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qabbaan
06-21-2012, 08:50 AM
Fast and Furious scandal is turning into President Obama's Watergate

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/timstanley/100166854/the-fast-and-furious-scandal-is-turning-into-president-obamas-watergate/

Obama is repeating many of the mistakes that led to Nixon's resignation in 1974


Fast and furious hasn’t been discussed a lot in the mainstream media,
which is why the facts can seem so preposterous when you read them for
the first time. But the story is slowly unraveling and the public is
catching up with the madness. On Wednesday, the The House Oversight
and Government Reform Committee voted to hold Attorney General Eric
Holder in contempt over his decision to withhold documents related to
the "gun walking" operation - documents that President Obama tried to
keep secret by invoking executive privilege. The question of why the
Prez intervened in this way will surely hang over the investigation
and the White House for many months to come.

Be patient, conservatives. It took nearly eight months for the
Watergate break in to become a national news story. But when it
finally did, it toppled a President.

Here’s what Fast and Furious is all about - and for the uninitiated,
be prepared for a shock. In 2009, the US government instructed Arizona
gun sellers illegally to sell arms to suspected criminals. Agents
working for the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives
(ATF) were then ordered not to stop the sales but to allow the arms to
"walk" across the border into the arms of Mexican drug-traffickers.
According to the Oversight Committee’s report, "The purpose was to
wait and watch, in hope that law enforcement could identify other
members of a trafficking network and build a large, complex conspiracy
case…. [The ATF] initially began using the new gun-walking tactics in
one of its investigations to further the Department’s strategy. The
case was soon renamed ‘Operation Fast and Furious."

Tracing the arms became difficult, until they starting appearing at
bloody crime scenes. Many Mexicans have died from being shot by ATF
sanctioned guns, but the scandal only became public after a US federal
agent, Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry, was killed by one of them in a
fire fight. ATF whistle blowers started to come forward and the
Department of Justice was implicated. It’s estimated that the US
government effectively supplied 1,608 weapons to criminals, at a total
value of over $1 million. Aside from putting American citizens in
danger, the AFT also supplied what now amounts to a civil war within
Mexico.

It’s important to note that the Bush administration oversaw something
similar to Fast and Furious. Called Operation Wide Receiver, it used
the common tactic of "controlled delivery," whereby agents would allow
an illegal transaction to take place, closely follow the movements of
the arms, and then descend on the culprits. But Fast and Furious is
different because it was "uncontrolled delivery," whereby the
criminals were essentially allowed to drop off the map. Perhaps more
importantly, Wide Receiver was conducted with the cooperation of the
Mexican government. Fast and Furious was not.

So Obama’s operation is subtly different. But just as concerning is
the heavy handed way that the administration has handled criticism.
Obama says that the Oversight Committee has been hi-jacked by
Republicans who would rather talk about politics than creating jobs
(because Obama is o-so very good at generating those). But there has
been Democratic criticism too, and the Prez’s determined defence of
Holder will only encourage conspiracy thinking that the scandal has
hidden depths. Executive privilege is usually associated with
protecting information that passes through the Oval Office. What did
the documents reveal about Obama’s association with the operation?

Again, it’s important to contextualise. Executive privilege has been
invoked 24 times since Ronald Reagan, and attempts to over-ride it
rarely reach the courts. Moreover, Holder’s request for executive
privilege made no reference to White House involvement in Fast and
Furious, which seems to have been run exclusively by the ATF.
Nevertheless, by refusing to sack Holder or push him to come clean,
Obama may have made a very Nixonian mistake.

A lot of conservatives are writing at the moment that not only is
Obama turning into Nixon Mark II, but Obama is much worse because no
one actually got killed during Watergate. The comparison is based on
the myth that Nixon ordered the Watergate break in and that’s what he
eventually had to resign over. But that’s not true. Nixon’s guilt was
in trying to pervert the course of justice by persuading the FBI to
drop its investigation of the crime. Mistake number one, then, was to
involve the White House in covering up the errors of a separate,
autonomous political department. Mistake number two was that when
Congress discovered that evidence about the scandal might be recorded
on the White House bugging system, Nixon invoked executive privilege
to protect the tapes. In both cases, it was the cover up that
destroyed Tricky Dick - not the original crime.

And, forty years later almost to the day, here we have Obama making
the same mistake. Perhaps it’s an act of chivalry to stand by
Holder; perhaps it’s an admission of guilt. Either way, it sinks the
Oval Office ever further into the swamp that is Fast and Furious. Make
no mistake about: Fast and Furious was perhaps the most shameful
domestic law and order operation since the Waco siege. It’s big
government at its worst: big, incompetent and capable of ruining
lives.

cosmo20002
06-21-2012, 09:02 AM
Fast and Furious scandal is turning into President Obama's Watergate



It is turning into something the Rs wish and will argue was as bad as Watergate and every other scandal 40 years, but it isn't close.

patteeu
06-21-2012, 09:17 AM
It is turning into something the Rs wish and will argue was as bad as Watergate and every other scandal 40 years, but it isn't close.

I don't think we know enough to say yet. If they're just covering up an honest blunder that is embarrassing politically, it's small potatoes. If they're covering up lies previously told to Congress to cover up an embarrassing blunder, it's pretty bad. If they're covering up an intentional, cynical effort to stoke gun violence on the border for whatever reason (e.g. to build support for gun control), it's far worse than Nixon's sins.

It sure seems like we're trending toward the latter two possibilities.

Chief Faithful
06-21-2012, 09:18 AM
It is turning into something the Rs wish and will argue was as bad as Watergate and every other scandal 40 years, but it isn't close.

Your opinion might be right or wrong, but either way by exercising Executive Priviledge Obama has taken ownership of the scandal. If he fires Holder he can cleanse himself of the issue, unless he really is guilty. Romney's camp just keeps receiving un-solicited gifts from Obama.

Chief Faithful
06-21-2012, 09:23 AM
I don't think we know enough to say yet. If they're just covering up an honest blunder that is embarrassing politically, it's small potatoes. If they're covering up lies previously told to Congress to cover up an embarrassing blunder, it's pretty bad. If they're covering up an intentional, cynical effort to stoke gun violence on the border for whatever reason (e.g. to build support for gun control), it's far worse than Nixon's sins.

It sure seems like we're trending toward the latter two possibilities.

The only way this makes sense is if Fast and Furious was a White House blunder or an intentional coverup of something much more serious initiated or approved by the White House.

cosmo20002
06-21-2012, 09:29 AM
Your opinion might be right or wrong, but either way by exercising Executive Priviledge Obama has taken ownership of the scandal. If he fires Holder he can cleanse himself of the issue, unless he really is guilty. Romney's camp just keeps receiving un-solicited gifts from Obama.

I understand how exercising EP gives the right something to fan the flames, but it is quite reasonable that such documents could endanger current and future undercover / crime-fighting operations.

Assuming Obama wins, AGs generally don't stay on the full 8 years, so Holder is likely to leave soon anyway. And the right will accuse him of running away from the scandal.

mikey23545
06-21-2012, 09:31 AM
"Fast and furious hasn’t been discussed a lot in the mainstream media,
which is why the facts can seem so preposterous when you read them for
the first time."


I don't understand...my liberal friends are always telling me how unbiased the mainstream media is...I'm so confused!

cosmo20002
06-21-2012, 09:35 AM
I don't think we know enough to say yet. If they're just covering up an honest blunder that is embarrassing politically, it's small potatoes.

This, at worst.

If they're covering up lies previously told to Congress to cover up an embarrassing blunder, it's pretty bad.

Agreed, it is bad to lie to Congress. Right now, there's no evidence of it.

If they're covering up an intentional, cynical effort to stoke gun violence on the border for whatever reason (e.g. to build support for gun control

This is lunatic fringe territory on par with birther theories.

Chief Faithful
06-21-2012, 09:35 AM
I understand how exercising EP gives the right something to fan the flames, but it is quite reasonable that such documents could endanger current and future undercover / crime-fighting operations.

Assuming Obama wins, AGs generally don't stay on the full 8 years, so Holder is likely to leave soon anyway. And the right will accuse him of running away from the scandal.

The best thing that could happen to Obama is a Holder resignation.

cosmo20002
06-21-2012, 09:45 AM
The best thing that could happen to Obama is a Holder resignation.

I don't think it would change much. Rs would still go after Holder, and they would still go after Obama.

qabbaan
06-21-2012, 09:45 AM
Nixon's goose was cooked even before the smoking gun tape. The tape proved he had obstructed justice and was guilty of criminal offenses, but his political support evaporated when it became clear that even though he was not involved in the crime, he had known about the event within days and had been lying about that the entire time. The proven lie destroyed the people's trust in him.

This scandal bears similarity. I think it looks very likely that Holder and even the White House knew about this far before they told Congress they did, and they engaged in a campaign to conceal those facts.

Iz Zat Chew
06-21-2012, 09:52 AM
The best thing that could happen to Obama is a Holder resignation.

But, the best thing for America would be an Obama defeat/resignation because of the situation. Biden would give him a pardon, I think.

cosmo20002
06-21-2012, 09:52 AM
I think it looks very likely that Holder and even the White House knew about this far before they told Congress they did, and they engaged in a campaign to conceal those facts.

Based on?

cosmo20002
06-21-2012, 09:52 AM
But, the best thing for America would be an Obama defeat/resignation because of the situation. Biden would give him a pardon, I think.

What would Obama need to be pardoned for?

Iz Zat Chew
06-21-2012, 09:53 AM
Based on?

Why would the President invoke EP? What is in the records that would be harmful to the security of the nation? I say nothing, harmful to Obama but if is was just Holder he'd throw him under the bus in a New York minute!

Iz Zat Chew
06-21-2012, 09:55 AM
What would Obama need to be pardoned for?

Yet to be determined. If he is compliant with the event that he invoked EP on there will be an investigation and I doubt he will come out clean.

Iowanian
06-21-2012, 09:56 AM
"executive privilege"

So much for that transparent government promise during the last election.


Another Obama non-Truth.

cosmo20002
06-21-2012, 10:10 AM
"executive privilege"

So much for that transparent government promise during the last election.


Another Obama non-Truth.

Yeah, because he promised total and complete transparency, right? Nothing would be confidential, that all meetings would be on TV so people could listen in, that all documents written by him or to him would be posted online so the world can follow every presidential activity.

Iowanian
06-21-2012, 10:12 AM
It is turning into something the Rs wish and will argue was as bad as Watergate and every other scandal 40 years, but it isn't close.

You're correct, they aren't even close. This one is much worse because at least 1 American agent has been murdered because of Obama's pet gun control project.

Iowanian
06-21-2012, 10:13 AM
Yeah, because he promised total and complete transparency, right? Nothing would be confidential, that all meetings would be on TV so people could listen in, that all documents written by him or to him would be posted online so the world can follow every presidential activity.


iBama sure hasn't had a problem with letting in cameras and reporters or releasing names and information when he's found it politically beneficial. How often is NBC in the room during covert military actions?

alanm
06-21-2012, 10:14 AM
It is turning into something the Rs wish and will argue was as bad as Watergate and every other scandal 40 years, but it isn't close.A botched break in at the Democrat headquarters by idiots who weren't smart enough to employ professionals to rifle a few drawers pales by comparison. Even with the cover up that followed.

qabbaan
06-21-2012, 10:15 AM
You're correct, they aren't even close. This one is much worse because at least 1 American agent has been murdered because of Obama's pet gun control project.

There certainly has not been only one death. These weapons, over a million dollars worth, were handed to Mexican drug cartels. There is basically a civil war going on in northern Mexico.

Democrats like to pretend they care about the Latino population in other countries by wanting them to be able to show up here to work, vote, and gain citizenship freely, but they don't seem to care about the ones who are being murdered in stacks by drug cartels

LiveSteam
06-21-2012, 10:21 AM
It is turning into something the Rs wish and will argue was as bad as Watergate and every other scandal 40 years, but it isn't close.

How many people died via Watergate? How many people have died via F&F?

alanm
06-21-2012, 10:27 AM
If this turns into an attempt to manipulate gun control and enact new laws by covert activities via Holder and the DOJ all hell is going to erupt.

notorious
06-21-2012, 10:48 AM
Mitt Romney needs to mention this EVERY SINGLE TIME he is interviewed and in every debate.


Rape Obama until he bleeds. It is the Liberal way, so why not use it against him?

Chief Faithful
06-21-2012, 10:51 AM
"executive privilege"

So much for that transparent government promise during the last election.


Another Obama non-Truth.

And a "new era of bipartisan cooperation."

HonestChieffan
06-21-2012, 10:53 AM
It is turning into something the Rs wish and will argue was as bad as Watergate and every other scandal 40 years, but it isn't close.

How do you reach that conclusion. Im not saying it is "as bad", but want your perspective on the two scandals and why you say it "isn't close"?

HonestChieffan
06-21-2012, 11:12 AM
If this is true, then this was not a good idea gone bad, it was part of a bigger effort to actually create a situation to support more gun control.

There have been a lot of people speculate on this but I have never actually seen anything to credibly support the accusation till now...


(CBS News) — Documents obtained by CBS News show that the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) discussed using their covert operation “Fast and Furious” to argue for controversial new rules about gun sales.

In Fast and Furious, ATF secretly encouraged gun dealers to sell to suspected traffickers for Mexican drug cartels to go after the “big fish.” But ATF whistleblowers told CBS News and Congress it was a dangerous practice called “gunwalking,” and it put thousands of weapons on the street. Many were used in violent crimes in Mexico. Two were found at the murder scene of a U.S. Border Patrol agent.

ATF officials didn’t intend to publicly disclose their own role in letting Mexican cartels obtain the weapons, but emails show they discussed using the sales, including sales encouraged by ATF, to justify a new gun regulation called “Demand Letter 3″. That would require some U.S. gun shops to report the sale of multiple rifles or “long guns.” Demand Letter 3 was so named because it would be the third ATF program demanding gun dealers report tracing information.

On July 14, 2010 after ATF headquarters in Washington D.C. received an update on Fast and Furious, ATF Field Ops Assistant Director Mark Chait emailed Bill Newell, ATF’s Phoenix Special Agent in Charge of Fast and Furious:

“Bill – can you see if these guns were all purchased from the same (licensed gun dealer) and at one time. We are looking at anecdotal cases to support a demand letter on long gun multiple sales. Thanks.”


http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-57338546-10391695/documents-atf-used-fast-and-furious-to-make-the-case-for-gun-regulations/?tag=re1.channel

The_Grand_Illusion
06-21-2012, 11:15 AM
It's going to get very interesting. I posted a story the other day a Report of Investigation paper signed by Zapata and had about 50 guns listed he had confiscated were from Fast & Furious. Now the family is suing the Justice Dep't for wrongful death. Both Holder and Napolitano told Congress Zapata's death had nothing to do with Fast & Furious.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-57457277-10391695/ice-agents-family-files-wrongful-death-claim-against-doj/?tag=socsh

ICE agent's family files wrongful death claim against Justice Dept

By Sharyl Attkisson
Topics: Law and Order

CBS News has learned that the family of ICE Special Agent Jaime Zapata has filed a claim for wrongful death against the Justice Dept. and other federal agencies. Zapata was gunned down by suspected drug cartel members in Mexico in Feb. 2011 with weapons later linked to an ATF case in the Texas area. Joining the claim is Zapata's surviving partner in the attack: Victor Avila.

In an interview last November, Zapata's family told CBS News they feel that U.S. law enforcement could have stopped the sale of a gun used to kill their son. CBS News obtained law enforcement records that show the gun that killed Zapata came from the U.S., and the suspects who allegedly trafficked it had been under law enforcement's watch for months in Dallas but weren't arrested.

In February, CBS News learned a second weapon used in the Zapata attack was also linked to an ongoing case under the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms.

The Justice Department has said ATF "was not aware of" the suspect's purchase of the gun that killed Zapata when it happened, and that answering further questions would jeopardize the investigation.

HonestChieffan
06-21-2012, 11:20 AM
If this turns into an attempt to manipulate gun control and enact new laws by covert activities via Holder and the DOJ all hell is going to erupt.


see post 28

cosmo20002
06-21-2012, 11:21 AM
iBama sure hasn't had a problem with letting in cameras and reporters or releasing names and information when he's found it politically beneficial. How often is NBC in the room during covert military actions?

Hmmm. Sometimes they release information and have cameras and somtimes they don't. Very odd. There is nothing at all that would explain that...like different circumstances, are, like, different?

notorious
06-21-2012, 11:22 AM
Holder should have just said,"We ****ed up on this, and we are sorry. It was a stupid idea." If he would have did that, it would have ended there.

Now they are going to discover information that possibly goes all the way up. **** all of them.

cosmo20002
06-21-2012, 11:24 AM
A botched break in at the Democrat headquarters by idiots who weren't smart enough to employ professionals to rifle a few drawers pales by comparison. Even with the cover up that followed.

Trying to screw with a presidential election--its really no big deal.

This was a sting operation that went wrong. It is tragic that someone died, but comparing what was essentially and accident to a planned crime is kind of ridiculous.

cosmo20002
06-21-2012, 11:25 AM
Holder should have just said,"We ****ed up on this, and we are sorry. It was a stupid idea." If he would have did that, it would have ended there.

Now they are going to discover information that possibly goes all the way up. **** all of them.

In the meantime, we really should just assume it does.

Iz Zat Chew
06-21-2012, 11:30 AM
In the meantime, we really should just assume it does.

If the Bush Administration was the center of attention your answer would be in diameteric opposition to your current answer. I betcha.

notorious
06-21-2012, 11:30 AM
In the meantime, we really should just assume it does.

I am done talking with ultra liberal homer idiots like you. I will never see eye-to-eye with some of your ideals, and you will never see reality until it is too late.


You are just like the Republican nutjobs, only on the other side of the fence.

Iz Zat Chew
06-21-2012, 11:32 AM
Trying to screw with a presidential election--its really no big deal.

This was a sting operation that went wrong. It is tragic that someone died, but comparing what was essentially and accident to a planned crime is kind of ridiculous.

It's not the sting operation and it's not even about the guy that died due to the sting. The implications are there that deeper plans were involved as well as higher authority was involved. That means Obama if you are wondering. The man is a crook in my sight and finally fucked up enough to be caught.

cosmo20002
06-21-2012, 11:34 AM
How many people died via Watergate? How many people have died via F&F?

Is that really a reasonable way to measure things? One involved law enforcement dealing with drug and weapons dealers. A death, while tragic, is not exactly shocking.

cosmo20002
06-21-2012, 11:37 AM
I am done talking with ultra liberal homer idiots like you. I will never see eye-to-eye with some of your ideals, and you will never see reality until it is too late.


You are just like the Republican nutjobs, only on the other side of the fence.

Yes, it is really nutty to consider that Obama was not involved in this, especially considering there is no evidence of it, and that invoking EP is related to not wanting to compromise current undercover and law enforcement activities. That has nothing to do with ideals, and there is nothing liberal about it whatsoever.

The_Grand_Illusion
06-21-2012, 11:42 AM
Is that really a reasonable way to measure things? One involved law enforcement dealing with drug and weapons dealers. A death, while tragic, is not exactly shocking.

:shake:

I've read estimates of 200 to 500 Mexican citizens have been killed by the guns in this botched operation. You are nothing but a partisan hack!

cosmo20002
06-21-2012, 11:43 AM
It's not the sting operation and it's not even about the guy that died due to the sting. The implications are there that deeper plans were involved as well as higher authority was involved. That means Obama if you are wondering. The man is a crook in my sight and finally ****ed up enough to be caught.

Except there are no indications of that. You said before that Obama is going to need a pardon. I asked what for, and you said it was "to be determined."

I don't know what Obama did, I just know that there is no current evidence he did anything.

cosmo20002
06-21-2012, 11:44 AM
:shake:

I've read estimates of 200 to 500 Mexican citizens have been killed by the guns in this botched operation. You are nothing but a partisan hack!

Before the operation, they had no guns and were not killing each other?

ThatRaceCardGuy
06-21-2012, 11:47 AM
The same people in this thread bitching about Zimmerman being condemed by the media and others before knowing the facts...are doing the same shit now with the POTUS.

Saul Good
06-21-2012, 11:50 AM
Before the operation, they had no guns and were not killing each other?

That's your defense? "It's okay that I sold guns to murderers because they were already murdering people before I sold them the guns."

I guess we should sell weapons to Kony, too. After all, he's already killing kids.

The_Grand_Illusion
06-21-2012, 11:50 AM
Before the operation, they had no guns and were not killing each other?

It's really a shame you are trying to nuance these deaths by this botched operation.

:shake:

Saul Good
06-21-2012, 11:53 AM
The same people in this thread bitching about Zimmerman being condemed by the media and others before knowing the facts...are doing the same shit now with the POTUS.

The people defending Zimmerman said to wait for the details to come out. Obama is actively working to make sure that the details remain secret. In both cases, the same people are asking for more information. It vindicated us on Zimmerman.

headsnap
06-21-2012, 11:54 AM
The same people in this thread bitching about Zimmerman being condemed by the media and others before knowing the facts...are doing the same shit now with the POTUS.

Knowing facts?!?! The Executive that claimed to not be involved claimed EXECUTIVE PRIVILEGE!!!!

cosmo20002
06-21-2012, 11:56 AM
That's your defense? "It's okay that I sold guns to murderers because they were already murdering people before I sold them the guns."

I guess we should sell weapons to Kony, too. After all, he's already killing kids.

Yeah, that's really what I'm saying. You're acting like guns were introduced where there were none before.

HonestChieffan
06-21-2012, 11:58 AM
Yeah, that's really what I'm saying. You're acting like guns were introduced where there were none before.


Mexicans would have been killed anyway. Plus there are plenty more where they came from. Right?

Saul Good
06-21-2012, 11:59 AM
Posters: It sure looks like Obama may have known more about this than he claimed.

Cosmo: You have no evidence that there was any wrongdoing here.

Posters: Obama won't let us see the evidence.

Cosmo: That's because it's a secret.

cosmo20002
06-21-2012, 11:59 AM
It's really a shame you are trying to nuance these deaths by this botched operation.

:shake:

Not a nuance, and I said the death was tragic. But you're acting like guns were introduced and then all hell broke loose. It was a botched operation, like you said.

Iz Zat Chew
06-21-2012, 12:00 PM
Yeah, that's really what I'm saying. You're acting like guns were introduced where there were none before.

So you are saying that providing more guns is a good thing because they were already killing with guns in the first place?

SO, if there were already guns there why did the president feel they should provide more?

cosmo20002
06-21-2012, 12:01 PM
Knowing facts?!?! The Executive that claimed to not be involved claimed EXECUTIVE PRIVILEGE!!!!

For the--I don't know--6th time maybe: It is very reasonable that the requested documents contain information that if public, could compromise current and planned undercover / crime-fighting / security matters.

Saul Good
06-21-2012, 12:01 PM
Yeah, that's really what I'm saying. You're acting like guns were introduced where there were none before.

That's exactly what you said, you fucking inbred. Yes, they already had some guns. They were using them to mount an enormous drug war near our southern border. AND WE SOLD THEM MORE GUNS. The fact that they were in the process of murdering people when we sold them the guns makes it WORSE, not better, WORSE.

cosmo20002
06-21-2012, 12:03 PM
Posters: It sure looks like Obama may have known more about this than he claimed.

Cosmo: You have no evidence that there was any wrongdoing here.

Posters: Obama won't let us see the evidence.

Cosmo: That's because it's a secret.

Take it up with your congressman to pass a constitutional amendment that congress can demand and review any and all documents from the executive branch at will.

mlyonsd
06-21-2012, 12:04 PM
For the--I don't know--6th time maybe: It is very reasonable that the requested documents contain information that if public, could compromise current and planned undercover / crime-fighting / security matters.If there was any good info the WH would already have leaked it by now.

cosmo20002
06-21-2012, 12:07 PM
That's exactly what you said, you ****ing inbred. Yes, they already had some guns. They were using them to mount an enormous drug war near our southern border. AND WE SOLD THEM MORE GUNS. The fact that they were in the process of murdering people when we sold them the guns makes it WORSE, not better, WORSE.

I'm not debating how well the operation ran, although it is a common tactic to put the goods in the hands of the criminal to track where it goes. All I'm saying is that there is no proof whatsoever that Obama had anything to do with it or did anything wrong.

LiveSteam
06-21-2012, 12:10 PM
For the--I don't know--6th time maybe: It is very reasonable that the requested documents contain information that if public, could compromise current and planned undercover / crime-fighting / security matters.

Obama leaks high security info. Like you leak on your panties once a month

Saul Good
06-21-2012, 12:11 PM
I'm not debating how well the operation ran, although it is a common tactic to put the goods in the hands of the criminal to track where it goes. All I'm saying is that there is no proof whatsoever that Obama had anything to do with it or did anything wrong.

It's one thing to put drugs in the hands of someone. It's another thing to put machine guns in the hands of violent cartels. WTF is the US government doing running sting operations in fucking Mexico for in the first place?

HonestChieffan
06-21-2012, 12:11 PM
Cosmo makes a good point. The only way Obama would have been able to like pass out some cool new guns would be if the zetas were into golf. There is no link from the zetas to golf, just horse racing.

cosmo20002
06-21-2012, 12:17 PM
So you are saying that providing more guns is a good thing because they were already killing with guns in the first place?

SO, if there were already guns there why did the president feel they should provide more?

WHY ARE THERE TWO THREADS ON THIS?

Geez, you know nothing about this do you? Whoever palnned the operation allowed illegal gun sales in order to track where they were going, which was suspected to be Mexican gangs involved in drug and gun smuggling.

cosmo20002
06-21-2012, 12:19 PM
Obama leaks high security info. Like you leak on your panties once a month

Wow, its not too difficult to tell when you guys reach the end of the R talking points.

LiveSteam
06-21-2012, 12:22 PM
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/L54gOgJxIRQ" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

cosmo20002
06-21-2012, 12:28 PM
It's one thing to put drugs in the hands of someone. It's another thing to put machine guns in the hands of violent cartels. WTF is the US government doing running sting operations in ****ing Mexico for in the first place?


Because that's where the bad guys were and the Mexican govt wasn't doing squat, I suppose. Why did the US govt go into Pakistan to get Osama. Because that's where he was and the govt wasn't doing squat.

Admit it--the problem, and it is a tragic one, is that a US agent ended up being killed by one of these guns. If not for that, and you heard that President Bush had gone into Mexico to try to stop the violent gangs who were smuggling drugs and illegal weapons into the US because the Mexican govt was too ineffectual and/or unwilling to do anything--you would think it was kick-ass.

go bowe
06-21-2012, 12:31 PM
If there was any good info the WH would already have leaked it by now.

maybe because there is no "good info" to leak...

maybe it's because there is only info about the deliberations that took place once the higher ups became aware of the fucked and furious program...

deliberations that have been protected by the invocation of executive privilege by both republican and democratic presidents...

i realize the need to see a madman axe-murderer under every rock but sometimes a rock is just a rock...

it's just as likely that there's really nothing to see, but it will play well with the right...

i'm not so sure about how it will play with swing voters though...

i know i haven't seen anything that shows the president had anything to do with fast and fucked up...

for that matter i haven't seen anything that shows holder had prior knowledge of the damned stupid idea or that he didn't immediately shut it down when he first learned of it like he says...

and i don't think i will see anything, whether or not the disputed documents are released...

but they won't be...

executive privilege isn't confined to national defense or whatever, it covers deliberations by the executive, which may or may not involve the president but which do include high level officials and most certainly the attorney general...

this reminds me of the whole birther thing...

if you can't see it, it must be bad...

but when you do see it, it must be forged, etc.

no matter what is turned over, there will be the same attacks from the right...

if i were advising the president i would tell him not to release the documents concerning the deliberative process of the attorney general or any documents pertaining to ongoing criminal investigations...

politics be damned...

Iz Zat Chew
06-21-2012, 12:32 PM
I'm not debating how well the operation ran, although it is a common tactic to put the goods in the hands of the criminal to track where it goes. All I'm saying is that there is no proof whatsoever that Obama had anything to do with it or did anything wrong.

Goods? We aren't talking about corn, sugar or even drugs with tracking information built in! We are talking about guns, things that are commonly used by crimnals to kill others. AND YOUR PRESIDENT IS INVOLVED!

HonestChieffan
06-21-2012, 12:33 PM
maybe because there is no "good info" to leak...

maybe it's because there is only info about the deliberations that took place once the higher ups became aware of the ****ed and furious program...

deliberations that have been protected by the invocation of executive privilege by both republican and democratic presidents...

i realize the need to see a madman axe-murderer under every rock but sometimes a rock is just a rock...

it's just as likely that there's really nothing to see, but it will play well with the right...

i'm not so sure about how it will play with swing voters though...

i know i haven't seen anything that shows the president had anything to do with fast and ****ed up...

for that matter i haven't seen anything that shows holder had prior knowledge of the damned stupid idea or that he didn't immediately shut it down when he first learned of it like he says...

and i don't think i will see anything, whether or not the disputed documents are released...

but they won't be...

executive privilege isn't confined to national defense or whatever, it covers deliberations by the executive, which may or may not involve the president but which do include high level officials and most certainly the attorney general...

this reminds me of the whole birther thing...

if you can't see it, it must be bad...

but when you do see it, it must be forged, etc.

no matter what is turned over, there will be the same attacks from the right...

if i were advising the president i would tell him not to release the documents concerning the deliberative process of the attorney general or any documents pertaining to ongoing criminal investigations...

politics be damned...



If even half of that were true, this should have been dead on arrival.

Smoke indicates fire....EP gambit threw gas on it.

cosmo20002
06-21-2012, 12:34 PM
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/L54gOgJxIRQ" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

FAIL. This was about a different program. Fast & Furious was the gun"walking". As much as you guys rant about this stuff, you would think you would know more about it.

Iz Zat Chew
06-21-2012, 12:35 PM
WHY ARE THERE TWO THREADS ON THIS?

Geez, you know nothing about this do you? Whoever palnned the operation allowed illegal gun sales in order to track where they were going, which was suspected to be Mexican gangs involved in drug and gun smuggling.

I didn't start the threads, don't ask me why there are two of them.

You know less than you think.

cosmo20002
06-21-2012, 12:36 PM
Goods? We aren't talking about corn, sugar or even drugs with tracking information built in! We are talking about guns, things that are commonly used by crimnals to kill others. AND YOUR PRESIDENT IS INVOLVED!

AGAIN, I'm not debating the wisdom of the program. But you obviously needed it explained to you what the tactic was.

But the main reason you are a moron is because you keep saying things like your last sentence. No proof of that whatsoever.

go bowe
06-21-2012, 12:40 PM
AGAIN, I'm not debating the wisdom of the program. But you obviously needed it explained to you what the tactic was.

But the main reason you are a moron is because you keep saying things like your last sentence. No proof of that whatsoever.

but but, your president was born in kenya!!!

Iz Zat Chew
06-21-2012, 12:42 PM
AGAIN, I'm not debating the wisdom of the program. But you obviously needed it explained to you what the tactic was.

But the main reason you are a moron is because you keep saying things like your last sentence. No proof of that whatsoever.

When someone gets the better of you your responses always start with name calling, that's a sign of weakness.

No proof? Start with asking yourself why the President felt the need to invoke EP. If you can answer that question honestly you have your answer, if not there is no reason to respond further. [which means you are fighting a losing battle.]

Iz Zat Chew
06-21-2012, 12:44 PM
but but, your president was born in kenya!!!

His president was? Wow, who'd of ever thunk it?

In reality, and at the moment, it doesn't matter where he was born. He's got trouble coming and I hope all of the trash gets taken out.

go bowe
06-21-2012, 12:46 PM
If even half of that were true, this should have been dead on arrival.

Smoke indicates fire....EP gambit threw gas on it.

well see, that's the thing...

i don't see it as a gambit...

and i don't see any smoke as yet...

just wishful thinking on the part of obama opponents...

one thing that gets lost in the invective is that everything up to the point of the ag deliberations has been released to the committee...

afaik, there is no question that the ag did not know about the program much less authorized it...

there is also nothing in the documents covering that time period that even remotely suggests that the ag, let alone the president, had any involvement other than what holder has already disclosed to the committee...

i just don't see any smoke here...

cosmo20002
06-21-2012, 12:53 PM
When someone gets the better of you your responses always start with name calling, that's a sign of weakness.

No proof? Start with asking yourself why the President felt the need to invoke EP. If you can answer that question honestly you have your answer, if not there is no reason to respond further. [which means you are fighting a losing battle.]

I don't think your statement that "AND YOUR PRESIDENT IS INVOLVED!" qualifies as getting the better of me.

I did address EP, about six times. Once more:

It is completely reasonable, considering that we are dealing with law enforcement and border security operations, that the requested documents contain information, that if public, could compromise current and future undercover / law enforcement / security operations.

HonestChieffan
06-21-2012, 12:54 PM
well see, that's the thing...

i don't see it as a gambit...

and i don't see any smoke as yet...

just wishful thinking on the part of obama opponents...

one thing that gets lost in the invective is that everything up to the point of the ag deliberations has been released to the committee...

afaik, there is no question that the ag did not know about the program much less authorized it...

there is also nothing in the documents covering that time period that even remotely suggests that the ag, let alone the president, had any involvement other than what holder has already disclosed to the committee...

i just don't see any smoke here...

You and Cosmo won't recognize the smoke when you see it and if you do it will be someone else's fault.

If the AG didn't know, didn't authorize, then he would have had zero communication about it with the administration. Why does he not produce documents that simply show that to be the case?

They are hiding something.

cosmo20002
06-21-2012, 01:06 PM
You and Cosmo won't recognize the smoke when you see it and if you do it will be someone else's fault.

If the AG didn't know, didn't authorize, then he would have had zero communication about it with the administration. Why does he not produce documents that simply show that to be the case?

They are hiding something.

Produce documents showing there was no communication? Interesting. :hmmm:

The_Grand_Illusion
06-21-2012, 01:07 PM
Not a nuance, and I said the death was tragic. But you're acting like guns were introduced and then all hell broke loose. It was a botched operation, like you said.

You are one sick mind downplaying all those deaths so that it doesn't make your dear leader look bad.

I now know why people call liberalism a mental disease.

vailpass
06-21-2012, 01:10 PM
This is what happens when people are awarded positions based on skin color over qualification.

cosmo20002
06-21-2012, 01:11 PM
I now know why people call liberalism a mental disease.

:tinfoil: ...says the guy who most birthers would say is "a little out there" when it comes to the birther stuff. :tinfoil:

The_Grand_Illusion
06-21-2012, 01:18 PM
:tinfoil: ...says the guy who most birthers would say is "a little out there" when it comes to the birther stuff. :tinfoil:

I passed on an official law enforcement investigation. They found many things wrong with his life narrative. It's not my fault you didn't watch it but it does point out holes your dear leader's life narrative so I understand why you wouldn't or downplay it. With all the corruption coming out with this administration, anything is possible.

go bowe
06-21-2012, 01:23 PM
You and Cosmo won't recognize the smoke when you see it and if you do it will be someone else's fault.

If the AG didn't know, didn't authorize, then he would have had zero communication about it with the administration. Why does he not produce documents that simply show that to be the case?

They are hiding something.

i didn't think you would confuse me with cosmo, but i really didn't think you would confuse me with someone who blames bush for everything...

as i said, all the documents pertaining to the time period up until the ag became aware of it have already been released to the committee, some seven thousand pages...

there simply is no evidence in all that information that either the ag or the president knew about this or authorized it in any way, none...

short answer, they have produced those documents...

vailpass
06-21-2012, 01:30 PM
i didn't think you would confuse me with cosmo, but i really didn't think you would confuse me with someone who blames bush for everything...

as i said, all the documents pertaining to the time period up until the ag became aware of it have already been released to the committee, some seven thousand pages...

there simply is no evidence in all that information that either the ag or the president knew about this or authorized it in any way, none...

short answer, they have produced those documents...

Howdy gb,
If all the documents have been produced what is it the Rs are still asking for?

HonestChieffan
06-21-2012, 01:34 PM
i didn't think you would confuse me with cosmo, but i really didn't think you would confuse me with someone who blames bush for everything...

as i said, all the documents pertaining to the time period up until the ag became aware of it have already been released to the committee, some seven thousand pages...

there simply is no evidence in all that information that either the ag or the president knew about this or authorized it in any way, none...

short answer, they have produced those documents...



Well, they produced nice clean documents that did not answer the questions. The documents they refuse to produce must have more meat on the bones or they would not go to such lengths to hide them from daylight.

Munson
06-21-2012, 01:39 PM
Holder has released about 7,600 pages. He still has 70,000 more pages that he has not turned over to Congress.

Iz Zat Chew
06-21-2012, 01:56 PM
I don't think your statement that "AND YOUR PRESIDENT IS INVOLVED!" qualifies as getting the better of me.

I did address EP, about six times. Once more:

It is completely reasonable, considering that we are dealing with law enforcement and border security operations, that the requested documents contain information, that if public, could compromise current and future undercover / law enforcement / security operations.

And again, what does that have to do with national security and why is YOUR PRESIDENTS INVOLVEMENT needed?

Iz Zat Chew
06-21-2012, 02:00 PM
Produce documents showing there was no communication? Interesting. :hmmm:

Not interesting to those that have a brain. There was an operation and Holder knew about it, if he didn't know about it why the stink? The boy is standing in shit up to his nose and should have kept his mouth shut. If there was nothing that could be leaked and neither the president or AG were involved why would there be an issue at all?

After a few weeks or months they will lift the EP and give out all of the newly doctored documents, somewhat akin to the White Water papers from the Clinton era.

cosmo20002
06-21-2012, 03:16 PM
Well, they produced nice clean documents that did not answer the questions. The documents they refuse to produce must have more meat on the bones or they would not go to such lengths to hide them from daylight.

Once again: It is completely reasonable, considering that we are dealing with law enforcement and border security operations, that the requested documents contain information, that if public, could compromise current and future undercover / law enforcement / security operations.

Are you still standing by the chesnut that they need to show the documents that show they didn't communicate about it?: ROFL

If the AG didn't know, didn't authorize, then he would have had zero communication about it with the administration. Why does he not produce documents that simply show that to be the case?

Iz Zat Chew
06-21-2012, 03:23 PM
Once again: It is completely reasonable, considering that we are dealing with law enforcement and border security operations, that the requested documents contain information, that if public, could compromise current and future undercover / law enforcement / security operations.

Are you still standing by the chesnut that they need to show the documents that show they didn't communicate about it?: ROFL

You honestly believe there are no documents being hidden away?

And you rail on people that do not trust Obama, your unswerving loyalty to a crooked president is truly impressive.

cosmo20002
06-21-2012, 03:31 PM
You honestly believe there are no documents being hidden away?

And you rail on people that do not trust Obama, your unswerving loyalty to a crooked president is truly impressive.

Hidden? I guess I have no idea if there are. I guess only a hyper-partisan lunatic would rant on and on about documents being hidden when there is no evidence whatsoever that the documents in question even exist. Despite no evidence, you've decided Obama was involved, and you're demanding the related documents. Problem is, if he wasn't involved, those documents don't exist.

Setsuna
06-21-2012, 03:41 PM
I've come to realize cosmo will fight you on useless things and completely ignore facts being presented to him that makes his party look like fools.

alanm
06-21-2012, 03:46 PM
If there was any good info the WH would already have leaked it by now.They seem have no problem leaking other information dealing with National Security. ROFL

scho63
06-21-2012, 03:59 PM
This is going to get much worse trust me.....

I don't know if this is going to bring down Obama by itself but he is adding more nails to his coffin each week.

Eric Holder is the WORST POS attorney general we ever had. He does EVERYTHING completely the opposite of what should be done. He defends illegals and sues states that uphold the law. How the hell can the highest law enforcement office in the land get away with this is mind boggling.

cosmo20002
06-21-2012, 04:54 PM
I've come to realize cosmo will fight you on useless things and completely ignore facts being presented to him that makes his party look like fools.

Yeah, like what? What are these facts I'm ignoring?

See, your prior post accusing me of such would have been the time to maybe mention one, but you obviously have no backbone and not enough brains to come up with anything more than emtpy nonsense. Thanks for dropping by, but there really are already enough fact-free right wing posters with nothing to add.

cosmo20002
06-21-2012, 05:00 PM
Eric Holder is the WORST POS attorney general we ever had. He does EVERYTHING completely the opposite of what should be done. He defends illegals and sues states that uphold the law. How the hell can the highest law enforcement office in the land get away with this is mind boggling.

I'm sure you are well-acquianted with history's AGs to make that comparison.

And I'm sure it is mind-boggling to someone who doesn't have a clue what they are talking about.

vailpass
06-21-2012, 05:18 PM
This is going to get much worse trust me.....

I don't know if this is going to bring down Obama by itself but he is adding more nails to his coffin each week.

Eric Holder is the WORST POS attorney general we ever had. He does EVERYTHING completely the opposite of what should be done. He defends illegals and sues states that uphold the law. How the hell can the highest law enforcement office in the land get away with this is mind boggling.

Got the job because he is kind of black, been disgracing the office since the day he moved in.

Same goes for Holder.

HonestChieffan
06-21-2012, 05:23 PM
http://youtu.be/L54gOgJxIRQ

Words have meaning...obama once said that

notorious
06-21-2012, 05:27 PM
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/L54gOgJxIRQ" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Setsuna
06-21-2012, 06:01 PM
Yeah, like what? What are these facts I'm ignoring?

See, your prior post accusing me of such would have been the time to maybe mention one, but you obviously have no backbone and not enough brains to come up with anything more than emtpy nonsense. Thanks for dropping by, but there really are already enough fact-free right wing posters with nothing to add.

The facts presented in the OP of what happened. From what I saw, you are denying the possibilities that will ruin your boy Obama and advocating the ones, as fact mind you, that will exonerate him. The fact of the matter is you nor any of us know what will happen. That makes no sense and makes you look ignorant.

cosmo20002
06-21-2012, 06:04 PM
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/L54gOgJxIRQ" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Its great having three identical threads. Could you post this again?

This video is not about gunwalking/Fast and Furious. Either you didn't watch it or you are doing a shrink where you're just lying.

notorious
06-21-2012, 07:36 PM
Its great having three identical threads. Could you post this again?

This video is not about gunwalking/Fast and Furious. Either you didn't watch it or you are doing a shrink where you're just lying.

I embedded it so that it was easier for people to watch, dickhead.

RedNeckRaider
06-21-2012, 07:57 PM
I embedded it so that it was easier for people to watch, dickhead.

He is a tad slow LMAO every time he goes for the gotcha post, he gets spanked. You would think he would learn~

cosmo20002
06-21-2012, 08:03 PM
I embedded it so that it was easier for people to watch, dickhead.

It has a title on it that says "Obama knew about gunwalking" when that is not what is on the video. So why would you make it easier for people to watch?

notorious
06-21-2012, 08:05 PM
It has a title on it that says "Obama knew about gunwalking" when that is not what is on the video. So why would you make it easier for people to watch?

I was being nice?


Some people don't know how to embed, others don't want to go off the current page.

cosmo20002
06-21-2012, 08:05 PM
He is a tad slow LMAO every time he goes for the gotcha post, he gets spanked. You would think he would learn~

Well, I'm 100% correct. The only questions are why someone would go out of their way to post something obviously incorrect, and then why you would post something so stupid to back him up.

RedNeckRaider
06-21-2012, 08:06 PM
Well, I'm 100% correct. The only questions are why someone would go out of their way to post something obviously incorrect, and then why you would post something so stupid to back him up.

ROFL relentless in maintaining you title of shitbag~

cosmo20002
06-21-2012, 08:06 PM
I was being nice?


Some people don't know how to embed, others don't want to go off the current page.

So, you're making it easier for people to see something that is wrong and misleading? And you like to present yourself as fair and sick of the nonsense on both sides.

notorious
06-21-2012, 08:08 PM
So, you're making it easier for people to see something that is wrong and misleading? And you like to present yourself as fair and sick of the nonsense on both sides.

I embedded a video. Burn me at the stake.

cosmo20002
06-21-2012, 08:10 PM
ROFL relentless in maintaining you title of shitbag~

You're completely wrong here (as usual), you pretend like its me. You are delusional.

RedNeckRaider
06-21-2012, 08:12 PM
lambs Bah bah

What?

cosmo20002
06-21-2012, 08:14 PM
I embedded a video. Burn me at the stake.

Great job. Its good to know you are sick of the misleading BS from both sides. If you weren't sick of it, who knows what you would post.

stevieray
06-21-2012, 08:17 PM
I've come to realize cosmo will fight you on useless things and completely ignore facts being presented to him that makes his party look like fools.

know why?

...it's Jenson71/Literature

notorious
06-21-2012, 08:26 PM
Great job. Its good to know you are sick of the misleading BS from both sides. If you weren't sick of it, who knows what you would post.

Yay!


You actually think someone give a fuck what you think or say!

Iz Zat Chew
06-21-2012, 08:51 PM
What?

I think he was trying to say
lambs Bah bah bah

qabbaan
06-22-2012, 08:12 AM
Why is it all these F&F topics are good discussions until Chew and CosmoCarney make it unreadable...

mlyonsd
06-22-2012, 08:16 AM
Terry family attorney Pat McGroder released the follow statement Wednesday from Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry's parents, Josephine Terry and Kent Terry Sr.:

"Attorney General Eric Holder's refusal to fully disclose the documents associated with Operation Fast and Furious and President Obama's assertion of executive privilege serves to compound this tragedy. It denies the Terry family and the American people the truth. Our son, Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry, was killed by members of a Mexican drug cartel armed with weapons from this failed Justice Department gun trafficking investigation. For more than 18 months we have been asking our federal government for justice and accountability. The documents sought by the House Oversight Committee and associated with Operation Fast and Furious should be produced and turned over to the committee. Our son lost his life protecting this nation, and it is very disappointing that we are now faced with an administration that seems more concerned with protecting themselves rather than revealing the truth behind Operation Fast and Furious."

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/06/20/brian-terry-family-releases-statement-on-obama-executive-privilege-assertion/

Setsuna
06-22-2012, 09:10 AM
know why?

...it's Jenson71/Literature

Ohhhhhh....that makes plenty sense. Thanks stevie :D

cosmo20002
06-22-2012, 09:15 AM
Why is it all these F&F topics are good discussions until Chew and CosmoCarney make it unreadable...

Why don't you point out something I've said here that is really so outrageous.

That there is currently no evidence of Obama's involvement?
That using executive privilige has a very legitimate purpose?
That considering the issue involved (law enforcement, security), EP on its face would seem to a have a very reasonable and legit use regarding this issue?
Pointing out the the video labelled "Obama knew about gunwalking" actually shows nothing of the sort?

Take a look through the posts and see who is ranting about "Obama is a POS! Obama is going down on this!" without any facts. See who started throwing out the insults because I tried to inject some reason into this. Seriously, I'd really like to know how I have made this so "unreadable."

Setsuna
06-22-2012, 09:19 AM
Why don't you point out something I've said here that is really so outrageous.

That there is currently no evidence of Obama's involvement?
That using executive privilige has a very legitimate purpose?
That considering the issue involved (law enforcement, security), EP on its face would seem to a have a very reasonable and legit use regarding this issue?
Pointing out the the video labelled "Obama knew about gunwalking" actually shows nothing of the sort?

Take a look through the posts and see who is ranting about "Obama is a POS! Obama is going down on this!" without any facts. See who started throwing out the insults because I tried to inject some reason into this. Seriously, I'd really like to know how I have made this so "unreadable."
You and reason? Which thing is not like the other? You can't fool anyone. Oh and cosmo please show me those direct quotes of posts in here of those exact words being said. I'll wait...

cosmo20002
06-22-2012, 09:42 AM
You and reason? Which thing is not like the other? You can't fool anyone. Oh and cosmo please show me those direct quotes of posts in here of those exact words being said. I'll wait...

There's three threads on this topic. I'm pretty sure a good portion of them either blame Obama, accuse him of a cover up, or predict/guarantee his downfall over this. If I'm mistaken let me know.

Note that I've never said "He had no role." What I've said is that there is absolutely no evidence of it.

Iz Zat Chew
06-22-2012, 09:46 AM
There's three threads on this topic. I'm pretty sure a good portion of them either blame Obama, accuse him of a cover up, or predict/guarantee his downfall over this. If I'm mistaken let me know.

Note that I've never said "He had no role." What I've said is that there is absolutely no evidence of it.

More evidence of the creed of cosmo:
To be sure of hitting the target, shoot first and call whatever you hit the target.

As stated before, he never hits a target and keeps redirecting the questions. I'm still waiting for his proof that 1) Reagan invoked EP AFTER he was out of office. 2) Get your head out of your ass and provide the unreasonable demands that congress made to Obama! 3) Proof that you have any evidence of anything you say.

Setsuna
06-22-2012, 10:04 AM
There's three threads on this topic. I'm pretty sure a good portion of them either blame Obama, accuse him of a cover up, or predict/guarantee his downfall over this. If I'm mistaken let me know.

Note that I've never said "He had no role." What I've said is that there is absolutely no evidence of it.

Pretty sure? Wow. Why do you still post? I'm done trying to have a legitimate conversation with you.

cosmo20002
06-22-2012, 10:14 AM
Pretty sure? Wow. Why do you still post? I'm done trying to have a legitimate conversation with you.

"Pretty sure" = sarcasm

There's no question that a large portion of the posts throughout the 3 threads either blame Obama, accuse him of a cover up, or predict/guarantee his downfall over this. Another large portion throws an assortment of insults at me for suggesting there's no actual evidence of this and that there seems to at least be a reasonable basis for invoking EP.

Iz Zat Chew
06-22-2012, 10:17 AM
"Pretty sure" = sarcasm

There's no question that a large portion of the posts throughout the 3 threads either blame Obama, accuse him of a cover up, or predict/guarantee his downfall over this. Another large portion throws an assortment of insults at me for suggesting there's no actual evidence of this and that there seems to at least be a reasonable basis for invoking EP.


You've been given the circumstantial evidence. Why would a president invoke EP if there wasn't something that is incriminating to the administration. It's obvious that the F&F fuckup had involvement to the top and Obama just doesn't want to track the shit on his shoes into the election. It's too late, he'd have been better off throwing Holder under the bus.

cosmo20002
06-22-2012, 10:37 AM
Why would a president invoke EP if there wasn't something that is incriminating to the administration.

Didn't I just read a post from you defending W. Bush by saying he had legitimate reasons for his 6 times? And you were bragging that Reagan "only" invoked 3 times? So they were covering up something incriminating 6 times and 3 times?

Iz, you're a joke. So much so that I'm not sure if you're actually serious about what you say. I think it would almost be impossible to accidentally be this inconsistent.

stonedstooge
06-22-2012, 10:45 AM
O'Bama just setting up his platform for the election as "being a victim". Not surprising as this has constantly been his mantra. "Not My Fault"

vailpass
06-22-2012, 10:48 AM
know why?

...it's Jenson71/Literature

Cosmo=Jensen? Jensen did neg rep me for a comment I made to Cosmo telling him to STFU. hmmm?
That would be hilarious. N words for everybody!

vailpass
06-22-2012, 10:50 AM
Didn't I just read a post from you defending W. Bush by saying he had legitimate reasons for his 6 times? And you were bragging that Reagan "only" invoked 3 times? So they were covering up something incriminating 6 times and 3 times?

Iz, you're a joke. So much so that I'm not sure if you're actually serious about what you say. I think it would almost be impossible to accidentally be this inconsistent.

Are you Jensen? Literature?

stevieray
06-22-2012, 10:56 AM
Cosmo=Jensen?

read his posts with that in mind...then you telll me...:hmmm:

The_Grand_Illusion
06-22-2012, 11:03 AM
read his posts with that in mind...then you telll me...:hmmm:


Interesting, Cosmo did admit there was not enough Dems here so is Jenson astroturfing? If so, how deceptive.

Iz Zat Chew
06-22-2012, 11:05 AM
Didn't I just read a post from you defending W. Bush by saying he had legitimate reasons for his 6 times? And you were bragging that Reagan "only" invoked 3 times? So they were covering up something incriminating 6 times and 3 times?

Iz, you're a joke. So much so that I'm not sure if you're actually serious about what you say. I think it would almost be impossible to accidentally be this inconsistent.

No, those are your words. You haven't uncovered all of the incriminating situations that match Obama's, but should you post each and every one of them, proving me wrong I'll be the very first to admit that I was in error. I was actually alive during the two administrations you are talking about and don't recollect anything that was going on that would even hint that the president was doing anything but protecting the United States et al. Obama sure seems to protecting Obama, nobody is really fearful that the drug war will cause the country irreparable damage should some of the secrets of it be exposed. National security is a far cry from personal liability and that is what we are talking about, National Security with Reagan and Bush, personal liability with Obama.

vailpass
06-22-2012, 11:06 AM
Interesting, Cosmo did admit there was not enough Dems here so is Jenson astroturfing? If so, how deceptive.

He's a high-strung enough little bastard to do it. We'll see if Cosmo responds to my direct question asking if he's Jensen or Lit.

cosmo20002
06-22-2012, 11:43 AM
No, those are your words.

No, they are yours. It is what you said.

I really can't tell is this is an act or not. Its hard to imagine someone acting this way on purpose.

Iz Zat Chew
06-22-2012, 11:50 AM
No, they are yours. It is what you said.

I really can't tell is this is an act or not. Its hard to imagine someone acting this way on purpose.

My mistake, I used an "a" where I should have used "the" referring to Obama.

Your act is almost funny, so which is it? Cosmo or Literature or Jenson, or is it all three?

go bowe
06-22-2012, 01:59 PM
Howdy gb,
If all the documents have been produced what is it the Rs are still asking for?

all the docuents pertaining to the operation and what happened up until it was brought to holder's attention have been produded...

documents relating to executive deliberations after holder was informed are the subject of the subpoena and executive privilege claim...

Iz Zat Chew
06-22-2012, 03:26 PM
all the docuents pertaining to the operation and what happened up until it was brought to holder's attention have been produded...

documents relating to executive deliberations after holder was informed are the subject of the subpoena and executive privilege claim...

So who wins?

vailpass
06-22-2012, 04:50 PM
all the docuents pertaining to the operation and what happened up until it was brought to holder's attention have been produded...

documents relating to executive deliberations after holder was informed are the subject of the subpoena and executive privilege claim...

Thanks gb. In your opinion is it unreasonable for the committee to want to examine those documents relating to the executive deliberations?

go bowe
06-23-2012, 02:48 PM
Thanks gb. In your opinion is it unreasonable for the committee to want to examine those documents relating to the executive deliberations?

not unreasonable, but the whole point of executive privilege is to protect the executive deliberative process...

allowing officials to openly discuss an issue and consider differing opinions is essential to the executive branch and executive privilege has been asserted by presidents from both parties for that very reason...

to assume that the assertion of executive privilege means that there was a cover-up or that the president knew about the program and approved it is beyond cynical, it's wishful thinking...

nothing much will come of this controversy and it will probably be settled though negotiations...

otoh, negotiations between democrats and republicans have not worked very well lately...

the contempt charge (assuming the full house votes for it, and i'm not sure that will happen) won't go anywhere because it contemplates having the us atty refer the charge to a grand jury...

however, the us atty is part of the justice department and works for the ag...

in the end, just a lot of noise and grandstanding but no real impact...

vailpass
06-24-2012, 04:17 PM
not unreasonable, but the whole point of executive privilege is to protect the executive deliberative process...

allowing officials to openly discuss an issue and consider differing opinions is essential to the executive branch and executive privilege has been asserted by presidents from both parties for that very reason...

to assume that the assertion of executive privilege means that there was a cover-up or that the president knew about the program and approved it is beyond cynical, it's wishful thinking...

nothing much will come of this controversy and it will probably be settled though negotiations...

otoh, negotiations between democrats and republicans have not worked very well lately...

the contempt charge (assuming the full house votes for it, and i'm not sure that will happen) won't go anywhere because it contemplates having the us atty refer the charge to a grand jury...

however, the us atty is part of the justice department and works for the ag...

in the end, just a lot of noise and grandstanding but no real impact...

Thanks

Chiefshrink
06-24-2012, 05:43 PM
not unreasonable, but the whole point of executive privilege is to protect the executive deliberative process...

Not when it involves wrongdoing especially relating to murder:shrug:

The_Grand_Illusion
06-25-2012, 12:13 PM
Interesting 45 minute interview with this person investigating Fast & Furious by Major Garrett. There is even some new revelations about a possible 3rd F&F gun found at the scene of Brian Terry's death that has disappeared. Sorry, I didn't see any embed options for the video at C-Span.

http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/Kati

After Words with Katie Pavlich
Jun 6, 2012

C-SPAN | BookTV

The contributing editor of Townhall Magazine explores the controversial gun supply operation, initially run by the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms,that's currently under congressional investigation. She discusses her findings with National Journal's White House correspondent Major Garrett.

.

cosmo20002
06-25-2012, 12:20 PM
There is even some new revelations about a possible 3rd F&F gun found at the scene


Rumor is that it was made in Kenya, but apparently registered in Hawaii. Oddly though, the registration number corresponds to numbers only used in Connecticut.

The_Grand_Illusion
06-25-2012, 12:24 PM
Rumor is that it was made in Kenya, but apparently registered in Hawaii. Oddly though, the registration number corresponds to numbers only used in Connecticut.

Funny how you just show up to run interference.

mikey23545
06-25-2012, 12:24 PM
Rumor is that it was made in Kenya, but apparently registered in Hawaii. Oddly though, the registration number corresponds to numbers only used in Connecticut.

That's a great joke!

Maybe you should email it to Brian Terry's family.

mikey23545
06-25-2012, 12:26 PM
Funny how you just show up to run interference.

He always posts within moments of any anti-Obama post or thread, just like someone else we used to know...

The_Grand_Illusion
06-25-2012, 12:34 PM
He always posts within moments of any anti-Obama post or thread, just like someone else we used to know...

In the PR world it's called damage control.

vailpass
06-25-2012, 12:37 PM
That's a great joke!

Maybe you should email it to Brian Terry's family.

As much chance of that asshole understanding this as there is obama manning up and taking care of it.

vailpass
06-25-2012, 12:37 PM
In the PR world it's called damage control.

In the CP world its called Agent Orange.

cosmo20002
06-25-2012, 12:49 PM
He always posts within moments of any anti-Obama post or thread, just like someone else we used to know...

I haven't posted in several days. Were there no anti-Obama posts the past few days?

cosmo20002
06-25-2012, 12:51 PM
That's a great joke!

Maybe you should email it to Brian Terry's family.

Are they nutjob birthers also?

headsnap
06-25-2012, 12:55 PM
I haven't posted in several days. Were there no anti-Obama posts the past few days?

so they let you take weekends off?

The_Grand_Illusion
06-25-2012, 12:58 PM
Are they nutjob birthers also?

You are not going to ridicule me for finding Sheriff Joe's official law enforcement investigation interesting and very troubling. Not that this Alinsky tactic hasn't been used effectively to keep people from looking in to his life narrative, I won't fall for that. There is plenty that investigation found troubling and thanks for bringing it up again. I will invite people again to judge for themselves.

http://www.mcsoccp.org/joomla/

.

cosmo20002
06-25-2012, 01:20 PM
You are not going to ridicule me for finding Sheriff Joe's official law enforcement investigation interesting and very troubling. Not that this Alinsky tactic hasn't been used effectively to keep people from looking in to his life narrative, I won't fall for that. There is plenty that investigation found troubling and thanks for bringing it up again. I will invite people again to judge for themselves.

http://www.mcsoccp.org/joomla/

.

Oh yes I am.

You often note how there is "official law enforcement" behind this 'investigation,' as if Sheriff Joe was simply beyond being questioned.
If the "officialness" of the investigation is so compelling to you, why is the official authenication of the birth certificate by the state of Hawaii (with an R governor) so uncompelling?

LVNHACK
06-25-2012, 01:40 PM
know why?

...it's Jenson71/Literature


ffs....but it figures they're all fags...

CoMoChief
06-25-2012, 01:41 PM
LOL, these executive privileges aren't free passes for committing crimes, like Obama thinks they are. This is 150% a criminal govt we have in DC. The war on drugs is a fake money-wasting fraud. The govt and big pharma keep illicit drugs illegal to keep prices up in the illegal/black markets, only so then they can arm certain drug cartels that launder their drug money through our big banks on Wall Street, while the ones that don't get taken out. This has been going on for years, and now with internet and other forms of media outlets, it's just now starting to be talked about. The Clinton admin and both Bush regimes all ran similar gun running programs. One of the main roles of the CIA to basically keep track of the black market/drug trade and the hundreds of billions of dollars that come out of it.

Below is a video of a lecture by Mike Ruppert whom some of you may have heard of from another one of his videos "Collapse." If you haven't seen it, take a couple hours of your time when bored and watch it.

This video is called "The Truth and Lies of 9/11" which is also a very good video worth watching, I suggest you watch the entire thing if you get a chance. This doesn't pertain to Fast and Furious specifically, but this just further proves the point that our govt. is ran and influenced by the Wall Street banks. The part I'm wanting to share starts at 29min mark.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/vQR2z4YCzDw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

The_Grand_Illusion
06-25-2012, 02:05 PM
Oh yes I am.

You often note how there is "official law enforcement" behind this 'investigation,' as if Sheriff Joe was simply beyond being questioned.
If the "officialness" of the investigation is so compelling to you, why is the official authenication of the birth certificate by the state of Hawaii (with an R governor) so uncompelling?

Oh well then if the democrat dominated media and culture tells you so I guess they are beyond questioned for you, lol. Face it, you are just here for spin and damage control. Anyone who even dares to question dear leader or his narrative, you attack them. How intolerant of you, lol. Just another example of the so called liberal tolerance, lol.

I’ve already told you what I found troubling about their investigation but I’ll repeat a few. One is the lead investigator found there really isn’t a process in place to vet the presidential candidates if, like in this case, the democrat dominated media doesn’t do it because they were too busy, like you, idolizing him. Also if the opposition doesn’t do it, like the McCain camp admitted they should have done more.

That leads to the only person that really vetted him when she signed off on his Official Certification of Nomination and that was Nancy Pelosi, and we all understand what a crazy bitch she turned out to be.

Another issue they found was how easy it was for foreign born citizens to get a Certificate of Live Birth from Hawaii back then and are treated as if they were really born in Hawaii. They claimed to have found over 1,000 examples from Japanese born citizens who were able to get a Hawaiian COLB. You don’t think the Hawaiian government might be trying to protect itself from this flawed program of the past? Even in those Japanese born Hawaiian COLB’s they found they still ended up printed in Hawaiian newspapers even though they were born in Japan. You put that with his literary bio and other claims prior claiming he was born in Kenya and it it makes you wonder what the real story is. Was he lying back then or now? We still don’t know much about him because so much of his past has been held in secret. But since your democrat dominated media and culture tells you otherwise, then I guess that makes it so, lol


The last issue is the most damaging they found and that was with his Selective Service card and only 2 digits in the date stamp when it is DOD mandated to be 4 digits, the investigation claimed. They’ve had Postmaster Generals and Inspectors view the document and claimed it was fake. The lead investigator was easily able to duplicate how the document was forged.

Not sure if this will ever get resolved as long as so many blinders to who this president really is and people fear the Alinsky tactics being afraid to speak out because they might be called a “birther”. What are we? Still in junior high? People don’t realize how well the left uses these tactics. I really don’t care what you call me, I just want answers.

TGI

cosmo20002
06-25-2012, 02:11 PM
Oh well then if the democrat dominated media and culture tells you so I guess they are beyond questioned for you, lol. Face it, you are just here for spin and damage control. Anyone who even dares to question dear leader or his narrative, you attack them. How intolerant of you, lol. Just another example of the so called liberal tolerance, lol.



Attack = question your assertions that have already been debunked many, many times.

The_Grand_Illusion
06-25-2012, 02:14 PM
Attack = question your assertions that have already been debunked many, many times.


In your small world I guess. Funny how you told me to question my source but you won't even watch the videos or question your own sources. That leaves you are just here for spin.

cosmo20002
06-25-2012, 02:23 PM
In your small world I guess. Funny how you told me to question my source but you won't even watch the videos or question your own sources. That leaves you are just here for spin.

I did watch one of your videos. The one that makes the assertion that his selective service card did not have the time stamp mandated by the Dept of Justice and instead had an incorrect, forged time stamp.

I asked how they came up with the assertion that the DOJ mandated that the nation's post offices use a specific time stamp design only for SS cards, but that was never answered. Also, there was no comment on the fact that the Seclective Service has reviewed and verified Obama's card and said it is authentic with no problems.

The_Grand_Illusion
06-25-2012, 02:35 PM
I did watch one of your videos. The one that makes the assertion that his selective service card did not have the time stamp mandated by the Dept of Justice and instead had an incorrect, forged time stamp.

I asked how they came up with the assertion that the DOJ mandated that the nation's post offices use a specific time stamp design only for SS cards, but that was never answered. Also, there was no comment on the fact that the Seclective Service has reviewed and verified Obama's card and said it is authentic with no problems.

:LOL:

This just goes to show, you either didn't watch them or you are very bad at paying attention to the issue. It was the Dep't of Defense, not Dep't of Justice. Of course, you watched them, LMAO


BTW, the lead investigator said any claims he made he could back up. That's how good investigators work. I'm sure it could probably be easily looked up but you are only here to spin and obfuscate.

cosmo20002
06-25-2012, 02:42 PM
:LOL:

This just goes to show, you either didn't watch them or you are very bad at paying attention to the issue. It was the Dep't of Defense, not Dep't of Justice. Of course, you watched them, LMAO


BTW, the lead investigator said any claims he made he could back up. That's how good investigators work. I'm sure it could probably be easily looked up but you are only here to spin and obfuscate.

But did he back them up?

OK, so did the DOD mandate to the post office to only use a certain type of time stamp for SS cards? Seems like a pretty relevant point. The SS people apparently don't agree because they said Obama's card looked just as it should.

The_Grand_Illusion
06-25-2012, 02:46 PM
But did he back them up?

OK, so did the DOD mandate to the post office to only use a certain type of time stamp for SS cards? Seems like a pretty relevant point. The SS people apparently don't agree because they said Obama's card looked just as it should.

OMG, You can't be this dense but I stand corrected. I told you he made that claim in the video! More proof, you didn't watch it like you claimed.

cosmo20002
06-25-2012, 03:04 PM
OMG, You can't be this dense but I stand corrected. I told you he made that claim in the video! More proof, you didn't watch it like you claimed.

Yes, he made the claim. But a guy with a political agenda making claims that on their face seem far-fetched isn't all that perausive. I'd like to see some actual proof of this DOD-mandated stamp. And someone is going to have to tell the SS that they are wrong when they say there was nothing wrong with the card or stamp.

I actually have to go into the post office later, I'll ask if they know anything.

Iz Zat Chew
06-25-2012, 04:21 PM
OMG, You can't be this dense but I stand corrected. I told you he made that claim in the video! More proof, you didn't watch it like you claimed.

If he would have watched the videos it would have meant that he would have to change his stance as it disproved much of his continual commentary.

The_Grand_Illusion
06-25-2012, 04:48 PM
Yes, he made the claim. But a guy with a political agenda making claims that on their face seem far-fetched isn't all that perausive. I'd like to see some actual proof of this DOD-mandated stamp. And someone is going to have to tell the SS that they are wrong when they say there was nothing wrong with the card or stamp.

I actually have to go into the post office later, I'll ask if they know anything.

I wish they would have put up photos but @ 39 minutes in to the video they show more Selective Service cards from around the date that Obama's claimed. All have 4 digit year stamps. 2 are from the same post office in Hawaii Obama claimed to have turned his in to and they have 4 digit year stamps. You really didn't watch the video or this might just cause a little concern on who this guy really is and all the corruption that has followed.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/XWmWO18GTc8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

The_Grand_Illusion
06-25-2012, 04:55 PM
If he would have watched the videos it would have meant that he would have to change his stance as it disproved much of his continual commentary.

It is pretty damaging if even half of what they claim is true. Makes you wonder if Fast & Furious was intended to be an assault on our 2nd Amendment. At the very least, with so many deaths, it's incompetence and how high does it go. Americans deserve to know that answer.

Otter
06-25-2012, 05:00 PM
Racism!!!

Has this little gumdrop been worn out yet or is there still some gas left in the tank?

HonestChieffan
06-25-2012, 06:21 PM
Racism!!!

Has this little gumdrop been worn out yet or is there still some gas left in the tank?

Thegumdrop in the whitehouse sure seems worried

cosmo20002
06-25-2012, 06:32 PM
It is pretty damaging if even half of what they claim is true.

ROFL
You have set a high bar what you find acceptable--if even half is true?

Problem is, none of it is. All been debunked. You keep ignoring that the Selective Service people said it wasn't true.

So when I dropped off a package earlier, I asked the clerk if someone drops off a Seclective Service card, do they have a special time stamp for it. She looked confused and said they just use their regular stamp. The guy at the next register overheard and said, "What, you mean that Obama thing with the stamp on his card?" He said it wasn't true and they have always just used the regular stamp, that it has varied over the years, and even when they alter the design, they keep using the old one until it wears out.

HonestChieffan
06-25-2012, 06:36 PM
What does selective service who administers the draft have to do with anydamnthing

RaiderH8r
06-25-2012, 06:39 PM
Obama lied. Brian Terry died.

Cut. Dry. Done. F this administration.

cosmo20002
06-25-2012, 06:44 PM
What does selective service who administers the draft have to do with anydamnthing

You are not keeping up with the latest nutjob news. Among other things, the birthers say that Omaba's Selective Service card is forged.

cosmo20002
06-25-2012, 06:46 PM
Obama lied. Brian Terry died.

Cut. Dry. Done. F this administration.

Even if he lied, which there is absolutely no evidence of, how did that lead to Brian Terry dying--considering that the lie would have happened after his death?

mlyonsd
06-25-2012, 07:11 PM
Even if he lied, which there is absolutely no evidence of, how did that lead to Brian Terry dying--considering that the lie would have happened after his death?Nixon didn't know about the Watergate break in until after it happened.

And nobody died in that fiasco.

But I agree, there is no evidence the WH knew what was going on before Terry's death. I do think the family should have full disclosure however. The thought we might damage national security if everything is disclosed is crazy considering how much our border protection is failing.

The_Grand_Illusion
06-25-2012, 07:16 PM
ROFL
You have set a high bar what you find acceptable--if even half is true?

Problem is, none of it is. All been debunked. You keep ignoring that the Selective Service people said it wasn't true.

So when I dropped off a package earlier, I asked the clerk if someone drops off a Seclective Service card, do they have a special time stamp for it. She looked confused and said they just use their regular stamp. The guy at the next register overheard and said, "What, you mean that Obama thing with the stamp on his card?" He said it wasn't true and they have always just used the regular stamp, that it has varied over the years, and even when they alter the design, they keep using the old one until it wears out.

Debunked only in your corrupt liberal democrat world and every day it exposes itself as more and more corrupt. Remember he said he’d fundamentally change America Well, it definitely hasn’t been for the better. The deaths from F&F are terrible but you trying to downplay them is just as terrible. You are some piece of work.

I made it easy for you to look at the video and see the different PIKA stamps from that era and close to Obama’s date on his Selective Service card. They even had 2 from the SAME POST OFFICE WITHIN A FEW DAYS of when Obama submitted his. Even those had 4 digits in the date stamp. Of course, you watched the video so you would have known.

:rolleyes:

CoMoChief
06-25-2012, 07:18 PM
This is a guy that has a lot of his past black marked and erased from public view and we're supposed to believe who this guy says he is?

cosmo20002
06-25-2012, 07:45 PM
This is a guy that has a lot of his past black marked and erased from public view and we're supposed to believe who this guy says he is?

Amazing how these same claims keep coming back every few days. None are true, but they just keep coming back. The he had stuff "erased" is an interesting one since if stuff was "erased" how did anyone find it? And if info wasn't found, but it is only alleged to exist and was erased, how would someone prove otherwise (that the info never existed in the first place)?

CoMoChief
06-25-2012, 07:47 PM
Amazing how these same claims keep coming back every few days. None are true, but they just keep coming back. The he had stuff "erased" is an interesting one since if stuff was "erased" how did anyone find it? And if info wasn't found, but it is only alleged to exist and was erased, how would someone prove otherwise (that the info never existed in the first place)?

erased maybe was a poor choice of words....sealed is more like it.

Let me ask you this....do you know who BO's father is?

cosmo20002
06-25-2012, 08:08 PM
erased maybe was a poor choice of words....sealed is more like it.

Let me ask you this....do you know who BO's father is?

Sealed is also not true.

Yes, I know who his father is, and I assume you say it is Frank Marshall Davis. Even if it was true, I don't see how it is relevant.

CoMoChief
06-26-2012, 01:01 PM
You are not keeping up with the latest nutjob news. Among other things, the birthers say that Omaba's Selective Service card is forged.

Can you provide proof that it's not? Because the proof has been shown that it is a forgery.

What's hilarious is that this is the first president where we really don't know his past. Even with other liberals like Gore or Clinton, we're able to look into their past. Obama has all of his records sealed away from the public and has him surrounded by lawyers to protect that info.

The_Grand_Illusion
06-26-2012, 01:01 PM
Racism!!!

Has this little gumdrop been worn out yet or is there still some gas left in the tank?

Apparently so. As a minority, this gets so old anytime the left doesn't like something, they scream racism if they can use it. Never mind, what happened was so wrong and hundreds died as a result of this botched program.

http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2012/06/26/predictable_civil_rights_leaders_pull_race_card_to_defend_eric_holder


Predictable: Civil Rights "Leaders" Pull Race Card to Defend Eric Holder

Katie Pavlich
News Editor, Townhall

Jun 26, 2012 01:40 PM EST

When you have no facts to base an argument on, pull the race card. That's the worn out tactic of civil rights "leaders" like Rev. Al Sharpton and NAACP President Ben Jealous who are fully defending Attorney General Eric Holder in his handling of the Fast and Furious scandal while leaving the family of murdered Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry smothered in the dirt. Last week Nancy Pelosi made the ridiculous argument that the only reason Chairman of the House Oversight Committee Darrell Issa is investigating Operation Fast and Furious and proceeding with a full House contempt vote on Thursday is because Republicans want to suppress the vote of minorities and Holder is the person who "prevents that from happening."

“They’re going after Eric Holder because he is supporting measures to overturn these voter-suppression initiatives in the states,” she told reporters.

Now, Sharpton, Jealous and others are also running with that argument.


First of all, two can play the race game. If Holder and his race card cronies like Sharpton want to play the race game, let's play. Let's talk about the 300+ dead Mexicans as a result of the Holder Justice Department's Operation Fast and Furious. Even Holder is willing to admit more innocents will be murdered as a result of this program. Second, the Attorney General can be replaced, Holder isn't the only guy who can "prevent" what Nancy Pelosi sees as the suppression of the minority vote. In fact, you could argue Obama is keeping Holder around to sue states for Voter I.D. laws while turning a blind eye to voter fraud. Third, this isn't about voting, this is about getting to the bottom a bloody scandal that President Obama, Eric Holder, Nancy Pelosi and now Rev. Al and others are more than happy to cover up. Liberals are trying desperately, as they always do, to turn Holder into the victim here, when he isn't a victim at all, he's the problem. They're also trying desperately to throw out a distraction like voting that has nothing to do with the Fast and Furious scandal in order to take as much attention away from the facts as possible. Fact: Holder received multiple Fast and Furious memos dated July and August 2010, yet says he only knew about the program for a "few weeks" in May 2011. Fact: Holder has changed his testimony over and over again under oath. Fact: Holder refused to turn over more documents related to the program. Fact: Documents Holder has turned over are either partially or completely redacted. Fact: Holder's number two man at DOJ, Lanny Breuer, approved six Fast and Furious wiretap applications, yet Holder still claims his senior officials knew nothing of the program while it was active. Fact: Holder claims he ended Fast and Furious. The program ended in December 2010, yet he says he didn't know about the program until May 2011. Fact: Eric Holder, who is black, is one of the most powerful men in the world.

mikey23545
06-26-2012, 01:13 PM
If this was a Republican administration, daytime tv would echo with the same question over and over, hour after hour, day after day - "What did you know and when did you know it?"

The_Grand_Illusion
06-26-2012, 01:21 PM
If this was a Republican administration, daytime tv would echo with the same question over and over, hour after hour, day after day - "What did you know and when did you know it?"

Oh indeed, and just shows what hypocrites their whole damn corrupt culture has become.

What ever they are hiding, Hot Air is reporting a poll that only 29% of the polled approved of Obama using Executive Privilege in this matter. If this administration knew it wouldn’t poll well, what is so important they are hiding?

cosmo20002
06-26-2012, 01:38 PM
Can you provide proof that it's not? Because the proof has been shown that it is a forgery.

What's hilarious is that this is the first president where we really don't know his past. Even with other liberals like Gore or Clinton, we're able to look into their past. Obama has all of his records sealed away from the public and has him surrounded by lawyers to protect that info.

Selective Service says it is not a forgery and it was submitted properly and on time.

We do know his past. He's had nothing sealed.

vailpass
06-26-2012, 01:47 PM
I blame it all on obama's slutty mother.

go bowe
06-26-2012, 08:35 PM
I blame it all on obama's slutty mother.

he had a mother?

mikey23545
06-26-2012, 08:55 PM
We do know his past. He's had nothing sealed.

You're either delusional or an absolute liar, Orange.

cosmo20002
06-26-2012, 09:04 PM
You're either delusional or an absolute liar, Orange.

Which part of his life do you feel you don't know about? And if your response has anything to do with his childhood, the next question will be, "Why is it relevant?"

And what do you think has been "sealed?" And don't respond with something that isn't normally publicly-available information.

mikey23545
06-26-2012, 09:07 PM
http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/3773/ogump01.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/684/ogump01.jpg/)

mikey23545
06-26-2012, 09:10 PM
Which part of his life do you feel you don't know about? And if your response has anything to do with his childhood, the next question will be, "Why is it relevant?"

And what do you think has been "sealed?" And don't respond with something that isn't normally publicly-available information.

He refuses to release any of his college transcripts because he was an affirmative action baby all the way through college, and can't even read a teleprompter these days.

And I love the "why is it relevant" question which you feel gives you the right to disavow any questioning of his sealed past...LMAO

You are too much, O...LMAO

cosmo20002
06-26-2012, 09:29 PM
He refuses to release any of his college transcripts because he was an affirmative action baby all the way through college, and can't even read a teleprompter these days.

And I love the "why is it relevant" question which you feel gives you the right to disavow any questioning of his sealed past...LMAO

You are too much, O...LMAO

So, you can't name anything he has had sealed. His transcripts have been "sealed" the same way yours have been "sealed." Assuming you attended some sort of school, they probably won't give me your records if I ask for them. So, I guess you had them "sealed."

You didn't answer what part of his life you feel you don't know enough about, but I'm asking why you think such information is relevant. Asssuming we don't know enough about 10-year-old Barrack, why do you think that is important?

As for his education, we know he graduated magna cum laude from Harvard Law School, was president of the law review, and was a Con Law professor at a top law school. His grades were probably pretty damn good, at least in law school. Why is it relevant what grade he got in Freshman English or Math at Occidental College?

CoMoChief
06-26-2012, 09:50 PM
So, you can't name anything he has had sealed. His transcripts have been "sealed" the same way yours have been "sealed." Assuming you attended some sort of school, they probably won't give me your records if I ask for them. So, I guess you had them "sealed."

You didn't answer what part of his life you feel you don't know enough about, but I'm asking why you think such information is relevant. Asssuming we don't know enough about 10-year-old Barrack, why do you think that is important?

As for his education, we know he graduated magna cum laude from Harvard Law School, was president of the law review, and was a Con Law professor at a top law school. His grades were probably pretty damn good, at least in law school. Why is it relevant what grade he got in Freshman English or Math at Occidental College?

Because with Obama's sketchy background when you open one door, then 4-5 more doors open. Funny how all of this info we've been able to get from almost every other president if not all, but Obama seals much of his records? ROFL

For instance, who paid for Obama's education at Harvard? How did he get in, because pre-college reports were that Obama wasn't that great of a student, or one that would be considered to be accepted at Harvard.

The guy has DUAL CITIZENSHIP in Indonesia whenever he went to private school there. That's documented....AND it's direct violation of the constitution to hold office of the POTUS.

J Diddy
06-26-2012, 09:55 PM
Because with Obama's sketchy background when you open one door, then 4-5 more doors open. Funny how all of this info we've been able to get from almost every other president if not all, but Obama seals much of his records? ROFL

For instance, who paid for Obama's education at Harvard? How did he get in, because pre-college reports were that Obama wasn't that great of a student, or one that would be considered to be accepted at Harvard.

The guy has DUAL CITIZENSHIP in Indonesia whenever he went to private school there. That's documented....AND it's direct violation of the constitution to hold office of the POTUS.

Could you please show me where in the constitution that it explicitly states one can not have dual citizenship for the office of the presidency?

Furthermore, all you're looking for is mud to throw and are getting annoyed that he's not handing it over.

cosmo20002
06-26-2012, 10:03 PM
Because with Obama's sketchy background when you open one door, then 4-5 more doors open. Funny how all of this info we've been able to get from almost every other president if not all, but Obama seals much of his records? ROFL

For instance, who paid for Obama's education at Harvard? How did he get in, because pre-college reports were that Obama wasn't that great of a student, or one that would be considered to be accepted at Harvard.

The guy has DUAL CITIZENSHIP in Indonesia whenever he went to private school there. That's documented....AND it's direct violation of the constitution to hold office of the POTUS.

Its only "sketchy" because you say it is based on some absurd standard invented when he became president. And again you use the term "sealed." Yet no one can tell me what has been sealed. You got anything? Anyone got anything?

Obama had loans for law school. But this 'who paid?' stuff is just bizarre. Has 'who paid?' been asked of any other president? No--no one cared, and what difference would it make?

The dual citizenship thing is completely false, but I'm sure that won't stop you from repeating it.

VAChief
06-27-2012, 05:11 PM
I see the usual Klavern pinheads are assembling predictably.

mnchiefsguy
06-28-2012, 01:20 PM
Anything new on this? Have they held Holder in contempt yet?

stonedstooge
06-28-2012, 01:23 PM
Anything new on this? Have they held Holder in contempt yet?

1st vote carried. Debating the 2nd vote now. I think the walkout is supposed to occur here in about 20 minutes

Pitt Gorilla
06-28-2012, 01:32 PM
<div style="background-color:#000000;width:520px;"><div style="padding:4px;"><iframe src="http://media.mtvnservices.com/embed/mgid:cms:video:thedailyshow.com:415890" width="512" height="288" frameborder="0"></iframe><p style="text-align:left;background-color:#FFFFFF;padding:4px;margin-top:4px;margin-bottom:0px;font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12px;"><b><a href="http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/tue-june-26-2012/the-wrath-of-cons---operation-fast-and-furious">The Daily Show with Jon Stewart</a></b><br/>Get More: <a href='http://www.thedailyshow.com/full-episodes/'>Daily Show Full Episodes</a>,<a href='http://www.indecisionforever.com/'>Political Humor & Satire Blog</a>,<a href='http://www.facebook.com/thedailyshow'>The Daily Show on Facebook</a></p></div></div>

stonedstooge
06-28-2012, 01:39 PM
Pelosi just finished her speech. The lady is fucking insane

Ugly Duck
06-28-2012, 02:10 PM
Fast and Furious is turning into President Obama's Watergate

Not Obama's Watergate, Obama's Whitewater. Just another fishing expedition by Republis to begin an endless search for anything they can construe as untoward. The program was started by the Bush administration & ended by the Obama admin, but the Republis who started all this are not even being questioned. Election year Republi shenanigans, nothing more.

Iowanian
06-28-2012, 02:57 PM
You're right.

Because I have nothing to hide, I have provided my college transcripts to potential employers, professional certification organizations and others in the past 15 years when it has been requested.

It takes a phone call and a credit card number.

People only seal their records if there is information in them that is embarrassing.

Interestingly enough, CosmoJAZZ....people like you were very much interested in Bush's college transcripts.


So, you can't name anything he has had sealed. His transcripts have been "sealed" the same way yours have been "sealed." Assuming you attended some sort of school, they probably won't give me your records if I ask for them. So, I guess you had them "sealed."

You didn't answer what part of his life you feel you don't know enough about, but I'm asking why you think such information is relevant. Asssuming we don't know enough about 10-year-old Barrack, why do you think that is important?

As for his education, we know he graduated magna cum laude from Harvard Law School, was president of the law review, and was a Con Law professor at a top law school. His grades were probably pretty damn good, at least in law school. Why is it relevant what grade he got in Freshman English or Math at Occidental College?

vailpass
06-28-2012, 03:02 PM
sameshitsameshitsameshitsameshitobamagoodrepublibadobamagoodrepublibadsameshitsameshitsameshitsamesh itobamagoodrepublibadobamagoodrepublibadsameshitsameshitsameshitsameshitobamagoodrepublibadobamagood republibadsameshitsameshitsameshitsameshitobamagoodrepublibadobamagoodrepublibadsameshitsameshitsame shitsameshitobamagoodrepublibadobamagoodrepublibadsameshitsameshitsameshitsameshitobamagoodrepubliba dobamagoodrepublibadsameshitsameshitsameshitsameshitobamagoodrepublibadobamagoodrepublibadsameshitsa meshitsameshitsameshitobamagoodrepublibadobamagoodrepublibad

Always enlightening....

Bewbies
06-28-2012, 03:03 PM
Not Obama's Watergate, Obama's Whitewater. Just another fishing expedition by Republis to begin an endless search for anything they can construe as untoward. The program was started by the Bush administration & ended by the Obama admin, but the Republis who started all this are not even being questioned. Election year Republi shenanigans, nothing more.

Wrong. Completely, embarrassing wrong. LMAO

Bush's idiotic expedition ended in 2007, when they realized the cartel had found the RFID chips and were taking them out of the guns. Bush admin and Mexican gov't worked together.

Obama started up a new op, without Mexican cooperation, without any way to track these guns. They literally walked machine guns across an international border, gave them to criminals, tons of people got killed, and people act like nothing happened.

Bush sought to track criminals, Obama sought to arm them (obviously so they would use the guns in crimes)

Bush tried to catch criminals before they could commit more crimes, Obama armed them so they could commit more.

Same thing. :shake:

cosmo20002
06-28-2012, 03:08 PM
People only seal their records if there is information in them that is embarrassing.

Interestingly enough, CosmoJAZZ....people like you were very much interested in Bush's college transcripts.

I find it amazing that an adult human does not know the meaning of the word "sealed."

I didn't give a shit about W's transcript. I knew he was a moron without it. And he didn't release (or I guess as you would say he had them sealed) them--they were leaked without his permission.

VAChief
06-28-2012, 03:59 PM
<div style="background-color:#000000;width:520px;"><div style="padding:4px;"><iframe src="http://media.mtvnservices.com/embed/mgid:cms:video:thedailyshow.com:415890" width="512" height="288" frameborder="0"></iframe><p style="text-align:left;background-color:#FFFFFF;padding:4px;margin-top:4px;margin-bottom:0px;font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12px;"><b><a href="http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/tue-june-26-2012/the-wrath-of-cons---operation-fast-and-furious">The Daily Show with Jon Stewart</a></b><br/>Get More: <a href='http://www.thedailyshow.com/full-episodes/'>Daily Show Full Episodes</a>,<a href='http://www.indecisionforever.com/'>Political Humor & Satire Blog</a>,<a href='http://www.facebook.com/thedailyshow'>The Daily Show on Facebook</a></p></div></div>

Good stuff!

Ultra Peanut
06-28-2012, 04:01 PM
"Guns don't kill people, Obama kills people."

SHINE ON YOU CRAZY DIAMONDS

ForeverChiefs58
06-28-2012, 06:49 PM
THE BIGGEST SCANDAL IN U.S. HISTORY

Forget executive privilege, contempt of Congress, "fast and furious," how many documents the government has produced and who said what to whom on which date.


The Obama administration has almost certainly engaged in the most shockingly vile corruption scandal in the history of the country, not counting the results of Season Eight on "American Idol."

Administration officials intentionally put guns into the hands of Mexican drug cartels, so that when the guns taken from Mexican crime scenes turned out to be American guns, Democrats would have a reason to crack down on gun sellers in the United States.


Democrats will never stop trying to take our guns away. They see something more lethal than a salad shooter and wet themselves.


But since their party was thrown out of Congress for the first time in nearly half a century as a result of passing the 1994 "assault weapons ban," even liberals know they're going to need a really good argument to pass any limitation on guns ever again.


So it's curious that Democrats all started telling the same lie about guns as soon as Obama became president. In March 2009, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton announced to reporters on a trip to Mexico: "Since we know that the vast majority, 90 percent of that weaponry (used by Mexican drug cartels), comes from our country, we are going to try to stop it from getting there in the first place."

As she sentimentally elaborated on Fox News' Greta Van Susteren show: "The guns sold in the United States, which are illegal in Mexico, get smuggled and shipped across our border and arm these terrible drug-dealing criminals so that they can outgun these poor police officers along the border and elsewhere in Mexico."

Suddenly that 90 percent statistic was everywhere. It was like the statistic on women beaten by their husbands on Super Bowl Sunday.


CBS' Bob Schieffer asked Obama on "Face the Nation": "It's my understanding that 90 percent of the guns that they're getting down in Mexico are coming from the United States. We don't seem to be doing a very good job of cutting off the gun flow. Do you need any kind of legislative help on that front? Have you, for example, thought about asking Congress to reinstate the ban on assault weapons?"

At a Senate hearing, Sen. Dianne Feinstein, D-Calif., said: "It is unacceptable to have 90 percent of the guns that are picked up in Mexico and used to shoot judges, police officers and mayors ... come from the United States."

And then, thanks to Fox News -- the first network to report it -- we found out the 90 percent figure was complete bunkum. It was a fabrication told by William Hoover, of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (BATF), and then spread like wildfire by Democrats and the media.


Mexican law enforcement authorities send only a fraction of the guns they recover from criminals back to the U.S. for tracing. Which guns do they send? The guns that have U.S. serial numbers on them. It would be like asking a library to produce all their Mark Twain books and then concluding that 90 percent of the books in that library are by Mark Twain.


You begin to see why the left hates Fox News so much.


Obama backed away from the preposterous 90 percent claim. His National Security Council spokesman explained to Fox News that by "recovered," they meant "guns traceable to the United States." So, in other words, Democrats were frantically citing the amazing fact that almost all the guns traceable to the U.S. were ... traceable to the U.S.


Attorney General Eric Holder told reporters that even if the percentage is inaccurate, the "vast majority" of guns seized in crimes in Mexico come from the United States. (And he should know, because it turns out he was sending them there!)


This was an absurd claim. Most of the guns used by drug cartels are automatic weapons -- not to mention shoulder-fired rockets -- that can't be sold to most Americans. They are acquired from places like Russia, China and Guatemala.


Right about the time the 90 percent lie was unraveling, the Obama administration decided to directly hand thousands of American guns over to Mexican criminals. Apart from the fact that tracking thousands of guns into Mexico is not feasible or rational, the dumped guns didn't have GPS tracing devices on them, anyway. There is no conceivable law enforcement objective to such a program.


This is what we know:


(1) Liberals thought it would be a great argument for gun control if American guns were ending up in the hands of Mexican criminals;


(2) They wanted that to be true so badly, Democrats lied about it;


(3) After they were busted on their lie, the Obama administration began dumping thousands of guns in the hands of Mexican criminals.


We also know that hundreds of people were murdered with these U.S.-government-supplied guns, including at least one American, U.S. Border Patrol agent Brian Terry.


But let's look on the bright side. The BATF was originally going to ship warheads to Iran until realizing the explosions might disable the tracking devices.


(Contrary to more Democrat lies, there was no program to dump thousands of guns in Mexico under George W. Bush. The Bush administration did have a program that put GPS trackers on about 100 guns in order to actually trace them. That operation was ended almost as soon as it began because of the lack of cooperation from Mexican officials. You may as well say Holder's program was "started" by the first cop who ever put tracer dye on contraband.)


No one has explained what putting 2,500 untraceable guns in the hands of Mexican drug dealers was supposed to accomplish.


But you know what that might have accomplished? It would make the Democrats' lie retroactively true -- allowing them to push for the same gun restrictions they were planning when they first concocted it. A majority of guns recovered from Mexican criminals would, at last, be American guns, because Eric Holder had put them there.


Unfortunately for the Democrats, some brave whistleblower inside the government leaked details of this monstrous scheme. As soon as Congress and the public demanded answers, Holder clammed up. He just says "oops" -- and accuses Republicans of racism.

cosmo20002
06-28-2012, 06:55 PM
THE BIGGEST SCANDAL IN U.S. HISTORY

This is what we know:

(1) Liberals thought it would be a great argument for gun control if American guns were ending up in the hands of Mexican criminals;


(2) They wanted that to be true so badly, Democrats lied about it;


(3) After they were busted on their lie, the Obama administration began dumping thousands of guns in the hands of Mexican criminals.


Yeah, not true. Kook. :tinfoil:

Iz Zat Chew
06-28-2012, 07:11 PM
Yeah, not true. Kook. :tinfoil:

Actually it was more true than your explanation. Open your frigging eyes.

Ugly Duck
06-28-2012, 10:53 PM
Bush sought to track criminals, Obama sought to arm them

http://i25.tinypic.com/103tok7.jpg

http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/2/687fea91677be9103defb8dc0b97e8b7.gif

http://i509.photobucket.com/albums/s332/oceancurrents/__009worffacepalm.gif

http://i895.photobucket.com/albums/ac159/GIFsforhire/Facepalm/woody.gif

http://i1085.photobucket.com/albums/j427/cpopictures/Facepalm-Moving.gif

Mr. Laz
06-28-2012, 10:58 PM
GOP Votes for Contempt as "Fast and Furious" Blows Up in Its Face


—By Adam Weinstein (http://www.motherjones.com/authors/adam-weinstein)
| Thu Jun. 28, 2012 11:08 AM PDTTweet (http://twitter.com/share)

http://www.motherjones.com/files/images/gunrunning.jpg

How are tons of US guns getting to Mexico? Ask conservatives. Flickr/Brian.ch (http://www.flickr.com/photos/zomgitsbrian/3657354193/sizes/o/in/photostream/)The "Fast and Furious" imbroglio may have just gone sideways on House Republicans. Just prior to them leading a House vote for contempt (http://issues.oversight.house.gov/fastandfurious/)against Attorney General Eric Holder on Thursday, a far-reaching investigation published by Fortune magazine (http://features.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2012/06/27/fast-and-furious-truth/) poked major holes in the conservative storyline about the alleged gun operation. Claims that law enforcement engaged in a deadly plot to let Mexican outlaws smuggle US guns, the magazine reports, are based on allegations by a lone whistleblower who may in fact be the only person who did any illegal gun-smuggling. The real cause of violence and crime south of the border, it reports, is lax gun laws in Arizona and elsewhere pushed by Republicans and their friends at the National Rifle Association.


To review the allegations in brief: Agents from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (ATF) supposedly recruited local sellers in Arizona to hawk guns to known smugglers, then monitored the flow of those guns to criminal gangs in Mexico in the hopes of catching "big fish," in a tactic known as "gunwalking" (as opposed to "gun-running"). Two of these ATF-monitored assault weapons ended up at the crime scene where Brian Terry, a US Border Patrol agent, was shot and killed in December 2010. An ATF agent with a crisis of conscience blew the whistle on the operation, dubbed Fast and Furious, and Republicans in Congress began asking questions.

Now, Rep. Darrell Issa (R-Calif.), chairman of the House government oversight committee, suspects the White House of involvement in the affair, and has demanded the administration turn over scores of internal communications. The White House has acknowledged that mistakes were made and turned over (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/06/21/what-is-operation-fast-and-furious-11-questions-answers.html) more than 7,600 pages of documents related to the case. But Issa demanded another 100,000 pages of internal administration communications, and President Obama invoked executive privilege to keep the documents confidential. Issa responded by pursuing the contempt-of-Congress vote against Holder—the first ever against a sitting attorney general—on the notion that DOJ screwed up on Holder's watch.

According to Fortune, though, almost everything about the story that Republicans have been flogging is wrong. And the magazine makes the case that the GOP's allegations against Holder and the Obama administration aren't just inaccurate—rather, they distract from the possibility that GOP's politics are actually to blame for the deluge of three-quarters of a million American guns per year into Mexico. "Republicans who support the National Rifle Association and its attempts to weaken gun laws are lambasting ATF agents for not seizing enough weapons—ones that, in this case, prosecutors deemed to be legal," the report states.

"Republican senators are whipping up the country into a psychotic frenzy with these reports that are patently false," Linda Wallace, an IRS agent who worked on the Fast and Furious team and calls herself a "gun-rights supporter," told Fortune. Could Fast and Furious be a new Climategate (http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2011/04/history-of-climategate), the next fact-free conservative conspiracy (http://www.motherjones.com/special-reports/2011/04/fact-free-nation) that takes roost in America's collective unconscious?

The Fortune exposé, which reporter Katherine Eban (http://katherineeban.com/) says took her six months to assemble, is exhaustive and tough to summarize, but its highlights are these:

Advertise on MotherJones.com (http://www.motherjones.com/about/advertising/contact-form)

Contrary to the narrative advanced by conservative bloggers and politicians, the federal government did not intentionally allow the sale of any guns to Mexican bandits.

Seven ATF agents based in Phoenix were tasked with trying to stop the "river of iron"—2,000 American guns crossing into Mexico every day. (Those sales represent millions of dollars a week to gun manufacturers—who are major donors to the NRA's lobbying efforts (http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/06/nra-alec-stand-your-ground).)



Their job was hard, because there's no federal law against gun trafficking, there's no electronic database of gun purchases, and you can buy as many guns as you want in Arizona, and resell them to anyone, anytime—all thanks to the NRA and pro-gun lobbyists. "In Arizona," says Dave Voth, the ATF agent who ran the Phoenix operation, "someone buying three guns is like someone buying a sandwich."



The agents watched dozens of people roll in and buy lots of guns from one of Phoenix's 853 licensed sellers, but they were powerless to stop them—thanks to lax gun laws, federal prosecutors said they couldn't arrest the buyers, even when they turned around and dumped the guns on other people (so-called "straw purchases"). The best the agents could do was try to slow down the purchases and watch where the guns went. (One prosecutor, Emory Hurley, was reportedly a gun enthusiast, and agents muttered that his love for the Second Amendment made him reluctant to go after straw purchasers.)



This: "After examining one suspect's garbage, agents learned he was on food stamps yet had plunked down more than $300,000 for 476 firearms in six months. Voth asked if the ATF could arrest him for fraudulently accepting public assistance when he was spending such huge sums. Prosecutor Hurley said no. In another instance, a young jobless suspect paid more than $10,000 for a 50-caliber tripod-mounted sniper rifle. According to Voth, Hurley told the agents they lacked proof that he hadn't bought the gun for himself."



ATF agents did not recruit anyone to buy weapons and pass them to criminals, with a single exception: John Dodson, the renegade agent who allegedly blew the whistle on the "Fast & Furious" operation. Against Voth's express instructions, Dodson—who according to Fortune's account was a seemingly insubordinate, slapdash former narcotics cop from Virginia that even his ex-partner describes as "an asshole"—"used $2,500 in ATF funds to purchase six AK Draco pistols from local gun dealers," then passed them on to a suspected gun trafficker, then...went on vacation. (Incidentally, this is what an AK Draco looks like:

http://www.motherjones.com/files/images/dracoch.jpg

AK Draco Slickguns.comIt's a modified, semiautomatic AK-47 carbine with the buttstock removed. Under the Clinton-era Brady Assault Weapons Ban, which was allowed to expire in 2004, this gun would have been illegal for sale in the US.)


In January 2011, Dodson—again, the only ATF agent who had ever actually passed guns to a suspected trafficker, according to Fortune—told a very different story to staffers for Sen. Chuck Grassley (R-Iowa) and CBS News. Selling himself as a "whistleblower," he alleged that his bosses had systematically sold guns to smugglers. He reportedly told ATF supervisors that his agency boss "had always 'treated him like shit' and that it 'felt good' to speak with someone outside ATF."

From there, the right-wing blogosphere—which tends to regard the ATF as a bunch of jackbooted thugs—took over, spinning Dodson into a heroic whistleblower and pretending that his very small transaction was part of a very large conspiracy by the Department of Justice. Issa and Grassley have since taken up the crusade on Capitol Hill and tied it to Obama. "We got a lie, we got a cover-up," Issa said last weekend (http://www.politico.com//blogs/politico-live/2012/06/issa-we-got-a-lie-we-got-a-coverup-from-doj-127110.html) on Meet the Press.
But Fortune's investigation puts the lie to that claim, and suggests the scandal is really about how gun-proponents have hogtied ATF agents and federal and state prosecutors in their efforts to halt fishy gun purchases. It's long been a problem: Back in 2007, I wrote about supposed diplomats from the war-torn Democratic Republic of Congo buying boxes of hand cannons from a notorious gun shop in New York City (http://www.villagevoice.com/2007-10-16/news/diplomats-and-guns/) and disappearing with them. After that story was published, a New York-based ATF agent told me that the government was aware of multiple such purchases, but had no power to stop them.
Today, things appear to be no better. As Fortune reports, the ATF's Dave Voth gnashed his teeth looking for ways to stop sketchy gun buyers without running afoul of the Second Amendment crowd. Emailing a colleague about that unemployed guy with the .50-cal sniper rifle, he wrote: "We conducted a field interview and after calling the AUSA [assistant US attorney] he said we did not have sufficient PC [probable cause] to take the firearm so our suspect drove home with said firearm in his car...any ideas on how we could not let that firearm 'walk'?"
Plenty of questions remain. If the magazine's report is true, then why did Eric Holder and the White House ever issue any public mea culpas? Will Issa and the GOP completely dismiss the Fortune investigation? (If this response from Grassley (http://www.grassley.senate.gov/news/Article.cfm?customel_dataPageID_1502=41536) is any indication, the answer to that question is yes.) And will the role of lax gun control in arms-smuggling give any Republicans pause? Wednesday night on CNN, Soledad O'Brien gave the third degree (http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2012/06/27/new-fast-and-furious-investigation/) to Rep. John Mica (R-Fla.)—one of the White House's biggest critics on the Fast and the Furious. (See the video below.) She asked Mica why Republicans wanted reams of classified White House communications, but were deadset against a database for gun sales. Mica sputtered. Until they come up with an answer, Republicans' attempts to pin this debacle on the administration will likely sputter, too.

VAChief
06-29-2012, 07:12 AM
Fortune has cut through most of the BS that even CBS fell prey to at the insistence of Grassley and Issa. They suck at the tit of the NRA and go on the offensive when someone farts too loud and suggest they go outside with that weapon.

mlyonsd
06-29-2012, 07:22 AM
JFC we armed criminal gangs in a neighboring country basically knowing they'd use them to murder their own fellow citizens, as well as knowing the possibility existed US citizens could be killed as well.

For something that stupid the entire paper trail should be made public and let the chips fall where they may.

This is just as big a deal as Iran/Contra and bigger than Plame or the US Attorney scandal. And if you were whining about the last two in this forum you sure as hell are hypocritical if you're not whining about this scandal.

stonedstooge
06-29-2012, 07:26 AM
Watched the debates on this yesterday. Guess who the Democrats blamed for all of this during arguments? You guessed it. BUSH'S FAULT. HE STARTED IT

VAChief
06-29-2012, 07:40 AM
JFC we armed criminal gangs in a neighboring country basically knowing they'd use them to murder their own fellow citizens, as well as knowing the possibility existed US citizens could be killed as well.

For something that stupid the entire paper trail should be made public and let the chips fall where they may.

This is just as big a deal as Iran/Contra and bigger than Plame or the US Attorney scandal. And if you were whining about the last two in this forum you sure as hell are hypocritical if you're not whining about this scandal.

There are 6,600 licensed gun dealers within 100 miles of the Mexican border. Below is an excerpt from the Fortune investigation.

http://features.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2012/06/27/fast-and-furious-truth/

Phoenix-based ATF agents became so frustrated by prosecutors' intransigence that, in a highly unusual move, they began bringing big cases to the state attorney general's office instead. Terry Goddard, Arizona's Attorney General from 2003 to 2011, says of federal prosecutors, "They demanded that every i be dotted, every t be crossed, and after a while, it got to be nonsensical."
For prosecutors, straw-purchasing cases were hard to prove and unrewarding to prosecute, with minimal penalties attached. In December 2010, five U.S. Attorneys along the Southwest border, including Burke in Arizona, wrote to the U.S. Sentencing Commission, asking that penalties for straw purchasing be increased. The commission did increase the recommended jail time by a few months. But because the straw purchasers, by definition, have no criminal record and there is no firearms-trafficking statute that would allow prosecutors to charge them with conspiracy as a group, the penalties remain low.
Prosecutors repeatedly rebuffed Voth's requests. After examining one suspect's garbage, agents learned he was on food stamps yet had plunked down more than $300,000 for 476 firearms in six months. Voth asked if the ATF could arrest him for fraudulently accepting public assistance when he was spending such huge sums. Prosecutor Hurley said no. In another instance, a young jobless suspect paid more than $10,000 for a 50-caliber tripod-mounted sniper rifle. According to Voth, Hurley told the agents they lacked proof that he hadn't bought the gun for himself.
Voth grew deeply frustrated. In August 2010, after the ATF in Texas confiscated 80 guns—63 of them purchased in Arizona by the Fast and Furious suspects— Voth got an e-mail from a colleague there: "Are you all planning to stop some of these guys any time soon? That's a lot of guns…Are you just letting these guns walk?"
Voth responded with barely suppressed rage: "Have I offended you in some way? Because I am very offended by your e-mail. Define walk? Without Probable Cause and concurrence from the USAO [U.S. Attorney's Office] it is highway robbery if we take someone's property." He then recounted the situation with the unemployed suspect who had bought the sniper rifle. "We conducted a field interview and after calling the AUSA [assistant U.S. Attorney] he said we did not have sufficient PC [probable cause] to take the firearm so our suspect drove home with said firearm in his car…any ideas on how we could not let that firearm 'walk'"?

The irony (and hypocrisy) is that Grassley and Issa, two huge NRA gun advocates are critical of federal agents for letting guns "walk" when it is the policies (or lack thereof) that hamstring their efforts. Nice spin if you don't think anyone will actually bother to look into it further.

Radar Chief
06-29-2012, 07:45 AM
Watched the debates on this yesterday. Guess who the Democrats blamed for all of this during arguments? You guessed it. BUSH'S FAULT. HE STARTED IT

But of course. They’ve already got their main mouthpiece on the job.

<div style="background-color:#000000;width:520px;"><div style="padding:4px;"><iframe src="http://media.mtvnservices.com/embed/mgid:cms:video:thedailyshow.com:415890" width="512" height="288" frameborder="0"></iframe><p style="text-align:left;background-color:#FFFFFF;padding:4px;margin-top:4px;margin-bottom:0px;font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12px;"><b><a href="http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/tue-june-26-2012/the-wrath-of-cons---operation-fast-and-furious">The Daily Show with Jon Stewart</a></b><br/>Get More: <a href='http://www.thedailyshow.com/full-episodes/'>Daily Show Full Episodes</a>,<a href='http://www.indecisionforever.com/'>Political Humor & Satire Blog</a>,<a href='http://www.facebook.com/thedailyshow'>The Daily Show on Facebook</a></p></div></div>

mlyonsd
06-29-2012, 08:02 AM
There are 6,600 licensed gun dealers within 100 miles of the Mexican border. Below is an excerpt from the Fortune investigation.

http://features.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2012/06/27/fast-and-furious-truth/

Phoenix-based ATF agents became so frustrated by prosecutors' intransigence that, in a highly unusual move, they began bringing big cases to the state attorney general's office instead. Terry Goddard, Arizona's Attorney General from 2003 to 2011, says of federal prosecutors, "They demanded that every i be dotted, every t be crossed, and after a while, it got to be nonsensical."
For prosecutors, straw-purchasing cases were hard to prove and unrewarding to prosecute, with minimal penalties attached. In December 2010, five U.S. Attorneys along the Southwest border, including Burke in Arizona, wrote to the U.S. Sentencing Commission, asking that penalties for straw purchasing be increased. The commission did increase the recommended jail time by a few months. But because the straw purchasers, by definition, have no criminal record and there is no firearms-trafficking statute that would allow prosecutors to charge them with conspiracy as a group, the penalties remain low.
Prosecutors repeatedly rebuffed Voth's requests. After examining one suspect's garbage, agents learned he was on food stamps yet had plunked down more than $300,000 for 476 firearms in six months. Voth asked if the ATF could arrest him for fraudulently accepting public assistance when he was spending such huge sums. Prosecutor Hurley said no. In another instance, a young jobless suspect paid more than $10,000 for a 50-caliber tripod-mounted sniper rifle. According to Voth, Hurley told the agents they lacked proof that he hadn't bought the gun for himself.
Voth grew deeply frustrated. In August 2010, after the ATF in Texas confiscated 80 guns—63 of them purchased in Arizona by the Fast and Furious suspects— Voth got an e-mail from a colleague there: "Are you all planning to stop some of these guys any time soon? That's a lot of guns…Are you just letting these guns walk?"
Voth responded with barely suppressed rage: "Have I offended you in some way? Because I am very offended by your e-mail. Define walk? Without Probable Cause and concurrence from the USAO [U.S. Attorney's Office] it is highway robbery if we take someone's property." He then recounted the situation with the unemployed suspect who had bought the sniper rifle. "We conducted a field interview and after calling the AUSA [assistant U.S. Attorney] he said we did not have sufficient PC [probable cause] to take the firearm so our suspect drove home with said firearm in his car…any ideas on how we could not let that firearm 'walk'"?

The irony (and hypocrisy) is that Grassley and Issa, two huge NRA gun advocates are critical of federal agents for letting guns "walk" when it is the policies (or lack thereof) that hamstring their efforts. Nice spin if you don't think anyone will actually bother to look into it further.I must be stupid because I'm not sure how this ties into Fast and Furious.

Radar Chief
06-29-2012, 08:03 AM
There are 6,600 licensed gun dealers within 100 miles of the Mexican border. Below is an excerpt from the Fortune investigation.

http://features.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2012/06/27/fast-and-furious-truth/

[I]Phoenix-based ATF agents became so frustrated by prosecutors' intransigence that, in a highly unusual move, they began bringing big cases to the state attorney general's office instead. Terry Goddard, Arizona's Attorney General from 2003 to 2011, says of federal prosecutors, "They demanded that every i be dotted, every t be crossed, and after a while, it got to be nonsensical."
For prosecutors, straw-purchasing cases were hard to prove and unrewarding to prosecute, with minimal penalties attached. In December 2010, five U.S. Attorneys along the Southwest border, including Burke in Arizona, wrote to the U.S. Sentencing Commission, asking that penalties for straw purchasing be increased. The commission did increase the recommended jail time by a few months. But because the straw purchasers, by definition, have no criminal record and there is no firearms-trafficking statute that would allow prosecutors to charge them with conspiracy as a group, the penalties remain low.

:hmmm: Interesting. So what your article is saying is that there are laws to prevent guns from walking across the border but no one was willing to prosecute. Rather ironically this article here claims there are no laws to prevent such a thing. I wonder who has it right? :hmmm:

GOP Votes for Contempt as "Fast and Furious" Blows Up in Its Face

—By Adam Weinstein (http://www.motherjones.com/authors/adam-weinstein)

Their job was hard, because there's no federal law against gun trafficking, there's no electronic database of gun purchases, and you can buy as many guns as you want in Arizona, and resell them to anyone, anytime—all thanks to the NRA and pro-gun lobbyists. "In Arizona," says Dave Voth, the ATF agent who ran the Phoenix operation, "someone buying three guns is like someone buying a sandwich."

Prosecutors repeatedly rebuffed Voth's requests. After examining one suspect's garbage, agents learned he was on food stamps yet had plunked down more than $300,000 for 476 firearms in six months. Voth asked if the ATF could arrest him for fraudulently accepting public assistance when he was spending such huge sums. Prosecutor Hurley said no. In another instance, a young jobless suspect paid more than $10,000 for a 50-caliber tripod-mounted sniper rifle. According to Voth, Hurley told the agents they lacked proof that he hadn't bought the gun for himself.

Holy shit that kid got ripped the **** off. :eek: He could’ve gone straight to Barrett and got the same thing for less than half that.

Ugly Duck
06-29-2012, 08:08 AM
"Preservation of the ability of the executive branch to function efficiently requires respecting the confidentiality of communication among a president, a vice president, the president's other senior advisers and others" - Dick Cheney

http://0.tqn.com/d/politicalhumor/1/7/m/j/2/cheney-blingee.gif

VAChief
06-29-2012, 08:40 AM
:hmmm: Interesting. So what your article is saying is that there are laws to prevent guns from walking across the border but no one was willing to prosecute. Rather ironically this article here claims there are no laws to prevent such a thing. I wonder who has it right? :hmmm:





Holy shit that kid got ripped the **** off. :eek: He could’ve gone straight to Barrett and got the same thing for less than half that.

No one at the state level was willing to prosecute because the laws in Arizona are so lax.

VAChief
06-29-2012, 08:45 AM
I must be stupid because I'm not sure how this ties into Fast and Furious.

I don't think you are stupid, but I am guessing you didn't bother to read the Fortune investigative piece.

VAChief
06-29-2012, 08:47 AM
:hmmm: Interesting. So what your article is saying is that there are laws to prevent guns from walking across the border but no one was willing to prosecute. Rather ironically this article here claims there are no laws to prevent such a thing. I wonder who has it right? :hmmm:





Holy shit that kid got ripped the **** off. :eek: He could’ve gone straight to Barrett and got the same thing for less than half that.

Yes, I am sure Grassley and Issa want stricter enforcement of gun laws...that is surely their intent. If you tried to implement the same kind of ID requirements for gun shows as say voting in this country, they both would be screaming about 2nd amendment rights being violated.

Chiefshrink
06-29-2012, 08:48 AM
Wrong. Completely, embarrassing wrong. LMAO

Bush's idiotic expedition ended in 2007, when they realized the cartel had found the RFID chips and were taking them out of the guns. Bush admin and Mexican gov't worked together.

Obama started up a new op, without Mexican cooperation, without any way to track these guns. They literally walked machine guns across an international border, gave them to criminals, tons of people got killed, and people act like nothing happened.

Bush sought to track criminals, Obama sought to arm them (obviously so they would use the guns in crimes)

Bush tried to catch criminals before they could commit more crimes, Obama armed them so they could commit more.

Same thing. :shake:

:thumb:

And for the whole purpose to continue to go after the 2nd Amendment by going after these American Gun dealers who supposedly sold these to the CARTEL:rolleyes:along the border specifically in Arizona.

Basically Holder setting up American Gun Dealers to look like the 'bad guys' to give the Fed the excuse to go after them thus continuing the assault on the 2nd Amendment

ChiTown
06-29-2012, 08:49 AM
JFC we armed criminal gangs in a neighboring country basically knowing they'd use them to murder their own fellow citizens, as well as knowing the possibility existed US citizens could be killed as well.

For something that stupid the entire paper trail should be made public and let the chips fall where they may.

This is just as big a deal as Iran/Contra and bigger than Plame or the US Attorney scandal. And if you were whining about the last two in this forum you sure as hell are hypocritical if you're not whining about this scandal.

:clap:

Bewbies
06-29-2012, 08:56 AM
"Preservation of the ability of the executive branch to function efficiently requires respecting the confidentiality of communication among a president, a vice president, the president's other senior advisers and others" - Dick Cheney

http://0.tqn.com/d/politicalhumor/1/7/m/j/2/cheney-blingee.gif

So did Holder lie under oath to Congress about Obama knowing, or did Obama use EP to cover this up?

Radar Chief
06-29-2012, 08:58 AM
Yes, I am sure Grassley and Issa want stricter enforcement of gun laws...that is surely their intent.

Good, glad we agree on that point then. :thumb:

If you tried to implement the same kind of ID requirements for gun shows as say voting in this country, they both would be screaming about 2nd amendment rights being violated.

You already have to show ID to purchase a gun to:
1. Prove who you are, and
2. Prove you are of age to buy.

mlyonsd
06-29-2012, 09:33 AM
I don't think you are stupid, but I am guessing you didn't bother to read the Fortune investigative piece.Well if that were true I'd think you'd like to get everything aired out into the public so we can all make up our own minds.

VAChief
06-29-2012, 10:01 AM
Well if that were true I'd think you'd like to get everything aired out into the public so we can all make up our own minds.

Based on the reams of paperwork already available that basically confirms this has been a cluster blank since 2005 that no one seems to dispute. Why should we waste more time on it?

The assumption that Executive Privilege means there is something related to the investigation is not new (just look at the previous two administrations). A somewhat similar use during the Pat Tillman hearings. Personally, I can suspect there is something there, but the privilege is there for use in sensitive situations that could compromise operations.

I don''t have the least problem with looking at this and rectifying the policies that went on. I have seen nothing to suggest (and Issa admitted as much recently himself) that anyone in the administration was directly involved.

I'm sick of this on both sides, the hyperbole and gnashing of teeth are all just smoke screens for those that keep them in their jobs. I would love to see some reasonable term limits (12 years House and Senate) so that maybe these ass wipes would actually start looking out for what was the right thing to do instead of posturing like fools (and that goes for both sides, if not equally, surely too much on both).

Ugly Duck
06-29-2012, 10:07 AM
So did Holder lie under oath to Congress about Obama knowing, or did Obama use EP to cover this up?

Did Holder & Obama buy stock in guns & then continue the Bush gunwalking program just to make money? Do they molest young interns in freaky 3-ways? They only way to get to the bottom of every speculation imaginable is to go full Whitewater. It'll take years of investigation & millions of dollars, but if Republis are allowed access to every email ever sent by anybody in the WH, they might be able to come up with a Monica or something. Heck, it worked against Clinton. Might as well try it against Obama.

vailpass
06-29-2012, 10:44 AM
Did Holder & Obama buy stock in guns & then continue the Bush gunwalking program just to make money? Do they molest young interns in freaky 3-ways? They only way to get to the bottom of every speculation imaginable is to go full Whitewater. It'll take years of investigation & millions of dollars, but if Republis are allowed access to every email ever sent by anybody in the WH, they might be able to come up with a Monica or something. Heck, it worked against Clinton. Might as well try it against Obama.

You are a loon.

Chiefspants
06-29-2012, 10:47 AM
This is pretty much becoming Iran-Contra, but Iran-Contra didn't arise in an election year.

If Obama's not careful this will prove to be his waterloo.

Bewbies
06-29-2012, 11:13 AM
Did Holder & Obama buy stock in guns & then continue the Bush gunwalking program just to make money? Do they molest young interns in freaky 3-ways? They only way to get to the bottom of every speculation imaginable is to go full Whitewater. It'll take years of investigation & millions of dollars, but if Republis are allowed access to every email ever sent by anybody in the WH, they might be able to come up with a Monica or something. Heck, it worked against Clinton. Might as well try it against Obama.

I don't know how you even feed yourself.

go bowe
06-29-2012, 11:43 AM
dick cheney thought that the assertion of executive privelege was appropriate if not necessary...

can he feed himself?

Bewbies
06-29-2012, 01:59 PM
dick cheney thought that the assertion of executive privelege was appropriate if not necessary...

can he feed himself?

Can you read?

vailpass
06-29-2012, 02:17 PM
Can you read?

Go easy. Bowe's one of the good guys. He's smart enough to see the real issues and has enough balls to call 'em without regard to whether it favors R or D.

Dylan
06-29-2012, 04:16 PM
Story moved to another thread.

The_Grand_Illusion
06-30-2012, 09:32 AM
Issa had a whistleblower turn over wiretaps that leads to more questions what is going on in the DOJ.

http://thehill.com/homenews/house/235715-issa-reveals-sealed-wiretaps-from-doj-mole


Issa reveals wiretap docs from DOJ mole
By Jordy Yager - 06/29/12 04:30 PM ET

Rep. Darrell Issa (R-Calif.) has revealed portions of sealed wiretap applications related to the botched gun-tracking operation “Fast and Furious.”

Issa entered the sensitive, and previously undisclosed, information into the Congressional Record on Thursday during the floor debate leading up to the passage of his resolution placing Attorney General Eric Holder in contempt of Congress.

The powerful Republican might be protected from what otherwise would be a criminal offense under Congress’s speech and debate clause because the remarks were written into the public record during chamber proceedings.

During his probe of Fast and Furious as chairman of the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee, Issa has focused on a series of six wiretap applications that federal officials implemented in an attempt to dismantle gun-trafficking rings in the Southwest.

The applications, which are under a federal court’s seal, were given to Issa by a mole with access to the documents. Issa has claimed they reveal that top-level Justice Department officials signed off on the documents and knew about the controversial “gun-walking” tactics used in Fast and Furious. Issa has called his source a “whistleblower” and refused to disclose his or her identity.

“The enclosed wiretap affidavit contains clear information that agents were willfully allowing known straw buyers to acquire firearms for drug cartels and failing to interdict them — in some cases even allowing them to walk to Mexico,” stated a letter Issa sent to his panel’s ranking member Elijah Cummings (D-Md.), which was put into the record on Thursday.

“In particular, the affidavit explicitly describes the most controversial tactic of all: abandoning surveillance of known straw purchasers, resulting in the failure to interdict firearms.”

Gun “walking” occurs when a federal official allows a gun to be transferred illegally into a suspected criminals’ possession and they make no attempt to retake possession of the firearm. The tactic is at the heart of why administration and congressional officials have criticized Fast and Furious so vehemently.

Issa argued the information in the wiretap applications raises questions about whether Holder told Congress the truth. Holder has previously testified that he has reviewed the documents and concluded that nothing in them suggested senior DOJ officials should have known about the controversial tactics being employed by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF), which ran the operation.

“The detailed information about the operational tactics contained in the applications raises new questions about statements of senior Justice Department officials, including the Attorney General himself,” said Issa in his May letter to Cummings.

“The affidavit reveals that the Justice Department has been misrepresenting important facts to Congress and withholding critical details about Fast and Furious from the Committee for months on end.”

Issa has been investigating Fast and Furious for 16 months, with specific emphasis on the role the DOJ played in approving the flawed operation. President Obama and Holder have repeatedly said they didn’t know about the “gun walking” tactics until after an ATF agent made news of them public.

In testimony before the House Rules Committee this week, Issa told lawmakers that he had no evidence that Holder was responsible for Fast and Furious. But on Thursday, the California Republican successfully passed civil and criminal resolutions placing Holder in contempt for not responding to a congressional subpoena for documents.

Issa has demanded the DOJ to turn over internal communications over a 10-month period that detailed how the department realized that the ATF had let guns “walk” after stating in a letter to Congress that it made every attempt to stop them.

According to one of the wiretap applications, which included lengthy transcriptions of conversations between alleged straw buyers for Mexican drug cartels, a suspect told an associate over the phone: “Can you hold them [firearms] for me there for a little while there?”

The associate responded, “Well it's that I do not want to have them at home, dude, because there is a lot of … uh, it's too much heat at my house.”

The news about Issa's entry into the Congressional Record was first reported by Roll Call.

go bowe
06-30-2012, 11:11 AM
Go easy. Bowe's one of the good guys. He's smart enough to see the real issues and has enough balls to call 'em without regard to whether it favors R or D.

one of the good guys?

i must be failing in my attempts to be an asshole...

i'll try harder...


and no, boobies, i can't read...

could you draw me a picture?

patteeu
06-30-2012, 11:48 AM
one of the good guys?

i must be failing in my attempts to be an asshole...

i'll try harder...


and no, boobies, i can't read...

could you draw me a picture?

Here, maybe this will help.

Hey 99%ers! Listen up. I hear that go bo attended an Ivy League college. Did you know that only 0.4% of college students attend Ivy League colleges? Well, it's true. That makes go bo one of the 0.4%! Get him!!!

Chiefshrink
06-30-2012, 12:05 PM
dick cheney thought that the assertion of executive privelege was appropriate if not necessary...

can he feed himself?

Uhhhhhh the reason why all this is being pursued even more diligently is because Holder contradicted himself (a la 'purjured' himself essentially) making it look like he and now the "usurper in chief' are hiding something since EP is being used. Again, EP is fine if there is no criminal wrongdoing BUT not okay if perjury and the appearance of criminal wrongdoing exist now that EP has been implemented. What is being hid. Issa tried to play ball and would not hold the black Howard Sprague in contempt IF he would just turn over the docs:shrug:

Issa was smart to go slow on this allowing this to build up for the last 1 1/2 yrs and have this peak during this election year because he 'knows' he truly has a big fish on his line:thumb:

Chiefshrink
06-30-2012, 12:07 PM
Here, maybe this will help.

Hey 99%ers! Listen up. I hear that go bo attended an Ivy League college. Did you know that only 0.4% of college students attend Ivy League colleges? Well, it's true. That makes go bo one of the 0.4%! Get him!!!

Ivy league???

Only Ivy I have witnessed from 'go blow' is Poison Ivy !!:p

Dylan
06-30-2012, 02:38 PM
New York Daily News / June 29, 2012 (grainy photos)

Mexican beheadings: Gulf drug cartel members decapitate rival Zetas during HORRIFIC 3 minute video

"You find yourselves here because you came to f--- us," the video’s unidentified narrator says when the Zeta members finish speaking. “Pay attention, men.”

New, horrific footage shows members of a Mexican drug cartel beheading hostages from a rival gang, marking the latest act of violence in the growing war over drug-smuggling territories in Mexico.

The 3-minute clip, which was posted on Mundonarco.com Wednesday, shows five shirtless members of the Zetas cartel, marked by black Zs on their chests, kneeling in front of four masked members of the Gulf cartel.

The masked men hold machetes as each Zeta member gives his name.

Each hostage says he was sent by “Z-40,” referring to the Zeta cartel’s second-in-command, Miguel Angel Treviño Morales, who is known as “40.”

“40” and his two brothers are wanted in Texas for allegedly laundering millions of dollars in drug money through a horse racing company, the Houston Chronicle.

The U.S. has offered a $5 million reward for any information leading to Morales’s capture.

"You find yourselves here because you came to f--- us," the video’s unidentified narrator says when the Zeta members finish speaking. “Pay attention, men.”

Three members of the Gulf cartel then begin to slowly hack off the heads of the Zetas with their machetes.

“This is how all your filthy people are going to end," the narrator says as the prisoners plead for their lives.

The video ends a minute later when the masked men hold up three of the severed heads. The two other Zeta hostages are not shown.

“Very good, very good,”the narrator adds.


Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/mexican-beheadings-gulf-drug-cartel-members-decapitate-rival-zetas-horrific-3-minute-video-article-1.1104802#ixzz1zJKm4Mft


Love the comments:

couldn't they just use Holder's and Obama's supplied guns?

It's nice that Obama is bringing them into our neighborhood.

Let them kill each other off..

When will this MADNESS stop ?

Next Tuesday at 6.

LMAO





Fed say Mexico’s Zetas cartel hid millions in U.S. horses

The federal government charges that 14 defendants including Miguel Angel Trevino Morales, a leader of the notorious Zetas cartel in Mexico, and his brother were part of a scheme to launder millions of dollars by buying, training, breeding and racing American quarter horses in the United States. Read the indictment at the bottom of t his blog.
[/B]

http://blog.chron.com/narcoconfidential/2012/06/fed-say-mexicos-zetas-cartel-hid-millions-in-u-s-horse-raising/

HonestChieffan
06-30-2012, 07:31 PM
The truth will bury Obama



(Roll Call) — In the midst of a fiery floor debate over contempt proceedings for Attorney General Eric Holder, House Oversight and Government Reform Chairman Darrell Issa (R-Calif.) quietly dropped a bombshell letter into the Congressional Record.

The May 24 letter to Rep. Elijah Cummings (D-Md.), ranking member on the panel, quotes from and describes in detail a secret wiretap application that has become a point of debate in the GOP’s “Fast and Furious” gun-walking probe.

The wiretap applications are under court seal, and releasing such information to the public would ordinarily be illegal. But Issa appears to be protected by the Speech or Debate Clause in the Constitution, which offers immunity for Congressional speech, especially on a chamber’s floor.

According to the letter, the wiretap applications contained a startling amount of detail about the operation, which would have tipped off anyone who read them closely about what tactics were being used.

Holder and Cummings have both maintained that the wiretap applications did not contain such details and that the applications were reviewed narrowly for probable cause, not for whether any investigatory tactics contained followed Justice Department policy. . . .

In Fast and Furious, agents for the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives allowed assault guns bought by “straw purchasers” to “walk,” which meant ending surveillance on weapons suspected to be en route to Mexican drug cartels.

The tactic, which was intended to allow agents to track criminal networks by finding the guns at crime scenes, was condemned after two guns that were part of the operation were found at U.S. Border Patrol agent Brian Terry’s murder scene.

Keep reading. . .http://www.rollcall.com/news/darrell_issa_puts_details_of_secret_wiretap_applications_in_congressional-215828-1.html

RedNeckRaider
07-01-2012, 07:38 AM
Settle down everyone! I just watched the tail end of an interview on State of the Union. There was a staff member (I did not catch his name) explain that this whole thing was started under Bush. He went on to say this Holder fella didn't even know about it. When he found out about it, he put a stop to it. He told us this was going on in another region without any knowledge of Holder. I think everyone should give the poor guy an apology, starting with the president. Why if he would have stayed out of it everyone would have been able to read this information~

go bowe
07-01-2012, 10:56 AM
Here, maybe this will help.

Hey 99%ers! Listen up. I hear that go bo attended an Ivy League college. Did you know that only 0.4% of college students attend Ivy League colleges? Well, it's true. That makes go bo one of the 0.4%! Get him!!!

oh shit, now everybody will know about that...

it was an accident, i didn't really mean to go there...

honest, it was an accident... :( :( :(

don't let the townsfolk burn me at the stake...

please, i hate fire (when i'm the one being cooked)...

Iz Zat Chew
07-01-2012, 10:38 PM
Here is a comparison between the Bush event and the Obama event:

cosmo20002
07-01-2012, 11:53 PM
Here is a comparison between the Bush event and the Obama event:

Made it to #2 before seeing that this wasn't even intended to be factual in the slightest way.

Dylan
07-02-2012, 12:12 AM
Excerpts: Democrats blame Bush for Fast and Furious - WRONG!

Scandal: The president's spokesman confuses a "controlled delivery" operation known as Wide Receiver with the quite different Fast and Furious and couldn't even remember the name of the Border Patrol agent killed by it.

When a Border Patrol agent is murdered in the service of his country as a result of a program run by his own government, one would think the White House press secretary would know his name. Jay Carney, his name was Brian Terry.

During a contentious press conference where even the White House press corps seemed to have had enough with the administration's tap dancing about an operation that began on its watch and got two federal agents killed, ABC's Jake Tapper had to feed a stumbling Carney the name of the Border Patrol agent killed by it.

To refresh Mr. Carney's memory, and perhaps that of the president, who never called the family, Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry was killed in December 2010 at the hands of an illegal immigrant working for the Sinaloa Cartel just 10 miles from the Mexico border near Nogales, Ariz. Two AK-47 assault rifles found at the site of the Terry shooting were traced back to a straw buyer allowed to smuggle guns into Mexico with the blessing of the ATF and Eric Holder's Department of Justice.

In addition to Agent Terry, Immigration Customs Enforcement Agent Jaime Zapata was also killed in a separate incident by a weapon allowed to "walk" into Mexico from the U.S. as part of the administration's third-rate alleged attempt to track and catch gun traffickers. Let us not forget the hundreds of Mexican nationals who have been killed by Fast and Furious weapons.

Like the administration he serves, Carney was perhaps too focused on the party line that gun-walking into Mexico was something begun under President George W. Bush and Fast and Furious was merely an extension of this policy.

Dubbed "Operation Wide Receiver," the Bush-era operation was run out of Tucson between 2006 and 2007, ending before Bush left office and before Fast and Furious began under Obama in 2009. The differences between it and Fast and Furious are vast, starting with the fact that Wide Receiver produced no dead bodies.

Operation Wide Receiver used the common law enforcement tactic of "controlled delivery" in which the illegal sales of weapons were allowed to take place, the movements of the weapons were closely monitored and the end purchasers were then apprehended. It involved gun-tracing, not gun-walking.

Under the "controlled delivery" of Wide Receiver, agents didn't just write down the serial numbers and let the guns disappear as in Fast and Furious. They closely and physically followed the guns from American dealers to straw purchasers to Mexican buyers.

Most importantly, Wide Receiver was run in close cooperation with Mexican authorities, who were kept in the dark on Fast and Furious.

http://news.investors.com/article/615871/201206221823/fast-and-furious-different-than-wide-receiver.htm?p=full

Iz Zat Chew
07-02-2012, 04:47 AM
Made it to #2 before seeing that this wasn't even intended to be factual in the slightest way.
Non-factual? Do you have data to refute it? Or is it just what you see and hear?

As always, you have nothing.

Radar Chief
07-02-2012, 07:16 AM
oh shit, now everybody will know about that...

it was an accident, i didn't really mean to go there...

honest, it was an accident... :( :( :(

don't let the townsfolk burn me at the stake...

please, i hate fire (when i'm the one being cooked)...

Did someone say steak? :drool: