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DJ's left nut
08-22-2012, 11:49 AM
http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/8287610/packaged-plays-rethinking-concept-modern-play-calling

I'm sure we'll get some TL;DR out of this, but a football fan should really find it fascinating. It focuses on how variable offenses have become and does so largely through the lens of the Oklahoma State's dominant offense last year.

As a Mizzou fan, I remember the Chase Daniel offenses being the real forerunners of this concept. Daniel was given complete autonomy to just do whatever the hell he wanted back there based almost exclusively on how the defense set up.

(old article on it: http://www.cornnation.com/2008/10/2/627075/the-spread-offense-theory )

Highly recommend the read; it's probably too long to just post.

DJ's left nut
08-22-2012, 11:54 AM
The key takeaway from the article is, IMO, that an offense simply cannot be run from upstairs anymore.

A guy with Cassel's physical skills may well be able to be a franchise QB these days - but he has to be whip smart and a lightening fast decision-maker. He has to have the utmost confidence in his reads and has to be able to know where all his guys are at all times.

If this team is going to do anything, it probably has to give the reigns to ol' Matty Light and hope that he's up for it. We can't continue to handcuff him and assume that we'll just come up with a scheme that's going to be good enough to get the job done.

Ace Gunner
08-22-2012, 12:00 PM
Ya, I agree the QB has to have command on play selection because defenses disguise formation all the time now, so having a QB that can call the right play selection pre snap is much more important to offense now. I'm pretty sure Chiefs fans are going to get a full up clinic on this during at least 2 games this year. 1 of them will be in Denver.

didn't read yet, but thx for posting.

Chiefshrink
08-22-2012, 12:05 PM
Great site ! thx DJ !!:clap:

milkman
08-22-2012, 12:10 PM
Just started it, but they've completely redefined what the spread is.

Spread offenses have been around for far longer than just the last 22-23 years, and it was an offense initially designed in the 60s to spread the defense out to create wider gaps in the defense to run the ball through.

As the passing game has evolved, the spread evolved with it.

DJ's left nut
08-22-2012, 12:14 PM
Just started it, but they've completely redefined what the spread is.

Spread offenses have been around for far longer than just the last 22-23 years, and it was an offense initially designed in the 60s to spread the defense out to create wider gaps in the defense to run the ball through.

As the passing game has evolved, the spread evolved with it.

That's why it reminded me of that old cornnation blog post (mostly part 2).

The Mizzou offense was considered the first 'next step' in the evolution of the spread 5 years ago. This article was essentially written in glowing terms about Chase Daniel when he was at the peak of his powers. Now OSU has taken it a step further and the NFL is adopting it.

The 'spread' offense in a conventional sense is dead or dying. However, an 'up' formation (such as you would have in defenses where there are fewer down lineman allowing for more shifting) has clearly replaced it. Taking guys off the line or out of set formations in the backfield and putting them out in the play where they have far more versatility has become the new spread.

It's no longer the Run and Shoot of the old days; it's just become a demon package that defenses are reacting to on the fly.

buddha
08-22-2012, 01:45 PM
DJ...great finds. Thanks for sharing those. I could read that stuff all day.

I agree with you that the conventional spread is dying out. However, that stuff that Okie Lite is running is freaking scary. Weeden had at least four options on the play shown, and really more than that if you add in the Blackmon option routes. When the defense has to honor all of this at the same time, it's highly likely that something is going to breakdown on any given play.

mdchiefsfan
08-22-2012, 01:54 PM
Mind blown! Thanks

MagicHef
08-22-2012, 03:33 PM
I understand that Oklahoma is doing something new, but I'm not sure I follow the GB example. Rodgers read that Briggs was covering Finley, so he threw to the open man, Grant. How is that so new? Isn't the entire idea of passing predicated on reading how defenders react to routes?

Tebow was doing similar stuff with the run game last season, too. I don't expect that to take the league by storm.

DJ's left nut
08-22-2012, 04:39 PM
I understand that Oklahoma is doing something new, but I'm not sure I follow the GB example. Rodgers read that Briggs was covering Finley, so he threw to the open man, Grant. How is that so new? Isn't the entire idea of passing predicated on reading how defenders react to routes?

Tebow was doing similar stuff with the run game last season, too. I don't expect that to take the league by storm.

I would say a screen pass as an 'outlet' is a fairly novel concept. Ordinarily you'd run your short routes as primary options with your RB leaking out as a last-ditch dump off if the short routes don't work.

Here it appears to have been blocked as a screen, but really intended as a short pass with a screen as a fall-back.

I agree that it's nowhere near as fascinating as the Oklahoma State example, but there are definitely some wrinkles in there that are interesting to read about.

I can only take "Cassel sucks" and "Bowe's back, bitches!" for so long. At some point I wouldn't mind some actual substantive football discussion.

MagicHef
08-22-2012, 05:23 PM
I would say a screen pass as an 'outlet' is a fairly novel concept. Ordinarily you'd run your short routes as primary options with your RB leaking out as a last-ditch dump off if the short routes don't work.

Here it appears to have been blocked as a screen, but really intended as a short pass with a screen as a fall-back.

I agree that it's nowhere near as fascinating as the Oklahoma State example, but there are definitely some wrinkles in there that are interesting to read about.

I can only take "Cassel sucks" and "Bowe's back, bitches!" for so long. At some point I wouldn't mind some actual substantive football discussion.

I wonder how teams will eventually counter Oklahoma's offense. Jamming every receiver? Less pass rush to be able to read offensive cues? More pass rush to try to disrupt the offense?

I do think the value of the OL and pass rushers in general goes down with every offensive innovation like this, though. The top offenses don't have their QBs standing back there for any length of time at all.

DJ's left nut
08-23-2012, 10:13 AM
I wonder how teams will eventually counter Oklahoma's offense. Jamming every receiver? Less pass rush to be able to read offensive cues? More pass rush to try to disrupt the offense?

I do think the value of the OL and pass rushers in general goes down with every offensive innovation like this, though. The top offenses don't have their QBs standing back there for any length of time at all.

They're already trying with disguised blitzes, stunts, etc... And as more tape gets out there, you'd have to think that D-Coordinators will start to pick up on who the 'trigger man' in the defense is and start doing more things to change that up. If the defense knows that Rodgers is going to key on the LOLB from a certain set, then they can start to decoy with the LOLB on occasion to throw him off. It's what Belichick did with Manning when he was up in his dome.

Ultimately I also wonder if we won't see more wide-9 sets with standup ends or even more 2-4-5 packages where you have 2 down lineman and 2 standup backers that switch off based on a read of their own. Ultimately it would just come down to going faster and more varied than the QB can read/react.

And as you get more 2-4-5 sets, you'd have more power running games and the cycle continues...

I really do hope the NFL rules committee does something to give some hope back to defenses. We're starting to shade a little more towards that arcade football that Herm warned us all about.

Ace Gunner
08-23-2012, 10:46 AM
They're already trying with disguised blitzes, stunts, etc... And as more tape gets out there, you'd have to think that D-Coordinators will start to pick up on who the 'trigger man' in the defense is and start doing more things to change that up. If the defense knows that Rodgers is going to key on the LOLB from a certain set, then they can start to decoy with the LOLB on occasion to throw him off. It's what Belichick did with Manning when he was up in his dome.

Ultimately I also wonder if we won't see more wide-9 sets with standup ends or even more 2-4-5 packages where you have 2 down lineman and 2 standup backers that switch off based on a read of their own. Ultimately it would just come down to going faster and more varied than the QB can read/react.

And as you get more 2-4-5 sets, you'd have more power running games and the cycle continues...

I really do hope the NFL rules committee does something to give some hope back to defenses. We're starting to shade a little more towards that arcade football that Herm warned us all about.

yep and I already miss the big hits between safeties & RB's.

JohnnyV13
08-23-2012, 02:52 PM
Green Bay's play is different because of play design. Typically, you didn't pair screens with downfield passes, because offenses wanted to use different blocking techniques with these different play types.

Used to be the first read you'd make is "run or pass" block.

Now, they're pairing runs and passes with similar blocking schemes to give qB's more options.

I think we're going to see more defenses using hybrid defenders to mess up the Key player reads. Basically, you get guys like Justin Houston who can both rush the passer and get back in coverage. You line him up in one of those two true DL sets with his hand down on the edge, and have him cover an unexpected area.

That article makes me wish I had coachesr film of KC's game against GB to see what Crennel did against Rodgers. I wonder if KC's defensive improvements late last season could have been Crennel figuring out how to handle these kind of options.

Remember how we used to hate Greg Robison's "spinner" package with 2 DL? Crennel employed that a lot late last season, but it was actually more effective. He also attacked the passer much more agressively late in the season.

Part of that might have been Justin Houston's emergence. Remember how at the beginning of the year we were all wondering why houton only played in pass coverage instead going with his strengths as a pass rusher? I think the idea was to get houston to focus on the coverage aspects of his game.

With defenses increasingly geared to stop the pass with hybrid defenders, the Chiefs might be perfectly aligned to exploit those adjustments with a smash-mouth run game.Teams might be so concerned to stop the Drew Brees/Aaron Rodgers of the world they don't field enough big uglies to stand up to power running attacks in the last 20 minutes of games.

milkman
08-23-2012, 03:06 PM
Green Bay's play is different because of play design. Typically, you didn't pair screens with downfield passes, because offenses wanted to use different blocking techniques with these different play types.

Used to be the first read you'd make is "run or pass" block.

Now, they're pairing runs and passes with similar blocking schemes to give qB's more options.

I think we're going to see more defenses using hybrid defenders to mess up the Key player reads. Basically, you get guys like Justin Houston who can both rush the passer and get back in coverage. You line him up in one of those two true DL sets with his hand down on the edge, and have him cover an unexpected area.

That article makes me wish I had coachesr film of KC's game against GB to see what Crennel did against Rodgers. I wonder if KC's defensive improvements late last season could have been Crennel figuring out how to handle these kind of options.

Remember how we used to hate Greg Robison's "spinner" package with 2 DL? Crennel employed that a lot late last season, but it was actually more effective. He also attacked the passer much more agressively late in the season.

Part of that might have been Justin Houston's emergence. Remember how at the beginning of the year we were all wondering why houton only played in pass coverage instead going with his strengths as a pass rusher? I think the idea was to get houston to focus on the coverage aspects of his game.

With defenses increasingly geared to stop the pass with hybrid defenders, the Chiefs might be perfectly aligned to exploit those adjustments with a smash-mouth run game.Teams might be so concerned to stop the Drew Brees/Aaron Rodgers of the world they don't field enough big uglies to stand up to power running attacks in the last 20 minutes of games.

The problem with Spinner's spinner is that he would employ it against a basic pro set 3 wide package, or a simple shotgun formation with out the spread package.

DJ's left nut
08-23-2012, 03:15 PM
I wonder if zone-blitzing will come back into vogue.

I know it was big for a couple of years, until teams realized that DEs in coverage is usually a bad idea. However, if you go into a nickle package with guys like Houston and Hali as your DEs, you could absolutely sprint those guys out into coverage and do some exotic interior/corner blitzing to really throw things into complete chaos.

I don't think you'll get back to those Carolina Panthers defenses that utilized the lineman zone-blitz scheme as a primary option, but I wouldn't be shocked to see them out of sub packages more often.

milkman
08-23-2012, 03:22 PM
I think we ar going to see teams look for corners who have some cover skills, but are also physical and versatile so that they can attack the line on running plays and cover the TEs on passing plays.

A hybrid corner/safety/LB

And I think Nagata is the prototype D-Lineman, who can line up anywhere on the line and make a stop or get after the passer.

milkman
08-23-2012, 03:24 PM
Bottom line, I think versatility at all three levels of the defense is going to be the key to playing good defense as the league moves forward, even moreso than it has been in the recent past.

JohnnyV13
08-23-2012, 06:23 PM
Bottom line, I think versatility at all three levels of the defense is going to be the key to playing good defense as the league moves forward, even moreso than it has been in the recent past.

Not to sound like a psuedo-intellectual but Sun Tzu sort of comes to mind, where he talks about "Amorphous Forms" being the best way to configure an army.