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View Full Version : Football Is this a legal block?


Joe Seahawk
09-16-2012, 09:45 PM
I think it's good.. thoughts?

http://cjzero.com/gifs/TateDecleatsLee.gif

Frazod
09-16-2012, 09:46 PM
Looks like an obvious helmet-to-helmet. Was it called?

Buck
09-16-2012, 09:46 PM
Yes.

DaFace
09-16-2012, 09:46 PM
I never can tell what the rules are on these, but it looked like a helmet to the chest, which I don't think is allowed.

Bugeater
09-16-2012, 09:46 PM
Dude, can't you see we're busy melting down on every player, coach and front office person in the Chiefs organization? We ain't got time for this crap.

Inmem58
09-16-2012, 09:47 PM
Helmet to helmet yes

KC Tattoo
09-16-2012, 09:47 PM
Looks good to me. It was against the Cowbows. Any hit on them should be legal.

Buck
09-16-2012, 09:47 PM
Looks like an obvious helmet-to-helmet. Was it called?

:spock:

BCD
09-16-2012, 09:47 PM
Other than leading with the helmet, yes.

Bewbies
09-16-2012, 09:47 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1J9tgrIMKo&sns=tw

Joe Seahawk
09-16-2012, 09:47 PM
There was a penalty thrown on the play.. a late hit on Wilson out of bounds..

Bugeater
09-16-2012, 09:47 PM
Wait, that's a Cowboys player. It's clean.

BCD
09-16-2012, 09:48 PM
It's not helmet to helmet.

Fruit Ninja
09-16-2012, 09:48 PM
look like he launched with his head to me, thats a foul i think!

Joe Seahawk
09-16-2012, 09:48 PM
Golden tate vs Sean Lee btw

milkman
09-16-2012, 09:48 PM
I have a hard time keeping up with all the rules changes, but I didn't think you were allowed to use the corown of your helmet any longer.

It is not helmet to hemet, but I don't think that matters anmore.

Bwana
09-16-2012, 09:49 PM
Helmet-to-helmet

Frazod
09-16-2012, 09:49 PM
Looks good to me. It was against the Cowbows. Any hit on them should be legal.

Good point. Fuck them.

BCD
09-16-2012, 09:49 PM
Helmet to helmet yes

No

Ace Gunner
09-16-2012, 09:49 PM
It should be. But Obviously, someone was hit, so, not legal.

BryanBusby
09-16-2012, 09:50 PM
No, it's not. Golden Tate launches himself (no no #1) and is leading with his helmet (#2) and struck him in the neck/head area (#3) against what was basically a defenseless player.

6. PASSED: Expanding the defenseless player rule to protect defensive players on crackback blocks, making it illegal to hit them in the head or neck area.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/03/28/nfl-rule-changes-for-2012/

He's going to be fined.

BCD
09-16-2012, 09:51 PM
There was no reason for Tate to hit him like that, just give him a shoulder.

Joe Seahawk
09-16-2012, 09:51 PM
No, it's not. Golden Tate launches himself (no no #1) and is leading with his helmet (#2) and struck him in the neck/head area (#3) against what was basically a defenseless player.

1 Tates feet are on the ground when he hits him
2 Chest
3 haha

BryanBusby
09-16-2012, 09:53 PM
You're awfully retarded and blind if you think his feet weren't leaving the ground, it was in the chest and Lee was aware it was coming.

Frazod
09-16-2012, 09:53 PM
Hell of a hit, though. :thumb:

Joe Seahawk
09-16-2012, 09:54 PM
You're awfully retarded and blind if you think his feet weren't leaving the ground, it was in the chest and Lee was aware it was coming.

So are you supposed to say "Hey I'm about to hit you"? :LOL:

BryanBusby
09-16-2012, 09:55 PM
So are you supposed to say "Hey I'm about to hit you"? :LOL:
Okay so you are retarded. Tate likely could of just pushed him to the ground without much effort seeing as Lee wasn't aware he was there, and it'd of been completely clean.

Joe Seahawk
09-16-2012, 09:57 PM
Okay so you are retarded. Tate likely could of just pushed him to the ground without much effort seeing as Lee wasn't aware he was there, and it'd of been completely clean.

What is your problem noob

BryanBusby
09-16-2012, 09:57 PM
What is your problem noob
You're a dumb ass homer.

Dylan
09-16-2012, 09:59 PM
OMG ... what a hit! Lee is a LB.

He looks defenseless to me - I hope that the play was a penalty

Joe Seahawk
09-16-2012, 09:59 PM
You're a dumb ass homer.

;)

Molitoth
09-16-2012, 10:01 PM
Probably legal, but somewhat cheap. He didn't really have to knock the shit out of the guy to get a good clean block in there.

Granted, I loved doing WR crack blocks to Linebackers when I was playing. It made me feel tough for a few minutes.

KChiefer
09-16-2012, 10:01 PM
It wasn't flagged.

Reminds me when Sapp blew that guy up basically ending his career.

Demonpenz
09-16-2012, 10:02 PM
eventually there is going to be penalties called if a guy is blocked and isn't a threat to make a tackle.

BryanBusby
09-16-2012, 10:04 PM
It wasn't flagged.

Reminds me when Sapp blew that guy up basically ending his career.

The scab refs had to spot the ball 3 times at one point until they finally got it right in the Jets-Steelers game. They are incredibly awful.

Joe Seahawk
09-16-2012, 10:08 PM
NFL description of a "defenseless" player

(a) Players in a defenseless posture are: [. . .]
(2) A receiver attempting to catch a pass; or who has completed a catch and has not had time to protect himself or has not clearly become a runner. If the receiver/runner is capable of avoiding or warding off the impending contact of an opponent, he is no longer a defenseless player;
[. . .]
(b) Prohibited contact against a player who is in a defenseless posture is:
(1) Forcibly hitting the defenseless player’s head or neck area with the helmet, facemask, forearm, or shoulder, regardless of whether the defensive player also uses his arms to tackle the defenseless player by encircling or grasping him; and
(2) Lowering the head and making forcible contact with the top/crown or forehead/”hairline” parts of the helmet against any part of the defenseless player’s body.”

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/ifE6XkqMX9g?feature=player_embedded" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

KChiefer
09-16-2012, 10:14 PM
The scab refs had to spot the ball 3 times at one point until they finally got it right in the Jets-Steelers game. They are incredibly awful.

You don't have to tell me. I'm anti-RR.

This play, I didn't know what to think. Is it cheap and therefore should be flagged? Yes, IMO.

However, I didn't know if the hit can be defined as illegal.

The Sapp play was years ago so hit were way less scrutinized. Unlike this play though, Sapp wasn't anywhere near the football and took a cheap-shot for zero reason. He then defended it by repeatedly saying, "It was legal." Sapp is a POS IMO. I'm sure there's plenty more plays that more closely resemble today's hit, but when I think of a totally unnecessary hit with a terrible result, I think of Sapp's bitch-ass.

aturnis
09-16-2012, 10:15 PM
What is your problem noob

I think his problem is that he is absolutely right and you just don't want to hear it...

Joe Seahawk
09-16-2012, 10:18 PM
You don't have to tell me. I'm anti-RR.

This play, I didn't know what to think. Is it cheap and therefore should be flagged? Yes, IMO.

However, I didn't know if the hit can be defined as illegal.

The Sapp play was years ago so hit were way less scrutinized. Unlike this play though, Sapp wasn't anywhere near the football and took a cheap-shot for zero reason. He then defended it by repeatedly saying, "It was legal." Sapp is a POS IMO. I'm sure there's plenty more plays that more closely resemble today's hit, but when I think of a totally unnecessary hit with a terrible result, I think of Sapp's bitch-ass.

So, you think this block should be a 15 yard penalty and negate a key first down? Good block, sorry Lee he didn't see it coming, at least he didn't get hurt..

WV
09-16-2012, 10:19 PM
Take your small problems and leave...

mnchiefsguy
09-16-2012, 10:20 PM
He led with his helmet....I would say probably a "legal" hit in terms of no flag...but the player can expect to write a nice check to NFL Charities.

Dave Lane
09-16-2012, 10:21 PM
Having been on the receiving end of that play so gonna go with no. Actually other than maybe lowering the head it seems fine.

Joe Seahawk
09-16-2012, 10:21 PM
Grumpy bastards today..

G'night

Douche Baggins
09-16-2012, 10:22 PM
He fucking obliterated a Dallas Cowboy.

Legal.

Dallas Chief
09-16-2012, 10:22 PM
It wasn't flagged.

Reminds me when Sapp blew that guy up basically ending his career.

It was a shitty shot by Sapp on Chad Clifton. Didn't end his career though. He went on to win a ring with the Packers in 2011. Always hated Sapp after that, not that I needed any help in that regard.

Gadzooks
09-16-2012, 10:31 PM
In super slow-mo, he leads with his helmet into the opponent’s neck.
I would deem that to be illegal; however I don’t have the current version of the NFL rule book handy.

munkey
09-16-2012, 10:31 PM
great block....wasn't helmet to helmet...totally legal...it's football...JFC

Amnorix
09-16-2012, 10:32 PM
No, it's not. Golden Tate launches himself (no no #1) and is leading with his helmet (#2) and struck him in the neck/head area (#3) against what was basically a defenseless player.



http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/03/28/nfl-rule-changes-for-2012/

He's going to be fined.


This. It's blatantly illegal. It's not even remotely freaking CLOSE to legal.

KChiefer
09-16-2012, 10:35 PM
It was a shitty shot by Sapp on Chad Clifton. Didn't end his career though. He went on to win a ring with the Packers in 2011. Always hated Sapp after that, not that I needed any help in that regard.

Thanks. Glad he bounced back.

Rain Man
09-16-2012, 10:35 PM
Russell Wilson is going to get some defensive players killed if he keeps this up.

(Shrug.) I wouldn't say it's illegal.

KChiefer
09-16-2012, 10:36 PM
And you guys are right, it wasn't helmet to helmet. It was helmet to facemask.

Amnorix
09-16-2012, 10:36 PM
So, you think this block should be a 15 yard penalty and negate a key first down? Good block, sorry Lee he didn't see it coming, at least he didn't get hurt..



Well, no, I mean if it's an important play that really helped the Seahawks out then the launching and leading with the helmet on a defenseless receiver all becomes totally legal...


Dude, it's seriously not even close. I don't care if the dumbass refs called it or not, it's clearly illegal. In 1975 it was legal, I'm sure, maybe even in 1995, but here in 2012 it ain't.

munkey
09-16-2012, 10:39 PM
This. It's blatantly illegal. It's not even remotely freaking CLOSE to legal.

6. PASSED: Expanding the defenseless player rule to protect defensive players on crackback blocks, making it illegal to hit them in the head or neck area.

He hit him in the chest...just because his head goes back doesn't mean he was hit in the neck or head...it's legal...

aturnis
09-16-2012, 10:39 PM
great block....wasn't helmet to helmet...totally legal...it's football...JFC

That's the thing, all of your "let 'em play" opinions don't matter. According to the rules, it's an illegal hit.

Not picking on you specifically munkey. Yours was just the most recent, "legal in my opinion, let' em play" post...

Joe Seahawk
09-16-2012, 10:40 PM
Well, no, I mean if it's an important play that really helped the Seahawks out then the launching and leading with the helmet on a defenseless receiver all becomes totally legal...


Dude, it's seriously not even close. I don't care if the dumbass refs called it or not, it's clearly illegal. In 1975 it was legal, I'm sure, maybe even in 1995, but here in 2012 it ain't.

Patriots will be here in a couple weeks..:drool:

munkey
09-16-2012, 10:42 PM
in fact he leads with his left shoulder pad....look closely...legal...sorry

KChiefer
09-16-2012, 10:45 PM
in fact he leads with his left shoulder pad....look closely...legal...sorry

AND his head. There's a reason his helmet instantly wants to go see what the SEA cheerleaders are doing and the only thing that stops it is his chinstrap.

munkey
09-16-2012, 10:45 PM
That's the thing, all of your "let 'em play" opinions don't matter. According to the rules, it's an illegal hit.

Not picking on you specifically munkey. Yours was just the most recent, "legal in my opinion, let' em play" post...


Well...what's funny IMO is the cowboys were flagged on that play for a nit picky hit out of bounds...the block was so good that no one payed attention to player that was flagged.

aturnis
09-16-2012, 10:45 PM
6. PASSED: Expanding the defenseless player rule to protect defensive players on crackback blocks, making it illegal to hit them in the head or neck area.

He hit him in the chest...just because his head goes back doesn't mean he was hit in the neck or head...it's legal...

He lead with the crown of his helmet, and launched himself into a defenseless player. The back of his helmet hits the facemask of the other player.

BryanBusby
09-16-2012, 10:46 PM
in fact he leads with his left shoulder pad....look closely...legal...sorry
He got hit in the neck area with Tates helmet. I saw it again and again and again.

You must be watching a different clip.

munkey
09-16-2012, 10:48 PM
AND his head. There's a reason his helmet instantly wants to go see what the SEA cheerleaders are doing and the only thing that stops it is his chinstrap.

He lead with his shoulder...it's professional football...lets just take off the pads and use flags from now on...JFC...

Iowanian
09-16-2012, 10:49 PM
Looks to me like a helmet directly to the chin.

I think it's the definition of helmet to helmet.

BryanBusby
09-16-2012, 10:49 PM
He lead with his shoulder...it's professional football...lets just take off the pads and use flags from now on...JFC...
haha yeah just put them in skirts! So what if they're killing themselves and being spoonfed by the age of 40...fucking pussies!

NJChiefsFan
09-16-2012, 10:50 PM
He lead with his shoulder...it's professional football...lets just take off the pads and use flags from now on...JFC...

What the rule is and what it should be are two different arguments.

munkey
09-16-2012, 10:53 PM
He got hit in the neck area with Tates helmet. I saw it again and again and again.

You must be watching a different clip.

they are both running full speed...are you guys fucking kidding me? he leads with his shoulder..to say he meant to lead with the crown of his helmet is just stupid...

BryanBusby
09-16-2012, 10:56 PM
they are both running full speed...are you guys fucking kidding me? he leads with his shoulder..to say he meant to lead with the crown of his helmet is just stupid...
It doesn't fucking matter if he meant to or not, it happened. We're not calling him James Harrison here, it was just an illegal hit.

aturnis
09-16-2012, 10:59 PM
Whether he hit him helmet to helmet or not is irrelevant anyway...

"The foul is forcibly hitting the defenseless player's head or neck area with the helmet, facemask, or shoulder, regardless of whether the defensive player also uses his arms to tackle the defenseless player by encircling or grasping him; and lowering the head and making forcible contact with the top/crown or forehead 'hairline' parts of the helmet against any part of the defenseless player's body."

munkey
09-16-2012, 11:03 PM
Whether he hit him helmet to helmet or not is irrelevant anyway...

I don't care...It was a cowboy...it was awesome...fuck the rules...:)

Joe Seahawk
09-16-2012, 11:08 PM
Whether he hit him helmet to helmet or not is irrelevant anyway...

A linebacker in pursuit is not a defenseless player. JFC please read the rules on the definition of a "defenseless" player.

BryanBusby
09-16-2012, 11:15 PM
A linebacker in pursuit is not a defenseless player. JFC please read the rules on the definition of a "defenseless" player.



The hit on Lee is an illegal blindside block. Lee is considered defenseless, which means you can't lower your head & hit in head/neck area.
Mike Pereira (@MikePereira) September 16, 2012



Mike Pereira seems to disagree with you.

BIG_DADDY
09-16-2012, 11:18 PM
Mike Pereira seems to disagree with you.

Well Mike is a fucking idiot. That is a legitimate block.

Joe Seahawk
09-16-2012, 11:21 PM
Mike Pereira seems to disagree with you.

He usually does. What was Tate supposed to do? gently block him? Ridiculous.. IMO

listopencil
09-16-2012, 11:21 PM
I think it's good.. thoughts?

http://cjzero.com/gifs/TateDecleatsLee.gif

Do illegal hit rules apply to blocks?

BIG_DADDY
09-16-2012, 11:21 PM
Looks to me like a helmet directly to the chin.

I think it's the definition of helmet to helmet.

No, his helmet never touched his chin it just looks like it because of the way his head snaps back from the whiplash of being hit in the upper chest.

morphius
09-16-2012, 11:22 PM
A linebacker in pursuit is not a defenseless player. JFC please read the rules on the definition of a "defenseless" player.
It is a new rule this year. If Tate would have kept his helmet from hitting the other guy in the chin, then it would have been legal. I still enjoyed watching it, but I'm pretty sure that was what the new rule was made to try to stop.

KChiefer
09-16-2012, 11:24 PM
Well Mike is a ****ing idiot.

I typically agree with this, because he always seems to weasel his reasoning into, "whatever the refs rule is correct." But here, he's actually pointing out a missed call. Progress!

Tombstone RJ
09-16-2012, 11:29 PM
I think it's good.. thoughts?

http://cjzero.com/gifs/TateDecleatsLee.gif

good lord that is just brutal.

BryanBusby
09-16-2012, 11:30 PM
He usually does. What was Tate supposed to do? gently block him? Ridiculous.. IMO
Push him down, do what he did without launching himself upward, not lead with his head?

I typically agree with this, because he always seems to weasel his reasoning into, "whatever the refs rule is correct." But here, he's actually pointing out a missed call. Progress!
He's actually been rather critical about the refs since he left his position in the NFL.

Joe Seahawk
09-16-2012, 11:34 PM
FWIW there is no helmet to helmet contact here. I have looked at it very closely on a 60'

listopencil
09-16-2012, 11:39 PM
FWIW there is no helmet to helmet contact here. I have looked at it very closely on a 60'

Is it legal to spear people?

BIG_DADDY
09-16-2012, 11:41 PM
Is it legal to spear people?

What, you never played smear the queer?

Joe Seahawk
09-16-2012, 11:59 PM
Is it legal to spear people?

No

dmahurin
09-17-2012, 12:32 AM
It is a new rule this year. If Tate would have kept his helmet from hitting the other guy in the chin, then it would have been legal. I still enjoyed watching it, but I'm pretty sure that was what the new rule was made to try to stop.

How do you use your shoulder without your helmet hitting anything? He led with the shoulder and the helmet contact was unintentional.

rad
09-17-2012, 05:18 AM
You're awfully retarded and blind if you think his feet weren't leaving the ground, it was in the chest and Lee was aware it was coming.

Tates feet are on the ground at the moment of contact.

Amnorix
09-17-2012, 06:38 AM
No, his helmet never touched his chin it just looks like it because of the way his head snaps back from the whiplash of being hit in the upper chest.



:spock:


Seriously? Are you watching the same video?

Amnorix
09-17-2012, 06:39 AM
Tates feet are on the ground at the moment of contact.


I dont' think launching means you need to be in mid-air at the time you hit the guy. He launches into the guy, as proven by the fact that his feet are both off the ground a half-second, at most, after he hits the guy.



EDIT: Apparently this is not launching after all. To be launching you must leave your feet before contact.

INDIANAPOLIS, Indiana -- NFL owners have approved rules amendments for player safety that include eliminating a player launching himself into a defenseless opponent.
The 32 owners have voted unanimously to enhance the protection of defenseless players. Anyone who leaves both feet before contact to spring forward and upward into an opponent and delivers a blow to the helmet with any part of his helmet will draw a 15-yard penalty.
Such tackles also will be subject to fines.
The definition of a defenseless receiver has been extended. Now, a receiver who has not had time to protect himself or has not clearly become a runner even if both feet are on the ground is considered defenseless.

http://www.cleveland.com/ohio-sports-blog/index.ssf/2011/05/nfl_owners_approve_player_safe.html

So it's not launching, but it is a head/neck hit (chin really) hit on a defenseless player, so it's still illegal and he should still expect to find a nice note from the NFL delivered to his doorstop.

Amnorix
09-17-2012, 06:42 AM
FWIW there is no helmet to helmet contact here. I have looked at it very closely on a 60'


So you seriously think he's not going to get $10,000 or whatever note from the NFL this week? I'd be very surprised if he didn't.

tooge
09-17-2012, 07:01 AM
not supposed to lead with your helmet, and sort of caught him under the chin. It is borderline illegal, but the bigger question is was it needed? He just needed to get in that guys way to take him out of the play, and instead, he went for a kill shot. Not cool.

Chiefnj2
09-17-2012, 07:44 AM
Tate should have just taken out his knees. That way it would be legal.

LETS GO SEAHAWKS

-King-
09-17-2012, 08:38 AM
That's a good block IMO.
Posted via Mobile Device

scho63
09-17-2012, 08:40 AM
look like he launched with his head to me, thats a foul i think!

:thumb:

Using your helmet when launching into an opponent is a penalty

-King-
09-17-2012, 08:41 AM
not supposed to lead with your helmet, and sort of caught him under the chin. It is borderline illegal, but the bigger question is was it needed? He just needed to get in that guys way to take him out of the play, and instead, he went for a kill shot. Not cool.99% of big hits aren't NEEDED. Football has gotten so pussified that players cant even hit each other if they don't "need " to. Hilarious.
Posted via Mobile Device

-King-
09-17-2012, 08:48 AM
No, it's not. Golden Tate launches himself (no no #1) and is leading with his helmet (#2) and struck him in the neck/head area (#3) against what was basically a defenseless player.

There was no launch. Tate still had both feet on the ground when he hit him. It's not till after the hit that his feet leave the ground. And he hit him in the chest.
Posted via Mobile Device

ElGringo
09-17-2012, 09:52 AM
Not sure what the rule is, but do remember hearing the announcers say yesterday that the league is trying to crack down on DB's leading with their helmet.

Guru
09-17-2012, 09:53 AM
You can't lead with your helmet like that.

highBOLTage
09-17-2012, 10:19 AM
Defenseless player? LMAO
How about looking where you are running? keeping your head on a swivel? there is your defense against this.

gblowfish
09-17-2012, 10:21 AM
Clean block, hit him below the chin. Great block, actually. That's what football is.

beach tribe
09-17-2012, 10:56 AM
I love it, but that helmet to chin thing is pretty dangerous. Probably the worst hit you can put on a guy. That said, it was beautiful

Joe Seahawk
09-17-2012, 01:25 PM
looks legal to me..

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/si/2012/writers/don_banks/09/16/cowboys-seahawks/golden-tate.jpg

royr17
09-20-2012, 04:14 AM
Looked like a legal block to me but appearently the NFL didnt see it that way, as they have fined Golden Tate 21K for that block.

acesn8s
09-20-2012, 04:23 AM
It doesn't surprise me. The guy put his helmet on the chin strap of another player with the intent to send a message.

royr17
09-20-2012, 04:28 AM
It doesn't surprise me. The guy put his helmet on the chin strap of another player with the intent to send a message.

Well everybody is entitled to their own opinion, but the way I see it, he was just trying to make a block for his QB. The NFL has becomed too protective of the players, just let them play the game.

acesn8s
09-20-2012, 04:32 AM
The guy decleated him and gave him a good boxers buzz, not because he was trying to spring his QB but because he saw an opportunity to deliver the same kind of hit that he receives routinely.

Mojo Jojo
09-20-2012, 05:22 AM
Head down to make a block trow a flag

Amnorix
09-20-2012, 06:40 AM
Looked like a legal block to me but appearently the NFL didnt see it that way, as they have fined Golden Tate 21K for that block.



This isn't 1975. That block ain't legal, no matter how badly you might want it to be.

-King-
09-20-2012, 08:14 AM
The guy decleated him and gave him a good boxers buzz, not because he was trying to spring his QB but because he saw an opportunity to deliver the same kind of hit that he receives routinely.

1) Yes he was trying to spring his QB. At first he was running a route, but changed into a blocker when Russell started running. At that point, he had less than a second to make the block.

2) And what if he was trying to send a message? Isn't that the point of ALL big hits? It's why players have to keep their heads on a swivel.

notorious
09-20-2012, 08:30 AM
I admit, I am giggling like a schoolgirl after watching that hit.

BigCatDaddy
09-20-2012, 08:32 AM
looks legal to me..

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/si/2012/writers/don_banks/09/16/cowboys-seahawks/golden-tate.jpg

Leading with the head would be flagged every time if the real refs were back. Bad no call.

Phobia
09-20-2012, 09:48 AM
looks legal to me..

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/si/2012/writers/don_banks/09/16/cowboys-seahawks/golden-tate.jpg

Those shoes should be illegal.

DJ's left nut
09-20-2012, 09:52 AM
Leading with the head would be flagged every time if the real refs were back. Bad no call.

But he didn't 'lead' with his head. He came at an angle and put his head across the guys body. At impact, his shoulder and Lee's chest compressed and Lee's body came into Tate's head. He didn't hit Lee in the chin, Lee's chin snapped down at impact into the top of Tate's dome.

I still think it was a legal hit. Hard as a MFer and probably unnecessary, but the head went across the body and the shoulder hit first. That's not only legal, it's damn near textbook.

Chiefnj2
09-20-2012, 09:54 AM
For reference, the rules prohibit contact against a defenseless player when it includes "forcibly hitting the defenseless player's head or neck area with the helmet, facemask, forearm, or shoulder, regardless of whether the defensive player also uses his arms to tackle the defenseless player by encircling or graspoing him; or lowering the head and making forcible contact with the top-crown or forehead/hairline parts of the helmet against any part of the defenseless player's body."

He lowered his head and made forcible contact with the top-crown of the helmet.

I don't like the rule, but it is what it is.

BigCatDaddy
09-20-2012, 09:56 AM
But he didn't 'lead' with his head. He came at an angle and put his head across the guys body. At impact, his shoulder and Lee's chest compressed and Lee's body came into Tate's head. He didn't hit Lee in the chin, Lee's chin snapped down at impact into the top of Tate's dome.

I still think it was a legal hit. Hard as a MFer and probably unnecessary, but the head went across the body and the shoulder hit first. That's not only legal, it's damn near textbook.

Looks like the crown on the helmet are dug right into the guys chest. In this day and age of the NFL that's a flag and fine nearly every time. He should have just angled himself for a nice shoulder to shoulder decleater and there would have been a problem.

Phobia
09-20-2012, 10:00 AM
I don't like the rule, but it is what it is.

Yeah. This for me. The play would be on a NFL Films video up until 2-3 years ago and now the guy gets fined. It's a shame but I don't see how it's legal given current rules.

Chiefnj2
09-20-2012, 10:09 AM
I don't have a problem with a rule prohibitting striking with the crown of a helmet. You don't want kids watching the game highlights thinking it is good to lower your head like that. Neck injuries waiting to happen.

The "hairline" of the helmet, I'm not sure I agree with.

BryanBusby
09-20-2012, 12:55 PM
But he didn't 'lead' with his head. He came at an angle and put his head across the guys body. At impact, his shoulder and Lee's chest compressed and Lee's body came into Tate's head. He didn't hit Lee in the chin, Lee's chin snapped down at impact into the top of Tate's dome.

I still think it was a legal hit. Hard as a MFer and probably unnecessary, but the head went across the body and the shoulder hit first. That's not only legal, it's damn near textbook.
He did and no, for the last time, it's not legal jfc

It was basically the same way Hines Ward managed to break Keith Rivers jaw. Seahawk fans are starting to become as insufferable as Steelers fans.

-King-
09-20-2012, 01:03 PM
He did and no, for the last time, it's not legal jfc

It was basically the same way Hines Ward managed to break Keith Rivers jaw. Seahawk fans are starting to become as insufferable as Steelers fans.

How did he lead with his head? Because he got low to get leverage?


BTW...there was nothing wrong with the Hines Ward block either.

Demonpenz
09-20-2012, 01:14 PM
They should make it so you have have your feet set to make a block in that position. Like setting a pick

Frosty
09-20-2012, 01:25 PM
looks legal to me..

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/si/2012/writers/don_banks/09/16/cowboys-seahawks/golden-tate.jpg

Looks to me like the crown of his helmet is in Lee's armpit, not chin or neck area. Also, at that angle, his shoulder would have hit first.


From now on, WRs should just dive at the defender's knees, since that's legal and all. :shake:

BigCatDaddy
09-20-2012, 01:32 PM
Looks to me like the crown of his helmet is in Lee's armpit, not chin or neck area. Also, at that angle, his shoulder would have hit first.


From now on, WRs should just dive at the defender's knees, since that's legal and all. :shake:

Or keep your head up and see what you are blocking :shrug:

-King-
09-20-2012, 01:38 PM
Or keep your head up and see what you are blocking :shrug:

He saw what he was blocking perfectly. He just turned his head right before impact. The gif shows that perfectly.

DJ's left nut
09-20-2012, 01:53 PM
He did and no, for the last time, it's not legal jfc

It was basically the same way Hines Ward managed to break Keith Rivers jaw. Seahawk fans are starting to become as insufferable as Steelers fans.

Keep on saying it, but the pictures don't lie.

His crown is clearly across Lee's body. And look at Lee's head in relation to his back, it's clearly being driven forward into the back of Tate's helmet, you can see by the angle in his neck. If the hit were into his jaw, his head wouldn't be coming forward.

That's how they teach you to hit. His head's across the body, his back is straight and he got low position. The damn hit is textbook. It isn't the same way Ward broke Rivers jaw, Ward didn't get across Rivers body at all, he just piled into his facemask.

Say it louder, say it with more pejoratives - I really don't give a shit. You'll never convince me that was a dirty hit. That's how you're taught to hit a guy from the time you're 12 years old. It's the safest way (for the hitter) to lay a load. To get much lower than that would require him to arch his back and all kinds of other unnatural shit that could get him hurt pretty badly.

He was the hammer, Lee was the nail. Next time Lee will keep his head on a swivel and when that hit is coming he'll make sure to get his pads around.

DJ's left nut
09-20-2012, 02:06 PM
He saw what he was blocking perfectly. He just turned his head right before impact. The gif shows that perfectly.

Exactly right - he absolutely saw what he was blocking and turned his body across Lee's chest right at impact.

The only possible complaint is that he got up 3 or 4 inches too high, but based on the fact that Lee's head went forward at impact before snapping backwards, I don't believe that's the case either. It was the compression and recoil that snapped him down into Tate's helmet and then flipped his head back as he was driven away.

Frosty
09-20-2012, 02:07 PM
His crown is clearly across Lee's body. And look at Lee's head in relation to his back, it's clearly being driven forward into the back of Tate's helmet, you can see by the angle in his neck. If the hit were into his jaw, his head wouldn't be coming forward.

Yeah, there's been some real physics fail going on. The only way Lee's head and neck can go forward like that (rotating around the axis of his shoulders) is if the force of the hit was below his shoulders. A shot to the neck or head would have his head behind his body, as mentioned.

Chiefnj2
09-20-2012, 02:23 PM
Yeah, there's been some real physics fail going on. The only way Lee's head and neck can go forward like that (rotating around the axis of his shoulders) is if the force of the hit was below his shoulders. A shot to the neck or head would have his head behind his body, as mentioned.

The problem isn't WHERE he was hit. You can't initiate contact with a defenseless player (now includes defense on INTs) with the crown or hairline portion of your helmet to ANY part of their body.

DJ's left nut
09-20-2012, 02:25 PM
The problem isn't WHERE he was hit. You can't initiate contact with a defenseless player (now includes defense on INTs) with the crown or hairline portion of your helmet to ANY part of their body.

He didn't.

He initiated it with his shoulder. Lee's body compressed into the helmet.

Look at how deep into Lee's chest he is there. He blew the poor bastard up and he folded like a ragdoll into Tate's head.

Next time he'll keep his head up.

BigCatDaddy
09-20-2012, 02:26 PM
He didn't.

He initiated it with his shoulder. Lee's body compressed into the helmet.

Look at how deep into Lee's chest he is there. He blew the poor bastard up and he folded like a ragdoll into Tate's head.

Next time he'll keep his head up.

He may have, but the GIFS and photos only show the crown of the helmet in his chest. The NFL said illegal so I'll go with that since it's their rules.

DJ's left nut
09-20-2012, 02:34 PM
He may have, but the GIFS and photos only show the crown of the helmet in his chest. The NFL said illegal so I'll go with that since it's their rules.

The NFL's treatment of fines w/r/t dangerous hits has been so hypocritical and uneven to date that I'm willing to accept them levying a fine as ample evidence that the hit was clean. Fuck Goodell and his fines.

If you hit someone hard, it's a fine in Goodell's NFL. He has to do something to hold back the tide of pending lawsuits.

Frosty
09-20-2012, 02:57 PM
If you hit someone hard, it's a fine in Goodell's NFL. He has to do something to hold back the tide of pending lawsuits.

Exactly. It helps that it was against one of the NFL's golden teams, too.


Also, afaik, Lee was back in the game after he caught his breath and wasn't injured.

Valiant
09-20-2012, 03:00 PM
AND his head. There's a reason his helmet instantly wants to go see what the SEA cheerleaders are doing and the only thing that stops it is his chinstrap.

Yeah other then arm tackles and hitting someone with the side of your body you will always be leading with your head, you knowthat thing inbetween when you lead with soulders.

This I why the nfl is dumb. They rule you can't touch the head? Fine, but then allow O players to snap back defensive players heads with stiff arms. Also O players can duck down causing half the h2h flags themselves.

Then take the brady rule, player blocked into the back that's only play is to dive at the qbs legs. Penalty. But it is ok to chop/crack down unsuspecting D players? Rules piss me off with all the changes.

Garcia Bronco
09-20-2012, 03:11 PM
He led with his left shoulder. The other player IMO was not defenssless. He was looking...so he got blasted. That's football

TEX
09-20-2012, 04:07 PM
Totally legal IMO.

Pawnmower
09-20-2012, 04:36 PM
Looks like the hit was LED by the helmet & hit up under the chin...thats a No-No...

IMO

Pawnmower
09-20-2012, 04:41 PM
He didn't.

He initiated it with his shoulder. Lee's body compressed into the helmet.


Just looking at this gif briefly, that isn't what I see...they cant judge by INTENTION they can only judge by RESULT.

The result appears to be his head initiates the contact....AT least from what I can see..AND he goes up too high (which IS part of the reason this is illegal....It is illegal to go too low on some blocks, and now it is illegal to go up high as well)

source:

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/03/28/nfl-expands-defenseless-player-rule-to-crackback-blocks/

BryanBusby
09-20-2012, 05:11 PM
Keep on saying it, but the pictures don't lie.

His crown is clearly across Lee's body. And look at Lee's head in relation to his back, it's clearly being driven forward into the back of Tate's helmet, you can see by the angle in his neck. If the hit were into his jaw, his head wouldn't be coming forward.

That's how they teach you to hit. His head's across the body, his back is straight and he got low position. The damn hit is textbook. It isn't the same way Ward broke Rivers jaw, Ward didn't get across Rivers body at all, he just piled into his facemask.

Say it louder, say it with more pejoratives - I really don't give a shit. You'll never convince me that was a dirty hit. That's how you're taught to hit a guy from the time you're 12 years old. It's the safest way (for the hitter) to lay a load. To get much lower than that would require him to arch his back and all kinds of other unnatural shit that could get him hurt pretty badly.

He was the hammer, Lee was the nail. Next time Lee will keep his head on a swivel and when that hit is coming he'll make sure to get his pads around.
Your coaches were awful. Was never taught to lead with the head, but keep writing lengthy posts about it brah.

3rd&48ers
09-20-2012, 06:16 PM
That was helmet to chest... May have gotten a piece of his chin but you gotta pay attention out there

DJ's left nut
09-20-2012, 06:49 PM
Your coaches were awful. Was never taught to lead with the head, but keep writing lengthy posts about it brah.

He didn't lead with his head, brah.

But keep ignoring what the pictures clearly show.

Chiefnj2
09-20-2012, 07:46 PM
He didn't lead with his head, brah.

But keep ignoring what the pictures clearly show.

He 100% leads with his head.

DJ's left nut
09-20-2012, 07:49 PM
He 100% leads with his head.

Except that his shoulder hits first.

BCD
09-20-2012, 07:52 PM
He 100% leads with his head.

The still suggests otherwise.

BryanBusby
09-20-2012, 07:55 PM
He didn't lead with his head, brah.

But keep ignoring what the pictures clearly show.

You don't even know what you are seeing.

-King-
09-20-2012, 08:00 PM
You don't even know what you are seeing.

If he was leading with his head...wouldn't his head snap back as soon as he made contact? His head doesn't snap at all.

listopencil
09-20-2012, 08:49 PM
If he was leading with his head...wouldn't his head snap back as soon as he made contact? His head doesn't snap at all.

Look again. The WR's head snapped down on impact. He lead with the top of his head. It's an illegal block.

BigCatDaddy
09-21-2012, 07:22 AM
I don't see one GIF of photo showing the left shoulder even making contact. WTF?

otherstar
09-21-2012, 08:13 AM
I don't see one GIF of photo showing the left shoulder even making contact. WTF?

That's because it did NOT make contact. The Seahag's player hit the Cowpuke player straight in the chest with his helmet, THEN pushed him down with his arms to make it look like he hit him with his shoulders.