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Sorter
10-01-2012, 10:17 PM
A few have been asking "Why don't we switch to a 4-3" and most have been like myself and have been campaigning for a switch to the 1-gap.

Now, Direckshun has posted a nice breakdown of the difference between the two philosophies, and I'll link that later.

However, the 2-gap isn't a completely flawed scheme. To run it effectively in today's NFL, you need to have DEs like Tyson/Dorsey who are solid against the run but also can diagnose run vs. pass quickly and then provide an adequate pass rush (pushing the pocket or obtaining a double team while still progressing upfield).

For example, the Ravens and Mike Nolan (D-Coordinator for the Falcons) still run a 2-gap philosophy. (Nolan runs a hybrid 3-4 2-gap and a 4-3, but I can talk about that later).The difference is that while the Ravens run the 2-gap (albeit, having their DEs play the 4-tech instead of our 5), they utilize a fire-zone heavy concept. Meaning, they will pull DEs into coverage occasionally and bring pressure from safeties, nickel and dime backs. Their philosophy is to "Rush 5, drop 6".

For those that think our Defense sucks, you're entitled to your opinion but it is wrong. To those that think the 2-gap entirely sucks, you're wrong as well. The main problem with this defense IMO is the inability to get pressure from our base front (3-4 odd, DEs playing the 5-tech). To play our scheme effectively, you need smart DEs who can address the play quickly and accordingly. Simply put, our DEs are not smart enough or talented enough to do so in our base front. Granted, Allan Bailey is fine from our sub package (playing the 3-tech), but can't be relied on in our base front because he doesn't play well against the run or quickly diagnoses run v. pass enough to provide an adequate rush, much like our other DEs.

I know most will just see a wall of text, but this will probably help several understand some of our defensive flaws and why we struggle against the pass in our base set.

Cliffs:
1. Our 2-gap requires players we have not acquired; it can still be effective but is much more difficult to do than a 1-gap philosophy.
2. The responsibilities for a 2-gap DE and NT are much more difficult than those of a 1-gap.
3. I personally would like to see our team go to a 1-gap. Attacking defensive lineman are much better served than run-stoppers in today's NFL.

I know most will tl;dr, but if you disagree with it, post your thoughts. We have too much bitching on this site and not enough discussion about scheme, football philosophies, and concepts.

L.A. Chieffan
10-01-2012, 10:18 PM
THE 3-4 IS CASSELLS FAULT

Reaper16
10-01-2012, 10:19 PM
Welp, we need to draft more 5-techniques in the first round then. Who's in! Anybody?

Chiefspants
10-01-2012, 10:21 PM
Welp, we need to draft more 5-techniques in the first round then. Who's in! Anybody?

I think a project offensive tackle would suit the 2013 team nicely.

Psyko Tek
10-01-2012, 11:18 PM
ist n't the hole d line 1st rounders
and yeah I spelled it that way on purpose

chiefzilla1501
10-01-2012, 11:26 PM
Great post. I would agree with this.

Though, I still really liked what I saw from last year. The big differences (maybe I'll change that to "huge" differences) between this year and last year, though, are:

1) We need a fucking DC. Romeo has been slow to adjust. In Atlanta, they repeatedly ran the same pick play on our man-to-man. No adjustment. In San Diego, no excuse not to give Berry a little help when he struggled on Gates early. In San Diego and New Orleans, why did it take so long to realize that stunting our linemen would help create pressure? Too, too, too slow to adjust scheme.

2) Kelly Gregg. He was somewhat invisible, but our Nose Tackle play has been atrocious. And we all know when that happens, everything falls apart. Berry and DJ might play more effectively if the Nose Tackle did his job.

3) Soft players. Our players used to hit offensive players in the mouth. Now they're playing finesse, read and react.


I agree. The 2-gap can work. I don't think it's as much scheme as it is this idiotic idea on Pioli's part to put Romeo in charge of both the team and the defense.

Chocolate Hog
10-01-2012, 11:27 PM
Welp, we need to draft more 5-techniques in the first round then. Who's in! Anybody?

I'm paying to have a banner fly over Arrowhead that says "Fire Pioli Draft a 5 tech"

Sorter
10-01-2012, 11:29 PM
I'm paying to have a banner fly over Arrowhead that says "Fire Pioli Draft a 5 tech"

I'll chip in if we can fly said banner with a picture of Tyson Jackson on it.

Blick
10-02-2012, 12:01 AM
The smart people know that a 2 gap defense is more difficult to play than a one gap defense. That's why it's annoying that we run it.

Even IF you diagnose pass early, respecting the run as a 2 gap lineman has already set you up for failure on your pass rush because you have to play head up on the blocker to make sure you can discard your blocker to either side to play both of your gaps. You essentally end up blocking yourself that way by keeping offensive linemen in front of you instead of getting past them.

It just goes against the fundamental nature of defense...getting OFF blocks and attacking the football.

Sorter
10-02-2012, 12:07 AM
Yup. Blick, I find myself repeating this to a fuck ton of people here and I don't know what the requirements are for a sticky. That is why I made this thread.

As you said the fundamental flaws with the 2-gap is that is designed to stop the run and requires absolute monsters on your front 3 to provide a pass rush. To most of us that have some football knowledge, this is obvious. However, I keep seeing threads about the 4-3 and getting neg repped for telling people to use the search function. So, I make thread that hopefully educates people about defensive philosophies and our scheme. However, it will get buried and nobody will read it anyways.

Count Alex's Wins
10-02-2012, 12:08 AM
. Simply put, our DEs are not smart enough or talented enough to do so in our base front. Granted, Allan Bailey is fine from our sub package

Allen Bailey sucks. Believe it.

Two games this year he doesn't have a single QB pressure.

There are only two guys with a positive pass rush grade on this defense and one of them is not even Hali. It's DJ.

T-post Tom
10-02-2012, 12:09 AM
Bring back the Falcon. Or stop pounding square pegs into round holes:

1. Tyson Jackson - LSU: 4-3 LDE
2. Glenn Dorsey - LSU: 4-3 DT
3. Tamba Hali - PSU: 4-3 LDE (Some say undersized for NFL 4-3 DE. I disagree.)
4. Dontari Poe - Memphis: 4-3 Nose Tackle

Could be a great 4-3 with Tamba channeling the spirit of DT.

Sorter
10-02-2012, 12:11 AM
He has been underwhelming this year, especially for what I had expected out of him. However, he was directly responsible for Houston's game against NO. Watch the tape, you're fine at evaluating film.

FAX
10-02-2012, 12:11 AM
The additional problem is that, even if your D-ends diagnose the play, ideally we would like to see Dorsey and Jackson take on a double-team and still get a pass rush. Good luck with that.

FAX

Count Alex's Wins
10-02-2012, 12:12 AM
By the way, I agree that the 4-3 shit is stupid, though.

The main problem with the D is lack of talent, not scheme.

People want to believe we've built this uber roster but it's simply not true.

There's really only one good safety on the entire roster and he's gimping around like Sammy Knight.

Sorter
10-02-2012, 12:12 AM
Bring back the Falcon. Or stop pounding square pegs into round holes:

1. Tyson Jackson - LSU: 4-3 LDE
2. Glenn Dorsey - LSU: 4-3 DT
3. Tamba Hali - PSU: 4-3 LDE (Some say undersized for NFL 4-3 DE. I disagree.)
4. Dontari Poe - Memphis: 4-3 Nose Tackle

I don't know what you mean. If you want T-Jackson as our LDE in a 4-3, then you know nothing about football.

Sorter
10-02-2012, 12:12 AM
I mean that as nicely as can be, btw.

Pitt Gorilla
10-02-2012, 12:13 AM
Not completely relevant, but I thought Poe played very well on Sunday. He was consistently pushing his guy into the backfield.

Chiefspants
10-02-2012, 12:13 AM
Bring back the Falcon. Or stop pounding square pegs into round holes:

1. Tyson Jackson - LSU: 4-3 LDE
2. Glenn Dorsey - LSU: 4-3 DT
3. Tamba Hali - PSU: 4-3 LDE (Some say undersized for NFL 4-3 DE. I disagree.)
4. Dontari Poe - Memphis: 4-3 Nose Tackle

Where would Houston go in this scenario?

Count Alex's Wins
10-02-2012, 12:14 AM
He has been underwhelming this year, especially for what I had expected out of him. However, he was directly responsible for Houston's game against NO. Watch the tape, you're fine at evaluating film.

Houston was directly responsible for his game because he beat tackles one-on-one. No more, no less.

Allen Bailey is dogshit so far. He's a fun player to fantasize about but so far the fantasy far exceeds the reality. He's very below average and probably not that talented. A physical specimen with a love for raccoon burgers does not a good player make.

Sorter
10-02-2012, 12:14 AM
Not completely relevant, but I thought Poe played very well on Sunday. He was consistently pushing his guy into the backfield.

He's had flashes. Ironically, he looked better playing the 3-tech in our nickel package in the pre-season and looks better IMO playing the nose in our odd front in the regular season. Weird.

KCrockaholic
10-02-2012, 12:16 AM
By the way, I agree that the 4-3 shit is stupid, though.

The main problem with the D is lack of talent, not scheme.

People want to believe we've built this uber roster but it's simply not true.

There's really only one good safety on the entire roster and he's gimping around like Sammy Knight.

But it seems it could be partially because the talent is being misused. Plug this team into a 1-gap 3-4 with a DL of Poe, Powe, Dorsey, and there's potential for a legit solid DL. All of those guys were once 1 gapping DL. Now being asked to eat up space.

The safety situation is bad. Routt is average. Belcher is horrible if it's a pass play... So yeah there's some holes.

DJ is inconsistent.

Sorter
10-02-2012, 12:16 AM
A physical specimen with a love for raccoon burgers does not a good player make.

This made me LOL.

However, without Bailey, houston is probably getting help from a guard in most of those instances. If you watch the 1st game, especially after his 1st sack against Matt Ryan, you'll see that.

Not saying Bailey is a monster (though he could be IMO. I am human and do have bias on certain players). However, he's a serviceable 3-tech who can provide a push and do so while obtaining a double team.

Sorter
10-02-2012, 12:17 AM
But it seems it could be partially because the talent is being misused. Plug this team into a 1-gap 3-4 with a DL of Poe, Powe, Dorsey, and there's potential for a legit solid DL. All of those guys were once 1 gapping DL. Now being asked to eat up space.

Almost everyone but morons wants this team to play the 1-gap.

T-post Tom
10-02-2012, 12:20 AM
I don't know what you mean. If you want T-Jackson as our LDE in a 4-3, then you know nothing about football.

Right. Why would you draft a player to play the same position that he played in college? Makes no sense. I defer to your superior wisdom in all things football. Turn out the lights and take your bag of dicks with you when you leave.

Count Alex's Wins
10-02-2012, 12:21 AM
You're basically telling me the offense is doubling Bailey because he's some kind of threat to beat a man one-on-one.

We know that's not true.

It has nothing to do with Bailey and more to do with the blocking scheme.

If I want to neutralize an outside pass rusher I'm not assigning a guard to double down on him, I'm putting a tight end out there. How often do you see Tamba Hali getting doubled by a tackle and a guard? Pretty much never if he's rushing to the outside.

Allen Bailey is worthless, IMO. We could find an asshole off the street to do his job.

KCrockaholic
10-02-2012, 12:23 AM
Bailey has Vernon Gholston disease.

Count Alex's Wins
10-02-2012, 12:25 AM
But it seems it could be partially because the talent is being misused. Plug this team into a 1-gap 3-4 with a DL of Poe, Powe, Dorsey, and there's potential for a legit solid DL. All of those guys were once 1 gapping DL. Now being asked to eat up space.

The safety situation is bad. Routt is average. Belcher is horrible if it's a pass play... So yeah there's some holes.

DJ is inconsistent.

It's possible but Dorsey is a terrible pass rusher, and Poe and Powe really haven't shown that much either. We play these guys in sub situations and they haven't pressured the quarterback. The only guys doing it are linebackers, or someone getting there because the coverage holds.

We used to sub Jackson and Dorsey in our nickel in 2009 and they sucked ass trying to get up the field.

Simply put, we have some good run defenders on the team, but really only two pass rushers, and in a passing league that's going to kill you.

Sorter
10-02-2012, 12:25 AM
Right. Why would you draft a player to play the same position that he played in college? Makes no sense. I defer to your superior wisdom in all things football. Turn out the lights and take your bag of dicks with you when you leave.

In college, Tyson was effective as a run-stopping 4-3 end who projected as a 5-tech/4-tech 2-gap DE who primarily focused on stopping the run.

He has no pass rush moves. He has no quickness/explosiveness of the LOS. You're telling me that a guy who lacks those skills is going to turn into a productive player playing the 7 or 9-tech in a 4-3? WTF is wrong with you? Do you know anything about football? Are you BlackBob and are going to try and convince us that Jackson would be JPP in a 3-3-5? Seriously, go fuck yourself. I'm pretty positive and nice to people on this board, but if you're going to post dumb shit like that, I'll call you out. You're a fucking moron for thinking Tyson Jackson could be an effective pass rusher in any kind of defensive scheme.

chiefzilla1501
10-02-2012, 12:26 AM
Right. Why would you draft a player to play the same position that he played in college? Makes no sense. I defer to your superior wisdom in all things football. Turn out the lights and take your bag of dicks with you when you leave.

Pretty sure everyone projected him to be a 5-technique or an under tackle. He's not a good pass rusher and he's slow. Not qualities you want out of your DE.

Sorter
10-02-2012, 12:26 AM
Allen Bailey is worthless, IMO. We could find an asshole off the street to do his job.

We tried and our 1st round pick sucks ass even worse in the same position.

Count Alex's Wins
10-02-2012, 12:27 AM
He has no pass rush moves. He has no quickness/explosiveness of the LOS. me.

And yet the Patriotards informed us at Jackson's introductory press conference that he could play 3-tech inside on passing downs.

Sorter
10-02-2012, 12:27 AM
Pretty sure everyone projected him to be a 5-technique or an under tackle. He's not a good pass rusher and he's slow. Not qualities you want out of your DE.

Rep

Sorter
10-02-2012, 12:29 AM
And yet the Patriotards informed us at Jackson's introductory press conference that he could play 3-tech inside on passing downs.

I mean, I'm sure that was the ideal situation. Smae reason we drafted Poe. And Bailey.

The fact is, Belichick was the guy who broke down D-Lineman for NE. Not Pioli.

And that is why we suck but have been marginally improving at getting an interior pass rush from our DL in sub packages (2-3-6 if BB is lurking.)

T-post Tom
10-02-2012, 12:31 AM
Where would Houston go in this scenario?

Now that is an issue. And a byproduct of the "square peg in a round hole" dysfunctional state of the defensive front seven. Not sure how he fits in, but you certainly want his pass rushing skills to be used. He was a value pick and I'm excited to see how he evolves. I hope someone figures out how to maximize the skill on our defense.

Sorter
10-02-2012, 12:37 AM
Now that is an issue. And a byproduct of the "square peg in a round hole" dysfunctional state of the defensive front seven. Not sure how he fits in, but you certainly want his pass rushing skills to be used. He was a value pick and I'm excited to see how he evolves. I hope someone figures out how to maximize the skill on our defense.

Fuck, this is the 4th time I've posted this.

If we were to go to the 4-3, we would use Houston at the SAM spot, like Denver uses Von Miller.

mcaj22
10-02-2012, 12:37 AM
i have a hard time figuring out which turd was the crappier draft pick by Pioli

Javier Arenas or Allen Bailey. Because they are both terrible in sub package

i have been siding with Arenas cause he took that stain in the 2nd fucking round, over actual talent that could have helped this team

Sorter
10-02-2012, 12:40 AM
i have a hard time figuring out which turd was the crappier draft pick by Pioli

Javier Arenas or Allen Bailey. Because they are both terrible in sub package

i have been siding with Arenas cause he took that stain in the 2nd ****ing round, over actual talent that could have helped this team

Javier is worse than Allen IMO.

There is still a chance for Bailey to productive just rushing the passer ( he showed flashes against NE, Pitt, and GB last year).

Javier, IMO is a lost cause. We've talked about this before (a good idea in theory bc you need 3 corners) but it hasn't worked. Boykin from GA would have been nice to have over Wylie, who hasn't stepped foot on the field.
Revisionist history though.

mcaj22
10-02-2012, 12:42 AM
Javier is worse than Allen IMO.

There is still a chance for Bailey to productive just rushing the passer ( he showed flashes against NE, Pitt, and GB last year).

Javier, IMO is a lost cause. We've talked about this before (a good idea in theory bc you need 3 corners) but it hasn't worked. Boykin from GA would have been nice to have over Wylie, who hasn't stepped foot on the field.
Revisionist history though.

that Pioli's entire 4 years of drafting though, all Revisionist History.

Especially those 2009 and 2010 draft classes. Absolute Abortions. Dude is an awful scout/evaluator and tries to be smarter than he is by convincing people he picks these smart players that are better than actual athletic talent. And sadly, a lot of us bought into that crap philosophy he spews and without Tom Brady it translates to dog shit on the field because there is not enough athleticism/actual talent put out there.

Sorter
10-02-2012, 12:45 AM
that Pioli's entire 4 years of drafting though, all Revisionist History.

Especially those 2009 and 2010 draft classes. Absolute Abortions. Dude is an awful scout/evaluator and tries to be smarter than he is by convincing people he picks these smart players that are better than actual athletic talent. And sadly, a lot of us bought into that crap philosophy he spews and without Tom Brady it translates to dog shit on the field because there is not enough athleticism/actual talent put out there.

He picks out role players.

Guys who can be average, or slightly above. They can contribute but aren't going to be making plays to win/change games.

Pioli has never picked a star (Houston/Berry non-withstanding).

mcaj22
10-02-2012, 12:49 AM
He picks out role players.

Guys who can be average, or slightly above. They can contribute but aren't going to be making plays to win/change games.

Pioli has never picked a star (Houston/Berry non-withstanding).

in four years he passed over a lot of talent in the draft looking back.

a lot. like not even a monkey could fuck up some of those picks. People on this forum where smarter at predicting the better NFL talent they would have hoped the Chiefs drafted. That's how sad it is. How good this team could have been if we had a GM with half a brain that did not care about his own ego/Patriots Tree garbage philosophies.


case and point: Jake O Connell is still on the 53 man Chiefs roster. a 2009 draft pick by Pioli. In year 4. Why. Why Why why why why

Count Alex's Wins
10-02-2012, 12:50 AM
Javier is worse than Allen IMO.

There is still a chance for Bailey to productive just rushing the passer ( he showed flashes against NE, Pitt, and GB last year).

Javier, IMO is a lost cause. We've talked about this before (a good idea in theory bc you need 3 corners) but it hasn't worked. Boykin from GA would have been nice to have over Wylie, who hasn't stepped foot on the field.
Revisionist history though.

He got burned deep in NO, and Royal owned him Sunday.

He's another Pioli bust.

He's also the Thomas Jones of punt returners. If you need 5 yards he'll get you 12. If you need 20 yards, he'll get you 12.

Sorter
10-02-2012, 12:51 AM
Yup. When you really go back through the entirety of the drafts from 2009, you start to pull your hair out.

I mean, you go through every pick as if you're the GM and think of how it played out then. There are so many picks by Pioli that he should have been fired for, it is unreal.

Granted, you're not going to hit on every pick but wow. Taking DMC and Arenas over Gronk and Graham?

Sorter
10-02-2012, 12:54 AM
He got burned deep in NO, and Royal owned him Sunday.

He's another Pioli bust.

He's also the Thomas Jones of punt returners. If you need 5 yards he'll get you 12. If you need 20 yards, he'll get you 12.

Agree completely. I had high hopes for Javier when he arrived here and the reports from UA coaches were high on him. He has been sub-par and I hope that whoever our GM is next year drafts a solid nickel who excels in man coverage in the slot. Menzies might be the guy but if Crennel is here, Menzie won't be playing that position, IMO. Not saying he'l be a good player, but if he's here he isn't replacing Arenas.

Sorter
10-02-2012, 12:54 AM
He(Menzie) won't replace him due to the philosophy and position he was drafted to play IMO.

mcaj22
10-02-2012, 12:56 AM
Yup. When you really go back through the entirety of the drafts from 2009, you start to pull your hair out.

I mean, you go through every pick as if you're the GM and think of how it played out then. There are so many picks by Pioli that he should have been fired for, it is unreal.

Granted, you're not going to hit on every pick but wow. Taking DMC and Arenas over Gronk and Graham?

uhh Pioli TRADED UP to take Moeaki over fucking Graham

there are idiots on the board that still defend stupid crap like that for Pioli too.

All the players we could have had instead of McCluster and Arenas. Daryl Washington, Sean Lee, Navarro Bowman (the 2nd best MLBer in the game today) and Donald Butler who put a fucking clown suit on Cassel on Sunday. The list goes on and on. Actual talented players just passed over like they wouldnt be foundation pieces.

Sorter
10-02-2012, 12:58 AM
mcaj,

we've had this convo before. Pioli is not the talent evaluator we thought he was. Again, it is painful when you go through those drafts :(

mcaj22
10-02-2012, 01:01 AM
well it reinforces your topic of the 2 gap in that Pioli in 4 years passed on a lot of talent that could have helped our 2 gap scheme in the draft so he could fuel his own ego/his stupid philosophies.

at this point i am convinced that hes just a stubborn elitist that thinks hes the best GM in the NFL and his way of drafting actually works and somehow was the reason Tom Brady had all that success. That's how clouded he is.

Sorter
10-02-2012, 01:05 AM
Yup. I really, really hope somehow DeCosta comes here and shows what real 2-gap looks like. B that I mean, a 2-gap that plays today's NFL.

Admittedly, I'd like to see a 1-gap. I love that philosophy.

chiefzilla1501
10-02-2012, 01:10 AM
Sorry, I know that I am annoyingly an apologist for Haley.

But I still look back at the 2009 draft as the clear indicator that Haley was a coach micromanaged by a stubborn GM who only knows one way to do things. Haley brought in Clancy Pendergast. Pendergast's history is in the Under scheme, which could quickly turn into 1-gap. The 1-gap, incidentally, aligns with Clark Hunt's original intention to develop Steeler football (which is zone blitz).

I really do feel that Haley, if he had his way, would have installed more of a 1-gap. If you'll recall, Haley allegedly threw an absolute shit fit when Tyson Jackson was drafted. Why do you think that is? One explanation is that Haley's Dad warned Todd about Cassel and he was pissed they didn't take a QB. I think Haley was pissed because Tyson Jackson basically put the stake in the ground that said "we're going 2-gap. Deal with it."

FAX
10-02-2012, 01:13 AM
Sorry, I know that I am annoyingly an apologist for Haley.

But I still look back at the 2009 draft as the clear indicator that Haley was a coach micromanaged by a stubborn GM who only knows one way to do things. Haley brought in Clancy Pendergast. Pendergast's history is in the Under scheme, which could quickly turn into 1-gap. The 1-gap, incidentally, aligns with Clark Hunt's original intention to develop Steeler football (which is zone blitz).

I really do feel that Haley, if he had his way, would have installed more of a 1-gap. If you'll recall, Haley allegedly threw an absolute shit fit when Tyson Jackson was drafted. Why do you think that is? One explanation is that Haley's Dad warned Todd about Cassel and he was pissed they didn't take a QB. I think Haley was pissed because Tyson Jackson basically put the stake in the ground that said "we're going 2-gap. Deal with it."

Regarding Haley and the Jackson pick ... the reports that came out afterwards stated that Haley wanted best available player with that pick (who knows who he wanted?) but was overruled by Dr. Evil and ... well, we know the rest of the story.

You may be correct about the defensive scheme idea, though. Perhaps Dr. Evil had been planning to bring Roleo in all along?

FAX

Sorter
10-02-2012, 01:13 AM
Totally agree. I am a Haley fan and think that he would have been better with a different GM.

That being said, Pendergast was horrible for the most part. Too conservative in late game situations. Horton though, would have been awesome.

Count Alex's Wins
10-02-2012, 01:18 AM
The more shit that surfaces with this franchise, the more clear it becomes that Haley wasn't that big of a problem.

Clark Hunt should re-hire him and give him GM powers. :)

chiefzilla1501
10-02-2012, 01:18 AM
Totally agree. I am a Haley fan and think that he would have been better with a different GM.

That being said, Pendergast was horrible for the most part. Too conservative in late game situations. Horton though, would have been awesome.

I didn't like Pendergast either. But a few things to keep in mind. He's not a 2-gap coordinator, but Pioli forced it on him. Secondly, he was a very late hire, so it's possible Haley envisioned having Pendergast coach the 4-3 Under as a transition to the next coach, who could then install a 1-gap or zone blitz.

In either event... I feel like this is a strong case that Haley wanted to run 1-gap but was overruled.

J Diddy
10-02-2012, 01:22 AM
Where would Houston go in this scenario?

Thinking about trading him for a backup center

mcaj22
10-02-2012, 01:24 AM
firing Chan Gailey a week before the season starts didnt do Haley any favors either.

Only for Pioli to bring his old pals with similar old head egos in the following season

so essentially 4 years of Pioli with no consistency in the offensive or defensive schemes for the player talent to adjust.

Sorter
10-02-2012, 01:27 AM
firing Chan Gailey a week before the season starts didnt do Haley any favors either.

Only for Pioli to bring his old pals with similar old head egos in the following season

so essentially 4 years of Pioli with no consistency in the offensive or defensive schemes for the player talent to adjust.

I was fine with the Weiss hire. Haley was at first initially.

I truly believe that they both were at odds over Cassel and over the power Pioli had invested in both of them.

oRYMANo
10-02-2012, 01:35 AM
Romeo tried bringing pressure on Rivers early it wasn't getting through. Battle was in pass blocking too. Chargers were ready for delay blitzes like they ran on the saints. There o-line had no problem until the second half. Which i didn't see I just know there was a few sacks in the 2nd.

oRYMANo
10-02-2012, 01:42 AM
On a side note a saw several plays in a row that the chiefs NT man handled the center think it was dontari.

T-post Tom
10-02-2012, 02:21 AM
In college, Tyson was effective as a run-stopping 4-3 end who projected as a 5-tech/4-tech 2-gap DE who primarily focused on stopping the run.

He has no pass rush moves. He has no quickness/explosiveness of the LOS. You're telling me that a guy who lacks those skills is going to turn into a productive player playing the 7 or 9-tech in a 4-3? WTF is wrong with you? Do you know anything about football? Are you BlackBob and are going to try and convince us that Jackson would be JPP in a 3-3-5? Seriously, go **** yourself. I'm pretty positive and nice to people on this board, but if you're going to post dumb shit like that, I'll call you out. You're a ****ing moron for thinking Tyson Jackson could be an effective pass rusher in any kind of defensive scheme.

Another know-it-all gas bag that likes to insult others but gets sand in her vagina when someone pushes back. I'm usually nice to others here, but not when their initial greeting involves telling me that I don't know shit about football. Maybe you're not as nice, positive or smart as you think you are.

I can imagine that Pioli might have been drunk on visions of Richard Seymour when he reached for Jackson at #3. But the reality for Jackson was that he never got a chance to develop as a pass rusher. He was thrust into a new position and scheme that demanded he focus on new priorities. (Like "eating blockers".) Truly a baptism by fire with high expectations for the immediate starter.

I don't see him lacking the size and athleticism to be a DE in a 4-3. Maybe not an elite pass-rushing DE you'd expect at the #3 pick. But again, who else but Pioli would have picked him that high? He would just need to improve his pass rushing techniques. And that would have been much easier if it had been emphasized and better coached from the beginning of his NFL career.

So who's to say that Jackson could not have developed into a legit 4-3 LDE if given the chance? You? You're not that smart. If you were any smarter than the rest of us idiots, you wouldn't be hanging around here debating this with me. Nobody knows for sure. I put Jackson at LDE based on the current roster and a hypothetical 4-3 scheme. I like the thought of Dorsey and Poe at DT with Hali rushing on the edge. So Jackson defaults to LDE. The Seahawks have been able to make a legit LDE out of former DT Red Bryant. I don't see why it's impossible to believe that Jackson could have been coached up to expand on his successful SEC run as a good LDE. To me, Jackson had the more plausible upside for the position. But hey, don't let me slow you down with reason and real world pragmatism.

WhiteWhale
10-02-2012, 07:05 AM
Another know-it-all gas bag that likes to insult others but gets sand in her vagina when someone pushes back. I'm usually nice to others here, but not when their initial greeting involves telling me that I don't know shit about football. Maybe you're not as nice, positive or smart as you think you are.

I can imagine that Pioli might have been drunk on visions of Richard Seymour when he reached for Jackson at #3. But the reality for Jackson was that he never got a chance to develop as a pass rusher. He was thrust into a new position and scheme that demanded he focus on new priorities. (Like "eating blockers".) Truly a baptism by fire with high expectations for the immediate starter.

I don't see him lacking the size and athleticism to be a DE in a 4-3. Maybe not an elite pass-rushing DE you'd expect at the #3 pick. But again, who else but Pioli would have picked him that high? He would just need to improve his pass rushing techniques. And that would have been much easier if it had been emphasized and better coached from the beginning of his NFL career.

So who's to say that Jackson could not have developed into a legit 4-3 LDE if given the chance? You? You're not that smart. If you were any smarter than the rest of us idiots, you wouldn't be hanging around here debating this with me. Nobody knows for sure. I put Jackson at LDE based on the current roster and a hypothetical 4-3 scheme. I like the thought of Dorsey and Poe at DT with Hali rushing on the edge. So Jackson defaults to LDE. The Seahawks have been able to make a legit LDE out of former DT Red Bryant. I don't see why it's impossible to believe that Jackson could have been coached up to expand on his successful SEC run as a good LDE. To me, Jackson had the more plausible upside for the position. But hey, don't let me slow you down with reason and real world pragmatism.

If Kc theoretically switched to a 4-3, Jackson can fuck off because Houston and Hali would be our DE's. They're sure not going to play the WILL or SAM in a 4-3.

bricks
10-02-2012, 07:26 AM
The smart people know that a 2 gap defense is more difficult to play than a one gap defense. That's why it's annoying that we run it.

Even IF you diagnose pass early, respecting the run as a 2 gap lineman has already set you up for failure on your pass rush because you have to play head up on the blocker to make sure you can discard your blocker to either side to play both of your gaps. You essentally end up blocking yourself that way by keeping offensive linemen in front of you instead of getting past them.

It just goes against the fundamental nature of defense...getting OFF blocks and attacking the football.

That's a minor thing that can be fixed.

The D-lineman should be able to recognize what type of play is going to occur(whether it's run or pass) by looking at the stances of the opposing O-lineman.

Im just gonna say our Dlineman are not instinctively smart because they don't anticipate well enough. Instead, they are too caught up within the philosophy of the scheme itself.

FAX
10-02-2012, 08:11 AM
That's a minor thing that can be fixed.

The D-lineman should be able to recognize what type of play is going to occur(whether it's run or pass) by looking at the stances of the opposing O-lineman.

Im just gonna say our Dlineman are not instinctively smart because they don't anticipate well enough. Instead, they are too caught up within the philosophy of the scheme itself.

Uhhhh.

I think they've had "technique" drilled into their heads since Roleo arrived. That and the fact that they've been taught that run defense is their main responsibility is causing our lack of d-line pressure.

Roleo's defenses have never been known as "attacking" defenses anyhow. He's known for the bend-don't-break philosophy while waiting for the offense to make a mistake. Of course, he refined that approach while working with the Patriots and Manning was their nemesis during those days. He knew that pressure against Manning would only lead to more completions in the long run.

FAX

htismaqe
10-02-2012, 08:23 AM
If Kc theoretically switched to a 4-3, Jackson can **** off because Houston and Hali would be our DE's. They're sure not going to play the WILL or SAM in a 4-3.

Jackson could probably play tackle in a 4-3.

RunKC
06-01-2013, 01:31 AM
Posted via Mobile Device

Sorter
06-01-2013, 01:44 AM
Posted via Mobile Device

wut

RunKC
06-01-2013, 06:12 AM
Wow that didn't work out. My mobile sucks ass.

I was gonna say, Sorter you wanted them to play 1 gap. Looks like you're getting your wish.

Sorter
06-12-2013, 12:35 AM
Wow that didn't work out. My mobile sucks ass.

I was gonna say, Sorter you wanted them to play 1 gap. Looks like you're getting your wish.

You're goddamn right.

Bowser
06-12-2013, 12:42 AM
Wow that didn't work out. My mobile sucks ass.

I was gonna say, Sorter you wanted them to play 1 gap. Looks like you're getting your wish.

Yeah, count me in on that bandwagon as well. Really looking forward to what we can do, especially considering we now have corners not named Brandon Flowers that can play press man.

Sorter
06-12-2013, 12:47 AM
Yeah, count me in on that bandwagon as well. Really looking forward to what we can do, especially considering we now have corners not named Brandon Flowers that can play press man.

I still would rather have had Javier playing inside than Flowers +Dunta outside against multiple personnel right now.

Probably because I'm still scarred from memories of Dunta get worked by McCluster.

Bowser
06-12-2013, 12:52 AM
I still would rather have had Javier playing inside than Flowers +Dunta outside against multiple personnel right now.

Probably because I'm still scarred from memories of Dunta get worked by McCluster.

Heh, just chalk that up to Dunta having a bad day.

It would have been nice to keep Arenas as our fourth CB/blitzing corner, for sure. Certainly better than trading him for a goddamned fullback. :shake:

I have no reason to think this is a good idea, but I like the thought of Dunta being our starting free safety and moving him down to nickel back on nickel/dime packages, kind of like what we did with Jerome Woods. Would that be feasible in an attack style 1-gap, especially considering our personnel?

Count Alex's Wins
06-12-2013, 12:54 AM
Heh, just chalk that up to Dunta having a bad day.


He had a bunch of shitty games last year.

I hate Sean Smith and I think Cunta is probably worse.

Bowser
06-12-2013, 12:59 AM
He had a bunch of shitty games last year.

I hate Sean Smith and I think Cunta is probably worse.


I think Sean Smith is going to make or break us on D on a ton of plays. I haven't watched a ton of his stuff, but he does look to get beat in man a bunch. But he's young and has all the measurables you'd want in a corner.

I liked Dunta a lot more a couple/few years back, that's why I like the idea of him moving to free safety rather than just being a straight corner/nickel guy.

Sorter
06-12-2013, 01:01 AM
Heh, just chalk that up to Dunta having a bad day.

It would have been nice to keep Arenas as our fourth CB/blitzing corner, for sure. Certainly better than trading him for a goddamned fullback. :shake:

I have no reason to think this is a good idea, but I like the thought of Dunta being our starting free safety and moving him down to nickel back on nickel/dime packages, kind of like what we did with Jerome Woods. Would that be feasible in an attack style 1-gap, especially considering our personnel?

Probably. The interesting thing is that Sutton does use a 2-3-6 variant (various alignments as opposed to the front Romeo utilized) quite a bit as his pass D personnel.

From the OTA reports, I haven't seen anything about Dunta playing FS. I think that that could be a better fit than him playing inside. I don't know enough/watched enough of Nolan's Defense to know whether or not he was playing press on the inside. I'd assume so, given his(Nolan's) background.

I think if you were really going to utilize Dunta + Javier, you'd utilize quite a few fire-zone concepts to create adequate matchups for them as blitzers. That's why I was really high on Ray Horton coming here.

Sorter
06-12-2013, 01:04 AM
Now, we may see that but instead of pure fire-zone concepts, we'll see more combo blitzes in which various players are playing zone and man and still using unique blitz concepts (think fire-zones with man up top and LBs dropping into zone and the opposite).

I do think that we're going to primarily see a majority of man-blitz oriented philosophies. I really have been slacking on doing my Sutton research.

Chocolate Hog
06-12-2013, 10:58 AM
There was no flaw with Romeos defense.

mcaj22
06-12-2013, 12:57 PM
i still think Dunta doesnt have a place on this team

he cant play CB outside or inside
he has one leg now, so hes very slow
cant cover anyone WR, Slot WR, TE, FB, HB
and he probably has no range to play Safety
and hes injury prone.

what hes good at
Hitting and Tackling, but every time he makes a hard hit now hes out 2 weeks with a concussion so he cant even do that anymore.

He will be this years Stanford Routt for sure. A victim that people will pick on and pick on all game. A good measuring stick of Dunta is "If Dexter McCluster can beat you all game in a 1 on 1 matchup, than a lot of people can and will" And that was Dunta last year in a nutshell.

Sean Smith should be the full time CB2 and Tysyn Hartman should be the FS.

Sorter
06-12-2013, 01:02 PM
Pretty much sums up how I feel about him.

mcaj22
06-12-2013, 01:17 PM
he just has too many "cons" than pros at this stage of his career, hes not what he used to be in Houston. He's a huge shell of himself, I think a bigger shell than what even Routt was.

Sean Smith and Hartman are young, with huge upside and potential to get better and I say fuck it, throw them into the fire and dont give bad players starters snaps just cause of their "name" and reputation

BossChief
06-12-2013, 03:00 PM
i still think Dunta doesnt have a place on this team

he cant play CB outside or inside
he has one leg now, so hes very slow
cant cover anyone WR, Slot WR, TE, FB, HB
and he probably has no range to play Safety
and hes injury prone.

what hes good at
Hitting and Tackling, but every time he makes a hard hit now hes out 2 weeks with a concussion so he cant even do that anymore.

He will be this years Stanford Routt for sure. A victim that people will pick on and pick on all game. A good measuring stick of Dunta is "If Dexter McCluster can beat you all game in a 1 on 1 matchup, than a lot of people can and will" And that was Dunta last year in a nutshell.

Sean Smith should be the full time CB2 and Tysyn Hartman should be the FS.
I agree. Still can't believe how many here loved that signing.

We are gonna pay him almost as much as Dumervil is gonna get from Baltimore.

BossChief
06-12-2013, 03:05 PM
he just has too many "cons" than pros at this stage of his career, hes not what he used to be in Houston. He's a huge shell of himself, I think a bigger shell than what even Routt was.

Sean Smith and Hartman are young, with huge upside and potential to get better and I say **** it, throw them into the fire and dont give bad players starters snaps just cause of their "name" and reputation

I think Bin Laden is gonna show up for us and play well as the other safety...what do you see in Hartman?...I guess I can see him not even making the team.