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healthpellets
06-19-2012, 07:33 PM
And here we go again...

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2012/06/19/discrimination/

In 2009, a student at Eastern Michigan University named Julea Ward was expelled from her graduate studies program. She was removed from the program because she refused to counsel a suicidal gay student. The reason, if you havenít already guessed, is because she is a ĎChristian.í To be clear:

Julea Ward, while seeking certification from a state university, refused to apply her training to a fellow student (a requirement for certification), even though his life was at stake.

Or:

Julea Ward turned away a person crying out for help, because she is an adherent to the teachings of Jesus Christ.

Either way you look at it, it seems like a huge failing. And we would all agree that something needed to be done to prevent this kind of potential tragedy from ever happening again. The Michigan House of Representatives have addressed the problemÖBy passing a bill making it illegal to:

ďdiscipline or discriminate against a student in a counseling, social work, or psychology program because the student refuses to counsel or serve a client as to goals, outcomes, or behaviors that conflict with a sincerely held religious belief.Ē

Yes, thatís right. They went pro-intolerance. Itís called the ďJulea Ward freedom of conscience actĎ,Ē and if it passes, it sets some very interesting precedences:

It would create an anti-discrimination law that permits discrimination. More troubling is that it awards priority to the protection an Ďideaí over the protection of the needs of an Ďindividual.í

It would prevent learning institutions from disqualifying students from certification when the student holds beliefs that make them unwilling or unable to satisfactorily complete their training. Obviously it also allows them to ply a trade they are unwilling or unable to hold. A critical trade, where lives hang in the balance.

Both of these are unacceptable, and both translate to real damage to American citizens, if allowed. This is the face of theocracy. How can you tell? Apply the Ďrulesí that this bill sets in place to anything other than religion. For instance:

If it is my sincerely held belief that I do not need glasses, should the Department of Motor Vehicles be required to give me a license, even if I refuse an eye exam?

What if I sincerely believe that unrefrigerated seafood is safe to eat months after being cooked. Do Health Inspectors have any right to keep me from selling my wares to the public?

It is my belief that most of the buttons, controls and safety equipment on commercial aircraft are just for show. You got a problem with that, FAA?
Of course all of these scenarios are ludicrous. But to an awful lot of us, so are religious beliefs. Itís not discrimination to refuse to allow someone to be surgeon if they canít stand the sight of blood. In the United States you have the right to become anything you are able to become, you donít necessarily have the right to just decide you are that thing.

If your Ďsincerely held beliefsí make it impossible for you to dispense birth control, that means your beliefs prevent you from being a pharmacist Ė because that is part of the job. If your job training requires you to show empathy for people in crisis, but your beliefs prevent you from being empathetic, you are not qualified to hold the job you seek. You may not work in that field.

You may not be told you may not hold your beliefs, you may not be told you may not hold a particular job. You certainly can be told that your beliefs prevent you from effectively doing a job. Thatís not discrimination. Thatís logic.

Believe it or not.

InChiefsHell
06-19-2012, 07:40 PM
performing abortions is part of the medical field, and I'd bet any doctor knows how to get it done. Do they all have to perform them, even if it's against their firmly held beliefs? How about perform vasectomies? Your brand of freedom sucks ass.

There are plenty of people who will dispense any legal medication including birth control. People are not having it with-held. So it's not like it's unavailable. Some people have a problem with it and don't wish to dispense it. Why should they have to?

Liberals freak about a bunch of non-problems because people don't believe they way they do. Get over it.

Your extreme left wing source is annoying as hell. Sounds like a self righteous whiner. No credibility.

La literatura
06-19-2012, 07:46 PM
Julea Ward made a horrible mistake, and deserves no degree from the school.

healthpellets
06-19-2012, 07:50 PM
Liberals freak about a bunch of non-problems because people don't believe they way they do. Get over it.



kinda like right wingers about guns, "religious freedom", and big brother?

BigMeatballDave
06-19-2012, 07:51 PM
If she were a true Christian, she would not judge that individual and help them thru their trying time.

cosmo20002
06-19-2012, 07:54 PM
She's a bigot, the school's a bigot, everyone involved is a bigot.

/ Austin

Brock
06-19-2012, 09:02 PM
performing abortions is part of the medical field, and I'd bet any doctor knows how to get it done. Do they all have to perform them, even if it's against their firmly held beliefs? How about perform vasectomies? Your brand of freedom sucks ass.

There are plenty of people who will dispense any legal medication including birth control. People are not having it with-held. So it's not like it's unavailable. Some people have a problem with it and don't wish to dispense it. Why should they have to?.

You're comparing abortion to having to talk to a gay person?

Wow.

AustinChief
06-19-2012, 09:15 PM
She's a bigot, the school's a bigot, everyone involved is a bigot.

/ Austin

Nope, just you. Well actually an argument could be made that she's a bigot. She's just like you Cosmo! I bet she'd like to see gay rights charities get their tax exempt status revoked!

InChiefsHell
06-20-2012, 05:59 AM
You're comparing abortion to having to talk to a gay person?

Wow.

I was responding to the bolded part of the OP. Of course, you wouldn't notice that.

Regarding the not talking to a gay person, I agree, if she were really living her Christian morals she would talk to and counsel the gay person. It could be though, just maybe, that her counsel would include a condemning viewpoint on the person's sexuality, and as such she was not an appropriate counselor for that person.

But, just keep assuming religious people are evil.

mikey23545
06-20-2012, 06:03 AM
You're comparing abortion to having to talk to a gay person?

Wow.

Sounds like he was comparing one kind of medical treatment to another.

Glad to see you jumped into the fray with no preconceived notions.

InChiefsHell
06-20-2012, 06:03 AM
kinda like right wingers about guns, "religious freedom", and big brother?

Nope, not the same. Gun rights are indeed under attack, as are religious freedoms.

Nobody is taking away birth control or counseling for gays or murderous abortions. Yay for you!

RNR
06-20-2012, 07:10 AM
Julea Ward made a horrible mistake, and deserves no degree from the school.

Agreed~

Cave Johnson
06-20-2012, 07:15 AM
Nope, not the same. Gun rights are indeed under attack, as are religious freedoms.

Nobody is taking away birth control or counseling for gays or murderous abortions. Yay for you!

Literally nothing you said was correct. Kudos for being impossibly wrong.

Garcia Bronco
06-20-2012, 08:23 AM
If she were a true Christian, she would not judge that individual and help them thru their trying time.

This. Not helping is a sin. A proper Christian would know that or get another kind of help.

Saul Good
06-20-2012, 08:35 AM
performing abortions is part of the medical field, and I'd bet any doctor knows how to get it done. Do they all have to perform them, even if it's against their firmly held beliefs? How about perform vasectomies? Your brand of freedom sucks ass.

There are plenty of people who will dispense any legal medication including birth control. People are not having it with-held. So it's not like it's unavailable. Some people have a problem with it and don't wish to dispense it. Why should they have to?

Liberals freak about a bunch of non-problems because people don't believe they way they do. Get over it.

Your extreme left wing source is annoying as hell. Sounds like a self righteous whiner. No credibility.
This is correct.
Julea Ward made a horrible mistake, and deserves no degree from the school.

This it's also correct.

HonestChieffan
06-20-2012, 08:35 AM
Julea Ward made a horrible mistake, and deserves no degree from the school.

Why? She did her studies, successfully completed the course work. The School could fail her for not passing or for any number of reasons but just because she has a religious view that the school, who ever that is, disagrees with? Institutionalized intolerance? If you go to XYZ University do we need to agree to the Universities definition of what is tolerated and what is not?

You say some really stupid things but this is right up there at the top.

After her graduation then a professional society or licensing body may have a shot and not giving her accreditation. But the University was way out of line. And even then, if she were to go to work for a faith based organization in her professional field, then she would deserve the degree she earned.

KC native
06-20-2012, 10:02 AM
Heh, this hits home. Wifey is working on a masters in psychology and this topic came up in her class. There were people in there who said the same thing as this craz bitch.

Seriously, how the fuck are you going to be a counselor if you refuse to work with someone because of your intolerance?

Oh and inb4 psuedo-shrink says this is acceptable.

KC native
06-20-2012, 10:06 AM
Why? She did her studies, successfully completed the course work. The School could fail her for not passing or for any number of reasons but just because she has a religious view that the school, who ever that is, disagrees with? Institutionalized intolerance? If you go to XYZ University do we need to agree to the Universities definition of what is tolerated and what is not?

You say some really stupid things but this is right up there at the top.

After her graduation then a professional society or licensing body may have a shot and not giving her accreditation. But the University was way out of line. And even then, if she were to go to work for a faith based organization in her professional field, then she would deserve the degree she earned.

You are fucking stupid. She didn't complete the coursework because she refused to counsel that student.

Brock
06-20-2012, 10:07 AM
I was responding to the bolded part of the OP. Of course, you wouldn't notice that..

I wouldn't have noticed that because you posted a comment without quoting the part you responded to. If you're going to make a general comment, you should be prepared for it to be taken in a general sense.

Brock
06-20-2012, 10:08 AM
Sounds like he was comparing one kind of medical treatment to another.

Glad to see you jumped into the fray with no preconceived notions.


Right. Abortion : Counseling a gay person. Which is what I said, dumbbell.

Chiefnj2
06-20-2012, 10:10 AM
Which verse of the bible says Christians are not allowed to speak with homosexuals?

KC native
06-20-2012, 10:15 AM
Which verse of the bible says Christians are not allowed to speak with homosexuals?

Tebow 20:12

cosmo20002
06-20-2012, 10:21 AM
One thing I'm sure of is that she did not learn this from attending a tax-exempt church. All they do is give money to poor people.

patteeu
06-20-2012, 12:33 PM
Heh, this hits home. Wifey is working on a masters in psychology and this topic came up in her class. There were people in there who said the same thing as this craz bitch.

Seriously, how the **** are you going to be a counselor if you refuse to work with someone because of your intolerance?

Oh and inb4 psuedo-shrink says this is acceptable.

There's absolutely no reason why you have to be willing to work with all comers to be a good therapist.

FishingRod
06-20-2012, 01:03 PM
[QUOTE=InChiefsHell;8689479] Some people have a problem with it and don't wish to dispense it. Why should they have to?
QUOTE]

Just to play devilís advocate. Should a Christian Scientist that is pharmacist be allowed to refuse to dispense any medicine or one that is a postal employee be allowed to refuse to deliver medicine? While people are certainly entitled to their personal religious beliefs is it also not reasonable to expect to be fired from a job should those beliefs make you incapable of performing that job?

patteeu
06-20-2012, 01:33 PM
Some people have a problem with it and don't wish to dispense it. Why should they have to?


Just to play devil’s advocate. Should a Christian Scientist that is pharmacist be allowed to refuse to dispense any medicine or one that is a postal employee be allowed to refuse to deliver medicine? While people are certainly entitled to their personal religious beliefs is it also not reasonable to expect to be fired from a job should those beliefs make you incapable of performing that job?

The postal employee is different because he works for the US government. The pharmacist should be able to refuse as long as he's working for himself or for a like-minded pharmacy owner, IMO.

FishingRod
06-20-2012, 01:44 PM
The postal employee is different because he works for the US government. The pharmacist should be able to refuse as long as he's working for himself or for a like-minded pharmacy owner, IMO.

I donít really disagree but, would you agree that it should be ok for an un-likeminded owner to refuse to hire or fire a person that refuses to do what said boss considers to be a necessary part of the job? I mean I donít want to own a BBQ and be forced to hire an Islamic or Jewish person than canít/wonít move the pulled pork.

vailpass
06-20-2012, 01:53 PM
She's a bigot, the school's a bigot, everyone involved is a bigot.

/ Austin

What's wrong brother man? You a little sore over AustinChief owning your sorry ass up and down the board?

vailpass
06-20-2012, 01:54 PM
You're comparing abortion to having to talk to a gay person?

Wow.

Oh for fuck sake.

vailpass
06-20-2012, 01:57 PM
Heh, this hits home. Wifey is working on a masters in psychology and this topic came up in her class. There were people in there who said the same thing as this craz bitch.

Seriously, how the **** are you going to be a counselor if you refuse to work with someone because of your intolerance?

Oh and inb4 psuedo-shrink says this is acceptable.

During the initial intake session counselors determine if they can work with the patient and vice-versa. I understand that it is rather common for a counselor to decline to work with a patient in the case where there is a potential personal, ethical or religious conflict. What was your wife's professor's take on this if you don't mind me asking?

patteeu
06-20-2012, 01:59 PM
I donít really disagree but, would you agree that it should be ok for an un-likeminded owner to refuse to hire or fire a person that refuses to do what said boss considers to be a necessary part of the job? I mean I donít want to own a BBQ and be forced to hire an Islamic or Jewish person than canít/wonít move the pulled pork.

Yes, I'd definitely agree with that.

InChiefsHell
06-20-2012, 02:52 PM
I donít really disagree but, would you agree that it should be ok for an un-likeminded owner to refuse to hire or fire a person that refuses to do what said boss considers to be a necessary part of the job? I mean I donít want to own a BBQ and be forced to hire an Islamic or Jewish person than canít/wonít move the pulled pork.


Totally agree. That's what I'm getting at. There are other providers who will take care of people for whom they are better equipped to counsel. This woman has a problem with homosexuality. Ergo, she was not a proper counselor and recused herself, the evil bitch...:rolleyes:

KC native
06-20-2012, 08:06 PM
During the initial intake session counselors determine if they can work with the patient and vice-versa. I understand that it is rather common for a counselor to decline to work with a patient in the case where there is a potential personal, ethical or religious conflict. What was your wife's professor's take on this if you don't mind me asking?

Not really sure. My wifey likes to run her mouth quite a bit so I kind of zoned out for a good portion of the story.

What I got from it was if it's your private practice, you can choose your clients. There is no obligation to take a client, however outright discriminating against certain groups (different from focusing on type of client like troubled children) is frowned upon.

Wifey explained it to me as a good therapist must be empathetic, but not necessarily sympathetic. Saying you won't work with "the gays" doesn't really demonstrate that you can empathize with people that you may disagree with or find abhorrent in some way. You don't have to approve of their lifestyle or actions to be empathetic.

Also, there is a little bit of background going on here. Programs across the country are under higher scrutiny these days because of mentally unstable people who have completed their programs and have gone on to do harm to clients (people like sportsshrink). There is a big emphasis on working out your issues now as you go through these programs. Refusing to do an assignment because you were assigned a *gasp* GAY, doesn't demonstrate a high level of composure.

KC native
06-20-2012, 08:16 PM
There's absolutely no reason why you have to be willing to work with all comers to be a good therapist.

No you don't, but this wasn't her practice. It was an assignment.

mlyonsd
06-20-2012, 08:52 PM
Was this a gay student with a real or fake issue?

La literatura
06-20-2012, 11:10 PM
Why? She did her studies, successfully completed the course work.

Is that true, though? It seems like she did not complete the course work, because of her refusal to counsel the gay person.

If you go to XYZ University do we need to agree to the Universities definition of what is tolerated and what is not?

Only if you want the XYZ University degree. Getting a degree isn't some universal right that you're entitled to. You have to jump through a lot of different hoops to get it. One of those hoops is pay. Another is showing up and doing what your professors tell you to do so you can pass the courses.

If you think that what your professors are telling you is immoral, then stop. But don't stop and then demand that you deserve the XYZ University degree. Why would you even want that XYZ University degree if the only way you could get it was to do something you felt was immoral?

ClevelandBronco
06-20-2012, 11:24 PM
Why would you even want that XYZ University degree if the only way you could get it was to do something you felt was immoral?

Probably because she's already dumped a shitload of money into it.

I imagine that this therapist will be able to find plenty of sick straight people to counsel.

La literatura
06-20-2012, 11:29 PM
Probably because she's already dumped a shitload of money into it.

I imagine that this therapist will be able to find plenty of sick straight people to counsel.

With a fresh reading of A Man for All Seasons on my mind, I'm not too impressed with this lady's damage claims. Also, I'm sure a school of similar minded beliefs would be willing to work with her in transferring credits.

ClevelandBronco
06-20-2012, 11:41 PM
With a fresh reading of A Man for All Seasons on my mind, I'm not too impressed with this lady's damage claims. Also, I'm sure a school of similar minded beliefs would be willing to work with her in transferring credits.

Maybe because of the notoriety of this particular case. Generally, though, I'd be surprised if institutions that are in the business of selling degrees would be interested in giving one away relatively late in the process to someone who has already spent her money elsewhere.

La literatura
06-20-2012, 11:47 PM
Maybe because of the notoriety of this particular case. Generally, though, I'd be surprised if institutions that are in the business of selling degrees would be interested in giving one away relatively late in the process to someone who has already spent her money elsewhere.

You might be right. What I hope will happen here is that the university and student can find an appropriate way to allow the student to finish her coursework and grant her the degree, but she needs to be willing to show some flexibility if she wants it. I don't think the university needs to amend its standards.

ClevelandBronco
06-21-2012, 12:08 AM
You might be right. What I hope will happen here is that the university and student can find an appropriate way to allow the student to finish her coursework and grant her the degree, but she needs to be willing to show some flexibility if she wants it. I don't think the university needs to amend its standards.

I would have to agree that the university has a right to set whatever standards it deems necessary. The candidate should have done her due diligence first and made a more appropriate choice.

Iz Zat Chew
06-21-2012, 05:05 AM
If she were a true Christian, she would not judge that individual and help them thru their trying time.

Correct.

Iz Zat Chew
06-21-2012, 05:10 AM
You are ****ing stupid. She didn't complete the coursework because she refused to counsel that student.

So one class, one grade and she flunks out of school?

Wrong.

What she did was wrong in more than one way. But the school was wrong in more than one way as well.

mr. tegu
06-21-2012, 03:18 PM
During the initial intake session counselors determine if they can work with the patient and vice-versa. I understand that it is rather common for a counselor to decline to work with a patient in the case where there is a potential personal, ethical or religious conflict. What was your wife's professor's take on this if you don't mind me asking?

This is true and is actually encouraged. You are taught to refer someone out if you believe you cannot help them in the manner that they need.

In this case if the student was suicidal because of his experience with being gay, then this student counselor has every right and even obligation to refer this person to another counselor. Afterall a person that fundamentally disagrees with this lifestyle will be of no help.

That being said, if the student that needed counseling was suicidal for something completely unrelated to his sexuality or they needed counseling for something like bipolar disorder, and the student counselor refused to help him even though his sexuality never came up in conversation and the only reason she knows he is gay is because of an intake form, then a student counselor in that situation really is making a mistake if that is the case. In this hypothetical, if in your own practice you could refer someone out and be nice about it, but this student is likely receiving free counseling from the school and the student counselor should get through it and be better for it.

mr. tegu
06-21-2012, 03:28 PM
Not really sure. My wifey likes to run her mouth quite a bit so I kind of zoned out for a good portion of the story.

What I got from it was if it's your private practice, you can choose your clients. There is no obligation to take a client, however outright discriminating against certain groups (different from focusing on type of client like troubled children) is frowned upon.


Discriminating is generally wrong in all aspects of life. But in this sense with counseling, you are not so much discriminating against gays for example, it is more about recognizing your own deficits with regards to the population. Counselors go by nonmaleficence - first do no harm.

Wifey explained it to me as a good therapist must be empathetic, but not necessarily sympathetic. Saying you won't work with "the gays" doesn't really demonstrate that you can empathize with people that you may disagree with or find abhorrent in some way. You don't have to approve of their lifestyle or actions to be empathetic.


This is kind of accurate. A good counselor does not need to be empathetic, but that depends on the theoretical orientation that you go by, as well as the things you treat. For many counselors though it is essential. To say you don't have to approve of a lifestyle to be empathetic seems to not really be correct. Empathy is the ability to experience the thoughts, emotions, and experiences of others as if they are your own. I don't really think a person can do this if they completely disagree with a person's lifestyle, such as being gay. There is just no way someone could feel that person's feelings if they are that opposed to what makes that person who they are. I suppose that last sentence might just be my opinion, albeit an informed one.

Bump
06-21-2012, 04:46 PM
and this folks is another example of why I hate religion.

vailpass
06-21-2012, 04:50 PM
and this folks is another example of why I hate religion.

What an incredibly intelligent, enlightened outlook. Thank you so much for sharing; we're all better for it.

vailpass
06-21-2012, 04:51 PM
I didn't read the whole OP. Did the homo in question off himself because she wouldn't work with him?

mlyonsd
06-21-2012, 07:07 PM
So if a med school made performing an abortion a mandatory requirement should a student fail if they refuse?

Iz Zat Chew
06-21-2012, 07:12 PM
So if a med school made performing an abortion a mandatory requirement should a student fail if they refuse?

If you listen to some of the garbage being passed off here as legitimate you would believe that.

I wouldn't put it past the school/professor of knowing the belief of the student and put her into a session with a gay for just that reason. I have nothing to back that up, but it seems there is a bit of hubub because of it. A test designed for particular members of the class to fail?

La literatura
06-21-2012, 07:14 PM
So if a med school made performing an abortion a mandatory requirement should a student fail if they refuse?

Not everything, including talking and showing empathy to a gay person, is equivalent to performing an abortion.

mlyonsd
06-21-2012, 07:27 PM
Not everything, including talking and showing empathy to a gay person, is equivalent to performing an abortion.

I totally agree. But where do you draw the line?

From the op I can't tell what she was expected to do. Was this just a classroom exercise or for real? Counsel the gay person or just give empathy? Those are two totally different things. If she was expected to truly counsel the person and she realized her limitations would hinder an objective opinion she did the right thing by refusing.

La literatura
06-21-2012, 07:38 PM
I totally agree. But where do you draw the line?

From the op I can't tell what she was expected to do. Was this just a classroom exercise or for real? Counsel the gay person or just give empathy? Those are two totally different things. If she was expected to truly counsel the person and she realized her limitations would hinder an objective opinion she did the right thing by refusing.

Maybe so, but you don't get the degree then. The university has a duty to maintain high standards. She's not the only person in the program. It's completely reasonable for a program to say that if you are unable to help someone just because of their sexual orientation, then you are undeserving of the distinction of calling yourself a graduate of the program.

mlyonsd
06-21-2012, 07:48 PM
Maybe so, but you don't get the degree then. The university has a duty to maintain high standards. She's not the only person in the program. It's completely reasonable for a program to say that if you are unable to help someone just because of their sexual orientation, then you are undeserving of the distinction of calling yourself a graduate of the program.Our lines are different. Yours is sexual orientation and mine is understanding what one's limitations for a subjective opinion are.

Let me ask, if she had submitted and completed the assignment should she be expected to recuse herself in the same situation in private practice?

La literatura
06-21-2012, 07:58 PM
Our lines are different. Yours is sexual orientation and mine is understanding what one's limitations for a subjective opinion are.

Let me ask, if she had submitted and completed the assignment should she be expected to recuse herself in the same situation in private practice?

I think she would be a horrible counselor, and doing a disservice to people, but she would be on a much stronger line if she recused herself in her own private practice.

The difference here is that she is refusing to complete her assignment, an assignment that the program, in all its wisdom and experience, feels is necessary, and then is demanding that the program give her the reward that comes to those who actually complete the assignment(s).

In her private practice, it would be absurd for her to decline helping the gay person, but then demand that the gay person give her money. But this is similar to what she's asking for here. She wants the reward, without having to do the work.

Iz Zat Chew
06-21-2012, 08:09 PM
Maybe so, but you don't get the degree then. The university has a duty to maintain high standards. She's not the only person in the program. It's completely reasonable for a program to say that if you are unable to help someone just because of their sexual orientation, then you are undeserving of the distinction of calling yourself a graduate of the program.

Again, one class and one section of that class and she doesn't get a degree? Your bias towards gays is worse than those that are biased against.

mlyonsd
06-21-2012, 08:15 PM
I think she would be a horrible counselor, and doing a disservice to people, but she would be on a much stronger line if she recused herself in her own private practice.

The difference here is that she is refusing to complete her assignment, an assignment that the program, in all its wisdom and experience, feels is necessary, and then is demanding that the program give her the reward that comes to those who actually complete the assignment(s).

In her private practice, it would be absurd for her to decline helping the gay person, but then demand that the gay person give her money. But this is similar to what she's asking for here. She wants the reward, without having to do the work.I agree with some of that. I do have a problem though with an institution that expects a student to act differently in school than they would in real employed life. I would also wonder if the school has the patient's best interest in mind by forcing the student to counsel if she doesn't think she is qualified to do it.

The worst of the worst doctors don't realize their own limitations IMO.

mr. tegu
06-21-2012, 08:35 PM
Maybe so, but you don't get the degree then. The university has a duty to maintain high standards. She's not the only person in the program. It's completely reasonable for a program to say that if you are unable to help someone just because of their sexual orientation, then you are undeserving of the distinction of calling yourself a graduate of the program.

If you are unable to help someone because of their orientation you are expected to refer that person out. We don't know enough details about this case to know whether she did the right thing or not. See my above post describing the differences. Pain in the butt to copy and paste on my phone.

mlyonsd
06-21-2012, 08:37 PM
If you are unable to help someone because of their orientation you are expected to refer that person out. We don't know enough details about this case to know whether she did the right thing or not. See my above post describing the differences. Pain in the butt to copy and paste on my phone.Yeah the op sucks and was evidently written to burn her.

mr. tegu
06-21-2012, 08:42 PM
I think she would be a horrible counselor, and doing a disservice to people, but she would be on a much stronger line if she recused herself in her own private practice.

The difference here is that she is refusing to complete her assignment, an assignment that the program, in all its wisdom and experience, feels is necessary, and then is demanding that the program give her the reward that comes to those who actually complete the assignment(s).

In her private practice, it would be absurd for her to decline helping the gay person, but then demand that the gay person give her money. But this is similar to what she's asking for here. She wants the reward, without having to do the work.

Again this is hard to fully discuss because we don't know how this student was brought to her. Typically it is just random with no rhyme or reason as far as forcing a student counselor to help a specific type of case. If she refused him because his sexuality was an intricate part of his presenting issues then she did the right thing. It's irrelevant whether we agree with her beliefs or not. But if she only refused him based on an intake and his sexuality had nothing to do with the issue then she should have tried to help this student especially given he is suicidal.

listopencil
06-23-2012, 08:46 PM
I'd like to take this opportunity to tell Julea Ward to go fuck herself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Turing

ClevelandBronco
06-23-2012, 08:56 PM
I'd like to take this opportunity to tell Julea Ward to go **** herself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Turing

Some queen offs himself in 1954 and... what?

listopencil
06-23-2012, 09:01 PM
Some queen offs himself in 1954 and... what?

Did you actually read the article?

ClevelandBronco
06-23-2012, 09:09 PM
Did you actually read the article?

No, I'm hoping they turn it into a popular song so I don't have to.

Fuck you.

listopencil
06-23-2012, 09:18 PM
No, I'm hoping they turn it into a popular song so I don't have to.

**** you.

Better yet, go fuck yourself. I'm sure you'll have more fun.

ClevelandBronco
06-23-2012, 09:20 PM
Better yet, go **** yourself. I'm sure you'll have more fun.

Sounds faggy.

listopencil
06-23-2012, 09:26 PM
Sounds pillowbitergy.

Only if you really, really enjoy it.

mr. tegu
06-23-2012, 09:46 PM
I'd like to take this opportunity to tell Julea Ward to go **** herself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Turing

From the link:
In an article to mark the 100th anniversary of Turing's birth, the BBC aired the contrary views of Professor of Philosophy Jack Copeland, Director of the Turing Archive for the History of Computing. While questioning various aspects of the coroner's historical verdict, Copeland identified accidental inhalation of cyanide fumes from an apparatus for gold electroplating spoons, which Turing had set up in his tiny spare room (using potassium cyanide to dissolve the gold), as a plausible alternative explanation, noting that the autopsy findings were more consistent with inhalation than with ingestion of the poison.[75] In addition, Turing had reportedly borne his legal setbacks and hormone treatment (which had been discontinued a year previously) "with good humour" and had shown no sign of despondency prior to his death, in fact, setting down a list of tasks he intended to complete upon return to his office after the holiday weekend.[75]

I don't get how this person is relevant.

listopencil
06-23-2012, 10:50 PM
From the link:


I don't get how this person is relevant.

So...you posted the contrary view only, because it suits you. That's nice. I'm not surprised that you don't get it.

mr. tegu
06-23-2012, 11:16 PM
So...you posted the contrary view only, because it suits you. That's nice. I'm not surprised that you don't get it.

I don't even get what you are trying to contradict. This guy possibly committed suicide, but it just happens that the most recent opinion which happens to come from the guy that runs the archive dedicated to Turin believes he didn't. Again how is this guys case relevant to this discussion specifically? And what is my view that this would be contrary?

Edit - Obviously there is some disagreement in the article as to whether Turing committed suicide which cannot be denied. But this was over 50 years ago and obviously the times were much different. More people than just certain Christians opposed his sexuality...You posted this to throw hate at the student counselor but it has no bearing on her case. By posting this are you trying to suggest if he committed suicide it was someone's fault for turning him away? A counselor? Did you not read the article fully? Because if you did it wouldn't make sense to use this example considering it's not certain he committed suicide.