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Mr. Laz
08-17-2012, 01:06 PM
Video captures Michigan man's shooting by police
http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/16/us/michigan-police-shooting/index.html

From Jason Carroll and Sheila Steffen, CNN
updated 10:12 AM EDT, Fri August 17, 2012
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Man killed by cops, shot multiple times

STORY HIGHLIGHTS


Milton Hall was killed in a confrontation with police in Saginaw, Michigan
"It appeared to be a firing squad dressed in police uniforms," his mother says
Prosecutors and state police are investigating Hall's killing
His family says he was mentally ill and questions why the probe is taking so long

Saginaw, Michigan (CNN) -- Three days before Independence Day, Milton Hall died in a fusillade of police gunfire outside a strip mall.
He had been arguing with officers in a parking lot next to a shuttered Chinese restaurant when he was shot, in full view of passing motorists and while he was holding some sort of knife. Saginaw County Prosecutor Michael Thomas said later that the squad of police confronting him opened fire "because apparently, at this point in time, he was threatening to assault police."

Thomas' office and the Michigan State Police are investigating Hall's death. Saginaw Police Chief Gerald Cliff said Hall was "known to be an assaultive person" with "a long history" of contacts with law enforcement, "not only with police from our department but with the county."
Hall's cousin, Mike Washington, acknowledged Hall had been jailed for minor offenses like vagrancy in the past, but, "He was not violent." And Hall's mother is growing impatient with the probe and questions why police opened fire so furiously on her son, whom she said was mentally ill.

The chart blog: Mental health (http://thechart.blogs.cnn.com/category/mental-health,brain,addiction,adhd,psychology,depression,alzheimers/)

"It appeared to be a firing squad dressed in police uniforms," Jewel Hall told CNN from her hometown of Albuquerque, New Mexico. "There was another way. They did not have to kill him. He had not done anything. He was not violent. He was not a murderer. He was not a criminal."
Jewel Hall said her son had once trained as a civil right activist, been an avid reader and played football. He had lived in Saginaw for 35 years and received Social Security disability payments for a mental illness, but, "He knew his rights."

"Everybody knew him. The police knew him well," she said. "So that's another question: they knew him, so why? Why did they kill him?"

WJRT: Community questions police shooting (http://www.abc12.com/story/19300591/community-cries-out-with-questions-nearly-six-weeks-after-saginaw-homeless-man-police-shooting)

The July 1 shooting happened in a parking lot on West Genessee Avenue, a busy commercial strip on the north side of Saginaw. In a video purchased by CNN, shot by a motorist from across the street, the 49-year-old Hall is seen arguing with a half-dozen officers. For more than three minutes, he walks back and forth, and at one time appears to crouch in a "karate stance," according to the man who captured the scene.

Police said Hall had just had a run-in with a convenience store clerk. On the video, he tells police, "My name is Milton Hall, I just called 911. My name is Milton, and I'm p---ed off." When an officer tells him to put the knife down, he responds, "I ain't putting s--t down." He appears unimpressed by a police dog, telling officers, "Let him go. Let the motherf---ing dog go."

Finally, he turns to the left of the frame, where another officer had moved out of view a short time earlier. It's then that the police open fire with a reported 46 shots in a five-second hail of bullets.
"I'm stunned that six human beings would stand in front of one human being and fire 46 shots," Jewel Hall said. "I just don't understand that. It's a lot of pain in that because it only takes one shot, so the question is why?"

She questioned why none of the cameras in the police cars at the scene recorded the shooting -- "none of them work."

"So that's the question I have and the community has is, what's taking so long?" she said. "Why is not being transparent?"

Lou Palumbo, a former Long Island police officer, told CNN's "Anderson Cooper 360 (http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/)" that the video is "a perceptive nightmare" for a police department and could reflect a lack of training by the officers.

"This wasn't a scenario where he was discharging a weapon in their direction," he said.

But Palumbo added that the shooting may yet be determined to be justifiable. "One of the things the public has to understand, an individual wielding a knife at you at about 20 feet can be on top of you in a split second," he said. "The public doesn't know this because they don't do this for a living."

Neither state police nor the prosecutor's office would comment on the investigation. In a written statement to CNN, the state police said, "Our focus is on conducting a complete and thorough investigation, rather than a hasty one."

But Saginaw City Councilman Norman Braddock, who also has criticized the pace of the investigation, said the probe should be a "top priority."
When CNN showed Braddock the video, which he hadn't seen before, he said, "This is disturbing."

"I can see what people are traumatized at, looking at something like that," Braddock said. "We need answers."

Jewel Hall said her family is conducting its own investigation into the shooting, "and at the end of that investigation we will decide what next steps to take with our legal advisors."

Amnorix
08-17-2012, 01:23 PM
Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?!? Time to fire those officers, thankyouverymuch.

Your choices are:

1. keep talking, try to calm him down and get him to put down the knife.

2. let the dog go.

3. pretend that this is Fallujah circa 2006 and he has a jacket full of explosives and is about to charge you.

They took option 3. They choose......poorly.

Demonpenz
08-17-2012, 01:25 PM
Quick Wrap Him with a shirt.

BIG_DADDY
08-17-2012, 01:27 PM
The is always a group of posters here that defend this action. The last time the kid with a crowbar coming out of a fast food restaurant. I am sure they will be here in 3, 2, 1 Bugeater.

BigMeatballDave
08-17-2012, 01:27 PM
Tasers probably would have come in handy here.

Brock
08-17-2012, 01:28 PM
See? /Wickedson

Amnorix
08-17-2012, 01:30 PM
Tasers probably would have come in handy here.


You're underestimating the threat that this guy posed with that knife. It's too bad they didn't have an AK-47 with them; as it was they were very lucky that those 30 bullets did the job and ended the threat that this man was posing to the police, innocent bystanders, that unreleased dog and the cat that was hanging out under the bushes a block over...

Mr. Laz
08-17-2012, 01:30 PM
Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?!? Time to fire those officers, thankyouverymuch.

Your choices are:

1. keep talking, try to calm him down and get him to put down the knife.

2. let the dog go.

3. pretend that this is Fallujah circa 2006 and he has a jacket full of explosives and is about to charge you.

They took option 3. They choose......poorly.
kinda my 1st impression too

1. no gun
2. not within 5 feet of another living being

I would think AT MOST it would take a single shot to the leg.

where are all the tazers they use on little old ladies?


The guy was clearly wrong but 30+ shots?

MIAdragon
08-17-2012, 01:31 PM
Wow, they ALL need to be fired and tried for murder.

Chief Gump
08-17-2012, 01:31 PM
Quick Wrap Him with a shirt.

LMAO

Radar Chief
08-17-2012, 01:32 PM
Quick, sprinkle some crack on him.

FYP. /Chappelle

Chiefnj2
08-17-2012, 01:33 PM
sounds like a fireworks finale going off.

Donger
08-17-2012, 01:36 PM
So, he has a knife, is refusing to put it down, moves toward the officer on the left and gets shot as a result?

MIAdragon
08-17-2012, 01:36 PM
sounds like a fireworks finale going off.

It was the finale for the dude at the pointy end of the guns.

Amnorix
08-17-2012, 01:36 PM
kinda my 1st impression too

1. no gun
2. not within 5 feet of another living being

I would think AT MOST it would take a single shot to the leg.

where are all the tazers they use on little old ladies?


The guy was clearly wrong but 30+ shots?


He didn't even make a threatening MOVE. If he'd been wielding a machete and started to move towards the cops, then I'd get what happened here. As it is, IMHO they need to be fired and potentially face criminal charges for second degree murder.

jd1020
08-17-2012, 01:38 PM
Quick Wrap Him with a shirt.

ROFL

Not sure why they shot him. I was told they wouldn't do that if it were a human. Ooops.

Amnorix
08-17-2012, 01:39 PM
So, he has a knife, is refusing to put it down, moves toward the officer on the left and gets shot as a result?


Maybe I'm missing something -- where is the cop on the left? There was one over there, but he moved into position with the rest of his buddies in the group. I watched again and didn't see him heading toward any officer.

Mr. Laz
08-17-2012, 01:40 PM
Maybe I'm missing something -- where is the cop on the left? There was one over there, but he moved into position with the rest of his buddies in the group. I watched again and didn't see him heading toward any officer.

http://images.fanpop.com/images/image_uploads/Please-Don-t-Feed-the-Troll-atsof-573296_300_336.jpg

MIAdragon
08-17-2012, 01:41 PM
So, he has a knife, is refusing to put it down, moves toward the officer on the left and gets shot as a result?

Yes he had a knife like object, and was clearly an immediate threat to the officers they surely had to use such force.

BIG_DADDY
08-17-2012, 01:42 PM
Yes he had a knife like object, and was clearly an immediate threat to the officers they surely had to use such force.

OK, Bugeater. :rolleyes:

BIG_DADDY
08-17-2012, 01:43 PM
Hey Laz, didn't you post that one of the cops coming to the wrong address, knocking down their doors and shooting their dogs? What ever happened in that case?

jd1020
08-17-2012, 01:44 PM
Maybe I'm missing something -- where is the cop on the left? There was one over there, but he moved into position with the rest of his buddies in the group. I watched again and didn't see him heading toward any officer.

Maybe I didn't watch far enough but I see 4 cops standing infront and 1 off to the left. They show the picture and then the guy on the left is gone but there are still only 4 cops infront. At one point you can see a canine officer behind the silver car on the left. Then after he is shot there are cops coming out from behind the bushes on the left @ 2:00 just before it cuts out to the interviews.

MIAdragon
08-17-2012, 01:44 PM
OK, Bugeater. :rolleyes:

http://sarcasmmeter.net/sarcasm_detector.jpg

Donger
08-17-2012, 01:45 PM
Maybe I'm missing something -- where is the cop on the left? There was one over there, but he moved into position with the rest of his buddies in the group. I watched again and didn't see him heading toward any officer.

I presume that the cop that is there on the left around 1:40 moved back behind the bush thing (in the video). If you continue, you can see a white cop SUV over there.

Amnorix
08-17-2012, 01:47 PM
Yes he had a knife like object, and was clearly an immediate threat to the officers they surely had to use such force.

OK, Bugeater. :rolleyes:



Given his prior post (see below), I'm thinking he was being sarcastic here:



Wow, they ALL need to be fired and tried for murder.

Chief Gump
08-17-2012, 01:48 PM
If I have a knife and 5 officers with guns drawn are yelling at me to put it down and I don't and start advancing on one of them I fully expect to be shot down.

Hog Farmer
08-17-2012, 01:49 PM
Why did you shoot the guy 30 times ?

I ran outta bulletts.

Amnorix
08-17-2012, 01:50 PM
I presume that the cop that is there on the left around 1:40 moved back behind the bush thing (in the video). If you continue, you can see a white cop SUV over there.


At the 1:58 mark or so the cops are moving in on their victim and you see two cops come out of the bushes.

I'm supremely unconvinced that they were either close enough to be sufficiently threatened to open fire, and that they had exhausted other reasonable means to diffuse the situation.

Seriously, WTF do you spend thousands of dollars training police dogs to do if you're just going to throw a hail of lead at a guy with a KNIFE. Not an Uzi, not even a fucking pistol. A KNIFE!

Mr. Laz
08-17-2012, 01:51 PM
Hey Laz, didn't you post that one of the cops coming to the wrong address, knocking down their doors and shooting their dogs? What ever happened in that case?
nope ... t'weren't me.

have no idea

jd1020
08-17-2012, 01:52 PM
At the 1:58 mark or so the cops are moving in on their victim and you see two cops come out of the bushes.

I'm supremely unconvinced that they were either close enough to be sufficiently threatened to open fire, and that they had exhausted other reasonable means to diffuse the situation.

Seriously, WTF do you spend thousands of dollars training police dogs to do if you're just going to throw a hail of lead at a guy with a KNIFE. Not an Uzi, not even a ****ing pistol. A KNIFE!

That dog costs more than the 30 bullets spent on him. They aren't going to release a dog on a guy with a deadly weapon threatening to use it if they release the dog.

Only 1 conclusion can be made from this... If you have a knife in your hand with 5+ officers with weapons drawn, drop the fucking knife.

ghak99
08-17-2012, 01:53 PM
:eek:.... :facepalm:

I'm not sure what I was expecting to see in the video, but that wasn't it!

I must have missed what he did to set them off, but I don't see any way to defend that amount of force. Assuming there was a threatening move to an officer to the left I missed, 1 shot could have put him down and two could have taken him out.

Not using the dog?.. no voltage?.. no crowd control chemical?.. Maybe the budget cuts in the county jail kitchen have them implementing a whole new game plan.:shrug:

Chiefnj2
08-17-2012, 01:53 PM
That dog costs more than the 30 bullets spent on him. They aren't going to release a dog on a guy with a deadly weapon threatening to use it if they release the dog.

Only 1 conclusion can be made from this... If you have a knife in your hand with 5+ officers with weapons drawn, drop the ****ing knife.

The dogs going to cost a lot less than the legal fees and jury award that goes to the man's family.

Donger
08-17-2012, 01:53 PM
At the 1:58 mark or so the cops are moving in on their victim and you see two cops come out of the bushes.

I'm supremely unconvinced that they were either close enough to be sufficiently threatened to open fire, and that they had exhausted other reasonable means to diffuse the situation.

Seriously, WTF do you spend thousands of dollars training police dogs to do if you're just going to throw a hail of lead at a guy with a KNIFE. Not an Uzi, not even a ****ing pistol. A KNIFE!

Like I said, he has a knife (a deadly weapon), is refusing to drop it, and moves toward a cop.

Chief Gump
08-17-2012, 01:54 PM
Aren't the police trained to just unload their clip when they open fire?

BIG_DADDY
08-17-2012, 01:55 PM
Like I said, he has a knife (a deadly weapon), is refusing to drop it, and moves toward a cop.

LMAO

jd1020
08-17-2012, 01:55 PM
The dogs going to cost a lot less than the legal fees and jury award that goes to the man's family.

LMAO

The guy had a deadly weapon in his hand and moved towards officers. What possible money are they going to receive? At most a couple of cops will get suspended for a couple weeks for excessive force.

Mr. Laz
08-17-2012, 01:57 PM
That dog costs more than the 30 bullets spent on him. They aren't going to release a dog on a guy with a deadly weapon threatening to use it if they release the dog.

Only 1 conclusion can be made from this... If you have a knife in your hand with 5+ officers with weapons drawn, drop the fucking knife.

absolutely no reason to shoot a guy 30+ times after he dropped like a stone after the 1st shot. None.

I didn't see the guy make any significant move towards anyone.

a single shot the the leg would of be enough, if not a single shot to the kneecap.

The fact that they ALL shot in unison should be enough to prove intent and get them fired.

complete bullshit

jd1020
08-17-2012, 01:58 PM
absolutely no reason to shoot a guy 30+ times after he dropped like a stone after the 1st shot. None.

I didn't see the guy make any significant move towards anyone.

a single shot the the leg would of be enough, if not a single shot to the kneecap.


complete bullshit

Single shot to the leg. This aint Hollywood.

Brock
08-17-2012, 01:58 PM
Same old murdering cop enabling idiots.

tooge
08-17-2012, 02:00 PM
Meh, I was more bummed about the dog. BTW, is, or should I say was he a midget or was he on his knees that entire time?

BIG_DADDY
08-17-2012, 02:00 PM
Same old murdering cop enabling idiots.

It gets more over the top every time.

ReynardMuldrake
08-17-2012, 02:00 PM
kinda my 1st impression too

1. no gun
2. not within 5 feet of another living being

I would think AT MOST it would take a single shot to the leg.

where are all the tazers they use on little old ladies?


The guy was clearly wrong but 30+ shots?

The danger zone for a knife-wielding attacker is more like 20 feet.

And the cops never, ever shoot for the legs. That's silly. It's called lethal force for a reason.

The only point of contention really is the number of rounds fired. I would have to defer to the cops on that one.

Chiefnj2
08-17-2012, 02:01 PM
LMAO

The guy had a deadly weapon in his hand and moved towards officers. What possible money are they going to receive? At most a couple of cops will get suspended for a couple weeks for excessive force.

I'm thinking a jury will award about $200k per bullet fired.

qabbaan
08-17-2012, 02:01 PM
Deadly force is deadly force. If someone decides to use it, there is no "amount" of deadly force that is justified. It's either justified or it isn't. One shot or a hundred are the same.

My question is just, why didn't they tase him instead. Tasers are for this situation, where it's too dangerous to subdue some violent nut job without using deadly force.

Mr. Laz
08-17-2012, 02:02 PM
Single shot to the leg. This aint Hollywood.
You're right because unlike Hollywood a single shot will make most people curl up on the ground and cry.

I know because i have been shot.

have you?

jd1020
08-17-2012, 02:02 PM
Deadly force is deadly force. If someone decides to use it, there is no "amount" of deadly force that is justified. It's either justified or it isn't. One shot or a hundred are the same.

My question is just, why didn't they tase him instead. Tasers are for this situation, where it's too dangerous to subdue some violent nut job without using deadly force.

Because the dude was wielding a knife? Just how far away do you think you can taze someone from?

tooge
08-17-2012, 02:03 PM
I once shot a man 46 times in Reno.......

Flachief58
08-17-2012, 02:03 PM
Note to self: While in Saginaw Michigan, do not fuck with the cops!

jd1020
08-17-2012, 02:03 PM
You're right because unlike Hollywood a single shot will make most people curl up on the ground and cry.

I know because i have been shot.

have you?

Cops dont aim for legs, arms, or heads you dumbass. They aim for the largest area... the torso.

qabbaan
08-17-2012, 02:03 PM
Because the dude was wielding a knife? Just how far away do you think you can taze someone from?

The police version of the Taser brand weapon is 21 feet.

Donger
08-17-2012, 02:05 PM
absolutely no reason to shoot a guy 30+ times after he dropped like a stone after the 1st shot. None.

I don;t know if what someone said earlier is accurate (about emptying the magazine), but it seems like after the first shot was fired, they all got an adrenaline charge.

I didn't see the guy make any significant move towards anyone.

Define significant.

a single shot the the leg would of be enough, if not a single shot to the kneecap.

I don't think these cops are quite the shooters that DEVGRU are.

The fact that they ALL shot in unison should be enough to prove intent and get them fired.

Not true. There is a distinct single shot fired first. Then they all join in.

Mr. Laz
08-17-2012, 02:05 PM
Because the dude was wielding a knife? Just how far away do you think you can taze someone from?

20 feet for old version of taser
30 feet for new version of taser

if the dude was further away then that then the officers were not any real danger from a knife.

mcaj22
08-17-2012, 02:06 PM
Michigan - guy with knife, kills nobody, gets shot 46 times

Colorado - guy shoots up movie theater, kills people, doesnt get shot/gets captured alive.

Demonpenz
08-17-2012, 02:07 PM
I saw this documentery called Desperado where a dude was accurately throwning knives

Donger
08-17-2012, 02:07 PM
The police version of the Taser brand weapon is 21 feet.

On a moving target?

vailpass
08-17-2012, 02:08 PM
Single shot to the leg. This aint Hollywood.

Exactly. Police are trained to go chest. This isn't Hollywood.

Donger
08-17-2012, 02:08 PM
Michigan - guy with knife, kills nobody, gets shot 46 times

Colorado - guy shoots up movie theater, kills people, doesnt get shot/gets captured alive.

The Colorado prick didn't resist arrest.

Mr. Laz
08-17-2012, 02:08 PM
Cops dont aim for legs, arms, or heads you dumbass. They aim for the largest area... the torso.
GFY

in a reasonably controlled situation like on the video, the clearly had time to have 1 shooter be selective about his shot.

You just don't care because it's not you.

jd1020
08-17-2012, 02:10 PM
GFY

in a reasonably controlled situation like on the video, the clearly had time to have 1 shooter be selective about his shot.

You just don't care because it's not you.

If it was me I would have dropped the ****ing knife. You're just an idiot who wants to trash cops, or "pigs" as you probably like to call them, any chance you get.

Show me the youtube video's of the cops who beat the shit out of kids skateboarding, not harming anyone, and I'll point to that cop as someone who needs to be removed immediately.

Show me the youtube video of the female police officer bashing a guys head in with a baton while the male officer has him on the ground and I'll point to that cop as someone who needs to be removed immediately.

Show me a video of some nut job holding a knife and refusing to drop it and moving towards officers get shot 30+ times and I'll not shed a tear.

Amnorix
08-17-2012, 02:13 PM
The Colorado prick didn't resist arrest.


Yeah too bad. I would've been fine with 30 shots at that fucker.

Mr. Laz
08-17-2012, 02:14 PM
If it was me I would have dropped the fucking knife. You're just an idiot who wants to trash cops, or "pigs" as you probably like to call them, any chance you get.
each a bag of shit you worthless pile of dog vomit

When did i call them 'pigs'?

more of your subjective bullshit,asshole dumbassery

I didn't trash anyone, i said they were wrong and it was bullshit

more of your make-believe see-what-you-want idiocy


This was about the video but you chose to make this about you and me. So why don't you do the world a favor and kill yourself. Make it a better place for us all.

MIAdragon
08-17-2012, 02:14 PM
Single shot to the leg. This aint Hollywood.

from 10' out, I would hope they could do that.

Donger
08-17-2012, 02:15 PM
Yeah too bad. I would've been fine with 30 shots at that ****er.

Indeed.

mcaj22
08-17-2012, 02:16 PM
get em Laz dont take no crap

qabbaan
08-17-2012, 02:16 PM
On a moving target?

I was just supplying an answer to the question.

A human can traverse a distance of 20 feet giving you about a second to react. A pistol training course or similar would break it down, but it takes almost a full second to react to what you are seeing (such as a person rushing forward) and for the last several feet you are at risk of hitting the intended victim and not the aggressor, so even at 20 feet you only have a second or so to react.

However, if there had been one or more Tasers present the officers could have positioned themselves surrounding the man during the "drop the knife" phase of the encounter, so as to get an easy shot.

To me, this does not look justified but I acknowledge the difficultly in the situation of making the snap judgement

Frazod
08-17-2012, 02:16 PM
Are we running low on crazy scumbags? Who gives a shit?

qabbaan
08-17-2012, 02:17 PM
from 10' out, I would hope they could do that.

I am guessing you dont have much experience with firearms.

Amnorix
08-17-2012, 02:19 PM
from 10' out, I would hope they could do that.

They aren't trained to do that, nor are cops typically expert shots.

demonhero
08-17-2012, 02:21 PM
He refused to obey cops and drop his weapon... advanced on cops.... you get shoot to kill order. Another POS of the streets.

A little much on the overkill, but these are cops.

MIAdragon
08-17-2012, 02:21 PM
I am guessing you dont have much experience with firearms.

A little.

ChiefsNow
08-17-2012, 02:21 PM
Rest in peace Lefty. We will miss you.


<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/neq3rr93XyM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

ChiefsNow
08-17-2012, 02:22 PM
Rest in peace Lefty. We will miss you.

They only shot me because I left my guard dog at home, they had to shoot something.

ReynardMuldrake
08-17-2012, 02:31 PM
GFY

in a reasonably controlled situation like on the video, the clearly had time to have 1 shooter be selective about his shot.

You just don't care because it's not you.

"Shoot the leg" is not going to stop an attacker high on PCP. It's going to lead to a dead officer. It's also an excellent way to accidentally tag an innocent bystander.

If I'm a cop, and I fire my weapon in the line of duty, it is 100% center body mass and I am shooting to kill.

Aspengc8
08-17-2012, 02:32 PM
I'm thinking a jury will award about $200k per bullet fired.

Really?

Prior history. Check.
Mental instability. Check.
Disobeying officers command to drop a deadly weapon. Check.
Advancing on officers. Check.

Dude was illin' for a killin'.

vailpass
08-17-2012, 02:36 PM
The dogs going to cost a lot less than the legal fees and jury award that goes to the man's family.

Not one penny.

Lonewolf Ed
08-17-2012, 02:45 PM
Why did you shoot the guy 30 times ?

I ran outta bulletts.

Either that or they thought he was a T-rex.

Dr. Facebook Fever
08-17-2012, 02:47 PM
I'm not thinking this is something I want to watch.

Inmem58
08-17-2012, 02:54 PM
I think rubber bullets would have worked just fine.

Frazod
08-17-2012, 02:56 PM
I'm not thinking this is something I want to watch.

It's just a phone video shot from across the street - can't really see any detail.

If you were expecting Sonny at the Toll Booth, you'll need to pop in The Godfather.

crazycoffey
08-17-2012, 02:57 PM
Really?

Prior history. Check.
Mental instability. Check.
Disobeying officers command to drop a deadly weapon. Check.
Advancing on officers. Check.

Dude was illin' for a killin'.

Yup. Its a growing problem. The sad part is unlike the crack head delinquent that chose to do PCP for retarded strength, mentally handicaps have it naturally and didn't ask for it.

Just this week a 17 yo bipolar autistic female took three adult males to restrain from running into the street. Hours went by and she was still bizerk. Crazy strength, spitting and bitting and Kicking every chance. Mom had to put her in a special vest and hold her in the car while the stay at home nurse drove them home from school. Very troublesome condition for everyone.

I haven't watched the video and doubt I will. Tired of theses debates where the armchair cops know everything. Though I'm sure 40 rounds in five seconds sounded extreme, I don't know enough back story to accurately give an opinion even if I did watch the video.

CoMoChief
08-17-2012, 03:12 PM
The only time you should ever fire a weapon at another person is if you think your life is in danger.

1 man against 6 cops? C'mon man. There is no threat there unless he has a gun.

And why would someone need to be shot 30 times?

Trouble is these days that cops are getting freaked out whenever they see a weapon in general, and immediately fear for their life and turn to the gun as a safety valve.

DJ's left nut
08-17-2012, 03:13 PM
To all the people that are bitching about the cops shooting a dog - you may want to go ahead and focus your energies here. When you waste time and capital complaining about cops shooting dogs, it undermines your ability to forward true outrage at actual injustices.

I'm usually generally on the law-enforcement side of these discussions (except for the time I wasn't), but this one sure looks really shitty from my chair.

ChiefsHawk
08-17-2012, 03:16 PM
i skipped most of the thread so idk whats been said. i will say my brother who is a cop wont risk his life to protect a criminal. hes seen a guy shot 5-8 times take it like nothing while high on meth or some crap to be shot a couple more times and drop. than suddenly jump up like nothing to finally die from a headshot. i dont blame those cops at all. put the knife down like your told and you wont get shot

durtyrute
08-17-2012, 03:16 PM
....and not one fucking thing will happen to the "officers"

CoMoChief
08-17-2012, 03:21 PM
i skipped most of the thread so idk whats been said. i will say my brother who is a cop wont risk his life to protect a criminal. hes seen a guy shot 5-8 times take it like nothing while high on meth or some crap to be shot a couple more times and drop. than suddenly jump up like nothing to finally die from a headshot. i dont blame those cops at all. put the knife down like your told and you wont get shot

6 guys can take care of 1 person.

There was no reason to fire a gun.

jd1020
08-17-2012, 03:24 PM
i skipped most of the thread so idk whats been said. i will say my brother who is a cop wont risk his life to protect a criminal. hes seen a guy shot 5-8 times take it like nothing while high on meth or some crap to be shot a couple more times and drop. than suddenly jump up like nothing to finally die from a headshot. i dont blame those cops at all. put the knife down like your told and you wont get shot

I remember a story about a cop who was in a fire fight with a guy that had a machine gun. Some neighbor called in and you could listen to the recording. The dude took something like 17 shots to the body before it ended with a lucky shot to his head.

Dunit35
08-17-2012, 03:25 PM
6 guys can take care of 1 person.

There was no reason to fire a gun.

And only one of the officers gets stabbed with a rusty knife or HIV infected syringe.

InChiefsHell
08-17-2012, 03:41 PM
I usually defer to the cops on this type of stuff, but just from the video it doesn't seem justified. Of course, everyone thought Trayvon Martin was just some innocent kid who got shot because someone just felt like it. As time went on, we found there was MUCH more to the story. I gotta believe there is much more to this story.

...but it looks fucking awful right now...

ChiefsHawk
08-17-2012, 03:41 PM
And only one of the officers gets stabbed with a rusty knife or HIV infected syringe.

crazy thing was the guy had a knife running around cutting himself saying he had aids

BIG_DADDY
08-17-2012, 03:42 PM
You have one really old retard at a distance with a dog and tasers and this is what you thought was appropriate? There are people who will stick up for cops no matter what.

BIG_DADDY
08-17-2012, 03:43 PM
crazy thing was the guy had a knife running around cutting himself saying he had aids

No, it was a rusty knife with needles.

ChiefsHawk
08-17-2012, 03:46 PM
You have one really old retard at a distance with a dog and tasers and this is what you thought was appropriate? There are people who will stick up for cops no matter what.

how the hell are they supposed to know if hes half tard, full tard, or high as shit. usually the people that complain about cops have records...

ChiefsHawk
08-17-2012, 03:47 PM
No, it was a rusty knife with needles.

i was referring to my story

CoMoChief
08-17-2012, 03:49 PM
And only one of the officers gets stabbed with a rusty knife or HIV infected syringe.

Then you shoot him in the leg and drop him.

You don't ****ing shoot the guy 30 ****ing times.

Brock
08-17-2012, 03:50 PM
I usually defer to the cops on this type of stuff, but just from the video it doesn't seem justified. Of course, everyone thought Trayvon Martin was just some innocent kid who got shot because someone just felt like it. As time went on, we found there was MUCH more to the story. I gotta believe there is much more to this story.

...but it looks fucking awful right now...

I'm sure there will be a backstory manufactured to protect our heroes in blue.

Brock
08-17-2012, 03:52 PM
how the hell are they supposed to know if hes half tard, full tard, or high as shit. usually the people that complain about cops have records...

Based on your second statement, I'm wondering if you're an example of the first.

BIG_DADDY
08-17-2012, 03:54 PM
how the hell are they supposed to know if hes half tard, full tard, or high as shit. usually the people that complain about cops have records...

Look at the video and justify it for what it was and quit trying to spin it somewhere else. What you're watching there is nothing less than an American execution.

crazycoffey
08-17-2012, 03:57 PM
Trouble is these days that people who have never been in this type of situation, wasn't in this situation, do not know the back story and have not been trained or experienced enough to give an accurate opinion still do.


FYP





oh and :Poke:

Demonpenz
08-17-2012, 04:02 PM
these police officers obviously trained playing Lethal enforcers

Donger
08-17-2012, 04:02 PM
Look at the video and justify it for what it was and quit trying to spin it somewhere else. What you're watching there is nothing less than an American execution.

:spock:

He has a knife (a deadly weapon), is refusing to drop it, and moves toward a cop.

Dunit35
08-17-2012, 04:05 PM
Then you shoot him in the leg and drop him.

You don't ****ing shoot the guy 30 ****ing times.

They are taught to shoot center mass, not at someones leg. 96/100 possible points in a shooting qualification is center mass.

I'm in no way justifying the 30 rounds fired, just disagree with the idea of charging at a guy with known mental illness who's carrying a knife.

Sorter
08-17-2012, 04:08 PM
Should have tased the bro, bro.

aturnis
08-17-2012, 04:11 PM
I believe with all my heart these 6 cops should be put to death...

vailpass
08-17-2012, 04:23 PM
Then you shoot him in the leg and drop him.

You don't ****ing shoot the guy 30 ****ing times.

Jesus. Still with this?

vailpass
08-17-2012, 04:23 PM
I believe with all my heart these 6 cops should be put to death...

LMAO

Dante84
08-17-2012, 04:28 PM
This isnt fucking nintendo.

46 goddamn shots. These fucking cops make other cops look bad.

BIG_DADDY
08-17-2012, 04:30 PM
:spock:

He has a knife (a deadly weapon), is refusing to drop it, and moves toward a cop.

There are many cops with lots of weapons and training with a dog and he is a crusty old curmudgeon at distance with a knife. The fact that that many cops would open fire and shoot 45 times and hit him 30 times is an execution, it's really that simple.

petegz28
08-17-2012, 04:31 PM
I never saw where the officers were threatened? Plus you can plaininly see and hear they kept firing after he was down.

Donger
08-17-2012, 04:31 PM
There are many cops with lots of weapons and training with a dog and he is a crusty old curmudgeon at distance with a knife. The fact that that many cops would open fire and shoot 45 times and hit him 30 times is an execution, it's really that simple.

What response would you have preferred?

petegz28
08-17-2012, 04:32 PM
Then you shoot him in the leg and drop him.

You don't ****ing shoot the guy 30 ****ing times.

Partially correct. Cops are not going to aim for a leg and I don't blame them. They are going to aim for the chest. However once he is dropped the firing needs to cease immediately.

petegz28
08-17-2012, 04:33 PM
What response would you have preferred?

Assuming the shooting was justified once the guy dropped it needed to stop. It didn't.

petegz28
08-17-2012, 04:34 PM
Just from what I can see I can plaininly hear at least 14 shots fired after the guy started to drop.

Donger
08-17-2012, 04:35 PM
Assuming the shooting was justified once the guy dropped it needed to stop. It didn't.

I don't disagree. I do wonder, admittedly morbidly, how many times he was actually hit out of the ~30 shots.

Brock
08-17-2012, 04:35 PM
A beanbag gun would have gotten it done in one shot.

Donger
08-17-2012, 04:36 PM
A beanbag gun would have gotten it done in one shot.

Did they have a beanbag gun?

BIG_DADDY
08-17-2012, 04:36 PM
What response would you have preferred?

Dude, the guy looked like he could barely walk. It doesn't matter what other option I would have preffered they obviously had several others and chose death by firing squad.

I think you are smarter than this. YOu are just arguing for the sake of argument at this point.

vailpass
08-17-2012, 04:37 PM
A beanbag gun would have gotten it done in one shot.

You don't shoot a guy in the beanbag. You just don't.

Dunit35
08-17-2012, 04:38 PM
I never saw where the officers were threatened? Plus you can plaininly see and hear they kept firing after he was down.

Again, not saying its justified. But, it is considered a threat if he's within 21 feet and attempts to raise a knife.

Donger
08-17-2012, 04:38 PM
Dude, the guy looked like he could barely walk. It doesn't matter what other option I would have preffered they obviously had several others and chose death by firing squad.

I think you are smarter than this. YOu are just arguing for the sake of argument at this point.

No, I'm asking what other response you would have preferred out of the "several others" they "obviously" had available to them. It seems you aren't willing to provide one.

crazycoffey
08-17-2012, 04:39 PM
This isnt fucking nintendo.

46 goddamn shots. These fucking cops make other cops look bad.

I don't really understand the infatuation with the number of shots, provided no bystanders were hit, etc; If deadly force is authorized, what's it matter if it takes one shot to kill him or 30? I know it doesn't sound "natural or normal" to hear that many shots, but killing a man isn't a natural thing.

If it can be proved that any one of the shots were not covered by use of force policy, than fry the cops asses. If all 46 shots are covered under the use of force policy then so what?

More people should be up at arms that this was a mentally unstable person, and more studies, knowledge, resources and training for mental illnesses are needed by medical, legal and law enforcement personnel. Try to prevent these type of situations preemptively with proper diagnosis, medicine and resources to treat the illnesses before the "voices" and "pain" in someone's head causes them to pull knives on police officers, or guns on movie goers.

DJ's left nut
08-17-2012, 04:40 PM
Then you shoot him in the leg and drop him.

You don't ****ing shoot the guy 30 ****ing times.

You watch too many movies.

You go ahead and try to shoot him in the leg. You're at least 50% likely to miss and then get stabbed.

Nobody - NOBODY - is trained to shoot at a leg. If you're in law enforcement and you are firing a weapon, you're trained to shoot for that large fleshy spot between their left and right arm.

This isn't Lethal Weapon.

BIG_DADDY
08-17-2012, 04:40 PM
You don't shoot a guy in the beanbag. You just don't.

LMAO

petegz28
08-17-2012, 04:42 PM
Again, not saying its justified. But, it is considered a threat if he's within 21 feet and attempts to raise a knife.

It appeared he did not take steps towards the officers but it is hard to tell.

petegz28
08-17-2012, 04:43 PM
I don't really understand the infatuation with the number of shots, provided no bystanders were hit, etc; If deadly force is authorized, what's it matter if it takes one shot to kill him or 30? I know it doesn't sound "natural or normal" to hear that many shots, but killing a man isn't a natural thing.

If it can be proved that any one of the shots were not covered by use of force policy, than fry the cops asses. If all 46 shots are covered under the use of force policy then so what?

More people should be up at arms that this was a mentally unstable person, and more studies, knowledge, resources and training for mental illnesses are needed by medical, legal and law enforcement personnel. Try to prevent these type of situations preemptively with proper diagnosis, medicine and resources to treat the illnesses before the "voices" and "pain" in someone's head causes them to pull knives on police officers, or guns on movie goers.

Let me put it this way, if you are prefectly justified in shooting someone in self-defense yet you continue to unload after the person is dropped you will be charged with excessive force and do jail time.

Dunit35
08-17-2012, 04:44 PM
It appeared he did not take steps towards the officers but it is hard to tell.

I dont know, I'm just going by what others said that he went towards them.

Valiant
08-17-2012, 04:44 PM
20 feet for old version of taser
30 feet for new version of taser

if the dude was further away then that then the officers were not any real danger from a knife.

Do not speak facts to JD.. anything closer then sniper range is deadly to cops..

I agree, city will be paying heavily.. Will be one of those we will give you millions and also say no fault to the police issues..

The seemed to be walking to me.. An aggressive move is like a charge or something quick.. I have seen countless times in these types of videos cops tazering people with knifes in this position.. What was different here?? If you go by JD's assumption that is a danger zone and the cops lives are in danger then why so few instances of using deadly force??

BIG_DADDY
08-17-2012, 04:45 PM
No, I'm asking what other response you would have preferred out of the "several others" they "obviously" had available to them. It seems you aren't willing to provide one.

Beanbag, taser, dog, sticks in that order, happy.

This is lame dude. It's hard for me to believe anyone would see that as justified much less you. Hell even getting in a car and slamming into him would have been a better option.

DJ's left nut
08-17-2012, 04:45 PM
I don't really understand the infatuation with the number of shots, provided no bystanders were hit, etc; If deadly force is authorized, what's it matter if it takes one shot to kill him or 30? I know it doesn't sound "natural or normal" to hear that many shots, but killing a man isn't a natural thing.

If it can be proved that any one of the shots were not covered by use of force policy, than fry the cops asses. If all 46 shots are covered under the use of force policy then so what?

More people should be up at arms that this was a mentally unstable person, and more studies, knowledge, resources and training for mental illnesses are needed by medical, legal and law enforcement personnel. Try to prevent these type of situations preemptively with proper diagnosis, medicine and resources to treat the illnesses before the "voices" and "pain" in someone's head causes them to pull knives on police officers, or guns on movie goers.

My understanding is that officers are trained to empty the clip, but I don't recall.

Again, it's under the idea that police officer do not shoot to wound. If they're pulling the trigger, whether or not you live or die is completely secondary.

I think this was a problem in preparation, however. WTF where they doing there with no non-lethal means at their disposal? Did nobody have pepper spray or a taser? They all had guns up and that's it.

Someone in that group of cops needed to have a non-lethal method of ending that encounter. I don't blame a single one of the officers; it was their training and they were confronted with deadly force. I do, however, blame a department that left a large group of officers without a non-lethal and safe method of neutralizing the situation.

petegz28
08-17-2012, 04:48 PM
My understanding is that officers are trained to empty the clip, but I don't recall.

Again, it's under the idea that police officer do not shoot to wound. If they're pulling the trigger, whether or not you live or die is completely secondary.

I think this was a problem in preparation, however. WTF where they doing there with no non-lethal means at their disposal? Did nobody have pepper spray or a taser? They all had guns up and that's it.

Someone in that group of cops needed to have a non-lethal method of ending that encounter. I don't blame a single one of the officers; it was their training and they were confronted with deadly force. I do, however, blame a department that left a large group of officers without a non-lethal and safe method of neutralizing the situation.

Officers are not trained to empty their clip. They are trained to double-tap and fire until the person is dropped and nothing more.

crazycoffey
08-17-2012, 04:48 PM
What is your policy on mental illness? Probably around 40% of the time we will take them into protective custody, usually transporting them to a mental health institute, costing taxpayers money.

PM'd.

ChiefMojo
08-17-2012, 04:48 PM
I just showed this to my brother-in-law and his buddy who are both cops. Both stated it was way to much force. Didn't say one word about my feelings on the matter before they responded.

First response out of my brother-in-law... these cops are freaking idiots, you could have dropped him with one or two shots. The other responds, why do you have to shoot at all, just taser him, there are five of you.

There next response is, these cops got very poor training.

Donger
08-17-2012, 04:49 PM
Beanbag, taser, dog, sticks in that order, happy.

This is lame dude. It's hard for me to believe anyone would see that as justified much less you. Hell even getting in a car and slamming into him would have been a better option.

We don't know if they had any non-lethal means available, except I suppose their night sticks. They probably didn't want their dog to be injured.

Anyway, he'd be alive right now if he'd just followed the lawful order to drop his weapon.

Johnny Vegas
08-17-2012, 04:49 PM
given that he was mentally ill they should've used non lethal force. if he has always been mentally ill it should've been through the radiowaves to the officers that who they're dealing with isn't a calculated killer, but a confused mentally ill citizen that needs to be subdued and not killed if threatened.

crazycoffey
08-17-2012, 04:51 PM
Let me put it this way, if you are prefectly justified in shooting someone in self-defense yet you continue to unload after the person is dropped you will be charged with excessive force and do jail time.

five seconds of shooting seems still in a reasonable window of time, but I'm not there, don't know.

I would guess if one of the officers ran up on the man and did a MW3 T-bag move three or four times before shooting the dead man 15 more times in the face and nuts I would be more than inclined to agree with you.

petegz28
08-17-2012, 04:53 PM
five seconds of shooting seems still in a reasonable window of time, but I'm not there, don't know.

I would guess if one of the officers ran up on the man and did a MW3 T-bag move three or four times before shooting the dead man 15 more times in the face and nuts I would be more than inclined to agree with you.

5 seconds? Dude, it has ntohing to do witht he amoutn of time. They kept firing a tleast 14 times after he was down. Once he drops they are supposed to stop. Cops do not shoot people to kill them per sey as opposed to difuse the threat which means drop him. Once he is dropped he is no longer a threat.

BIG_DADDY
08-17-2012, 04:54 PM
We don't know if they had any non-lethal means available, except I suppose their night sticks. They probably didn't want their dog to be injured.

Anyway, he'd be alive right now if he'd just followed the lawful order to drop his weapon.

HE was a retard dude.

LMAO at the dog comment. I'll bet that is totally true. They hold them way above the value of human life.

vailpass
08-17-2012, 04:56 PM
HE was a retard dude.

LMAO at the dog comment. I'll bet that is totally true. They hold them way above the value of human life.

Are they authorized to send the K9 unit at an armed man, knowing the dog is going to get shot or stabbed? I honestly don't know.

crazycoffey
08-17-2012, 04:59 PM
Are they authorized to send the K9 unit at an armed man, knowing the dog is going to get shot or stabbed? I honestly don't know.

It should be, dogs have an amazing immunization to knives. This whole mess could have been avoided if the crazy man's mom would have loved on him more....

vailpass
08-17-2012, 05:00 PM
It should be, dogs have an amazing immunization to knives. This whole mess could have been avoided if the crazy man's mom would have loved on him more....

Really?

Brock
08-17-2012, 05:00 PM
I wouldn't have sent the dog either. 2 or 3 cops with sticks would have made short work of this guy and sent him to the nuthouse more or less unharmed. This was just pure laziness combined with stupidity.

vailpass
08-17-2012, 05:01 PM
I wouldn't have sent the dog either. 2 or 3 cops with sticks would have made short work of this guy and sent him to the nuthouse more or less unharmed. This was just pure laziness combined with stupidity.

I don't blame the officers for not engaging an knife wielding mad man in hand to hand combat. Knife to a gunfight and all of that.

petegz28
08-17-2012, 05:02 PM
five seconds of shooting seems still in a reasonable window of time, but I'm not there, don't know.

I would guess if one of the officers ran up on the man and did a MW3 T-bag move three or four times before shooting the dead man 15 more times in the face and nuts I would be more than inclined to agree with you.

BTW, do you even realize how many rounds can be fired in 5 seconds? I can empty my 15 round clip in 5 seconds. Now multiply that by 6.

petegz28
08-17-2012, 05:03 PM
I wouldn't have released the dog but tazers were definitely called for.

petegz28
08-17-2012, 05:04 PM
Can someone tell if the cops had him surrounded? If not then it seems pretty clear when he took his steps he did not step towards the officers. In fact it looks like he was stepping on the other direction. I am trying to see if he started to turn his back to them.

crazycoffey
08-17-2012, 05:05 PM
Really?

It's true, in the breeding process the skin gets extra leathery and combine that with the long hair of the German Shepard, they are extremely knife resistant.

Brock
08-17-2012, 05:06 PM
I don't blame the officers for not engaging an knife wielding mad man in hand to hand combat. Knife to a gunfight and all of that.

There is a reason these type of fatal events are rare. Usually the cops know how to handle it properly. these guys clearly didn't, and they don't deserve to wear a badge.

The God Hypothesis
08-17-2012, 05:07 PM
Sooooo many better ways to handle this....hell run him over with a car ffs...jesus h. christ. 30 shots. Im a big PD supporter, my pops provide a great quality of life being a cop for 40 years, but these guys fucked up.

Also its tricky with the k9 unit, if these k9 officers get sooo close to their dogs that they won't use them in situations as intended, then wtf is the point.

vailpass
08-17-2012, 05:07 PM
There is a reason these type of fatal events are rare. Usually the cops know how to handle it properly. these guys clearly didn't, and they don't deserve to wear a badge.

OK but you don't expect police officers to engage in hand to hand combat with a knife wielding mad man do you?

vailpass
08-17-2012, 05:08 PM
It's true, in the breeding process the skin gets extra leathery and combine that with the long hair of the German Shepard, they are extremely knife resistant.

I'll be damned, did not know that. Still seems shitty to send them to a certain stabbing but I guess they are service dogs.

petegz28
08-17-2012, 05:08 PM
The more I watch this the more I can say every single officer who participated in this should be charged with murder or manslaughter or whatever. the guy was clearly down on the ground. He had a knife, not a gun so he couldn't potentially shoot them while down which would have justified the contiued shooting.

Donger
08-17-2012, 05:08 PM
I wouldn't have sent the dog either. 2 or 3 cops with sticks would have made short work of this guy and sent him to the nuthouse more or less unharmed. This was just pure laziness combined with stupidity.

Sort of like Rodney King?

petegz28
08-17-2012, 05:09 PM
OK but you don't expect police officers to engage in hand to hand combat with a knife wielding mad man do you?

No. But to continue firing 14 times AFTER the guy has been dropped is justified by what?

Brock
08-17-2012, 05:10 PM
Sort of like Rodney King?

Yeah, sure. Minus the whole beating him senseless after he's been taken down.

Donger
08-17-2012, 05:10 PM
Can someone tell if the cops had him surrounded? If not then it seems pretty clear when he took his steps he did not step towards the officers. In fact it looks like he was stepping on the other direction. I am trying to see if he started to turn his back to them.

This was already covered.

kysirsoze
08-17-2012, 05:10 PM
I'm not too worried about the 30 shots. As has been said, once lethal force is justified, that's it. I just have to ask, if tazers aren't the answer here, then what the fuck are they for?

vailpass
08-17-2012, 05:11 PM
No. But to continue firing 14 times AFTER the guy has been dropped is justified by what?

Don't know enough to say. Don't know why they couldn't try to taze him first. Just know it is ridiculous to expect an officer to engage an armed man in hand to hand combat when he has other options.

crazycoffey
08-17-2012, 05:13 PM
BTW, do you even realize how many rounds can be fired in 5 seconds? I can empty my 15 round clip in 5 seconds. Now multiply that by 6.


Accuracy count at all, or just closing your eyes and pulling the trigger. I'm an extremely good shot, and have been shooting for over 20 years, I'd say 5 seconds = about 6-8 shots accurately.

Of course if we were both shooting at a knife wielding maniac that number may go up, and accuracy may go down. Even for some as awesome as we are.

petegz28
08-17-2012, 05:13 PM
This was already covered.

And the verdict was?

Donger
08-17-2012, 05:13 PM
It's true, in the breeding process the skin gets extra leathery and combine that with the long hair of the German Shepard, they are extremely knife resistant.

How accurate are tasers on a moving target? I presume the little zapper thingy doesn't move at the same velocity as a bullet?

Donger
08-17-2012, 05:14 PM
And the verdict was?

There were two cops over near the bush, and the dead guy moved toward them with a knife in his hand, and was therefore shot.

petegz28
08-17-2012, 05:14 PM
Accuracy count at all, or just closing your eyes and pulling the trigger. I'm an extremely good shot, and have been shooting for over 20 years, I'd say 5 seconds = about 6-8 shots accurately.

Of course if we were both shooting at a knife wielding maniac that number may go up, and accuracy may go down. Even for some as awesome as we are.

At the range they were at I could empty 15 shots and be fairly confident I am going to hit on almost every one if not every one.

crazycoffey
08-17-2012, 05:16 PM
OK but you don't expect police officers to engage in hand to hand combat with a knife wielding mad man do you?


The cops should have glared at the man and said, "that's not a knife, this is a knife" and then they could have tied their left hand to the man's left hand and had a good old fashion stickin' contest. Real men would have handled it that way....

DJ's left nut
08-17-2012, 05:16 PM
At the range they were at I could empty 15 shots and be fairly confident I am going to hit on almost every one if not every one.

And you're absolutely incorrect.

They have done numerous studies on the effect of stressors on highly trained marksmen (soldiers, officers, etc...) and have found that marksmanship turns to crap pretty quickly once faced with immediate danger.

You see it all the time in shootouts - nobody hits shit. Very few people have the ability to control their adrenaline in that situation well enough to still be an accurate shot under duress.

Chocolate Hog
08-17-2012, 05:18 PM
Fuck the police

Donger
08-17-2012, 05:20 PM
Huh. He was apparently hit "only" 10 times.

vailpass
08-17-2012, 05:21 PM
**** the police

Grow up. Would you like to live in a community with no police force. We could call you Snake Pliskin.

petegz28
08-17-2012, 05:22 PM
Huh. He was apparently hit "only" 10 times.

How many of those 10 were after he was on the ground?

DJ's left nut
08-17-2012, 05:23 PM
Huh. He was apparently hit "only" 10 times.

That's because Pete - AKA Badass Motherfucker - wasn't the triggerman.

Pete would've been 10 shots in the guy all by his lonesome.

vailpass
08-17-2012, 05:23 PM
That's because Pete - AKA Badass Mother****er - wasn't the triggerman.

Pete would've been 10 shots in the guy all by his lonesome.

LMAO

Brock
08-17-2012, 05:23 PM
The bottom line here, is that if this is what passes for policework today, then it's a minimum wage job that any dipshit who can shoot can do.

crazycoffey
08-17-2012, 05:24 PM
How accurate are tasers on a moving target? I presume the little zapper thingy doesn't move at the same velocity as a bullet?

Tasers are like heat seeking missles. Once you lock in the target they work all the time every time. Cops should just stop using guns all together.

I'd be confident with a battery operated, gas propelled, piece of plastic that fires 2 "1/2 inch" needles attached to cheap stereo wires to protect me from any situation, I'd be willing to bet my life or the life of a buddy or even an innocent bystander, on it without ever even so much as holding one in my hand much less shooting it.

Fish
08-17-2012, 05:24 PM
I miss the good old days when the cops just beat you with a night stick...

Donger
08-17-2012, 05:24 PM
How many of those 10 were after he was on the ground?

I don't think that's ever going to be known, but at least it throws some basic math into mix. I wouldn't think that a ~20% hit rate is very good, right, Rambo?

petegz28
08-17-2012, 05:24 PM
That's because Pete - AKA Badass Mother****er - wasn't the triggerman.

Pete would've been 10 shots in the guy all by his lonesome.

Not hard to hit a target when it's laying on the ground.

Donger
08-17-2012, 05:25 PM
Tasers are like heat seeking missles. Once you lock in the target they work all the time every time. Cops should just stop using guns all together.

I'd be confident with a battery operated, gas propelled, piece of plastic that fires 2 "1/2 inch" needles attached to cheap stereo wires to protect me from any situation, I'd be willing to bet my life or the life of a buddy or even an innocent bystander, on it without ever even so much as holding one in my hand much less shooting it.

They are heat-seeking? That's really neat.

Bump
08-17-2012, 05:25 PM
the cops didn't need to kill that man. Thats some fucked up shit. Cops should go to prison, if people who aren't cops killed that man in that exact same scenario, they'd be going to a federal pound me in the ass prison.

petegz28
08-17-2012, 05:25 PM
I don't think that's ever going to be known, but at least it throws some basic math into mix. I wouldn't think that a ~20% hit rate is very good, right, Rambo?

Gee, I wonder where the 80% that didn't hit him went? Stray bullets will hit innocent people regardless of who fired the weapon.

Donger
08-17-2012, 05:26 PM
I'd be confident with a battery operated, gas propelled, piece of plastic that fires 2 "1/2 inch" needles attached to cheap stereo wires to protect me from any situation, I'd be willing to bet my life or the life of a buddy or even an innocent bystander, on it without ever even so much as holding one in my hand much less shooting it.

Well, that's obviously because you are a MURDEREERRERRRR!

vailpass
08-17-2012, 05:27 PM
the cops didn't need to kill that man. Thats some ****ed up shit. Cops should go to prison, if people who aren't cops killed that man in that exact same scenario, they'd be going to a federal pound me in the ass prison.

:spock: ya think? What does that have to do with anything?

Donger
08-17-2012, 05:27 PM
the cops didn't need to kill that man. Thats some ****ed up shit. Cops should go to prison, if people who aren't cops killed that man in that exact same scenario, they'd be going to a federal pound me in the ass prison.

:spock:

Yes. There's a big difference between civilians and police. May I suggest inhaling more deeply?

Donger
08-17-2012, 05:28 PM
Gee, I wonder where the 80% that didn't hit him went? Stray bullets will hit innocent people regardless of who fired the weapon.

Doesn't sound like it in this case, does it?

petegz28
08-17-2012, 05:29 PM
Doesn't sound like it in this case, does it?

Luckily.

DJ's left nut
08-17-2012, 05:29 PM
Not hard to hit a target when it's laying on the ground.

There's not a number that could be given that would appease your angst, so the answer is really irrelevant is it not?

But you're right, I'm sure he went down after the first shot and this was just a bunch of bloodthirsty murderers with badges that put another 9 rounds into him after he hit the ground.

petegz28
08-17-2012, 05:30 PM
There's not a number that could be given that would appease your angst, so the answer is really irrelevant is it not?

But you're right, I'm sure he went down after the first shot and this was just a bunch of bloodthirsty murderers with badges that put another 9 rounds into him after he hit the ground.

Your argument makes little sense. At least 14 shots were fired after he was down. Why?

Donger
08-17-2012, 05:32 PM
Your argument makes little sense. At least 14 shots were fired after he was down. Why?

I would imagine that the adrenaline was pumping at slightly elevated levels, don't you? They're just human cops. Not Robocops.

Or, to channel Eddie Murphy, SuperCops.

Spongeblack Bobtard
08-17-2012, 05:33 PM
Anyone see the footage of the South American cops open up on striking miners last night? It is rough man. Like 18 guys mowed down from 50 feet.

vailpass
08-17-2012, 05:34 PM
Anyone see the footage of the South American cops open up on striking miners last night? It is rough man. Like 18 guys mowed down from 50 feet.

That'll teach 'em to stop digging.

DJ's left nut
08-17-2012, 05:35 PM
Your argument makes little sense. At least 14 shots were fired after he was down. Why?

You're the one accusing these men and women of murder, I'd say the burden is yours to carry.

My theory - adrenaline, pure and simple. Shots were fired and in the span of about 3 seconds they put a bunch of lead in the air. You count 14 shots or so after he fell and that's fine, but we're talking 6 people, right? And a pistol with a fast finger is going to put out a couple rounds in a second.

So in essence, due to the shock of a 'fight or flight' mechanism kicking in a mere 3/4 seconds prior, 6 people pulled their triggers another second or so longer, leading to your 14 rounds. I don't consider that extra second to be 'unreasonable' and worthy of a murderer tag.

Unless you feel that all 6 of these people are just bloodthirsty killers, you have to accept the fact that what they all had in common - being human - is what created the reaction.

Their department failed them. The officers did what training and human nature compelled them to do. But leave it to the standard parties to start counting bullets, as though they'd be appeased had only 25 rounds been fired and he was hit 8 times.

Radar Chief
08-17-2012, 05:36 PM
Your argument makes little sense. At least 14 shots were fired after he was down. Why?

Because when they pulled the trigger for a 15th shot the gun went click?

petegz28
08-17-2012, 05:39 PM
I would imagine that the adrenaline was pumping at slightly elevated levels, don't you? They're just human cops. Not Robocops.

Or, to channel Eddie Murphy, SuperCops.

No excuse. As I have stated and is the law, if that would have been you or me we would be charged withe excessive force plain and simple.

Once this guy was down there was no need for 14 shots to continue to be fired.

crazycoffey
08-17-2012, 05:39 PM
I would imagine that the adrenaline was pumping at slightly elevated levels, don't you? They're just human cops. Not Robocops.

Or, to channel Eddie Murphy, SuperCops.

I am, I smell danger a mile away and lock up child molesters daily.


Actually we did get a child molestation case. One that could have gotten away without a bit of quick thinking on my part, if I may toot my own horn. I guess I can't really tell you why I think that, but I bet the most stringent of cop haters and crazycoffey haters would like the story.

Back to the topic at hand. I can stop bullets in mid air, with my mind and a wave of my hand. I'm awesome. To bad I'm not cop in Michigan or Colorado....

petegz28
08-17-2012, 05:40 PM
You're the one accusing these men and women of murder, I'd say the burden is yours to carry.

My theory - adrenaline, pure and simple. Shots were fired and in the span of about 3 seconds they put a bunch of lead in the air. You count 14 shots or so after he fell and that's fine, but we're talking 6 people, right? And a pistol with a fast finger is going to put out a couple rounds in a second.

So in essence, due to the shock of a 'fight or flight' mechanism kicking in a mere 3/4 seconds prior, 6 people pulled their triggers another second or so longer, leading to your 14 rounds. I don't consider that extra second to be 'unreasonable' and worthy of a murderer tag.

Unless you feel that all 6 of these people are just bloodthirsty killers, you have to accept the fact that what they all had in common - being human - is what created the reaction.

Their department failed them. The officers did what training and human nature compelled them to do. But leave it to the standard parties to start counting bullets, as though they'd be appeased had only 25 rounds been fired and he was hit 8 times.

Training did not compell them to continue shooting a person who was already down. In fact I would lay $'s to Peso's that their training was to do just the opposite.

Donger
08-17-2012, 05:43 PM
No excuse. As I have stated and is the law, if that would have been you or me we would be charged withe excessive force plain and simple.

Once this guy was down there was no need for 14 shots to continue to be fired.

:spock:

You and I aren't cops. I don't even have "a" gun, let alone many, which would necessitate an entire rack.

I'd rather they had not shot the guy. I'd rather he hadn't refused to drop his weapon, which lead to him being shot many times. But, I also acknowledge that the cops are just humans, and in those situations, humans react on adrenaline. That's nature's fault, not theirs.

DJ's left nut
08-17-2012, 05:44 PM
Training did not compell them to continue shooting a person who was already down. In fact I would lay $'s to Peso's that their training was to do just the opposite.

That's why I said training and human nature, sport.

This wasn't a single person - this was 6. Were they all bloodthirsty killers that roam in a pack, Pete?

Or did perhaps the fact that their training says to drop the suspect, combined with the rawest rush of adrenaline that any of them (or us) will ever experience in their life, led to them firing for one extra second beyond when the guy hit.

Nah, because to accept possibility requires one to admit that, but for the grace of God goes you. It's much easier to stand on a pedestal and swear that you'd have never done anything remotely similar and that it's a staggering coincidence that all 6 of these savage killers happened to be in the same place at the same time.

Fuck it - hang 'em all, right Pete?

Bump
08-17-2012, 05:44 PM
:spock:

Yes. There's a big difference between civilians and police. May I suggest inhaling more deeply?

the point is, Donger, it wasn't a life threatening situation for the cops. If citizens were in that SAME EXACT situation, they would get charged if they shot them. You're not supposed to shoot people unless it's a LIFE THREATENING situation whether you are a cop or a regular dude.

You're pretty dense.

Lzen
08-17-2012, 05:45 PM
absolutely no reason to shoot a guy 30+ times after he dropped like a stone after the 1st shot. None.

I didn't see the guy make any significant move towards anyone.

a single shot the the leg would of be enough, if not a single shot to the kneecap.

The fact that they ALL shot in unison should be enough to prove intent and get them fired.

complete bullshit

I don't think it's as easy as the movies make it seem to just shoot someone in the leg to make them go down. But yeah, 30-46 shots seems way overboard. WTF? Police in this country are getting out of control. That being said, the dumb ass should have put down the knife. WTF did he think was going to happen?

petegz28
08-17-2012, 05:46 PM
:spock:

You and I aren't cops. I don't even have "a" gun, let alone many, which would necessitate an entire rack.

I'd rather they had not shot the guy. I'd rather he hadn't refused to drop his weapon, which lead to him being shot many times. But, I also acknowledge that the cops are just humans, and in those situations, humans react on adrenaline. That's nature's fault, not theirs.

Loo, it's not that they shot him or how many times they shot him until he dropped. It's how many times they continued to shoot after he dropped.

When I worked in a liquor store and was robbed do you think my adrenaline wasn't flowing? Do you think my human nature wasn't to unload on the fucker once he turned his back? If I had given in I would be in jail because the fucker no longer presented a threat.

The only reason the continued firing could be justified is if the man had a firearm and not a knife.

Lzen
08-17-2012, 05:47 PM
Deadly force is deadly force. If someone decides to use it, there is no "amount" of deadly force that is justified. It's either justified or it isn't. One shot or a hundred are the same.

My question is just, why didn't they tase him instead. Tasers are for this situation, where it's too dangerous to subdue some violent nut job without using deadly force.

Yep. Seems like cops use tazers when it's unnecessary and not when it seems like the proper choice.

petegz28
08-17-2012, 05:47 PM
I don't think it's as easy as the movies make it seem to just shoot someone in the leg to make them go down. But yeah, 30-46 shots seems way overboard. WTF? Police in this country are getting out of control. That being said, the dumb ass should have put down the knife. WTF did he think was going to happen?

He had mental issues.

crazycoffey
08-17-2012, 05:47 PM
the point is, Donger, it wasn't a life threatening situation for the cops. If citizens were in that SAME EXACT situation, they would get charged if they shot them. You're not supposed to shoot people unless it's a LIFE THREATENING situation whether you are a cop or a regular dude.

You're pretty dense.



http://www.kapapacademy.com/Sknife.html

Sign up, learn something....

DJ's left nut
08-17-2012, 05:47 PM
It's better that I missed Laz's post the first time.

Christ, he's an idiot.

If anything the fact that they ALL shot in unison proves a complete lack of intent and instead a simple gut reaction.

But yeah - we're honest to God back to "They should've shot a moving target with a knife in the kneecap" again.

People are really stupid.

vailpass
08-17-2012, 05:48 PM
:spock:

You and I aren't cops. I don't even have "a" gun, let alone many, which would necessitate an entire rack.

I'd rather they had not shot the guy. I'd rather he hadn't refused to drop his weapon, which lead to him being shot many times. But, I also acknowledge that the cops are just humans, and in those situations, humans react on adrenaline. That's nature's fault, not theirs.

:D Party on Wayne.

Donger
08-17-2012, 05:48 PM
the point is, Donger, it wasn't a life threatening situation for the cops.

Considering the dead guy:

1) Was carrying a deadly weapon.

2) Refused to put said weapon down when LAWFULLY ordered to do so by the cops.

3) Moved toward said officers with said deadly weapon.

yeah, I'd say it was a live-threatening situation for the cops.

crazycoffey
08-17-2012, 05:50 PM
Considering the dead guy:

1) Was carrying a deadly weapon.

2) Refused to put said weapon down when LAWFULLY ordered to do so by the cops.

3) Moved toward said officers with said deadly weapon.

yeah, I'd say it was a life-threatening situation for the cops.

fixed, sorry. Go on.....

petegz28
08-17-2012, 05:50 PM
Considering the dead guy:

1) Was carrying a deadly weapon.

2) Refused to put said weapon down when LAWFULLY ordered to do so by the cops.

3) Moved toward said officers with said deadly weapon.

yeah, I'd say it was a live-threatening situation for the cops.

Fine, agreed on all counts. So you shoot until he drops and that's it. THAT IS IT! The guy may very well have died from that alone but when you have 6 cops who continue to shoot after the man is on the ground you aren't going to win any arguments based on your adrenaline and what not.

Lzen
08-17-2012, 05:50 PM
:spock:

....the cops are just humans, and in those situations, humans react on adrenaline. That's nature's fault, not theirs.


That's some BS reasoning right there. They are supposed to be professionals trained to deal with these situations. They are supposed to protect and serve. They are given that power to be trusted, not to act like a bunch of thugs. Deadly force is supposed to be a last resort. I don't believe they were at that point.

Donger
08-17-2012, 05:52 PM
you aren't going to win any arguments based on your adrenaline and what not.

Sure I will. They are human, and they were forced into a split second decision by the actions of the man with the knife.

DJ's left nut
08-17-2012, 05:53 PM
Fine, agreed on all counts. So you shoot until he drops and that's it. THAT IS IT! The guy may very well have died from that alone but when you have 6 cops who continue to shoot after the man is on the ground you aren't going to win any arguments based on your adrenaline and what not.

And you're not going to win any arguments based on the idea that all 6 of them were bloodthirsty killers that just got their rocks off by shooting a man while he was down.

What's your alternative, Pete? I've got adrenaline, you've got...well shit, I have no idea.

If my adrenaline argument doesn't explain 1 extra second of firing that came 3 seconds after the first shot, what argument do you have that does?

You're the one arguing murder, chief. Let's hear your mens rea...

crazycoffey
08-17-2012, 05:53 PM
That's some BS reasoning right there. They are supposed to be professionals trained to deal with these situations. They are supposed to protect and serve. They are given that power to be trusted, not to act like a bunch of thugs. Deadly force is supposed to be a last resort. I don't believe they were at that point.


Curious. What is your definition of "Deadly Force"?

DJ's left nut
08-17-2012, 05:53 PM
Sure I will. They are human, and they were forced into a split second decision by the actions of the man with the knife.

Nope.

6 homicidal maniacs that just happened upon the same crazy person.

Pete has us by the short and curlies here...

Donger
08-17-2012, 05:53 PM
That's some BS reasoning right there. They are supposed to be professionals trained to deal with these situations. They are supposed to protect and serve. They are given that power to be trusted, not to act like a bunch of thugs. Deadly force is supposed to be a last resort. I don't believe they were at that point.

So, you think they aren't human?

They gave this man plenty of time and options to obey their lawful order. He chose badly.

petegz28
08-17-2012, 05:56 PM
SAGINAW, MI — As part of a segment that aired on CNN’s “Anderson Cooper 360,” one former police officer offered his analysis of video footage that showed six Saginaw police officers on July 1 shoot and kill Milton S. Hall, a man who reportedly acted aggressively with a knife.

The video went public on a national stage Thursday after CNN purchased the footage from an amateur videographer.

Soledad O’Brien, who was filling in for an absent Cooper, in one segment interviewed former policeman Lou Palumbo, director of Elite Group Limited, a private firm that handles security for events such as the Golden Globes.

Palumbo appears both critical and defensive of what the video shows. O’Brien describes the video as showing police at “a reasonable distance” from Hall.

“This is a perceptive nightmare for law enforcement agency and, tragically enough, could clearly be a lapse in training,” Palumbo says at one point. “It’s a very good question why it would require 46 shots from a group of law enforcement agents to neutralize one individual armed with a knife. This wasn’t a scenario where (Hall was) discharging a weapon in their direction.”

Palumbo later appears to try to explain the perspective of the officers and the danger they faced.

“There’s a couple of separate issues here,” he says. “One is if the shooting is justifiable, and they may find out that the shooting is justifiable.

“The second issue is the amount of rounds fired at him. One of the things the public has to understand is that an individual wielding a knife at you at about 20 feet can be on top of you in a split second. The public doesn’t know this because they don’t do this for a living.”

Palumbo, though, remained critical of the officers.

“The other issue is the number of rounds that were fired,” he says. “There’s probably a little bit of a training issue here.”

http://www.mlive.com/news/saginaw/index.ssf/2012/08/national_police_expert_analyze.html

vailpass
08-17-2012, 05:56 PM
So, you think they aren't human?

They gave this man plenty of time and options to obey their lawful order. He chose badly.

Crazycoffey isn't.

petegz28
08-17-2012, 05:57 PM
Sure I will. They are human, and they were forced into a split second decision by the actions of the man with the knife.

No Sir, not going to fly when trying to justify why a trained officer continued to fire their weapon on a suspect who was clearly incapacitated.

petegz28
08-17-2012, 05:58 PM
Donger, again it's not the fact they shot him. It's the fact they continued to shoot a man with a knife who was already down. There was absolutely no justification whatsoever to continue shooting a person who is already down and is not in posession of a firearm. He is no threat at that point.

Donger
08-17-2012, 05:59 PM
No Sir, not going to fly when trying to justify why a trained officer continued to fire their weapon on a suspect who was clearly incapacitated.

So, what's your explanation, Pete? Why'd they keep shooting?

DJ's left nut
08-17-2012, 06:00 PM
I think some folks see police training as the equivalent of army training.

Army training is an extensive process of breaking you psychologically to the point that you can be re-built into a machine and weapon of war that simply reacts to stress rather than spends that extra second of thinking about it...and dying.

That is not police training because police are asked to serve a far wider array of roles. They aren't designed to be used primarily in warfare and killing zones. Their training leaves a significant amount of the human element in them and it's that human element that led to this.

I'm confident that if this was 6 Army Rangers, it would've been 6 shots and a dead man. But police officers serve a dual role and as part of that their 'humanity' is left intact and as a critical component to their training.

Sometimes it gets in the way, but more often it does them (and the community) a great deal of good.

Sure they're trained, but they're still human and still subject to human frailty. More often than not that is a good thing.

Donger
08-17-2012, 06:01 PM
Crazycoffey isn't.

Yeah, I want that fucker out in Denver. I might even hire him to patrol my neighborhood. RoboCoffey. SuperCoffey. Especially on trash day.

DJ's left nut
08-17-2012, 06:02 PM
So, what's your explanation, Pete? Why'd they keep shooting?

He's not going to answer this question. He's just going to keep calling 6 people of varying backgrounds, genders, etc... murderers.

Just really bad luck for that poor schlub.

vailpass
08-17-2012, 06:02 PM
Yeah, I want that ****er out in Denver. I might even hire him to patrol my neighborhood. RoboCoffey. SuperCoffey. Especially on trash day.

LMAO Why trash day?

petegz28
08-17-2012, 06:03 PM
So, what's your explanation, Pete? Why'd they keep shooting?

Because they were fucking stupid, that's why. They ignored their training. I will lay money on it and experts have already come out to say such. I bet you could search every state's law on excessive force and not find one bit that would justify 6 cops continuing to shoot a suspect that was already down and not posing a threat.

Donger
08-17-2012, 06:05 PM
LMAO Why trash day?

That's when we open the gates and all the "other people" invade along with the trash trucks. They try to get ahead of the trash trucks to get "dibs" on the trash that we put out. For example, one of the wife's cats pissed on my fucking loveseat recently and ruined it. So, it's going on the curb on Sunday evening. It will be gone before the trash guys get here on Monday AM.

Donger
08-17-2012, 06:07 PM
Because they were ****ing stupid, that's why. They ignored their training. I will lay money on it and experts have already come out to say such. I bet you could search every state's law on excessive force and not find one bit that would justify 6 cops continuing to shoot a suspect that was already down and not posing a threat.

That's possible, or it's more possible that their reaction was a result of adrenaline or some combination of the two. The FACT that only 20% of the shots hit target tells me that the adrenaline was flowing rather heavily. Disagree?

Are you backing off your "murderer" accusation now, by the way?

crazycoffey
08-17-2012, 06:08 PM
He's not going to answer this question. He's just going to keep calling 6 people of varying backgrounds, genders, etc... murderers.

Just really bad luck for that poor schlub.

Just to entertain some of the comments in this thread, what's your thoughts on 6 civilians with clean records, and concealed carry permits, are at this strip mall when a nutjob pulls a knife and runs toward an innocent bystander. Said CCW holders all pull and shoot the nutjob in a span of 6 seconds and 46 rounds. No stray bullets hitting other innocents, but each person shoots 6 or 7 rounds.

Personally, I'm on board with city commendations for the civilians, but what do you think from your experience and back ground?

petegz28
08-17-2012, 06:09 PM
That's possible, or it's more possible that their reaction was a result of adrenaline or some combination of the two. The FACT that only 20% of the shots hit target tells me that the adrenaline was flowing rather heavily. Disagree?

That's the entire point of their training, Donger. It doesn't matter how many shots hit him. What matters is they kept firing after he was down. That's where they fucked up. Adrenaline is not going to be a valid excuse. It wouldn't be for you and it won't be for them.

DJ's left nut
08-17-2012, 06:10 PM
So just so I'm clear - 6 trained marksmen that were so calm and collected that they managed to hit someone approximately 20 feet away at about a 20% clip made a conscious, rationale decision to disregard their training and continue shooting when the guy hit the ground? And that it was a lack of intelligence that led to this decision?

Not fear. Not adrenaline. They were just stupid and happened to have a collective bad aim day.

That makes far more sense than the possibility that thousands of years of human evolution created a fight or flight mechanism that these folks couldn't shake off in the span of 4 seconds.

I have seen the light...

petegz28
08-17-2012, 06:10 PM
Just to entertain some of the comments in this thread, what's your thoughts on 6 civilians with clean records, and concealed carry permits, are at this strip mall when a nutjob pulls a knife and runs toward an innocent bystander. Said CCW holders all pull and shoot the nutjob in a span of 6 seconds and 46 rounds. No stray bullets hitting other innocents, but each person shoots 6 or 7 rounds.

Personally, I'm on board with city commendations for the civilians, but what do you think from your experience and back ground?

That's a bunk argument. The question is what are your thoughts if those 6 kept shooting the guy after he was down?

I'll tell you what a court would say but let's hear your thoughts.

Donger
08-17-2012, 06:10 PM
Just to entertain some of the comments in this thread, what's your thoughts on 6 civilians with clean records, and concealed carry permits, are at this strip mall when a nutjob pulls a knife and runs toward an innocent bystander. Said CCW holders all pull and shoot the nutjob in a span of 6 seconds and 46 rounds. No stray bullets hitting other innocents, but each person shoots 6 or 7 rounds.

Personally, I'm on board with city commendations for the civilians, but what do you think from your experience and back ground?
.
Nice shootin', Tex!

crazycoffey
08-17-2012, 06:11 PM
Because they were fucking stupid, that's why. They ignored their training. I will lay money on it and experts have already come out to say such. I bet you could search every state's law on excessive force and not find one bit that would justify 6 cops continuing to shoot a suspect that was already down and not posing a threat.

inappropriate, yes. Murder, no. You were arguing for murder. And FYI, inappropriate still may mean action against the officers, but it also may not. I'll wager if any action is brought on the officers it's not going to be a murder charge.

petegz28
08-17-2012, 06:12 PM
So just so I'm clear - 6 trained marksmen that were so calm and collected that they managed to hit someone approximately 20 feet away at about a 20% clip made a conscious, rationale decision to disregard their training and continue shooting when the guy hit the ground? And that it was a lack of intelligence that led to this decision?

Not fear. Not adrenaline. They were just stupid and happened to have a collective bad aim day.

That makes far more sense than the possibility that thousands of years of human evolution created a fight or flight mechanism that these folks couldn't shake off in the span of 4 seconds.

I have seen the light...

You don't seem to get it or understand the law. What sucks for the cops is this is on video. The man was clearly down and they continued to shoot excessively. Adrenline is not a legal justification to continue shooting someone who is no longer posing a threat.

Donger
08-17-2012, 06:12 PM
That's the entire point of their training, Donger. It doesn't matter how many shots hit him. What matters is they kept firing after he was down. That's where they ****ed up. Adrenaline is not going to be a valid excuse. It wouldn't be for you and it won't be for them.

I'm not sure that is part of their training. Evidence of that? Such as, "You may shoot naughty person when he threatens, but make sure you stop shooting the second he hits the ground, umkay?"

stevieray
08-17-2012, 06:12 PM
the guy brought a knife to the gun fight. two cops max should have had guns drawn for shoulder or lower leg shots to immobilze the perp...six people fring multiple times resembles mob mentality...I think that a part of that comes from current culture..we're just more harsh and more prone to overeeact.

petegz28
08-17-2012, 06:13 PM
inappropriate, yes. Murder, no. You were arguing for murder. And FYI, inappropriate still may mean action against the officers, but it also may not. I'll wager if any action is brought on the officers it's not going to be a murder charge.

Perhaps murder was a bad word to use. But when you continue to shoot someone who is no longer posing a threat you have crossed a legal line.

DJ's left nut
08-17-2012, 06:13 PM
Just to entertain some of the comments in this thread, what's your thoughts on 6 civilians with clean records, and concealed carry permits, are at this strip mall when a nutjob pulls a knife and runs toward an innocent bystander. Said CCW holders all pull and shoot the nutjob in a span of 6 seconds and 46 rounds. No stray bullets hitting other innocents, but each person shoots 6 or 7 rounds.

Personally, I'm on board with city commendations for the civilians, but what do you think from your experience and back ground?

Oh, I wouldn't go giving out commendations. I completely endorse conceal and carry laws, but I don't want to actively encourage people to be drawing their guns in public. You start giving out medals, that's going to increase the odds of something going very wrong the next time.

I most assuredly wouldn't be prosecuting or anything, though. They did what had to be done in an immediate emergency situation and did so within a timeline that is ultimately reasonable.

Donger
08-17-2012, 06:14 PM
Perhaps murder was a bad word to use.

Thank you.

But when you continue to shoot someone who is no longer posing a threat you have crossed a legal line.

What legal line?

petegz28
08-17-2012, 06:15 PM
I'm not sure that is part of their training. Evidence of that? Such as, "You may shoot naughty person when he threatens, but make sure you stop shooting the second he hits the ground, umkay?"

That's exactly the law, Donger. If a person sticks a gun in your face and robs you the second he turns his back to you he is protected legaly from you shooting him because he no longer poses a threat. Now with Cops it is slightly different in that situation but for both civilian and police to continue firing upon a person who is down and posing no threat to you or others is illegal.

petegz28
08-17-2012, 06:15 PM
Thank you.



What legal line?

JFC, EXCESSIVE FORCE! Google is your friend. It's in all the law books.

Donger
08-17-2012, 06:15 PM
That's exactly the law, Donger. If a person sticks a gun in your face and robs you the second he turns his back to you he is protected legaly from you shooting him because he no longer poses a threat. Now with Cops it is slightly different in that situation but for both civilian and police to continue firing upon a person who is down and posing no threat to you or others is illegal.

Again, what law?

Donger
08-17-2012, 06:17 PM
JFC, EXCESSIVE FORCE! Google is your friend. It's in all the law books.

Just making sure, Pete. Now, how did these officers legally violate excessive force? Not your opinion, legally.

crazycoffey
08-17-2012, 06:17 PM
Oh, I wouldn't go giving out commendations. I completely endorse conceal and carry laws, but I don't want to actively encourage people to be drawing their guns in public. You start giving out medals, that's going to increase the odds of something going very wrong the next time.

I most assuredly wouldn't be prosecuting or anything, though. They did what had to be done in an immediate emergency situation and did so within a timeline that is ultimately reasonable.


I was just curious. I saw a few posted opinions saying the opposite from ours.

DJ's left nut
08-17-2012, 06:18 PM
You don't seem to get it or understand the law. What sucks for the cops is this is on video. The man was clearly down and they continued to shoot excessively. Adrenline is not a legal justification to continue shooting someone who is no longer posing a threat.

Uh...yeah, I both get and understand the law. It's sorta my job and 4 states have decided that I understand it well enough to let me practice it. I'm absolutely certain that one of us here has a better handle on the law than the other, and it ain't you.

Adrenaline can absolutely negate the mens rea that would be required for murder. It can also allow the conduct of someone to pass as reasonable given the circumstances in a manslaughter case.

You're just really very wrong here. I'll let you go ahead and retract your sterling legal analysis if you'd like and carry on with your pitchforks.

Donger
08-17-2012, 06:20 PM
Uh...yeah, I both get and understand the law. It's sorta my job and 4 states have decided that I understand it well enough to let me practice it. I'm absolutely certain that one of us here has a better handle on the law than the other, and it ain't you.

Adrenaline can absolutely negate the mens rea that would be required for murder. It can also allow the conduct of someone to pass as reasonable given the circumstances in a manslaughter case.

You're just really very wrong here. I'll let you go ahead and retract your sterling legal analysis if you'd like and carry on with your pitchforks.

Sorry, can't help it:

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/gShIlz2If40" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

petegz28
08-17-2012, 06:22 PM
Put it in context of what will probably take place in court..

Defense Attorney: Officer why did you discharge your firearm?

Officer: The suspect posessed a knife and made a move towards another officer I thought the need to incapacitate the suspect by all means was the appropriate action.

Defense Attorney: Officer, given your training would you consider a suspect whois not in possesion of a firearm and who has been shot multiple time and is laying on the ground a threat to you or others?

Officer: No, at that point the suspect would no longer be an immediate threat.

Defense Attorney: Officer, why did you continue to discharge your firearm multiple times after the suspect was clearly incapacitated?

Officer: It was the adrenaline

Defense Attorney: Isn't it part of your training to only discharge your weapon when there is an immediate threat to you or others?

Officer: Yes, that is correct

Defense Attorney: Officer, again, why did you continue to discharge your firearm multiple times after the suspect was clearly incapacited

Officer: Adrenaline

Defense Attorney: The Defense rests your Honor.

crazycoffey
08-17-2012, 06:23 PM
:facepalm:

Setsuna
08-17-2012, 06:23 PM
Wow just saw it. You can't shoot a warning shot first?

petegz28
08-17-2012, 06:24 PM
Just making sure, Pete. Now, how did these officers legally violate excessive force? Not your opinion, legally.

Because the suspect had been incapacitated and no longer posed any threat to them or anyone else yet they continued to fire their weapons regardless. Why they did it is rather irrelevant when it comes down to it. They did it and that's that. There was no reason for them to continue shooting the man after they dropped him and the excuse of "my adrenaline was flowing" most likely isn't going to fly.

DJ's left nut
08-17-2012, 06:30 PM
Put it in context of what will probably take place in court..

Defense Attorney: Officer why did you discharge your firearm?

Officer: The suspect posessed a knife and made a move towards another officer I thought the need to incapacitate the suspect by all means was the appropriate action.

Defense Attorney: Officer, given your training would you consider a suspect whois not in possesion of a firearm and who has been shot multiple time and is laying on the ground a threat to you or others?

Officer: No, at that point the suspect would no longer be an immediate threat.

Defense Attorney: Officer, why did you continue to discharge your firearm multiple times after the suspect was clearly incapacitated?

Officer: It was the adrenaline

Defense Attorney: Isn't it part of your training to only discharge your weapon when there is an immediate threat to you or others?

Officer: Yes, that is correct

Defense Attorney: Officer, again, why did you continue to discharge your firearm multiple times after the suspect was clearly incapacited

Officer: Adrenaline

Defense Attorney: The Defense rests your Honor.

I....uh....assume you mean prosecuting attorney? If the officer's defense attorney is asking him those questions, he's doing a pretty poor job.

But again, you're pretty good at this law thing.

Let me tell you how that actually goes. How it actually goes is that the officers probably don't take the stand at all - because why would you allow them as their defense counsel? There's nothing gained by it.

Then what happens is that the prosecutors have really nothing to go by other than the video - so they play it. And for 10 minutes the jury is pretty shocked by it.

Defense counsel then puts up an expert that has years of training in the effects of adrenaline on officers and the physiological impact on life/death stressors on the human body. You probably go ahead an introduce service records (though the prosecutors may object to relevance or improper bolstering, but they'll probably get in).

And all that is assuming that the prosecutors survived the Mx for directed verdict. Afterall, in order to have excessive force you'd have to establish that any of those shots actually impacted and that but/for those shots, the man would've survived.

But yeah - you're really good at this lawyerin' thing.

These folks aren't going to jail.

Strongside
08-17-2012, 06:30 PM
I don't know if it's because everything that happens is recorded and put online for the world to so we're just more aware, or if police brutality is on a steep increase but it's disturbing. I got into a fight this St. Patricks Day in Westport at McCoy's...It was a combination of alcohol and some frat guy basically dumping a beer down my fiancee's back...anyhow, I was heated and confronted the guy. He hit me, so I tackled him and proceeded to return the favor a few times. The bouncers grabbed me up and escorted me out, where I was met by two police officers. I was still angry, but I was in no way posing a threat to anyone. One of the cops asked me what the problem was and put his hand on me and told me to calm down. I turned toward him to tell them what happened and stuck my hands in my pockets...the cop instantly drew his gun on me and yelled for me to 'get my ****ing hand out of my pocket.' I was obviously taken aback by this...I've never been arrested or even been given a speeding ticket. After I did, the cop put his gun back in his holster and we talked. After what I've seen on the internet from police, it was insane that he could have shot me in the face for 'posing a threat to him' and gotten away with it, even though I wasn't being hostile at all. There's a problem with law enforcement in this country...that's my 2 cents, anyway.

petegz28
08-17-2012, 06:31 PM
I....uh....assume you mean prosecuting attorney? If the officer's defense attorney is asking him those questions, he's doing a pretty poor job.

But again, you're pretty good at this law thing.

Let me tell you how that actually goes. How it actually goes is that the officers probably don't take the stand at all - because why would you allow them as their defense counsel? There's nothing gained by it.

Then what happens is that the prosecutors have really nothing to go by other than the video - so they play it. And for 10 minutes the jury is pretty shocked by it.

Defense counsel then puts up an expert that has years of training in the effects of adrenaline on officers and the physiological impact on life/death stressors on the human body. You probably go ahead an introduce service records (though the prosecutors may object to relevance or improper bolstering, but they'll probably get in).

And all that is assuming that the prosecutors survived the Mx for directed verdict. Afterall, in order to have excessive force you'd have to establish that any of those shots actually impacted and that but/for those shots, the man would've survived.

But yeah - you're really good at this lawyerin' thing.

These folks aren't going to jail.

God damn dude it was jut to prove a point about the adrenaline defense , don't be so literal

petegz28
08-17-2012, 06:33 PM
I don't know if it's because everything that happens is recorded and put online for the world to so we're just more aware, or if police brutality is on a steep increase but it's disturbing. I got into a fight this St. Patricks Day in Westport at McCoy's...It was a combination of alcohol and some frat guy basically dumping a beer down my fiancee's back...anyhow, I was heated and confronted the guy. He hit me, so I tackled him and proceeded to return the favor a few times. The bouncers grabbed me up and escorted me out, where I was met by two police officers. I was still angry, but I was in no way posing a threat to anyone. One of the cops asked me what the problem was and put his hand on me and told me to calm down. I turned toward him to tell them what happened and stuck my hands in my pockets...the cop instantly drew his gun on me and yelled for me to 'get my ****ing hand out of my pocket.' I was obviously taken aback by this...I've never been arrested or even been given a speeding ticket. After I did, the cop put his gun back in his holster and we talked. After what I've seen on the internet from police, it was insane that he could have shot me in the face for 'posing a threat to him' and gotten away with it, even though I wasn't being hostile at all. There's a problem with law enforcement in this country...that's my 2 cents, anyway.

Rule #1 when dealing with cops: Always keep your hands where they can see them.

Having said that I am rather surprised he cussed at you. Generally speaking they are really not supposed to do that.