View Full Version : Do we really want to go to the playoffs?
alanm
11-14-2000, 09:18 AM
I realize I am setting myself up for "bandwagon" epithets, but the question is sincere. Let's ignore for a moment the question of CAN we get a Wild Card and ask de we WANT a Wild Card?
We have no ground game whatsoever. Our Defense most closely resembles a colander. Our Special Teams have not been special for well over a year. We are strictly a one-trick pony.
When Grbac has a great game, we lose a heartbreaker [Raiders]. When Grbac has an off day, we lose an embarrassment [49ers]. The entire weight of this team rests on Grbac's shoulders. Now that we have been exposed as rushing poseurs, the rest of the NFL will follow suit and drop back into coverage and dare us to beat them with the run.
The sad truth is that we cannot beat them with the run. Our OL is decimated, our HBs are mediocre and our OC appears to be suffering from a bipolar syndrome. Our ground game is mortally wounded and will not recover without a complete overhaul.
So, do we really want to get into the playoffs? There is no joy there for us. We would be lucky to avoid complete humiliation, much less win a game.
I am not advocating a tank. I don't believe in that. I am simply asking fans if a Wild Card playoff berth serves the best interests of the Chiefs. IMO, we have no chance at making the playoffs anyway, but the question remains.
xoxo~
gaz
bracing himself for the coming "bandwagon" storm.<BR>
redbrian
11-14-2000, 09:22 AM
The worst thing about this team making the playoffs is the poor draft position & tough schedule they'd receive. Next year KC will probably have at least 2 or 3 more new starters...they SHOULD have at least 4, IMO, at guard, RB, OLB, and at least one at DT if not 2.
The last thing KC needs is to have a tough schedule next year with a bunch of new guys.
Fat Homer
11-14-2000, 09:23 AM
I am officially advocating a complete rebuild. Gut this team - from Ownership on down... 'slash and burn' time. Since '97, we've been stagnating. Peterson's time has come... and passed (twice over).
Raiderhater
11-14-2000, 09:29 AM
What Clint said...
darkchief
11-14-2000, 09:35 AM
I must be a glutton for punishment because I still want to go the playoffs. Even though I know that our running game sucks & our defense can't stop the run, I still hold out hope that we can make it to the playoffs. If we did make the playoffs, I'm sure we wouldn't go far, but at least we'd have a chance for the big game. If we don't go the playoffs and end up at 8-8 or 9-7, our draft postition will still suck and an easy schedule is never a guarantee no matter where you finish.
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It looks I picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue!
Snapper
11-14-2000, 09:38 AM
Gaz great question. I want to see the Chiefs finish 10-6 or 11-5. Both are possible. If the playoff gods smile upon us then I would take a trip to the playoffs. But I would rather see us just miss the playoffs and create some fire in the belly of this team. I have enjoyed this team. I have never once thought that we would make the playoffs. I like Greg Wesley, Maz should be a starter, The other rookie DB needs a little help. On offense we are just a running back away. What needs changing is the coaching staff. Keep Gun, I like him. Jimmy Raye I'll let him stay as well. But Kurt and Mike need to go, they suck!
Hoover
Coogs
11-14-2000, 09:38 AM
What HC said!
No, I don't want a Wild Card, and I agree this is likely moot anyway. Barring a miraculous turnaround, this KC team ain't goin anywhere past .500 in 2000.
Not only am I hedging against this miracle so we can get a better draft slot, but I have ulterior motives as well. I want there to be NO DOUBT WHATSOEVER, this coaching staff has gotta go. I'd truly prefer for CP to go as well!!!
ct
kctitus, this is for you: jeff diamond
The-Chief
11-14-2000, 09:47 AM
Gaz:
You had teams in the 1990s reach the playoffs only to suffer mostly 1st round heart attacks (one notable exception). No one then seemed to wonder if you should try for the playoffs. Because now it seems obvious your team has no playoff winning chances instead of the illusion it had playoff chances - why should it make a difference?
Besides, unless you changed your mind and now advocate playing rookies to enhance losing chances for the sake of higher draft picks, don't you want your team to win ganmes no matter what?
Lurker Brett
11-14-2000, 09:49 AM
My personality tends to be more forward looking then hoping to just get into the playoffs. Teams not only win championships by assembling both great players and coaches but timing also a major factor.
If the Chiefs were showing improvement it would be one thing, unfortunately our game has looked miserable the last two weeks.
I am even to the point where I question Gun's ability. I would like to see us try to reestablish some kind of a running game. I would like to see us feature Cloud and Moreau with at least 20-25 attempts each.
One thing I did notice, our running game lacks ANY imagination. If we ran a true misdirection play I'd faint.
Warrior5
11-14-2000, 09:50 AM
Yes! I do want to go to the playoffs. There are 2 main considerations as far as I am concerned:
1. We'd move up in the draft if we have a losing season
2. We might clean out the coaching staff if we don't make the playoffs.
I don't care as much about draft position as many do. Look at the draft......if we go in the tank, we'll draft about 10th give or take. If we improve and get a wild-card we'll draft around 20th. There are plenty of good players available at #20. Many of us clamoured for Shaun Alexander last year and he was available until 19. We got Morris at 21. Not to mention we have so many needs to fill, the biggest of which is RB or on the defensive line. Don't tell me there are no good D-linemen available then. Howard (?) of the Saints was taken in the 2nd round. It's about talent evaluation more than draft position, and we have had some real success. If we're really stuck for a RB we can trade up the 10 spots if one of choice won't be available, and I bet one will. As it is, the contracts are smaller where we draft and we are screwed cap-wise.
Most of us would love to see the coaching staff cleaned out for once and for all. There is a small chance we could get someone like Norv Turner (who I'd like). IMO there is a bigger chance we'd just get another pathetic in-house promotion of somebody like Willie Shaw.
I don't want to see a losing season followed by a pathetic house-cleaning operation. I'll hope for the playoffs and then take what may come.
alanm
11-14-2000, 09:52 AM
RC-
I covered your question in the topic. Please go back and read what I wrote and then ask your questions. If after re-reading, you think that I have been unclear in my position, please let me know.
Thanks.
xoxo~
gaz
wondering if some folks read more than the topic header.<BR>
Monty
11-14-2000, 09:56 AM
I want whatever will get the current management/coaching staff swept out the door the fastest.
Coogs
11-14-2000, 09:57 AM
It's a sad state of affairs in Chiefsville, RC. No doubt about that!
Damn right I want my Chiefs to win! BUT, I'm so disgusted with the current regime, Gun and Peterson included, a wimper finish to this season may ensure some serious offseason changes. I HOPE!!
We make some progress in 2000, namely the rookies are learning on the field, and the MaulBall attack is dead. But we've taken several more steps in the wrong direction than in the right direction.
Our D has disentigrated to a putrid mess, and our OLine needs a significant overhaul. Never before has our mediocre Committee been so pathetic; no holes, no yards. Without the best interior OLine in the league, we have NO ground game at all. The loss of DT, and then Hicks to injury, has eliminated any semblance of a pass rush.
Gunther Magoo has no clue, as evidenced by his very sad comments at halftime Sunday. Sorry, Gun, I do like you, but you're not the man for the job.
ct
the winds of change are blowin fierce
Fat Homer
11-14-2000, 09:58 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Helvetica, verdana, ariel">quote:</font><HR>But I would rather see us just miss the playoffs and create some fire in the belly of this team<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Basically, a repeat of last season!? NO THANK YOU!
This team peaked in '97... it has steadily deteriorated since. Gut it like a fish!
thehead
11-14-2000, 09:58 AM
PLAYOFFS, PLAYOFFS!!!
Yes, I want to go and win just one damn game so we can then run ButtPack off for good!!!
http://63.249.247.210/ubb/biggrin.gif
Seriously, I would like to go because as they say "anything can happen". I know that it would then put us a lower draft position, but weighing the two I'd rather go and have the chance, rather than not going and only picking 3 or 4 spots higher.
Now, looking at the remaining schedule and looking at the last three week's performances I think it is mute - we probably will not go unless Elvis get's the help he rightly deserves.
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Wade
PUT MAZ IN THE BACKFIELD AND GIVE HIM THE BALL!!!
pauly24_76
11-14-2000, 09:58 AM
Nope! Don't want the playoffs because of above and because we need a high draft pick. Running back please! If that sounds like I lost hope its only because I realized we have no chance of winning a title this year. Chief fan till I'm 6' under but lets face reality and fall back and re-build.
AustinChief
11-14-2000, 10:20 AM
NO PLAYOFFS! I want the 3 stooges gone! If it means having a losing season and getting rid of Gunther, then fine...<BR>
ROYC75
11-14-2000, 10:26 AM
Agree the Chiefs are not a playoff team .That said no way would i want them in the playoffs to lose in the 1st round AGAIN
CHIEFS
The-Chief
11-14-2000, 12:26 PM
Gaz:
Golly gee, I THOUGHT I read it well. Let’s see...
You acknowledge, in general, your team sucks and doesn’t belong in the playoffs. You want your team to play to win. You want what’s best for your team. You wondered if having the playoffs as a target is useful.
What other points did you make?
It seemed more than obvious the answer to your question is “yes, there is a real benefit for the chiefs to seek the playoffs only to die there.”
The benefit is that your team can show they have some balls left and can - and will - stand up to the competition in the next six games instead of bend at the waist and absorb more butt-kickings like the last two games.
It seemed obvious, anyway.
So, instead, I chose to ask you the question what difference does it make whether or not your team sucks and implied you should play to win.
Right now, your team still has a chance, slight as it may be, to make the playoffs. You can assure yourself playoff exclusion only by losing more games. That you ask whether wanting a playoff berth, or making the playoffs, benefits your team after stating how poorly you believe they would fare strongly suggests you believe not making the playoffs is the better answer. But you state “I am not advocating a tank.” That is why I also asked if perhaps you had changed your mind about playing to win – your statements don’t fit together well.
Cannibal
11-14-2000, 12:50 PM
The answer is yes I want them in the playoffs. The reason is that success breeds success. These guys haven't tasted success in 3 years. Winning is an attitude. It gives a team confidence. And in the playoffs, anything can happen. I understand the odds of actually doing something in the playoffs, and maybe in the long run we would be better off getting a better draft pick and an easier schedule. But that is not what it is about. These guys need to step up and lead us to the playoffs. These guys need an attitude that their backs are against the wall and if they are not in the postseason it means their jobs. You don't build a successful program by going from missing the playoffs by a kick to getting your *** kicked up and down the field...
ColoradoChief
11-14-2000, 12:58 PM
Face it, this team doesn't DESERVE to be in the playoffs. IF this team goes to the playoffs, they're simply going to make an early bow out again. What will that accomplish? Well as Clint said in #1, worse draft position and a tougher schedule. And an extra incentive for for Hunt to keep King Carl, Gun, and the 3 Stooges.
I love my team and I don't want them to tank. But I can face facts, yeah we can pull one out of our *** and beat the hell out of the Rams, but we're still not a very good team.
I say keep playing the rookies with an eye towards building for the future and forget about the playoffs this year. We're not ready for them this year.
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Gary
KC Hawke
11-14-2000, 01:28 PM
The only reason I would not like to make the playoffs is that if we do, Gunther and Carl will say that the team is on the right track.
They clearly are not on the right track. And it will only give Gunther more reason to keep Stock and Kurt S. Now, does anyone really want those guys back?
alanm
11-14-2000, 01:56 PM
RC-
I want the team to try and win every game. If we are 5-10 in the last game of the season, I will be cheering for them to win. I never want my team to play to lose. They gave up once in my memory and that was against NE. I turned the TV off. The only time I have not watched the game till the sweet or bitter end.
My question was: does reaching the playoffs serve the best interests of the Chiefs? That is a different question from: do we try to reach the playoffs? Our target, our goal, should be to win as many games as we possibly can. The difference in the questions is very clear to me. Is it clear to you as well?
I was wondering if folks thought that getting to the playoffs was a good thing for the team. You think [Post #18] that it is more than obvious that it does serve the best interests of the Chiefs to do so. That we can demonstrate our manhood that way.
As you can read here, it is not all that obvious. Some fans would welcome ANY finish that rid us of the Stooges. Some think that reaching the playoffs and bumping early would only ensure us another low draft pick. Others want the playoffs no matter what. The fact that some Chiefs fans disagree with you indicates that the answer is not quite as "obvious" as you thought, doesn't it?
xoxo~
gaz
passing time with What Ifs.<BR>
ColoradoChief
11-14-2000, 02:24 PM
I think one of the problems of the Chiefs organization over the past decade has been they have been concerned about building a winning, playoff contending team, and not a CHAMPIONSHIP team. There is a difference.
We had a great time watching the Chiefs during the 90's. But what has "just getting to the playoffs" accomplished? I don't think we're any closer to being a real SB contender today than we were 10 years ago. Oh maybe we win more games, we definitely have some very talented players (Gonzo for example), but this TEAM is still not there.
Yeah I know deep down we all do want to go to the playoffs, but again I ask, what does that accomplish when we know we're not a serious SB contender with the coaches and guys we have on the field right now?
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Gary
[This message has been edited by gh4chiefs (edited 11-14-2000).]
CarolinaChief
11-14-2000, 02:44 PM
Cormac, I totally agree with you. I've posted this before and will do so again. 21 posted 10-16-2000 03:31 PM
------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Getting mid to late first round draft picks is NOT a BAD thing!!! Why people cannot see this is beyond me. Consider Tony G., Slymo, Woods, Riley, and Tait. They were all mid to late first round picks and are all now very good players at their position. The best part is that their contracts are very reasonable for being first rounders. I mean, look at Tony G's contract. He makes MAYBE a millon or so a year, as does Slymo and the rest. Tony is also THE best TE in the game. Now Consider Courtney Brown, Arrington, Samuels, Manning, Couch, etc. Sure these guys are good players, maybe even the best at their position. However, that goodness comes at a price. Courtney Brown, although I'm not sure of the specifics, makes at least ten million a year. Couch is getting close to that, as is Arrington and Samuels. Now compare Brown's performance to that of Tony G. or Slymo. Is he worth 9 million more per year against the salary cap? I don't believe so. That money could be better spent on fourth rounders like Donnie or undrafted FA's like Hicks, Anders, or T-Rich. The payoff will be there for most of the lottery guys, but to me, it is no different than signing a really expensive FA, whom you alone have the rights to. The payoff is also usually there for the late first rounders, whom the Chiefs have built their success around. 9-7, 10-6 give us the best of both worlds. Remember, TD was a sixth rounder. Draft well, and the salary cap will take care of itself.
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GO PITT!
ColoradoChief
11-14-2000, 03:36 PM
Pitt you're right about Tony G, but if you recall we had to trade up several spots to get ahead of the Cowboys in the draft. Fortunately we were able to do so. Otherwise we would have been stuck with LeFluer (sp?).
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Gary
wutamess
11-14-2000, 03:52 PM
Do any of you fear losing our top talent? Year after year of dissapointment in a system like this, they play their hearts out, and because of the bull headed coaches and managers, they lose game after game even though they play as hard as they can. On top of that, some fans don't appreciate them. If I was any one of those guys, I would make damn sure I could go to a winning team after my contract was up. I just feel like we are wasting talent, and the guys who really ARE playing are going to get fed up.
[This message has been edited by bishop_74 (edited 11-14-2000).]
shakesthecat
11-14-2000, 04:20 PM
I know all Chief fans want to get into the playoffs, but I see the legitimacy of the question. To answer, no, I do not think getting to the playoffs serves the Chiefs greater needs. Most of the reasons have been given, coaches, draft picks, easier schedules and IMO, are very credible, however, I have a greater fear of another demoralizing defeat, would impact this team, more than not making it in the first place.
The-Chief
11-14-2000, 04:44 PM
Gaz:
Actually, I’m not sure I see the distinction until something else is defined.
Perhaps the best, first question is “What objectives, in your opinion, are in your team’s best interests NOW? Make the playoffs? Win just enough to be respectable and fall short of the playoffs? Play the rookies and assure yourself of more lost games, a higher draft position, and possibly achieve some coaching turnover? What other possibilities (this list is not inclusive)? Please keep in mind the small realities around the first question - little things, like players and coaches wanting to keep their jobs, and how poor performances and lost games are incompatible with job security.
It’s your topic. I addressed “obvious” relative to you - no one else – based on what you wrote.
crazy chiefs fan
11-14-2000, 05:36 PM
YES.........See post #19...WELL PUT!
TracyT
11-14-2000, 08:04 PM
Nice one, Pittsburg. With ya, Cormac.
rh http://63.249.247.210/ubb/mad.gif
[This message has been edited by redhed (edited 11-14-2000).]
dabreeze
11-14-2000, 08:24 PM
Gaz, Wis Chief,
Hell Yes, I want them in the playoffs. I would like the Chiefs to prove me wrong! I get tired of being right all the time! I want one of two things: Either make the playoffs and win a game or two OR go 5-11 and rebuild. This mediocre crap has gotten old. The only thing it has accomplished is keeping the seats full and fooling a lot of Chiefs fans that believe that guys like Bam Morris, Steve Bono, Elvis Grbac, and Chester McGlockton are the missing link.
The Blessed Virgin Larry
11-14-2000, 10:59 PM
Packfan,
Grbac is now a good QB. If he had a Stud RB with him, he would be even better. I never thought I'd say this but there are NOT amny QB's that are beter than Elvis. More mobile - yes, but NOT many that are better.
TeenagerFromMars
11-15-2000, 09:56 AM
I always want the Chiefs to win. I almost wish I could root for losses, because with a poor season some areas of need would be addressed. Most of of them have been sighted in this thread. But to add my .02, the most glaring need is the coaching. All 3 of the Stooges and Shaw must be fired. I am also losing faith more with each passing week with Magoo. However, I'd be willing to see what he could accomplish with a competent staff.
the milkman
seeking the comfort of my recliner
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Red Eyes
Help!!!
Mark M [BornChiefs]
11-15-2000, 10:15 AM
I absolutely WANT the Chiefs to make the playoffs..that being said, don't think they will...middle of the round picks are just as good for talent and will make cap hits easier...I'm just not sure how I could adjust to the Chiefs picking(gulp) after!!the Raiders...
GAZ, don't sweat RC, he is one of those people that punched 2 holes in the ballot...
alanm
11-15-2000, 01:36 PM
RC-
You misread my intentions. I regret that I was not clear.
IMO, our best interest at any time is to win every game. However, once we are mathematically eliminated from the playoffs [next week, for example at our current rate of decay], I play the rookies/FAs to see what talent we have. I no longer give playing time to Anders, who is clearly on his last legs or Bennett, who belongs to an obsolete version of the team. I abandon the "protect the rookies" crap and go back to good ol' attacking Chiefs Defense and see how the new kids perform in bump & run coverage under real game pressure. I put Maslowski and Atkins and Stills and Alford and Cloud and Moreau and Hall and Ricks and Collins [in blow-outs] on the field in order to evaluate our needs for the off-season.
True, playing rookies theoretically could cost you a game here or there, but that has not been the case for the Chiefs so far. Of our 5 losses, 4 of them are attributable to bad coaching decisions, particularly by our DC. Indianapolis simply has more firepower than we do [James]. The only rookie drawing condemnation is Dennis, and he is hampered by playing in Schottenheimer's disgusting zone Defense. The rookies have not hurt KC this season, our coaching staff has done the vast majority of the damage.
xoxo~
gaz
would like to start some rookie coaches.<BR>
thehead
11-15-2000, 02:17 PM
Packfan,
Okay, here is the deal. I don't think one thing you say makes a damn bit of difference in how any of us feel about the Chiefs. If you were not such an arrogant POS, you might find someone here that actually would give a ****. Now, telling me that you wish the Chiefs would win a playoff game makes you look even more like an idiot. If this were to happen you would have no more BS to spill. So, what is it with you? Do you want the Chiefs to win, or do you want to keep on flapp'n your pie hole?<BR>
The-Chief
11-15-2000, 03:02 PM
Gaz:
Okay, play to win until mathematical elimination, after which evaluating rookies during game situations becomes the new best interest for chiefs. Yes? I’m not so sure the second part is something the coaches will use as it decreases their winning chances (however slight that may be) and increases the chances they receive a pink slip at season’s end.
I understand how you believe game plans and not the players have affected field play, but I’m not so sure that’s entirely true. Dennis, for one, looks lost in both man and zone coverage, and the last two opposing teams have used him to great advantage. Tackling has been a huge weakness with almost any defensive player you care to mention. These things can’t be accounted for with the proper game plan.
I agree the coaches should be replaced, for it seems the players are playing without confidence and seem to lack adequate training or direction. I think a few of the players need to leave too.
Robio9
11-15-2000, 03:16 PM
Wis:
He has a major hardon for Carl. Nothing you say will make any difference. I do find it funny that he continues to say that waiver wire pickups don't make a good team and in the same breath says our team has too much talent to play like we do. It's got to be hard to live with so many contradictions in one's head.
alanm
11-15-2000, 03:19 PM
RC-
Employees operating out of enlightened self-interest as opposed to the best interests of the team is almost expected. I don't know if Gunther is secure enough in his job to play the rookies and take the lumps as they fall.
I don't mind Dennis being abused by the enemy. It is inevitable when you play rookies. They will get burned and they will emerge as better players or burnt ends. I think it is a huge failure on Schottenheimer's part that he did not dictate Hasty covering the #1 WR on the enemy team. Instead, he simply lined us up and let the enemy dictate the terms. Yet another black mark on his resume, IMO.
BTW, when did you see Dennis in man coverage? I am so desperate for some old-fashioned Chiefs bump and run that I think I would have noticed…
xoxo~
gaz
eagerly awaiting pink slips for the Stooges.<BR>
The-Chief
11-15-2000, 04:27 PM
Gaz:
On certain sideline or flag routes it appeared Dennis was left to fend for himself. I guessed he was in man coverage but it might have been a safety failing to pick up the receiver.
I'll have to review the videotape to be certain.
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