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petegz28
08-15-2012, 05:44 PM
On 810 not long ago he was talking about the chemistry on this team and how he hasn't seen it this way really since he has been calling the games but to the juice...

Said the big reason for the chemistry is there is not a bunch of nit-picking, micro-managing and "useless yelling". Said Cassel doesn't have to worry anymore about being chewed out after changing the play and completing a downfield pass when the play called did not call for such. Went on to say that accountability is being maintained and used the Monday walk-through as an example. Just said there isn't a bunch ot nit-picking and yelling. Romeo let's the coaches coach, etc.

He then elabortated more about how Daboll doesn't give a shit if Cassel changes a play at the line if he thinks the play called won't succeed against the defensive alignment.

I took that as a clear shot at Haley and in retrospect it certainly seems to fit what we saw out of him for 3 years.

Count Alex's Losses
08-15-2012, 05:45 PM
Yes, the Chiefs are taking all kinds of underhanded shots at Haley and Bowe these days.

Especially Haley.

Any failure in the past three years? His fault.

Now that he's gone, everything will be awesome. He was evil and the fruits of the devil.

Dude sucked but to blame him for everything makes me sick.

Dave Lane
08-15-2012, 05:46 PM
Yes, the Chiefs are taking all kinds of underhanded shots at Haley and Bowe these days.

Especially Haley.

Any failure in the past three years? His fault.

Now that he's gone, everything will be awesome. He was the evil and the fruits of the devil.

No shit. Total scapegoat for everything.

petegz28
08-15-2012, 05:49 PM
Yes, the Chiefs are taking all kinds of underhanded shots at Haley and Bowe these days.

Especially Haley.

Any failure in the past three years? His fault.

Now that he's gone, everything will be awesome. He was evil and the fruits of the devil.

Dude sucked but to blame him for everything makes me sick.

dude, I was watching some of the game film from some games over the last two years and I clearly just don't think Cassel is that dumb. I mean there were plays where the defense was just stacking the line yet there went the hand off up the middle.

And I don't know which specific play he was referring too but he said Cassel no longer has to worry about being chewed out in his helmet after completing a 20 yard pass dowfield because the play called from the sidelines did not call for that route.

I won't blame Haley for ALL of the fail during his time here. But it is a great point about the yelling and nit-picking. When coaches do that all the fucking time players tend to start tuning him out.

petegz28
08-15-2012, 05:51 PM
And just to add my .02, Haley did not reserve his yelling to just the players. He cussed out coaches as well. Perhaps the temper tantrums and profanity laced, in-game lectures would have gone over better AFTER Haley had proven himself as a successful head coach.

Otherwise I think it just comes off as a problem of "little man syndrome".

threebag02
08-15-2012, 05:53 PM
So if the play call is a deep pass to stretch the field Matty doesn't have to worry about changing it to a sideways pass play. He's all good.

Rock on Matty...








...WORTHLESS COCKSUCKER.

Count Alex's Losses
08-15-2012, 05:53 PM
dude, I was watching some of the game film from some games over the last two years and I clearly just don't think Cassel is that dumb. I mean there were plays where the defense was just stacking the line yet there went the hand off up the middle.


I don't think Cassel is dumb, either.

He just sucks at football. Inaccurate, mediocre arm, doesn't read defenses particularly well.

Smart guy. Shit QB.

There's also an entire sequence from the Seattle game that clearly shows Cassel had the ability to change plays, because the guy checked into a running play at the goal line in that game, or changed the direction of it or something. It was on HBO.

Detoxing
08-15-2012, 05:53 PM
When a new coach comes in, the old one is always the scapegoat.

Same shit, different day.

petegz28
08-15-2012, 05:54 PM
So if the play call is a deep pass to stretch the field Matty doesn't have to worry about changing it to a sideways pass play. He's all good.

In fairness, Hothus also went on to say that Trent Green was also not afforded the luxury of checking out of plays. Said some coaches are just like that, they call the play and that's what you will run regardless.

Count Alex's Losses
08-15-2012, 05:54 PM
And just to add my .02, Haley did not reserve his yelling to just the players. He cussed out coaches as well. Perhaps the temper tantrums and profanity laced, in-game lectures would have gone over better AFTER Haley had proven himself as a successful head coach.

Otherwise I think it just comes off as a problem of "little man syndrome".

Bill Parcells did the same fucking thing.

petegz28
08-15-2012, 05:55 PM
I don't think Cassel is dumb, either.

He just sucks at football. Inaccurate, mediocre arm, doesn't read defenses particularly well.

Smart guy. Shit QB.

There's also an entire sequence from the Seattle game that clearly shows Cassel had the ability to change plays, because the guy checked into a running play at the goal line in that game, or changed the direction of it or something. It was on HBO.

That was Weis, not Haley. We have been over this several times.

petegz28
08-15-2012, 05:55 PM
Bill Parcells did the same ****ing thing.

Bill Parcells also won a SB and went to another. Are you equating Haley to Parcells?

petegz28
08-15-2012, 06:01 PM
When a new coach comes in, the old one is always the scapegoat.

Same shit, different day.

Possibly but seriously when you hear "nit-picking, micro-managing and useless yelling" does that not get fit Haley like white on rice on a paper plate in a snow storm?

mcaj22
08-15-2012, 06:01 PM
pretty sure Big Ben was changing plays at the line and making reads in the Steelers first preseason game. So unless Haley is bipolar and completely different as a OC than he is a HC....

BossChief
08-15-2012, 06:02 PM
Yes, the Chiefs are taking all kinds of underhanded shots at Haley and Bowe these days.

Especially Haley.

Any failure in the past three years? His fault.

Now that he's gone, everything will be awesome. He was evil and the fruits of the devil.

Dude sucked but to blame him for everything makes me sick.

I hate to say it because I was a big Haley supporter, but it's possible his attitude was counterproductive across the board.

It was clear to see that the team responded the moment he was fired...and in a positive way. That turnaround has seemingly continued into this year.

bevischief
08-15-2012, 06:04 PM
We will see what happens in Pittsburgh...

mr. tegu
08-15-2012, 06:04 PM
Cassel does not read defenses well during the play. Given that fact it would be reasonable to let him adjust before the play to put himself in a better pre snap position to succeed. However, there were two problems with that last season: one he wasn't allowed to alter the play, and secondly even if he was the play was never in on time to even consider doing that.

Count Alex's Losses
08-15-2012, 06:05 PM
It's all bullshit because Brian Daboll used to scream bloody murder at Colt McCoy.

petegz28
08-15-2012, 06:05 PM
pretty sure Big Ben was changing plays at the line and making reads in the Steelers first preseason game. So unless Haley is bipolar and completely different as a OC than he is a HC....

Tomlinson would be the one telling Haley to fuck off if he even tried something like that. Pure and simple, Haley did not like Cassel. He did not trust Cassel. He did not want Cassel. Him and his Daddy would talk about how bad Cassel is at family dinner.

Flachief58
08-15-2012, 06:05 PM
I hate to say it because I was a big Haley supporter, but it's possible his attitude was counterproductive across the board.

It was clear to see that the team responded the moment he was fired...and in a positive way. That turnaround has seemingly continued into this year.

:clap:

BossChief
08-15-2012, 06:05 PM
Bill Parcells also won a SB and went to another. Are you equating Haley to Parcells?

When you get a chance, watch the Bill Parcells episode of sound effects.

You will swear it's Todd Haley with grey hair.

petegz28
08-15-2012, 06:05 PM
Cassel does not read defenses well during the play. Given that fact it would be reasonable to let him adjust before the play to put himself in a better pre snap position to succeed. However, there were two problems with that last season: one he wasn't allowed to alter the play, and secondly even if he was the play was never in on time to even consider doing that.

That wouldn't have anything to do with the trio (Haley\Nuir\Zorn) calling in the plays, would it?

Count Alex's Losses
08-15-2012, 06:06 PM
Bill Parcells also won a SB and went to another. Are you equating Haley to Parcells?

Parcells is the reason Haley was a HC.

Pioli picked Haley.

They don't get a free pass on blaming him, because they created him.

petegz28
08-15-2012, 06:06 PM
When you get a chance, watch the Bill Parcells episode of sound effects.

You will swear it's Todd Haley with grey hair.

Look, I am not saying Parcells didn't yell and cuss. Difference was he could do it and hold the respect of the team. Haley couldn't. There is probably a reason for that.

petegz28
08-15-2012, 06:07 PM
Parcells is the reason Haley was a HC.

Pioli picked Haley.

They don't get a free pass on blaming him, because they created him.

Haley isn't a HC, in case you missed it. And I don't give Pioli a pass on Haley. I supported Haley at first like many did.

stonedstooge
08-15-2012, 06:07 PM
Yes, the Chiefs are taking all kinds of underhanded shots at Haley and Bowe these days.

Especially Haley.

Any failure in the past three years? His fault.

Now that he's gone, everything will be awesome. He was evil and the fruits of the devil.

Dude sucked but to blame him for everything makes me sick.

That's the east coast method of management

Count Alex's Losses
08-15-2012, 06:07 PM
That was Weis, not Haley. We have been over this several times.

No, it was not Weis.

It was Cassel at the line of fucking scrimmage changing things. And then Haley praising him for it, literally saying "he's becoming a quarterback."

Count Alex's Losses
08-15-2012, 06:08 PM
I supported Haley at first like many did.

So did Scott Pioli.

petegz28
08-15-2012, 06:10 PM
No, it was not Weis.

It was Cassel at the line of ****ing scrimmage changing things. And then Haley praising him for it, literally saying "he's becoming a quarterback."

Weis was the OC. Meaning Weis gave Cassel the clearence to change the calls. WTF was Haley going to say publicly after his QB put on a great performance?

pr_capone
08-15-2012, 06:10 PM
Yes, the Chiefs are taking all kinds of underhanded shots at Haley and Bowe these days.

Especially Haley.

Any failure in the past three years? His fault.

Now that he's gone, everything will be awesome. He was evil and the fruits of the devil.

Dude sucked but to blame him for everything makes me sick.

Damn... Cabin Boy reference.

BossChief
08-15-2012, 06:11 PM
Look, I am not saying Parcells didn't yell and cuss. Difference was he could do it and hold the respect of the team. Haley couldn't. There is probably a reason for that.

Haley and Parcells command the respect of the team through fear.

Don't try and tell me Haley wouldn't have won two straight division titles if it weren't for the three ACL tears.

He would have.

Who knows, maybe it's a blessing in disguise that they got hurt and he was fired.

Time will tell.

RunKC
08-15-2012, 06:11 PM
Todd Haley being a prick to the coaches? No way.

http://cdn.ksk.uproxx.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/haleyfyou.gif

petegz28
08-15-2012, 06:11 PM
It's all bullshit because Brian Daboll used to scream bloody murder at Colt McCoy.

Well he isn't yelling at Cassel. Why? Who knows? Maybe he realized that wasn't the most effective way to get production out of a QB and an offense?

don't you find it odd that Haley's most calm season here was the one where Weis was forced on him?

petegz28
08-15-2012, 06:12 PM
Haley and Parcells command the respect of the team through fear.

Don't try and tell me Haley wouldn't have won two straight division titles if it weren't for the three ACL tears.

He would have.

Who knows, maybe it's a blessing in disguise that they got hurt and he was fired.

Time will tell.

Riddle me this, did Parcells ever draw a penalty because he couldn't control his temper?

DaFace
08-15-2012, 06:12 PM
I have no doubt that RAC is more calm than Haley and that that makes the team seem more cordial and organized. The question is whether that style translates into in-field performance or not. Some guys just need someone to kick them in the ass to get motivated.

Count Alex's Losses
08-15-2012, 06:13 PM
Well he isn't yelling at Cassel. Why? Who knows?

It's preseason. LMAO

BossChief
08-15-2012, 06:14 PM
So did Scott Pioli.

Shit, Scott waited till after the superbowl to hire a hc because he only wanted Haley.

petegz28
08-15-2012, 06:15 PM
I have no doubt that RAC is more calm than Haley and that that makes the team seem more cordial and organized. The question is whether that style translates into in-field performance or not. Some guys just need someone to kick them in the ass to get motivated.

Agreed. And I agree there is a time to yell. Just not all the time, every play and every player and every coach or every time something goes wrong.

I often model Marty in that situation when talking about the right way to yell. You think he didn't yell? You think he never grabbed a player by the facemask? But he didn't do it every single time something didn't go right.

chiefzilla1501
08-15-2012, 06:15 PM
I have no doubt that RAC is more calm than Haley and that that makes the team seem more cordial and organized. The question is whether that style translates into in-field performance or not. Some guys just need someone to kick them in the ass to get motivated.

I've said this before. I just hope RAC isn't our version of Norv Turner.

Player's coaches always do great for the first few years. But if they're too soft, there comes a point when the honeymoon ends and the players realize they can get away with anything. If Romeo doesn't tear into his players who show up late, who don't work hard enough in practice, etc.... players start to get soft.

I hope something has changed. Because that was his reputation in Cleveland -- a real nice guy that players loved, but so nice that his players softened up over time.

Count Alex's Losses
08-15-2012, 06:16 PM
Shit, Scott waited till after the superbowl to hire a hc because he only wanted Haley.

Pioli doesn't get nearly enough blame for hiring a shit HC.

And I firmly believe Romeo was hired for one reason only: he's gonna do whatever Pioli wants.

Haley had a little power and things didn't go well. So now Pioli has all the power.

petegz28
08-15-2012, 06:17 PM
I've said this before. I just hope RAC isn't our version of Norv Turner.

Player's coaches always do great for the first few years. But if they're too soft, there comes a point when the honeymoon ends and the players realize they can get away with anything. If Romeo doesn't tear into his players who show up late, who don't work hard enough in practice, etc.... players start to get soft.

I hope something has changed. Because that was his reputation in Cleveland -- a real nice guy that players loved, but so nice that his players softened up over time.

Holthus talked about this and used the Monday walk-through as an example of Romeo calling for accountability. Said the walk-thorugh was shabby so Romeo would not let them go until they got shit right. and Id on't think Romeo will have a problem of laying into a player when it needs to be done. After all he is a defensive coach and that sort of comes with the territory.

petegz28
08-15-2012, 06:19 PM
Pioli doesn't get nearly enough blame for hiring a shit HC.

And I firmly believe Romeo was hired for one reason only: he's gonna do whatever Pioli wants.

Haley had a little power and things didn't go well. So now Pioli has all the power.

That may be true. All I know is RAC is off to a good start for as far as he can be judged. We put together the best pre-season game we have since 2003 at least. The team didn't look soft, didn't look confused and didn't look scared as they often did under our last 2 HC's.

mr. tegu
08-15-2012, 06:24 PM
hope something has changed. Because that was his reputation in Cleveland -- a real nice guy that players loved, but so nice that his players softened up over time.

One would think that he learned his lesson from his experiences in Cleveland and that being tough and yelling is appropriate and necessary at times.

petegz28
08-15-2012, 06:25 PM
I've said this before. I just hope RAC isn't our version of Norv Turner.

Player's coaches always do great for the first few years. But if they're too soft, there comes a point when the honeymoon ends and the players realize they can get away with anything. If Romeo doesn't tear into his players who show up late, who don't work hard enough in practice, etc.... players start to get soft.

I hope something has changed. Because that was his reputation in Cleveland -- a real nice guy that players loved, but so nice that his players softened up over time.

Crennel also had shit for talent in Cleveland and oh, BTW, he was the last coach to take them to the playoffs. BB sucked in Cleveland too and for pretty much the same reason.

chiefzilla1501
08-15-2012, 06:26 PM
One would think that he learned his lesson from his experiences in Cleveland and that being tough and yelling is appropriate and necessary at times.

I hope so. I'm not saying he hasn't learned or that things won't be different. But it's important to note that his reputation in his long career is that he's a player's coach.

Brock
08-15-2012, 06:27 PM
Pro players who need a bunch of yelling to get them to do their job should just be gotten rid of anyway. Veteran players are supposed to handle that.

chiefzilla1501
08-15-2012, 06:28 PM
Holthus talked about this and used the Monday walk-through as an example of Romeo calling for accountability. Said the walk-thorugh was shabby so Romeo would not let them go until they got shit right. and Id on't think Romeo will have a problem of laying into a player when it needs to be done. After all he is a defensive coach and that sort of comes with the territory.

That wasn't his reputation as a defensive coach. He is an unbelievable technical coach, unbelievable defensive strategist, and terrific dealing with players. But so is Norv Turner on the offensive side of the ball. His reputation in the past is that he is a player's coach that players love. When he was in Cleveland, players walked all over him after some time.

It's not like there isn't a long history to base this off of. Maybe he's learned from Cleveland and I hope he has. But right now, you can't pretend that his track record doesn't exist or make excuses for why it happened the first time around.

Mr. Laz
08-15-2012, 06:29 PM
When a new coach comes in, the old one is always the scapegoat.

Same shit, different day.
truth

except for that fact that some of us were saying it about Haley BEFORE he left.

saphojunkie
08-15-2012, 06:38 PM
That wasn't his reputation as a defensive coach. He is an unbelievable technical coach, unbelievable defensive strategist, and terrific dealing with players. But so is Norv Turner on the offensive side of the ball. His reputation in the past is that he is a player's coach that players love. When he was in Cleveland, players walked all over him after some time.

It's not like there isn't a long history to base this off of. Maybe he's learned from Cleveland and I hope he has. But right now, you can't pretend that his track record doesn't exist or make excuses for why it happened the first time around.

You are also using Cleveland as his only track record. Who is to say that Romeo didn't have the support of the front office? Who is to say that Romeo hasn't learned from that experience?

I don't understand people who look at a handful of years - his first head coaching experience - and say that will categorically define him as a coach going forward.

Once again...

Belichick.
Shottenheimer.

Sucked in Cleveland.

Count Alex's Losses
08-15-2012, 06:39 PM
You are also using Cleveland as his only track record. Who is to say that Romeo didn't have the support of the front office? Who is to say that Romeo hasn't learned from that experience?

I don't understand people who look at a handful of years - his first head coaching experience - and say that will categorically define him as a coach going forward.

Once again...

Belichick.
Shottenheimer.

Sucked in Cleveland.

Schottenheimer did not suck in Cleveland.

He went to two friggin' AFC Championship games fer crissakes.

You fucking homers don't want to judge Romeo based on Cleveland, but you're more than willing to call Haley THE WORST HEAD COACH EVER based on his 3 years in KC.

Double fucking standard.

Romeo is shit until he proves otherwise.

mr. tegu
08-15-2012, 06:40 PM
I hope so. I'm not saying he hasn't learned or that things won't be different. But it's important to note that his reputation in his long career is that he's a player's coach.

I got you. Hopefully he has realized as a coordinator he can be a players coach. But as a HC his style was too permissive.

patteeu
08-15-2012, 06:54 PM
In fairness, Hothus also went on to say that Trent Green was also not afforded the luxury of checking out of plays. Said some coaches are just like that, they call the play and that's what you will run regardless.

And in fairness to both DV and Haley, those called plays are designed to have multiple permutations depending on the defense they encounter. The key to a system like that is for everyone to read the same thing and execute the right permutation.

That said, without any real games played so far, all of the players and coaches seem to have more of a spring in their step (or at least sound like they do when they're interviewed) this preseason.

chiefzilla1501
08-15-2012, 07:01 PM
dude, I was watching some of the game film from some games over the last two years and I clearly just don't think Cassel is that dumb. I mean there were plays where the defense was just stacking the line yet there went the hand off up the middle.

And I don't know which specific play he was referring too but he said Cassel no longer has to worry about being chewed out in his helmet after completing a 20 yard pass dowfield because the play called from the sidelines did not call for that route.

I won't blame Haley for ALL of the fail during his time here. But it is a great point about the yelling and nit-picking. When coaches do that all the ****ing time players tend to start tuning him out.

You don't think Cassel is that dumb? Then why is there talk that he was using Patriots terminology several years into his Chiefs' career?

There are lots of coaches who have pre-determined plays. In fact, a good chunk of them. And frankly, the reason why we ran the ball against a stacked defensive line is because... well... Cassel couldn't throw the ball well against a stacked line either.

Maybe the coaching limited him. But let's not try to pretend that a lot of his problems are because he just wasn't very good.

mr. tegu
08-15-2012, 07:13 PM
There are lots of coaches who have pre-determined plays. In fact, a good chunk of them. And frankly, the reason why we ran the ball against a stacked defensive line is because... well... Cassel couldn't throw the ball well against a stacked line either.

Maybe the coaching limited him. But let's not try to pretend that a lot of his problems are because he just wasn't very good.

An audible to a pass play from a run play with a stacked d-line is different and has different defensive reactions than a called pass play against a stacked d-line

All that being said, wouldn't a better option and lesser of two evils be to allow Cassel to change the play pre snap to a pass to at least have a CHANCE at a successful play instead of just running Battle/Jones into the teeth of the defense? I think so at least.

chiefzilla1501
08-15-2012, 07:22 PM
An audible to a pass play from a run play with a stacked d-line is different and has different defensive reactions than a called pass play against a stacked d-line

All that being said, wouldn't a better option and lesser of two evils be to allow Cassel to change the play pre snap to a pass to at least have a CHANCE at a successful play instead of just running Battle/Jones into the teeth of the defense? I think so at least.

It depends on your strategy. The strategy worked fine in 2010, even though many claim that Weis was calling plays. The Chiefs ran the ball even when the defense was expecting it. The Chiefs' strategy was to set up makable 3rd and shorts. So while people on this board would call a 2-yard gain a failure, if it helps set up a 3rd and 4, it's not a terrible play.

It's not like we're talking about an isolated play here where the defense was stacking the box either. The defense stacked the box on every play. Against good defenses, even with a stacked box, Cassel couldn't find open receivers.

The problem is that the Chiefs more often than not took the ball out of Cassel's hands because when they let him drive the offense, we looked like shit. If they then built a strategy that minimized Cassel's contribution to the offense, there's good reason for it.

Count Alex's Losses
08-15-2012, 07:26 PM
The problem is that the Chiefs more often than not took the ball out of Cassel's hands because when they let him drive the offense, we looked like shit. If they then built a strategy that minimized Cassel's contribution to the offense, there's good reason for it.

You can feel the fail coming this year just reading this post.

My gut simultaneously churns while my heart glows red hot hatred.

O.city
08-15-2012, 07:27 PM
Schottenheimer did not suck in Cleveland.

He went to two friggin' AFC Championship games fer crissakes.

You ****ing homers don't want to judge Romeo based on Cleveland, but you're more than willing to call Haley THE WORST HEAD COACH EVER based on his 3 years in KC.

Double ****ing standard.

Romeo is shit until he proves otherwise.

At this point in time, Romeo and Haley are basically equal. Both had a good season as a head coach, and a couple shitty ones.


I don't think either had the potential and talent that we have on this squad, but that's not whats in question.


I was impressed and glad to see the way the Chiefs performed, from a preparation and execution stand point, but it was just a PS game, so I'm not yet exonerating Romeo.


I think Haley was in over his head and tried to micromanage things, not delegating. He was probably micromanaged from the GM as well. In the end, it did in fact have to end.

chiefzilla1501
08-15-2012, 07:28 PM
You can feel the fail coming this year just reading this post.

My gut simultaneously churns while my heart glows red hot hatred.

I disagree.

It's even worse.

I think this team is too talented. We're going to win games with our running game and stellar defense, Cassel is going to put on his typical "play not to lose" mentality, and people are going to suck him off for it. But never will the question be asked if an average QB could have done the same exact thing. It's exactly this mentality that disillusioned the Jets into thinking Mark Sanchez looks like a decent player.

O.city
08-15-2012, 07:29 PM
You can feel the fail coming this year just reading this post.

My gut simultaneously churns while my heart glows red hot hatred.

If he is to drive the offense this year and fails, hopefully we move on. If he is successful, we are successful.

Count Alex's Losses
08-15-2012, 07:30 PM
I disagree.

It's even worse.

I think this team is too talented. We're going to win games with our running game and stellar defense, Cassel is going to put on his typical "play not to lose" mentality, and people are going to suck him off for it. But never will the question be asked if an average QB could have done the same exact thing. It's exactly this mentality that disillusioned the Jets into thinking Mark Sanchez looks like a decent player.

I think we'll find out, more than ever, that this strategy won't drive us to a playoff appearance in the modern NFL against a difficult schedule.

We will TRY to hide Cassel.

He CAN'T against this schedule.

He either turns into a real QB or we miss the playoffs again. Simple as that.

Reerun_KC
08-15-2012, 07:32 PM
If holtus wasn't an aids puss, he would of called him out during his tenure here. So easy when he is gone.

O.city
08-15-2012, 07:34 PM
Don't wanna turn this into a Cassel thread, but I will say the guy looked more confident the other night than he has in a while.


I'm anxious to see how he can do when he has to come off his first read. Probably shit, but anxious to see.



Fact is, we really don't need him to be Brees or Rodgers esque. Just drive the machine and make crucial plays when he's called upon. Like Milkman, I don't think you need a franchise top of the line qb to win a SB, you need a guy who can make the critical plays when need be. Just so happens that the two happen to intertwine for the most part.

petegz28
08-15-2012, 07:36 PM
That wasn't his reputation as a defensive coach. He is an unbelievable technical coach, unbelievable defensive strategist, and terrific dealing with players. But so is Norv Turner on the offensive side of the ball. His reputation in the past is that he is a player's coach that players love. When he was in Cleveland, players walked all over him after some time.

It's not like there isn't a long history to base this off of. Maybe he's learned from Cleveland and I hope he has. But right now, you can't pretend that his track record doesn't exist or make excuses for why it happened the first time around.

Do you think he let the players in NE walk all over him?

O.city
08-15-2012, 07:37 PM
Do you think he let the players in NE walk all over him?

As a coordinator id doesn't really matter as much.

petegz28
08-15-2012, 07:39 PM
As a coordinator id doesn't really matter as much.

:facepalm:

chiefzilla1501
08-15-2012, 07:40 PM
Do you think he let the players in NE walk all over him?

It's not like he would be the first terrific coordinator who wasn't able to motivate his players nearly as well as a head coach. They are two totally different responsibilities.

BigRedChief
08-15-2012, 07:40 PM
Every organization places blame on the people who left. Sometimes deserving, sometimes not. In this case, both are probably true.

petegz28
08-15-2012, 07:42 PM
And in fairness to both DV and Haley, those called plays are designed to have multiple permutations depending on the defense they encounter. The key to a system like that is for everyone to read the same thing and execute the right permutation.

That said, without any real games played so far, all of the players and coaches seem to have more of a spring in their step (or at least sound like they do when they're interviewed) this preseason.

And I can remember Trent Green going off on the sidelines during the Philly game because the play that was called was bunk, he knew it was bunk and wouldn't work and was not allowed to check out and the end result was not well.

The problem with not allowing the QB to check out of plays is the OC doesn't know how a defense is going to lineup. And by the time he does the headsets are off and he can't call in an change to the QB. So it's up to the QB to read the defense and be the final judge as to whether or not the play has a chance based on the defensive alignment.

patteeu
08-15-2012, 07:43 PM
And I can remember Trent Green going off on the sidelines during the Philly game because the play that was called was bunk, he knew it was bunk and wouldn't work and was not allowed to check out and the end result was not well.

The problem with not allowing the QB to check out of plays is the OC doesn't know how a defense is going to lineup. And by the time he does the headsets are off and he can't call in an change to the QB. So it's up to the QB to read the defense and be the final judge as to whether or not the play has a chance based on the defensive alignment.

You either didn't read my post or you don't believe it.

petegz28
08-15-2012, 07:44 PM
You don't think Cassel is that dumb? Then why is there talk that he was using Patriots terminology several years into his Chiefs' career?

There are lots of coaches who have pre-determined plays. In fact, a good chunk of them. And frankly, the reason why we ran the ball against a stacked defensive line is because... well... Cassel couldn't throw the ball well against a stacked line either.

Maybe the coaching limited him. But let's not try to pretend that a lot of his problems are because he just wasn't very good.

Yes, I don't think Cassel is dumb enough to consistently run the ball up the gut against stacked defenses. I do think Haley was egotistical enough to say "you run the play I call and only the play I call..."

chiefzilla1501
08-15-2012, 07:45 PM
And I can remember Trent Green going off on the sidelines during the Philly game because the play that was called was bunk, he knew it was bunk and wouldn't work and was not allowed to check out and the end result was not well.

The problem with not allowing the QB to check out of plays is the OC doesn't know how a defense is going to lineup. And by the time he does the headsets are off and he can't call in an change to the QB. So it's up to the QB to read the defense and be the final judge as to whether or not the play has a chance based on the defensive alignment.

That's not something that happened often. It's well known that the Al Saunders' Coryell offense relied on a scripted offense that pretty much set plays several plays in advance. Let's not act like because Green wanted to change the play call in one game, that means they audibled a lot.

The QB's basic audible responsibility is to spot the blitz and adjust the protections. I have never seen Cassel do this. He misses the hot read all the time. And teams started to blitz the daylights out of him once the Chiefs lost the running game, because they knew Cassel would never spot it.

Messier
08-15-2012, 07:45 PM
Haley clearly lost the team by the end. It seemed an obvious decision to let him go.

I think it was a case of someone getting promoted past their competency.

scho63
08-15-2012, 07:45 PM
It's all Bush's fault!

chiefzilla1501
08-15-2012, 07:47 PM
Yes, I don't think Cassel is dumb enough to consistently run the ball up the gut against stacked defenses. I do think Haley was egotistical enough to say "you run the play I call and only the play I call..."

Teams ran stacked defenses against us because they dared Cassel to throw the ball, and in most cases, Cassel couldn't do it. Teams were stacking the defense all game long.

And by the way, when we ran the ball into a stacked defense in 2010, it worked. When we opened the offense in any other year minus Jamaal Charles, it didn't work.

I don't think there's anything egotistical about the reality that the Chiefs were a run-first team. If Cassel wanted more opportunities in an open offense, then maybe he should take advantage of opportunities that the defense gifted for him.

Simplicity
08-15-2012, 07:47 PM
It was obvious Cassel and Haley were never on the same page. It is also clear that Cassel looked more relaxed just running the O last friday. Without Haley in his ear, I am anxious to see how Cassel does this year.

Haley sucked dee here. /thread

petegz28
08-15-2012, 07:47 PM
You either didn't read my post or you don't believe it.

Yes I did and my point still stands. There are times when plays get called and when the QB lines up and reads the defense it's obvious that play is not going to work or has little chance. If the QB gets to the line and see the safety sneaking down into the box and a run was called to that side it only makes sense to reverse the call or call a pass, etc.

Count Alex's Losses
08-15-2012, 07:47 PM
I have never seen Cassel do this. He misses the hot read all the time. And teams started to blitz the daylights out of him once the Chiefs lost the running game, because they knew Cassel would never spot it.

Clearly this part of Cassel's game has been fixed, since he hit Hillis for the TD.

Looking forward to Matt burning the blitz this season with his icy cold sword of footballing.

chiefzilla1501
08-15-2012, 07:49 PM
Haley clearly lost the team by the end. It seemed an obvious decision to let him go.

I think it was a case of someone getting promoted past their competency.

Would he have lost the team if Berry, Charles, and Moeaki didn't get hurt?

Would have lost the team if the Chiefs had a QB that was able to carry a team with no running game, which Cassel clearly could not?

It reminds of Tom Coughlin years ago. Did you know he was a few games away from getting fired because guys like Strahan and Tiki Barber were fed up with him being an asshole? With tough coaches, losing can be tough. I don't care who was head coach, it's not easy to win when Matt Cassel is your only QB option and the running game is led by Jackie Battle.

petegz28
08-15-2012, 07:49 PM
Teams ran stacked defenses against us because they dared Cassel to throw the ball, and in most cases, Cassel couldn't do it. Teams were stacking the defense all game long.

And by the way, when we ran the ball into a stacked defense in 2010, it worked. When we opened the offense in any other year minus Jamaal Charles, it didn't work.

I don't think there's anything egotistical about the reality that the Chiefs were a run-first team. If Cassel wanted more opportunities in an open offense, then maybe he should take advantage of opportunities that the defense gifted for him.

Would it maybe be because without JC in the past we were left without a running game? I don't think it is about being a run-first team or Cassel wanting more opportunities to go down field. It's a simple case of seeing a defense that is going to stuff the called play and checking out of it.

Count Alex's Losses
08-15-2012, 07:50 PM
Remember, Cassel was "without a running game" in his last two regular season games last year, but we still ran for over 100 yards in both games. And he led us to 10 points, total.

Poor Cassel.

chiefzilla1501
08-15-2012, 07:51 PM
It was obvious Cassel and Haley were never on the same page. It is also clear that Cassel looked more relaxed just running the O last friday. Without Haley in his ear, I am anxious to see how Cassel does this year.

Haley sucked dee here. /thread

There is nothing clear about running an offense well against a vanilla defense, and a defense that isn't particularly good in the first place. Especially when the majority of strikes were first-read wide open looks.

I'll believe it when he does it consistently against good defenses.

petegz28
08-15-2012, 07:51 PM
Would he have lost the team if Berry, Charles, and Moeaki didn't get hurt?

Would have lost the team if the Chiefs had a QB that was able to carry a team with no running game, which Cassel clearly could not?

It reminds of Tom Coughlin years ago. Did you know he was a few games away from getting fired because guys like Strahan and Tiki Barber were fed up with him being an asshole? With tough coaches, losing can be tough. I don't care who was head coach, it's not easy to win when Matt Cassel is your only QB option and the running game is led by Jackie Battle.

So what you're saying is, if everything was going swimingly he would have been fine but when faced with adversity he couldn't cut the mustard. A good coach isn't judged by how he handles things when things are going good but how he handles things when things are going bad.

petegz28
08-15-2012, 07:52 PM
Remember, Cassel was "without a running game" in his last two regular season games last year, but we still ran for over 100 yards in both games. And he led us to 10 points, total.

Poor Cassel.

I don't think anyone is saying Cassel doesn't need an effective running game, Clay

Simplicity
08-15-2012, 07:52 PM
There is nothing clear about running an offense well against a vanilla defense, and a defense that isn't particularly good in the first place. Especially when the majority of strikes were first-read wide open looks.

I'll believe it when he does it consistently against good defenses.

I'm just saying. Haley was holding Cassel back. Always in his ear, yelling at his face, kicking his nuts, etc.

chiefzilla1501
08-15-2012, 07:52 PM
Would it maybe be because without JC in the past we were left without a running game? I don't think it is about being a run-first team or Cassel wanting more opportunities to go down field. It's a simple case of seeing a defense that is going to stuff the called play and checking out of it.

The majority of 2010 involved running the ball into defenses that were stacking the line.

I don't understand what your point is. The strategy worked in 2010. The strategy of passing against a stacked line did not work because our QB failed to consistently execute.

Count Alex's Losses
08-15-2012, 07:54 PM
I don't think anyone is saying Cassel doesn't need an effective running game, Clay

My point was, people are saying Cassel was so helpless without a running game.

Uh, we ran for well over 100 yards in his last two games last season. And he sucked in both games.


It's because he sucks. Want me to show you the games from 2010, or 2011, or 2009, when he sucked WITH Jamaal Charles?

This shit happened.

Point is: Cassel can suck with, or without, a productive running game. He's capable of sucking and fucking up the game no matter the level of talent around him.

chiefzilla1501
08-15-2012, 07:54 PM
So what you're saying is, if everything was going swimingly he would have been fine but when faced with adversity he couldn't cut the mustard. A good coach isn't judged by how he handles things when things are going good but how he handles things when things are going bad.

I'm talking about how tough coaches are very unpopular when your team isn't winning, but very popular when you are winning. Especially true when you move from a disciplinary coach to an easy-going coach.

Yes, Coughlin was almost fired because his team struggled and his team revolted. He was very, very lucky to keep his job.

petegz28
08-15-2012, 07:55 PM
There is nothing clear about running an offense well against a vanilla defense, and a defense that isn't particularly good in the first place. Especially when the majority of strikes were first-read wide open looks.

I'll believe it when he does it consistently against good defenses.

Um, have you actually watched this team? Anyone who has watched this team for any amount of time could plainly see that this was the best pre-season showing we have had in 5-8 years. It wasn't about the win, though it was the first time since 2003 that we scored 27 points in a preseason game. It was about the fact that this team, for once, came out of the gate looking like a football team and leaving the fans excited about what they saw as opposed to "well it's only preseason but they better get it together...", which is what we have said for the last several years.

chiefzilla1501
08-15-2012, 07:56 PM
I'm just saying. Haley was holding Cassel back. Always in his ear, yelling at his face, kicking his nuts, etc.

You're basing that off of one preseason game.

There are plenty of reasons outside of Haley that give plenty of reason to believe Cassel is responsible for a lot of his own problems.

petegz28
08-15-2012, 07:57 PM
My point was, people are saying Cassel was so helpless without a running game.

Uh, we ran for well over 100 yards in his last two games last season. And he sucked in both games.


It's because he sucks. Want me to show you the games from 2010, or 2011, or 2009, when he sucked WITH Jamaal Charles?

This shit happened.

Point is: Cassel can suck with, or without, a productive running game. He's capable of sucking and ****ing up the game no matter the level of talent around him.

I am not saying Cassel has not had copius moments of suck. To be objective though I do think that while a lack of experience and talent played a good part of it, a merry-go-round of OC's with an asshole for a HC who kept meddling with shit didn't help anything either.

O.city
08-15-2012, 07:58 PM
Would he have lost the team if Berry, Charles, and Moeaki didn't get hurt?

Would have lost the team if the Chiefs had a QB that was able to carry a team with no running game, which Cassel clearly could not?

It reminds of Tom Coughlin years ago. Did you know he was a few games away from getting fired because guys like Strahan and Tiki Barber were fed up with him being an asshole? With tough coaches, losing can be tough. I don't care who was head coach, it's not easy to win when Matt Cassel is your only QB option and the running game is led by Jackie Battle.

I think he lost the team when he was running offensive formations, without Breaston, Bowe or Baldwin on the field and featuring Dexter.

Count Alex's Losses
08-15-2012, 07:58 PM
One thing people are ignoring here:

In one of the games where Haley was pouring molten hot magma from the seventh circle of hell into Cassel's earhole, CASSEL PLAYED REALLY FUCKING WELL.

http://chiefscommand.com/wp-content/uploads/leron_mcclain_breaks_up_argument_matt_cassel_todd_haley_vikings_2011_week_4.jpg

petegz28
08-15-2012, 07:58 PM
You're basing that off of one preseason game.

There are plenty of reasons outside of Haley that give plenty of reason to believe Cassel is responsible for a lot of his own problems.

I am basing that off of what I have seen in the past and what I has been said since Haley left. The preseason game was nothing more than a small contribution of evidence that in fact Haley may well have been a problem.

Count Alex's Losses
08-15-2012, 07:58 PM
I am not saying Cassel has not had copius moments of suck. To be objective though I do think that while a lack of experience and talent played a good part of it, a merry-go-round of OC's with an asshole for a HC who kept meddling with shit didn't help anything either.

That's not really relevant to the discussion, Frankie.

We're talking about how helpless he is without a running game.

Fact is the dude can be just as helpless with a running game.

Simplicity
08-15-2012, 07:59 PM
One thing people are ignoring here:

In one of the games where Haley was pouring molten hot magma from the seventh circle of hell into Cassel's earhole, CASSEL PLAYED REALLY ****ING WELL.

http://chiefscommand.com/wp-content/uploads/leron_mcclain_breaks_up_argument_matt_cassel_todd_haley_vikings_2011_week_4.jpg

Boom exactly! **** Haley.

O.city
08-15-2012, 07:59 PM
All the shit pete has said certainly didn't help Matt, but lots of QB's go thru offensive coordinators and etc. At this point in his career, it really shouldn't matter.



Might Daboll be the perfect fit for Matt? I don't know, he looked ok in the game and has seemingly had a good preseason.



But, until it's December and the Broncos or Raiders are in town, I'm not gonna make a decision on the matter.

petegz28
08-15-2012, 07:59 PM
That's not really relevant to the discussion, Frankie.

We're talking about how helpless he is without a running game.

Fact is the dude can be just as helpless with a running game.

UPS man didn't bring your blow up doll today, did he?

Count Alex's Losses
08-15-2012, 08:01 PM
Hey Cassel, fuck you.

http://i.imgur.com/y8KUN.gif

Later...

http://uranus.ckt.net/~gochiefs/bengals/haley%20parts%20the%20red%20sea%20copy.jpg

http://uranus.ckt.net/~gochiefs/bengals/chiefswin.gif

chiefzilla1501
08-15-2012, 08:02 PM
I am basing that off of what I have seen in the past and what I has been said since Haley left. The preseason game was nothing more than a small contribution of evidence that in fact Haley may well have been a problem.

Exactly.

You are basing it off one preseason game. And a game that was pure vanilla. Against a bad defense.

Simplicity
08-15-2012, 08:02 PM
Matt Cassel is going to shit on teams this year. Mark it.

Count Alex's Losses
08-15-2012, 08:03 PM
UPS man didn't bring your blow up doll today, did he?

Well, you completely went off on an unrelated tangent.

The point of "we should blame last year's results on the lack of a running game" is kinda bullshit.

We should recognize that.

DaneMcCloud
08-15-2012, 08:03 PM
Exactly.

You are basing it off one preseason game. And a game that was pure vanilla. Against a bad defense.

Pure vanilla? WTF? Did you see the game?

Count Alex's Losses
08-15-2012, 08:04 PM
Matt Cassel is going to shit on teams this year. Mark it.

I know one team he will be shitting on for sure.

Simplicity
08-15-2012, 08:04 PM
Exactly.

You are basing it off one preseason game. And a game that was pure vanilla. Against a bad defense.

I said.... He was more relaxed and looked like Daboll trusted Cassel and Cassel trusted Daboll. So whether it was pure vanilla or the ****ing best D in the league, he is more relaxed with the O.

O.city
08-15-2012, 08:04 PM
Losing the ACL trio certainly didn't help Haley. At all.


But we weren't exactly setting the world on fire with them during hte preseason or first game and a half.


Ultimately, Haley's teams seemed unprepared and became undisciplined, likely tuning him out.

I, like other have mentioned, am worried that it might go the otherway with Crennel and they become undisciplined.

Simplicity
08-15-2012, 08:05 PM
I know one team he will be shitting on for sure.

Nope. He is shitting on all opposing teams we will be playing this year. Every single one of them.

chiefzilla1501
08-15-2012, 08:05 PM
Pure vanilla? WTF? Did you see the game?

It's the first preseason game of the year. Defenses play vanilla. It isn't nearly the kind of defense Cassel is going to see when the regular season starts.

Messier
08-15-2012, 08:05 PM
Would he have lost the team if Berry, Charles, and Moeaki didn't get hurt?

Would have lost the team if the Chiefs had a QB that was able to carry a team with no running game, which Cassel clearly could not?

It reminds of Tom Coughlin years ago. Did you know he was a few games away from getting fired because guys like Strahan and Tiki Barber were fed up with him being an asshole? With tough coaches, losing can be tough. I don't care who was head coach, it's not easy to win when Matt Cassel is your only QB option and the running game is led by Jackie Battle.

But we did lose those players. They always have that saying about how a coach had his best year as a coach in a losing season, well, the opposite happened for Haley. Injuries happen, sorry, you don't have a great QB, neither do 20 other teams. He started Palko again and again, despite Pioli saying, here's Orton, now you can bench Pako.

Coughlin is a jerk and a tough guy, but his team is disciplined. Haley was lost before the season last year, people were talking about it during training camp. The Chiefs weren't nearly ready for the season, and it lead to some of the injuries and the train wrecks at the start. That's all on Haley.

O.city
08-15-2012, 08:06 PM
Curious Zilla, what in Haley's past makes you think he got such a raw deal?

Count Alex's Losses
08-15-2012, 08:06 PM
Boom exactly! **** Haley.

Yeah, fuck Haley for getting Matt to turn in a winning effort against the Vikings.

With a mediocre running game, i might add. We had barely 100 yards.

DTLB58
08-15-2012, 08:07 PM
I don't think Cassel is dumb, either.

He just sucks at football. Inaccurate, mediocre arm, doesn't read defenses particularly well.

Smart guy. Shit QB.

There's also an entire sequence from the Seattle game that clearly shows Cassel had the ability to change plays, because the guy checked into a running play at the goal line in that game, or changed the direction of it or something. It was on HBO.

If he was a smart guy he could read defenses.

O.city
08-15-2012, 08:07 PM
IF the Vikings performance from Cassel were to become the floor or the norm for the year, we would be a really tought football team to beat.

O.city
08-15-2012, 08:08 PM
If he was a smart guy he could read defenses.

Not necessarily.



I don't really think he has a problem reading the d, I think it's more of a reactionary thing and knowing what to do when he actually does read it.

Simplicity
08-15-2012, 08:08 PM
Yeah, **** Haley for getting Matt to turn in a winning effort against the Vikings.

With a mediocre running game, i might add. We had barely 100 yards.

Okay the "Cassel hate" from everyone here is about 3 years old. I hope he makes every Cassel critic suck their own d's.

Count Alex's Losses
08-15-2012, 08:08 PM
If he was a smart guy he could read defenses.

Dan Marino is a mouth breathing meathead but he could read a defense.

Some guys are good at football, some aren't.

O.city
08-15-2012, 08:09 PM
Dan Marino is a mouth breathing meathead but he could read a defense.

Some guys are good at football, some aren't.

I would tend to agree here.




Ever hear some of these guys talk? They aren't the sharpest tools in the shed, but they can figure it out.

Count Alex's Losses
08-15-2012, 08:09 PM
IF the Vikings performance from Cassel were to become the floor or the norm for the year, we would be a really tought football team to beat.

Vikings were the 26th ranked passing defense. 31st overall.

In the end it has nothing to do with Todd Haley.

Cassel plays well against bad defenses. Like Minnesota.

O.city
08-15-2012, 08:10 PM
Vikings were the 26th ranked passing defense. 31st overall.

In the end it has nothing to do with Todd Haley.

Cassel plays well against bad defenses. Like Minnesota.

Their defense really went to shit then, was pretty good a year or two ago.

chiefzilla1501
08-15-2012, 08:13 PM
Curious Zilla, what in Haley's past makes you think he got such a raw deal?

He was micromanaged from a front office that was going through great lengths to purposely sabotage him. He was handed a lemon of a QB and told to make lemonade. He had freak bad luck by 3 key players getting injured, including Charles, who is the catalyst of this team. And his decision to start Tyler Palko... sorry, but it's Pioli's fault for not bringing in viable QB competition, not Haley's.

As I've said before, I don't know if Haley was the answer. I think he has potential to be a good head coach, but also has a lot of flaws he had to correct. But it has always rubbed me the wrong way when people want to blame coaches for things they didn't do. I defended Herm against idiots who blamed him for the team going on the downhill slide, nevermind that that was going to happen regardless of who coached. And I completely disagree with Haley critics who act like he coached himself out of his job.

Haley did a lot of very good things as a coach. And more than reasonable to ask what he would have done with a less immature front office and a front office that wasn't in complete denial about the abilities of his QB.

Discuss Thrower
08-15-2012, 08:13 PM
Matt Cassel is going to shit on teams this year. Mark it.

He's gonna get traded? /hurr hurr

Messier
08-15-2012, 08:14 PM
He was micromanaged from a front office that was going through great lengths to purposely sabotage him.

How do you know this?

Brock
08-15-2012, 08:16 PM
He was micromanaged from a front office that was going through great lengths to purposely sabotage him. He was handed a lemon of a QB and told to make lemonade. He had freak bad luck by 3 key players getting injured, including Charles, who is the catalyst of this team. And his decision to start Tyler Palko... sorry, but it's Pioli's fault for not bringing in viable QB competition, not Haley's.

As I've said before, I don't know if Haley was the answer. I think he has potential to be a good head coach, but also has a lot of flaws he had to correct. But it has always rubbed me the wrong way when people want to blame coaches for things they didn't do. I defended Herm against idiots who blamed him for the team going on the downhill slide, nevermind that that was going to happen regardless of who coached. And I completely disagree with Haley critics who act like he coached himself out of his job.

Haley did a lot of very good things as a coach. And more than reasonable to ask what he would have done with a less immature front office and a front office that wasn't in complete denial about the abilities of his QB.

But we can't make excuses for Romeo Crennel.

JASONSAUTO
08-15-2012, 08:18 PM
"completely disagree with people that say Haley coached himself out of a job"

Are you fucking serious?
HO LEE FUCK
Posted via Mobile Device

O.city
08-15-2012, 08:18 PM
He was micromanaged from a front office that was going through great lengths to purposely sabotage him. He was handed a lemon of a QB and told to make lemonade. He had freak bad luck by 3 key players getting injured, including Charles, who is the catalyst of this team. And his decision to start Tyler Palko... sorry, but it's Pioli's fault for not bringing in viable QB competition, not Haley's.

As I've said before, I don't know if Haley was the answer. I think he has potential to be a good head coach, but also has a lot of flaws he had to correct. But it has always rubbed me the wrong way when people want to blame coaches for things they didn't do. I defended Herm against idiots who blamed him for the team going on the downhill slide, nevermind that that was going to happen regardless of who coached. And I completely disagree with Haley critics who act like he coached himself out of his job.

Haley did a lot of very good things as a coach. And more than reasonable to ask what he would have done with a less immature front office and a front office that wasn't in complete denial about the abilities of his QB.

You can't put the palko thing on one and not the other. He gave him Orton, who he could have started in Chicago. Sorry, but thats the truth.


I don't like to put it on coaches either, but when you come out as unprepared as some of Haley's teams did last eyar, somethings gonna happen.

petegz28
08-15-2012, 08:20 PM
Losing the ACL trio certainly didn't help Haley. At all.


But we weren't exactly setting the world on fire with them during hte preseason or first game and a half.


Ultimately, Haley's teams seemed unprepared and became undisciplined, likely tuning him out.

I, like other have mentioned, am worried that it might go the otherway with Crennel and they become undisciplined.

Haley proved how bad of a HC he was last year when faced with the lockout. 31 other teams somehow managed to come out looking like football teams. We came out still in camp mode.

Simplicity
08-15-2012, 08:21 PM
http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ0x9PpxmZakKvuUEGM9-ca5osTrw-dwryxraX1r5T5n31honvRngFi8NlnnA

chiefzilla1501
08-15-2012, 08:21 PM
Not necessarily.



I don't really think he has a problem reading the d, I think it's more of a reactionary thing and knowing what to do when he actually does read it.

I set a much higher bar.

I'm not interested in a QB managing a team to the Super Bowl. If a QB is to play a game management role, I expect the QB to make big plays against great defenses and do so consistently. Cassel got a lot of credit for shredding bad defenses and either shitting the bed or getting bailed out by his running game or defense in 2010. That's different from a guy like early-career Big Ben or Brady, who were efficient during the game, but nails in the 4th quarter when asked to be.

If Cassel proves he can do these things, great. I haven't seen him make hot reads. I haven't seen him go through progressions. I haven't seen him recognize his pocket. If anyone recalls my history, I was among the most patient but I said I'd give him a year and a half to prove these things. He hasn't.

I am not an unreasonable person. But I"m not going to let one game sway my opinion. If he does this against several good defenses and he's not being bailed out by a running game or wide open check downs, great. But he's a QB for a team that has Super Bowl potential so I expect something more than a guy who has to have every single piece in place for him to get us deep into the playoffs.

petegz28
08-15-2012, 08:21 PM
All the shit pete has said certainly didn't help Matt, but lots of QB's go thru offensive coordinators and etc. At this point in his career, it really shouldn't matter.



Might Daboll be the perfect fit for Matt? I don't know, he looked ok in the game and has seemingly had a good preseason.



But, until it's December and the Broncos or Raiders are in town, I'm not gonna make a decision on the matter.

At this point in his career? Dude has had 4 OC's in 4 years and going on his 5th. What other QB has had to deal with that?

chiefzilla1501
08-15-2012, 08:23 PM
But we can't make excuses for Romeo Crennel.

Todd Haley improved his team markedly. Romeo did not. Romeo was fired for a body of subpar work. Haley was fired because of a half a season in a year marred with bad luck.

There's a difference. I thought Haley was fired under bad circumstances. While I didn't agree with the Herm hire, I thought he was fired unjustly for things that failed that were outside of his control. I thought the Romeo firing in Cleveland was completely justified and you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone outside of Kansas City who didn't believe that too.

Messier
08-15-2012, 08:24 PM
Haley proved how bad of a HC he was last year when faced with the lockout. 31 other teams somehow managed to come out looking like football teams. We came out still in camp mode.

This is the biggest indictment of Haley I have. There is no excuse not to at least have the team ready to open the season.

Messier
08-15-2012, 08:25 PM
Todd Haley improved his team markedly. Romeo did not. Romeo was fired for a body of subpar work. Haley was fired because of a half a season in a year marred with bad luck.

There's a difference. I thought Haley was fired under bad circumstances. While I didn't agree with the Herm hire, I thought he was fired unjustly for things that failed that were outside of his control. I thought the Romeo firing in Cleveland was completely justified and you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone outside of Kansas City who didn't believe that too.

They both won 10 games in a season with subpar QBs.

petegz28
08-15-2012, 08:26 PM
He was micromanaged from a front office that was going through great lengths to purposely sabotage him. He was handed a lemon of a QB and told to make lemonade. He had freak bad luck by 3 key players getting injured, including Charles, who is the catalyst of this team. And his decision to start Tyler Palko... sorry, but it's Pioli's fault for not bringing in viable QB competition, not Haley's.

As I've said before, I don't know if Haley was the answer. I think he has potential to be a good head coach, but also has a lot of flaws he had to correct. But it has always rubbed me the wrong way when people want to blame coaches for things they didn't do. I defended Herm against idiots who blamed him for the team going on the downhill slide, nevermind that that was going to happen regardless of who coached. And I completely disagree with Haley critics who act like he coached himself out of his job.

Haley did a lot of very good things as a coach. And more than reasonable to ask what he would have done with a less immature front office and a front office that wasn't in complete denial about the abilities of his QB.

First of all Palko was Haley's pick. Secondly as has been stated, a coach shows his colors when things are going bad. It was him who insisted on the 3-way play calling orgy. It was him who drew a penalty because he couldn't control his temper.

While Haley managed to do some good and I won't slight him on that he also did a lot of bad.

Fired an OC two weeks before the season starts. Yea, he was so micro-managed by the FO that he was allowed to fire an OC two weeks before a season started. Get real.

JASONSAUTO
08-15-2012, 08:27 PM
Todd Haley improved his team markedly. Romeo did not. Romeo was fired for a body of subpar work. Haley was fired because of a half a season in a year marred with bad luck.

There's a difference. I thought Haley was fired under bad circumstances. While I didn't agree with the Herm hire, I thought he was fired unjustly for things that failed that were outside of his control. I thought the Romeo firing in Cleveland was completely justified and you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone outside of Kansas City who didn't believe that too. now you can't use part of something and them forget the other part when making an argument.

You said Pioli was undermining him. Part of that also came out that he wanted to fire Haley after the playoff season.

Haley was definitely not fired due to a "half season in a year marred with bad luck"
Posted via Mobile Device

petegz28
08-15-2012, 08:31 PM
I'll agree Pioli did have a bit of a heavy hand at times.

Matt Cassel=Pioli
Romeo Crennel as DC=Pioli
Charlie Weis=Pioli

But ANY coach allowed to fire an OC two weeks before a season in his rookie year as a HC and then allowed to be OC as well is not being micro-managed. Not even close.

Brock
08-15-2012, 08:33 PM
Todd Haley improved his team markedly. Romeo did not. Romeo was fired for a body of subpar work. Haley was fired because of a half a season in a year marred with bad luck. .

ROFL

Brock
08-15-2012, 08:34 PM
I'll agree Pioli did have a bit of a heavy hand at times.

Matt Cassel=Pioli
Romeo Crennel as DC=Pioli
Charlie Weis=Pioli

But ANY coach allowed to fire an OC two weeks before a season in his rookie year as a HC and then allowed to be OC as well is not being micro-managed. Not even close.

2 out of 3 of those things were for Haley's own good.

Messier
08-15-2012, 08:37 PM
Todd Haley improved his team markedly. Romeo did not. Romeo was fired for a body of subpar work. Haley was fired because of a half a season in a year marred with bad luck.

There's a difference. I thought Haley was fired under bad circumstances. While I didn't agree with the Herm hire, I thought he was fired unjustly for things that failed that were outside of his control. I thought the Romeo firing in Cleveland was completely justified and you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone outside of Kansas City who didn't believe that too.

Was it just bad luck the team was unprepared to start the season?

MotherfuckerJones
08-15-2012, 08:38 PM
I don't blame Haley for everything. Cassel isn't elite and he showed it under duress. The injuries last year were brutal. What I blame Haley for is his circus of a training camp, disorganization, his continuous play of Palko, and his bs offensive calling and not getting plays in on time. I blame the defense too bc we were blown out too much. But I blame haley for his lack of preparation

Brock
08-15-2012, 08:40 PM
Was it just bad luck the team was unprepared to start the season?

Nah. He played jazz, he took chances. If he made it through the the year he was going to experiment with NO training camp.

petegz28
08-15-2012, 08:40 PM
Zilla, I will be the first to say I was a Haley supporter. I accepted the firing of Galey 2 weeks before the season. I accepted though mentioned in his first year the excessive cussing out of players and coaches. His 2nd year I thought he took a big step in the right direction. He had Weis running the offense, he was calm and more leaderly though sometimes his in-game decisions really bothered me.

Then came last year and a challenge.

First was a short training camp. While 31 other teams were practicing football we were doing stretches before the field trip to the movies. T

he 3-way playcalling was an indictment of how bad he really might be. No coach in their right mind is ever going to condone playcalls going through 3 people before they get called into the QB. It's stupid, it costs your offense plenty of times and we saw it time and time again.

Then their was the refusal to play Stanzi at all over Palko at any time.

Then there was the temper tantrum penalty in NY.

Aside from the fact that at some point early last year I started speculating he was being too heavy handed in the playcalling with botht he coaches and Cassel.

He indeed coached himself out of a job. The smoothest year he had was when he was just the HC. His other two years were less than good because of his ego and insisting to be involved with the offense way too much.

Simplicity
08-15-2012, 08:40 PM
I blame Haley for everything. He was a ****ing idiot.

petegz28
08-15-2012, 08:41 PM
2 out of 3 of those things were for Haley's own good.

Oh I totally agree but they were dictated to him nonetheless. Although I doubt he argued much about Romeo.

Count Alex's Losses
08-15-2012, 08:44 PM
It's pretty well documented Gailey was forced on Haley by Clark Hunt, anyway.

He did the right thing if he thought it wasn't gonna work out long term. Might as well get your lumps out of the way and smile and nod when Clark tries to make football decisions.

petegz28
08-15-2012, 08:46 PM
It's pretty well documented Gailey was forced on Haley by Clark Hunt, anyway.

He did the right thing if he thought it wasn't gonna work out long term. Might as well get your lumps out of the way and smile and nod when Clark tries to make football decisions.

It is never the right thing to fire an OC two weeks before the season starts. You do it in the off-season. Not after you spent an entire off-season of OTA
s and then TC learning the system of someone only to fire someone 2 weeks before the show begins. It's ****ing idiotic as all hell.

petegz28
08-15-2012, 08:47 PM
And Gailey must not have been forced on Haley too much by the owner if he was allowed to get rid of him 2 weeks before the season. That doesn't sound like anything was being forced but more like Haley wanted control.

Count Alex's Losses
08-15-2012, 08:50 PM
Sorry, it's well documented. Clark told them to give Gailey a chance, because he had done such a good job the year before.

When Haley decided it wasn't gonna work out, he did what he had to do to move forward.

Count Alex's Losses
08-15-2012, 08:51 PM
It is never the right thing to fire an OC two weeks before the season starts.

The Chiefs would have had to get rid of him anyway, because that's what Haley wanted.

Why wait to do that when the team wasn't gonna win shit in 2009 anyway?

The Chiefs were probably a lot better for it in 2010, especially because the offense was quite productive in the final month of 09.

petegz28
08-15-2012, 08:55 PM
The Chiefs would have had to get rid of him anyway, because that's what Haley wanted.

Why wait to do that when the team wasn't gonna win shit in 2009 anyway?

The Chiefs were probably a lot better for it in 2010, especially because the offense was quite productive in the final month of 09.

Wow, the final month? How about you do it before TC at the least and maybe, just maybe it won't take you 12 games before you figure it out?

Simplicity
08-15-2012, 08:57 PM
I have no idea why people are still posting here. Haley ****ing blew donkey chunks. No way around it. /thread

durtyrute
08-15-2012, 08:59 PM
Zilla, I will be the first to say I was a Haley supporter. I accepted the firing of Galey 2 weeks before the season. I accepted though mentioned in his first year the excessive cussing out of players and coaches. His 2nd year I thought he took a big step in the right direction. He had Weis running the offense, he was calm and more leaderly though sometimes his in-game decisions really bothered me.

Then came last year and a challenge.

First was a short training camp. While 31 other teams were practicing football we were doing stretches before the field trip to the movies. T

he 3-way playcalling was an indictment of how bad he really might be. No coach in their right mind is ever going to condone playcalls going through 3 people before they get called into the QB. It's stupid, it costs your offense plenty of times and we saw it time and time again.

Then their was the refusal to play Stanzi at all over Palko at any time.

Then there was the temper tantrum penalty in NY.

Aside from the fact that at some point early last year I started speculating he was being too heavy handed in the playcalling with botht he coaches and Cassel.

He indeed coached himself out of a job. The smoothest year he had was when he was just the HC. His other two years were less than good because of his ego and insisting to be involved with the offense way too much.

That's all I can Stanz I can't Stanz no more

First, the man tried something different during camp. I'm sure he talked to Parcells or who the fuck ever and thought he was a genius by trying to be more conditioned than the rest of the league. He might have figured that he shouldn't have to teach grown men how to tackle or fucking catch.

Second, the three way orgy (that was funny by the way) was fucked up, but other coaches have done similar things. Two ways being the most common but what's one more bitch, really?

The temper tantrum shit has got to stop. He showed emotion. I don't give a fuck if he were to shit in his hand then throw it on the field, it showed he cared about the team. Have you ever seen Tomlin, Coughlin, or Cower they do/did the same type of shit. People bitched about Herm seeming to not care then we get Todd and people say "whoa, don't care too much" Fuck that, show me fire.

I don't fault him for Palko either. All of the people wanting a franchise qB are acting like we won't possibly have to go through the same shit with said qB. You watched the Raider game when the whole team ran a train on Palmer after just joining the team, right?

Haley fucked up, but damn it was his first gig. How many players are fuck ups in there first couple of years and still make it? How many times did you guys fuck up at your first job? I hope he succeeds, just not when we have to play against him.

petegz28
08-15-2012, 08:59 PM
I have no idea why people are still posting here. Haley ****ing blew donkey chunks. No way around it. /thread

Speaking of Haley and Donkeys, it was also very unprofessional and unsportsman like to not shake Josh McDaniels hand after we got butt stomped. A good coach would have shook his hand while telling him "people are saying shit about you" as opposed to just looking like a butt-hurt bitch.

petegz28
08-15-2012, 09:05 PM
That's all I can Stanz I can't Stanz no more

First, the man tried something different during camp. I'm sure he talked to Parcells or who the **** ever and thought he was a genius by trying to be more conditioned than the rest of the league. He might have figured that he shouldn't have to teach grown men how to tackle or ****ing catch.

Second, the three way orgy (that was funny by the way) was ****ed up, but other coaches have done similar things. Two ways being the most common but what's one more bitch, really?

The temper tantrum shit has got to stop. He showed emotion. I don't give a **** if he were to shit in his hand then throw it on the field, it showed he cared about the team. Have you ever seen Tomlin, Coughlin, or Cower they do/did the same type of shit. People bitched about Herm seeming to not care then we get Todd and people say "whoa, don't care too much" **** that, show me fire.

I don't fault him for Palko either. All of the people wanting a franchise qB are acting like we won't possibly have to go through the same shit with said qB. You watched the Raider game when the whole team ran a train on Palmer after just joining the team, right?

Haley ****ed up, but damn it was his first gig. How many players are **** ups in there first couple of years and still make it? How many times did you guys **** up at your first job? I hope he succeeds, just not when we have to play against him.

First, what he tried in camp that you call "different" the rest of the league called stupid. Why actually practice tackling and catching when you can stretch and go to the movies?

I think you agree with me on the Second

Thrid, the temper tantrum in NY was BS. He got a fucking penalty. There is being emotional and there is being stupid. I have never seen a coach get a penalty for that and it sets a bad tone and sends a bad message to the team.

Fourth, the NY game and possibly even the Steelers game but definitely the NY game was a perfect time to run Stanzi out for the 2nd half.

Finally I agree that it is common for people to fail first time around. Problem is Haley regressed in his 3rd year in the worst way. He will probably do just fine as an OC in Pit. I don't see him getting a HC job any time soon.

Marcellus
08-15-2012, 09:07 PM
I don't give a shit about any of it, I just want to see a winner on the field, the rest is just noise.

petegz28
08-15-2012, 09:08 PM
I don't give a shit about any of it, I just want to see a winner on the field, the rest is just noise.

7 days in a week. Chiefs play 1 day of the 7. Which means we get 6 days of noise.

Otter
08-15-2012, 09:11 PM
Let's not forget Haley worked for the candy wrapper nazi and had success before that period. I'll believe it was Haley's fault when I see it. Until then it's sorority girl pack mentality trying to convince one another they weren't part of the problem.

petegz28
08-15-2012, 09:12 PM
Let's not forget Haley worked for the candy wrapper nazi and had success before that period. I'll believe it was Haley's fault when I see it. Until then it's sorority girl pack mentality trying to convince one another they weren't part of the problem.

Had success at what? He was never a HC before here.

Count Alex's Losses
08-15-2012, 09:16 PM
I don't give a shit about any of it, I just want to see a winner on the field, the rest is just noise.

This is a good attitude to have.

Pioli doesn't win this year he needs to GTFO just like Haley.

Tribal Warfare
08-15-2012, 09:17 PM
Let's not forget Haley worked for the candy wrapper nazi and had success before that period. I'll believe it was Haley's fault when I see it. Until then it's sorority girl pack mentality trying to convince one another they weren't part of the problem.

pretty much

petegz28
08-15-2012, 09:17 PM
This is a good attitude to have.

Pioli doesn't win this year he needs to GTFO just like Haley.

Pioli has another 3 years at least and you know this.

durtyrute
08-15-2012, 09:22 PM
First, what he tried in camp that you call "different" the rest of the league called stupid. Why actually practice tackling and catching when you can stretch and go to the movies?

I think you agree with me on the Second

Thrid, the temper tantrum in NY was BS. He got a fucking penalty. There is being emotional and there is being stupid. I have never seen a coach get a penalty for that and it sets a bad tone and sends a bad message to the team.

Fourth, the NY game and possibly even the Steelers game but definitely the NY game was a perfect time to run Stanzi out for the 2nd half.

Finally I agree that it is common for people to fail first time around. Problem is Haley regressed in his 3rd year in the worst way. He will probably do just fine as an OC in Pit. I don't see him getting a HC job any time soon.

We will have to agree to disagree on some of that. I don't mind the penalty for being pissed. He put his heart into each and every game. I liked that about him.

Haley was definitely unconventional, and I think that was his biggest downfall. Gailey was forced on him and we all know that. That's the first fucked up thing right there. They tried to give it a go and didn't mesh. Most coaches might at least go half the season but Haley isn't most coaches, he unconventional, so he fired dat ass.

Mr Unconventional went on more 4th downs than any coach I've ever fucking seen and I loved it. Some of them hurt, but dammit it's new, it's fresh, it's unconventional.

Remember when we played Indy, and the game was extremely close, but our offense sucked the penis, so we lost? I believe he started either the second half or the beginning of the game with a fake on the kickoff. That was unconventional and that is what cost us the game.

I wanted to see Stanzi more than just about anyone, I would have loved it. But, I see why they didn't given the amount of time he had. They said he didn't even have the playbook until close to the end of the season. So keep going with Palkizy. He tried, he failed.

I fault Haley for a few things, but I think it has almost everything it takes to make it in this league.

JUST LIKE MUTHAFUCKIN RICKI STANZI..............................BITCHES!!!:evil:

Count Alex's Losses
08-15-2012, 09:23 PM
Pioli has another 3 years at least and you know this.

Nobody knows it, at this point.

We'll see if Clark extends his contract after this season.

If not, having a lame duck GM is an interesting situation.

Direckshun
08-15-2012, 09:24 PM
Yes, the Chiefs are taking all kinds of underhanded shots at Haley and Bowe these days.

Especially Haley.

Any failure in the past three years? His fault.

Now that he's gone, everything will be awesome. He was evil and the fruits of the devil.

Dude sucked but to blame him for everything makes me sick.

He was a disasterous coach, it seems, however.

I think you were the guy who posted a pic of a crazy skill-deprived formation that Haley put out there for a play, almost seeming to sarcastically piss on Pioli for acquiring the talent.

Something like Maneri, with Jerheme Urban out wide, a bunch of crazy stuff.

Let's not underestimate Haley's inabilities as a coach.

durtyrute
08-15-2012, 09:24 PM
Nobody knows it, at this point.

We'll see if Clark extends his contract after this season.

If not, having a lame duck GM is an interesting situation.

Our team is drastically better than the Herm years and a few of the Vermeil years. There is NO way Pioli is fired for AT LEAST 3 years.

Count Alex's Losses
08-15-2012, 09:26 PM
Hey, no one wanted Haley fired as much as I did.

But to blame him for everything and make him the scapegoat is stupid.

Scott Pioli was whistling through the graveyard if he thought going into the season with Tyler Palko as his #2 was a good idea.

Setsuna
08-15-2012, 09:26 PM
Haley will succeed and you all will despair...muahahahahaha!

petegz28
08-15-2012, 09:27 PM
Our team is drastically better than the Herm years and a few of the Vermeil years. There is NO way Pioli is fired for AT LEAST 3 years.

This is only the 5th time in Chiefs' history when we had 9 of our own #1 picks on the roster. 69,70,71 & 85 being the others.

Sorter
08-15-2012, 09:27 PM
Remember when we played Indy, and the game was extremely close, but our offense sucked the penis, so we lost? I believe he started either the second half or the beginning of the game with a fake on the kickoff. That was unconventional and that is what cost us the game.



Wrong. Bowe dropping a TD, and Cassel fucking up on 3rd down were IMO more important factors in that loss than our failed onside kick.

Count Alex's Losses
08-15-2012, 09:28 PM
Our team is drastically better than the Herm years and a few of the Vermeil years. There is NO way Pioli is fired for AT LEAST 3 years.

He has a five year contract.

I don't see the Chiefs turning him into a lame duck GM so either he's extended or fired after this season.

If we're worse than 8-8 this season Clark cans his ass IMO. There would be no good reason to extend a GM who produced 3 losing seasons in 4 years.

Brock
08-15-2012, 09:28 PM
Haley will succeed and you all will despair...muahahahahaha!

I'm sure he's as good a coordinator as Bruce Arians.

petegz28
08-15-2012, 09:28 PM
Wrong. Bowe dropping a TD, and Cassel ****ing up on 3rd down were IMO more important factors in that loss than our failed onside kick.

2 key plays of that game that killed us...

1. Bowe dropping the go ahead TD
2. DJ being called on a phantom PI that led to an Indy TD

Marcellus
08-15-2012, 09:30 PM
7 days in a week. Chiefs play 1 day of the 7. Which means we get 6 days of noise.

I am talking about trying to play the blame game for past failures. The truth will be played out. We will see if Pioli knows what he is doing and whether Haley will have success in Pitt and onward.

All that matters in the end to me is KC winning a playoff game and becoming an annual contender after that.

We are either headed that way or not. This year will go a long way towards determining if we are headed the right direction IMO.

Sorter
08-15-2012, 09:30 PM
2 key plays of that game that killed us...

1. Bowe dropping the go ahead TD
2. DJ being called on a phantom PI that led to an Indy TD

Forgot about #2. Been awhile since I've watched that tape.

Reerun_KC
08-15-2012, 09:34 PM
Why do people refer to.TV broadcasts as game tape or.film?

petegz28
08-15-2012, 09:36 PM
Why do people refer to.TV broadcasts as game tape or.film?

cause it's a tape of the game? :shrug:

Reerun_KC
08-15-2012, 09:38 PM
cause it's a tape of the game? :shrug:so funny.

Sorter
08-15-2012, 09:38 PM
Why do people refer to.TV broadcasts as game tape or.film?

Not sure bro.

Pasta Giant Meatball
08-15-2012, 09:40 PM
The team has definately looked much different since that boob's been fired. I know he's a scapegoat, but it's hard to argue right now.

Marcellus
08-15-2012, 09:43 PM
The team has definately looked much different since that boob's been fired. I know he's a scapegoat, but it's hard to argue right now.

Fuck I hate your avatar but I agree with your post.

Pasta Giant Meatball
08-15-2012, 09:45 PM
Fuck I hate your avatar but I agree with your post.

LMAO What's wrong with it?

petegz28
08-15-2012, 09:46 PM
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/SpH6e3jZrlM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

petegz28
08-15-2012, 09:50 PM
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/TAxcR9PcIf0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Marcellus
08-15-2012, 09:50 PM
LMAO What's wrong with it?

Everything.

My wife DVR's BB and I watched it once with her and was like WTF is that?

memyselfI
08-15-2012, 09:59 PM
He is not saying anything anyone with a brain and 20/20 vision did not see. Who had the guts to say it while Failey still ran rhe show? Certainly not Holtus.

chiefzilla1501
08-15-2012, 09:59 PM
now you can't use part of something and them forget the other part when making an argument.

You said Pioli was undermining him. Part of that also came out that he wanted to fire Haley after the playoff season.

Haley was definitely not fired due to a "half season in a year marred with bad luck"
Posted via Mobile Device

And that's exactly the problem. You have one that was fired because performance wasn't up to snuff. The other was fired clearly because of personality differences. Because we'd all agreed that the idea that a front office would want to fire a coach who made the playoffs in his second season... that says a lot about how much of that was due to coaching performance.

petegz28
08-15-2012, 10:00 PM
And that's exactly the problem. You have one that was fired because performance wasn't up to snuff. The other was fired clearly because of personality differences. Because we'd all agreed that the idea that a front office would want to fire a coach who made the playoffs in his second season... that says a lot about how much of that was due to coaching performance.

NFC West /cassel haters

And oh, yeah, who was the OC that year? Not Haley.

Mr. Laz
08-15-2012, 10:01 PM
And that's exactly the problem. You have one that was fired because performance wasn't up to snuff. The other was fired clearly because of personality differences. Because we'd all agreed that the idea that a front office would want to fire a coach who made the playoffs in his second season... that says a lot about how much of that was due to coaching performance.

what is your deal?

are you a big haley fan?
a big Pioli hater?
or you just trying to not be wrong?


something is up ... cut Haley the fuck loose, he's a steeler and the enemy.

chiefzilla1501
08-15-2012, 10:04 PM
Was it just bad luck the team was unprepared to start the season?

I never said it was.

But to say it was a fireable offense is ludicrous. As is the ridiculous idea that starting Palko should have costed him his job--regardless of whether Haley brought Palko in, Pioli could have brought in a 4th competitive QB option and forced Haley's hand. He didn't. Pioli, not Haley, was the one who decided that Palko was acceptable as the #2 QB.

When I look at most of the issues facing KC during the Haley era, I'll again repeat that most of them would have been resolved through more mature leadership in the front office. That's what I think was a shame about the Haley era. People want to blame it on Haley's immaturity. I think it had a lot more to do with Hunt and Pioli's arrogance -- in Pioli's defense, I think he's learned from it.

petegz28
08-15-2012, 10:13 PM
No, the check downs were all Cassel!!!!

Early in camp, Haley stressed the check down. Those things must be worked out, as with any new partnership. But Haley understands that, in Roethlisberger, he has a quarterback with a rare talent for fighting off the pass rush to make a play. His forte — shedding tacklers and making throws downfield — can put him at risk, but is part of his game.

"Ben's the type of player you want to be around," Haley said. "When you make a bad call or things break down, he can make it right."

"But at the same time I think Ben is capable of playing the game in a number of different ways. I think there's going to be times where we're directing the ball coming out in a certain fashion, other times he's going to be Ben and use one of his greatest strengths, which is a great field vision and finding guys that are open when he's under duress."

http://www.planetsteelers.com/forums/showthread.php/38017-Good-Haley-and-Ben-article

http://www.foxsportsohio.com/08/01/1...07&feedID=3665

chiefzilla1501
08-15-2012, 10:13 PM
what is your deal?

are you a big haley fan?
a big Pioli hater?
or you just trying to not be wrong?


something is up ... cut Haley the **** loose, he's a steeler and the enemy.

I don't like when coaches get blamed for mistakes of the front office. And I still wonder to this day if Haley could have grown into a very good coach if the front office had been more mature. This issue doesn't bother me as much because I've seen the front office mature and I don't think we'll see them repeat their stupid behavior during the Haley era. But it rubs me the wrong way when people throw coaches under the bus. It rubbed me the wrong way when Herm got thrown under the bus and, guess what, 3 years after he was fired people started agreeing with me. Fairly interesting, given that my defense of Herm destroyed my reputation here.

I am not a Pioli hater. I have said multiple times that I think he's done a terrific job with the Chiefs, but his arrogance on several issues could derail all the good he has done. And I'm not going to cut the shit loose, while people forgive mistakes that keep happening. Pioli is still on the hook for the Matt Cassel decision -- I listened to ball washers defend his 2010 season as being something spectacular, while realists saw what was really happening that year. Given how much ball washing has occurred because of one EXHIBITION game, I think we could see the same. And I think we'll see a repeat of 2010 where a very good team is held back by a good QB who looks good because every other piece was in place for him. And I fear that Pioli will defend his decision on Cassel barring some monumental collapse by the team.

I want to see this team win. I think Cassel will give us empty wins. And Romeo's track record makes me worry that we'll be strong for 2 years, then hit a Norv Turner level of softness in the years that follow.

Mr. Laz
08-15-2012, 10:14 PM
No, the check downs were all Cassel!!!!
Quote:
Early in camp, Haley stressed the check down. Those things must be worked out, as with any new partnership. But Haley understands that, in Roethlisberger, he has a quarterback with a rare talent for fighting off the pass rush to make a play. His forte shedding tacklers and making throws downfield can put him at risk, but is part of his game.

"Ben's the type of player you want to be around," Haley said. "When you make a bad call or things break down, he can make it right."

"But at the same time I think Ben is capable of playing the game in a number of different ways. I think there's going to be times where we're directing the ball coming out in a certain fashion, other times he's going to be Ben and use one of his greatest strengths, which is a great field vision and finding guys that are open when he's under duress."


http://www.planetsteelers.com/forums/showthread.php/38017-Good-Haley-and-Ben-article

http://www.foxsportsohio.com/08/01/1...07&feedID=3665

:hmmm:

Mr. Laz
08-15-2012, 10:16 PM
I don't like when coaches get blamed for mistakes of the front office. And I still wonder to this day if Haley could have grown into a very good coach if the front office had been more mature. This issue doesn't bother me as much because I've seen the front office mature and I don't think we'll see them repeat their stupid behavior during the Haley era. But it rubs me the wrong way when people throw coaches under the bus. It rubbed me the wrong way when Herm got thrown under the bus and, guess what, 3 years after he was fired people started agreeing with me. Fairly interesting, given that my defense of Herm destroyed my reputation here.

I am not a Pioli hater. I have said multiple times that I think he's done a terrific job with the Chiefs, but his arrogance on several issues could derail all the good he has done. And I'm not going to cut the shit loose, while people forgive mistakes that keep happening. Pioli is still on the hook for the Matt Cassel decision -- I listened to ball washers defend his 2010 season as being something spectacular, while realists saw what was really happening that year. Given how much ball washing has occurred because of one EXHIBITION game, I think we could see the same. And I think we'll see a repeat of 2010 where a very good team is held back by a good QB who looks good because every other piece was in place for him. And I fear that Pioli will defend his decision on Cassel barring some monumental collapse by the team.

I want to see this team win. I think Cassel will give us empty wins. And Romeo's track record makes me worry that we'll be strong for 2 years, then hit a Norv Turner level of softness in the years that follow.
wow ... so it was the front office that lack maturity?

:eek:


we're done here, nothing to see ... carry on.

chiefzilla1501
08-15-2012, 10:17 PM
No, the check downs were all Cassel!!!!



http://www.planetsteelers.com/forums/showthread.php/38017-Good-Haley-and-Ben-article

http://www.foxsportsohio.com/08/01/1...07&feedID=3665

Kurt Warner didn't have a checkdown offense.

And the reason Big Ben is being asked to check down is because his last OC was fired because his offense built around letting Big Ben freelance in a wide open offense was going to literally get the guy killed.

Big Ben has a unique ability to extend a play because he can take a beating. That doesn't mean you should build your offense around the hope that he can do that at this stage in his career.

petegz28
08-15-2012, 10:18 PM
Kurt Warner didn't have a checkdown offense.

And the reason Big Ben is being asked to check down is because his last OC was fired because his offense built around letting Big Ben freelance in a wide open offense was going to literally get the guy killed.

Big Ben has a unique ability to extend a play because he can take a beating. That doesn't mean you should build your offense around the hope that he can do that at this stage in his career.

2 SB rings.....

chiefzilla1501
08-15-2012, 10:19 PM
wow ... so it was the front office that lack maturity?

:eek:


we're done here, nothing to see ... carry on.

You were the one defending the front office after the Arrowhead Anxiety story. So I don't take much stock in your comment here.

You'd have to be Ray Charles not to see that there wasn't a clearly toxic environment throughout Arrowhead during this time that started all the way from the top.

petegz28
08-15-2012, 10:19 PM
I give it 4 games, and that I think is generous, before Haley and Ben go at it on the sidelines because Ben wants to sling the rock and Haley is calling 2 yard outs on 3rd and 9.

Brock
08-15-2012, 10:21 PM
I never said it was.

But to say it was a fireable offense is ludicrous. As is the ridiculous idea that starting Palko should have costed him his job--regardless of whether Haley brought Palko in, Pioli could have brought in a 4th competitive QB option and forced Haley's hand. He didn't. Pioli, not Haley, was the one who decided that Palko was acceptable as the #2 QB.

That damn Pioli and his meddling, except when he didn't meddle enough.

petegz28
08-15-2012, 10:22 PM
This statement just lends more credibility to my thoughts on Haley and his offensive playcalling here...

"But at the same time I think Ben is capable of playing the game in a number of different ways. I think there's going to be times where we're directing the ball coming out in a certain fashion, other times he's going to be Ben and use one of his greatest strengths, which is a great field vision and finding guys that are open when he's under duress."

What he is saying is on top of calling the play he will be dictating to Ben where to throw the ball instead of calling the play and letting Ben figure out who is open and make the play.

Count Alex's Losses
08-15-2012, 10:22 PM
I give it 4 games, and that I think is generous, before Haley and Ben go at it on the sidelines because Ben wants to sling the rock and Haley is calling 2 yard outs on 3rd and 9.

Did you even watch the Cowboys when Haley was passing game coordinator?

The Cardinals when Haley was OC?

Down the field, jack.

Haley was saddled with a limp dick QB, so he formatted his game plan to compensate.

For fuck's sake, Frankie.

chiefzilla1501
08-15-2012, 10:23 PM
2 SB rings.....

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1282455-another-steelers-training-camp-another-ben-roethlisberger-injury-revelation
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/players/6770/injuries.html

The guy is now over 30 years old. He's gotten beaten the hell up the last few years and he has the scars to prove it. I don't think anyone would argue that changing the offense to start protecting him for the last 5 years of his career isn't a bad idea.

chiefzilla1501
08-15-2012, 10:25 PM
That damn Pioli and his meddling, except when he didn't meddle enough.

There is nothing meddlesome about adding a 4th QB to the mix and letting Haley make the decision on who to cut. It's one thing to surround the guy with the right option and him being too stubborn to let the guy go. It's another thing when you don't surround him with options and then blame him when you have to exercise that option.

petegz28
08-15-2012, 10:25 PM
Did you even watch the Cowboys when Haley was passing game coordinator?

The Cardinals when Haley was OC?

Down the field, jack.

Haley was saddled with a limp dick QB, so he formatted his game plan to compensate.

For ****'s sake, Frankie.

Pittsburgh Steelers President Art Rooney voiced his concern with the team's running game by dumping offensive coordinator Bruce Arians. As Kurt Warner can tell you, new hire Todd Haley is not afraid to spread teams out. Haley also is not afraid to shove the ball down your throat when the situation dictates, like when he with the Kansas City Chiefs.

Haley sent a blunt message to his bosses and players about his vision for "Steelers football" during the team's first padded practice over the weekend.

Haley barely called a single pass.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d82aea41d/article/todd-haley-sends-pittsburgh-steelers-a-message

Brock
08-15-2012, 10:27 PM
There is nothing meddlesome about adding a 4th QB to the mix and letting Haley make the decision on who to cut. It's one thing to surround the guy with the right option and him being too stubborn to let the guy go. It's another thing when you don't surround him with options and then blame him when you have to exercise that option.

You just said adding a 4th QB would "force Haley's hand".

LOCOChief
08-15-2012, 10:28 PM
Yes, the .... are taking all kinds of underhanded shots at .................

Any failure in the past three years? His fault.

He is evil and the fruits of the devil.

Dude sucks but to blame him for everything makes me sick.

Oh , now I get it.


wait who are we talking about?

Chiefnj2
08-15-2012, 10:28 PM
The Chiefs were more prepared in week 1 of preseason with Romeo than they were week 3 of the regular season with Haley.

Count Alex's Losses
08-15-2012, 10:28 PM
Yeah, whatever.

Haley is all about throwing the ball and throwing it down the field.

If you actually look at what happened early last season, especially preseason, Haley was trying to turn Cassel into a real QB. We were trying to throw the ball down the field.

Weis was all about that short passing game with Cassel, because he knew Cassel couldn't do anything else.

Haley tried, and failed, to fix Cassel.

And he lost his job over it.

Ben Roethlisberger will rape faces this year, and I'll bet Haley's offense kicks ass.

petegz28
08-15-2012, 10:29 PM
Theoretically, under Haley's scheme, we'll see a little more running, more throws to the tight end and more short passes to set up the play-action

http://espn.go.com/nfl/trainingcamp12/story/_/page/claytoncamp120728/nfl-five-observations-pittsburgh-steelers-training-camp

petegz28
08-15-2012, 10:30 PM
Yeah, whatever.

Haley is all about throwing the ball and throwing it down the field.

If you actually look at what happened early last season, especially preseason, Haley was trying to turn Cassel into a real QB. We were trying to throw the ball down the field.

Weis was all about that short passing game with Cassel, because he knew Cassel couldn't do anything else.

Haley tried, and failed, to fix Cassel.

And he lost his job over it.

Ben Roethlisberger will rape faces this year, and I'll bet Haley's offense kicks ass.

WTF? He didn't call 1 pass in the first preseason game for Cassel. Not fucking 1!!!!

chiefzilla1501
08-15-2012, 10:30 PM
You just said adding a 4th QB would "force Haley's hand".

Yes, if Pioli brought in a backup QB like Brady Quinn in 2011, Haley would have been forced to decide whether to keep Quinn or Palko.

There's a difference between not cutting Palko because you need a veteran backup, and not cutting Palko because you were too stubborn and loyal to cut him. If Pioli brought in a 4th QB and Haley refused to cut Palko, that would be one thing. But that didn't happen. That would have been a way of nudging a coach to make a decision but still giving the coach autonomy to make the call. For that matter, in 3 years, Pioli never gave Haley a serious competitive alternative to Cassel.

The QB fiasco is mostly on Pioli.

Brock
08-15-2012, 10:32 PM
Yes, if Pioli brought in a backup QB like Brady Quinn in 2011, Haley would have been forced to decide whether to keep Quinn or Palko.

There's a difference between not cutting Palko because you need a veteran backup, and not cutting Palko because you were too stubborn and loyal to cut him. If Pioli brought in a 4th QB and Haley refused to cut Palko, that would be one thing. But that didn't happen. That would have been a way of nudging a coach to make a decision but still giving the coach autonomy to make the call. For that matter, in 3 years, Pioli never gave Haley a serious competitive alternative to Cassel.

The QB fiasco is mostly on Pioli.

You're being fucking ridiculous. Rick Stanzi could not possibly have played worse than Tyler Palko did. Haley made his choice, a goddamn awful one among many others, and he paid for it. Then he comes out and intimates that the place is bugged. Something was bugged, and it wasn't his office.

petegz28
08-15-2012, 10:34 PM
Tyler Palko turned the ball over on what, 3 straight plays against the Steelers? Are you really saying Stanzi could have done worse?

chiefzilla1501
08-15-2012, 10:35 PM
Pittsburgh Steelers President Art Rooney voiced his concern with the team's running game by dumping offensive coordinator Bruce Arians. As Kurt Warner can tell you, new hire Todd Haley is not afraid to spread teams out. Haley also is not afraid to shove the ball down your throat when the situation dictates, like when he with the Kansas City Chiefs.

Haley sent a blunt message to his bosses and players about his vision for "Steelers football" during the team's first padded practice over the weekend.

Haley barely called a single pass.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d82aea41d/article/todd-haley-sends-pittsburgh-steelers-a-message

You have no concept of the Steelers' offense. Arians' offense was built on a spread. It is a wide open offense and not one that is the best environment to run the ball. That meant Big Ben had to throw the ball a record # of times and it also meant he had to hold onto the ball and freelance. Big Ben is a terrific QB and only he could have made that work. But I'm sorry, I don't think any rational Steelers fan would complain if a more conservative approach kept Big Ben in a football uniform a few years longer. His style of play after the age of 30 is risky, especially given how beaten up he has become in the final years of his career.

The Titans adjusted their strategy with McNair. The Eagles have tried the same with Vick and should even tighter, given that he keeps getting knocked out of games. The 49ers adjusted their strategy with Steve Young because of concussions. I don't know why, given Big Ben's recent injury history, it should be disappointing if the Steelers do the same with Big Ben if it means extending his late career.

Messier
08-15-2012, 10:35 PM
Yeah, whatever.

Haley is all about throwing the ball and throwing it down the field.

If you actually look at what happened early last season, especially preseason, Haley was trying to turn Cassel into a real QB. We were trying to throw the ball down the field.

Weis was all about that short passing game with Cassel, because he knew Cassel couldn't do anything else.

Haley tried, and failed, to fix Cassel.

And he lost his job over it.

Ben Roethlisberger will rape faces this year, and I'll bet Haley's offense kicks ass.


Roethlisberger is gonna do some raping with or without Haley.

Everything you say here is absurd.

Count Alex's Losses
08-15-2012, 10:36 PM
WTF? He didn't call 1 pass in the first preseason game for Cassel. Not fucking 1!!!!

Yeah, and the next week in preseason, the first play call was a downfield pass (15+ yards) off play action.

We had a huge discussion on here about it. It was obvious

3 out of the first 4 plays of 2011 against Buffalo were passes.

Haley is ALL ABOUT throwing the fucking ball down the field. Why do you think he was jacked up about drafting Baldwin? DEEP THREAT.

Count Alex's Losses
08-15-2012, 10:38 PM
Roethlisberger is gonna do some raping with or without Haley.

Everything you say here is absurd.

What's absurd is pinning Cassel's failures on Haley.

Cassel has ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS been a QB who SUCKED DICK at throwing the ball down the field.

It has NOTHING to do with Haley.

The sooner Frank-n-Petey gets that, the better.

chiefzilla1501
08-15-2012, 10:39 PM
You're being ****ing ridiculous. Rick Stanzi could not possibly have played worse than Tyler Palko did. Haley made his choice, a goddamn awful one among many others, and he paid for it. Then he comes out and intimates that the place is bugged. Something was bugged, and it wasn't his office.

I think you are making a really ridiculous judgment if you're suggesting it was a mistake not to start a 5th round rookie with no offseason training. I don't care what the Texans did with CJ Yates. There are a lot of coaches who would not put Stanzi in that kind of a situation, especially if they thought he wasn't ready. How ridiculous to blame somebody for that.

The bugging paranoia was crazy. But the Steelers, a pretty good organization, didn't seem to think it was a problem. And there have been multiple journalists that have pointed to KC being a strange place to work. Keep in mind that this airtight secret organization leaked several stories throughout the year about petty bullshit to undermine Haley, like going to a Lil Wayne concert or supposedly hitting up a pizza shop with his family before the Chicago game. There is a compelling enough story to suggest that they wanted to fire him after the playoff season, but instead chose to make his life so miserable that he would want to quit. Because no, I do not believe the Rooneys would be dumb enough to hire a narc unless they truly believed Haley's side of the story.

Chiefnj2
08-15-2012, 10:39 PM
Cassel has ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS been a QB who SUCKED DICK at throwing the ball down the field.

It has NOTHING to do with Haley.

.

So why was Haley trying to force a square peg into a round hole by calling an offense that asked Cassel to throw down field (your theory)? That's a fail on Haley.

chiefzilla1501
08-15-2012, 10:40 PM
Roethlisberger is gonna do some raping with or without Haley.

Everything you say here is absurd.

Haley's new offense will keep Big Ben on the field.

Arians' offense would have put Ben in retirement in 2 years. Arians' treatment of Ben in that offense could qualify as abusive.

petegz28
08-15-2012, 10:40 PM
What's absurd is pinning Cassel's failures on Haley.

Cassel has ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS been a QB who SUCKED DICK at throwing the ball down the field.

It has NOTHING to do with Haley.

The sooner Frank-n-Petey gets that, the better.

Amazing Bowe got all those yards

Messier
08-15-2012, 10:41 PM
What's absurd is pinning Cassel's failures on Haley.

Cassel has ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS been a QB who SUCKED DICK at throwing the ball down the field.

It has NOTHING to do with Haley.

The sooner Frank-n-Petey gets that, the better.

Haley losing his job had nothing to do with Cassel. Actually, that's not true, Haley might his job if Cassel hadn't gotten hurt, but I doubt it.

Haley had the team unprepared for the season. You disagree?

petegz28
08-15-2012, 10:42 PM
You have no concept of the Steelers' offense. Arians' offense was built on a spread. It is a wide open offense and not one that is the best environment to run the ball. That meant Big Ben had to throw the ball a record # of times and it also meant he had to hold onto the ball and freelance. Big Ben is a terrific QB and only he could have made that work. But I'm sorry, I don't think any rational Steelers fan would complain if a more conservative approach kept Big Ben in a football uniform a few years longer. His style of play after the age of 30 is risky, especially given how beaten up he has become in the final years of his career.

The Titans adjusted their strategy with McNair. The Eagles have tried the same with Vick and should even tighter, given that he keeps getting knocked out of games. The 49ers adjusted their strategy with Steve Young because of concussions. I don't know why, given Big Ben's recent injury history, it should be disappointing if the Steelers do the same with Big Ben if it means extending his late career.

Well if it's one thing we know Haley was good at doing it was calling a bunch of runs and short passes. Ben will be tickled pink I am sure.

chiefzilla1501
08-15-2012, 10:42 PM
Amazing Bowe got all those yards

Good lord.

So this really is turning into a "blame Haley for Cassel" thread.

Awesome. And around we go.

DaneMcCloud
08-15-2012, 10:42 PM
The Chiefs were more prepared in week 1 of preseason with Romeo than they were week 3 of the regular season with Haley.

Exactly and I've said as much recently. In addition, the Chiefs were a completely different team when RAC took over last year.

Brock
08-15-2012, 10:43 PM
I think you are making a really ridiculous judgment if you're suggesting it was a mistake not to start a 5th round rookie with no offseason training. I don't care what the Texans did with CJ Yates. There are a lot of coaches who would not put Stanzi in that kind of a situation, especially if they thought he wasn't ready. How ridiculous to blame somebody for that. .

Yeah, because Palko was obviously so much more experienced and polished than Stanzi was. No other coach in the league would have played Tyler Palko. Not one.

chiefzilla1501
08-15-2012, 10:43 PM
Well if it's one thing we know Haley was good at doing it was calling a bunch of runs and short passes. Ben will be tickled pink I am sure.

If Haley called plays the way he did in every game when Jamaal Charles was a feature back, the Steelers' offense will do just fine.

I don't think Big Ben will ever be pleased with the offense. But it's going to prolong his career.

Messier
08-15-2012, 10:44 PM
I don't understand all the Haley love, he was a train wreck., don't see how that's in doubt.

You guys much just hate Pioli that much more.

Brock
08-15-2012, 10:44 PM
Haley's new offense will keep Big Ben on the field.

Arians' offense would have put Ben in retirement in 2 years. Arians' treatment of Ben in that offense could qualify as abusive.

Funny how Ben lobbied hard for Arians to keep his job.

petegz28
08-15-2012, 10:45 PM
If Haley called plays the way he did in every game when Jamaal Charles was a feature back, the Steelers' offense will do just fine.

I don't think Big Ben will ever be pleased with the offense. But it's going to prolong his career.

Just a point of note...Jamal Charles plays in KC, not Pittsburgh. Haley did call those same plays without Jamall and we saw how that went. Arizona was also a terrible rushing team as well.

CoMoChief
08-15-2012, 10:47 PM
Todd Haley was fired because his ego got in the way of the success of the team.

These are facts:

Todd Haley fired his OC just a couple weeks before the regular season, basically wiped the slate clean and started from scratch. This is all while having a new QB that's had little starting experience 6-7 years of his playing career (dating back to NCAA).

Next season Haley was handed to him one of the best OC's in the biz in Weis, and they didn't get along. Multiple sources close to the team said that. This ultimately led to Weis leaving the NFL for NCAA for the same position due to "family reasons aka Haley's bullshit". And what does Haley do in response? He strips Weis his playcalling duties IN A PLAYOFF GAME when the score's 10-7 heading into the half. Then a year later Weis moves back to virtually the same area he left, only to coach one of the worst college programs in the country?

You don't have to be a rocket scientist to know that there's something wrong with that picture.

2011 yes there were injuries, 1 of which could have been avoided had Haley's head been screwed on straight. But instead took a wacky approach to the shortened NFL offseason due to the lockout. But while everyone was getting ready to play, the Chiefs were doing conditioning drills and treating games like 1/2 assed scrimmages. His approach led to Haley leaving his starters in the game until the 4th qtr of the 4th preseason game (honest question - has anyone done that before?). Moeaki then gets hurt. Injury prone yes, but that knee injury would not have happened if it weren't for Haley's decision to play the starters that late in a preseason game. Just foolish....like poking the fucking sleeping bear. JFC I just get pissed even thinking about this. Just stooooooooopid.

This lead to the Chiefs not looking anywhere close to 1/2 way prepared to playing regular season games, and scrubs like BUF come into Arrowhead and skull fuck us to death.

This team was just never prepared when Haley was HC. They were never on the same page. You had the OC saying one thing...Haley on the same channel screaming something else and yelling at coaches on the sidelines, and yet people wondered why this team was lining up in formation with 5 or under seconds left on the clock. Haley just could not let his offensive coord's coach without putting his hand into the cookie jar. Part of having a successful offense is getting into a groove with your QB and OC, and getting a feel for one another and the tempo of the game. Hate Cassel all you want but no QB was going to do that w/ Haley. There was a reason why Cassel played "well" under Weis. His stats weren't great but at least he didn't turn the ball over that often.



Now this team is MUCH more prepared....all coaches are all on the same page. The QB play should be significantly better because of that. Now Cassel will still be Cassel and will still have limitations on what he can and can't do. He's not an accurate passer on deep routes....he's a more of a "run a seam route and jump up and get it" kinda guy. He still needs to learn how to progress better through his reads. But he's able to change plays at the line more often now, he's got more talent than ever before. Our Oline will be this team's strongest link instead of it being a weak link. There's no reason at all Cassel can't perform like he did in 2010, or even better.

chiefzilla1501
08-15-2012, 10:47 PM
Funny how Ben lobbied hard for Arians to keep his job.

Of course he would. It's a great offense for Big Ben.

But it's also an offense that abused the shit out of him. Ben's a tough guy so of course he's going to believe he can power through it. But if I'm the Steelers front office, I'm not going to take that kind of a risk. There are lots of teams that pulled the reigns on a more freelancing QB in an effort to prolong their careers.

chiefzilla1501
08-15-2012, 10:49 PM
Just a point of note...Jamal Charles plays in KC, not Pittsburgh. Haley did call those same plays without Jamall and we saw how that went. Arizona was also a terrible rushing team as well.

The lack of production without Charles is a hell of a lot more of an indictment on Cassel than it is on Haley.

Mr. Laz
08-15-2012, 10:50 PM
You were the one defending the front office after the Arrowhead Anxiety story. So I don't take much stock in your comment here.

You'd have to be Ray Charles not to see that there wasn't a clearly toxic environment throughout Arrowhead during this time that started all the way from the top.
and now all the toxicity is gone? Poof!!

there was ZERO proof to all the bullshit

You chose to believe, just like you chose to believe that Todd Haley was a victim in everything.

one minute Pioli is forcing Haley to do things
the next he isn't forcing enough
one minute he is bugging Haley's phone
the next he is an absentee GM who left Haley to implode
one minute Pioli hired Haley
the next he was intentionally not signing talent to sabotage the guy he just hired.
then Clark Hunt WAS MAKING Pioli fire the guy that he was supposedly sabotaging

every bad player was Piolis fault
every good player was Haley's success
every game the Chiefs team/offense struggles you will cheer and say 'SEE!!!"
every game the Steelers win you will cheer and say 'SEE!!!"

all the rest will be rambling bullshit excuses

There is nothing that could be said or happen that would change your mind to blame Pioli and excuse Haley.

no point in discussing it anymore ...... at all.

Messier
08-15-2012, 10:50 PM
The lack of production without Charles is a hell of a lot more of an indictment on Cassel than it is on Haley.

The indictment of Haley is how he handled training camp and the injuries.

Messier
08-15-2012, 10:51 PM
and now all the toxicity is gone? Poof!!

there was ZERO proof to all the bullshit

You chose to believe, just like you chose to believe that Todd Haley was a victim in everything.

one minute Pioli is forcing Haley to do things
the next he isn't forcing enough
one minute he is bugging Haley's phone
the next he is an absentee GM who left Haley to implode
one minute Pioli hired Haley
the next he was intentionally not signing talent to sabotage the guy he just hired.
then Clark Hunt WAS MAKING Pioli fire the guy that he was supposedly sabotaging

every bad player was Piolis fault
every good player was Haley's success
every game the Chiefs team/offense struggles you will cheer and say 'SEE!!!"
every game the Steelers win you will cheer and say 'SEE!!!"

all the rest will be rambling bullshit excuses

There is nothing that could be said or happen that would change your mind to blame Pioli and excuse Haley.

no point in discussing it anymore ...... at all.

End of thread.

petegz28
08-15-2012, 10:52 PM
Of course he would. It's a great offense for Big Ben.

But it's also an offense that abused the shit out of him. Ben's a tough guy so of course he's going to believe he can power through it. But if I'm the Steelers front office, I'm not going to take that kind of a risk. There are lots of teams that pulled the reigns on a more freelancing QB in an effort to prolong their careers.

So you take a successful QB who has won you 2 SB's out of his comfort zone and expect the same results? I would not favor that but we shall see.

Count Alex's Losses
08-15-2012, 10:52 PM
So why was Haley trying to force a square peg into a round hole by calling an offense that asked Cassel to throw down field (your theory)? That's a fail on Haley.

It's not.

We were never going to win a championship with Cassel being a dink and dunk QB.

Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out. After that playoff game against the Ravens there was no doubt we had to get better at throwing the ball down the field. So what did we do? Draft Baldwin. Sign Steve Breaston.

Haley wanted to fix what killed us in 2010. He couldn't do it because of the shortened offseason and because Cassel will never, ever be anything beyond a dink and dunk QB.

So please don't blame Haley for Cassel's failures. There is nothing in his career that suggests he actually wants to run a dink and dunk offense...apart from Matt Cassel...who sucks at anything else.

Don't even like Haley as a HC....but Cassel is the reason Cassel sucks, not Todd Haley.

And fuck anyone who says otherwise.

petegz28
08-15-2012, 10:53 PM
The lack of production without Charles is a hell of a lot more of an indictment on Cassel than it is on Haley.

Yeah, cutting Gaither and keeping B-Rich was Cassel as well.

CoMoChief
08-15-2012, 10:56 PM
Yeah, cutting Gaither and keeping B-Rich was Cassel as well.

Yeah if there were 2 personnel moves I didn't understand it was the usage of McClain and Gaither.

Count Alex's Losses
08-15-2012, 10:58 PM
Yeah, cutting Gaither and keeping B-Rich was Cassel as well.

Who gives a fuck?

Cassel has sucked with Haley as OC and without Haley as OC.

He has sucked with Charles at RB and without Charles at RB.

If you can't see by now that he just fucking sucks, no matter the situation he's in, you're Frankenpetey.

petegz28
08-15-2012, 11:04 PM
Who gives a ****?

Cassel has sucked with Haley as OC and without Haley as OC.

He has sucked with Charles at RB and without Charles at RB.

If you can't see by now that he just ****ing sucks, no matter the situation he's in, you're Frankenpetey.

Yet we went to the playoffs without Haley as OC. :spock:

Messier
08-15-2012, 11:04 PM
Who gives a ****?

Cassel has sucked with Haley as OC and without Haley as OC.

He has sucked with Charles at RB and without Charles at RB.

If you can't see by now that he just ****ing sucks, no matter the situation he's in, you're Frankenpetey.

Will you please just take this season off, find a hobby or something, and come back after the season with your video.

Count Alex's Losses
08-15-2012, 11:08 PM
Yet we went to the playoffs without Haley as OC. :spock:

Jamaal Charles, baby!

NFC West, baby!

Do we really need to explain this to you again?

petegz28
08-15-2012, 11:09 PM
Jamaal Charles, baby!

NFC West, baby!

Do we really need to explain this to you again?

So Haley was only good here when we had Charles and played against the NFC West. And wasn't OC. Got it.

chiefzilla1501
08-15-2012, 11:10 PM
and now all the toxicity is gone? Poof!!

there was ZERO proof to all the bullshit
Other than an article that pulled together multiple interviews with Kansas City employees, many of whom were believed to be non-disgruntled employees who held no ill will toward the organization. Other than the fact that the Rooneys hired a supposed narc into their organization without hesitation. Other than the idea that multiple sources reporting the same thing isn't the obvious indication that "where there's smoke, there's fair." There are dozens of sources that hinted that there was a toxic environment at Arrowhead. You are absolutely naive if you want to deny that this stuff wasn't happening.

You chose to believe, just like you chose to believe that Todd Haley was a victim in everything.

one minute Pioli is forcing Haley to do things
the next he isn't forcing enough
I don't see why it would be a hard argument to make that Hunt/Pioli pushed Gailey/Weis hires. Maybe you say Haley should have learned to deal with it. But you are talking about two hires that didn't mesh with Haley and it's fair to ask if Haley could have functioned well with an open process where he had some actual say in who he worked with.

one minute he is bugging Haley's phone
the next he is an absentee GM who left Haley to implode

one minute Pioli hired Haley
the next he was intentionally not signing talent to sabotage the guy he just hired.
then Clark Hunt WAS MAKING Pioli fire the guy that he was supposedly sabotaging
I'm basing this off the story from the Gretz camp that he had sources that suggested this is exactly what was going on.



every bad player was Piolis fault
every good player was Haley's success
every game the Chiefs team/offense struggles you will cheer and say 'SEE!!!"
every game the Steelers win you will cheer and say 'SEE!!!"
Don't be ridiculous. Unlike you, I'm not a black and white guy. I've said Pioli has built a terrific team, but he's absolutely wrong on the QB decision. I like Pioli.


all the rest will be rambling bullshit excuses

There is nothing that could be said or happen that would change your mind to blame Pioli and excuse Haley.

no point in discussing it anymore ...... at all.

Well, we're stuck on this bullshit again. I have acknowledged Haley's mistakes and said he had flaws he had to iron out. 5 years ago, I said the same about Herm -- that he was not a Super Bowl coach, but that he was being unfairly blamed for poor performance during the rebuild.

I'm not the one taking extreme positions here. There are people here who say Haley flat out couldn't coach. I am the one saying he had plenty of good moments, some bad ones, and was also unfairly treated by the front office.

But of course, the extremists are the ones that are going to suggest I'm not the one being fair and balanced.

Count Alex's Losses
08-15-2012, 11:13 PM
So Haley was only good here when we had Charles and played against the NFC West. And wasn't OC. Got it.

:facepalm:

I'm not trying to argue that Haley was a good HC.

I am trying to argue that Cassel sucks, regardless of who his OC is, which I know you realize, so please just give me a high five.

chiefzilla1501
08-15-2012, 11:14 PM
Yeah, cutting Gaither and keeping B-Rich was Cassel as well.

If the indication was that Gaither was lazy, it is exactly the reason the Ravens, a very good football team who could have used Gaither cut him as well. It's not like the Chiefs were the only team to cut him. Frankly, I won't be one bit surprised if Gaither softens up after his big contract in San Diego.

Messier
08-15-2012, 11:19 PM
:facepalm:

I'm not trying to argue that Haley was a good HC.


That's odd, because the whole thread is about Haley, and if people thought he was helping or hurting.

Now, respond without mentioning Cassel.

chiefzilla1501
08-15-2012, 11:23 PM
That's odd, because the whole thread is about Haley, and if people thought he was helping or hurting.

Now, respond without mentioning Cassel.

In the front office's defense, the way they've reacted since the Arrowhead Anxiety story leads me to believe they've changed. You can tell that everyone from the top down has been making a really heavily concerted effort to fix their PR. I think it's a shame it took that kind of a fallout to learn that lesson. But they learned it nonetheless.

I just hope that the team also takes that lesson and becomes honest in how they evaluate Cassel.

mcaj22
08-15-2012, 11:35 PM
Yeah, cutting Gaither and keeping B-Rich was Cassel as well.

yea Gaither is doing a really good job being lazy, injury prone and lacking a worth ethic that a team is now scrambling to try and protect their franchise QB after making the mistake of giving that guy a deal.

petegz28
08-16-2012, 06:32 PM
Shit, MSN Red Zone piled on tonight. Said one of the biggest differences between this camp and the last 3 years was not having "1 coach" who was yelling and screaming at people on every single play.

el borracho
08-16-2012, 07:51 PM
It is beyond belief that some people want more involvement from Cassell. Beyond belief.