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Direckshun
09-17-2012, 09:13 AM
A democratic nation that is confident in itself, proud of itself, and secure in and of itself, should not be above admitting the things it has done wrong.

That is something dictatorships do, not democracies do.

America is a blessed nation and has similarly blessed our lives generously, those of us fortunate enough to do things like participate on this forum.

But that doesn't black out the vast amount of mistaken policies and unjust actions we've taken in our existence. To pretend these things haven't happened, to deny they've ever existed, it's just something people with small dicks and little integrity do.

There's a difference between patriotism and jingoism. And if you're entrenched in the idea that America can either do no wrong, or should never apologize if it does, then you're on the wrong side of that distinction.

http://andrewsullivan.thedailybeast.com/2012/09/george-w-bush-and-apology.html

George W. Bush And Apology
Andrew Sullivan
16 Sep 2012 09:05 PM

Obama has never apologized for America, merely at times acknowledged its mistakes (like torturing prisoners against clear prohibitions in domestic and international law) alongside its strengths (like being one of the the most stable and benign democracies in history). I don't see this acknowledgment of fallibility and error over time as some kind of craven weakness, but actually the kind of strength that a successful, self-confident democracy can deploy when necessary. Democracies can admit when they have screwed up; dictatorships cannot. I regard that as a strength. Romney for some reason regards it as a weakness.

But even George W. Bush differed from Romney on this. And so it was that after some US troops were found using the Koran for target practice, George W. Bush apologized (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/05/20/bush-apologizes-to-iraqi_n_102643.html) to the prime minister of Iraq:

"He apologized for that in the sense that he said that we take it very seriously," White House press secretary Dana Perino said. "We are concerned about the reaction. We wanted them to know that the president knew that this was wrong."

Bush apologized (http://www.goethe-gymnasium.de/schuelerseiten/LK12/Manzanar/Apology/APOLOGY.HTM) for Japanese-American internment (sorry, Michelle Malkin):

http://dailydish.typepad.com/.a/6a00d83451c45669e2017c31e86157970b-550wi

Here he is in Africa (http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-202_162-562283.html) on the legacy of slavery:

"Human beings delivered, sorted, weighed, branded with marks of commercial enterprises and loaded as cargo on a voyage without return," Mr. Bush said. "One of the largest migrations in history was also one of the greatest crimes of history." The president recited a litany of Africans and African Americans who made contributions to American society, from the arts to politics: abolitionist Frederick Douglass, slave-poet Phillis Wheatley and Martin Luther King Jr.

"The stolen sons and daughters of Africa helped to awaken the conscience of America," he said. Mr. Bush did not apologize for slavery but noted Americans throughout history "clearly saw this sin and called it by name."

Here is the statement (http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/09/12/us/politics/libya-statements.html) that Mitt Romney called "disgraceful", issued before a mob attacked the Benghazi consulate:

The Embassy of the United States in Cairo condemns the continuing efforts by misguided individuals to hurt the religious feelings of Muslims – as we condemn efforts to offend believers of all religions. Today, the 11th anniversary of the September 11, 2001, terrorist attacks on the United States, Americans are honoring our patriots and those who serve our nation as the fitting response to the enemies of democracy. Respect for religious beliefs is a cornerstone of American democracy. We firmly reject the actions by those who abuse the universal right of free speech to hurt the religious beliefs of others.

The only thing we learned last week is that Romney and Netanyahu know they are losing this race so far and are desperate to use anything to turn it into a polarizing, global religious conflict where they think they can win. That's why Romney did this week what no president should ever do: see a brushfire of anti-Americanism and pour some more gasoline on it. And why Netanyahu is standing by with a few more barrels if necessary.

Lightrise
09-17-2012, 09:38 AM
Yeah, Romney's whole apology gig is laughable. I don't understand what on earth he thinks he gets from that, other than a shadowy way of stoking racism. It's just hard to do that given his history of bullying and running with scissors in college on that haircut episode, and then apologizing for it.

HonestChieffan
09-17-2012, 09:46 AM
Watch Obama and his UN Cronies piss all over themselves cause the muslims have a butthurt. It will be shameful.

Garcia Bronco
09-17-2012, 12:10 PM
So...you're comparing an internet movie...not even made by an American of birth to Japanesse internment? WTF is wrong with people? I think we should start Muslim Internment until their religion tones it down.

Direckshun
09-17-2012, 12:15 PM
So...you're comparing an internet movie...not even made by an American of birth to Japanesse internment?

Swing and a miss.

LiveSteam
09-17-2012, 12:17 PM
I think we should start Muslim Internment until their religion tones it down.

I apologize to all Muslims for this post. :evil:

Brock
09-17-2012, 12:24 PM
It is disgraceful to apologize to religious nuts because somebody exercised free speech and made fun of them, particularly when you're only doing it because they're threatening you.

Lightrise
09-17-2012, 12:38 PM
It is disgraceful to apologize to religious nuts because somebody exercised free speech and made fun of them, particularly when you're only doing it because they're threatening you.

What is godless is deliberately seeking to inflame people, to dishonor God through disobedience and to attempt to be oppressive and consumed by greed instead of choosing grace and working to make disciples. However, there will always be tiny minds that miss the point.

LiveSteam
09-17-2012, 12:42 PM
What is godless is deliberately seeking to inflame people, to dishonor God through disobedience and to attempt to be oppressive and consumed by greed instead of choosing grace and working to make disciples. However, there will always be tiny minds that miss the point.

LMAOLMAO

Brock
09-17-2012, 12:45 PM
What is godless is deliberately seeking to inflame people, to dishonor God through disobedience and to attempt to be oppressive and consumed by greed instead of choosing grace and working to make disciples. However, there will always be tiny minds that miss the point.

We don't live in a theocracy, so your point is pretty irrelevant.

Bowser
09-17-2012, 12:47 PM
It is disgraceful to apologize to religious nuts because somebody exercised free speech and made fun of them, particularly when you're only doing it because they're threatening you.

Yep

patteeu
09-17-2012, 01:05 PM
It turns out that "peace through weakness" wasn't a good idea afterall.

Lightrise
09-17-2012, 01:12 PM
We don't live in a theocracy, so your point is pretty irrelevant.

The point is that it isn't about free speech...LMAO

Brock
09-17-2012, 01:14 PM
The point is that it isn't about free speech...LMAO

It is about free speech and the butthurt it causes in certain people.

Direckshun
09-17-2012, 01:19 PM
It is disgraceful to apologize to religious nuts because somebody exercised free speech and made fun of them, particularly when you're only doing it because they're threatening you.

Is it disgraceful to disown an (alledgely) hateful video that insults a culture you're trying to diplomatically relate to?

qabbaan
09-17-2012, 01:48 PM
It's all a part of his Chamberlainian appeasement foreign policy.

Apologize for things that were not wrong in the first place. Genuflect before nations whose interests conflict with our own. Place their priorities even with or above our own. Derelict the duty of his position to do what is in our national interest, rather than try to create a utopia for every mud hole and sandtrap on earth. Diminish the US's position as leader and stabilizer in favor of being just one vote of 193 in the UN.

Garcia Bronco
09-17-2012, 01:52 PM
Is it disgraceful to disown an (alledgely) hateful video that insults a culture you're trying to diplomatically relate to?

Your very existence insults their culture so WTF are you really talking about? We exercise free speech...that means I can make fun of your stupid culture all I want as long as I am not lying about facts.

Direckshun
09-17-2012, 01:56 PM
We exercise free speech...that means I can make fun of your stupid culture all I want as long as I am not lying about facts.

Nobody's disputing that, including the embassy.

And you didn't answer my question.

Brock
09-17-2012, 01:57 PM
Is it disgraceful to disown an (alledgely) hateful video that insults a culture you're trying to diplomatically relate to?

Are they standing outside your gates with machetes and gas cans?

Direckshun
09-17-2012, 01:59 PM
Are they standing outside your gates with machetes and gas cans?

Is this an answer to my question? Or are you just disputing the premise of the question.

Brock
09-17-2012, 02:05 PM
Is this an answer to my question? Or are you just disputing the premise of the question.

It is disgraceful to advocate the curbing of free speech on the basis if hurt feelings. Yes.

Baby Lee
09-17-2012, 02:09 PM
What does the statement Romney criticized have to do with apology. It's a condemnation and rejection of free expression not an apology.

vailpass
09-17-2012, 02:10 PM
Is it disgraceful to disown an (alledgely) hateful video that insults a culture you're trying to diplomatically relate to?

If our founders and those that built this country were as weak as you this country would never have been built.
God what a disgrace.

qabbaan
09-17-2012, 02:12 PM
As others have said, the apologies for the film are pathetic because it's giving them exactly what they want and encouraging it in the future. They attack and kill in response to offense, and we reward this behavior by bowing and begging their forgiveness. Groveling for the approval of people from whom you will never be anything but an infidel.

vailpass
09-17-2012, 02:18 PM
As others have said, the apologies for the film are pathetic because it's giving them exactly what they want and encouraging it in the future. They attack and kill in response to offense, and we reward this behavior by bowing and begging their forgiveness. Groveling for the approval of people from whom you will never be anything but an infidel.

It wasn't ever about the film.

In the days following the killing, the White House scrambled to pin blame on something or someone — anything but them. White House spokesman Jay Carney said the violence in Egypt and Libya was “in response to a video, a film we have judged to be reprehensible and disgusting,” referring to a YouTube video, “The Innocence of Muslims.”

Of course, the claim was preposterous. That Muslims would suddenly swarm U.S. embassies over a short film posted in July is absurd. Most likely to blame: the killing in a drone strike in Pakistan of Mohammed Hassan Qaed, a top al Qaeda leader from Libya. In fact, the Washington Guardian reported Saturday that less than 24 hours before the Libya attack, “U.S. intelligence learned of a new 42-minute video in which al Qaeda leader Ayman al-Zawahri implored Libyans to rise up against Americans” and avenge the death of another al Qaeda member.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...#ixzz26jxC6PvR

Garcia Bronco
09-17-2012, 02:20 PM
Nobody's disputing that, including the embassy.

And you didn't answer my question.

I answered it. I wouldn't say disgraceful...but having free speech means listening to shit you don't like.

qabbaan
09-17-2012, 02:34 PM
It wasn't ever about the film.

In the days following the killing, the White House scrambled to pin blame on something or someone — anything but them.

Well, that angle is plausible. The power vacuum that Obama installed in Libya and Egypt, two places where we can ill afford to give Al Queda another host nation like they once had in Afghanistan, is proving to be troublesome even sooner than we might have thought.

His foreign policy chickensssss are coming home to roost.

Direckshun
09-17-2012, 02:36 PM
I answered it. I wouldn't say disgraceful...but having free speech means listening to shit you don't like.

Having free speech also means the shit you say doesn't have to be owned by the government or its foreign embassies.

Direckshun
09-17-2012, 02:36 PM
It is disgraceful to advocate the curbing of free speech on the basis if hurt feelings. Yes.

The statement wasn't advocating curbing free speech, drama queen.

Direckshun
09-17-2012, 02:37 PM
What does the statement Romney criticized have to do with apology. It's a condemnation and rejection of free expression not an apology.

Swing and a miss.

It's a condemnation of insensitive expression.

It's not a rejection that this expression should be legally allowed.

Brock
09-17-2012, 02:37 PM
The statement wasn't advocating curbing free speech, drama queen.

Did it say something with the meaning of "People shouldn't say that."?

vailpass
09-17-2012, 02:39 PM
Well, that angle is plausible. The power vacuum that Obama installed in Libya and Egypt, two places where we can ill afford to give Al Queda another host nation like they once had in Afghanistan, is proving to be troublesome even sooner than we might have thought.

His foreign policy chickensssss are coming home to roost.

The other angle is the first protest was about us having one of their leaders in prison and them wanting him out.
It's pretty clear the crazy jew with the home movie is a scapegoat, one in a sadly long series of attempts to cover up the gaffs of the most unqualified occupant the White House has ever seen.

RedNeckRaider
09-17-2012, 02:48 PM
Swing and a miss.

It's a condemnation of insensitive expression.

It's not a rejection that this expression should be legally allowed.

The fact worthless shitbags are motivated to kill is the problem not insensitive expression. The same line of thinking was put in play with Salman Rushdie. People jump to defend these assholes pointing the blame at those who offend Muslims. The problem is not insensitive expression, it is people who need to be removed from the planet~

Baby Lee
09-17-2012, 02:56 PM
Swing and a miss.

It's a condemnation of insensitive expression.

It's not a rejection that this expression should be legally allowed.

The Embassy of the United States in Cairo condemns the continuing efforts by misguided individuals to hurt the religious feelings of Muslims – as we condemn efforts to offend believers of all religions. Today, the 11th anniversary of the September 11, 2001, terrorist attacks on the United States, Americans are honoring our patriots and those who serve our nation as the fitting response to the enemies of democracy. Respect for religious beliefs is a cornerstone of American democracy. We firmly reject the actions by those who abuse the universal right of free speech to hurt the religious beliefs of others.

Feel free to highlight the apology.

RedNeckRaider
09-17-2012, 04:00 PM
Feel free to highlight the apology.

I would have liked to have seen something along the lines of "we intend to kill those who attacked us and those who are like minded"

Direckshun
09-17-2012, 04:37 PM
Feel free to highlight the apology.

?

Did I not say it was a condemnation?

Direckshun
09-17-2012, 04:39 PM
I would have liked to have seen something along the lines of "we intend to kill those who attacked us and those who are like minded"

You would have liked to have seen that from an embassy.

RedNeckRaider
09-17-2012, 04:43 PM
You would have liked to have seen that from an embassy.

I would like to see our stance as firm and consistent. If you attack and kill Americans you will be hunted down and killed. Everywhere our flag is flown this should be the expected reaction from those who harm us or wish us harm~

RINGLEADER
09-17-2012, 04:43 PM
It's not just an act of contrition. In some places, and in many ways, that can be a good thing. But, like many things, our need to provide and receive forgiveness isn't something that's viewed in the way we view it in many parts of the world.

Baby Lee
09-17-2012, 04:51 PM
?

Did I not say it was a condemnation?

Ten mentions of apology, including the thread title, suggests you and Sully were trying to make a point about apologies and how wrong Romney is about them, particularly when the button on your contribution to the thread header is;

"if you're entrenched in the idea that America can either do no wrong, or should never apologize if it does, then you're on the wrong side of that distinction."

Dallas Chief
09-17-2012, 05:18 PM
A democratic nation that is confident in itself, proud of itself, and secure in and of itself, should not be above admitting the things it has done wrong.

That is something dictatorships do, not democracies do.

America is a blessed nation and has similarly blessed our lives generously, those of us fortunate enough to do things like participate on this forum.

But that doesn't black out the vast amount of mistaken policies and unjust actions we've taken in our existence. To pretend these things haven't happened, to deny they've ever existed, it's just something people with small dicks and little integrity do.

There's a difference between patriotism and jingoism. And if you're entrenched in the idea that America can either do no wrong, or should never apologize if it does, then you're on the wrong side of that distinction.

http://andrewsullivan.thedailybeast.com/2012/09/george-w-bush-and-apology.html

George W. Bush And Apology
Andrew Sullivan
16 Sep 2012 09:05 PM

Obama has never apologized for America, merely at times acknowledged its mistakes (like torturing prisoners against clear prohibitions in domestic and international law) alongside its strengths (like being one of the the most stable and benign democracies in history). I don't see this acknowledgment of fallibility and error over time as some kind of craven weakness, but actually the kind of strength that a successful, self-confident democracy can deploy when necessary. Democracies can admit when they have screwed up; dictatorships cannot. I regard that as a strength. Romney for some reason regards it as a weakness.

But even George W. Bush differed from Romney on this. And so it was that after some US troops were found using the Koran for target practice, George W. Bush apologized (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/05/20/bush-apologizes-to-iraqi_n_102643.html) to the prime minister of Iraq:



Bush apologized (http://www.goethe-gymnasium.de/schuelerseiten/LK12/Manzanar/Apology/APOLOGY.HTM) for Japanese-American internment (sorry, Michelle Malkin):

http://dailydish.typepad.com/.a/6a00d83451c45669e2017c31e86157970b-550wi

Here he is in Africa (http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-202_162-562283.html) on the legacy of slavery:



Here is the statement (http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/09/12/us/politics/libya-statements.html) that Mitt Romney called "disgraceful", issued before a mob attacked the Benghazi consulate:



The only thing we learned last week is that Romney and Netanyahu know they are losing this race so far and are desperate to use anything to turn it into a polarizing, global religious conflict where they think they can win. That's why Romney did this week what no president should ever do: see a brushfire of anti-Americanism and pour some more gasoline on it. And why Netanyahu is standing by with a few more barrels if necessary.

No wonder you usually only cut and paste shit the post it in here. None of what you say makes any GD sense. Random and rambling.

RedNeckRaider
09-17-2012, 05:18 PM
Ten mentions of apology, including the thread title, suggests you and Sully were trying to make a point about apologies and how wrong Romney is about them, particularly when the button on your contribution to the thread header is;

"if you're entrenched in the idea that America can either do no wrong, or should never apologize if it does, then you're on the wrong side of that distinction."

So Sully is lightrise? I can never keep track of name changes. Those who do it seem to be former banned posters or shitbags in general~

Baby Lee
09-17-2012, 05:44 PM
So Sully is lightrise? I can never keep track of name changes. Those who do it seem to be former banned posters or shitbags in general~

Not CP Sully. Sully as in Andrew Sullivan, barebackin' contrarian of the blogosphere.

RedNeckRaider
09-17-2012, 05:46 PM
Not CP Sully. Sully as in Andrew Sullivan, barebackin' contrarian of the blogosphere.

Once again Baby Lee speaks above my head :doh!::)

Baby Lee
09-17-2012, 05:50 PM
Once again Baby Lee speaks above my head :doh!::)

You that? That there? In the thread header?

http://andrewsullivan.thedailybeast....d-apology.html

That is an internet hyperlink. It sends you elsewhere in a series of tubes, That particular link will send you to a section of The Daily Beast where a blogger named Andrew Sullivan posts his remarks.

Often Mr. Sullivan's last name is shortened to Sully, which is unfortunate here as we already have one of those, and I forgot to differentiate between the two.

Oh, and the barebackin' reference is about his express willingness back in the height of the AIDS scare to continue to engage in unprotected gay anal sex. A fact which led liberals to simply refer to him as 'The Barebacker' back then when he wasn't 'on their side.'

RedNeckRaider
09-17-2012, 05:57 PM
You that? That there? In the thread header?

http://andrewsullivan.thedailybeast....d-apology.html

That is an internet hyperlink. It sends you elsewhere in a series of tubes, That particular link will send you to a section of The Daily Beast where a blogger named Andrew Sullivan posts his remarks.

Often Mr. Sullivan's last name is shortened to Sully, which is unfortunate here as we already have one of those, and I forgot to differentiate between the two.

It missed my bat, when you said Sully I clicked to the poster. I was busy trying to recall posts from him. After I had replied I was thinking that the poster Sully seemed like a good guy, and I was thinking if he was like lightrise I would have remembered him being a clown. In short I was side tracked and ran the stop sign officer~

Baby Lee
09-17-2012, 06:00 PM
It missed my bat, when you said Sully I clicked to the poster. I was busy trying to recall posts from him. After I had replied I was thinking that the poster Sully seemed like a good guy, and I was thinking if he was like lightrise I would have remembered him being a clown. In short I was side tracked and ran the stop sign officer~

I guess I was a little to ambiguous. when I wrote 'not CP Sully' I meant 'not Sully the poster from here on Chiefsplanet.'

RedNeckRaider
09-17-2012, 06:07 PM
I guess I was a little to ambiguous. when I wrote 'not CP Sully' I meant 'not Sully the poster from here on Chiefsplanet.'

Lol I am starting to pack. I was glancing and quick posting. I am getting ready to close on a new house. Guilty of trying to goof off while trying to be a little productive. Once again I ran the stop sign...it clearly said stop and I was not paying attention~

BWillie
09-17-2012, 07:14 PM
Is it disgraceful to disown an (alledgely) hateful video that insults a culture you're trying to diplomatically relate to?

When are non-radical muslims going to apologize for dragging innocent Americans thru the street and senseless murder instead of going "oh this is a bad deal, but hey you had it coming with that video".

LiveSteam
09-17-2012, 07:27 PM
When are non-radical muslims going to apologize for dragging innocent Americans thru the street and senseless murder instead of going "oh this is a bad deal, but hey you had it coming with that video".

Never
More than 27,000 Muslims have been killed in Syria. Muslim reaction nothing.
A stupid video surfaces & Muslims unite & go on the attack against the USA