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View Full Version : Chiefs Thigpen v Kasl


pr_capone
09-03-2012, 04:00 PM
Assume they both had equal opportunity with the first string players. They both ran the same camp and both are equally prepared to start the season. Based on what you have seen of them over the years and what you know of them as it stands (preseason results mean nothing for this poll)... who starts?

/because we really needed this thread on CP. HAD to happen.

Shogun
09-03-2012, 04:02 PM
Thigpen and its not even close

tk13
09-03-2012, 04:04 PM
Anybody who votes Thigpen in this thread should never be allowed to discuss football again.

Shogun
09-03-2012, 04:05 PM
You have Luke Hochevar in your sig. I cannot take anything you say seriously.

JD10367
09-03-2012, 04:06 PM
I refuse to vote, as the most sensible option, "Run the ball on every play," is not available.

Inmem58
09-03-2012, 04:07 PM
I swear I was bummed when we let Thigpen go.

KCUnited
09-03-2012, 04:07 PM
Chief fan, never stop being you.

Predarat
09-03-2012, 04:07 PM
Thigpin > cAssHole x100000000000

tk13
09-03-2012, 04:07 PM
Hochevar at least has 1st round talent and a 10 cent head. Thigpen has no talent, no head, zippo. He is the 4th string QB on a team with one of the worst QB situations in football. You are wanking it to Tim Tebow on steroids and deserved to be mocked for your complete and utter stupidity.

BigMeatballDave
09-03-2012, 04:08 PM
Where is the 3rd option for bullet thru the brain?

Shogun
09-03-2012, 04:10 PM
Hochevar at least has 1st round talent and a 10 cent head. Thigpen has no talent, no head, zippo. You are wanking it to Tim Tebow on steroids and deserved to be mocked for your complete and utter stupidity.

Luke Hochevar having the eighth-worst ERA of any pitcher with 100 or more starts since 1901.

No. Thigpen could come in and do exactly what matt cassel does or more.

Munson
09-03-2012, 04:10 PM
Thiggy wins.

Count Alex's Losses
09-03-2012, 04:11 PM
Thigpen, simply for the fact he wouldn't have cost us 60 million, and wouldn't have been given unearned chances to continue to be our QB.

Could have moved on from Thigpen's fail ass by now.

Stuck with Cassel for at least one more season, and probably two if Pioli is still here next season.

Inmem58
09-03-2012, 04:12 PM
Thigpen, simply for the fact he wouldn't have cost us 60 million, and wouldn't have been given unearned chances to continue to be our QB.

Could have moved on from Thigpen's fail ass by now.

Stuck with Cassel for at least one more season, and probably two if Pioli is still here next season.

Thigpen knows how to roll out too. He doesn't stand in the pocket waiting for defenders to make the sack. He's pretty mobile.

Direckshun
09-03-2012, 04:12 PM
Anybody who votes Thigpen in this thread should never be allowed to discuss football again.

:thumb:

tk13
09-03-2012, 04:14 PM
Luke Hochevar having the eighth-worst ERA of any pitcher with 100 or more starts since 1901.

No. Thigpen could come in and do exactly what matt cassel does or more.

Thigpen has never completed even 55% of his passes in a season. Ever. He's barely thrown more TD's than INT's and has a career 1-11 record as a starter.

There are plenty of backup QBs you can make an argument about regarding this, but including Thigpen in this discussion is complete stupidity. I mean, serious stupidity. He is not better than Ricky Stanzi.

Deberg_1990
09-03-2012, 04:14 PM
Thiggy is 1-11 as a starter and has been cut by 2 or 3 teams now. Yet yet there are still believers?

Count Alex's Losses
09-03-2012, 04:14 PM
Thigpen knows how to roll out too. He doesn't stand in the pocket waiting for defenders to make the sack. He's pretty mobile.

That's another thing, other than his superior ability to throw down the field, that Thigpen had over Cassel.

He was sacked once every 16.1 pass attempts in 2008. Not very good, but better than Cassel.

Inmem58
09-03-2012, 04:15 PM
That's another thing, other than his superior ability to throw down the field, that Thigpen had over Cassel.

He was sacked once every 16.1 pass attempts in 2008. Not very good, but better than Cassel.

Give Thigpen the line we have now and he'll be improved off the get go.






















**** you Cassel for being a shitty QB

Count Alex's Losses
09-03-2012, 04:16 PM
Thigpen has never completed even 55% of his passes in a season. Ever. He's barely thrown more TD's than INT's and has a career 1-11 record as a starter.

There are plenty of backup QBs you can make an argument about regarding this, but including Thigpen in this discussion is complete stupidity.

Two can play at this game.

Thigpen has never played on a team like the 08 Pats or '10 Chiefs.

And when Cassel played on crappy Chiefs teams, he too lost more than he won and completed a low percentage of his passes.

It's a push.

You give Thigpen the coaching and talent Cassel had in NE in 2008 and I bet he can go 21/11/3600.

Thiggy went 18/12/2600 in 11 starts in 08 with the crappy Chiefs.

Shogun
09-03-2012, 04:17 PM
GOD DAMNIT CLAY. WHY DID YOU HAVE TO DELETE THIGGY RIDES AGAIN

Count Alex's Losses
09-03-2012, 04:20 PM
GOD DAMNIT CLAY. WHY DID YOU HAVE TO DELETE THIGGY RIDES AGAIN

I can upload it tomorrow night when I get home. :)

tk13
09-03-2012, 04:20 PM
I'm not even going to waste any more time debating this. If you truly think Thigpen is more skilled than any of our three QBs you truly have no idea what you are talking about and need to go find a backgammon board to talk on. I think this is KnowMo level stupidity. But maybe everyone is just a troll anymore.

Shogun
09-03-2012, 04:23 PM
I can upload it tomorrow night when I get home. :)

thank god

Canofbier
09-03-2012, 04:26 PM
Anybody who votes Thigpen in this thread should never be allowed to discuss football again.

http://i.imgur.com/qxZ4q.gif

Count Alex's Losses
09-03-2012, 04:26 PM
I'm not even going to waste any more time debating this. If you truly think Thigpen is more skilled than any of our three QBs you truly have no idea what you are talking about and need to go find a backgammon board to talk on. I think this is KnowMo level stupidity. But maybe everyone is just a troll anymore.

I don't.

I am only arguing that they are similar QBs.

Thiggy going 18/12/2600 should not be ignored.

It's comparable, perhaps even superior, to what Cassel did with a similar Chiefs team the following season.

the Talking Can
09-03-2012, 04:27 PM
Anybody who votes Thigpen in this thread should never be allowed to discuss football again.

thank you

Rain Man
09-03-2012, 04:27 PM
I went with Cassel because I think he has a higher ceiling than Thigpen. If Cassel would play a little more boldly, I think he could be serviceable. Thigpen was serviceable because he was a running back who passed. He was basically Tebow before Tebow was Tebow.

If you were putting them on the field for one game right now, I'm honestly not sure which one would be better. In one game, Thigpen's running could carry the day. However, over the course of a season and in the long run, I'd go with Cassel.

Start Croyle
09-03-2012, 04:29 PM
Given the same opportunities, same amount of training camp, and same good luck avoiding injuries, CROYLE is the clear choice among Chiefs QBs of the last 5 seasons!

tk13
09-03-2012, 04:30 PM
Actually, check that, I would amend the law. I wouldn't take Thigpen over any of our 4 QB's. I would rather have Tanney than Thigpen. I could probably find 100 QB's in the league who are better. That's why he's about to get cut by the freaking Buffalo Bills. Just because he runs around like Tebow in Chan's gimmick offense doesn't make him have potential. At least Tebow wins games. Now, make it law.

Count Alex's Losses
09-03-2012, 04:30 PM
Thigpen was never really given a chance to develop as a starting QB after his one year in KC.

Cassel's contract gave him an undeserved chance.

We really don't know what Thigpen could have been had he been given a chance to develop because of a stupid contract.

Could have been the next Rich Gannon!

Canofbier
09-03-2012, 04:30 PM
The main problem with Thigpen is that he doesn't possess the physical talent or mental wherewithal to run a regular NFL offense. His "okay" games came in a simple gimmick offense that was specifically to minimize his weaknesses. Now that our team is stocked with weapons, it doesn't make any sense to dumb the offense down and eliminate a lot of the things that our playmakers do well. Not that Cassel is the answer, either, but I give Thigpen zero chance of leading a team to much of anything in the postseason.

Count Alex's Losses
09-03-2012, 04:30 PM
I went with Cassel because I think he has a higher ceiling than Thigpen. If Cassel would play a little more boldly, I think he could be serviceable. Thigpen was serviceable because he was a running back who passed. He was basically Tebow before Tebow was Tebow.

If you were putting them on the field for one game right now, I'm honestly not sure which one would be better. In one game, Thigpen's running could carry the day. However, over the course of a season and in the long run, I'd go with Cassel.

Thigpen averaged something like 235 yards passing per start in 2008.

That's not only better than Tebow, that's better than Cassel for his Chiefs career, and it's not even close.

Deberg_1990
09-03-2012, 04:31 PM
Thigpen was never really given a chance to develop as a starting QB after his one year in KC.

Cassel's contract gave him an undeserved chance.

We really don't know what Thigpen could have been had he been given a chance to develop because of a stupid contract.

Could have been the next Rich Gannon!

So you think your smarter than all the coaches and talent evaluators who do this for a living?

Start Croyle
09-03-2012, 04:32 PM
Most talent evaluators get overridden by coaches and GMs. Most GMs and coaches just go on what other coaches and GMs already decided. People don't realize this until a player like Jeremy Lin comes along.

Count Alex's Losses
09-03-2012, 04:34 PM
No, I'm probably about as dumb as Scott Pioli. I was gaga for Matt Cassel in 2009, too.

My lack of ego, however, allows me to admit my mistake.

Pioli can't, or won't. Either way, fuck him.

pr_capone
09-03-2012, 04:43 PM
The main problem with Thigpen is that he doesn't possess the physical talent or mental wherewithal to run a regular NFL offense.

Neither does Kasl. That being the case, I'd rather have someone that can either A. Make a play with his legs or B. Throw it downfield (downfield meaning anything greater than 20yd) and let one of our physical #1 draftpick wr's go get it.

Kasl brings absolutely nothing more to the table than Thigpen.

Just Passin' By
09-03-2012, 04:54 PM
Thigpen actually getting votes is evidence that this place needs to be fumigated.

Molitoth
09-03-2012, 04:58 PM
As much as I hate to say it, we know what both players can do and Cassel has shown better performances.

Both QB's are shit though.

Phobia
09-03-2012, 05:00 PM
Yeah - if those are my choices, I'll take the bullet. None of the above - and it's not even close.

Sweet Daddy Hate
09-03-2012, 05:02 PM
Thigpen and its not even close

LMAO I voted for his gimpy little ass too.

the Talking Can
09-03-2012, 05:03 PM
Thigpen actually getting votes is evidence that this place needs to be fumigated.

Cassel's cock jockey should just stay out of QB threads...thanks

ILChief
09-03-2012, 05:04 PM
I picked Cassel. Neither are very good though

Sweet Daddy Hate
09-03-2012, 05:04 PM
No, I'm probably about as dumb as Scott Pioli. I was gaga for Matt Cassel in 2009, too.

My lack of ego, however, allows me to admit my mistake.

Pioli can't, or won't. Either way, fuck him.


Really?

Count Alex's Losses
09-03-2012, 05:10 PM
Oh, yes.

I was in love with him.

Really liked what I saw in his New England games.

Thought he could improve on his down the field throwing and pocket presence.

FAIL

Guru
09-03-2012, 05:11 PM
I refuse to vote in this poll.

Messier
09-03-2012, 05:13 PM
We'd know what the rest of the NFl thinks of Cassel if the Chiefs let him go.

I've got to think most think of him as being in the same boat as Orton, a front line back up. Whereas Thigpen is having trouble staying on as a 3rd string QB, for a coach that loves him.

Mr. Laz
09-03-2012, 05:13 PM
I refuse to vote in this poll.
i imagine this is pretty common.

anyone that is being the least bit rationale and isn't a complete moron would have to pick Cassel.

a lot of people hate Cassel and refuse to vote for him regardless.

Rain Man
09-03-2012, 05:14 PM
I refuse to vote in this poll.

Ah, I see. So you're treating the poll like it's the deep receiver for Cassel in the play diagram.

Guru
09-03-2012, 05:15 PM
i imagine this is pretty common.

anyone that is being the least bit rationale and isn't a complete moron would have to pick Cassel.

a lot of people hate Cassel and refuse to vote for him regardless.

I like Cassel just fine, as a person. As a player, I can never vote in favor of him. But there is no way in hell I would vote for Thigpen either.

Mr. Laz
09-03-2012, 05:15 PM
We'd know what the rest of the NFl thinks of Cassel if the Chiefs let him go.

I've got to think most think of him as being in the same boat as Orton, a front line back up. Whereas Thigpen is having trouble staying on as a 3rd string QB, for a coach that loves him.
Cassel will get a job when he leaves us.

He will spend the rest of his career making a 1.5 million-ish per as a backup.

Rain Man
09-03-2012, 05:16 PM
I like Cassel just fine, as a person. As a player, I can never vote in favor of him. But there is no way in hell I would vote for Thigpen either.

Admittedly, voting was not a fun task on this.

Guru
09-03-2012, 05:16 PM
Ah, I see. So you're treating the poll like it's the deep receiver for Cassel in the play diagram.

Not even that. Every now and then Cassel actually takes that shot and even connected a couple times.

pr_capone
09-03-2012, 05:18 PM
Cassel will get a job when he leaves us.

He will spend the rest of his career making a 1.5 million-ish per as a backup.

At best. There are some teams deep enough that he would be the 3rd.

Guru
09-03-2012, 05:27 PM
At best. There are some teams deep enough that he would be the 3rd.

Pioli would never allow that to happen

Messier
09-03-2012, 05:30 PM
At best. There are some teams deep enough that he would be the 3rd.

Well sure, but a team that has a really good backup wouldn't sign him to be their 3rd string.

That's like saying, Tony Romo is good, but there are some teams he'd have to be the backup on. True, and those teams probably wouldn't sign him.

Cassel would be a really solid backup.

pr_capone
09-03-2012, 05:47 PM
Well sure, but a team that has a really good backup wouldn't sign him to be their 3rd string.

That's like saying, Tony Romo is good, but there are some teams he'd have to be the backup on. True, and those teams probably wouldn't sign him.

Cassel would be a really solid backup.

I'm not suggesting anyone sign him. I'm saying that he is such a flaming pile of shit that there are teams who have 2nd stringers sitting on the bench who are better than Kasl.

rico
09-03-2012, 06:23 PM
i imagine this is pretty common.

anyone that is being the least bit rationale and isn't a complete moron would have to pick Cassel.

a lot of people hate Cassel and refuse to vote for him regardless.

Yup. Pretty much what influenced my vote.

Mr. Laz
09-03-2012, 06:39 PM
Yup. Pretty much what influenced my vote.
which is just silly

Cassel is clearly a better quarterback but you can't say so because???


If Thigpen was here we would be worse than we are now but you voted for him?

It's not about like
It's not about money

people around here have got some stupid ass lynch mob hatred going for Cassel that is just pointless.

You would rather play WORSE with Thigpen than play with Cassel?


it's just stupid

pr_capone
09-03-2012, 06:44 PM
which is just silly

Cassel is clearly a better quarterback but you can't say so because???


If Thigpen was here we would be worse than we are now but you voted for him?

It's not about like
It's not about money

people around here have got some stupid ass lynch mob hatred going for Cassel that is just pointless.

You would rather play WORSE with Thigpen than play with Cassel?


it's just stupid

If Thigpen was here he would do no worse, I'm more than willing to say he might not do better, but he would do absolutely no worse than Kasl.

You know how I know this to be fact? Because a cardboard cut out of Timmy Brady would be a more effective QB than Kasl. This doesn't even come out of hate for the guy... was in his corner FOREVER. This comes out of the fact that he is not mobile, can't read a D, his whole throwing motion sucks, he couldn't even start a ****ing college game ahead of Matt ****ing Leinart.

Thiggy can at least put the ball downfield and let one KC's 2 #! WRs go get the ball. Something Kasl can only dream of doing. Thiggy will also get out of the pocket and run when the pressure comes. Mark will more often than not stand pat, triple pump, then take the sack.

jd1020
09-03-2012, 06:46 PM
If Thigpen was here he would do no worse, I'm more than willing to say he might not do better, but he would do absolutely no worse than Kasl.

You know how I know this to be fact? Because a cardboard cut out of Timmy Brady would be a more effective QB than Kasl. This doesn't even come out of hate for the guy... was in his corner FOREVER. This comes out of the fact that he is not mobile, can't read a D, his whole throwing motion sucks, he couldn't even start a ****ing college game ahead of Matt ****ing Leinart.

People said the same shit about Palko when Cassel went down and he became the starter.

Cassel isn't a top, or maybe even middle of the pack, caliber starter. But there are in fact QBs that are worse.

Mr. Laz
09-03-2012, 06:49 PM
Because a cardboard cut out of Timmy Brady would be a more effective QB than Kasl.
there's that logical thinking that we all love so much


yea, this makes your judgement about QB's so very,very reliable.

jjchieffan
09-03-2012, 06:52 PM
Thiggy is 1-11 as a starter and has been cut by 2 or 3 teams now. Yet yet there are still believers?


I could be mistaken, but I think the only team to cut him was the Vikings as a rookie trying to put him on their PS. We then traded him to Miami. I believe Miami then traded him to Buffalo. Am I right on this? I could be mixing up the facts.

cdcox
09-03-2012, 06:52 PM
Thigpen has never completed even 55% of his passes in a season. Ever. He's barely thrown more TD's than INT's and has a career 1-11 record as a starter.

There are plenty of backup QBs you can make an argument about regarding this, but including Thigpen in this discussion is complete stupidity. I mean, serious stupidity. He is not better than Ricky Stanzi.

But Thiggy runs around and stuff!!!

pr_capone
09-03-2012, 06:53 PM
People said the same shit about Palko when Cassel went down and he became the starter.

IIRC... People were calling for Stanzi.

Cassel isn't a top, or maybe even middle of the pack, caliber starter. But there are in fact QBs that are worse.

Give me the names of starters who are unequivocally worse than Kasl. I'm betting the list is less than 4 names long.

Misplaced_Chiefs_Fan
09-03-2012, 06:55 PM
We saw what Thigpen could do when he was here.

Nothing

He was a place holder, nothing more, nothing less. He was a back-up who got to play because Croyle AND Huard got hurt. He did so well, we immediately went out and got another quarterback to replace him.

He was so damn effective he led the Chiefs to a 1-10 record.

Good god, people. He sucks. He sucks hard. He's not going to ever be a starting quarterback in the NFL again and he sure the hell should never darken the door at Arrowhead even as a water boy.

Mr. Laz
09-03-2012, 06:56 PM
IIRC... People were calling for Stanzi.

Give me the names of starters who are unequivocally worse than Kasl. I'm betting the list is less than 4 names long.
Ron Jaworski already did and his dumps knows more about being an NFL QB than all of us combined.

pr_capone
09-03-2012, 06:56 PM
there's that logical thinking that we all love so much


yea, this makes your judgement about QB's so very,very reliable.

Hyperbole. It is a very cool word.

BossChief
09-03-2012, 06:57 PM
Let me just go ahead and put this craziness here...


In 11 games...

2608 passing yards
386 yards rushing
22 totaal touchdowns (18 passing tds, 3 rushing tds, 1 receiving touchdown)
12 interceptions

BTW

If you take those numbers and extrapolate them over the course of 16 games, you get:

4,407 total yards (WOW)
3793 passing yards
561 rushing yards
53 receiving yards (thank you, Ronde)
32 total touchdowns
17 interceptions

Couple that with our defense, and it would be a fun year.

Gimmick or not.

Go ahead and check my math...

cdcox
09-03-2012, 06:58 PM
people around here have got some stupid ass lynch mob hatred going for Cassel that is just pointless.


Cassel is head and shoulders better than Thigpen, but the point of the lynch mod hatred is that Cassel still sucks.

Misplaced_Chiefs_Fan
09-03-2012, 06:58 PM
Let me just go ahead and put this craziness here...

Let's extrapolate that out over 16 games.

1-10 in 11 games

2-14 in 16 games.

Three7s
09-03-2012, 07:04 PM
IIRC... People were calling for Stanzi.



Give me the names of starters who are unequivocally worse than Kasl. I'm betting the list is less than 4 names long.
Kevin Kolb/Josh Skelton
Blaine Gabbert
Mark Sanchez (tie)
Christian Ponder

That's all I can think of, and you can obviously argue about Sanchez.

BossChief
09-03-2012, 07:05 PM
Kevin Kolb/Josh Skelton
Blaine Gabbert
Mark Sanchez (tie)
Christian Ponder

That's all I can think of, and you can obviously argue about Sanchez.

have you seen Gabbert so far this year?

Might want to think twice on that one...

cdcox
09-03-2012, 07:10 PM
have you seen Gabbert so far this year?

Might want to think twice on that one...

Yeah, with a stellar defense, solid line and some decent WRs, I could Vision him winning a couple of playoff games.

Three7s
09-03-2012, 07:16 PM
have you seen Gabbert so far this year?

Might want to think twice on that one...
I'm just going off of what I saw last year.

pr_capone
09-03-2012, 07:28 PM
Kevin Kolb/Josh Skelton
Blaine Gabbert
Mark Sanchez (tie)
Christian Ponder

That's all I can think of, and you can obviously argue about Sanchez.

I won't argue the list. So we are in agreement that Kasl is at or in the very near vicinity of #28 overall.

I'm also betting that if we compiled a list of backups that we would want starting ahead of Kasl, the list is longer. At work so I can't research it but off the top of my head and I know I'm missing two or three others...

Moore
Orton
Garrard
Hasslebeck

Messier
09-03-2012, 07:33 PM
I'm not suggesting anyone sign him. I'm saying that he is such a flaming pile of shit that there are teams who have 2nd stringers sitting on the bench who are better than Kasl.

Well, since this is a thread about who's better, Cassel or Thigpen, I was just saying that if Cassel were a backup, most would say that team has one of the best QB situations in the NFL, while if Thigpen were to get cut, I think his career would be over.

Psyko Tek
09-03-2012, 07:45 PM
I refuse to vote, as the most sensible option, "Run the ball on every play," is not available.

that would be voting for thigpen

Just Passin' By
09-03-2012, 08:26 PM
I refuse to vote, as the most sensible option, "Run the ball on every play," is not available.

Then the terrorists win

Hog Farmer
09-03-2012, 08:48 PM
Why do people start useless fucking threads like this. Thigpen won't be a Chief and he sux as much as Cassel anyway.

pr_capone
09-03-2012, 09:12 PM
Why do people start useless ****ing threads like this. Thigpen won't be a Chief and he sux as much as Cassel anyway.

Because it is fun to bemoan our inevitable fate with Mark at the helm. If this season is gonna suck, then I am gonna have fun taking every fucking possible jab I can at our 4th year starting QB.

Big Smoke
09-03-2012, 10:46 PM
Pioli would never allow that to happen

Then Pioli can go with him.

J Diddy
09-03-2012, 10:51 PM
Because it is fun to bemoan our inevitable fate with Mark at the helm. If this season is gonna suck, then I am gonna have fun taking every ****ing possible jab I can at our 4th year starting QB.

I'll give you credit, your way this time was definitely unique.

Reerun_KC
09-03-2012, 10:51 PM
LOL. This fanbase gets more delusional and stupid as each day passes.

Sweet Daddy Hate
09-04-2012, 09:33 AM
Then Pioli can go with him.

A fuckin' men.

notorious
09-04-2012, 09:40 AM
LOL. This fanbase gets more delusional and stupid as each day passes.

Just when I think we have maxed out, we add a new wing to the nuthouse.

Pasta Giant Meatball
09-04-2012, 10:06 AM
Anybody who votes Thigpen in this thread should never be allowed to discuss football again.

Thread

Reerun_KC
09-04-2012, 10:37 AM
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We are going to need another short bus...

Shogun
09-04-2012, 07:54 PM
Cassel simply could not and would not be able to make some of these Throws.

Caseyguyrr
09-04-2012, 08:01 PM
Neither. They both are agonizing to watch

pr_capone
09-04-2012, 08:27 PM
Cassel simply could not and would not be able to make some MOST of these throws.

FYP (plus the capitalized T on throws)

Sweet Daddy Hate
09-05-2012, 04:30 PM
Compared to Cassel, I proudly voted for Thiggy.

Shit sandwich or turd burger; I made the call.

Spongeblack Bobtard
09-05-2012, 05:42 PM
I'd take Thiggy. I've always liked him and my wife's family is friends with his family.

O.city
09-05-2012, 05:58 PM
Thigpen couldn't run a conventional offense. We had to change the whole system around for him.


He's back with Gailey in Buffalo, who just traded for Tavaris Jackson to be their backup. What does that say about the guy?


Oh and by the way, who were we playing in 08 when he put up those numbers?