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BigRedChief
10-09-2012, 04:58 PM
A little early but I was just sitting in the park this afternoon when a small group of runner's came by me and it was Ryan running along the waters edge. They were running a pretty damn good clip. A quick pace for a jog that's for sure.

WTF is he doing his debate prep in St. Pete?

On Saturday night Romney held a big rally about 1/2 mile from my house and right across from where Ryan was running.

patteeu
10-09-2012, 05:11 PM
I don't expect any big gaffes from the Vice Gaffe Machine, but if he tries to slander Ryan or the Romney plan, I think he'll end up getting clowned just like his boss did.

LOCOChief
10-09-2012, 05:11 PM
Who started the presidential debate thread? I can't seem to find it.

Detoxing
10-09-2012, 05:12 PM
I fully expect Bidden to get demolished. Ryan looks like he could debate circles around the ol' man.

BigRedChief
10-09-2012, 05:13 PM
Who started the presidential debate thread? I can't seem to find it.You think its some karma/jinx thing if someone else starts the thread?

LOCOChief
10-09-2012, 05:16 PM
You think its some karma/jinx thing if someone else starts the thread?

It couldn't hurt to have the same person start it imo.

BigRedChief
10-09-2012, 05:16 PM
I fully expect Bidden to get demolished. Ryan looks like he could debate circles around the ol' man.It seems to me by listening to the talking heads that Biden is considered a great gaffe producer but that most people are underestimating Bidens debate skills. Citing his performances at the Democratic debates when he was running for President.

blaise
10-09-2012, 05:22 PM
Thank goodness it's not at a high altitude.

patteeu
10-09-2012, 05:25 PM
I fully expect Bidden to get demolished. Ryan looks like he could debate circles around the ol' man.

I don't think it will be that bad, really. I think Biden is a better debater than Obama. He shares Obama's biggest problems though, a dismal record and a lack of coherent plans for the future. If he doesn't overextend himself too much in his efforts to mischaracterize the Romney/Ryan platform, he'll be OK. If he gets too aggressive though, I think it will backfire.

patteeu
10-09-2012, 05:26 PM
Who started the presidential debate thread? I can't seem to find it.

It was some other kind of debate thread that was turned into the debate thread rather than making a new one.

Edit: Look for DaFace's thread about the Presidential Debate Drinking Game.

HonestChieffan
10-09-2012, 05:29 PM
Biden wont get slashed. He is an old hand at this stuff. Ryan, as good as he is, and he is 10x the intellect of Biden, will have his hands full.

Id expect Biden to go full out Chicago and throw out every misleading and wrong characterization he can get into his allotted time, assume Ryan will want to refute them all and burn his time up, then launch into a new round of bullshit.

LOCOChief
10-09-2012, 05:37 PM
It was some other kind of debate thread that was turned into the debate thread rather than making a new one.

Edit: Look for DaFace's thread about the Presidential Debate Drinking Game.


It would've nice if DaFace had started the VP Debate Drinking Game but I guess that idea is blown to hell.

qabbaan
10-09-2012, 05:56 PM
Biden will have a lot of prepared lines, and I expect he will attack as a test for Obama's angry persona coming up.

RINGLEADER
10-09-2012, 06:08 PM
Well the burden shifts to an extent onto Romney and Ryan. Their detractors want to write a story about how Ryan isn't up for it, how he has an anger issue, and how he doesn't understand some mundane fact or the other. They also want to write the "They're back" narrative.

As long as Ryan stays away from that and the debate is a push then that's good for Romeny. If Ryan isn't prepared with attacks on 47%/etc. from Biden you'll get the "They're back" stories.

BigRedChief
10-09-2012, 06:10 PM
Where Ryan is staying tonight for debate prep. From the Vinoy website. It's all pink.
http://blogs.miaminewtimes.com/riptide/vinoy.jpg
Where he was running, along the concrete path in the foreground. I like to go out here after work and watch the sunset. This is a cell phone pic.
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7272/6870439646_58f17faee1_c.jpg

mlyonsd
10-09-2012, 06:11 PM
Where Ryan is staying tonight for debate prep.
Not that you're stalking him or anything. :p

BigRedChief
10-09-2012, 06:18 PM
Not that you're stalking him or anything. :pHey, I was just minding my own business, he came into my space.:harumph:

BTW, found out later that is the hotel where Romney stayed during the convention.

fan4ever
10-09-2012, 06:19 PM
Biden wont get slashed. He is an old hand at this stuff. Ryan, as good as he is, and he is 10x the intellect of Biden, will have his hands full.

Id expect Biden to go full out Chicago and throw out every misleading and wrong characterization he can get into his allotted time, assume Ryan will want to refute them all and burn his time up, then launch into a new round of bullshit.

Couldn't have said it better myself; Biden won't be shown up like his boss; he's the consumate bullshit artist and he's loaded for bear.

WilliamTheIrish
10-09-2012, 08:41 PM
Is somebody posting posting vacation pics? Because if so... The community will not stand for that.

HonestChieffan
10-09-2012, 08:42 PM
Is somebody posting posting vacation pics? Because if so... The community will not stand for that.


This is me at the county nut fry and wine festival

http://i621.photobucket.com/albums/tt300/renonow/vowel.jpg

BigRedChief
10-09-2012, 08:50 PM
Is somebody posting posting vacation pics? Because if so... The community will not stand for that.nope, just neighborhood pics.:p

mnchiefsguy
10-11-2012, 03:21 PM
I think Biden has a lower threshold of expectations tonight. Most expect him to screw up at least once, so more of the pressure is on Ryan.

Iowanian
10-11-2012, 03:39 PM
I expect Biden to come out in attack dog mode. He'll come out swinging for the fences, will sling dirt and will eventually spittle all over himself and say something stupid.

I think Paul Ryan is a seasoned enough politician to counter-punch most of Biden's blabber and by the end of the night will tie a knot in Biden's ass. I also think he'll come out aggressive.

Romney needed to be seen as likable and in-tune with America. Ryan will do some of the dirty work tonight.

mnchiefsguy
10-11-2012, 03:45 PM
I expect Biden to come out in attack dog mode. He'll come out swinging for the fences, will sling dirt and will eventually spittle all over himself and say something stupid.

I think Paul Ryan is a seasoned enough politician to counter-punch most of Biden's blabber and by the end of the night will tie a knot in Biden's ass. I also think he'll come out aggressive.

Romney needed to be seen as likable and in-tune with America. Ryan will do some of the dirty work tonight.

Seems very plausible to me. Ryan also seems to be the type that will take advantage of any Biden gaffes and make him look even more foolish than he already does.

Question is....how many voters will tune in tonight?

jjjayb
10-11-2012, 04:07 PM
Seems very plausible to me. Ryan also seems to be the type that will take advantage of any Biden gaffes and make him look even more foolish than he already does.

Question is....how many voters will tune in tonight?

At least one. <-----------------

Direckshun
10-11-2012, 04:56 PM
Will be interesting to see what these two can do.

They are perfectly created to take on each other's weaknesses.

Biden is a values-laden foreign policy expert. Ryan a details-laden economics expert.

Could be a ton of fun.

AustinChief
10-11-2012, 05:04 PM
Will be interesting to see what these two can do.

They are perfectly created to take on each other's weaknesses.

Biden is a values-laden foreign policy expert. Ryan a details-laden economics expert.

Could be a ton of fun.

Biden's big problem is the current state of foreign affairs. With Libya, Yemen, Egypt, Pakistan, Iran, Syria-Turkey, Afghanistan(green on blue violence) etc... foreign policy is (at least in the most current news) not a strong suit for this administration.

Ryan certainly doesn't have a record of his own to run on here but it may be enough to point out all the current "failures". (I put that in quotes because it is all about perception RIGHT NOW and not whether you think that is the reality or not)

Direckshun
10-11-2012, 05:05 PM
That said, if I'm Biden (and for all you guys know, I am -- you've never seen me in the same room as him...), I keep singing the praises of the original Ryan budget. Because that thing is a nightmare for a Presidential campaign to sell in the United States.

Even if Ryan backs off parts of it, and says something like "I've since revised the parts on Medicare to not include today's seniors" I'd rebut that he still included it in the original thinking at one point that it was wise policy, and that that is indicative of where his priorities lie, which suggests dire consequences for future policy. (If Ryan attempts to escape by saying his views are not necessarily Romney's views, I'd remind him that god forbid, should something happen to Romney, you're the guy we're stuck with. That's why we have veeps, that's why we're on this stage. Otherwise nobody cares about us.)

Before Romney embraced the Moderate Mitt persona, he endorsed the Ryan budget at one point, and selected the guy to be his goddamn Veep. Marry him to it.

displacedinMN
10-11-2012, 05:06 PM
I saw that pic of the beach. Why would anyone want to watch tv with a view like that.

I think I will watch MASH reruns

Direckshun
10-11-2012, 05:12 PM
Biden's big problem is the current state of foreign affairs. With Libya, Yemen, Egypt, Pakistan, Iran, Syria-Turkey etc... foreign policy is (at least in the most current news) not a strong suit for this administration.

Ryan certainly doesn't have a record of his own to run on here but it may be enough to point out all the current "failures". (I put that in quotes because it is all about perception RIGHT NOW and not whether you think that is the reality or not)

No doubt the attack in Libya has been handled really shitty.

But the administration has been given incredibly complex issues in the Middle East, and did its best to cling to the least shitty options. When Syria is murdering their own civilians, there's really nothing you can do that's """"good"""", which is also true of our Libyan campaign, Egypt's popular revolution, Yemen's revolution, Pakistan's instability and harboring of enemies, Iran's brutal crackdown.... Afghanistan's the only true cluster**** we could have had any major hand in, and man -- you want to talk about nothing but shit options.

So you're dead right -- it's a ton easier to criticize how things are going down in the Middle East than it is to offer solutions. Blah.

If I'm Biden, I'd argue the following accomplishments: we withdrew out of Iraq. We're withdrawing out of Afghanistan. We killed OBL on a ballsy mission that delivered on a key Obama 2008 platform -- the guy puts his money where his mouth is. We neutered Qaddafi without putting our boots on the ground, we applied backroom pressure to Mubarak, and we've economically crippled Iran. We've chased terrorists everywhere in the Middle East, essentially wiping out AQ in Afghanistan.

Of course, you know me AC. I've despised plenty of what we've done in the Middle East. But if I'm Biden, that's a lot of the stuff I run on.

AustinChief
10-11-2012, 05:16 PM
That said, if I'm Biden (and for all you guys know, I am -- you've never seen me in the same room as him...), I keep singing the praises of the original Ryan budget. Because that thing is a nightmare for a Presidential campaign to sell in the United States.

Even if Ryan backs off parts of it, and says something like "I've since revised the parts on Medicare to not include today's seniors" I'd rebut that he still included it in the original thinking at one point that it was wise policy, and that that is indicative of where his priorities lie, which suggests dire consequences for future policy. (If Ryan attempts to escape by saying his views are not necessarily Romney's views, I'd remind him that god forbid, should something happen to Romney, you're the guy we're stuck with. That's why we have veeps, that's why we're on this stage. Otherwise nobody cares about us.)

Before Romney embraced the Moderate Mitt persona, he endorsed the Ryan budget at one point, and selected the guy to be his goddamn Veep.

And if I'm Ryan (I could be!.. ok no I couldn't, I hate Green Bay) then I EASILY counter that by bringing up any number of policies that Biden has held in the past and since changed. Or I simply bring up his own words he used against Obama in the primaries in 2008.

The "you once said this" argument is easily defeated in a debate .. you can use that for your ads but get called out immediately in person. Just point out that all politicians "evolve" as Obama himself has said regarding numerous changes he has made. (Same sex marriage, gitmo, etc)

RINGLEADER
10-11-2012, 05:17 PM
Will be interesting to see what these two can do.

They are perfectly created to take on each other's weaknesses.

Biden is a values-laden foreign policy expert. Ryan a details-laden economics expert.

Could be a ton of fun.


I agree, but Biden has to support real positions that are easy to stick pins in.

Why raise taxes when the economy is bad, Obama said that would be a bad thing when the economy was doing better. We're not trying something that's been done in the past, we want to work to make the tax system fairer and simpler and make sure that those who don't need deductions aren't able to use them.

Do you really want to put your healthcare in the hands of 15 unelected political appointees? You call them "experts" but I call them government bureaucrats. I don't want a bureaucrat standing between my mother and her doctor. They're not going to care about my well-being, they're going to care about their own well-being.

Foreign policy has deteriorated of the past few weeks as the Obama foreign policy has collapsed. You got Osama bin Laden and that's a good thing, but you seemed to think the war was over when he died and now we have American ambassadors - who were begging for additional security - being told by your state department that they couldn't have them.

According to what the president said last week, your plan for Medicare is to extend its life for eight years. That's your plan. Eight more years. We have a different approach that will ensure that Medicare is there to help all of our elderly this generation and future generations. Your plan, according to the president, is to extend the program eight years and after that you have no plan.

There is no $5 trillion tax cut. The study you cite in your ads was revised to accurately reflect our plan and it said it was revenue neutral. Even your own campaign manager came out earlier today and admitted that there was no $5 trillion tax cut.

Governor Romney was speaking about election strategy and he admitted last week that regardless of what he intended to say it was wrong and he apologized to everyone. Look, we all make mistakes sometimes when we talk. One time the Vice President gave a speech that we found out later was plagerized, but he owned up to it and apologized, just like Governor Romney did.

Romney/Ryan have the luxury of talking in generalities, but he better have some clear and concise facts when he's asked for those specifics because you know it's coming...

Direckshun
10-11-2012, 05:19 PM
And if I'm Ryan (I could be!.. ok no I couldn't, I hate Green Bay) then I EASILY counter that by bringing up any number of policies that Biden has held in the past and since changed. Or I simply bring up his own words he used against Obama in the primaries in 2008.

The "you once said this" argument is easily defeated in a debate .. you can use that for your ads but get called out immediately in person. Just point out that all politicians "evolve" as Obama himself has said regarding numerous changes he has made. (Same sex marriage, gitmo, etc)

Don't care. I just keep singing the praises of the Ryan budget.

This was a severely conservative, meticulously constructed, ideologically rigid blueprint that was endorsed by Romney.

If you want to take an ax to the social safety net, have at it. But you're not winning shit in a Presidential election.

AustinChief
10-11-2012, 05:19 PM
If I'm Biden, I'd argue the following accomplishments: we withdrew out of Iraq. We're withdrawing out of Afghanistan. We killed OBL on a ballsy mission that delivered on a key Obama 2008 platform -- the guy puts his money where his mouth is. We neutered Qaddafi without putting our boots on the ground, we applied backroom pressure to Mubarak, and we've economically crippled Iran. We've chased terrorists everywhere in the Middle East, essentially wiping out AQ in Afghanistan.


The only one of those that isn't going to bite you in the ass in a debate is Iran. That'd be the only one I would lean on if I was Biden. The rest all have substantial events that have been in the news recently that make the Administrations policies look like failures. Again, this isn't about reality, just what is on peoples minds regarding perception.

Direckshun
10-11-2012, 05:23 PM
I agree, but Biden has to support real positions that are easy to stick pins in.

Why raise taxes when the economy is bad, Obama said that would be a bad thing when the economy was doing better.

Do you really want to put your healthcare in the hands of 15 unelected political appointees? You call them "experts" but I call the government bureaucrats.

Foreign policy has deteriorated of the past few weeks as the Obama foreign policy has collapsed. You got Osama bin Laden and that's a good thing, but you seemed to think the war was over when he died and now we have American ambassadors - who were begging for additional security - being told by your state department that they couldn't have them.

According to what the president said last week, your plan for Medicare is to extend its life for eight years. That's your plan. Eight more years. We have a different approach.

There is no $5 trillion tax cut. The study you cite in your ads was revised to accurately reflect our plan and it said it was revenue neutral. Even your own campaign manager came out earlier today and admitted that there was no $5 trillion tax cut.

Governor Romney was speaking about election strategy and he admitted last week that regardless of what he intended to say it was wrong and he apologized to everyone. Look, we all make mistakes sometimes when we talk. One time the Vice President gave a speech that we found out later was plagerized, but he owned up to it and apologized, just like Governor Romney did.

Romney/Ryan have the luxury of talking in generalities, but he better have some clear and concise facts when he's asked for those specifics because you know it's coming...

Not a bad listing of talking points.

Each can be rebutted, and done so effectively, but your central point is correct -- it's a ton more difficult to defend a record than defend a mere platform.

My rule of thumb for this debate would be, the more you can talk about Ryan's budget, the better for Biden.

I simply don't think it's a winner, and I earnestly believe you folks agree with me on that.

RINGLEADER
10-11-2012, 05:24 PM
Don't care. I just keep singing the praises of the Ryan budget.

This was a severely conservative, meticulously constructed, ideologically rigid blueprint that was endorsed by Romney.

If you want to take an ax to the social safety net, have at it. But you're not winning shit in a Presidential election.

Only problem is that it isn't Romney's plan and it's way too easy to blow holes in the Obama record.

AustinChief
10-11-2012, 05:24 PM
Don't care. I just keep singing the praises of the Ryan budget.

This was a severely conservative, meticulously constructed, ideologically rigid blueprint that was endorsed by Romney.

If Ryan is as good a debater/presenter as he should be(and I suspect he is) that would be a massive loss for Biden. He'd make him look like a silly old man dwelling on something that no longer applies. Ryan just needs to frame his response as if Biden is making another famous gaffe and make the point I stated earlier then reframe Biden again as making a gaffe. Viewing public would eat that up.

People aren't dumb enough to buy what Biden sells wholesale and they aren't smart enough to understand the nuance that you are trying to get across that it represents Ryan and Romney's core beliefs if they once were ok with a budget like that.

My $.02.

Direckshun
10-11-2012, 05:24 PM
The only one of those that isn't going to bite you in the ass in a debate is Iran. That'd be the only one I would lean on if I was Biden. The rest all have substantial events that have been in the news recently that make the Administrations policies look like failures. Again, this isn't about reality, just what is on peoples minds regarding perception.

Absolutely.

And like I said, each one of those positions is a "least shitty" option. Each decision has had fallout because right now, all of America's options are shitty in the Middle East.

Edit: I would not advise Biden to use the phrase "shitty." Heh.

Direckshun
10-11-2012, 05:26 PM
Only problem is that it isn't Romney's plan and it's way too easy to blow holes in the Obama record.

1. Ryan's plan was endorsed by Romney.

2. Ryan's the freakin' veep. God forbid anything happening to Romney, but if anything did, we're stuck with Ryan.

Direckshun
10-11-2012, 05:28 PM
If Ryan is as good a debater/presenter as he should be(and I suspect he is) that would be a massive loss for Biden. He'd make him look like a silly old man dwelling on something that no longer applies. Ryan just needs to frame his response as if Biden is making another famous gaffe and make the point I stated earlier then reframe Biden again as making a gaffe. Viewing public would eat that up.

People aren't dumb enough to buy what Biden sells wholesale and they aren't smart enough to understand the nuance that you are trying to get across that it represents Ryan and Romney's core beliefs if they once were ok with a budget like that.

My $.02.

All reports are that Ryan is a good debater. I would expect him to perform well tonight, I'm actually excited to see him in action because we don't get a lot of dudes like him at the bottom of tickets. Usually it's just some "let's excite the base" 'tard.

I just don't see how he can wiggle away from his budget. It's an incredibly well constructed, severely conservative document that vaulted his standing in the GOP. He didn't get to where he is by being good looking -- though he has that going for him as well.

AustinChief
10-11-2012, 05:29 PM
Absolutely.

And like I said, each one of those positions is a "least shitty" option. Each decision has had fallout because right now, all of America's options are shitty in the Middle East.

Edit: I would not advise Biden to use the phrase "shitty." Heh.

BTW. that is by far Biden's best bet on foreign policy. Americans are tired of the Middle East and see it as hopeless. Biden should paint himself as an elder statesman who understands the difficulties there and he can relate to the frustrations but it's simply a case of trying to deal with the least awful scenario because when it comes to the Middle East there are no good ones. Then stress that the administration is trying to get the heck out as soon as possible for that very reason.

RINGLEADER
10-11-2012, 05:29 PM
Not a bad listing of talking points.

Each can be rebutted, and done so effectively, but your central point is correct -- it's a ton more difficult to defend a record than defend a mere platform.

My rule of thumb for this debate would be, the more you can talk about Ryan's budget, the better for Biden.

I simply don't think it's a winner, and I earnestly believe you folks agree with me on that.


Well, he can do that, but after 4-5 times of Ryan explaining that the budget is a starting point that is usually negotiated, but that the Democrats in the senate never produced a budget and Obama's budget couldn't even get a single Democrat vote (insert bi-partisan dig here) and that it isn't the plan we're running on you start to sound obtuse.

I think the left is missing the point that the reason Romney's had a surge of sorts is because he isn't the monster they made him out to be. Calling him a liar for being moderate sounding isn't going to work with most people. I realize it's all they got, but as long as Romney is an acceptable alternative Obama has real problems IMO.

RINGLEADER
10-11-2012, 05:29 PM
I think this is the Ringleader-Direckshun-Austin show...

Direckshun
10-11-2012, 05:30 PM
BTW. that is by far Biden's best bet on foreign policy. Americans are tired of the Middle East and see it as hopeless. Biden should paint himself as an elder statesman who understands the difficulties there and he can relate to the frustrations but it's simply a case of trying to deal with the least awful scenario because when it comes to the Middle East there are no good ones. Then stress that the administration is trying to get the heck out as soon as possible for that very reason.

I don't think that'd be too bad of an angle.

It'd certainly be the easiest sell, you'd think.

RINGLEADER
10-11-2012, 05:31 PM
1. Ryan's plan was endorsed by Romney.

2. Ryan's the freakin' veep. God forbid anything happening to Romney, but if anything did, we're stuck with Ryan.

1. So? It's not his plan now. I'm not sure why the left doesn't understand the plan, but I'm not going to convince anyone so I'll save the keystrokes...

2. That's the way it works...

RINGLEADER
10-11-2012, 05:31 PM
BTW. that is by far Biden's best bet on foreign policy. Americans are tired of the Middle East and see it as hopeless. .

They'll reconsider this position when the spigot gets turned off to that sweet sweet oil...

Direckshun
10-11-2012, 05:32 PM
Well, he can do that, but after 4-5 times of Ryan explaining that the budget is a starting point that is usually negotiated, but that the Democrats in the senate never produced a budget and Obama's budget couldn't even get a single Democrat vote (insert bi-partisan dig here) and that it isn't the plan we're running on you start to sound obtuse.

I think the left is missing the point that the reason Romney's had a surge of sorts is because he isn't the monster they made him out to be. Calling him a liar for being moderate sounding isn't going to work with most people. I realize it's all they got, but as long as Romney is an acceptable alternative Obama has real problems IMO.

Well I think we can both agree Romney is a sly one. He's definitively changed positions on a wide array of issues, and if the Republicans can be effective selling John Kerry as a poll-hoarding waffler, there's no reason that can't work on Romney.

And, if he tries to dodge his own budget, Ryan.

RINGLEADER
10-11-2012, 05:32 PM
Where's the thread-starter? Isn't there some kind of requirement if you're going to start a thread that you have to sit around and wait with the rest of us?

Direckshun
10-11-2012, 05:32 PM
I think this is the Ringleader-Direckshun-Austin show...

Hell, I'd watch that.

RINGLEADER
10-11-2012, 05:34 PM
Well I think we can both agree Romney is a sly one. He's definitively changed positions on a wide array of issues, and if the Republicans can be effective selling John Kerry as a poll-hoarding waffler, there's no reason that can't work on Romney.

And, if he tries to dodge his own budget, Ryan.


Well the budget line opens up Biden to questions about Obama's budget too. The one that not even a single Democrat would vote for...

Direckshun
10-11-2012, 05:34 PM
1. So? It's not his plan now. I'm not sure why the left doesn't understand the plan, but I'm not going to convince anyone so I'll save the keystrokes...

So you're saying Romney voted for it before he voted against it.

[flashback to 2004...]

RINGLEADER
10-11-2012, 05:34 PM
Hell, I'd watch that.

You're living it, buddy ;)

Direckshun
10-11-2012, 05:35 PM
Well the budget line opens up Biden to questions about Obama's budget too. The one that not even a single Democrat would vote for...

Fair point.

I still do it if I'm Biden, though. Obama's plan, as unpopular as it was with today's Congress, is far from the extreme document that Ryan's is/was.

RINGLEADER
10-11-2012, 05:35 PM
So you're saying Romney voted for it before he voted against it.

[flashback to 2004...]

No. He supported the Ryan budget. That doesn't mean he can't have his own and that it can't be different...a little different from saying "I actually did vote for the $87 billion, before I voted against it..."

RINGLEADER
10-11-2012, 05:36 PM
Fair point.

I still do it if I'm Biden, though. Obama's plan, as unpopular as it was with today's Congress, is far from the extreme document that Ryan's is/was.

I think this debate is all about trying to get a wedge between Romney and Ryan for Obama to exploit next week, so I think you're right.

AustinChief
10-11-2012, 05:36 PM
All reports are that Ryan is a good debater. I would expect him to perform well tonight, I'm actually excited to see him in action because we don't get a lot of dudes like him at the bottom of tickets. Usually it's just some "let's excite the base" 'tard.

I just don't see how he can wiggle away from his budget. It's an incredibly well constructed, severely conservative document that vaulted his standing in the GOP. He didn't get to where he is by being good looking -- though he has that going for him as well.

I agree this will be fun to watch. I have always told people that Biden is a top notch debater BUT I am worried that he has been in such a bubble for the last 4 years that he may not perform as well as in the past. We'll see though.

Regarding Ryan's budget. It will come down to framing. If Biden frames it as a shining example of just how right Ryan and Romney are and can defend that position, he scores points. I just can't imagine Ryan wouldn't defuse that easily. If I were him, I'd have my "zingers" ready for just that eventuality.

1)point out that Biden may want to check his calendar because he's reading a document that is x days old and no longer valid
2)make a funny but seemingly harmless, we're buddies, I'm just bustin your chops type of remark about his statement being a gaffe
3)explain what I currently have as my budget etc
4)make another reference to Biden "catching" up to current state of affairs

Then when Biden tries to say, "well you ONCE believed that.. that's important"

5)point out how he and Obama have evolved on certain issues (quote an embarrassing example or two) and why is he(Ryan) not allowed the same latitude

That pretty much kills the issue dead.

Direckshun
10-11-2012, 05:37 PM
No. He supported the Ryan budget. That doesn't mean he can't have his own and that it can't be different...a little different from saying "I actually did vote for the $87 billion, before I voted against it..."

Oh hell, it's even better if he still supports it.

Direckshun
10-11-2012, 05:37 PM
I think this debate is all about trying to get a wedge between Romney and Ryan for Obama to exploit next week, so I think you're right.

Interesting........ hadn't considered that angle.

Like running interference in NASCAR, I guess.

Saul Good
10-11-2012, 05:38 PM
That said, if I'm Biden (and for all you guys know, I am -- you've never seen me in the same room as him...), I keep singing the praises of the original Ryan budget. Because that thing is a nightmare for a Presidential campaign to sell in the United States.

Even if Ryan backs off parts of it, and says something like "I've since revised the parts on Medicare to not include today's seniors" I'd rebut that he still included it in the original thinking at one point that it was wise policy, and that that is indicative of where his priorities lie, which suggests dire consequences for future policy. (If Ryan attempts to escape by saying his views are not necessarily Romney's views, I'd remind him that god forbid, should something happen to Romney, you're the guy we're stuck with. That's why we have veeps, that's why we're on this stage. Otherwise nobody cares about us.)

Before Romney embraced the Moderate Mitt persona, he endorsed the Ryan budget at one point, and selected the guy to be his goddamn Veep. Marry him to it.

So you think Joe Biden should use the "you're married to every statement you've ever made" approach? No way that could backfire since Biden doesn't have a history of saying things he regrets.

RINGLEADER
10-11-2012, 05:38 PM
This will be fun to watch -- I think the last VP debate that had any impact one way or the other was the trainwreck of a debate that Jack Kemp gave in 1996...

Funny anecdote...one of the policy briefers that helped Kemp prep for that debate...

Paul Ryan

Direckshun
10-11-2012, 05:39 PM
I agree this will be fun to watch. I have always told people that Biden is a top notch debater BUT I am worried that he has been in such a bubble for the last 4 years that he may not perform as well as in the past. We'll see though.

Regarding Ryan's budget. It will come down to framing. If Biden frames it as a shining example of just how right Ryan and Romney are and can defend that position, he scores points. I just can't imagine Ryan wouldn't defuse that easily. If I were him, I'd have my "zingers" ready for just that eventuality.

1)point out that Biden may want to check his calendar because he's reading a document that is x days old and no longer valid
2)make a funny but seemingly harmless, we're buddies, I'm just bustin your chops type of remark about his statement being a gaffe
3)explain what I currently have as my budget etc
4)make another reference to Biden "catching" up to current state of affairs

Then when Biden tries to say, "well you ONCE believed that.. that's important"

5)point out how he and Obama have evolved on certain issues (quote an embarrassing example or two) and why is he(Ryan) not allowed the same latitude

That pretty much kills the issue dead.

I've always liked Biden a lot more in debates, because he's far more disciplined. Almost all his hilarious/stupid gaffes seem to be in front of crowds where he gets amped up and flies off script.

Smart post though. I don't agree it kills the issue, I keep going back to it if I'm Biden. Past positions don't vanish into the ether, and the fact that the Ryan budget has kept evolving from the far right as we get closer to election time...

Chocolate Hog
10-11-2012, 05:40 PM
Will be interesting to see what these two can do.

They are perfectly created to take on each other's weaknesses.

Biden is a values-laden foreign policy expert. Ryan a details-laden economics expert.

Could be a ton of fun.

Why do people call Biden a FP expert? The guy wanted to divide Iraq.

3rd&48ers
10-11-2012, 05:41 PM
Ryan talks better than Romney, there won't be many if any personal attacks on each other , they will have the knives out for their bosses though.

Direckshun
10-11-2012, 05:41 PM
So you think Joe Biden should use the "you're married to every statement you've ever made" approach? No way that could backfire since Biden doesn't have a history of saying things he regrets.

No, I'd say you're married to consistent policy statements you said right up until the point you realized you were running for (Vice) President.

Direckshun
10-11-2012, 05:42 PM
This will be fun to watch -- I think the last VP debate that had any impact one way or the other was the trainwreck of a debate that Jack Kemp gave in 1996...

Funny anecdote...one of the policy briefers that helped Kemp prep for that debate...

Paul Ryan

No shit? Heh.

AustinChief
10-11-2012, 05:42 PM
I've always liked Biden a lot more in debates, because he's far more disciplined. Almost all his hilarious/stupid gaffes seem to be in front of crowds where he gets amped up and flies off script.

Smart post though. I don't agree it kills the issue, I keep going back to it if I'm Biden. Past positions don't vanish into the ether, and the fact that the Ryan budget has kept evolving from the far right as we get closer to election time...

Holy crap the Mayans were right.. the word is ending.. I pretty much agree with you throughout this thread!

OK, I'm off for a bit, I'll try to get back in during or after the debate.

RINGLEADER
10-11-2012, 05:42 PM
So you think Joe Biden should use the "you're married to every statement you've ever made" approach? No way that could backfire since Biden doesn't have a history of saying things he regrets.

"We have all made mistakes Mr. Vice President, but it's a good thing when a man admits he's wrong and learns from it...just like you did when you admitted you were guilty of plagerism..."

RINGLEADER
10-11-2012, 05:43 PM
Holy crap the Mayans were right.. the word is ending.. I pretty much agree with you throughout this thread!

OK, I'm off for a bit, I'll try to get back in during or after the debate.

Direckshun is mostly reasonable, but he's more reasonable when his guy is losing...

Saul Good
10-11-2012, 05:43 PM
No, I'd say you're married to consistent policy statements you said right up until the point you realized you were running for (Vice) President.

So will Biden suggest partitioning Iraq?

AustinChief
10-11-2012, 05:44 PM
Why do people call Biden a FP expert? The guy wanted to divide Iraq.

Ha, it sounds nutty and he shouldn't have said it, but it's actually a solid idea. I won't dive into the whole messy reasoning why, but it has a ton of merit. May be wrong, may be right, no way to tell now, but it wasn't as silly as the media painted the idea.

Don;t underestimate Biden, he really is a FP guy, has been for a long ass time.

Direckshun
10-11-2012, 05:44 PM
Ryan talks better than Romney, there won't be many if any personal attacks on each other , they will have the knives out for their bosses though.

Oh I don't know. You don't get much smarter than Romney, and Romney's had so much more practice in Presidential debates (he's been in 30+ going back to 2008), that I'd say Romney's the better debater.

Ryan's a really bright guy, but this is his first time on this stage. I'm willing to bet he makes a couple common mis-steps due to this inexperience.

Direckshun
10-11-2012, 05:45 PM
Holy crap the Mayans were right.. the word is ending.. I pretty much agree with you throughout this thread!

OK, I'm off for a bit, I'll try to get back in during or after the debate.

Direckshun is mostly reasonable, but he's more reasonable when his guy is losing...

LMAO

Saul Good
10-11-2012, 05:45 PM
I've always liked Biden a lot more in debates, because he's far more disciplined. Almost all his hilarious/stupid gaffes seem to be in front of crowds where he gets amped up and flies off script.

Smart post though. I don't agree it kills the issue, I keep going back to it if I'm Biden. Past positions don't vanish into the ether, and the fact that the Ryan budget has kept evolving from the far right as we get closer to election time...

Of course he knows how to deliver prepared lines. If there's one thing Biden knows how to do, it's use the words of other people as his own.

Direckshun
10-11-2012, 05:45 PM
So will Biden suggest partitioning Iraq?

Sure.

RINGLEADER
10-11-2012, 05:45 PM
Oh I don't know. You don't get much smarter than Romney, and Romney's had so much more practice in Presidential debates (he's been in 30+ going back to 2008), that I'd say Romney's the better debater.

Ryan's a really bright guy, but this is his first time on this stage. I'm willing to bet he makes a couple common mis-steps due to this inexperience.

Romney's a Herman Munster robot...how he does that head roll without moving his body is a mystery to me...

RINGLEADER
10-11-2012, 05:46 PM
So what's the drinking word for tonight?

Direckshun
10-11-2012, 05:47 PM
Of course he knows how to deliver prepared lines. If there's one thing Biden knows how to do, it's use the words of other people as his own.

Regardless of his preparation, Biden's been in a lot of Presidential debates going back quite some time, and performed well in almost all of them.

He stood out over Hillary and Obama a time or two in 2008. Of course, they were mostly playing it safe while he was more aggressive, but there's no denying that he is an affable presense and carries a gravitas.

Direckshun
10-11-2012, 05:49 PM
Romney's a Herman Munster robot...how he does that head roll without moving his body is a mystery to me...

He's just a combination of being really impersonable and really polished.

Not the best combo, but put that up against a bunch of idiotic boobs (2012 primaries) or a hilariously unprepared President (last week), and you could be doing a lot worse.

Edit: Mike Huckabee regularly blew him up in the 2008 primaries, however. Huckabee's ear for rhetorical zingers and his warm personality were not a very good match for Romney's style at all.

Chocolate Hog
10-11-2012, 05:49 PM
Ha, it sounds nutty and he shouldn't have said it, but it's actually a solid idea. I won't dive into the whole messy reasoning why, but it has a ton of merit. May be wrong, may be right, no way to tell now, but it wasn't as silly as the media painted the idea.

Don;t underestimate Biden, he really is a FP guy, has been for a long ass time.

History would tell us that it wouldn't work and the surge which he was against did.

If he's good at FP they certainly aren't listening to him. Egypt & Libya are disastrous. Afghanistan is a stalemate at best.

Direckshun
10-11-2012, 05:49 PM
So what's the drinking word for tonight?

Hm.

I'd say "middle class" if I wanted to get absolutely wrecked.

Chocolate Hog
10-11-2012, 05:50 PM
Regardless of his preparation, Biden's been in a lot of Presidential debates going back quite some time, and performed well in almost all of them.

He stood out over Hillary and Obama a time or two in 2008. Of course, they were mostly playing it safe while he was more aggressive, but there's no denying that he is an affable presense and carries a gravitas.

So well he got about 2% of the vote in Iowa.

Saul Good
10-11-2012, 05:50 PM
Regardless of his preparation, Biden's been in a lot of Presidential debates going back quite some time, and performed well in almost all of them.

He stood out over Hillary and Obama a time or two in 2008. Of course, they were mostly playing it safe while he was more aggressive, but there's no denying that he is an affable presense and carries a gravitas.

Saying he's been in a lot of presidential debates is like saying Jim Kelly has a lot of experience in the Super Bowl.

FD
10-11-2012, 05:51 PM
So what's the drinking word for tonight?

Literally

qabbaan
10-11-2012, 05:51 PM
I'm not expecting fireworks. Biden is a loon who has no place a heartbeat away from the presidency, but he has taken a week off and will have his lines memorized.

Chocolate Hog
10-11-2012, 05:51 PM
Saying he's been a lot of presidential debates is like saying Jim Kelly has a lot of experience in the Super Bowl.

Right. Biden sure mopped up the floor with Palin didn't he LMAO

Direckshun
10-11-2012, 05:54 PM
So well he got about 2% of the vote in Iowa.

Oh please. He was muscled out by three very popular candidates in Obama, Clinton, and Edwards.

There was no oxygen left after those three.

Direckshun
10-11-2012, 05:56 PM
Saying he's been in a lot of presidential debates is like saying Jim Kelly has a lot of experience in the Super Bowl.

Fair enough.

Chocolate Hog
10-11-2012, 05:58 PM
Oh please. He was muscled out by three very popular candidates in Obama, Clinton, and Edwards.

There was no oxygen left after those three.

23 votes in the entire state. 23!

RINGLEADER
10-11-2012, 05:59 PM
I wonder if we're all going to be here in 20 years, following two suits five elections from now...

RINGLEADER
10-11-2012, 06:02 PM
When does this thing start?

Chocolate Hog
10-11-2012, 06:03 PM
When does this thing start?

8:00 central

3rd&48ers
10-11-2012, 06:03 PM
9pm est

Calcountry
10-11-2012, 06:03 PM
It seems to me by listening to the talking heads that Biden is considered a great gaffe producer but that most people are underestimating Bidens debate skills. Citing his performances at the Democratic debates when he was running for President.How could we ever forget the serious Joe Biden at the Anita Hill/ Clarence Thomas debacle?

No, he has been a player for decades. Look for him to completely dominate the young and inexperienced Ryan. Obama should get a good bump of 2 to 3 points out of this.

Makes for a good media narrative. ;)

Chocolate Hog
10-11-2012, 06:06 PM
BTW Obama attended the moderator of this debates wedding back in 1991. There's your excuse if Ryan loses.

Calcountry
10-11-2012, 06:08 PM
Will be interesting to see what these two can do.

They are perfectly created to take on each other's weaknesses.

Biden is a values-laden foreign policy expert. Ryan a details-laden economics expert.

Could be a ton of fun.Really? Then where was he on Libya?

RINGLEADER
10-11-2012, 06:08 PM
How could we ever forget the serious Joe Biden at the Anita Hill/ Clarence Thomas debacle?

No, he has been a player for decades. Look for him to completely dominate the young and inexperienced Ryan. Obama should get a good bump of 2 to 3 points out of this.

Makes for a good media narrative. ;)

I was reading the story about his plagiarism that came out during his run for the presidency in '88 - he was the age I am now, back then -- and the plagiarism took place during his college freshman year, which was the year before I was born.

Yikes...what a fossil...

Calcountry
10-11-2012, 06:09 PM
I saw that pic of the beach. Why would anyone want to watch tv with a view like that.

I think I will watch MASH rerunsI prefer Gunsmoke, it comes on right before Mash a lot.

qabbaan
10-11-2012, 06:10 PM
I was reading the story about his plagiarism that came out during his run for the presidency in '88 - he was the age I am now, back then -- and the plagiarism took place during his college freshman year, which was the year before I was born.

Yikes...what a fossil...

Biden is so old, he'd already run for president when Paul Ryan reached voting age.

RINGLEADER
10-11-2012, 06:10 PM
where did everyone go?

RINGLEADER
10-11-2012, 06:47 PM
LOL...seriously...where did everyone go?

headsnap
10-11-2012, 06:50 PM
LOL...seriously...where did everyone go?

the liquor store...











the Bourbon debate...

ClevelandBronco
10-11-2012, 06:50 PM
I hope we get The Crazy Joe Show, or The Drunk Joe Show, or The Bizarre Prescription Drug Interaction Joe Show, or whatever.

Saul Good
10-11-2012, 06:54 PM
I hope we get The Crazy Joe Show, or The Drunk Joe Show, or The Bizarre Prescription Drug Interaction Joe Show, or whatever.

You mean Joe?

RINGLEADER
10-11-2012, 06:54 PM
I hope we get The Crazy Joe Show, or The Drunk Joe Show, or The Bizarre Prescription Drug Interaction Joe Show, or whatever.

Well, it's going to be hard for Ryan to win since everyone thinks he has to win to keep the momentum going. But as I said earlier, the only VP debate that ever really seemed to have a winner or loser was '96 and Jack Kemp going on and on about Judeo Christian values.

Then again, it was Ryan who prepped Kemp for that...

Dallas Chief
10-11-2012, 06:56 PM
Man. Mitch McConnell looks like a muppet. That is all...

3rd&48ers
10-11-2012, 06:57 PM
http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/420467_497760013582521_1926363370_n.jpg

ClevelandBronco
10-11-2012, 06:58 PM
You mean Joe?

Pretty much. Lately, at least.

RINGLEADER
10-11-2012, 06:59 PM
Man...90 minutes...

RINGLEADER
10-11-2012, 07:03 PM
I'd like to begin by sticking a knife in your foreign policy...

Munson
10-11-2012, 07:05 PM
The question was about the intelligence failure in Libya, and Biden is rambling on about Iraq and Afghanistan.

Ebolapox
10-11-2012, 07:07 PM
oh shit son.

RINGLEADER
10-11-2012, 07:08 PM
Round one goes to Ryan...

Biden looks like he's going to lose it...

-King-
10-11-2012, 07:08 PM
LMAO Biden is a douche.

AustinChief
10-11-2012, 07:08 PM
Biden looking like an asshole by interrupting.

RINGLEADER
10-11-2012, 07:09 PM
Biden looks like he's about to blow up...

Weak retort...

-King-
10-11-2012, 07:09 PM
The 300MM cut on embassy security is pretty bad.

stonedstooge
10-11-2012, 07:09 PM
O'Bama shitting his pants

qabbaan
10-11-2012, 07:09 PM
Biden about to blow his top, Ryan just lets him do it and looks calm, smiling and taking a drink. Good start.

ClevelandBronco
10-11-2012, 07:10 PM
He's done everything he said he was going to do?

RINGLEADER
10-11-2012, 07:10 PM
The test audiences with the dials just cratered on Biden's response FWIW...

Ebolapox
10-11-2012, 07:10 PM
biden looks unprepared.

qabbaan
10-11-2012, 07:10 PM
This moderator sucks. This is a debate not an interview

AustinChief
10-11-2012, 07:11 PM
Biden finally picking up steam then stumbles on the the word "efforts" after saying devastating... none of what he said is gonna be bought by the public though...

Ryan needs to watch his reactions so he doesn't look like a douche like Biden. Don't bite kid... he's baiting you.

qabbaan
10-11-2012, 07:11 PM
Biden VERY defensive. Hostile even to the moderator.

The_Grand_Illusion
10-11-2012, 07:11 PM
The 300MM cut on embassy security is pretty bad.

That's the leftist meme these days but really there has been no budgets so it's a lie.

TGI

Ebolapox
10-11-2012, 07:12 PM
this moderator is sounding like she's pro-ryan

qabbaan
10-11-2012, 07:12 PM
Biden finally picking up steam then stumbles on the the word "efforts" after saying devastating...

Sounded like he was recalling a rehearsed line, but didn't quite have it.

RINGLEADER
10-11-2012, 07:12 PM
The 300MM cut on embassy security is pretty bad.

They never cut anything. It was in a budget but never enacted.

mnchiefsguy
10-11-2012, 07:12 PM
Ryan giving some common sense answers so far, Biden seems a bit rambly.

AustinChief
10-11-2012, 07:13 PM
uh oh.. Iran time. Biden is probably going to score here. IF he doesn't bring up economic sanctions and current effectiveness he deserves to lose the entire debate.

RINGLEADER
10-11-2012, 07:13 PM
this moderator is sounding like she's pro-ryan

Dunno.

Second part was a wash.

1-0-1 Ryan...

headsnap
10-11-2012, 07:13 PM
They never cut anything. It was in a budget but never enacted.

that's what's laughable about the claim.

Cave Johnson
10-11-2012, 07:14 PM
Biden doing way better than the Pres so far.

RINGLEADER
10-11-2012, 07:14 PM
Why didn't the Dems teach Biden to not make stupid faces while the other guy is talking?

alnorth
10-11-2012, 07:14 PM
They never cut anything. It was in a budget but never enacted.

"but the bill wasn't passed" is not a good responce, at all. Its such an obviously lame responce, that Ryan was smart enough not to do it, and just ignored Biden's retort altogether, moving on.

The fact that he proposed it in his budget is good enough for the point to stand.

stonedstooge
10-11-2012, 07:14 PM
Didn't the Democrats learn that the camera can be on both candidates at all times?

Chiefspants
10-11-2012, 07:15 PM
Biden needs to lose the body language (the laughter, etc.) It looks incredibly unprofessional.

RINGLEADER
10-11-2012, 07:15 PM
Really, can Biden get any redder?

Cave Johnson
10-11-2012, 07:15 PM
that's what's laughable about the claim.

Shows priorities.

AustinChief
10-11-2012, 07:15 PM
boring.. Ryan is only SLIGHTLY less droningly boring than Biden on this... both are making me sleepy with their delivery.

RINGLEADER
10-11-2012, 07:15 PM
"but the bill wasn't passed" is not a good responce, at all. Its such an obviously lame responce, that Ryan was smart enough not to do it, and just ignored Biden's retort altogether, moving on.

The fact that he proposed it in his budget is good enough for the point to stand.

That's fair, but they never cut anything?

Cave Johnson
10-11-2012, 07:15 PM
Biden needs to lose the body language (the laughter, etc.) It looks incredibly unprofessional.

That's his persona.

qabbaan
10-11-2012, 07:16 PM
Biden's strategy so far is to just say everything Ryan says is a lie.

alnorth
10-11-2012, 07:16 PM
Why didn't the Dems teach Biden to not make stupid faces while the other guy is talking?

because they work?

Only far-right wackos are offended when an opponent makes an incredulous face. You wouldn't say a word if Obama/Biden had a poker face while Romney/Ryan smiled.

mnchiefsguy
10-11-2012, 07:16 PM
Biden needs to lose the body language (the laughter, etc.) It looks incredibly unprofessional.

I agree, his body language seems very smug, the wide shots of Biden shaking his head and laughing while Ryan talks are not good for Biden's debate image.

AustinChief
10-11-2012, 07:16 PM
That's his persona.

It really is distracting and won't play well except among the people who are already on his side.

headsnap
10-11-2012, 07:17 PM
It really is distracting and won't play well except among the people who are already on his side.

but alnorth said...

AustinChief
10-11-2012, 07:18 PM
Biden scores on calling it bluster and playing the "I know classified stuff, neener neener card"

BUT Ryan does a decent job showing the administration as weak

RINGLEADER
10-11-2012, 07:18 PM
Good moderator.

alnorth
10-11-2012, 07:18 PM
There is no way in hell Biden and Ryan would be this cordial and orderly, taking turns and gently interjecting to interrupt, etc if the moderator was a man.

We might be on to something here. Maybe every debate should be moderated by a woman.

Direckshun
10-11-2012, 07:19 PM
Good moderator.

Very good moderator.

qabbaan
10-11-2012, 07:19 PM
Hah. A friend just texted me that Biden was coming off as really assholeish. I was thinking the same.

stonedstooge
10-11-2012, 07:19 PM
because they work?

Only far-right wackos are offended when an opponent makes an incredulous face. You wouldn't say a word if Obama/Biden had a poker face while Romney/Ryan smiled.

Worked well for O'Bama last week didn't it?

RINGLEADER
10-11-2012, 07:19 PM
Reign it in Joe...be careful...

qabbaan
10-11-2012, 07:19 PM
Biden scores on calling it bluster and playing the "I know classified stuff, neener neener card"

BUT Ryan does a decent job showing the administration as weak

Do Romney and Ryan not receive the daily intelligence briefings? I believe they do.

RINGLEADER
10-11-2012, 07:20 PM
This one is a push too...I'm not sure either side explained how they are going to stop them from getting a bomb...

alnorth
10-11-2012, 07:20 PM
Worked well for O'Bama last week didn't it?

Are you kidding me? Obama was hurt because he was completely asleep and let Romney walk all over him.

NO ONE cares about smiling, unless you are a hyper-partisan delicate flower.

Direckshun
10-11-2012, 07:20 PM
This debate has a very "going through the motions" feeling from both Ryan and Biden.

-King-
10-11-2012, 07:20 PM
Holy shit this is hilarious. Joe is laughing his ass off everytime Ryan talks.

RINGLEADER
10-11-2012, 07:21 PM
Moderator is getting in front of Biden's answers -- that's not cool to put words in his mouth like that...

stonedstooge
10-11-2012, 07:21 PM
Are you kidding me? Obama was hurt because he was completely asleep and let Romney walk all over him.

NO ONE cares about smiling, unless you are a hyper-partisan delicate flower.

Bullshit. O'Bama looking like a scared sheep last week definitely played into the overall view of his performance

headsnap
10-11-2012, 07:21 PM
Are you kidding me? Obama was hurt because he was completely asleep and let Romney walk all over him.

NO ONE cares about smiling, unless you are a hyper-partisan delicate flower.

gtfo, his body language was a big part of why he lost so bad...







TOOL!!!

qabbaan
10-11-2012, 07:21 PM
Biden saying that weapons grade uranium is not the last major step before having a working bomb....???

RINGLEADER
10-11-2012, 07:22 PM
I'm telling you, Al's opinion notwithstanding, these gestures and faces are so far going to be the story after the debate if they continue with no missteps by Ryan...

Mr. Plow
10-11-2012, 07:22 PM
Biden likes to laugh.

Chiefspants
10-11-2012, 07:22 PM
Wow, I'm impressed by the moderator so far, she's directing quite an engaging discussion on our foreign policy.

qabbaan
10-11-2012, 07:23 PM
I'm telling you, Al's opinion notwithstanding, these gestures and faces are so far going to be the story after the debate if they continue with no missteps by Ryan...

His assholeish demeanor and constant interrupting will be the story. He seems like just barely restrained from screaming and cursing.

mnchiefsguy
10-11-2012, 07:24 PM
His assholeish demeanor and constant interrupting will be the story. He seems like just barely restrained from screaming and cursing.

Biden likes the word malarky.

Shifting to the economy now, should be interesting.

Direckshun
10-11-2012, 07:24 PM
Biden likes to laugh.

I really think he just despises Ryan's answers, at least on the foreign policy stuff.

Dylan
10-11-2012, 07:24 PM
Biden looks very unprofessional laughing and smiling sarcastically.

-King-
10-11-2012, 07:25 PM
I'm telling you, Al's opinion notwithstanding, these gestures and faces are so far going to be the story after the debate if they continue with no missteps by Ryan...

Twitter agrees. Most people think that laughing only makes him look bad.

https://twitter.com/search/realtime?q=biden+laughing&src=typd

SNR
10-11-2012, 07:25 PM
because they work?

Only far-right wackos are offended when an opponent makes an incredulous face. You wouldn't say a word if Obama/Biden had a poker face while Romney/Ryan smiled.Romney already does that weird-looking grin that doesn't react to anything the opponent says. It's kind of off-putting.

mnchiefsguy
10-11-2012, 07:25 PM
And Biden hits with the 47%...let's see how Ryan responds.

RINGLEADER
10-11-2012, 07:25 PM
His assholeish demeanor and constant interrupting will be the story. He seems like just barely restrained from screaming and cursing.

He's getting redder and redder as time goes by...

Getting all his talking points in on the economy though...

qabbaan
10-11-2012, 07:25 PM
This strategy is not going to work for Biden. He makes Dean Wormer look likeable.

-King-
10-11-2012, 07:26 PM
"He changes his mind so much, i could be wrong"

LOL

Chiefspants
10-11-2012, 07:26 PM
Maybe Obama should have touched on this in the first debate, Biden is nailing it with the undecideds right now.

Chiefspants
10-11-2012, 07:27 PM
Again, this moderator is leading an engaging discussion.

Dylan
10-11-2012, 07:27 PM
Anyone notice how Martha is continually interrupting Ryan.

chuxtrux
10-11-2012, 07:27 PM
Biden isn't taking any shit tonight. He's on fire.

Chiefspants
10-11-2012, 07:27 PM
Anyone notice how Martha is continually interrupting Ryan.

She just cut through Joe Biden, so far the debate has been more balanced (timewise) than the Obama/Romney debate.

Direckshun
10-11-2012, 07:27 PM
Maybe Obama should have touched on this in the first debate, Biden is nailing it with the undecideds right now.

I agree.

Ryan's really underwhelming right now, in my opinion.

His answers aren't bad -- just ... has a very "going through the motions" feel.

stonedstooge
10-11-2012, 07:28 PM
Biden gets bitch slapped

Direckshun
10-11-2012, 07:28 PM
Finally, Ryan delivers something.

Good line.

RINGLEADER
10-11-2012, 07:28 PM
LINE OF THE DEBATE

47% argument killed...

Chiefspants
10-11-2012, 07:28 PM
OUCH

Mr. Plow
10-11-2012, 07:28 PM
lol

Chiefspants
10-11-2012, 07:29 PM
Wow, Ryan really had that answer prepped.

mnchiefsguy
10-11-2012, 07:29 PM
Biden understands Romney's personal generosity? Didn't Biden only give like $100 bucks to charity last year?

Munson
10-11-2012, 07:29 PM
Biden's smirking and laughing is really akward and distracting.

AustinChief
10-11-2012, 07:30 PM
LINE OF THE DEBATE

47% argument killed...

Biden did a decent job on his response but it pretty much is over for the whole "47%" this debate.

RINGLEADER
10-11-2012, 07:30 PM
I agree.

Ryan's really underwhelming right now, in my opinion.

His answers aren't bad -- just ... has a very "going through the motions" feel.

I don't disagree really, but that's why I don't understand why Biden isn't more restrained.

I've never seen a guy go from "my wife was killed" to "they don't like jobs" so fast in my life...

qabbaan
10-11-2012, 07:30 PM
Biden: "Yeah, our record sucks, but theirs would be suckier, trust me!"

Chocolate Hog
10-11-2012, 07:30 PM
Biden is coming across as angry. He was right on FP but Ryan got him on the economy.

Dylan
10-11-2012, 07:30 PM
Ryanís line on Bidenís words was a homerun.

Biden looks a bit uncomfortable.

Homerun? Yankees playing tonight?

please don't tear my skin off.

-King-
10-11-2012, 07:31 PM
Ryan is killing with the numbers.

Mr. Plow
10-11-2012, 07:32 PM
His laughing for every answer is starting to drive me crazy.

Direckshun
10-11-2012, 07:32 PM
Green pork sounds really delicious.

RINGLEADER
10-11-2012, 07:32 PM
BTW, Biden voted for the wars too...

Chiefspants
10-11-2012, 07:32 PM
Wow, this is actually been a lively debate thus far.

LiveSteam
10-11-2012, 07:32 PM
Marsha Marsha

alnorth
10-11-2012, 07:32 PM
I honestly don't know who is winning right now.

They are both doing well. Yeah, I'm seeing liberals all over the internet gleefully applauding Biden, but I'm not sure if Biden's going a bit too far with his "big loud man" approach.

J Diddy
10-11-2012, 07:32 PM
Hahahaa

stonedstooge
10-11-2012, 07:33 PM
Biden cutting his own throat

Chiefspants
10-11-2012, 07:33 PM
OUCH, Biden nailed Ryan on the stimulus funding.

tk13
10-11-2012, 07:33 PM
Everybody thinks the guy they support is killing the other guy. Shocker there. But it probably means they're both doing alright so far... which is probably accurate.

Dallas Chief
10-11-2012, 07:33 PM
This debate is bullshit. Ryan sounds like a snot nose and Biden sounds like a dick. Together they sound like a snotty prick.

AustinChief
10-11-2012, 07:33 PM
uh oh, Biden isn't gonna score much with this attitude.

Dylan
10-11-2012, 07:33 PM
Hey Biden, you’re not in a comedy club. Put your big boy pants on and step up for cryin' out loud.

mnchiefsguy
10-11-2012, 07:33 PM
Debate seems a draw so far, although Biden does lose a few style points for interrupting.

Chiefspants
10-11-2012, 07:34 PM
Again, Biden's laughter is doing nothing but hurting an otherwise respectable debate showing.

alnorth
10-11-2012, 07:34 PM
This debate is bullshit. Ryan sounds like a snot nose and Biden sounds like a dick. Together they sound like a snotty prick.

This is close to the truth, but I disagree on "bullshit", this is very entertaining.

AustinChief
10-11-2012, 07:34 PM
Everybody thinks the guy they support is killing the other guy. Shocker there. But it probably means they're both doing alright so far... which is probably accurate.

not me, I think Biden is looking snarky and Ryan is boring as hell.. neither is "winning" .. both are turning off people.

alnorth
10-11-2012, 07:34 PM
watch the mic, Biden. Gore did that, too.

RINGLEADER
10-11-2012, 07:35 PM
If Biden wasn't laughing and making faces it would be a push -- maybe a little to Biden, maybe a little to Ryan...but why is he laughing and making faces?

Dylan
10-11-2012, 07:35 PM
Keep laughing there Biden - You just lost it for your boss - Ha ha

jiveturkey
10-11-2012, 07:35 PM
This debate is way more entertaining.

mnchiefsguy
10-11-2012, 07:35 PM
Here comes Obamacare...

RINGLEADER
10-11-2012, 07:35 PM
Let's see what Biden says on $716 billion -- he should have something teed up...

AustinChief
10-11-2012, 07:35 PM
Here we go on Medicare! Ryan's nailing it so far but his delivery sucks ass.

Direckshun
10-11-2012, 07:35 PM
not me, I think Biden is looking snarky and Ryan is boring as hell.. neither is "winning" .. both are turning off people.

I tend to agree.

If nothing else, right now Biden is lively and comfortable. Ryan sounds boring and 13 years old, small...

I think rhetorically, it's not even close. I think Biden's selling.

But that's just 1 guy's opinion.

Direckshun
10-11-2012, 07:36 PM
Here we go on Medicare! Ryan's nailing it so far but his delivery sucks ass.

Why does he sound so fucking dry? Seriously.

He sounds 13 years old.

alnorth
10-11-2012, 07:36 PM
Ryan is not a national politician.

He's a very bright, brilliant wonk and his knowledge is needed in Washington. He should stay in congress for 40+ years and do as much good as he can, where he can safely run ads in a red state and doesn't have to debate on national TV.

J Diddy
10-11-2012, 07:36 PM
Biden cutting his own throat

Absolutely. It's horrible, like when Ryan says the stimulus is a horrible idea that doesn't do anything but then he writes Biden asking for money saying he needs it to spur job growth.

Dylan
10-11-2012, 07:36 PM
Ryan is clearly ready for this.

Dallas Chief
10-11-2012, 07:36 PM
Biden reminds me of a goofier version of John McCain. Snickergigglehehehe... my friends...grinheehawbahahhaa

RINGLEADER
10-11-2012, 07:37 PM
Weak response

alnorth
10-11-2012, 07:37 PM
Here we go on Medicare! Ryan's nailing it so far but his delivery sucks ass.

yep, he's the opposite of Romney.

Romney was shit on substance, but awesome in delivery. Ryan is far, far better on substance than delivery.

Chocolate Hog
10-11-2012, 07:37 PM
I tend to agree.

If nothing else, right now Biden is lively and comfortable. Ryan sounds boring and 13 years old, small...

I think rhetorically, it's not even close. I think Biden's selling.

But that's just 1 guy's opinion.

We're seeing why Biden got 23 votes in Iowa.

tk13
10-11-2012, 07:38 PM
not me, I think Biden is looking snarky and Ryan is boring as hell.. neither is "winning" .. both are turning off people.

If anyone is going to legitimately change their vote because Biden made a couple faces then Ryan was talking, then they are a stupid person. Let's be real... it's just people who support the Republican ticket ripping on a guy they don't like. And the same is true of people calling Ryan boring. After Obama's horrible soft performance, someone on their ticket had to go on the attack, and he's doing that. And Ryan is attacking all the holes in the current administration.

RINGLEADER
10-11-2012, 07:38 PM
Obama's plan is so great it doesn't go insolvent until 2024

mnchiefsguy
10-11-2012, 07:38 PM
Biden trying to dismiss Ryan's points by calling it "Death Panels" Not sure that argument is going to fly.

Dallas Chief
10-11-2012, 07:39 PM
This is close to the truth, but I disagree on "bullshit", this is very entertaining.

Ok I concede. They are both full of shit. Better?

mnchiefsguy
10-11-2012, 07:39 PM
Biden interrupting again.

Frazod
10-11-2012, 07:39 PM
Biden interrupting again.

GET OFF MY LAWN!!!!!!! LMAO

ChiefsCountry
10-11-2012, 07:39 PM
Biden is an ass.

Chiefspants
10-11-2012, 07:39 PM
Ryan is outclassing Biden so far, I must say.

alnorth
10-11-2012, 07:40 PM
OK, I can change my mind, but I've seen enough to call this a draw so far.

However, at this point I'd say the media, which has a self-interest in promoting a close horse-race, will say Biden narrowly won, to whip up ratings for the next debate.

AustinChief
10-11-2012, 07:40 PM
Ryan killed Biden right there. Biden looks like an ass with his "liar liar" interruptions.

Cave Johnson
10-11-2012, 07:40 PM
I could kiss Biden right now. His performance is going to staunch the bleeding.

mnchiefsguy
10-11-2012, 07:41 PM
Ryan killed Biden right there. Biden looks like an ass with his "liar liar" interruptions.

Biden can't keep his mouth shut and wait his turn.

Dylan
10-11-2012, 07:41 PM
Uncle Joe is not disappointing, smirking and acting like an arrogant used car salesperson. LOL

RINGLEADER
10-11-2012, 07:41 PM
I feel bad for Biden -- he was told to go fight for something that isn't rationale.

When he found a way in 1983 I remember the grannies coming out and attacking Dan Rostenkowski's limo...lol

Ebolapox
10-11-2012, 07:41 PM
biden is way too aggressive.

qabbaan
10-11-2012, 07:41 PM
This is probably the nastiest I've seen a candidate be in a debate, at least as far back as I can remember,

Direckshun
10-11-2012, 07:42 PM
Neither of these guys are delivering a very clean message right now.

RINGLEADER
10-11-2012, 07:42 PM
OK, I can change my mind, but I've seen enough to call this a draw so far.

However, at this point I'd say the media, which has a self-interest in promoting a close horse-race, will say Biden narrowly won, to whip up ratings for the next debate.

Now I know Ryan is winning...

tk13
10-11-2012, 07:42 PM
biden is way too aggressive.

I don't think so at all. He's trying to stop the bleeding from Obama's soft performance and keep his base from jumping ship on them.

stonedstooge
10-11-2012, 07:42 PM
Now I know Ryan is winning...

LMAO

alnorth
10-11-2012, 07:43 PM
This is probably the nastiest I've seen a candidate be in a debate, at least as far back as I can remember,

Negative ads also never work, they turn off people because they say "oh, that ad is so mean, that poor guy, I'll vote the other way"

Right?