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Mr. Kotter
09-20-2012, 12:11 PM
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If Americans are paying attention, and grasp the reality and not the demagoguery of what Romney said, it could be the final nail in his coffin....

Americans are not moochers

CNN.com
By Teresa Ghilarducci and Rick McGahey
updated 12:54 PM EDT, Thu September 20, 2012

http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/20/opinion/ghilarducci-mcgahey-romney/index.html?iid=article_sidebar
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Editor's note: Teresa Ghilarducci and Rick McGahey are professors of economics at the Schwartz Center for Economic Policy Analysis and The New School in New York City.

(CNN) -- Americans are not a nation of moochers and helpless dependents. Those who are not paying federal income tax would gladly do so, because it would mean they have a decent-paying job.

GOP presidential candidate Mitt Romney is right that 47% of Americans don't pay federal income tax. But he is wrong to suggest almost half of Americans pay no tax at all and feel entitled to live off government handouts.

Romney said: "There are 47% of the people who will vote for the president no matter what. All right, there are 47% who are with him, who are dependent upon government, who believe that they are victims, who believe the government has a responsibility to care for them, who believe that they are entitled to health care, to food, to housing, to you-name-it. But that's an entitlement. And the government should give it to them. And they will vote for this president no matter what. ... These are people who pay no income tax."

It's true that some Americans don't pay federal income tax. But virtually all Americans pay some form of tax, whether it's sales, payroll, state income, or property tax.

Over 60% of those who don't pay income tax are working; they pay payroll tax, which goes to support Social Security and Medicare. Another 22% of those who don't pay income tax are the elderly; most of them don't work.

In fact, only about 8% of Americans pay neither federal income tax nor payroll tax, because they are unemployed, are students, or are disabled. What is missing from all this talk about tax is the fact that although the rich pay higher taxes than the poor, middle-class people actually pay a higher percentage of their income in total taxes. True, federal income tax rates are progressive, with rates going to 35% for the top earners. But deductions and special treatment of capital gains reduce actual tax rates for the top earners. So what we end up with is upper-middle-class taxpayers paying the highest actual percentage of their income, over 31%, according to a 2010 study by the group Citizens for Tax Justice.

The payroll tax for Social Security is 12.4% (split between employer and employee). It's highly regressive, because only the first $110,100 of income is taxed. CEOs earning over $35 million per year have paid their entire annual Social Security tax bill before the end of their workday on January 2, while regular workers see this tax deducted from every check throughout the year.

Billionaire Warren Buffett points out that he pays a tax rate of only 17.8%, compared with his secretary's rate of 35.8%. Why? Because payroll taxes are capped and he gets a lower rate on his capital gains.

President Obama pushed to pass the "Buffett Rule" to help reduce this disparity, but Romney's vice-presidential running mate, Rep. Paul Ryan, opposed the rule, calling support for it "class warfare." As the Republicans use the term "class warfare," they also bring forth, pointedly, details on the wide gap in income and wealth distribution in our country.

Digging deeper into why 47% don't pay federal income tax, what we find are many former taxpayers: Twenty-two percent are the elderly, living mostly on Social Security, a benefit they got by working and paying payroll taxes. Others are unemployed or are paid close to the minimum wage, so they don't have enough income to file any taxes.

What about Romney's claim that these people believe they have a right to government assistance? Our research shows that over 50% of older people looking for work (but who are too young to collect Social Security) do not receive unemployment insurance or any other government assistance. They are living close to the poverty line with no help other than family.

Far fewer poor Americans get government assistance for low incomes. For the last 30 years, less than 4% of the U.S. population has received a full year's worth of payments, like food stamps, which are based on level of income.

Romney can choose whom he cares about, but he can't be allowed to choose his own facts and distort reality in service of divisive politics. Focusing exclusively on federal income taxes hides the fact that most Americans pay plenty of other taxes.

Finally, Romney says that the 47% can't be convinced to take "personal responsibility." Tell that to the single mother working the night shift to put her kids through school, or the 78-year-old widow living on Social Security, or the handicapped Iraqi war veteran who relies on government health care for his service to his country. Along with millions of working Americans, they are paragons of personal responsibility, not Romney's caricature of self-pitying victims seeking to live off government benefits.

blaise
09-20-2012, 12:34 PM
Teachers are moochers.

Mr. Kotter
09-20-2012, 12:42 PM
Teachers are moochers.

Yeah, it's incredibly ironic....talk about a world turned upside-down....pedestrian public servants have become the villians in the GOP's 21st Century America, while Wall Street plutocrats who were responsible for the 2008-2009 recession are somehow above reproach.

blaise
09-20-2012, 12:45 PM
Yeah, it's incredibly ironic....talk about a world turned upside-down....pedestrian public servants have become the villians in the GOP's 21st Century America, while Wall Street plutocrats who were responsible for the 2008-2009 recession are somehow above reproach.

I hear you. Teachers are gay.

Mr. Kotter
09-20-2012, 12:47 PM
I hear you. Teachers are gay.

From what I've observed from you, Freud would suggest you are projecting again...NTTAWWT, of course.

Chief Henry
09-20-2012, 12:49 PM
Teresa, the co author of this article is one of the elites that Iowa Senator Tom Harkin had come to DC several years ago to try to concock a plan that Harkin wants so the Gov't can take peoples 401k monies and 403B and IRA accunts and put it under the control of the Federal Gov't. Harkin then wants to outlaw 401ks and other similar plans.

Harkin thinks the GOV'T can do a better job with your money ! Harkin can't wait to access all the funds in peoples retirement accounts.

Harkin can KISS MY lilly white ASS.

blaise
09-20-2012, 12:50 PM
From what I've observed from you, Freud would suggest you are projecting again...NTTAWWT, of course.

I feel flattered that you've been looking for clues that I might be gay. I'm not, but like you said, NTTAWWT, so best of luck.

Mr. Kotter
09-20-2012, 12:54 PM
Teresa, the co author of this article is one of the elites that Iowa Senator Tom Harkin had come to DC several years ago to try to concock a plan that Harkin wants so the Gov't can take peoples 401k monies and 403B and IRA ac****s and put it under the control of the Federal Gov't. Harkin then wants to outlaw 401ks and other similar plans.

Harkin thinks the GOV'T can do a better job with your money ! Harkin can't wait to access all the funds in peoples retirement accounts.

Harkin can KISS MY lilly white ASS.

Given the way Wall Street, banking, and mortgage lenders raped taxpayers and the economy back in 2008, their suspicion of financial industry titans ability to manage worker retirements seems reasonable. Not saying I agree entirely with their position, but it's not an unreasonable position.

stevieray
09-20-2012, 12:59 PM
partisian shill...you're being used, just like they want it.

as long as they can keep people pointing the finger at the other side, the collaspe will go as planned.

sign at occupy the other day...

"bring down capitalism
fight for socialism"

Mr. Kotter
09-20-2012, 01:07 PM
partisian shill...you're being used, just like they want it.

as long as they can keep people pointing the finger at the other side, the collaspe will go as planned.

sign at occupy the other day...

"bring down capitalism
fight for socialism"

stevie,

I could say the exact same to you....

except sign at the Tea Party rally the other day....

"Obama: We came unarmed (this time)"

I'm sure as hell NOT an Occupy guy; are you a tea party guy?

stevieray
09-20-2012, 01:26 PM
stevie,

I could say the exact same to you....

except sign at the Tea Party rally the other day....

"Obama: We came unarmed (this time)"

I'm sure as hell NOT an Occupy guy; are you a tea party guy?
dude, I've been saying for years this is genrational, not party

the right to bear arms shall not be infringed..why do you think that is there?

...to fight for socialism? don't be naive.

Mr. Kotter
09-20-2012, 01:46 PM
dude, I've been saying for years this is genrational, not party

the right to bear arms shall not be infringed..why do you think that is there?

...to fight for socialism? don't be naive.

Yeah, many misguided Americans from our grandparent's generation thought the country was going to hell in a hand-basket in the 60s and 70s too; it didn't. The generation of sex-drugs-and-rock-and-roll grew up and got smarter too--just like always. Change is frightening to some people--but it's the one constant in life. Retreating to butter, guns, and the Bible makes you feel better, but it doesn't solve real world problems.

The right to bear arms is one thing; a veiled assasination threat, another.

Most importantly though, there is a big difference between a prosperous republic that ensures the general welfare of society through a safety net....and that boogie-man of Socialism that the far-right keep trotting out. Too bad so many WANT to believe the lies of the right... listening to the voices of cynical and self-serving sychophants of the plutocracy that has emerged in the last 15 years in this country.

If "Dittoheads" and "true Americans" want to see naive, they need to look in the mirror.

BIG_DADDY
09-20-2012, 01:59 PM
Everyone knows a boat load of moochers living off the system but they don't really exist because CNN says so. Great post Kotter.

Taco John
09-20-2012, 02:04 PM
From Clinton, to Bush, to Obama...

Which way will the wind blow tomorrow...

The_Grand_Illusion
09-20-2012, 02:13 PM
Everyone knows a boat load of moochers living off the system but they don't really exist because CNN says so. Great post Kotter.

This is why what Romney said hits liberals/progressives so hard. It points out their failures of the last 50 or so years. What they call “safety net” has turned in to government dependence, laziness, and unproductively to the point of being 16 trillion dollars in debt for their all-things government mentality. What they believe has failed miserably and their whole culture is in denial about it. If the failure of being 16 trillion dollars in debt for the government to be the end all, doesn't get them to realize their failures, nothing will until they completely destroy this country.

TGI

CoMoChief
09-20-2012, 03:45 PM
Yeah, many misguided Americans from our grandparent's generation thought the country was going to hell in a hand-basket in the 60s and 70s too; it didn't. The generation of sex-drugs-and-rock-and-roll grew up and got smarter too--just like always. Change is frightening to some people--but it's the one constant in life. Retreating to butter, guns, and the Bible makes you feel better, but it doesn't solve real world problems.

The right to bear arms is one thing; a veiled assasination threat, another.

Most importantly though, there is a big difference between a prosperous republic that ensures the general welfare of society through a safety net....and that boogie-man of Socialism that the far-right keep trotting out. Too bad so many WANT to believe the lies of the right... listening to the voices of cynical and self-serving sychophants of the plutocracy that has emerged in the last 15 years in this country.

If "Dittoheads" and "true Americans" want to see naive, they need to look in the mirror.

God dude.....really?

chiefzilla1501
09-20-2012, 05:06 PM
I honestly don't understand why we have people and politicians that want to blame crooked wall street executives or blame freeloaders as if it's an either/or thing.

Both are part of the problem. Why do people act like one thing is wrong and not the other?

suzzer99
09-20-2012, 05:06 PM
This is why what Romney said hits liberals/progressives so hard. It points out their failures of the last 50 or so years. What they call “safety net” has turned in to government dependence, laziness, and unproductively to the point of being 16 trillion dollars in debt for their all-things government mentality. What they believe has failed miserably and their whole culture is in denial about it. If the failure of being 16 trillion dollars in debt for the government to be the end all, doesn't get them to realize their failures, nothing will until they completely destroy this country.

TGI

A gigantic chunk that $16T in debt is due to defense, SS and medicare. The stuff you are talking about like food stamps and welfare is a rounding error on top of the budgets for those thing.

I realize this doesn't matter to you because this is more of an emotional issue than a logical issue for you - and you will just ascribe whatever number you feel to the moocher class debt.

stevieray
09-20-2012, 05:10 PM
Yeah, many misguided Americans from our grandparent's generation thought the country was going to hell in a hand-basket in the 60s and 70s too; it didn't. The generation of sex-drugs-and-rock-and-roll grew up and got smarter too--just like always. Change is frightening to some people--but it's the one constant in life. Retreating to butter, guns, and the Bible makes you feel better, but it doesn't solve real world problems.

The right to bear arms is one thing; a veiled assasination threat, another.

Most importantly though, there is a big difference between a prosperous republic that ensures the general welfare of society through a safety net....and that boogie-man of Socialism that the far-right keep trotting out. Too bad so many WANT to believe the lies of the right... listening to the voices of cynical and self-serving sychophants of the plutocracy that has emerged in the last 15 years in this country.

If "Dittoheads" and "true Americans" want to see naive, they need to look in the mirror.
this post is so full of fail, it's pathetic.

but hey, I understand how those pesky first and second amendments get under your skin like they do...take the mask off, kotter.

suzzer99
09-20-2012, 05:12 PM
I honestly don't understand why we have people and politicians that want to blame crooked wall street executives or blame freeloaders as if it's an either/or thing.

Both are part of the problem. Why do people act like one thing is wrong and not the other?

I completely agree. I do think the crooked wall st. executives are doing a lot more damage to the country right now.

But I don't like what we've been doing expanding food stamps and removing wellfare-to-work requirements - not so much because of the cost, which is minimal in the grand scheme - but because I think getting on public assistance for too long tends to ruin people. I've seen it happen.

ReynardMuldrake
09-20-2012, 05:21 PM
This is why what Romney said hits liberals/progressives so hard. It points out their failures of the last 50 or so years. What they call “safety net” has turned in to government dependence, laziness, and unproductively to the point of being 16 trillion dollars in debt for their all-things government mentality. What they believe has failed miserably and their whole culture is in denial about it. If the failure of being 16 trillion dollars in debt for the government to be the end all, doesn't get them to realize their failures, nothing will until they completely destroy this country.

TGI

The $16T national debt is due to having a congress that couldn't pass a balanced budget to save its life in the past decade. Instead of fix the problem at its source, they vote to raise the debt ceiling over and over and over again.

There's really no reason we should have this large a deficit other than nobody will step up to the plate and pass a responsible budget. Everybody wants it to be somebody else's problem.

Pawnmower
09-20-2012, 05:28 PM
Payroll tax people DIRECTLY get back via social security and medicare....

The "Payroll" tax is a pretty dumb argument, intended to sway stupid idiots who ccan't grasp the concept that you get back what you put into payroll tax...and it goes ONLY to very specific items.

Income taxes on the other hand you do not DIRECTLY get back, and are dispersed to others by way of entitlements, services...etc....

Acting like it isn't a big deal that about 50% of the country pays NOTHING or very little into the pot of funds that goes to EVERYTHING else other than social security and medicare is just as dishonest as anything else.

The fact is, we as a society cannot continue to go on with 50% of the population paying zero or very close to zero for income tax....while at the same time using a large percentage of the benefits that income tax pays for.

Personally, I would do away altogether with income taxes...no more unfair system. All we really need is an additional flat tax on consumption that NO ONE can bypass (except basic food items and used/second hand/goodwill items). Corporations: NO you can't bypass this. Rich people: Sorry, if you want to buy all that stuff, you will pay the most consumption. Poor people: If you want an xbox, youll have to pay consumption...if you want basic items like food and milk and thrift clothing, you wont need to pay ANY consumption tax. Middle Class: You want to live like a rich person and have all the nice crap - PAY consumption tax....You want to scrimp and save and buy used items and avoid consumption tax??? GO for it!

Mr. Kotter
09-20-2012, 07:13 PM
this post is so full of fail, it's pathetic.

but hey, I understand how those pesky first and second amendments get under your skin like they do...take the mask off, kotter.

Is there any chance you are willing to elaborate, or you just want to forget it?

BigRedChief
09-20-2012, 07:14 PM
Everyone knows a boat load of moochers living off the system but they don't really exist because CNN says so. Great post Kotter.I believe that it's less than 1% that are moochers. The rest are retirees, pay payroll taxes, elderly, military etc.

I'm in favor of getting those "real" moochers off the taxpayer dime. Hand up, not hand out. You get a plan to get off the taxpayer dime asap or else GTFO. And while your being helped by your fellow citzens, give back. Work in a library, landscape in parks, work in an office something.

We should have a time limit that you can recieve aid.

We should have a minimum tax that applies to all Americans.

The_Grand_Illusion
09-20-2012, 07:19 PM
A gigantic chunk that $16T in debt is due to defense, SS and medicare. The stuff you are talking about like food stamps and welfare is a rounding error on top of the budgets for those thing.

I realize this doesn't matter to you because this is more of an emotional issue than a logical issue for you - and you will just ascribe whatever number you feel to the moocher class debt.

You missed my point entirely. The trillions of dollars of debt is just the product of a failed ideology that has brought big out-of-control government to the table for the last half century or more. It is just not sustainable if we are to remain a free and prosperous country.

TGI

Comrade Crapski
09-21-2012, 12:13 AM
Teresa, the co author of this article is one of the elites that Iowa Senator Tom Harkin had come to DC several years ago to try to concock a plan that Harkin wants so the Gov't can take peoples 401k monies and 403B and IRA ac****s and put it under the control of the Federal Gov't. Harkin then wants to outlaw 401ks and other similar plans.

Harkin thinks the GOV'T can do a better job with your money ! Harkin can't wait to access all the funds in peoples retirement accounts.

Harkin can KISS MY lilly white ASS.

Holy shit, i remember that broad. LMAO

There was a thread on Teresa, I'm gonna see if I can find it.

Comrade Crapski
09-21-2012, 12:19 AM
here 'tis

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=250771&highlight=401K+confiscation+Teresa

Heh.

ClevelandBronco
09-21-2012, 12:20 AM
From Clinton, to Bush, to Obama...

Which way will the wind blow tomorrow...

Sometimes it's a breeze, sometimes it's a gale, but it only blows in one direction.

Mr. Flopnuts
09-21-2012, 05:53 AM
This is why what Romney said hits liberals/progressives so hard. It points out their failures of the last 50 or so years. What they call “safety net” has turned in to government dependence, laziness, and unproductively to the point of being 16 trillion dollars in debt for their all-things government mentality. What they believe has failed miserably and their whole culture is in denial about it. If the failure of being 16 trillion dollars in debt for the government to be the end all, doesn't get them to realize their failures, nothing will until they completely destroy this country.

TGI

And here is the HUGE disconnect that I get from Republicans. Welfare/Food stamps are a drop in the fucking bucket of our National Debt compared to the fallout of corporate banker greed that occurred in 2008. QE, stimulus, and bailouts are how we've achieved this debt. And that was ALL due to the deregulation and subsequent greed that ensued in the middle of the last decade.

But by all means, keep banging the drum against the poorest of our society. I know it sucks that you have to go to work every day and they can't/won't. Hope it makes you feel better when inflation drives eggs up to $8 a dozen. It's all their fault.

KILLER_CLOWN
09-21-2012, 07:00 AM
And here is the HUGE disconnect that I get from Republicans. Welfare/Food stamps are a drop in the ****ing bucket of our National Debt compared to the fallout of corporate banker greed that occurred in 2008. QE, stimulus, and bailouts are how we've achieved this debt. And that was ALL due to the deregulation and subsequent greed that ensued in the middle of the last decade.

But by all means, keep banging the drum against the poorest of our society. I know it sucks that you have to go to work every day and they can't/won't. Hope it makes you feel better when inflation drives eggs up to $8 a dozen. It's all their fault.

Why limit it to 2008? This shit is still going on.

vailpass
09-21-2012, 07:30 AM
Kotter embraces the welfare state. I wouldn't have thought that in years past. Not that he should give a shit what I think.

Mr. Kotter
09-21-2012, 07:53 AM
Kotter embraces the welfare state. I wouldn't have thought that in years past. Not that he should give a shit what I think.

There's a huge difference between a welfare state that establishes a true socialist society, and a free republic obligated to promote general welfare (you know, that pesky phrase in the Constitution.) We are the latter, not the former--no matter how insistent right wing ideologues are on the matter. Except too many are too lazy to see that for themselves.

However, if the right insists continuing to push the country into a new Gilded Age and toward a second Great Depression, a second Progressive Movement might be their only recourse for reclaiming the country from the One-percenters. "Let them eat cake," indeed.

vailpass
09-21-2012, 08:33 AM
There's a huge difference between a welfare state that establishes a true socialist society, and a free republic obligated to promote general welfare (you know, that pesky phrase in the Constitution.) We are the latter, not the former--no matter how insistent right wing ideologues are on the matter. Except too many are too lazy to see that for themselves.

However, if the right insists continuing to push the country into a new Gilded Age and toward a second Great Depression, a second Progressive Movement might be their only recourse for reclaiming the country from the One-percenters. "Let them eat cake," indeed.

Thanks for the response. You and I interpret that phrase differently. Perhaps the right of it lies somewhere between your view and mine.
Have a good one Kotter, happy Friday to you.

patteeu
09-21-2012, 09:13 AM
It's hard to capture the looter phenomenon (I prefer looter over moocher) in statistics because it's really more about the state of mind than about whether or not a person pays taxes or has a job. For example, Kotter is clearly a looter based on his eat-the-rich mentality, but according to him he's drawing a paycheck for the job he does in between his bouts with the bottle.

FishingRod
09-21-2012, 09:19 AM
I believe that it's less than 1% that are moochers. The rest are retirees, pay payroll taxes, elderly, military etc.

I'm in favor of getting those "real" moochers off the taxpayer dime. Hand up, not hand out. You get a plan to get off the taxpayer dime asap or else GTFO. And while your being helped by your fellow citzens, give back. Work in a library, landscape in parks, work in an office something.

We should have a time limit that you can recieve aid.

We should have a minimum tax that applies to all Americans.

the soapbox...

The only disagreement I have is the 1% you have more faith in people than I do. Once upon a time there was a stigma to taking a ”handout” . Today it seems a great many people not only feel no sense of guilt but feel they have it coming to them. Regardless of the debate of what the Governments role should be in being my brother’s keeper the Government needs to start setting a better example of living within their means.

With the Trillions collected in Taxes at the local ,state and federal level there is no reason that those that are truly in need can’t be helped, our infrastructure maintained and our country defended. It just thoroughly pisses people off that the spending has no relation to the funds available and keep being sold a bill of goods that if "They” fill in the blank, (corporations, the Rich, the Banks...) just played fair everything would be fine. It is just insulting they think we should believe that Uncle Sam is somehow going to stick it to “them” and it is not going to eventually come out of “our” pockets.

Do you ever wonder why the left never proposes making the Bush Tax cuts on the middle and lower class permanent instead of just extending them for another year? It seems pretty obvious to me. To be fair the right showed a pathetic degree of fiscal responsibility when it was their guy in the Whitehouse.

In a bizzaro world sort of way. Obama has done more to remind conservatives what it is that they are supposed to believe in than any conservative messiah could have ever hoped for.

Comrade Crapski
09-21-2012, 09:22 AM
It's hard to capture the looter phenomenon (I prefer looter over moocher) in statistics because it's really more about the state of mind than about whether or not a person pays taxes or has a job. For example, Kotter is clearly a looter based on his eat-the-rich mentality, but according to him he's drawing a paycheck for the job he does in between his bouts with the bottle.

ROFL

Mr. Kotter
09-21-2012, 09:33 AM
Thanks for the response. You and I interpret that phrase differently. Perhaps the right of it lies somewhere between your view and mine.
Have a good one Kotter, happy Friday to you.

Have a good weekend, vail. :toast:

Mr. Kotter
09-21-2012, 09:35 AM
It's hard to capture the looter phenomenon (I prefer looter over moocher) in statistics because it's really more about the state of mind than about whether or not a person pays taxes or has a job. For example, Kotter is clearly a looter based on his eat-the-rich mentality, but according to him he's drawing a paycheck for the job he does in between his bouts with the bottle.

Wow...your alternative universe is beginning to battle BEP for the title of most kooky. :spock:

KILLER_CLOWN
09-21-2012, 09:36 AM
Man this thread is awesome, a battle between Moonbats and RWNJ's or so i've been told.

J Diddy
09-21-2012, 09:37 AM
Wow...your alternative universe is beginning to battle BEP for the title of most kooky. :spock:

No shit.

J Diddy
09-21-2012, 09:38 AM
Man this thread is awesome, a battle between Moonbats and RWNJ's or so i've been told.

The rightwingers can give me a moonjob.

KILLER_CLOWN
09-21-2012, 09:40 AM
The rightwingers can give me a moonjob.

Lick me batjob! errr... something like that.

philfree
09-21-2012, 09:43 AM
Focusing exclusively on federal income taxes hides the fact that most Americans pay plenty of other taxes.


This has nothing to do with the issue. I pay those and as well as lot's of sales tax and excise tax on things I buy. I think because of those things I should get a income tax waver.

TEX
09-21-2012, 09:45 AM
Everyone knows a boat load of moochers living off the system but they don't really exist because CNN says so. Great post Kotter.

:clap: LMAO

boogblaster
09-21-2012, 09:54 AM
maybe a small percent are moochers .. but most are simply not making it today .. thus they have to apply for some help .. most would gladly work if there was decent jobs for them .....

philfree
09-21-2012, 10:02 AM
Regardless of all the poitical BS there still are a huge % of people not paying income tax. I find it absurd to think that we balance that out by raising taxes on 1% of the poeple when that 1% is already paying something like 37% of the burden.

Mr. Kotter
09-21-2012, 10:08 AM
Regardless of all the poitical BS there still are a huge % of people not paying income tax. I find it absurd to think that we balance that out by raising taxes on 1% of the poeple when that 1% is already paying something like 37% of the burden.

Link? Seriously.... :shrug:

If your point is...the top 3-5% pay a much larger share of taxes paid, no one should disagree; what you and others ignore is....their "share" of taxes paid, is still less than their "share" of national income and assets.

patteeu
09-21-2012, 10:10 AM
Link? Seriously.... :shrug:

If your point is...the top 3-5% pay a much larger share of taxes paid, no one should disagree; what you and others ignore is....their "share" of taxes paid, is still less than their "share" of national income and assets.

http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxtopics/federal-taxes-households.cfm

http://www.heritage.org/federalbudget/top10-percent-income-earners

Mr. Kotter
09-21-2012, 10:11 AM
http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxtopics/federal-taxes-households.cfm

"There you go again" ....confusing and conflating federal income taxes, with total tax burden.

And the link you added/edited (conservative think tank, lacky) cites 10% pay 71% of taxes, but doesn't reveal their share of total income and assets....I wonder why? Hmmmm......

philfree
09-21-2012, 10:14 AM
Link? Seriously.... :shrug:

If your point is...the top 3-5% pay a much larger share of taxes paid, no one should disagree; what you and others ignore is....their "share" of taxes paid, is still less than their "share" of national income and assets.

I don't have a link and I'm not good at this stuff but I'm trying to learn all I can about it at this point by absorbing everything I can. So in that vein explain what you mean by their "share" of national income and assets

patteeu
09-21-2012, 10:14 AM
"There you go again" ....confusing and conflating federal income taxes, with total tax burden.

I'm not confused, you are. You asked for a link in response to a post about income tax not about all federal taxes.

BIG_DADDY
09-21-2012, 10:15 AM
This whole thread is a prime example of how sheeple will believe anything the media says just as long as it supports their mentality. I think all of us know a lot of moochers but apparently they don't exist because CNN says so and it serves Kotter's purpose. To go down this road you have to be both stubborn and stupid.

Mr. Kotter
09-21-2012, 10:21 AM
This whole thread is a prime example of how sheeple will believe anything the media says just as long as it supports their mentality. I think all of us know a lot of moochers but apparently they don't exist because CNN says so and it serves Kotter's purpose. To go down this road you have to be both stubborn and stupid.

Look, BD...I know have your mind made up, but look at the facts. The bottom-line is that 47% don't pay taxes....is complete hogwash, and it's being used to demagogue conservative sheeple on the issue.

If you want to severely cut entitlements and reduce incentives and tax breaks that affect chunks of that 47%, fine; I'm open to that discussion. But let's be honest about the real numbers, and we should also talk about the cuts to incentives and programs and tax shelters and cuts that benefit the top enders too.

BIG_DADDY
09-21-2012, 10:31 AM
Look, BD...I know have your mind made up, but look at the facts. The bottom-line is that 47% don't pay taxes....is complete hogwash, and it's being used to demagogue conservative sheeple on the issue.

If you want to severely cut entitlements and reduce incentives and tax breaks that affect chunks of that 47%, fine; I'm open to that discussion. But let's be honest about the real numbers, and we should also talk about the cuts to incentives and programs and tax shelters and cuts that benefit the top enders too.

Ask any business owner about the game, you know the one. Work until you qualify for unemployment and then live on that as long as you can and then do it again. It's a huge problem. We are a country filled with lazy ass moochers. That was my point. It's not about whether someone paid income tax and who cares what the exact percentage is? It's really high and yes they all will be voting for Obama for obvious reasons.

HemiEd
09-21-2012, 10:35 AM
A gigantic chunk that $16T in debt is due to defense, SS and medicare. The stuff you are talking about like food stamps and welfare is a rounding error on top of the budgets for those thing.

I realize this doesn't matter to you because this is more of an emotional issue than a logical issue for you - and you will just ascribe whatever number you feel to the moocher class debt.

bullshit.

SS was supposed to be funded on it's own, not touched by the government, and we pay into it separately.

The fact that LBJ saw fit to start raiding it, and it has been going on since then, does not make it part of the fucking debt. In fact, it has been used for funding non SS programs, or the debt would be higher.

My SS account (mine and employer contributions) has funded over $350k to the Government and I will not live long enough to see half of that principal, let alone the interest it should have drawn. Now the fucking socialist liberals are going to figure out how to take that away.

Swanman
09-21-2012, 10:36 AM
Look, BD...I know have your mind made up, but look at the facts. The bottom-line is that 47% don't pay taxes....is complete hogwash, and it's being used to demagogue conservative sheeple on the issue.

If you want to severely cut entitlements and reduce incentives and tax breaks that affect chunks of that 47%, fine; I'm open to that discussion. But let's be honest about the real numbers, and we should also talk about the cuts to incentives and programs and tax shelters and cuts that benefit the top enders too.

The 47% figure is a true figure. 47% (give or take a percent) do not end up paying any federal income taxes. However, there are many reasons why that happens (retirees on SS, active duty soldiers, full time students, working poor). The true "moochers" are not that 47%, I would estimate far, far less than 47%. Maybe in my personal experience I deal with more decent people than other, but the people I know that received federal/state aid at some point were working their asses off to get off it.

FishingRod
09-21-2012, 10:55 AM
"There you go again" ....confusing and conflating federal income taxes, with total tax burden.

And the link you added/edited (conservative think tank, lacky) cites 10% pay 71% of taxes, but doesn't reveal their share of total income and assets....I wonder why? Hmmmm......

If they make 71% of the income would you feel that is fair?

The_Grand_Illusion
09-21-2012, 01:16 PM
And here is the HUGE disconnect that I get from Republicans. Welfare/Food stamps are a drop in the ****ing bucket of our National Debt compared to the fallout of corporate banker greed that occurred in 2008. QE, stimulus, and bailouts are how we've achieved this debt. And that was ALL due to the deregulation and subsequent greed that ensued in the middle of the last decade.

But by all means, keep banging the drum against the poorest of our society. I know it sucks that you have to go to work every day and they can't/won't. Hope it makes you feel better when inflation drives eggs up to $8 a dozen. It's all their fault.

You think I'm attacking the poor? You apparently missed my next response too. So many in this country are so misinformed because you think it's good to look to your wants and needs or the wants and needs of others by government means. Of course government controls the education in this country so it's going to lean for its students to look to government for their answers. We have a whole culture brought up this way and it's slowly destroying our country because in reality government can't be the end all for everything like so many hold dear in this country. We have to have some semblance of personal responsibility. I'm not the biggest Romney fan but he stated this and it gets attacked furiously by the left because it's true. We can't go on with the wreckless government we have just to make liberals feel better about themselves, it's fiscal insanity. FWIW, the government's war on poverty was supposed to wipe out poverty and now look at the FUBAR mess we are now in.

I had to shake my head when you claimed I am attacking the poor. I'm one of those minorities that came from humble beginnings. I never took any government handouts and worked my ass off to build a successful business for almost 2 decades. I started with nothing but by the grace of God was able to achieve. The big bloated out-of-control governments has nearly destroyed my industry so I am struggling mightily right now. I AM living through the unintended consequences of what liberals/progressives believe. I look around at all the business closings or strugglings and I understand the damage they have done by looking for government to be their end all. All the burdens they have put on Americans over the decades just so they can feel better about themselves. It's really fucked up reasoning and needs to be called out before they do any more damage to this country. This country is in some serious need for austerity because it can't go on with the wreckless government like it has.

Reagan warned us that government wasn't the answer to our problems, it often is the problem but we have a government controlled education culture that has done its damage. Just look at the OP, the way he attacks the tea party. The tea party only seeks government fiscal sanity but he sees it a threat to his own self-preservation. No one will blame him for that but he needs to be intellectually honest about that, same with anyone involved with government in some manner on why they hate conservatives.

FWIW, I'm not against helping the poor or even having a safety net for the poor but it has to be temporary. Americans need to open their eyes that what we've been doing has failed and is not working. What underlying evil the libs/progressives have brought is they are helping to destroy human dignity in this country. The human dignity for people to yearn to better themselves is dying because so many people look to government to be their end all. It's been frightening fanatical on this board at times too. Sociaiism, communism, or any other big out-of-control statist governments have always failed because for one, they destroy human dignity. Open your eyes, that's what is happening here too.

TGI

patteeu
09-22-2012, 11:11 AM
You think I'm attacking the poor? You apparently missed my next response too. So many in this country are so misinformed because you think it's good to look to your wants and needs or the wants and needs of others by government means. Of course government controls the education in this country so it's going to lean for its students to look to government for their answers. We have a whole culture brought up this way and it's slowly destroying our country because in reality government can't be the end all for everything like so many hold dear in this country. We have to have some semblance of personal responsibility. I'm not the biggest Romney fan but he stated this and it gets attacked furiously by the left because it's true. We can't go on with the wreckless government we have just to make liberals feel better about themselves, it's fiscal insanity. FWIW, the government's war on poverty was supposed to wipe out poverty and now look at the FUBAR mess we are now in.

I had to shake my head when you claimed I am attacking the poor. I'm one of those minorities that came from humble beginnings. I never took any government handouts and worked my ass off to build a successful business for almost 2 decades. I started with nothing but by the grace of God was able to achieve. The big bloated out-of-control governments has nearly destroyed my industry so I am struggling mightily right now. I AM living through the unintended consequences of what liberals/progressives believe. I look around at all the business closings or strugglings and I understand the damage they have done by looking for government to be their end all. All the burdens they have put on Americans over the decades just so they can feel better about themselves. It's really ****ed up reasoning and needs to be called out before they do any more damage to this country. This country is in some serious need for austerity because it can't go on with the wreckless government like it has.

Reagan warned us that government wasn't the answer to our problems, it often is the problem but we have a government controlled education culture that has done its damage. Just look at the OP, the way he attacks the tea party. The tea party only seeks government fiscal sanity but he sees it a threat to his own self-preservation. No one will blame him for that but he needs to be intellectually honest about that, same with anyone involved with government in some manner on why they hate conservatives.

FWIW, I'm not against helping the poor or even having a safety net for the poor but it has to be temporary. Americans need to open their eyes that what we've been doing has failed and is not working. What underlying evil the libs/progressives have brought is they are helping to destroy human dignity in this country. The human dignity for people to yearn to better themselves is dying because so many people look to government to be their end all. It's been frightening fanatical on this board at times too. Sociaiism, communism, or any other big out-of-control statist governments have always failed because for one, they destroy human dignity. Open your eyes, that's what is happening here too.

TGI

*standing ovation*

stevieray
09-23-2012, 12:31 AM
Is there any chance you are willing to elaborate, or you just want to forget it?
oh, so the shill who has made of career out of touting BS catchphrases, now wants to pretend to be coy and needs someone to explain it to him?

WTF did you not understand??

Comrade Crapski
09-23-2012, 02:42 AM
This country is infested with moocher scumbags...


8,733,461: Workers on Federal 'Disability' Exceed Population of New York City

By Terence P. Jeffrey

July 2, 2012

(CNSNews.com) - A record of 8,733,461 workers took federal disability insurance payments in June 2012, according to the Social Security Administration. That was up from 8,707,185 in May.

It also exceeds the entire population of New York City, which according to the Census Bureau's latest estimate hit 8,244,910 in July 2011.

There has been a dramatic shrinkage in the United States over the past 20 years in the number of workers actually employed and earning paychecks per worker who is not employed and is taking federal disability insurance payments.

In June 1992, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, there were 118,419,000 people employed in the United States, and, according to the Social Security Administration, there were 3,334,333 workers taking federal disability payments. That equaled about 1 person taking disability payments for each 35.5 people actually working.

When President Barack Obama was inaugurated in January 2009, there were 142,187,000 people employed and 7,442,377 workers taking federal disability payments. That equaled about 1 person taking disability payments for each 19.1 people actually working.

In May of this year, there were 142,287,000 people employed, and 8,707,185 workers taking federal disability payments. That equaled 1 worker taking disability payments for each 16.3 people working.

The federal disability payments made to the record 8,733,461 workers in June averaged $1,111.42.

Only 11 states--California, Florida, Georgia, Illinois, Michigan, New Jersey, New York, North Carolina, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Texas—have populations in excess of the 8,733,461 workers who took disability payments in June.

New Jersey’s 2010 Census population of 8,807,501 approximates the 8,733,461 workers who collected federal disability insurance in June.

In addition to the 8,733,461 workers taking federal disability payments in June, there were also 165,469 spouses of disabled workers getting federal disability payments and 1,899,756 children of disabled workers getting benefits. That brought the total number of beneficiaries receiving disability insurance payment in June to 10,798,686.

Federal disability insurance is funded by a 1.8 percent payroll tax split between employers and workers. Self-employed people pay the entire 1.8 percent.

The Social Security System’s Disability Insurance Trust Fund has run deficits in each of the last three fiscal years, meaning the government has needed to borrow money to pay disability benefits to the workers claiming them. In fiscal 2009, the Disability Insurance Trust Fund deficit was $8.5 billion. In fiscal 2010, it was $20.8 billion. And in fiscal 2011, it was $25.3 billion.

To be eligible for federal disability insurance payments, a person must have worked long enough to have qualified for the benefits and must also meet the Social Security Administration’s definition of “disabled.”

“We consider you disabled under Social Security rules if: You cannot do work that you did before; we decide that you cannot adjust to other work because of your medical condition(s); and your disability has lasted or is expected to last for at least one year or to result in death,” says the Social Security Administration.

Whether someone has worked long enough to qualify for federal disability insurance payments depends on their age and the number of “credits” they have earned from the Social Security system.

“Social Security work credits are based on your total yearly wages or self-employment income,” SSA explains. “You can earn up to four credits each year. The amount needed for a credit changes from year to year. In 2012, for example, you earn one credit for each $1,130 of wages or self-employment income. When you've earned $4,520, you've earned your four credits for the year.”

According to SSA’s formula, someone under 24 years of age would qualify for disability payments if he or she had earned at least 6 credits—or about $6,780—over the three years before they became disabled.

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/8733461-workers-federal-disability-exceed-population-new-york-city