a very good half season.

More than likely both will be in the top 10 at their position group in the years to come. So you can stop with the "Von Miller shits all over Justin Houston" talk.

Especially if you look at their last five outings (and the time frame really makes no difference).

beach tribe
06-20-2012, 07:51 PM
I'm not cherry picking, because I'm not trying to make the case that Houston is better. He's not.

It's inaccurate to say "Von's worst is better than Houston's best," though.

Von Miller had an awesome season, Justin Houston had a very good half season.

More than likely both will be in the top 10 at their position group in the years to come. So you can stop with the "Von Miller shits all over Justin Houston" talk.

Especially if you look at their last five outings (and the time frame really makes no difference).

Seriously guys?
Are you really arguing with Knowmo?

BCD
06-20-2012, 07:52 PM
Seriously guys?
Are you really arguing with Knowmo?

Magichef

beach tribe
06-20-2012, 07:54 PM
Ooops. It's Hef this time. But I did see some Nuh ughhhs going on with Knowmo too.
Knowmo looks at the Donks the way I looked at the Chiefs when I was 11.
Somehow when they put on that red and gold they transformed into the best players ever. I just couldn't figure out how dumb everyone else was for not knowing this. DUH!

beach tribe
06-20-2012, 07:56 PM
Magichef

Yeah, noticed that after I had written it. The Houston pick was a great, great pick. He's gonna rape face this season.

Von Dumbass
06-20-2012, 07:58 PM
If we want to compare Von and Justin, it's only fair to point out that Von Miller was shit his last five games, and Justin Houston was peaking his last five games.



Yeah, cherry pick your stats. Check the overall season grade and Von is better in EVERY category and will be until Justin Houston gets kicked out of the league for being a pot head.

You say it's fair to point out that Von Miller was shit his last five games, but you weren't fair at all. You know exactly why Von's play tailed off at the end of the year and it had nothing to do with him sucking and everything to do with him playing with one hand.

Check out Elvis Dumervil's stats in 2008. He broke a bone in his hand week 1 against the Raiders and his production dropped mightily. The following year he led the league in sacks. He has said numerous times that a hand injury is the toughest injury for a pass rusher to play with.

Douche Baggins
06-20-2012, 08:04 PM
Dude, no one is saying Houston is better than Von.

Try a little reading comprehension.

The point is: the gap between the two is not as wide as the Grand Canyon.

BCD
06-20-2012, 08:08 PM
Yeah, noticed that after I had written it. The Houston pick was a great, great pick. He's gonna rape face this season.

What's fucked up about Homo and Magicqueef is we all know that Miller is a better pass rusher than Houston.

Where their vaginas start bleeding is when we try to tell them Miller isn't that much better, considering he was #2 overall compared to Houston, who was #70.

Butthurt ensued. :)

Von Dumbass
06-20-2012, 08:13 PM
Dude, no one is saying Houston is better than Von.

Try a little reading comprehension.

The point is: the gap between the two is not as wide as the Grand Canyon.

I believe it is.

Houston had one good game against the worst offensive line in football. Von Miller was compared to Lawrence Taylor last year by NFL GM's. Houston's upside is Mike Vrabel.

mcaj22
06-20-2012, 08:15 PM
the numbers will always be skewed because Von Miller is the best LBer that Denver has. And their defense is structured around him. Our defense is not structured around Justin Houston. He's the 3rd option in the front 7 if that. If you are comparing Miller to Derrick Johnson or Tamba Hali than its not even close, and never will be as those two are far superior players. It's not like Justin Houston is our main LBer that carries the load to stopping the run or pass rush. He will get 1 on 1 looks because of the gameplanning to that of Tamba Hali or DJ.

Von Dumbass
06-20-2012, 08:17 PM
If you are comparing Miller to Derrick Johnson or Tamba Hali than its not even close, and never will be as those two are far superior players.

GoChiefs could show you some PFF stats that say otherwise. He won't though.

BCD
06-20-2012, 08:17 PM
I believe it is.

Houston had one good game against the worst offensive line in football. Von Miller was compared to Lawrence Taylor last year by NFL GM's. Houston's upside is Mike Vrabel.

And we believe you're a fucking moron.

Is it at all possible for you to stop being a cockbag, trolling, homer for 1 fucking second?

Douche Baggins
06-20-2012, 08:17 PM
Houston had one good game against the worst offensive line in football.

You're being obtuse.

Justin Houston was one of the best outside linebackers in football the second half of last season.

That analysis comes from the same source that rated Von Miller #1.

scott free
06-20-2012, 08:21 PM
I just cant wait to put all of these pointless arguments to bed when we beat the motherloving dogshit out of denver & miller is powerless to stop it.

mcaj22
06-20-2012, 08:24 PM
we still have matt cassel, no matter how good justin houston is or how we shut miller down

we sadly still have matt fucking cassel. so we can lose any game at any time.

Von Dumbass
06-20-2012, 08:25 PM
And we believe you're a ****ing moron.

Is it at all possible for you to stop being a cockbag, trolling, homer for 1 ****ing second?

Let me just break it down.

I think that Von Miller is going to be the OLB'er of his generation. I feel he is a once in a decade type of player.

So when people try and say that Justin Houston can somehow compare to him on any level it offends me. To me, it's like a Chiefs fan trying to argue that Matt Cassel compares to Peyton Manning in some way.

You don't see me trying to compare Quinton Carter to Eric Berry.

Marcellus
06-20-2012, 08:27 PM
we still have matt cassel, no matter how good justin houston is or how we shut miller down

we sadly still have matt ****ing cassel. so we can lose any game at any time.

Does anybody else ever get tired of this shit? This thread is not about the fucking QB! Its the ****ing off season for **** sake and we have no chance of Cassel just going away so get the **** over your (not you in particular) bleeding vagina BS and quit ****ing bitching until the bullets start flying.

**** this place is depressing. :(

BCD
06-20-2012, 08:36 PM
Let me just break it down.

I think that Von Miller is going to be the OLB'er of his generation. I feel he is a once in a decade type of player.

So when people try and say that Justin Houston can somehow compare to him on any level it offends me. To me, it's like a Chiefs fan trying to argue that Matt Cassel compares to Peyton Manning in some way.

You don't see me trying to compare Quinton Carter to Eric Berry.

Boo fucking Hoo.

Go find a donkey BB if your labia is sore.

NONE OF US think Houston is better than Miller. Okay?

Dumbass.

BossChief
06-20-2012, 08:42 PM
I believe it is.

Houston had one good game against the worst offensive line in football. Von Miller was compared to Lawrence Taylor last year by NFL GM's. Houston's upside is Mike Vrabel.
Houstons ceiling is a guy that always has double digit sacks while also stuffing the run.

Lamaar Woodley is the best comparison.
Let me just break it down.

I think that Von Miller is going to be the OLB'er of his generation. I feel he is a once in a decade type of player.

So when people try and say that Justin Houston can somehow compare to him on any level it offends me. To me, it's like a Chiefs fan trying to argue that Matt Cassel compares to Peyton Manning in some way.

You don't see me trying to compare Quinton Carter to Eric Berry.
zero objectivity

Douche Baggins
06-20-2012, 08:45 PM
So when people try and say that Justin Houston can somehow compare to him on any level it offends me. To me, it's like a Chiefs fan trying to argue that Matt Cassel compares to Peyton Manning in some way.
.

Matt Cassel is in the bottom third of this league's QBs.

Justin Houston is a top 10 3-4 OLB already if you go by what he did in the final 8 games last season.

Continue being a retard.

BossChief
06-20-2012, 08:54 PM
How many games did Miller play against the "Barry Richardsons" of the NFL?

Going from Richardson and Pope to Winston and Moeaki/Boss is gonna be huge in keeping Miller contained.

beach tribe
06-20-2012, 09:53 PM
Does anybody else ever get tired of this shit? This thread is not about the ****ing QB! Its the ****ing off season for **** sake and we have no chance of Cassel just going away so get the **** over your (not you in particular) bleeding vagina BS and quit ****ing bitching until the bullets start flying.

**** this place is depressing. :(

Sick of it.
It's so fucking tired, and such a pointless waste of time to have to read the same posters post the same redundant monotonous shit in every thread.

beach tribe
06-20-2012, 09:59 PM
zero objectivity

Like I said earlier: It's Knowmo.
I've pretty much gotten used to just ignoring him. Zero Objectivity is spot on. He's basically a 12 yr old.

Chief_For_Life58
06-21-2012, 01:04 AM
Lamaar Woodley is the best comparison.


beast

MagicHef
06-21-2012, 07:14 AM
I'm not cherry picking, because I'm not trying to make the case that Houston is better. He's not.

It's inaccurate to say "Von's worst is better than Houston's best," though.

Von Miller had an awesome season, Justin Houston had a very good half season.

More than likely both will be in the top 10 at their position group in the years to come. So you can stop with the "Von Miller shits all over Justin Houston" talk.

Especially if you look at their last five outings (and the time frame really makes no difference).

Last 2 games:

Carter: 10 tackles, 2 interceptions

Berry: 10 tackles, 0 interceptions

It's not cherrypicking, because I'm not trying to make the case that Carter is better.

MagicHef
06-21-2012, 07:34 AM
What's ****ed up about Homo and Magicqueef is we all know that Miller is a better pass rusher than Houston.

Where their vaginas start bleeding is when we try to tell them Miller isn't that much better, considering he was #2 overall compared to Houston, who was #70.

Butthurt ensued. :)

Why does it matter where they were picked? It doesn't make them any better. In fact, it makes no difference at all once they're on the team.

I just don't get where you see that Von "isn't that much better." Houston's best game all season was a +4.6. Von spent 8 games above that mark, and not by just a little. +8.7, +8.0, +7.4, +6.4, +5.9 are all significantly above what Houston did all season.

+4.6 basically represents Von's median, meaning that the absolute pinnacle of what Houston was able to achieve, the reason any of you have hope for his future, the performance you're praying he can repeat, was pretty much a "meh" day for Von.

Douche Baggins
06-21-2012, 07:52 AM
Last 2 games:

Carter: 10 tackles, 2 interceptions

Berry: 10 tackles, 0 interceptions

It's not cherrypicking, because I'm not trying to make the case that Carter is better.

Who the fuck is Carter?

Two games is too small a sample size, anyway, and tackles are a pretty meaningless statistic. You need something more real, like a PFF rating.

Douche Baggins
06-21-2012, 07:58 AM
+4.6 basically represents Von's median, meaning that the absolute pinnacle of what Houston was able to achieve, the reason any of you have hope for his future, the performance you're praying he can repeat, was pretty much a "meh" day for Von.

+4.6 is a dominant game by most measurements. Anything over 2 is considered to be a very good performance.

Von's median was NOT 4.6.

His median was 3.1. (53.4 total score divided by 17 games).

Justin Houston's median over the final 8 games: 2.08.

This falls in line with what most of us are saying: The second half of last season, the gap between Houston and Miller was not enormous.

MagicHef
06-21-2012, 07:59 AM
Who the **** is Carter?

Two games is too small a sample size, anyway, and tackles are a pretty meaningless statistic. You need something more real, like a PFF rating.

2 is too small, but 5 is fine. Got it.

Carter is the Broncos' rookie 4th round safety.

Ace Gunner
06-21-2012, 07:59 AM
Von Miller = Justin Houston?

ROFL That is retarded. You know what else is retarded? The first line of that article;

"If you are looking for one NFL player that is capable of a breakout season in 2012 then look no farther than Kansas City Chiefs linebacker Justin Houston"

"further" idiot. Must be a "midwest" thing because I see it misused on Chiefs boards quite often.

MagicHef
06-21-2012, 08:01 AM
+4.6 is a dominant game by most measurements. Anything over 2 is considered to be a very good performance.

Von's median was NOT 4.6.

His median was 3.1. (53.4 total score divided by 17 games).

Justin Houston's median over the final 8 games: 2.08.

This falls in line with what most of us are saying: The second half of last season, the gap between Houston and Miller was not enormous.

Does any one else not know what the word median means?

Douche Baggins
06-21-2012, 08:01 AM
I just don't get where you see that Von "isn't that much better."

We're talking about an elite player vs a very good player.

Miller is not going to get much better (it would be very, VERY hard for him to improve on last season, he was rated so far ahead of his 4-3 OLB competitors it would be unrealistic to expect it), so the gap is going to narrow this season.

Douche Baggins
06-21-2012, 08:03 AM
Does any one else not know what the word median means?

Sorry, it's early.

But what I said makes sense.

Their average performance was not that different the 2nd half of the year.

Douche Baggins
06-21-2012, 08:06 AM
2 is too small, but 5 is fine. Got it.

Carter is the Broncos' rookie 4th round safety.

Ah, well his PFF rating was complete shit, so fuck off.

MagicHef
06-21-2012, 08:07 AM
We're talking about an elite player vs a very good player.

Miller is not going to get much better (it would be very, VERY hard for him to improve on last season, he was rated so far ahead of his 4-3 OLB competitors it would be unrealistic to expect it), so the gap is going to narrow this season.

You may be talking about an elite player vs a very good player (I'm not so sure about the "very"), but that doesn't seem to be what others on this thread are discussing.

Sorry, it's early.

But what I said makes sense.

Their average performance was not that different the 2nd half of the year.

Even after eliminating all of Houston's embarrasing performances, Von was still performing at 150% of his level. The difference doesn't seem all that small to me.

Douche Baggins
06-21-2012, 08:11 AM
Even after eliminating all of Houston's embarrasing performances, Von was still performing at 150% of his level. The difference doesn't seem all that small to me.

3.1 vs 2.08 is not that huge of a difference.

If you want to look at the entire season, that's your prerogative, but it doesn't paint an accurate picture. The Chiefs basically weren't even allowing Houston to rush the passer in the first half of the year.

MagicHef
06-21-2012, 08:14 AM
3.1 vs 2.08 is not that huge of a difference.

If you want to look at the entire season, that's your prerogative, but it doesn't paint an accurate picture. The Chiefs basically weren't even allowing Houston to rush the passer in the first half of the year.

And yet he still managed a bunch of negative run defense and pass coverage grades in those games.

Douche Baggins
06-21-2012, 08:35 AM
And yet he still managed a bunch of negative run defense and pass coverage grades in those games.

I don't know why that's relevant, unless you think he's going to go back to sucking ass.

PGM
06-21-2012, 08:42 AM
Last 2 games:

Carter: 10 tackles, 2 interceptions

Berry: 10 tackles, 0 interceptions

It's not cherrypicking, because I'm not trying to make the case that Carter is better.

Continue to ignore the fact that Carter is a complete POS that draws the attention of nobody outside of Pile High.

lcarus
06-21-2012, 08:44 AM
Well, I'd say this is good news. And with a beast at nose tackle we may just enjoy this defense like no other.

It's gonna be a great defense.

Douche Baggins
06-21-2012, 08:48 AM
The other interesting thing about Von Miller...we actually have a couple of tackles who can block him.

Denver's RT is shit.

It's entirely possible Von Miller is not particularly effective against the Chiefs this season, while Houston breaks Manning's neck.

Then what will MagicHef say...

:)

PGM
06-21-2012, 08:56 AM
These guys really believe in thier hearts that Denver has the better and more talented D.

Von Dumbass
06-21-2012, 08:57 AM
Von Miller is the guy who knocked Casshole out for the year. He deserves a picture up top or something.

MagicHef
06-21-2012, 08:57 AM
I don't know why that's relevant, unless you think he's going to go back to sucking ass.

By the same token, why would the less impressive games of Von's be relevant? Unless, of course, you think he's going to get his thumb caught in a Charger's helmet again. I would think that Houston regressing would be much more likely.

MagicHef
06-21-2012, 08:58 AM
Continue to ignore the fact that Carter is a complete POS that draws the attention of nobody outside of Pile High.

These guys really believe in thier hearts that Denver has the better and more talented D.

Yikes.

Douche Baggins
06-21-2012, 09:00 AM
By the same token, why would the less impressive games of Von's be relevant? Unless, of course, you think he's going to get his thumb caught in a Charger's helmet again.

You're basically saying Von Miller doesn't have bad games, at all, unless he's hurt.

MagicHef
06-21-2012, 09:04 AM
You're basically saying Von Miller doesn't have bad games, at all, unless he's hurt.

...yes?

Douche Baggins
06-21-2012, 09:07 AM
...yes?

That's a pretty unrealistic expectation for the rest of his career.

PGM
06-21-2012, 09:10 AM
Yikes.

Care to refute?

MagicHef
06-21-2012, 09:14 AM
Care to refute?

Refute what? Your apparant inability to follow a conversation?

Obviously my reference to Carter was a jab at Clayton's data collection practice, not me pimping a below average safety.

I also fail to see where I said anything at all about the rest of either team's defense.

PGM
06-21-2012, 09:15 AM
Refute what? Your apparant inability to follow a conversation?

Obviously my reference to Carter was a jab at Clayton's data collection practice, not me pimping a below average safety.

I also fail to see where I said anything at all about the rest of either team's defense.

That was a pretty horrible jab. Bring a better example to the table next time.

So, you think the Chiefs have a better D then?

MagicHef
06-21-2012, 09:15 AM
That's a pretty unrealistic expectation for the rest of his career.

I'm just going by what he's shown me so far. Obviously it is much more realistic to expect it from Von than it is to expect it from Houston.

MagicHef
06-21-2012, 09:17 AM
So, you think the Chiefs have a better D then?

The Chiefs are better than the Broncos everywhere except QB and Pass Rush. Luckily, these happen to be the 2 most important areas in today's NFL.

MagicHef
06-21-2012, 09:19 AM
That was a pretty horrible jab. Bring a better example to the table next time.

It must have been if you didn't notice it.

Douche Baggins
06-21-2012, 09:27 AM
The Chiefs are better than the Broncos everywhere except QB and Pass Rush. Luckily, these happen to be the 2 most important areas in today's NFL.

The Broncos had the 3rd worst pass rush in the NFL last year. Chiefs were in the middle of the pack.

Again, these are according to the same source that ranked Von Miller #1.

PGM
06-21-2012, 09:28 AM
pwnd

InChiefsHell
06-21-2012, 09:30 AM
The Broncos had the 3rd worst pass rush in the NFL last year. Chiefs were in the middle of the pack.

Again, these are according to the same source that ranked Von Miller #1.

nuh-UHHHHH!!!/donkeyhomers

PGM
06-21-2012, 09:30 AM
I am curious where the team ranked the 2nd half of the season.

Didn't they have only 9 sacks the 1st half and like 20 in the 2nd?

MagicHef
06-21-2012, 09:32 AM
The Broncos had the 3rd worst pass rush in the NFL last year. Chiefs were in the middle of the pack.

Again, these are according to the same source that ranked Von Miller #1.

That's... odd.

DEN: 41 sacks
KC: 29 sacks

Also, plenty of people had Von #1, so it's not like that adds to PFF's credibility.

Douche Baggins
06-21-2012, 09:46 AM
That's... odd.

DEN: 41 sacks
KC: 29 sacks

Also, plenty of people had Von #1, so it's not like that adds to PFF's credibility.

PFF has plenty of credibility.

MagicHef
06-21-2012, 09:54 AM
PFF has plenty of credibility.

Any insight as to the disparity between their ranking and the actual results from actual games?

Douche Baggins
06-21-2012, 10:27 AM
Any insight as to the disparity between their ranking and the actual results from actual games?

I don't know what you're talking about.

They had the 49ers rated as the #1 defense. The #1 pass rush was Philly.

That's pretty in line with reality.

Sorry that you don't realize Denver's defense is trash other than Von Miller.

MagicHef
06-21-2012, 10:31 AM
I don't know what you're talking about.

They had the 49ers rated as the #1 defense. The #1 pass rush was Philly.

That's pretty in line with reality.

Sorry that you don't realize Denver's defense is trash other than Von Miller.

I'm talking about why a defense with 29 sacks is middle of the pack in passrush, while a defense with 41 sacks, playing largely the same schedule, is 3rd worst in passrush.

Pestilence
06-21-2012, 10:41 AM
I believe it is.

Houston had one good game against the worst offensive line in football. Von Miller was compared to Lawrence Taylor last year by NFL GM's. Houston's upside is Mike Vrabel.

What did Von Miller do against the worst offensive line in football?

MagicHef
06-21-2012, 10:51 AM
What did Von Miller do against the worst offensive line in football?

According to Clay's stats, he notched a +5.9, easily beating any game that Houston has ever had.

Douche Baggins
06-21-2012, 10:53 AM
I'm talking about why a defense with 29 sacks is middle of the pack in passrush, while a defense with 41 sacks, playing largely the same schedule, is 3rd worst in passrush.

Because pass rush isn't qualified purely by sacks.

The Chiefs' top 6 pass rush guys (5 with positive pass rush ratings) generated 88 pressures in 1,308 rushes. That's 1 pressure every 14.8 rushes.

The Broncos' top 6 pass rush guys (only 2 of whom had positive pass rush ratings) generated 116 pressures in 2,086 snaps. That's 1 pressure every 18 rushes.

The Broncos had a lot more opportunities to rush the passer, but got there less frequently, basically.

MagicHef
06-21-2012, 10:57 AM
Well, you made me do it. I bought a subscription to PFF. I see why Denver's pass rush rating is so low, it's because crappy role players like Ryan McBean count exactly as much as difference makers like Von. I'll take Denver's pass rush over KC's, thank you very much.

Also, I'm surprised at how unimpressive Hali is against the run. Dumervil beat him in run defense last year.

Douche Baggins
06-21-2012, 10:58 AM
According to Clay's stats, he notched a +5.9, easily beating any game that Houston has ever had.

Exactly my point, really.

Justin Houston: 3.7 overall, 0.3 run defense, 4.2 pass rush, 3 sacks, 6 stops.

Von Miller: 5.9 overall, 3.3 run defense, 2.3 pass rush, 1 sack, 4 stops.

Von's run defense was a lot better that day, but Justin Houston had far more production in terms of impact plays - sacks and stops.

The Chicago games definitely tell us the difference between these two players is not as large as you would like to imagine.

Buckweath
06-21-2012, 11:02 AM
Von Miller will likely be Demarcus Ware, Houston could be something like Lamarr Woodley.

MagicHef
06-21-2012, 11:04 AM
Exactly my point, really.

Justin Houston: 3.7 overall, 0.3 run defense, 4.2 pass rush, 3 sacks, 6 stops.

Von Miller: 5.9 overall, 3.3 run defense, 2.3 pass rush, 1 sack, 4 stops.

Von's run defense was a lot better that day, but Justin Houston had far more production in terms of impact plays - sacks and stops.

The Chicago games definitely tell us the difference between these two players is not as large as you would like to imagine.

The awesome part about this is the fact that Von played the Chicago game with one hand.

Douche Baggins
06-21-2012, 11:04 AM
I see why Denver's pass rush rating is so low, it's because crappy role players like Ryan McBean count exactly as much as difference makers like Von. I'll take Denver's pass rush over KC's, thank you very much.


They don't count as much. It's all broken down on a per play basis.

You tout total sacks as some kind of grand indicator, but on a per play basis, which is what counts, the Broncos had 1 sack every 13 pass attempts. The Chiefs had 1 sack every 15.6 pass attempts. That's a fairly negligible difference.

Also, if we break down total pressures generated by each team on a per play basis:

Chiefs - 111 pressures, 454 pass attempts = 1 pressure every 4.09 passes.

Broncos - 149 pressures, 534 pass attempts = 1 pressure every 3.58 passes.

Negligible difference.

MagicHef
06-21-2012, 11:13 AM
I like this one:

Dumervil & Miller: 1 QB hit every 36.8 snaps

Hali & Houston: 1 QB hit every 51.2 snaps

That is not negligible.

Buckweath
06-21-2012, 11:20 AM
The Chiefs pass defense finished the season 6th best despite having no Eric Berry in the backfield and an ineffective Justin Houston early on. Not sure why a Broncos fan would come and brag about his team having a better pash rush than the Chiefs.

Buckweath
06-21-2012, 11:21 AM
I like this one:

Dumervil & Miller: 1 QB hit every 36.8 snaps

Hali & Houston: 1 QB hit every 51.2 snaps

That is not negligible.

Come on, show me how many QB hits by pass rush snap and that will make more sense.

Douche Baggins
06-21-2012, 11:21 AM
I like this one:

Dumervil & Miller: 1 QB hit every 36.8 snaps

Hali & Houston: 1 QB hit every 51.2 snaps

That is not negligible.

Hali and Houston rushed the passer 665 times and generated 18 sacks, 13 hits and 54 hurries.

Dumervil and Miller rushed the passer 1,030 times and generated 26 sacks, 28 hits and 69 hurries.

H&H: 1 sack every 36.9 attempts, 1 hit every 51 attempts, 1 hurry every 12.3 attempts.

D&M: 1 sack every 39.6 attempts, 1 hit every 36.8 attempts, 1 hurry every 14.9 attempts.

Hali and Houston generated more sacks and more hurries on a per play basis, once again pointing out a negligible difference in pass rush productivity.

MagicHef
06-21-2012, 11:22 AM
Come on, show me how many QB hits by pass rush snap and that will make more sense.

That's exactly what I just showed you. That isn't per snap total, it's per pass rush snap.

MagicHef
06-21-2012, 11:24 AM
Hali and Houston rushed the passer 665 times and generated 18 sacks, 13 hits and 54 hurries.

Dumervil and Miller rushed the passer 1,030 times and generated 26 sacks, 28 hits and 69 hurries.

H&H: 1 sack every 36.9 attempts, 1 hit every 51 attempts, 1 hurry every 12.3 attempts.

D&M: 1 sack every 39.6 attempts, 1 hit every 36.8 attempts, 1 hurry every 14.9 attempts.

Hali and Houston generated more sacks and more hurries on a per play basis, once again pointing out a negligible difference in pass rush productivity.

I agree that the sacks and hurries are basically negligible, but I wouldn't say that about the hits. Those numbers are pretty far apart.

Douche Baggins
06-21-2012, 11:26 AM
OK. So you lose two out of three. Thanks for playing.

MagicHef
06-21-2012, 11:27 AM
Wow, Joe Mays was +10.8 overall, while Belcher was -0.1 overall. I never would have guessed.

Douche Baggins
06-21-2012, 11:29 AM
Wow, Joe Mays was +10.8 overall, while Belcher was -0.1 overall. I never would have guessed.

Joe Mays missed 21 fucking tackles. That's terrible.

MagicHef
06-21-2012, 11:34 AM
Joe Mays missed 21 ****ing tackles. That's terrible.

Wait, it changes by how you look him up. If you look on the ILB list, Mays is +10.8. If you look him up by name, he's +3.3, but I'm pretty sure he played ILB all season.

Belcher is -0.1 no matter how you look him up.

MagicHef
06-21-2012, 11:48 AM
Overall:
Von: 53.4
Hali: 31.4
DJ: 24.8

Run Defense:
Von: 22.9
Hali: 6.9
DJ: 19.4

Pass Rush:
Von: 28.7
Hali: 26.9
DJ: 3.5

Pass Coverage:
Von: 5.3
Hali: 0.0
DJ: 1.3

So, Von is better than both Hali and DJ in every single way.

Thanks Clay, this is a lot of fun!

Douche Baggins
06-21-2012, 12:04 PM
I don't think anyone on here was trying to say Hali or DJ were better players than Von Miller.

You are being very obtuse.

Douche Baggins
06-21-2012, 12:05 PM
Wait, it changes by how you look him up. If you look on the ILB list, Mays is +10.8. If you look him up by name, he's +3.3, but I'm pretty sure he played ILB all season.

Belcher is -0.1 no matter how you look him up.

The individual page includes playoff statistics.

MagicHef
06-21-2012, 12:13 PM
I don't think anyone on here was trying to say Hali or DJ were better players than Von Miller.

You are being very obtuse.

I was going to say that they were in this thread:

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=260604

But, then I realized that it was just PGM. So, I'm not sure if that really counts.

L.A. Chieffan
06-21-2012, 12:13 PM
Druggie, he'll get caught again.

MagicHef
06-21-2012, 12:15 PM
The individual page includes playoff statistics.

So it does. Wow, he was awful in those 2 games.

He missed 7 tackles against the Steelers alone.

MagicHef
06-21-2012, 12:18 PM
the numbers will always be skewed because Von Miller is the best LBer that Denver has. And their defense is structured around him. Our defense is not structured around Justin Houston. He's the 3rd option in the front 7 if that. If you are comparing Miller to Derrick Johnson or Tamba Hali than its not even close, and never will be as those two are far superior players. It's not like Justin Houston is our main LBer that carries the load to stopping the run or pass rush. He will get 1 on 1 looks because of the gameplanning to that of Tamba Hali or DJ.

Oh, here it is.

L.A. Chieffan
06-21-2012, 12:19 PM
Oh, here it is.

Stats don't tell the whole story

vailpass
06-21-2012, 12:20 PM
The usual off-season much ado about absolutely nothing. Come on Training Camp you can't get here soon enough.

BCD
06-21-2012, 12:30 PM
Overall:
Von: 53.4
Hali: 31.4
DJ: 24.8

Run Defense:
Von: 22.9
Hali: 6.9
DJ: 19.4

Pass Rush:
Von: 28.7
Hali: 26.9
DJ: 3.5

Pass Coverage:
Von: 5.3
Hali: 0.0
DJ: 1.3

So, Von is better than both Hali and DJ in every single way.

Thanks Clay, this is a lot of fun!Good Christ, you're a fucking moron.

NO ONE HERE SAID HOUSTON, DJ, OR HALI IS BETTER THAN VON.

Now, go away. Your momma called, its time for your breastfeeding.

Micjones
06-21-2012, 12:44 PM
It's okay to concede that Von Miller's a hell of a LB who might be more talented than any single LB we have on this defense.

At the end of the day, as a unit, this is clearly a better defense.

I'm excited about the Chiefs shutting the Broncos up this season.
We're a better team. Their lone advantage, Manning, hasn't played a good game against the Chiefs since the end of George W. Bush's 1st term as President.

MagicHef
06-21-2012, 01:10 PM
Good Christ, you're a ****ing moron.

NO ONE HERE SAID HOUSTON, DJ, OR HALI IS BETTER THAN VON.

Now, go away. Your momma called, its time for your breastfeeding.

Uh, yes, someone did.

Even if they didn't, is it against board rules to observe things somewhat relevant to a thread? No one was bothered by my Mays observation.

BCD
06-21-2012, 01:15 PM
Uh, yes, someone did.

Even if they didn't, is it against board rules to observe things somewhat relevant to a thread? No one was bothered by my Mays observation.

Where?

MagicHef
06-21-2012, 01:27 PM
Where?

Post #93. I quoted it literally 3 posts above your giant text freakout.

Messier
06-21-2012, 01:33 PM
The usual off-season much ado about absolutely nothing. Come on Training Camp you can't get here soon enough.

Exactly. Back and forth threads like this make me feel stupid for wasting my time reading them, and make me miss football all the more.

Douche Baggins
06-21-2012, 01:41 PM
I'm glad we have a Bronco homer on PFF now.

Should lead to some interesting debates.

BCD
06-21-2012, 01:47 PM
Post #93. I quoted it literally 3 posts above your giant text freakout.

Whoa. One person.

Put a bandage on your labia, and move on...

MagicHef
06-21-2012, 01:56 PM
I'm glad we have a Bronco homer on PFF now.

Should lead to some interesting debates.

I went through some sort of expected starting roster for the upcoming season, only I excluded all rookies, since they have no rating. I was surprised at the areas where the Broncos were superior. I took the last full season (or close to it) for each player.

Manning (32.3) > Cassel (-5.4)
Dreessen (10.7) > Moeaki (9.8)
Tamme (-3.0) > Boss (-6.0)
Bannan (8.8) > Dorsey (5.2) (I wasn't sure who to compare here, but Bannan is rated higher than any of KC's DL)
Miller (53.4) > Houston (6.8) (Again, unsure who to compare, but Miller is rated higher than any KC player)
Mays (3.3) > Belcher (-0.1)
Bailey (11.3) > Flowers (10.6)
Adams (1.5) > Lewis (-0.4)

So that's 8 players out of 22 starters. Should be interesting. I can't wait.

MagicHef
06-21-2012, 01:58 PM
Whoa. One person.

Put a bandage on your labia, and move on...

In case you didn't notice, I'm not the one upset by what other people are posting. Perhaps the bandage would better serve on someone else.

BCD
06-21-2012, 02:14 PM
In case you didn't notice, I'm not the one upset by what other people are posting. Perhaps the bandage would better serve on someone else.

Then why are you so fucking defensive about everything?

MagicHef
06-21-2012, 02:17 PM
Then why are you so ****ing defensive about everything?

Like?

BCD
06-21-2012, 02:40 PM
Like?

:spock:

BossChief
06-21-2012, 02:53 PM
I'd like to see some of those pass rush metrics applied to strictly the last 8 games.

The difference over the full season is fairly negligible, but it was obvious that the Chiefs defensive coaching staff didn't use Houston properly the first 8 games and once they did EVERYTHING on the defense changed for the better.

I bet those numbers fall in favor of KC over the last 8 games, but I bet it's really close.

Douche Baggins
06-21-2012, 03:09 PM
Bannan (8.8) > Dorsey (5.2) (I wasn't sure who to compare here, but Bannan is rated higher than any of KC's DL)


You can't really compare these two players, though.

They play different positions.

Also, Dorsey was rated as the 2nd best run defender at his position. That means he's doing his job very, very well.

PGM
06-21-2012, 03:18 PM
I was going to say that they were in this thread:

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=260604

But, then I realized that it was just PGM. So, I'm not sure if that really counts.

ROFL One was an All Pro which holds an infinite more amount of respect than a Pro Bowl berth. How was I wrong again?

MagicHef
06-21-2012, 03:24 PM
I'd like to see some of those pass rush metrics applied to strictly the last 8 games.

The difference over the full season is fairly negligible, but it was obvious that the Chiefs defensive coaching staff didn't use Houston properly the first 8 games and once they did EVERYTHING on the defense changed for the better.

I bet those numbers fall in favor of KC over the last 8 games, but I bet it's really close.

Last 8 games (Miller & Dumervil vs. Hali & Houston)

HH:
1 sack every 30.3 rush snaps
1 hit every 72.6 rush snaps
1 hurry every 10.4 rush snaps

MD:
1 sack every 31.7 rush snaps
1 hit every 33.9 rush snaps
1 hurry every 19.8 rush snaps

Sacks are close, the other 2 aren't, but they're in opposite directions.

MagicHef
06-21-2012, 03:25 PM
You can't really compare these two players, though.

They play different positions.

Also, Dorsey was rated as the 2nd best run defender at his position. That means he's doing his job very, very well.

Who would you compare Bannan to?

PGM
06-21-2012, 03:26 PM
Total Defense

KC 11th
Den 20th

Points Allowed

KC 12th
Den 24th

Go fuck yourself Hef Diego

Douche Baggins
06-21-2012, 03:35 PM
Last 8 games (Miller & Dumervil vs. Hali & Houston)

HH:

1 hurry every 10.4 rush snaps

MD:

1 hurry every 19.8 rush snaps


That is a fairly huge discrepancy in a very important statistic.

If Houston does what he did during the last 8 games for an entire season, the Chiefs are gonna kill a lot of QBs.

PGM
06-21-2012, 03:37 PM
Does that amazing Denver D get to lay down against the Pats this year again?

BossChief
06-21-2012, 03:42 PM
Last 8 games (Miller & Dumervil vs. Hali & Houston)

HH:
1 sack every 30.3 rush snaps
1 hit every 72.6 rush snaps
1 hurry every 10.4 rush snaps

MD:
1 sack every 31.7 rush snaps
1 hit every 33.9 rush snaps
1 hurry every 19.8 rush snaps

Sacks are close, the other 2 aren't, but they're in opposite directions.
Pos rep for posting this.

IMO that's what I expect to see going forward.

BCD
06-21-2012, 03:45 PM
Total Defense

KC 11th
Den 20th

Points Allowed

KC 12th
Den 24th

Go fuck yourself Hef DiegoThese numbers will confuse Magiqueer.

MagicHef
06-21-2012, 03:48 PM
That is a fairly huge discrepancy in a very important statistic.

If Houston does what he did during the last 8 games for an entire season, the Chiefs are gonna kill a lot of QBs.

The hits have a larger discrepancy in, what is to me, a more important statistic. All while Von had one hand.

PGM
06-21-2012, 03:48 PM
I'm curious how many 3 and outs the Chiefs offense had last season compared to the rest of the league. Look at how many extra possessions the D had to face, because of that abortion of a unit.

BossChief
06-21-2012, 03:50 PM
Total Defense

KC 11th
Den 20th

Points Allowed

KC 12th
Den 24th

Go fuck yourself Hef Diego

I remember reading that we were top 5 in both categories over the course of the last 8 games last year.

All those early blowouts coupled with Cassel at qb really skewed the whole year stats.

Add Berry to the mix and with the expected improvement of our young players factored in, our defense should have a pretty impressive year.

MagicHef
06-21-2012, 03:51 PM
These numbers will confuse Magiqueer.

Really, I'm flattered at the attention, but maybe try posting something constructive once in a while.

BossChief
06-21-2012, 03:53 PM
The hits have a larger discrepancy in, what is to me, a more important statistic. All while Von had one hand.

Von had one hand and we had Sabby and McGraw starting.

Those even out.

MagicHef
06-21-2012, 03:55 PM
Von had one hand and we had Sabby and McGraw starting.

Those even out.

For QB hits?

MagicHef
06-21-2012, 03:56 PM
I'm curious how many 3 and outs the Chiefs offense had last season compared to the rest of the league. Look at how many extra possessions the D had to face, because of that abortion of a unit.

I don't see any 3 and out stats, but KC had the #20 offense. DEN was dead last.

BCD
06-21-2012, 04:04 PM
Really, I'm flattered at the attention, but maybe try posting something constructive once in a while.

Why? You smug donkey fans will ignore it and just post some homer shit.

BossChief
06-21-2012, 04:06 PM
For QB hits?

Yes

Douche Baggins
06-21-2012, 04:12 PM
The hits have a larger discrepancy in, what is to me, a more important statistic. All while Von had one hand.

The statistic that best indicates the quality of a pass rush is hurries, period.

You look at the best pass rushers in PFF, they rack up a lot of hurries.

You're just trying to spin.

MagicHef
06-21-2012, 04:50 PM
Yes

You think having backup safties impacts whether or not the QB gets hit as much as having your best passrusher hobbled? I would disagree.

MagicHef
06-21-2012, 04:52 PM
The statistic that best indicates the quality of a pass rush is hurries, period.

You look at the best pass rushers in PFF, they rack up a lot of hurries.

You're just trying to spin.

Clearly Israel Idonije is a better pass rusher than JPP.

Tribal Warfare
06-21-2012, 04:54 PM
You think having backup safties impacts whether or not the QB gets hit as much as having your best passrusher hobbled? I would disagree.

yes, it takes the QB longer to survey the field when competent DBs are in the secondary. Thus, the QB holds onto the ball longer.

BossChief
06-21-2012, 04:55 PM
You think having backup safties impacts whether or not the QB gets hit as much as having your best passrusher hobbled? I would disagree.

I would argue that having two safeties that can't cover impacts how long said quarterback needs to hold the ball.

That's easily as important as a pass rusher being impacted by a broken thumb.

Even more so when talking about "qb hits"

BCD
06-21-2012, 04:56 PM
You think having backup safties impacts whether or not the QB gets hit as much as having your best passrusher hobbled? I would disagree.

Wow.

:spock:

Douche Baggins
06-21-2012, 05:02 PM
Clearly Israel Idonije is a better pass rusher than JPP.

You are cherry picking, again.

Look at the numbers as a whole.

The guys with the most hurries are the best pass rushers for the most part.

Andre Carter led all DEs in QB hits, but he was the 26th best pass rusher.

QB hits are not as important in the PFF system.

Look at the guys who led the league in pressures among OLB:

Wake, Ware, Orakpo, Hali, Matthews.

Those are all the top guys.

MagicHef
06-21-2012, 05:26 PM
You are cherry picking, again.

Look at the numbers as a whole.

The guys with the most hurries are the best pass rushers for the most part.

Andre Carter led all DEs in QB hits, but he was the 26th best pass rusher.

QB hits are not as important in the PFF system.

Look at the guys who led the league in pressures among OLB:

Wake, Ware, Orakpo, Hali, Matthews.

Those are all the top guys.

Jared Allen led the entire league in sacks, but he is not the passrushing wizard that Jabaal Sheard is, because he has quite a few less hurries.

MagicHef
06-21-2012, 05:30 PM
I would argue that having two safeties that can't cover impacts how long said quarterback needs to hold the ball.

That's easily as important as a pass rusher being impacted by a broken thumb.

Even more so when talking about "qb hits"

Who was the last Chiefs passrusher with a hand injury? The Broncos have had Dumervil and Miller go through it recently, and it is ridiculous the difference it makes. Much bigger than when Champ, Dawkins or Lynch were out and replaced by a lesser talent.

BCD
06-21-2012, 05:35 PM
Who was the last Chiefs passrusher with a hand injury? The Broncos have had Dumervil and Miller go through it recently, and it is ridiculous the difference it makes. Much bigger than when Champ, Dawkins or Lynch were out and replaced by a lesser talent.

Why do you keep whining about the hand injury?

MagicHef
06-21-2012, 05:59 PM
Why do you keep whining about the hand injury?

Read the post you quoted, it explains it pretty well.

BossChief
06-21-2012, 06:22 PM
Read the post you quoted, it explains it pretty well.

Playing hurt is part of football.

Douche Baggins
06-21-2012, 06:22 PM
Jared Allen led the entire league in sacks, but he is not the passrushing wizard that Jabaal Sheard is, because he has quite a few less hurries.

You are cherry picking, again.

Allen also had plenty of hurries, but was far down the list in hits.

QB hits are pretty much not an indicator of anything.

Von Dumbass
06-21-2012, 06:28 PM
Von had one hand and we had Sabby and McGraw starting.

Those even out.


And Dumervil was hurt the first 8 games of the season.

I also don't know why you are mentioning safeties but whatever. It's not like Denver had great safety play last season. Dawkins got hurt towards the end of the year and they never really had a solid option at FS. Quentin Carter, Rahim Moore, Kyle McCarthy, Rafael Bush, and David Bruton all started at some point for Denver last year.

BCD
06-21-2012, 06:31 PM
And Dumervil was hurt the first 8 games of the season.

I also don't know why you are mentioning safeties but whatever. It's not like Denver had a great safety play last season. Dawkins got hurt towards the end of the year and they never really had a solid option at FS. Quentin Carter, Rahim Moore, Kyle McCarthy, Rafael Bush, and David Bruton all started at some point for Denver last year.

http://hahnemannkiaawaz.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Crying-baby3.jpg

Von Dumbass
06-21-2012, 06:31 PM
yes, it takes the QB longer to survey the field when competent DBs are in the secondary. Thus, the QB holds onto the ball longer.

The Donks played with Andre Goodman at corner all season. I bet he had a PFF rating 10 points below Carr.

Tribal Warfare
06-21-2012, 06:45 PM
The Donks played with Andre Goodman at corner all season. I bet he had a PFF rating 10 points below Carr.

KC had a street free agent at SS. Who blew more than Tory Lane at a bukakefest

philfree
06-21-2012, 07:02 PM
This debate sucks. The way each player was brought along and how they were used was different. It'll be fun to see how each plays this year but IMO Houston is going to break out. I think he'll have more sacks then Hali but together they'll combine for around between 25 to 30 sacks. Miller is a stud and Houston is a stud:shrug: After one year in the league it's just too early to say who's the best. Miller had a better rookie sack total but it's just one year. After three years or so in the league I bet these two aren't far apart in stats. It doesn't matter though because Miller is a donk slong sucker so he loses on all fronts.

I usually don't do something like this but I see Houston as the guy to end Mannings season and maybe his career.

Well that's if he doesn't pee hot......

BossChief
06-21-2012, 07:08 PM
Well that's if he doesn't pee hot......
or try to use his dogs pee to pass an NFL drug test.

MagicHef
06-21-2012, 07:15 PM
You are cherry picking, again.

Allen also had plenty of hurries, but was far down the list in hits.

QB hits are pretty much not an indicator of anything.

From what I can see, they indicate passrushing prowess about the same as hurries do. The great players tend to have more of both, but not always. Claiming one is so much better than the other in terms of an indicator looks pretty silly to me.

Otherwise, a hit just seems like a hurry plus some roughness towards the QB. I'll take hits, thank you.

BossChief
06-21-2012, 07:21 PM
Hits are slowly turning into roughing/late hit penalties.

Pressures effect release points, accuracy and zip on the ball.

philfree
06-21-2012, 07:31 PM
or try to use his dogs pee to pass an NFL drug test.

The difference is that Houston only got 3rd round money so there's a good chance he'll stay clean until he gets his huge payday.

LOL Dog pee?????ROFL

MagicHef
06-21-2012, 07:33 PM
KC had a street free agent at SS. Who blew more than Tory Lane at a bukakefest

Sabby was rated higher than Carter, and McGraw was rated higher than Moore.

milkman
06-21-2012, 07:59 PM
I'm pretty sure that this might be the most pointless, inane argument ever.

BossChief
06-21-2012, 08:05 PM
I'm pretty sure that this might be the most pointless, inane argument ever.

Training camp can't get here soon enough.

Sorter
06-21-2012, 08:06 PM
Sabby was rated higher than Carter, and McGraw was rated higher than Moore.

Wut?

BCD
06-21-2012, 08:09 PM
Just being objective here, but Houston and Baldwin haven't really done all that much. Baldwin made 1 or 2 crazy catches and little else, while Houston had 3 sacks against Chicago and little else.

I feel that Baldwin and Houston are the two most over hyped players on CP. Breaston is another over hyped player.

This is the gem that started all this shit.

Homo is nothing but a huge, gaping, bleeding vagina.

BCD
06-21-2012, 08:12 PM
The article states that Houston started playing well in week 10. If you compare each player's last 8 games (weeks 10 -17, inclusive), you get:

Miller: 38 tackles, 5.5 sacks, 5.5 stuffs
Houston: 35 tackles, 5.5 sacks, 3 stuffs

It looks like an injured Von is better than Houston playing at his best.

And then this from Magiqueef.

Douche Baggins
06-21-2012, 08:37 PM
From what I can see, they indicate passrushing prowess about the same as hurries do.

An elite pass rusher is generally gonna have 4x as many pressures as hits. Maybe even 5x as many.

Gee, I wonder which is more indicative of pass rushing prowess.

Look, it's nice that you've latched onto hits as some kind of grand indicator, just because Von had a lot, but it's a statistical aberration. QB hits are the icing on the cake.

MagicHef
06-21-2012, 09:22 PM
An elite pass rusher is generally gonna have 4x as many pressures as hits. Maybe even 5x as many.

Gee, I wonder which is more indicative of pass rushing prowess.

Look, it's nice that you've latched onto hits as some kind of grand indicator, just because Von had a lot, but it's a statistical aberration. QB hits are the icing on the cake.

The thing is, I never claimed that hits were any kind of indicator, I just said I would prefer them.

MagicHef
06-21-2012, 09:55 PM
Hits are slowly turning into roughing/late hit penalties.

Pressures effect release points, accuracy and zip on the ball.

Honestly, I thought that a lot of Von's hits were too late, and should have been penalties. Later in the season, though, one of the announcers pointed out that officials now look much more for where a rusher hits the QB and what part if his body he uses, and said that Von was very good at hitting QBs just right to not get called.

He's also very good at hurting QBs. He put Cassel out for the season, obviously, he hurt Sanchez somehow, holding him out of practices for the next half week, and he gave Ponder some sort of contusion on his hip that almost made him leave the game. Any time that he wasn't on the field, Ponder had to spend on an exercise bike to keep his leg from seizing up. I think there was another QB or two that Von hurt. That's probably why I like hits so much, it was pretty obvious that several QBs were playing more timidly after meeting Von a few times.