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View Full Version : Nat'l Security Morality vs. Practical Reality. Where do you draw the line?


BigRedChief
09-26-2012, 06:13 PM
President Obama has used drones to kill suspected terrorists. There has been colleteral damage, innocent women and kids killed.

President Obama has launched attacks with Special forces on the ground and with drones into soverign nations without their permission. Basically invading those countries.

President Obama has ordered the execution of an American who wasnt convicted in a court of law but was clearly and publically helping Al-Quaeda. He authorized the mission that killed him.

He has allowed the CIA to continue the practice of rendition and didn't close GITMO.

We are "friends" with former terriost and current scumbags all over the world because they are anti Al-Quaeda.

So, the poll is does any of this bother you? It's a public poll, vote for any or all.

Since 9/11 my answer is totally different now.

Pawnmower
09-26-2012, 06:56 PM
Cant avoid collateral damage always, stuff happens.

If an American goes to a foreign land and joins arms with those who have declared war on us, they become an enemy combatant....I wouldn't support drone strikes on an "American" unless that were the case.

If sovereign nations hide our enemies, then we should try to work with them 1st....but if that isnt feasible or they aren't willing to work with us, by all means black ops time.

Our enemies should not feel safe, anywhere, EVER.

Let those who would kill our innocents know they cannot hide forever.

Calcountry
09-26-2012, 07:24 PM
You forgot the "Anything Obama does is o.k. with me, I'm a Democrat" option.

stonedstooge
09-26-2012, 07:25 PM
Killing people with drones is much more humane than torturing them/liberals

BigRedChief
09-26-2012, 07:29 PM
You forgot the "Anything Obama does is o.k. with me, I'm a Democrat" option.My views on these issues have become more clear the last couple of years.

loochy
09-26-2012, 07:32 PM
Ironically, Obama supporters are not moral Or practical. :shrug:

ClevelandBronco
09-26-2012, 07:34 PM
Open season on all that stuff with a formal declaration of war from Congress. Otherwise, shut it all down and come back home. We're not fighting for anything. We're just fighting.

BigRedChief
09-26-2012, 07:35 PM
Ironically, Obama supporters are not moral Or practical. :shrug:What do you expect from Communists?

DaneMcCloud
09-26-2012, 07:37 PM
Ironically, Obama supporters are not moral Or practical. :shrug:

LMAO

J Diddy
09-26-2012, 07:43 PM
Ironically, Obama supporters are not moral Or practical. :shrug:

What drew you to that conclusion? Or were you just talking out of your ass?

BucEyedPea
09-26-2012, 07:45 PM
I don't agree with the word "terrorists" here. We don't handle everyone else's terrorism just AQ which has declined.

loochy
09-26-2012, 07:49 PM
What drew you to that conclusion? Or were you just talking out of your ass?

I was just trolling. Don't worry, Republicans are just as immoral and impractical.

J Diddy
09-26-2012, 07:53 PM
I was just trolling. Don't worry, Republicans are just as immoral and impractical.

Well shit. Who are the enlightened ones?

BigRedChief
09-26-2012, 07:58 PM
Well shit. Who are the enlightened ones?This guy?http://ww1.prweb.com/prfiles/2012/05/14/9504137/Swamiji6.jpg

Calcountry
09-26-2012, 08:06 PM
The humane thing to do, is read them their rights, with respect to Sharia, then release them on their own recognizance as long as the promise to never do it again.

J Diddy
09-26-2012, 09:42 PM
This guy?http://ww1.prweb.com/prfiles/2012/05/14/9504137/Swamiji6.jpg

No shit. That's my neighbor.

FAX
09-26-2012, 09:54 PM
Open season on all that stuff with a formal declaration of war from Congress. Otherwise, shut it all down and come back home. We're not fighting for anything. We're just fighting.

There's a lot of truth to this statement.

FAX

Direckshun
09-26-2012, 10:00 PM
Unless there is compelling reasons otherwise, and I do mean truly compelling, I'm with CB.

That said, there are truly compelling things in this world. But not as many as we think there are.

KILLER_CLOWN
09-26-2012, 10:05 PM
You forgot the "Anything Obama does is o.k. with me, I'm a Democrat" option.

That about splains it.

patteeu
09-26-2012, 10:57 PM
Unless there is compelling reasons otherwise, and I do mean truly compelling, I'm with CB.

That said, there are truly compelling things in this world. But not as many as we think there are.

Why didn't you respond to the poll?

patteeu
09-26-2012, 10:58 PM
I don't have a problem with any of these things. I'd have a pretty high threshold for the one about targeting an American citizen though.

Bob Dole
09-27-2012, 12:33 AM
Killing an American? In all fairness, in what context?

La literatura
09-27-2012, 12:46 AM
I need more facts for each situation, but in most of them, I can imagine there are some situations when any of them would be acceptable. I think the killing of the one American citizen was okay, but in general, it's not okay.

I can't figure out what "continuing rendition" means, even after I've looked it up.

patteeu
09-27-2012, 08:00 AM
I need more facts for each situation, but in most of them, I can imagine there are some situations when any of them would be acceptable. I think the killing of the one American citizen was okay, but in general, it's not okay.

I can't figure out what "continuing rendition" means, even after I've looked it up.

Continuing rendition just means that Obama has continued to use the practice of extraordinary rendition (outsourcing interrogations of captives to countries where interrogators have more of a free hand when it comes to interrogation techniques) that had been used by GWBush and Bill Clinton, even after condemning such practices when he was a Senator and POTUS candidate.

patteeu
09-27-2012, 08:03 AM
Killing an American? In all fairness, in what context?

Here's the context. Click the picture if you don't recognize Anwar al-Awlaki and/or want to read about him.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e0/Anwar_al-Awlaki_sitting_on_couch%2C_lightened.jpg/220px-Anwar_al-Awlaki_sitting_on_couch%2C_lightened.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anwar_al-Awlaki)

La literatura
09-27-2012, 08:15 AM
Continuing rendition just means that Obama has continued to use the practice of extraordinary rendition (outsourcing interrogations of captives to countries where interrogators have more of a free hand when it comes to interrogation techniques) that had been used by GWBush and Bill Clinton, even after condemning such practices when he was a Senator and POTUS candidate.

Okay, thanks. If I recall, there was a particularly notorious moment where a Canadian citizen passing through an American airport was eventually sent to Saudi Arabia for brutal interrogation, even though he had done nothing.

patteeu
09-27-2012, 08:19 AM
Okay, thanks. If I recall, there was a particularly notorious moment where a Canadian citizen passing through an American airport was eventually sent to Saudi Arabia for brutal interrogation, even though he had done nothing.

It wouldn't surprise me if a mistake has been made in the past, but it also wouldn't surprise me if the right guy claimed to be the wrong guy after emerging from one of these deals. I don't remember the specific incident to which you refer.

dmahurin
09-27-2012, 08:50 AM
Here's the context. Click the picture if you don't recognize Anwar al-Awlaki and/or want to read about him.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e0/Anwar_al-Awlaki_sitting_on_couch%2C_lightened.jpg/220px-Anwar_al-Awlaki_sitting_on_couch%2C_lightened.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anwar_al-Awlaki)

Don't forget about his 16 year old son 2 weeks later in a separate strike. The one we claimed was mid 20's and of a military age.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdul-Rahman_al-Awlaki

patteeu
09-27-2012, 09:01 AM
Don't forget about his 16 year old son 2 weeks later in a separate strike. The one we claimed was mid 20's and of a military age.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdul-Rahman_al-Awlaki

His son wasn't specifically targeted, so he doesn't fall into this category.

Lightrise
09-27-2012, 09:07 AM
Dear Lightrise,

You have received a warning at ChiefsPlanet.

Reason:
-------
False Thread Title or fake news

Misleading thread title full of false news. Suck it!
-------

Original Post:
8925569
Romney said. "I think people would like to be paying taxes." Well he chose to reveal this on Fox News today. LOL So for all you republicans mesmerized by the Grover Norquist blackmail pledge...READ HIS LIPS...LMAO

Warnings serve as a reminder to you of the forum's rules, which you are expected to understand and follow.

All the best,
ChiefsPlanet


Hey you incompetent Texas buffoon. Since you were already widely discredited on the board for your incompetency, a notable Texas personality dysfunction, don't you think you need to stop making a fool of yourself here and restore thread creation priviledges so you will not be hounded relentlessly to take ownership for your failure?

La literatura
09-27-2012, 09:14 AM
It wouldn't surprise me if a mistake has been made in the past, but it also wouldn't surprise me if the right guy claimed to be the wrong guy after emerging from one of these deals. I don't remember the specific incident to which you refer.

Found it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maher_Arar

patteeu
09-27-2012, 09:23 AM
Found it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maher_Arar

That article suggests that there is some dispute about whether that was a rendition or a deportation. In any event, it looks like an innocent man had a pretty experience in Syria.

dmahurin
09-27-2012, 09:24 AM
His son wasn't specifically targeted, so he doesn't fall into this category.

The category of American killed by a drone stroke? Is it ok because we weren't aiming for him?

dmahurin
09-27-2012, 09:31 AM
What's the difference between a drone strike on an American breaking our laws over seas or here? If a group of Americans, who were terrorist sympathizers was found in a shack in Nevada would you support a drone strike on them? A drone strike killing Americans is a drone strike killing Americans no matter where or what the charge. There should be no place for it.

patteeu
09-27-2012, 09:47 AM
The category of American killed by a drone stroke? Is it ok because we weren't aiming for him?

Yes, exactly. Here's the description of the category:

President Obama has ordered the execution of an American who wasnt convicted in a court of law but was clearly and publically helping Al-Quaeda. He authorized the mission that killed him.

Obama didn't order the execution of the son. The son wasn't on the kill list. From the wikipedia page you linked:

Two U.S. officials stated the intended target of the October 14 airstrike was Ibrahim al-Banna, an Egyptian believed to be a senior operative in al-Qaeda's Yemen affiliate. However, another U.S. administration official described Abdul-Rahman al-Awlaki as a bystander who was "in the wrong place at the wrong time". This U.S. administration official stated that "the U.S. government did not know that Mr. Awlaki’s son was there" before the order to launch the missile was given.

patteeu
09-27-2012, 09:51 AM
What's the difference between a drone strike on an American breaking our laws over seas or here? If a group of Americans, who were terrorist sympathizers was found in a shack in Nevada would you support a drone strike on them? A drone strike killing Americans is a drone strike killing Americans no matter where or what the charge. There should be no place for it.

The difference is that it's our own soil and that collateral damage would be our own people and property. Under extreme conditions, e.g. we've been overrun by foreign forces and we're fighting a war on our own soil, my answer would be different, but under today's conditions, we don't need drone strikes to take out known terrorists on our own soil. We can just send a SWAT team or some other special tactics team in to either capture or kill the guy. We use drones in places like Yemen because we don't have free run of the country and an abundance of personnel on the ground to make use of it.

Reaper16
09-28-2012, 01:53 PM
I'm only OK with instances of "enemy-of-my-enemy-is-my-friend." Everything else is unconscionable, and makes up a significant part of why Barack Obama lost my vote a long time ago.

CoMoChief
09-28-2012, 01:58 PM
Just get the fuck out of there already.

No reason to be over there fighting US-backed boogeymen. This is a complete giant waste of money, time, and innocent blood being spilled.

BigRedChief
09-28-2012, 06:10 PM
Killing an American? In all fairness, in what context?The born in America Islamic Al-Quaeda guru for the Ft. Hood shooter and the underwear bomber, Anwar al-Awlaki.

He has called for the destruction of America. Helped plan attacks on the homeland. He was the Al-Qaeda internet wunderkind for recruiting english speaking people in the world.

I saw no need to capture him and bring his back to the USA for a public trial for treason. All that would do was give him a platform to be a martyr.

You publically take up arms against America, help those plan and kill americans, you are now an enemy of the USA regardless of where you were born. And you need to be killed before you kill more Americans.

ClevelandBronco
09-28-2012, 07:50 PM
Finally voted. I couldn't bring myself to vote for executing an American without trial.

I'm just not willing to give the government that kind of unchecked power. Executing an American without trial is pretty damned close to murder and I don't want to think about how far that power could be extended.

BigRedChief
09-28-2012, 09:07 PM
Finally voted. I couldn't bring myself to vote for executing an American without trial.

I'm just not willing to give the government that kind of unchecked power. Executing an American without trial is pretty damned close to murder and I don't want to think about how far that power could be extended.It is a damn slippery path that's for sure. But in this instance, I think it was warranted.

You pick up a gun or build a bomb and use it against America, I have no problem with the Seals or a drone taking you off the battlefield.