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Frankie
06-20-2012, 01:13 AM
Or are we (the CP football geniuses) missing something?!...

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/06/02/secret-superstar-tyson-jackson-and-glenn-dorsey-des-kansas-city-chiefs/

Secret Superstar: Tyson Jackson and Glenn Dorsey, DEs, Kansas City Chiefs


Author: Sam Monson

(If repost, kiss my ass.)

It’s not often you’ll get somebody trying to tell you that a pair of Top 5 draft picks are a secret, but that’s exactly what I’m going to do in this article. Most people, and even some Chiefs fans, will tell you that both Tyson Jackson and Glenn Dorsey have been colossal failures. They have been, at best, mediocre players when nothing less than studs would have been acceptable for such a huge outlay in the draft, but the truth is a little more complex than that.

When most teams look to the defensive line at the top of the draft, they’re searching for impact pass rushers; guys that can rack-up sacks and bring the heat on opposing quarterbacks. The Chiefs’ defensive scheme isn’t quite like that, and what they want from their linemen is stout play against the run. They’ve found exactly that from these two players, but people are so fixated on their failures in terms of pass rushing that nobody seems to have noticed.




A Different Thought Process

The biggest reason people perceive Glenn Dorsey as a failure is the disconnect between the reputation and skillset people saw him having when he was a prospect coming out of LSU and the player he has actually turned out to be in the NFL. Dorsey was supposed to be the next great 3-technique defensive tackle. He was seen as a stud upfield, penetrating interior presence that could create pressure, generate sacks, and disrupt an offense. In short, he was supposed to be the new Warren Sapp or Kevin Williams. So when he notched just a solitary sack as a rookie, and only seven more total pressures despite 419 passing snaps, the prevailing wisdom was that he had a terrible rookie season. Of course, it could also be that the initial perception was just off to begin with. In 30 career starts at LSU, Dorsey notched just 15 sacks.

So far Dorsey has recorded only four career sacks in four seasons as a Chief, which is enough for most to want to run him right out of town. All the negativity surrounding his pass rush overshadows the work he has done as a run defender. Pass rushing is easily the more glamorous aspect of defensive line play, and has ready-made statistics for people to point to as proof of performance. Often, play against the run comes with no such stat. As a rookie, he defended the run well, and with the exception of a slump in his second season, has graded increasingly well in that area.

Tyson Jackson was likewise thrust into unrealistic expectations when he was selected third overall, but after two career sacks in three seasons, he is held by many right there alongside Dorsey as a failed pick and a disappointment. Jackson struggled much more than Dorsey early on, grading abysmally as a rookie in all areas with a -40.9 overall mark. However, in his second season he was above average as a run defender and last season he had completed a similar improvement as his teammate, with a +10.0 grade against the run.



Kansas City’s Scheme

The Chiefs have been running a 3-4 scheme for the entirety of Jackson’s NFL career, and three of Dorsey’s four seasons, first under defensive coordinator Clancy Pendergast, and then under Romeo Crennel as both DC and now head coach. While much of the league has been trending toward penetrating, aggressive defensive fronts, with more 3-4 defenses playing one-gap fronts, the Chiefs have maintained an old-school two-gap defense. This won’t surprise anybody who watched the way the Patriots played defense under Crennel, but it does swim against the stream in terms of how the rest of the league has been playing. The Patriots used to have big, stout two-gapping defensive linemen and then relied on the linebackers behind them to make plays, and the Chiefs today have been doing a pretty good job of emulating that defense.

New England had Ty Warren, who was for years one of the best run-stuffing 3-4 DEs as the lynchpin of that defense. It allowed their linebackers to make a name for themselves because they rarely had to deal with bodies coming at them. The Chiefs have been trying to get that kind of play from Dorsey and Jackson, and recently it has been working. As such, you have seen Pro-Bowl caliber seasons from Tamba Hali, Derrick Johnson, as well as impressive and promising performances from Justin Houston. Though often lost in coverage, even Jovan Belcher has been able to string together consistently strong play against the run because of the play in front of him.

It may not be the kind of play most people want to see from their high draft picks, but the Chiefs evidently value the ability to play a disciplined two-gap defense, and in that regard they seem to have done well in identifying players who can excel in one.



The Numbers and the Future

While it is often true that play against the run comes with no easy statistic to point to as proof of quality play, especially for players expected to maintain two gaps, there are stats Pro Football Focus keeps that the mainstream does not have access to. The problem with just looking at tackles, is that you have no way of knowing if that tackle came in the backfield for a loss, or 10 yards downfield after you were blown off the ball. In addition to tackles, we record defensive stops–tackles for an offensive failure on the play–and looking at those stops collected on run plays, Jackson and Dorsey each accounted for more than any other 3-4 end … including All-World stud, Justin Smith. Jackson tallied 38 while Dorsey earned 32 himself as they led the NFL at their position, and Jackson also led the league in Run Stop frequency.

The Chiefs completed their defensive line with a third first round pick in this year’s draft in the shape of Dontari Poe from Memphis. If they have managed to identify another player of similar run-stuffing ability, their D is well on its way to being an extremely formidable unit. Though neither Glenn Dorsey nor Tyson Jackson will ever be redeemed in the eyes of some people who care only about the sack stats, they have developed into two of the best run-stuffing defensive linemen in the NFL. That is why they are Kansas City’s Secret Superstars.

jd1020
06-20-2012, 01:32 AM
I just skimmed through it but I don't see anything in there that's beyond what is said on here about those 2.

Cornstock
06-20-2012, 01:35 AM
Theres nothing objectionable here. I feel that it is the consensus of CP that Jackson and Dorsey are adequate in stopping the run. It is recognized that we don't ask them to rush the QB because in the particular 3-4 defense we play that comes from the OLB position. In pass scenarios, the DEs make the OLB's job easier by pushing the pocket. Having a NG that can help push the pocket will make our OLBs look even better than last year.

jd1020
06-20-2012, 01:37 AM
Theres nothing objectionable here. I feel that it is the consensus of CP that Jackson and Dorsey are adequate in stopping the run. It is recognized that we don't ask them to rush the QB because in the particular 3-4 defense we play that comes from the OLB position. In pass scenarios, the DEs make the OLB's job easier by pushing the pocket. Having a NG that can help push the pocket will make our OLBs look even better than last year.

This is where Dorsey falls flat on his face. He simply doesn't push shit.

BigMeatballDave
06-20-2012, 01:38 AM
Did someone pay you to re-post it?

:)

jspchief
06-20-2012, 01:40 AM
Pimping Dorsey in a contract year? Not Pioli.

Hog Farmer
06-20-2012, 03:45 AM
I guess someone needs to step up and kiss Frankies ass because this is definitely a


REPOST !

Frankie
06-20-2012, 08:58 AM
I just skimmed through it but I don't see anything in there that's beyond what is said on here about those 2.

Theres nothing objectionable here. I feel that it is the consensus of CP that Jackson and Dorsey are adequate in stopping the run. It is recognized that we don't ask them to rush the QB because in the particular 3-4 defense we play that comes from the OLB position. In pass scenarios, the DEs make the OLB's job easier by pushing the pocket. Having a NG that can help push the pocket will make our OLBs look even better than last year.

Adequate is a long way from "Superstars." We never call them THAT here.

Frankie
06-20-2012, 09:02 AM
Pimping Dorsey in a contract year? Not Pioli.True. He didn't even draft him. I forgot.

I guess someone needs to step up and kiss Frankies ass because this is definitely a


REPOST !

ROFL My ass is available to public kissing between the hours of 2 and 4 pm today. Future time and venue will be announced shortly.

Count Alex's Wins
06-20-2012, 09:56 AM
repost

jd1020
06-20-2012, 09:58 AM
ROFL My ass is available to public kissing between the hours of 2 and 4 pm today. Future time and venue will be announced shortly.

repost

First customer.

Hog Farmer
06-20-2012, 10:44 AM
ROFL

Count Alex's Wins
06-20-2012, 10:45 AM
And no, Pioli didn't pay anyone to write that.

It's very grounded in reality.

TJ and Dorsey are very good against the run.

King_Chief_Fan
06-20-2012, 10:52 AM
Looks like a post whore at work to me

Frankie
06-20-2012, 10:57 AM
Looks like a post whore at work to me

Dude, you just called the CP a whore house.

Rausch
06-20-2012, 11:08 AM
And no, Pioli didn't pay anyone to write that.

It's very grounded in reality.

TJ and Dorsey are very good against the run.

It's not that they aren't good. They are.

They're good.

Problem is they were drafted and are being paid to be fucking Sap and Bruce Smith.

It amazes me that the top 10 was too high to take a G (Decastro) but we can take a 3-4 DE in the top 5...:shake:

milkman
06-20-2012, 11:12 AM
It's not that they aren't good. They are.

They're good.

Problem is they were drafted and are being paid to be ****ing Sap and Bruce Smith.

It amazes me that the top 10 was too high to take a G (Decastro) but we can take a 3-4 DE in the top 5...:shake:

In case you didn't notice, most if us that would have been pissed if we drafted DeCastro were also the ones that weren't happy that we drafted a 5 tech #3 overall.

Dorsey wasn't drafted to be a 5 tech, so he doesn't apply.

Rausch
06-20-2012, 11:21 AM
In case you didn't notice, most if us that would have been pissed if we drafted DeCastro were also the ones that weren't happy that we drafted a 5 tech #3 overall.

I'm not angry over the fan-logic. It's the organization's mentality/draft day value I have a problem with.

Dorsey wasn't drafted to be a 5 tech, so he doesn't apply.

He does.

His talents are being wasted. He was drafted to play in a Cover 2 4-3 scheme (which I think he'd be a beast in) and then we went 3-4 and now he's a genius pianist who's doing weddings.

The best thing (for us and him) would be to trade him and use a 2nd or 3rd to replace him for much less...

milkman
06-20-2012, 11:29 AM
I'm not angry over the fan-logic. It's the organization's mentality/draft day value I have a problem with.

I don't think their logic applies here.

I think they took a player who filled a position of bigger need.
If Poe wasn't on the board, I have little doubt that they would have taken DeCastro.
I wasn't going to be happy with either decision.

He does.

His talents are being wasted. He was drafted to play in a Cover 2 4-3 scheme (which I think he'd be a beast in) and then we went 3-4 and now he's a genius pianist who's doing weddings.

The best thing (for us and him) would be to trade him and use a 2nd or 3rd to replace him for much less...

If we were running this same sstem when Dorsey was drafted, I would have been pissed with the pick.

That's why he doesn't apply.

We are talking about how the picks were perceived at the time they were picked.

Count Alex's Wins
06-20-2012, 11:30 AM
His talents are being wasted. He was drafted to play in a Cover 2 4-3 scheme (which I think he'd be a beast in) and then we went 3-4 and now he's a genius pianist who's doing weddings.


They're not.

He's good at 2-gapping.

He's 2-gapping.

The idea he was ever going to be some kind of great, or even good, pass rusher is a myth.

Ace Gunner
06-20-2012, 11:32 AM
Dorsey and TJ have been okay at stopping the run. TJ improved last season, Dorsey did not, not significantly imo.

Last season the Chiefs were ranked 29th against attempts (which I think means teams didn't run that often on them), 26th in run yards against them and 20th in running TD's allowed.

That is not very good.

We can say it was the NT's fault, but that would be stupid to say imo because Kelly Gregg and Gordon did a decent job in the middle, at least as decent as the two ends did. Nobody got push/penetration with any kind of consistency during passing downs and that was part of the reason Tamba Hali was not as good/better than 2011's stellar performance.

I'm sure the staff is going with Poe at DE during passing downs this season. Pairing Tamba with Poe at RDE on that weakside is going to create some problems for offenses, I bet. Mix in Gordon at NT with Bailey at LDE and LOLB Houston next to Bailey, I believe they could develop something like a pass rush by november.

Rausch
06-20-2012, 11:37 AM
The idea he was ever going to be some kind of great, or even good, pass rusher is a myth.

It's why he was drafted.

It's not a myth. The fact that he had to change schemes means that his strengths are no longer what he's asked to do.

Rausch
06-20-2012, 11:40 AM
If we were running this same sstem when Dorsey was drafted, I would have been pissed with the pick.

That's why he doesn't apply.

We are talking about how the picks were perceived at the time they were picked.

At the time it was a very good pick. And I still think he's a very good player.

I would say it's similar to giving Kurt Warner a huge contract and then in his second year we bring in an OC that installs the WCO and tells him to dink and dunk 5 yards at a time. It would be a waste...

Count Alex's Wins
06-20-2012, 11:48 AM
It's why he was drafted.

It's not a myth. The fact that he had to change schemes means that his strengths are no longer what he's asked to do.

He has never shown an ability to be a pass rusher in the NFL. Period. Never.

Didn't show it as a rookie. In his second year, he tried to 3-tech in the nickel, frequently. Sucked at it. He no longer plays in the nickel.

Dorsey as some kind of dominant pass rusher is a myth. He was never, ever going to be Warren Sapp.

milkman
06-20-2012, 11:52 AM
He has never shown an ability to be a pass rusher in the NFL. Period. Never.

Didn't show it as a rookie. In his second year, he tried to 3-tech in the nickel, frequently. Sucked at it. He no longer plays in the nickel.

Dorsey as some kind of dominant pass rusher is a myth. He was never, ever going to be Warren Sapp.

Actually, as the article itself points out, he also wasn't a pass rusher in college.

He had a knack for penetration against the run, blowing up plays at the LOS.

That's why he was drafted so high, and he is essentially doing exactl that now.

BossChief
06-20-2012, 12:34 PM
Has Frankie ever started a thread that wasnt

A) borderline retarded

B) a repost

?

Count Alex's Wins
06-20-2012, 12:38 PM
Has Frankie ever started a thread that wasnt

A) borderline retarded

B) a repost

?

Give him credit, he's not as bad as Pete.

BossChief
06-20-2012, 12:43 PM
Actually, as the article itself points out, he also wasn't a pass rusher in college.

He had a knack for penetration against the run, blowing up plays at the LOS.

That's why he was drafted so high, and he is essentially doing exactl that now.

Glenn had 7 sacks in his last year at LSU.

whoman69
06-20-2012, 02:26 PM
And no, Pioli didn't pay anyone to write that.

It's very grounded in reality.

TJ and Dorsey are very good against the run.

Really. The Chiefs ranked 26th against the run. TJ and Dorsey are nearly invisible against the pass. Don't just pretend they're out there for run plays.

Frankie
06-20-2012, 02:31 PM
Has Frankie ever started a thread that wasnt

A) borderline retarded

B) a repost

?

Two ordinary DEs are called superstars in an article. I bring it up for a discussion in a football forum. It's "borderline retarded." Just because I don't put a negative brand on your posts does not mean all of your posts are smart. Someone needs to take his head out of his ass. :spock:

And as for 'repost,' I have not contested that being that the article is a couple of weeks old. But I count 6 other people posting here as if it's a new subject. So, repost jerks, please STFU or post the original thread about this article.

Count Alex's Wins
06-20-2012, 02:38 PM
You're reading too much into the title.

O.city
06-20-2012, 04:11 PM
Dorsey and TJ have been okay at stopping the run. TJ improved last season, Dorsey did not, not significantly imo.

Last season the Chiefs were ranked 29th against attempts (which I think means teams didn't run that often on them), 26th in run yards against them and 20th in running TD's allowed.

That is not very good.

We can say it was the NT's fault, but that would be stupid to say imo because Kelly Gregg and Gordon did a decent job in the middle, at least as decent as the two ends did. Nobody got push/penetration with any kind of consistency during passing downs and that was part of the reason Tamba Hali was not as good/better than 2011's stellar performance.

I'm sure the staff is going with Poe at DE during passing downs this season. Pairing Tamba with Poe at RDE on that weakside is going to create some problems for offenses, I bet. Mix in Gordon at NT with Bailey at LDE and LOLB Houston next to Bailey, I believe they could develop something like a pass rush by november.

Poe will not play DE this year. He is a NT.

BossChief
06-20-2012, 04:23 PM
Poe will not play DE this year. He is a NT.

Key words in this statement are "this year"

Tyson is due like 15 million next year and Dorsey is gonna be a fa.

One of the two is probably long gone and there is a real chance that both are.

O.city
06-20-2012, 04:29 PM
Key words in this statement are "this year"

Tyson is due like 15 million next year and Dorsey is gonna be a fa.

One of the two is probably long gone and there is a real chance that both are.

Jackson will be restructured, not sure what they will do about Dorsey.


Jackson is the prototypical DE for this d, they surely will keep him around.

BossChief
06-20-2012, 04:36 PM
They already restructured Tyson to take off one year.

Hopefully, there was a method to that madness.

whoman69
06-20-2012, 04:55 PM
They already restructured Tyson to take off one year.

Hopefully, there was a method to that madness.

I would guess short term they have to meet the cap minimum. I also believe if they restructure, there is only so much of a pay cut he can take. Give the guy a short term bump in exchange for the fact he won't be getting the money on his contract for the coming year. Though depending on a signing bonus, he won't be hurting.

Count Alex's Wins
06-20-2012, 04:56 PM
Key words in this statement are "this year"

Tyson is due like 15 million next year and Dorsey is gonna be a fa.

One of the two is probably long gone and there is a real chance that both are.

Gonna be funny when Pioli and his failed 3-4 DE get shipped outta town together.

whoman69
06-20-2012, 04:56 PM
Poe will not play DE this year. He is a NT.

He will also be one of the two lineman on passing sets. Not sure what you call that position.

BossChief
06-20-2012, 05:05 PM
Gonna be funny when Pioli and his failed 3-4 DE get shipped outta town together.

Haha

It's gonna suck not being able to read your reactions to Piolis extension.

Let me also say this:

If Pioli is fired, it will be a foolish move.

His ONLY failing is Cassel a d if he doesn't step up, he won't be the qb after the bye.

Just watch.