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View Full Version : Other Sports Should steroid use determine who is in the HOF?


whoman69
06-19-2012, 02:42 PM
With the recent Roger Clemens decision, whether players that have been involved with steroids should be part of the baseball HOF has come back into the discussion. Thus far the writers have sent a resounding no to that answer.

Keep in mind that part of the criteria for the baseball hall deals with off the field issues as well. Players like Orlando Cepeda were kept out of the hall for years because of their connections to drugs while borderline players like Keith Hernandez did not even come close to election. The All-time hits king is not even eligible because of betting on baseball.

BTW, there is no Gaz option. If you don't like baseball or don't care about this issue, why are you even reading this?

tredadda
06-19-2012, 02:47 PM
I think it should be a determining criteria. The standard needs to be uniform across the board though. Although he was a great player I would personally remove Ty Cobb if you want to start using character as a criteria to join.

Reerun_KC
06-19-2012, 02:48 PM
No....

Its baseball.. Steriods mean as much to Baseball as the American Flag does to the United States...

Zeke
06-19-2012, 02:50 PM
Steroids or not, those people still went out and did what they did against others using the same shit.

Deberg_1990
06-19-2012, 02:53 PM
Why have HRs gone down in recent years compared to the 90s and early 2000's??

blaise
06-19-2012, 02:57 PM
Bonds will get in because the writers don't want to be called racists. Once they let him in it's going to allow Clemens and others to get in.

whoman69
06-19-2012, 02:58 PM
Why have HRs gone down in recent years compared to the 90s and early 2000's??

There are probably a lot of factors involved. Average hitters are not getting $10 million contracts. Average pitchers are. Steroids, umpires, the ball could all be factors in that. Baseball never really studies that and we wouldn't know for years anyway, by which time the cycle may run back to the hitters.

whoman69
06-19-2012, 03:00 PM
Bonds will get in because the writers don't want to be called racists. Once they let him in it's going to allow Clemens and others to get in.

Not a chance that will have anything to do with it.

CoMoChief
06-19-2012, 03:01 PM
steroids doesn't improve hand/eye coord.

BCD
06-19-2012, 03:05 PM
steroids doesn't improve hand/eye coord.

No. But it makes you build muscle, with makes you stronger, which can give you a quicker bat swing/more power.

whoman69
06-19-2012, 03:10 PM
There was an interesting argument on Dan Patrick this morning. He essentially torpedoes the argument that players like Bonds and Clemens were HOF worthy before they started taking. He said that if you're worthy, you don't cheat. Pretty convincing argument IMO. He pointed out that these players made a choice because the union nixed testing all those years so they couldn't get caught. The players who made the choice to take steroids did so in the hopes of making more money. Clemens career earnings before coming to the Blue Jays, which is when most agree that if he used that is when he started, was $30 million. He earned $120 million after that. Bonds earned $7 million prior to coming to the Giants, and $180 million after.

BIG_DADDY
06-19-2012, 03:15 PM
A better question would be, should the media have any say in HOF voting. My answer would be a definitive NO!!!!

tredadda
06-19-2012, 03:16 PM
steroids doesn't improve hand/eye coord.

Nope, but it does turn fly outs into homeruns and simple groundouts into basehits.

BIG_DADDY
06-19-2012, 03:16 PM
There was an interesting argument on Dan Patrick this morning. He essentially torpedoes the argument that players like Bonds and Clemens were HOF worthy before they started taking. He said that if you're worthy, you don't cheat. Pretty convincing argument IMO. He pointed out that these players made a choice because the union nixed testing all those years so they couldn't get caught. The players who made the choice to take steroids did so in the hopes of making more money. Clemens career earnings before coming to the Blue Jays, which is when most agree that if he used that is when he started, was $30 million. He earned $120 million after that. Bonds earned $7 million prior to coming to the Giants, and $180 million after.

Fuck Dan Patrick and Fuck the media.

whoman69
06-19-2012, 03:18 PM
steroids doesn't improve hand/eye coord.

Let's not start this again. If steroids doesn't help baseball players, they wouldn't take it and numbers would not have been at a historical high. There were more players that hit 50 home runs in the approximately 15 years of the steroid era than had in the 70 years since the dead ball era. Barry Bonds is one of only three players in history whose numbers went up after age 35. The other two were Tris Speaker, who was effected by the dead ball era, and Paul Molitor who was finally healthy after becoming a DH. Bonds numbers didn't just jump, they went through the roof.

whoman69
06-19-2012, 03:19 PM
A better question would be, should the media have any say in HOF voting. My answer would be a definitive NO!!!!

Players haven't been much better. The Veterans Committee is famous for ex-players voting their teamates in. The writers are actually ticked at them for dropping the standards by letting in their rejects.

loochy
06-19-2012, 03:21 PM
no because who the hell cares

BigCatDaddy
06-19-2012, 03:22 PM
I think so, but it's a tough call since they weren't against the rules at the time most were using.

BIG_DADDY
06-19-2012, 03:26 PM
Players haven't been much better. The Veterans Committee is famous for ex-players voting their teamates in. The writers are actually ticked at them for dropping the standards by letting in their rejects.

Anything, I mean anything would be better than letting the media have a say.

Reaper16
06-19-2012, 03:39 PM
Yes, but not an eliminating factor.

Name me an old-school Hall of Famer from the '30s on who you can reasonably say WASN'T using amphetamines. You can't.

Baseball players have been taking things to improve bodily performance for the entire history of the game. Players will always be looking to whatever they can get away with to get an edge.

blaise
06-19-2012, 04:22 PM
Not a chance that will have anything to do with it.

Yes it will, in my opinion.

thomas
06-19-2012, 04:24 PM
Steroids or not, those people still went out and did what they did against others using the same shit.

Exactly everyone was juicing.

ImAWalkingCorpse
06-19-2012, 04:30 PM
Same media snobs that are HOF voters ate up all of the homeruns and celebrated them. They can stick it with their holier than thou crap now.

Deberg_1990
06-19-2012, 04:43 PM
Who makes the Hall first? Sosa, McGwire, Palmeriro, Bonds, Or Clemons or Johnny Damon? Don't laugh, Damon is only 254 hits away from 3000.

tredadda
06-19-2012, 04:45 PM
Who makes the Hall first? Sosa, McGwire, Palmeriro, Bonds, Or Clemons?

Bonds. He will be eligible before Clemens.

Dr. Facebook Fever
06-19-2012, 04:50 PM
Bonds will get in because the writers don't want to be called racists. Once they let him in it's going to allow Clemens and others to get in.

There are plenty of black dudes already in the HOF.

blaise
06-19-2012, 04:52 PM
There are plenty of black dudes already in the HOF.

From the steroid era?

Deberg_1990
06-19-2012, 04:53 PM
From the steroid era?

Ken Griffey Jr will be 1st ballot.

blaise
06-19-2012, 04:55 PM
Ken Griffey Jr will be 1st ballot.

He wasn't associated with Balco or steroids. I'm using Bonds as a standard for guys whose careers have been associated with steroids.

Saul Good
06-19-2012, 04:56 PM
Here's the way I see it. Steroids help people recover from injuries more quickly. How can you tell someone who is injured, "you can't use steroids to heal faster. You have to just sit there and be injured even though there is a way to heal more quickly"?

Dr. Facebook Fever
06-19-2012, 04:57 PM
From the steroid era?

LOL well I'd have to look that up but I'm sure Bonds wouldn't be the first. That's not my point anyway. I'm saying I don't believe if Bonds doesn't make it, it will be because he's black. He was an asshole to the media... and they have a vote. The "perception that he cheated" is strong so others who vote won't likely like that. Pete Rose cheated and he's not in... is that racist?

It wouldn't surprise me if Bonds played the race card if he doesn't get in but really who takes that seriously anymore except for the one accusing people of it?

Deberg_1990
06-19-2012, 04:58 PM
There was an interesting argument on Dan Patrick this morning. He essentially torpedoes the argument that players like Bonds and Clemens were HOF worthy before they started taking. He said that if you're worthy, you don't cheat. Pretty convincing argument IMO. He pointed out that these players made a choice because the union nixed testing all those years so they couldn't get caught. The players who made the choice to take steroids did so in the hopes of making more money. Clemens career earnings before coming to the Blue Jays, which is when most agree that if he used that is when he started, was $30 million. He earned $120 million after that. Bonds earned $7 million prior to coming to the Giants, and $180 million after.

I think this is a pretty interesting take.....

Is it any coincidence that the Roids era took off at the same time as salaries started to skyrocket??

Dr. Facebook Fever
06-19-2012, 04:59 PM
He wasn't associated with Balco or steroids. I'm using Bonds as a standard for guys whose careers have been associated with steroids.

But you also said he'd get in so it doesn't look like racism kept him out. That's what changed the arguement.

blaise
06-19-2012, 05:04 PM
LOL well I'd have to look that up but I'm sure Bonds wouldn't be the first. That's not my point anyway. I'm saying I don't believe if Bonds doesn't make it, it will be because he's black. He was an asshole to the media... and they have a vote. The "perception that he cheated" is strong so others who vote won't likely like that. Pete Rose cheated and he's not in... is that racist?

It wouldn't surprise me if Bonds played the race card if he doesn't get in but really who takes that seriously anymore except for the one accusing people of it?

My initial point is that there's going to be steroid era guys that come up for vote. If a voter now says no to McGwire there's no real risk of any backlash. Even with Clemens there wouldn't be.
But I remember when Bonds was going for the HR record under a cloud of steroids use. The radio conversation was largely about race. If a HOF voter says no to Bonds he may open himself up to a discussion about race, or someone saying he's racist. Especially if he's a guy like Richard Justice that does radio and has fans call in the show. I think some of them may just say, "You know what? He was a HOFer already. I don't want to get into a racial debate. I'm just going to vote him in." Then once that happens, how do you say no to Clemens?
Pete Rose is banned from baseball and therefore not eligible for the HOF anyway.

blaise
06-19-2012, 05:05 PM
But you also said he'd get in so it doesn't look like racism kept him out. That's what changed the arguement.

I think he'll get in because his numbers are good enough and partly because some won't want to be accused of racism, yes. I don't see why that has anything to do with Griffey. The topic of the thread is steroid use and the HOF.

Dr. Facebook Fever
06-19-2012, 05:16 PM
Fair enough blaise, we'll just have to agree to disagree about the race thing. I don't think it'll be a big player but you could end up being right.

The point about Griffey being in is that he DIDN'T break the rules and gets in, and he's black. So Bonds really doesn't have a leg to stand on imo if he plays race because he doesn't get in. No... he's a suspicious charactor to most people so they're uncomfortable voting for him.

Of course since he obviously does have the resume and was NOT proven to have used steroids that could make it a little dicier. I guess they could use the excuse that he was convicted of lying to congress if they wanted to.

whoman69
06-19-2012, 06:16 PM
Bonds. He will be eligible before Clemens.

Clemens is eligible next year. Bonds never officially retired, but may retroactively retire if that is allowed.

Rain Man
06-19-2012, 06:36 PM
If the eliminate all the steroid users, we'll end up with busts of Brodie Croyle and Todd Pinkston in Canton.

KC_Connection
06-19-2012, 06:47 PM
Yes, but not an eliminating factor.

Name me an old-school Hall of Famer from the '30s on who you can reasonably say WASN'T using amphetamines. You can't.

Baseball players have been taking things to improve bodily performance for the entire history of the game. Players will always be looking to whatever they can get away with to get an edge.
All of this, except I don't see any good reason for it to be a factor at all (especially with players like Clemens and Bonds who are clearly among the best players of all time).

I can't say I've ever cared about baseball players wanting to use PEDs to improve their chances of success at this sport. As for the HOF, if you're going to keep out all steroid users (which include some of the best players in baseball history), you'll also have to take out all the amphetamine users from the past, too. And that's a long, long list.

cosmo20002
06-19-2012, 06:51 PM
Bonds will get in because the writers don't want to be called racists.

That is a bizarre opinion.

KC_Connection
06-19-2012, 06:53 PM
There was an interesting argument on Dan Patrick this morning. He essentially torpedoes the argument that players like Bonds and Clemens were HOF worthy before they started taking. He said that if you're worthy, you don't cheat. Pretty convincing argument IMO.

In what world is keeping up with your competition by taking drugs that weren't against the rules "cheating?"

The only thing Bonds and Clemens are guilty of is being that much better than everyone else while taking the same drugs. They shouldn't be punished for that.

cosmo20002
06-19-2012, 07:02 PM
In what world is keeping up with your competition by taking drugs that weren't against the rules "cheating?"

The only thing Bonds and Clemens are guilty of is being that much better than everyone else while taking the same drugs. They shouldn't be punished for that.

They were against the rules. Illegal use of controlled substances was against the rules.

And Clemens I don't believe has ever been convicted of nor admitted steroid use. Bonds has admitted use.

thurman merman
06-19-2012, 07:07 PM
It's called the Hall of FAME. Not the Hall of Good Citizens.

Barry Bonds is famous. He should be in the Hall of Fame.

beach tribe
06-19-2012, 11:27 PM
Steroids or not, those people still went out and did what they did against others using the same shit.

Steroids obviously do not help out pitchers quite as much as they help out batters. There are some players out there who absolutely would have not made it into the HOF without them, and they are mostly the ones who didn't get caught. Clemons would have gotten into the Hall without Steroids.

beach tribe
06-19-2012, 11:30 PM
It's called the Hall of FAME. Not the Hall of Good Citizens.

Barry Bonds is famous. He should be in the Hall of Fame.
Bonds is another guy who would have gotten into the Hall either way. His #s wouldn't have been so gaudy, and he wouldn't hold the records (Maris , and Aaron would actually still have em') but to exclude him from the hall would be ridiculous IMO.

blaise
06-20-2012, 04:50 AM
That is a bizarre opinion.

It's a realistic one, in my opinion.

blaise
06-20-2012, 04:51 AM
It's called the Hall of FAME. Not the Hall of Good Citizens.

Barry Bonds is famous. He should be in the Hall of Fame.

The Baseball Hall of Fame states that voters should take character into account.

whoman69
06-20-2012, 01:08 PM
In what world is keeping up with your competition by taking drugs that weren't against the rules "cheating?"

The only thing Bonds and Clemens are guilty of is being that much better than everyone else while taking the same drugs. They shouldn't be punished for that.

They were against the rules. Illegal use of controlled substances was against the rules.

And Clemens I don't believe has ever been convicted of nor admitted steroid use. Bonds has admitted use.

The union certainly did the players no favors by being opposed to testing all those years. The only thing its done is to cloud everyone who played in that era, even those who never took them. They were against the rules but with no way to actually catch someone short of being caught in the act. The guys that made a ton of money with steroids are praising Donald Fehr. The rest probably hate his guts.

whoman69
06-20-2012, 04:12 PM
They were against the rules. Illegal use of controlled substances was against the rules.

And Clemens I don't believe has ever been convicted of nor admitted steroid use. Bonds has admitted use.

You're being very diplomatic saying that Bonds has admitted use. He admitted to using a cream, but nothing else.