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View Full Version : Electronics The REAL tablet wars are about to start


AustinChief
10-12-2012, 07:55 PM
Up until now the choices have actually been rather spartan when you compare the tablet market to the PC space. That is about to change in the next two months... and prices are going to reflect the change. (Though I doubt right away, it will take some time to shake it all out)


New tablets coming soon:

Windows 8 tablets: these are the most interesting due to the fact that they can double as a laptop and run x86 based programs. In theory these should dominate the market over time but in reality pricing will determine their adoption rate. Color me skeptical for now.

Windows RT: meh... basically windows version of an Android or iOS tablet, I see very limited potential here but who knows.

iPad Mini: Also will depend on pricing. If it isn't at least CLOSE to the $200 price point, I can't see any compelling reason to purchase one other than the typical Apple fan "have to have the cool new thing" factor. Of course, we know jack shite about their specs so I could be way off here... but it's always good to have more choices.

As for all the other Android tablets... I see a number of major price drops heading our way.. take a look at the new Kindle Fire HD 8.9 at $299 and the Nook HD+ at $269.. that's unreal. We are about to have quality tablets getting close to the $250 mark.

EDITED TO ADD RUMORS:

Google is supposedly releasing a $99 tablet and a 10.1" Nexus with REALLY high end specs (made by Samsung) both are rumored to start manufacturing in December.

Any thoughts?

Guru
10-12-2012, 07:58 PM
isn't the new ipod touch the ipad mini.

JASONSAUTO
10-12-2012, 08:06 PM
I'm going to be in the market for a Christmas present for my youngest (today) she is seven and plays on grandmas I pad games and books.

Any suggestions? Doesn't have to be mobile, wi fi would work I would think
Posted via Mobile Device

AustinChief
10-12-2012, 08:11 PM
isn't the new ipod touch the ipad mini.

Ha, not quite.. that'd be the iPad mini mini.. or the iPad micro!

iPad mini should be announced sometime in the next month.

AustinChief
10-12-2012, 08:22 PM
I'm going to be in the market for a Christmas present foot my youngest (today) she is seven and plays on grandmas I pad games and books.

Any suggestions? Doesn't have to be mobile, wi fi would work I would think
Posted via Mobile Device

Biggest question you have to answer first is what size works best. 7" or 9"+

In the 7" space, it's hard to beat the Google Nexus... BUT if you want more control as a parent, you may want to look at the Kindle Fire HD line... they have a badass feature called FreeTime http://www.engadget.com/2012/09/06/amazon-unveils-kindle-freetime-gives-kids-their-own-space-to-pl/

The Nook HD line may have a similar feature (I know you can make separate profiles for different family members)


It gets trickier when you move up to the 9+" space... tons upon tons of options... depends on what exactly you are looking to get out of it. I wouldn't worry about getting an iPad unless you have money to burn. Your kid will easily pick up any OS you give her.

JASONSAUTO
10-12-2012, 08:27 PM
No on the I Pad.

Thinking about a 10", just because she reads A LOT. And then maybe I won't be chasing the bigger and bigger screen for years.

She plays games and reads. Mom would probably use it some for internet
Posted via Mobile Device

AustinChief
10-12-2012, 08:44 PM
No on the I Pad.

Thinking about a 10", just because she reads A LOT. And then maybe I won't be chasing the bigger and bigger screen for years.

She plays games and reads. Mom would probably use it some for internet
Posted via Mobile Device

Well in the 9"+ space you have a bunch of options with more coming soon, so obviously it will pay off to wait a bit before making a decision. Right now, The Kindle FIre HD 8.9" is a solid tablet for around $300 .. even better if you have Amazon Prime.. tons of free books, movies and tv shows. BUT I don't think it ships until Nov 20th, so if it were me, I'd wait until Nov 1 (Windows tabs will be out by then but I doubt that is what you will want) to see what else is out there then pre-order if nothing better comes along.

htismaqe
10-12-2012, 08:51 PM
I just can't say enough good things about the Kindle Fire. My kids absolutely love them.

Guru
10-12-2012, 09:15 PM
Ha, not quite.. that'd be the iPad mini mini.. or the iPad micro!

iPad mini should be announced sometime in the next month.

Well, keep in mind that the new Touch is $299. I wouldn't expect their iPad Mini to be anywhere near that,.

Deberg_1990
10-12-2012, 09:16 PM
Google is supposedly releasing a $99 tablet

Not worth it/Guru

Guru
10-12-2012, 09:18 PM
Not worth it/Guru

depends on the specs and the software. :D

WoodDraw
10-12-2012, 09:31 PM
Some interesting points. In my opinion, tablets have become a fight between ecosystems as opposed to hardware. The hardware has become commoditized to a growing extent. Some do hardware better than others, but it comes down to a touch screen in all cases.

This will be distressing to the likes of Samsung, because they'll struggle to create much of an identity. You can see this already in that they're relegating Google Now to the background while trying to push "S Voice". They're doing the same with their other "S" apps, even though they're inferior products. They're also completely losing out on the advertising money and ecosystem money.

They are also facing price pressure from Google and Amazon selling devices at cost.

I hate the Amazon kindle, but no one can deny they have an excellent ecosystem. A good friend of mine raves about it. He has a Prime membership, and loves the "free" books and streaming deals. For those casual, consumption users, it works perfectly and fills a market.

I think Microsoft will struggle. They are late to the market, and have so much to make up against Android and Apple, I don't see how it's possible. I also think their branding is awful. The average consumer doesn't know or care about the difference between Windows 8 and Windows RT. It introduces confusion that's going to hurt in the long run. They might find a niche in the enterprise area, but I don't think you'll see them approach any healthy market share.

I have a Nexus 7, iPad 2, and Kindle Fire. The Nexus 7 is around me almost all day. I love the thing. I've used Android since Eclair, so I'm biased. But this is the first Android device I've had that I love. The Fire I've practically given to someone else. And the iPad I find myself using less and less, although it's still an excellent product - just not for me.

AustinChief
10-12-2012, 09:39 PM
I think Microsoft will struggle. They are late to the market, and have so much to make up against Android and Apple, I don't see how it's possible. I also think their branding is awful. The average consumer doesn't know or care about the difference between Windows 8 and Windows RT. It introduces confusion that's going to hurt in the long run. They might find a niche in the enterprise area, but I don't think you'll see them approach any healthy market share.

I agree 100% with your post except for the part quoted... here I agree to an extent. I agree on RT and the confusion factor but I disagree on true Windows 8 tablets. Imagine a laptop that does EVERYTHING you want it to do but can also be a tablet. I have one of the older versions of this and it's nice but so damn thick and old that it isn't the best tablet. Also, it has Windows 7 which isn't the best OS for tablets. BUT if it was light and thin and the OS was more tablet friendly and there were more tablet optimized apps.. it would be PERFECT. That is what Windows 8 tablets promise to do. Though I am a skeptic as to how well MS will deliver on that promise and if they can price them competitively.

In the end, I really think it's all gonna be about price for the next few years.

This really reminds me a lot of the earlier days of PCs when Dell and Gateway and others drove prices to the ground and the market exploded.. then once things settled down you started to see the niches break out for different pricing structures and such. I think we are just on the edge of entering that phase of the tablet market.

WoodDraw
10-12-2012, 10:39 PM
I agree 100% with your post except for the part quoted... here I agree to an extent. I agree on RT and the confusion factor but I disagree on true Windows 8 tablets. Imagine a laptop that does EVERYTHING you want it to do but can also be a tablet. I have one of the older versions of this and it's nice but so damn thick and old that it isn't the best tablet. Also, it has Windows 7 which isn't the best OS for tablets. BUT if it was light and thin and the OS was more tablet friendly and there were more tablet optimized apps.. it would be PERFECT. That is what Windows 8 tablets promise to do. Though I am a skeptic as to how well MS will deliver on that promise and if they can price them competitively.


I guess I don't see the market. Everything is becoming so cloud based now that these things matter less and less. I don't see the market for a "tablet that can do anything" beyond a few industries. People want iPads; they have computers for the rest. Microsoft Office will be dead within a few years, replaced by web solutions. Apps are increasingly becoming web and cloud based.

The future will come from the internet and not from proprietary software running on a tablet. I want to be able to do my work everywhere and anywhere. And if MS says to do that I have to buy a Windows 8 tablet, I'll find a different service. And a lot of companies are already moving that way.

AustinChief
10-13-2012, 01:25 AM
I guess I don't see the market. Everything is becoming so cloud based now that these things matter less and less. I don't see the market for a "tablet that can do anything" beyond a few industries. People want iPads; they have computers for the rest. Microsoft Office will be dead within a few years, replaced by web solutions. Apps are increasingly becoming web and cloud based.

The future will come from the internet and not from proprietary software running on a tablet. I want to be able to do my work everywhere and anywhere. And if MS says to do that I have to buy a Windows 8 tablet, I'll find a different service. And a lot of companies are already moving that way.

Yes apps are becoming cloud based but there is still a massive market for actual x86 apps. We are years and years away from phasing out all "desktop" apps. Great example, I develop mobile and cloud based apps and I'd be in a world of hurt if I couldn't use desktop apps to do so. It could be done, but it certainly wouldn't be nearly as easy. The other area that will take time is games. It will be awhile before you could ever run Warcraft on your Android tablet (and probably NEVER on an iPad)... on the other hand, you should be able to play any game on any high end Win 8 tablet. Also there are plans for tablets built specifically for gaming...

http://technabob.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/razer-project-fiona-gaming-tablet.jpg
http://www.razerzone.com/projectfiona/tech_specs

htismaqe
10-14-2012, 09:47 PM
I guess I don't see the market. Everything is becoming so cloud based now that these things matter less and less. I don't see the market for a "tablet that can do anything" beyond a few industries. People want iPads; they have computers for the rest. Microsoft Office will be dead within a few years, replaced by web solutions. Apps are increasingly becoming web and cloud based.

The future will come from the internet and not from proprietary software running on a tablet. I want to be able to do my work everywhere and anywhere. And if MS says to do that I have to buy a Windows 8 tablet, I'll find a different service. And a lot of companies are already moving that way.

Wile the clients using the cloud might not be running Windows, the cloud itself often IS. Last time I saw any data, just about 2/3 of the virtual machines running in the Gartner-designated "leaders'" clouds were running Windows Server.

HC_Chief
10-15-2012, 03:59 PM
Wile the clients using the cloud might not be running Windows, the cloud itself often IS. Last time I saw any data, just about 2/3 of the virtual machines running in the Gartner-designated "leaders'" clouds were running Windows Server.

That trend will continue. VMware is the next Netscape.

The W8 tablets, known as "Surface", will dominate. They are true laptop replacements, not merely consumer toys (see: iPad).

DaveNull
10-15-2012, 06:03 PM
Hard to believe that you still think that people *want* laptop replacements.

Here's how things are going to go down:

Apple will release a 7" tablet and sell the living hell out of them, while actually making a profit. This ends up being something that none of the other OEMs can't do.

The Nexus will get hit the hardest, but Google may actually be losing money on each of those units anyway. It probably remains the best Android tablet out there, and therefore great for folks that dump all their stuff into the Google ecosystem.

Samsung will continue to get down into the mud with expensive advertising that appeals to their base, release tablets that won't ever see an operating system upgrade and won't see much, if any, profit from it. Their nasty ads do a great job of riling up their fan base but alienate potential customers and drives Apple to stop buying components from them within two years.

People that hate Apple on principle will point to sales of Android tablets as some sign of victory against the Man even though nobody actually makes money off Android tablets. Great for people that like cheap devices, yelling on the internet and feeling different because you don't carry Apple hardware. Not so great for anyone invested in OEMs making Android tablets except for Amazon.

Amazon still won't say how many Kindle XYZs they make but will have high revenue numbers. They break even on their devices and make it up on content.

Microsoft will eventually release the Surface, which will be overshadowed by how terrible Windows 8 reviews are. They end up pushing their OEMs to Android because they want license fees for each copy of Windows 8 and the OEMs are pissed that suddenly they're really in competition with Microsoft. Ballmer has already come out to say they want an integrated solution. Google (with the Nexus) doesn't care. The Nexus is a reference device for their OEMs and make money off the advertising.

The Microsoft hardware will be OK, but their cover will under deliver. This ends up hurting both the Windows and Office brands overall. Office will suffer more because once the general consumer realizes that the experience of using Office on a touch device sucks and realizes that they've been getting along fine without it on iOS for quite some time.

So to recap:

Apple: Releases a 7" tablet and makes $$$
Google: Doesn't care about their hardware but the glut of Android devices delivers lots and lots of ad words
Amazon: Continues to make a decent pile of $$$ from selling content on their branded devices
Microsoft: Sees their brand diminished on the desktop, remaining marginalized on tablets and phones while they continue to do cool shit on the server side. Inexplicably Ballmer keeps his job.
RIM: Bankruptcy by June

Android partisans: Claim victory based on market share even though none of these companies stay in business because of market share alone while amassing a larger pile of obsolete cheaply made hardware
Apple partisans: Love their stuff, still looks at Android as a cheap knock off
Apple investors: Talk to their accountants about buying some RIM stock to offset their obscene gains on AAPL for tax purposes

WoodDraw
10-15-2012, 06:30 PM
I'm not an Android fanboy. I think tablets, at this point, are consumption devices. And Amazon and Apple kill google there. Apple has tried to move a bit towards production too, but I don't find their apps very good. I think the biggest disaster in design today is in App development - it drives me crazy. But that's probably for another thread.

But I still would have a hard time recommending an Android tablet over an Apple or Amazon device, if that's what the user wants.


I think Microsoft will do fuck all though. But we'll see - I have been wrong before. And I agree with the statement that people don't want laptop replacements - they serve two different needs. That's part of why I think MS will fail.

DaveNull
10-15-2012, 07:17 PM
Apple has tried to move a bit towards production too, but I don't find their apps very good. I think the biggest disaster in design today is in App development - it drives me crazy. But that's probably for another thread.

I'll bite. What do you mean? App approval? Objective-C?

Braincase
10-15-2012, 09:11 PM
The Windows 8 tablets with AMD processors will be able to run Android apps. Link (http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2012/09/bluestacks-amd-android-apps-windows8/)

Regarding the idea that "Office" will be dead in a few years in favor of cloud and web based applications, somebody missed the memo... Office is already web-based and on the cloud. Link (http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/office365/free-office365-trial-si.aspx?WT.srch=1&WT.mc_id=PS_google_Office+365_Entice_office%20365_Text)

GordonGekko
10-16-2012, 09:05 AM
Surface RT tablets begin at $500 - Report

http://www.gamespot.com/news/surface-rt-tablets-begin-at-500-report-6398321

Pricing for new Windows RT tablet line to begin at $500 for 32GB model without Touch Cover; scaling to $700 with covers and additional memory.

Microsoft has, perhaps prematurely, unveiled pricing for its upcoming Surface tablet line. Pricing for the RT models appeared on Microsoft's official website today, and was quickly removed, but not before TechCrunch snapped a screenshot of the page.


According to the screenshot, a 32GB Surface tablet running on Windows RT will cost $500, and will not come bundled with a Touch Cover (a magnetic screen cover that doubles as a keyboard). The same 32GB model with a Touch Cover will run $600, and a 64GB model with a Touch Cover is pegged at $700.

The Surface RT tablet line is expected to launch alongside Microsoft's new Windows 8 operating system on October 26. This pricing is in line with Apple's newest iPad iteration, which begins at $500 for a Wifi-only version and scales to $700.

Microsoft's Surface RT edition, which runs on a Nvidia ARM processor, is one of two models the company is planning. The other is an Intel Core processor-driven Windows 8 Pro unit. Information regarding that model is expected to arrive sometime later.

Both Surface tablets will feature a 10.6-inch "HD display" with Corning Gorilla Glass 2.0, as well as a full-size USB port, microSD card port, and multiple configurations of system RAM. Microsoft is also touting built-in kickstands for the Surface tablets, as well as screen covers with built-in keyboards. The cover combos will come in two varieties: the Touch Cover will provide a 3mm-thin gesture-sensing keyboard for typing, while the 5mm-thin Type Cover offers moving keys for those who prefer a standard keyboard feel.

Chief Gump
10-16-2012, 10:41 AM
What do you guys think of this tablet?

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16834230394&nm_mc=KNC-GoogleAdwords&cm_mmc=KNC-GoogleAdwords-_-pla-_-NA-_-NA

Mr. Laz
10-16-2012, 11:01 AM
What do you guys think of this tablet?

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16834230394&nm_mc=KNC-GoogleAdwords&cm_mmc=KNC-GoogleAdwords-_-pla-_-NA-_-NA
I have the newer Infinity and it's solid hardware. I heard rumors that the all metal shell of the older Transformer tablets cause some issues though. Not sure if that specific model has the problems.

Android(even after upgrade to jelly bean) is annoying but it's a solid tablet

I just don't understand why Android isn't better than it is ... they have had plenty of time to produce a mature product.

Fat Elvis
10-16-2012, 11:49 PM
Surface RT tablets begin at $500 - Report

http://www.gamespot.com/news/surface-rt-tablets-begin-at-500-report-6398321

Pricing for new Windows RT tablet line to begin at $500 for 32GB model without Touch Cover; scaling to $700 with covers and additional memory.

Microsoft has, perhaps prematurely, unveiled pricing for its upcoming Surface tablet line. Pricing for the RT models appeared on Microsoft's official website today, and was quickly removed, but not before TechCrunch snapped a screenshot of the page.


According to the screenshot, a 32GB Surface tablet running on Windows RT will cost $500, and will not come bundled with a Touch Cover (a magnetic screen cover that doubles as a keyboard). The same 32GB model with a Touch Cover will run $600, and a 64GB model with a Touch Cover is pegged at $700.

The Surface RT tablet line is expected to launch alongside Microsoft's new Windows 8 operating system on October 26. This pricing is in line with Apple's newest iPad iteration, which begins at $500 for a Wifi-only version and scales to $700.

Microsoft's Surface RT edition, which runs on a Nvidia ARM processor, is one of two models the company is planning. The other is an Intel Core processor-driven Windows 8 Pro unit. Information regarding that model is expected to arrive sometime later.

Both Surface tablets will feature a 10.6-inch "HD display" with Corning Gorilla Glass 2.0, as well as a full-size USB port, microSD card port, and multiple configurations of system RAM. Microsoft is also touting built-in kickstands for the Surface tablets, as well as screen covers with built-in keyboards. The cover combos will come in two varieties: the Touch Cover will provide a 3mm-thin gesture-sensing keyboard for typing, while the 5mm-thin Type Cover offers moving keys for those who prefer a standard keyboard feel.

At that price point, why would anyone want one of the Surface tablets? I was wanting one earlier, but for the same price, I could get an iPad with a better display and a bajillion apps. Microsoft currently has, what, less than 600 apps in their store? At that price point, they are dead in the water. It is now between Google and Apple. It will be interesting what the Nexus 10 will be like...I hope it has the stylus option like the Galaxy Note 10.1......

Fish
10-16-2012, 11:58 PM
At that price point, why would anyone want one of the Surface tablets? I was wanting one earlier, but for the same price, I could get an iPad with a better display and a bajillion apps. Microsoft currently has, what, less than 600 apps in their store? At that price point, they are dead in the water. It is now between Google and Apple. It will be interesting what the Nexus 10 will be like...I hope it has the stylus option like the Galaxy Note 10.1......

The apps aren't what makes it appealing. Running full blown MS makes apps completely irrelevant. You could load Office 2010, just like a desktop PC. And run full blown Outlook, and any other desktop app. Some Windows only apps are essential to the enterprise world, and currently won't run on any tablet.

I really think there would be a big demand for that functionality on a tablet. A lot more so in the enterprise environment, where they don't care about overpaying for technology. The manufacturer could overprice it, and it would still sell well just because it's a legit Windows environment.

People underestimate the value of Windows coverage, and how it hasn't translated to tablets very well yet at all.

kaplin42
10-17-2012, 12:17 AM
The apps aren't what makes it appealing. Running full blown MS makes apps completely irrelevant. You could load Office 2010, just like a desktop PC. And run full blown Outlook, and any other desktop app. Some Windows only apps are essential to the enterprise world, and currently won't run on any tablet.

I really think there would be a big demand for that functionality on a tablet. A lot more so in the enterprise environment, where they don't care about overpaying for technology. The manufacturer could overprice it, and it would still sell well just because it's a legit Windows environment.

People underestimate the value of Windows coverage, and how it hasn't translated to tablets very well yet at all.


Pretty much this!

As I have said in other threads, I work for a school in IT. We ordered
6 RT tablets today for testing, and will order 6 pro ones when they come out.

The reason being is that we will be going to a 1:1 program with students, we thought that would be with iPads, but to be honest, on top of being almost utterly useless for teachers in a classroom environment, they are even worse for students. But, if you could have a full blown MS OS on a tablet sized device, that would be pretty much amazing for all involved.

Now to be fair this is what would work in our environment since we are a Microsoft house, in others it might not be as ideal.

@davenull

ROFL if you think laptops are on their way out. Try and use an iPad in an anything but a consumption type of manner and you will find it immensely annoying.

BigMeatballDave
10-17-2012, 01:15 AM
I just don't understand why Android isn't better than it is ... they have had plenty of time to produce a mature product.

Actually, Android is very good for its short amount of time in the market.

OS and Windows have been around for nearly 30 years.

Android? 5 yrs.

Fat Elvis
10-17-2012, 09:37 AM
The apps aren't what makes it appealing. Running full blown MS makes apps completely irrelevant. You could load Office 2010, just like a desktop PC. And run full blown Outlook, and any other desktop app. Some Windows only apps are essential to the enterprise world, and currently won't run on any tablet.

I really think there would be a big demand for that functionality on a tablet. A lot more so in the enterprise environment, where they don't care about overpaying for technology. The manufacturer could overprice it, and it would still sell well just because it's a legit Windows environment.

People underestimate the value of Windows coverage, and how it hasn't translated to tablets very well yet at all.

That is the thing, though, you can't run full blown MS on the RT tablets. On the Pro tablets, sure, but you are looking at another $4-500 for that, apparently--several months down the line. Ultra books will do the same exact thing that the Pro tablets will do; they make the Pro tablets redundant--unless you are absolutely dieing to be able to use finger navigation on a spreadsheet, lol.

GordonGekko
10-17-2012, 11:14 AM
That is the thing, though, you can't run full blown MS on the RT tablets. On the Pro tablets, sure, but you are looking at another $4-500 for that, apparently--several months down the line. Ultra books will do the same exact thing that the Pro tablets will do; they make the Pro tablets redundant--unless you are absolutely dieing to be able to use finger navigation on a spreadsheet, lol.

Microsoft needs to do away with the RT line and focus on their Pro line, that is where their niche will be. They also need to work on the price point because not nearly the amount of people will drop $1000 on a tablet as they would if the price were say, $600. The Pro's NEED to be competitively priced or MS is done.

DaveNull
10-17-2012, 06:27 PM
Actually, Android is very good for its short amount of time in the market.

OS and Windows have been around for nearly 30 years.

Android? 5 yrs.

iOS was released to the public in June 2007. Android's first beta was released in November 2007.

If you're talking about OS X (which shares the same kernel as iOS) it's only been around since roughly 2000. OS X is completely different than the old Mac OS versions. If you really want to be nerdy and say that OS X is just Unix and it's been around for around 30 years I'd agree.

Windows RT would have been much more interesting it it had been Metro (or whatever they are calling it now) *only*.

As far as the application argument goes, "apps" as we've come to call them represent a new generation of software and I don't think it's necessarily fair to compare them to traditional desktop applications. That goes regardless of what platform you're talking about. When people talk about wanting "apps" they're probably talking about software that works on a tablet that doesn't include things included in the traditional Windows/OS X/Gnome/KDE user interfaces.

And Kaplin, I've never said that tablets will fully replace laptops or desktops for many purposes. For lots of people in a number of situations a tablet of some kind works as well if not better for them than a laptop. It's the whole truck vs. car analogy. Trucks and full computers are good for heavy tasks. Cars and tablets are better for other things.

Put a different way, if all I'm going to do when I'm away from the office is reading or writing then a tablet works just fine for me. If I need to work on a spreadsheet or crunch some real data then I need at least a laptop if not something bigger. That means that my iPad has replaced a laptop for me when I'm going on weekend trips but it sure as hell hasn't replaced my Precision M4500 laptop or T3500 workstation for other work.

WoodDraw
10-17-2012, 08:23 PM
It's funny, because when the iPad was first released, a lot of us were hoping for an OS X based device, rather than iOS. Now that the market has been set with that "type" of device, many people, including myself, are doubting whether such a market exists - at least right now.

We'll see. I wish Microsoft well, and I probably have some bias against them. Innovation is good though. I think their marketing is so confused they'll struggle to find any meaningful market share though.

AustinChief
10-17-2012, 10:00 PM
Pretty cool new system for Kindles...

https://whispercast.amazon.com/

Amazon’s free online tool that helps your organization
easily manage its Kindles and distribute Kindle content

Your school or business can now extend the benefits of Kindle to its students, employees, or customers. Whether you’re looking to distribute literature for class or use Kindle for your corporate training or incentive program, Whispercast helps you reduce the administrative cost and complexity of sending Kindle content and managing your Kindles.

AustinChief
10-17-2012, 10:05 PM
btw.. I agree with those here that see no use for a $500 Windows Rt tablet. just seems silly to me... but apparently others don't agree...

http://seattletimes.com/html/microsoftpri0/2019458752_pre-orders_of_499_microsoft_surface_sell_out.html

of course, we don;='t know how many were available for preorder... could be a ridiculously small number.

AustinChief
10-17-2012, 10:31 PM
IF Google really is launching a few new tricks at this event... gonna be a huge season for tablets starting in November...

http://www.nbcnews.com/technology/gadgetbox/google-event-oct-29-could-bring-new-nexus-devices-1C6532066

Guru
10-18-2012, 07:07 AM
IF Google really is launching a few new tricks at this event... gonna be a huge season for tablets starting in November...

http://www.nbcnews.com/technology/gadgetbox/google-event-oct-29-could-bring-new-nexus-devices-1C6532066

I can't see Google dropping the price to $99 on the Nexus 7. If they do, it will sell like hotcakes though.

WoodDraw
10-18-2012, 06:36 PM
IF Google really is launching a few new tricks at this event... gonna be a huge season for tablets starting in November...

http://www.nbcnews.com/technology/gadgetbox/google-event-oct-29-could-bring-new-nexus-devices-1C6532066

I don't think we'll see $99 either. The at cost price for a quality tablet is around $200. Unless they'll go the advertising route, but that doesn't flesh well with the Nexus "developer" brand.

A couple guesses:

That invitation looks like Google Now. So I think it's fair to say we'll see more there.

Also, the playground is open? More content deals maybe (please...)?

DaveNull
10-18-2012, 06:59 PM
Any Android device is already going the advertising route.

Fish
10-18-2012, 07:07 PM
Google is already significantly limiting their profit with the Nexus line.

The production cost of Google Nexus 7 8GB and 16GB media tablets, including both bill-of-materials as well as manufacturing cost, is $159.25 and $166.75, respectively.

http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/mobile/display/20120711220409_Google_Nexus_7_Costs_167_to_Manufacture_Teardown_Analysis.html

Dropping the price even more is great for the market overall, but I can't think Google can/would continue to lose more money on it by going with a lower price point. I mean, they obviously have the equity to absorb it right now. But eventually they need to make some money to justify the market participation and encourage further inovation.

DaveNull
10-18-2012, 07:24 PM
not to mention pissing off other android tablet manufacturers.

AustinChief
10-18-2012, 07:37 PM
Google is already significantly limiting their profit with the Nexus line.



Dropping the price even more is great for the market overall, but I can't think Google can/would continue to lose more money on it by going with a lower price point. I mean, they obviously have the equity to absorb it right now. But eventually they need to make some money to justify the market participation and encourage further inovation.

To be clear, Google does NOT lose money on the Nexus 7.. they don't make a whole lot, but it isn't sold at a loss. The rumor is that they will release a Nexus 7 II with better specs at the $200 price point and discount the old one (or have a new stripped down one) at $99. But it is a completely unfounded rumor, just some random dudes guessing at this point.

If by some miracle they do release a decent $99 tablet... or hell even a $149 tablet.. they should sell the bejezes out of them if they aren't total crap on the specs.

WoodDraw
10-18-2012, 09:18 PM
To be clear, Google does NOT lose money on the Nexus 7.. they don't make a whole lot, but it isn't sold at a loss. The rumor is that they will release a Nexus 7 II with better specs at the $200 price point and discount the old one (or have a new stripped down one) at $99. But it is a completely unfounded rumor, just some random dudes guessing at this point.

If by some miracle they do release a decent $99 tablet... or hell even a $149 tablet.. they should sell the bejezes out of them if they aren't total crap on the specs.

It has to be damn close when you factor in marketing, and all. Google had one goal with the Nexus - to prove that Android could work as a tablet. They were getting annoyed with shit, overpriced products and with Amazon.

But the Nexus has been out for what, six months? Maybe we'll see a 32 gig version, but I don't think Google will do anything more. As for 10in tablet, I don't know. But Google has never been good at keeping secrets, and we haven't seen anything there.

I think this announcement will be content based, and not hardware (other than new Nexus phone, which has been leaking for ages).

notorious
10-21-2012, 03:12 PM
So, should I wait on a Windows8 tablet to come out for my business or go with an Ipad or Android Tablet?

Pitt Gorilla
10-21-2012, 03:18 PM
American Airlines pilots are using iPads.

http://appleinsider.com/articles/12/09/11/american_airlines_pilots_begin_using_apples_ipad_during_all_phases_of_flight

as are many other pilots, including the Air Force.

http://www.kvoa.com/news/many-pilots-make-the-switch-from-paper-to-electronic-in-the-cockpit/

NewChief
10-21-2012, 03:24 PM
American Airlines pilots are using iPads.

http://appleinsider.com/articles/12/09/11/american_airlines_pilots_begin_using_apples_ipad_during_all_phases_of_flight

as are many other pilots, including the Air Force.

http://www.kvoa.com/news/many-pilots-make-the-switch-from-paper-to-electronic-in-the-cockpit/

Just please god make sure they turn them completely OFF during takeoff or landing. Those things are a hazard to airline safety!

notorious
10-21-2012, 03:35 PM
Ipad has awesome apps for Instrument approaches and weather.


Having a backlit ILS plate on my lap at night in bad weather would be very nice. Almost all of my pilot buddies have one.

BWillie
10-21-2012, 03:41 PM
I've found out Tablets are not for me. I don't have a use for 4 devices (desktop, laptop, tablet, smart phone). I have the admit though, the windows tablet that can also act as a laptop is a cool idea.

WoodDraw
10-21-2012, 03:41 PM
So, should I wait on a Windows8 tablet to come out for my business or go with an Ipad or Android Tablet?

Well you should wait until the end of this month. At that point, Microsoft, Google, and Apple will all have new products out.

After that, pick the one that you like the best and fits your needs the best.

notorious
10-21-2012, 04:07 PM
Well you should wait until the end of this month. At that point, Microsoft, Google, and Apple will all have new products out.

After that, pick the one that you like the best and fits your needs the best.

Thanks.

Mr. Laz
10-22-2012, 06:38 PM
Kindle Touch bites the dust

You're only allowed to touch the Paperwhite

By Simon Sharwood, APAC Editor (http://forms.theregister.co.uk/mail_author/?story_url=/2012/10/22/goodbye_kindle_touch/) • Get more from this author (http://search.theregister.co.uk/?author=Simon%20Sharwood)
Posted in Hardware (http://www.theregister.co.uk/hardware/), 22nd October 2012 23:35 GMT (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/10/22/)
Just a week after removing the jumbo-sized Kindle DX from its range of e-readers, Amazon has erased the Kindle Touch from its catalogue too.

The Touch was introduced just last year, as a mid-range e-reading option that improved on the eensy-weensy keyboard offered in early Kindles, and was rather more elegant to use than the four-way button on more recent pieces of kindling.

But the first 'readoslab' has not been able to survive the arrival of its brighter and similarly tactile brother, the Kindle PaperWhite, the Wi-Fi-only model of which usurped the Touch's US$119 price position.

There's more bad news for those keen on a Kindle, as Amazon says you can expect to wait four to six weeks before either Paperwhite model reaches your hands. ®

Fish
10-23-2012, 12:45 PM
It's interesting that the REAL tablet wars are just about to start.... considering Apple has now sold over 100 million iPads....

Better late than never I suppose..

:evil:

memyselfI
10-23-2012, 01:02 PM
I have an Asus Transformer 300t, Samsung Galaxy 3, a four year old desktop, and a two year old laptop. The laptop is used to stream Netflix to my TV and is rarely used for anything other than a backup when my office is busy hosting guests. It doubles as our guest room. All other activity is done on my tablet (which I love) and smartphone. I also still use my desktop daily. My laptop has become the disposable device. I thought it would be the desktop but nope.

I have been an Android user since G1 and could care less what Apple does.

underEJ
10-23-2012, 03:16 PM
I have been holding out on any new tech items for a while now to see how the surface pro looks. I have a few things I like to do on a computer and unfortunately they all need different hardware. I currently edit and do some 3d and 2d graphic side projects on my 8 year old apple G5, write extensively and watch movies while traveling on my 6 year old sony vaio micropc, read on a kindle, work/home email and browse the internet mostly on my droid.

I would pay alot of money to consolidate. I have been holding out because nothing new has offered to compete with what I currently have while also moving me toward my goal of less devices.

If I could consolidate all but the editing/ CG work (the power needed for that is unique and I'm not likely to find it portable,) it would be worth alot of money to me. The surface pro with a full featured operating system could be the first real contender, though it still falls short of my consolidation goal. If I could make a call now and again from it and made a choice to read on a back lit screen, I could have one mobile device and a monster desktop. HEAVEN.

Sadly, still waiting for the big winner, though I will look seriously at the Surface Pro. I think I probably am their target demographic, but it still falls short of my wish list.

DaveNull
10-23-2012, 04:43 PM
Isn't that kind of the overall problem with the Surface? It's either an underpowered laptop with crappy keyboard or an overpowered tablet running a desktop operating system.

htismaqe
10-24-2012, 07:45 AM
Kindle Touch bites the dust

You're only allowed to touch the Paperwhite

By Simon Sharwood, APAC Editor (http://forms.theregister.co.uk/mail_author/?story_url=/2012/10/22/goodbye_kindle_touch/) • Get more from this author (http://search.theregister.co.uk/?author=Simon%20Sharwood)
Posted in Hardware (http://www.theregister.co.uk/hardware/), 22nd October 2012 23:35 GMT (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/10/22/)
Just a week after removing the jumbo-sized Kindle DX from its range of e-readers, Amazon has erased the Kindle Touch from its catalogue too.

The Touch was introduced just last year, as a mid-range e-reading option that improved on the eensy-weensy keyboard offered in early Kindles, and was rather more elegant to use than the four-way button on more recent pieces of kindling.

But the first 'readoslab' has not been able to survive the arrival of its brighter and similarly tactile brother, the Kindle PaperWhite, the Wi-Fi-only model of which usurped the Touch's US$119 price position.

There's more bad news for those keen on a Kindle, as Amazon says you can expect to wait four to six weeks before either Paperwhite model reaches your hands. ®



Not at all unexpected given the response to the Kindle Fire. Technology was just progressing too quickly for the standalone e-reader to remain a viable device for very long...

htismaqe
10-24-2012, 07:47 AM
I have an Asus Transformer 300t, Samsung Galaxy 3, a four year old desktop, and a two year old laptop. The laptop is used to stream Netflix to my TV and is rarely used for anything other than a backup when my office is busy hosting guests. It doubles as our guest room. All other activity is done on my tablet (which I love) and smartphone. I also still use my desktop daily. My laptop has become the disposable device. I thought it would be the desktop but nope.

I have been an Android user since G1 and could care less what Apple does.

I think most people in your situation would ultimately decide the desktop is the one to go.

I've completely settled in with my iPad.

I use my laptop for work and my Android for making phone calls. I use the iPad for basically EVERYTHING else.

htismaqe
10-24-2012, 07:47 AM
Isn't that kind of the overall problem with the Surface? It's either an underpowered laptop with crappy keyboard or an overpowered tablet running a desktop operating system.

Basically.

Having used Windows 8 for several months, I wouldn't touch it with a 10-foot pole.

Deberg_1990
10-24-2012, 08:03 AM
I think most people in your situation would ultimately decide the desktop is the one to go.

I've completely settled in with my iPad.

I use my laptop for work and my Android for making phone calls. I use the iPad for basically EVERYTHING else.

I thin it just depends on an individuals preference and situation. For me it was the laptop. My kids now use my old laptops for games, etc.......I still like to use my desktop PC for any work or productivity work i do at home. I have a seperate den/office with a nice desk in my house so i like using the room. My iPad i use all around the house for any fun stuff like surfing and Netflix. I dont really play PC games anymore. Only console.

htismaqe
10-24-2012, 08:07 AM
I thin it just depends on an individuals preference and situation. For me it was the laptop. My kids now use my old laptops for games, etc.......I still like to use my desktop PC for any work or productivity work i do at home. I have a seperate den/office with a nice desk in my house so i like using the room. My iPad i use all around the house for any fun stuff like surfing and Netflix. I dont really play PC games anymore. Only console.

I have a similar setup - office with a desk, only play console games, etc.

What it came down to was that I like to be able to use productivity/desktop apps from places other than my desk. So the laptop won out over the desktop.

notorious
10-24-2012, 10:52 AM
I just saw the the Ipad Mini is going to run $329.

L.A. Chieffan
10-24-2012, 10:57 AM
They should call it the iPad 2 Mini.

The fucking thing doesnt even have a retina display. Weak sauce apple

Pitt Gorilla
10-24-2012, 11:38 AM
I think most people in your situation would ultimately decide the desktop is the one to go.

I've completely settled in with my iPad.

I use my laptop for work and my Android for making phone calls. I use the iPad for basically EVERYTHING else.Laptop for work, iPad for basically everything else.

Brock
10-24-2012, 11:49 AM
review of the surface

http://gizmodo.com/5953866/microsoft-surface-rt-review-this-is-technological-heartbreak?utm_source=deadspin.com&utm_medium=recirculation&utm_campaign=recirculation

htismaqe
10-24-2012, 11:58 AM
Laptop for work, iPad for basically everything else.

:thumb:

WoodDraw
10-24-2012, 12:07 PM
review of the surface

http://gizmodo.com/5953866/microsoft-surface-rt-review-this-is-technological-heartbreak?utm_source=deadspin.com&utm_medium=recirculation&utm_campaign=recirculation

The Verge gave it a pretty mild review too, although friendlier than that. Engadget gave a better one, but Engadget has been shit for awhile now.

Perhaps Microsoft should have kept these embargoed for a bit longer.

Deberg_1990
10-24-2012, 12:20 PM
heh, in fairness, it doesnt seem all that bad as a pure tablet. The problem is MS is marketing it as more.


Maybe its time to admit theres no such thing as a pure "all in one" do it all device.

Laptops and Dekstops are for productivity
Tablets are for fun.


Nothing wrong with that.

Buehler445
10-24-2012, 02:08 PM
heh, in fairness, it doesnt seem all that bad as a pure tablet. The problem is MS is marketing it as more.


Maybe its time to admit theres no such thing as a pure "all in one" do it all device.

Laptops and Dekstops are for productivity
Tablets are for fun.


Nothing wrong with that.

That's what I'm thinking. I can't imagine trying to plug any formulas in excel without a keyboard. It'd suck hard.

memyselfI
10-24-2012, 03:56 PM
I have a similar setup - office with a desk, only play console games, etc.

What it came down to was that I like to be able to use productivity/desktop apps from places other than my desk. So the laptop won out over the desktop.

Me too. I use the desktop for production and because I have a 22" monitor which I sit very close to. I love the huge monitor and big freakin keyboard. I love the spaciousness.

I think the reason I do NOT like the laptop is because it's like a small desktop. Whereas I like the tablet because it's like a huge smartphone that can do so much..

The laptop just isn't comfortable.

htismaqe
10-24-2012, 05:09 PM
Me too. I use the desktop for production and because I have a 22" monitor which I sit very close to. I love the huge monitor and big freakin keyboard. I love the spaciousness.

I think the reason I do NOT like the laptop is because it's like a small desktop. Whereas I like the tablet because it's like a huge smartphone that can do so much..

The laptop just isn't comfortable.

I have my laptop setup at my desk with 22" monitor, keyboard, and mouse on a docking station.

In all respects, AT MY DESK, it IS a desktop. But if I want to get up and take it in the other room, or with me on the road, I can.

memyselfI
10-24-2012, 05:29 PM
I have my laptop setup at my desk with 22" monitor, keyboard, and mouse on a docking station.

In all respects, AT MY DESK, it IS a desktop. But if I want to get up and take it in the other room, or with me on the road, I can.

Well, that is what I plan to do now that my desktop is starting to show it's age.

Time to build another one. Which is another reason I like desktops. I'm perfectly fine taking one a part and fiddling and fixing. A laptop...not so much.

htismaqe
10-24-2012, 05:36 PM
Well, that is what I plan to do now that my desktop is starting to show it's age.

Time to build another one. Which is another reason I like desktops. I'm perfectly fine taking one a part and fiddling and fixing. A laptop...not so much.

I used to be that way. Built dozens of PCs actually. I'm pretty comfortable taking laptops apart and fixing them.

However, I'm to the point now that if it isn't something I can fix, pull the HDD and throw the rest away.

Deberg_1990
10-24-2012, 06:59 PM
I used to be that way. Built dozens of PCs actually. I'm pretty comfortable taking laptops apart and fixing them.

However, I'm to the point now that if it isn't something I can fix, pull the HDD and throw the rest away.

Heh, I think that's how most of us are anymore. It's funny, I remember back in the 90s we geeks used to sit around and talk about specs and laugh at people who bought all in one motherboards. Now days everything has become all in one again and completely disposable.

Buehler445
10-24-2012, 07:48 PM
I have my laptop setup at my desk with 22" monitor, keyboard, and mouse on a docking station.

In all respects, AT MY DESK, it IS a desktop. But if I want to get up and take it in the other room, or with me on the road, I can.

That's what I've got. I paid more for a laptop with a docking station. It is a 13.3" with respectable capacity.

That's why I haven't put money in a tablet. Other than the neato factor, I can't pick up any functionality.

htismaqe
10-25-2012, 07:24 AM
That's what I've got. I paid more for a laptop with a docking station. It is a 13.3" with respectable capacity.

That's why I haven't put money in a tablet. Other than the neato factor, I can't pick up any functionality.

The thing is, as versatile as I've made my setup for the laptop, it still can't compete with the iPad for convenience.

Tablet OS'es are MUCH less bloated, which allows one to "sleep" instead of shutdown. Windows has to be shut down periodically so that it doesn't go schizoid. The iPad also doesn't have to be tethered to a power cord 90% of the time, either.

So if I've been watching TV for a couple hours and decide I want to look something up on the net, I'm reaching for the tablet because I can flip open the cover, do my search, read the output, and put the tablet away again, all in the time it would take my Windows laptop to BOOT.

Buehler445
10-25-2012, 09:06 AM
The thing is, as versatile as I've made my setup for the laptop, it still can't compete with the iPad for convenience.

Tablet OS'es are MUCH less bloated, which allows one to "sleep" instead of shutdown. Windows has to be shut down periodically so that it doesn't go schizoid. The iPad also doesn't have to be tethered to a power cord 90% of the time, either.

So if I've been watching TV for a couple hours and decide I want to look something up on the net, I'm reaching for the tablet because I can flip open the cover, do my search, read the output, and put the tablet away again, all in the time it would take my Windows laptop to BOOT.

I guess I am a little different.

I use my laptop for work too (docking station at home and at the office), so it gets shut down regularly. And I replaced the battery a year or so ago, so it will sleep all evening while I'm at home. If I use it much, I have to plug it in, but you have to do that with an Ipad also.

Coincidentally, my buddy has an Ipad, and every time I hop on it to check the weather or whatever, it has like 3% battery left. ROFL

htismaqe
10-25-2012, 09:47 AM
I guess I am a little different.

I use my laptop for work too (docking station at home and at the office), so it gets shut down regularly. And I replaced the battery a year or so ago, so it will sleep all evening while I'm at home. If I use it much, I have to plug it in, but you have to do that with an Ipad also.

My work PC has a piece of corporate crapware that prevents it from using S3 mode. I also can't leave it logged in overnight because if I do, it installs patches and shuts down, terminating everything running whether I want it to or not. Even if this wasn't the case, you can't consistently use sleep mode with Windows and expect it to behave properly over long periods of time.

I don't know what your business desktop environment is like but between the Windows domain stuff (trying to contact AD before a VPN tunnel exists) and the corporate bloatware, my work PC takes a good 3-4 minutes to boot to Windows desktop, so there's absolutely no comparison between it and the iPad for convenience.

Coincidentally, my buddy has an Ipad, and every time I hop on it to check the weather or whatever, it has like 3% battery left. ROFL

Now that's just sheer laziness. :D

Buehler445
10-25-2012, 10:23 AM
My work PC has a piece of corporate crapware that prevents it from using S3 mode. I also can't leave it logged in overnight because if I do, it installs patches and shuts down, terminating everything running whether I want it to or not. Even if this wasn't the case, you can't consistently use sleep mode with Windows and expect it to behave properly over long periods of time.

I don't know what your business desktop environment is like but between the Windows domain stuff (trying to contact AD before a VPN tunnel exists) and the corporate bloatware, my work PC takes a good 3-4 minutes to boot to Windows desktop, so there's absolutely no comparison between it and the iPad for convenience.



Now that's just sheer laziness. :D

I don't have any of that crap to deal with anymore. Thank freaking god. The only thing I have is a windows profile for the exchange server. So I have a logon for the office and another one for my house unassociated with the Exchange.

Mr. Laz
10-25-2012, 12:23 PM
Amazon debuts Kindle Windows 8 app

By Brian Heater (http://www.engadget.com/editor/brian-heater) http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.engadget.com/media/writer_rss.gif (http://www.engadget.com/editor/brian-heater/rss.xml) posted Oct 25th 2012 12:40PM
http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.engadget.com/media/post_icon_pr.gif


http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2012/10/kindle-windows-8-app.png (http://www.engadget.com/2012/10/25/amazon-debuts-kindle-windows-8-app/)

With all the hubbub surrounding today's Microsoft event (http://www.engadget.com/2012/10/25/windows-8-launch-stream/), who can blame Amazon for wanting to get in on the action? The mega-retailer used the opportunity to announce the Windows 8 version of its popular reading app. Interested parties can download the thing for free from the Windows Store, giving them access to the company's selection of 1.5 million titles. The app is available in English, French, German, Italian, Spanish and Portuguese and offers up good old Amazon features like Whispersync (http://www.engadget.com/tag/whispersync/). Amazon also used the opportunity to announce that Acer, Asus, Dell, HP, Lenovo and Samsung will be pre-loading the app on their devices. More information can be found in the source link below.

WoodDraw
10-25-2012, 02:50 PM
A few leaks today on the Nexus 10. Looks like Samsung is the manufacturer choice, which kind of sucks. But I'll wait and see.

Braincase
10-25-2012, 09:54 PM
My work PC has a piece of corporate crapware that prevents it from using S3 mode. I also can't leave it logged in overnight because if I do, it installs patches and shuts down, terminating everything running whether I want it to or not. Even if this wasn't the case, you can't consistently use sleep mode with Windows and expect it to behave properly over long periods of time.

I don't know what your business desktop environment is like but between the Windows domain stuff (trying to contact AD before a VPN tunnel exists) and the corporate bloatware, my work PC takes a good 3-4 minutes to boot to Windows desktop, so there's absolutely no comparison between it and the iPad for convenience.



Now that's just sheer laziness. :D

I'd kick an admin's ass. No reason for that in a properly configured AD environment. Yeah, there's some laziness, and it's on your network admins and AD designers. I've trimmed that **** up on multiple networks, and that's just wrong.

htismaqe
10-26-2012, 06:17 AM
I'd kick an admin's ass. No reason for that in a properly configured AD environment. Yeah, there's some laziness, and it's on your network admins and AD designers. I've trimmed that **** up on multiple networks, and that's just wrong.

Dude, our admins are in India and the Help Desk staff (in the Phillipines, no less) either 1) don't speak English or 2) can't spell "PC".

That's just one of the many, many issues with my work PC. A full 40% of the physical memory is permanently allocated to running corporate inventory, patching, and monitoring tools. In some cases, I've found that 2 or more applications actually perform the SAME FUNCTION. They install stuff via Marimba remote and if it works great. If it doesn't, or if they decide to stop using it, it never gets removed. Of course, I can't remove it either because we're not allowed admin rights.

I work for a Fortune 5 company. It's much, much more productive to just live with it.

Braincase
10-26-2012, 10:00 AM
Dude, our admins are in India and the Help Desk staff (in the Phillipines, no less) either 1) don't speak English or 2) can't spell "PC".

That's just one of the many, many issues with my work PC. A full 40% of the physical memory is permanently allocated to running corporate inventory, patching, and monitoring tools. In some cases, I've found that 2 or more applications actually perform the SAME FUNCTION. They install stuff via Marimba remote and if it works great. If it doesn't, or if they decide to stop using it, it never gets removed. Of course, I can't remove it either because we're not allowed admin rights.

I work for a Fortune 5 company. It's much, much more productive to just live with it.

I'll light a candle for you at church. I think I just became happier I work for a company of 60 people.

I taught 8 this week, went smooth. Found some interesting tricks, but I'm getting used to it. I think it will be a solid tablet OS, and has potential as a desktop OS.

Right now, I'm figuring out if I can swing an ASUS TaiChi Ultrabook when they become available.

(And please keep in mind, I am biased, so take my comments with a grain of salt. My career is pretty much Microsoft dependent.)

htismaqe
10-26-2012, 10:45 AM
I'll light a candle for you at church. I think I just became happier I work for a company of 60 people.

I taught 8 this week, went smooth. Found some interesting tricks, but I'm getting used to it. I think it will be a solid tablet OS, and has potential as a desktop OS.

Right now, I'm figuring out if I can swing an ASUS TaiChi Ultrabook when they become available.

(And please keep in mind, I am biased, so take my comments with a grain of salt. My career is pretty much Microsoft dependent.)

Don't get me wrong, I'm not really complaining. For what I get paid, I'd put up with a lot of shit. Especially considering that I work from home.

Interesting that you think 8 has desktop potential. I really don't. As a tablet OS, yes. But after using Consumer Preview for a few months, I just don't get it. It's Windows 7 with an XBox (and somewhat useless) front end.

Deberg_1990
10-26-2012, 10:50 AM
Interesting that you think 8 has desktop potential. I really don't. As a tablet OS, yes. But after using Consumer Preview for a few months, I just don't get it. It's Windows 7 with an XBox (and somewhat useless) front end.

This. I dont see many companies jumping from Win7 to 8. Maybe from Vista if they havent already migrated to 7.

kaplin42
10-26-2012, 12:30 PM
Just unboxed my RT now, going through the setup process. First impressions on form.

It thin and sleek
Some design like the power remind me of Apple's design, but it's a good thing
The external keyboard connection is awesome.

Will post more after I use it some.

WoodDraw
10-26-2012, 12:46 PM
Just unboxed my RT now, going through the setup process. First impressions on form.

It thin and sleek
Some design like the power remind me of Apple's design, but it's a good thing
The external keyboard connection is awesome.

Will post more after I use it some.

Oh let us know how it goes!

How comfortable is it to use off the desk? Can you just sit back in a chair with it, or does it feel a bit awkward?

What keyboard did you get? One of the touch or type covers?

kaplin42
10-26-2012, 02:21 PM
So just trying to explore the device and get used to Win. 8, these are more first observations.

• The external keyboard is nice. It’s touch, but will take a little while to get used to, but I really like it. Way better than anything I have used for the iPad. With this in mind, the way it physically connects is via magnet like the power adapter, and unless you get it exactly right, no external keyboard for you.
• The Win.8 interface is different. Im not sure I like it, but then it’s always hard to get used to something new.
• Much like the iOS, instant on is pretty slick. Apps just pop up and away you go.
• Yes there is an app store, yes it has popular apps, no you won’t be left out in the cold. More apps will obviously be coming in the immediate and long term future.
• OMG, Office 2013 comes with. You mean I can use this as a production device and not just a consumption device right out of the gate. /mindblown
• Forced to use Bing, which I hate. But hopefully that will change soon.
• Can access your Homegroup if you’re already a Win. 7 user. Mega bonus right there.
• Has a full Computer Management section just like all other versions of Windows.


I will be using this as my home mobile device for a while just to see how it works compared to an iPad. So far, I’m skeptically impressed. I like the way they are going with it, I just hope MS doesn’t leave it in the dust like they do so many other things.


http://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/w461/ZombieClownZ/Temporary/photobucket-2969-1351277968246.jpg

Braincase
10-26-2012, 08:11 PM
This. I dont see many companies jumping from Win7 to 8. Maybe from Vista if they havent already migrated to 7.

I'm dual booting with it right now. Normally in 7 I'll use Virtual Box to run my virtual machines, but in 8 there's a Client Hyper-V that has some interesting potential. That, and I'm exploring some of the productivity apps.

KCFalcon59
10-26-2012, 11:37 PM
• Forced to use Bing, which I hate. But hopefully that will change soon.[/IMG]

http://www.google.com/homepage/windows8/

DaveNull
10-27-2012, 10:01 AM
• OMG, Office 2013 comes with. You mean I can use this as a production device and not just a consumption device right out of the gate. /mindblown
• Forced to use Bing, which I hate. But hopefully that will change soon.

I will be using this as my home mobile device for a while just to see how it works compared to an iPad. So far, I’m skeptically impressed. I like the way they are going with it, I just hope MS doesn’t leave it in the dust like they do so many other things.


Watching some videos of Win8 generally makes this look like it lives in some weird reality where Apple went out of business years ago. Questions:

How's it work for things like streaming media out to external speakers or video receivers at your house? What do you use? Is there something built in? I'm guessing that if it is, then it requires an Xbox.

Even though it's running on ARM, are you planning on running AV and Anti Malware software on there? That seems like a big problem with their Intel version of the Surface.

I played with an Asus RT tablet the other night at Microcenter and found working within Windows Explorer with my finger to be maddening. Do you find yourself punting to the smart cover when you need to make a new folder?

Does the start screen/metro portion of the OS make enough sense for touch that you think it was worth it for Msft to integrate it so deeply into the desktop OS?

I really want Windows 8 to be something cool and useful...something that could really replace XP running in a VM for those times I need it. Right now, I'm not seeing the love.

Oh...

- I'll never understand the "it has office it's for creation" comments in relation to the iPad since you can read and write in Doc format from Pages.
- I'm a big fan of using the Apple Wireless Keyboard with the iPad. It's the same keyboard they give out with iMacs and can't be beat. Check it out if you end up ditching the surface.
- You *really* would have thought that Microsoft would have avoided getting heat from the EU and DOJ by not jamming Bing down as a search provider.

htismaqe
10-27-2012, 02:37 PM
Well that didn't take long...

kaplin42
10-27-2012, 03:02 PM
Keep in mind that I'm still playing with this so don't have it 100% figured out, but I will do my best to answer your questions. And for the record, I have been using iPads since the first one came out. Answers will be in red.



Watching some videos of Win8 generally makes this look like it lives in some weird reality where Apple went out of business years ago. Questions:

Windows 8 is a radical departure from the standard UI. It is more more based on the Windows phone UI, and is meant to be used on more of a touch screen environment. Mouse and keyboard work just fine, but since touch screen is where we are going as far as interface goes, this is the way the new OS's will be built Call it Apple-esque if you like, but it seems to me that Apple calls everything Apple-esque and that no one has had an original idea except Apple, ever. See patent lawsuits everywhere.

How's it work for things like streaming media out to external speakers or video receivers at your house? What do you use? Is there something built in? I'm guessing that if it is, then it requires an Xbox.

As for ports. There is a USB port for xferring data via external drive or flash drive, for mouse if you like, or full size keyboard, or for what ever else you have that uses USB. (Personal Note: This crushes iPad right here.) Second there is standard 3.5mm port for headphones and what not. Third there is a micro-HDMI port for all of your projecting/exporting to monitor/TV needs. In case you didn't know, HDMI carries sound as well. At least anything beyond the first model of HDMI.

Even though it's running on ARM, are you planning on running AV and Anti Malware software on there? That seems like a big problem with their Intel version of the Surface.

I played with an Asus RT tablet the other night at Microcenter and found working within Windows Explorer with my finger to be maddening. Do you find yourself punting to the smart cover when you need to make a new folder?

Let me get back to you on this, as I haven't gotten that far yet. It should also be noted that RT is not the full blown Win. 8 OS.

Does the start screen/metro portion of the OS make enough sense for touch that you think it was worth it for Msft to integrate it so deeply into the desktop OS?

Depends on the context. In a tablet sense like the RT, yes, it's really easy to use, and if you don't go all derp over how different it looks than a standard Win. OS, you can grasp it pretty easily. Using it say on a desktop, I could totally see how annoying it would be. There is however a patch that you can install that will make it look like a traditional Windows desktop.

I really want Windows 8 to be something cool and useful...something that could really replace XP running in a VM for those times I need it. Right now, I'm not seeing the love.

As for this, I don't know what to tell you. You should have left XP for 7. 7 killed anything and everything there was to love about it XP. 7 does anything XP does, better, faster, and a lot more securer. At this point it sounds like the problem of change is your issue, not the OS. Please understand I mean no offense, but that is the only thing that makes sense to me as why you wouldn't have changed. As for how 8 holds up, I will reserve my judgement till I actually get to use it for a little bit.

Oh...

- I'll never understand the "it has office it's for creation" comments in relation to the iPad since you can read and write in Doc format from Pages.

Unless your business soley revolves around the Apple environment, then Pages and the like are worthless. Plus, on the iPad, pages doesn't come with it. You have to buy it, and if I remember correctly, you have to buy Pages, Numbers and what ever the PowerPoint equivalent separately. The RT CAME with Word, Excel, Powerpoint, and OneNote 2013 loaded. These are the beta versions, but once they go live, you get a free upgrade. On top of that, M$ Office is the most widely used programs of their nature. Apples version holds no real accountable percentage of the market on this. On top of that, I recommend on the iPad getting Quick Office as opposed to any of the other Apple products, at least you can trade documents with the rest of the world that way. Beyond that, have you ever tried to actually be productive on an iPad. I mean seriously productive, not just responding to an email. But making a whole spread sheet, or writing a report for a cost/saving analysis. It's a goddamn nightmare. As much as Apple tries to pimp the iPad as a production type of device, it just isn't, it is much more of a consumption device

- I'm a big fan of using the Apple Wireless Keyboard with the iPad. It's the same keyboard they give out with iMacs and can't be beat. Check it out if you end up ditching the surface.

Have one, used it, it's ok. This surface keyboard has a little more AWESOME to it, mainly cause it's touch. All in all though, it's a keyboard, and until one will bring me a beer and give me head while I'm typing out posts, their really isn't much to say about them. But check out a surface you, you will be surprised.


- You *really* would have thought that Microsoft would have avoided getting heat from the EU and DOJ by not jamming Bing down as a search provider.

I understand why they want to push Bing, it's their product. Just like on iPads they push Safari :( but my hope is that Google will make an app for both Chrome and Google search soon. Otherwise, I totally agree with you.

htismaqe
10-27-2012, 03:21 PM
Keep in mind that I'm still playing with this so don't have it 100% figured out, but I will do my best to answer your questions. And for the record, I have been using iPads since the first one came out. Answers will be in red.

I agree with you on the UI.

Having used Consumer Preview for a few months on my regular old desktop, I felt like "WTF is this?"

Without a touchscreen, the UI doesn't seem to serve any real, useful purpose.

WoodDraw
10-27-2012, 03:37 PM
Pictures of the nexus 10 leaked. It looks very samsungy, which isn't a compliment. Boo

L.A. Chieffan
10-27-2012, 05:23 PM
Surface is lame, very unintuitive. iPad Mini is a ripoff. These "tablet wars" suck.

DaveNull
10-28-2012, 10:17 AM
Unless your business soley revolves around the Apple environment, then Pages and the like are worthless. Plus, on the iPad, pages doesn't come with it. You have to buy it, and if I remember correctly, you have to buy Pages, Numbers and what ever the PowerPoint equivalent separately. The RT CAME with Word, Excel, Powerpoint, and OneNote 2013 loaded. These are the beta versions, but once they go live, you get a free upgrade. On top of that, M$ Office is the most widely used programs of their nature. Apples version holds no real accountable percentage of the market on this. On top of that, I recommend on the iPad getting Quick Office as opposed to any of the other Apple products, at least you can trade documents with the rest of the world that way. Beyond that, have you ever tried to actually be productive on an iPad. I mean seriously productive, not just responding to an email. But making a whole spread sheet, or writing a report for a cost/saving analysis. It's a goddamn nightmare. As much as Apple tries to pimp the iPad as a production type of device, it just isn't, it is much more of a consumption device


So you do know that Pages reads and writes in Microsoft Word format, right? Doesn't matter much for me. I stopped using word processors a while ago after getting burned on format changes. Everything I do is in plain text written with Markdown (in either SublimeText, Notesy or Byword) that gets exported into any number of formats including Word, but usually PDF.

I see where you might be coming from on Excel, but anything beyond what I would do with a calculator I do using Soulver. If it's too complex for that, I probably want a 10 key anyway so I'll wait until I get to a proper desktop.

PowerPoint is a disaster. I'll take Keynote any day of the week and I think that if you do a non-trivial amount of public speaking it's worth getting a Mac just so you can use it.

As for this, I don't know what to tell you. You should have left XP for 7. 7 killed anything and everything there was to love about it XP. 7 does anything XP does, better, faster, and a lot more securer. At this point it sounds like the problem of change is your issue, not the OS. Please understand I mean no offense, but that is the only thing that makes sense to me as why you wouldn't have changed. As for how 8 holds up, I will reserve my judgement till I actually get to use it for a little bit.

I use XP very little at this point in my home environment. Just never got around to acquiring a license for 7. I use 7 on my big workstations and it's nice. Powershell seems like one step forward and two steps back, but that's my bias as someone who wants to do things like shell scripting and bash can't be beat in that regard. That's why I always install CYGWIN on the Windows boxes I use.

On my iPad if I really need to get into something on a Windows desktop, I've got a VM that lives in a datacenter so I can remote to it whenever. It's been months since I've needed that.

As for ports. There is a USB port for xferring data via external drive or flash drive, for mouse if you like, or full size keyboard, or for what ever else you have that uses USB. (Personal Note: This crushes iPad right here.) Second there is standard 3.5mm port for headphones and what not. Third there is a micro-HDMI port for all of your projecting/exporting to monitor/TV needs. In case you didn't know, HDMI carries sound as well. At least anything beyond the first model of HDMI.

Sounds like lots of wires. I was wondering if Microsoft had anything that came close to competing with AirPlay and it doesn't sound like it. I soured on cable type solutions for this after snapping a motherboard in two when I had my laptop plugged into my stereo and stood up while my foot was on the cable. Guess this gets back to the whole ecosystem discussion.

this is the way the new OS's will be built Call it Apple-esque if you like, but it seems to me that Apple calls everything Apple-esque and that no one has had an original idea except Apple, ever.

My short experience with that Win8 tablet leads me to say that nothing about it is Apple-esque and that's a really good thing. Metro is innovative and different...something that Microsoft needs. It's just unfortunate that they couldn't get everyone on the same page to release RT as a metro ONLY OS to push things a little harder.

By splitting the difference they're only going to discourage enterprises from upgrading depending on how much training they're obligated to give to their users.

Overall it sounds like the most compelling tablet to come out since the iPad that won't just disappear. I'm excited to play with the hardware, but I doubt that the stuff I use all the time will ever come over to that platform. Examples: OmniFocus, TextExpander, Instapaper, OmniOutliner. Each of those come from developers that have been focused on OS X for years. In the case of Omni, they were developers for NeXT.

DaveNull
10-28-2012, 10:57 AM
Was doing some more reading on the surface and came across the software update process (http://ozar.me/2012/10/why-im-returning-my-microsoft-surface-rt/):

For Windows RT Surface users, the update can be had by:

Head to the Control Panel version of Windows Update, not the Metro-accessible version that you use for more everyday settings changes.
Fire up a search for ‘Windows Update,’ and select ‘Install optional updates,’ instead of ‘Windows Update’ from the list of results.
If no updates are available, have the device run a check. If there are, then get going right away. The update is titled “Update for Microsoft Office Home & Student 201[3] RT Preview.”
Select it, and install.
Reboot.

Speaks for itself.

kaplin42
10-28-2012, 11:15 AM
Was doing some more reading on the surface and came across the software update process (http://ozar.me/2012/10/why-im-returning-my-microsoft-surface-rt/):



Speaks for itself.

Thanks for the info.

AustinChief
10-28-2012, 07:23 PM
Surface is lame, very unintuitive. iPad Mini is a ripoff. These "tablet wars" suck.

Well, truth be told, they haven't really started yet... the BIG push is supposed to come from new stuff from Google and continued price drops... that isn't supposed to happen until next week. Keep your pants on!

As I stated in the OP, I felt both the iPad mini and Windows RT would be meh. Windows 8 tabs should be a huge deal but not until after the new year... and really only huge for enterprise customers (although I see them quickly making consumer inroads if the prices are manageable)

WoodDraw
10-28-2012, 08:56 PM
I'd be very surprised if we saw any price drops. From all the leaks, Google is discontinuing the 8 gig model, and making the entry level 16 gigs. And the higher end will be 32.

And then launch a Nexus 4 and Nexus 10.

AustinChief
10-29-2012, 03:05 AM
I'd be very surprised if we saw any price drops. From all the leaks, Google is discontinuing the 8 gig model, and making the entry level 16 gigs. And the higher end will be 32.

And then launch a Nexus 4 and Nexus 10.

Just to be clear, I'm not talking about prices of an existing tablet dropping. I'm talking about prices in general dropping. We have already seen this with the Nook HD+ at $269 for a full sized tablet.

I am holding out hope for Google to try to sell something decent in the $99 - $150 range... but even if they don't and instead only offer a badass Nexus 10 at a sub $350 price... that is a huge price drop from any other "premium" tablet on the market.

HC_Chief
10-29-2012, 10:33 AM
Well, truth be told, they haven't really started yet... the BIG push is supposed to come from new stuff from Google and continued price drops... that isn't supposed to happen until next week. Keep your pants on!

As I stated in the OP, I felt both the iPad mini and Windows RT would be meh. Windows 8 tabs should be a huge deal but not until after the new year... and really only huge for enterprise customers (although I see them quickly making consumer inroads if the prices are manageable)

The Surface Pro will be somewhere in the 1100-1500 price range if rumors hold true. Seems like a lot for a tablet until you consider that these will be full-blown laptop replacements. I, for one, cannot wait to get my hands on one of those.

Braincase
10-29-2012, 04:26 PM
The Surface Pro will be somewhere in the 1100-1500 price range if rumors hold true. Seems like a lot for a tablet until you consider that these will be full-blown laptop replacements. I, for one, cannot wait to get my hands on one of those.

The ASUS TaiChi gives me tech wood.

htismaqe
10-29-2012, 04:27 PM
The Surface Pro will be somewhere in the 1100-1500 price range if rumors hold true. Seems like a lot for a tablet until you consider that these will be full-blown laptop replacements. I, for one, cannot wait to get my hands on one of those.

That's too much for a LAPTOP, let alone a tablet.

That price point is ridiculous.

AustinChief
10-29-2012, 04:39 PM
That's too much for a LAPTOP, let alone a tablet.

That price point is ridiculous.

Depends on the specs. I'm worried that you'll get "meh" specs and a $1200+ price. IF you get killer specs for $1000-$1200 for a device that replaces both a laptop and tablet.. well worth it to me. But it has to TRULY replace a laptop not just "sort of" replace one.

The cool part about this is that unlike Apple's bullshit, these prices won't be locked in. More and more hardware vendors will come online with this and drive prices down eventually. So even if these start at $2000.. who cares? The prices should drop fairly quickly.

Braincase
10-29-2012, 05:19 PM
Depends on the specs. I'm worried that you'll get "meh" specs and a $1200+ price. IF you get killer specs for $1000-$1200 for a device that replaces both a laptop and tablet.. well worth it to me. But it has to TRULY replace a laptop not just "sort of" replace one.

The cool part about this is that unlike Apple's bullshit, these prices won't be locked in. More and more hardware vendors will come online with this and drive prices down eventually. So even if these start at $2000.. who cares? The prices should drop fairly quickly.

One of the reasons I hate Apple. If you want the Apple OS, you have ZERO choice on hardware vendors. That's BS.

DaFace
10-29-2012, 05:35 PM
Not sure if this is thread-worthy, so I'll throw it in here. As expected, Google is expanding the Nexus line to include four phones/tablets:

Nexus 4: 8GB for $299; 16GB for $349; available unlocked and without a contract on 11/13 on the Google Play store in the U.S., U.K., Australia, France, Germany, Spain and Canada. The 16GB version will also be available through T-Mobile for $199, with a 2-year contract (check here for more details).
Nexus 7: 16GB for $199 and 32GB for $249; available in the U.S., U.K., Australia, France, Germany, Spain, Canada and Japan, and also through our retail partners Gamestop, Office Depot, Office Max, Staples and Walmart.
Nexus 7 with 32GB and mobile data: $299 and unlocked, on sale 11/13 in the Google Play store in the U.S., U.K., Australia, France, Germany, Spain and Canada.
Nexus 10: 16GB for $399; 32GB for $499; available on 11/13 in the Google Play Store in the U.S., U.K., Australia, France, Germany, Spain, Canada and Japan. You'll also be able to purchase the 32GB version in more than 2,000 Walmart stores in the U.S.



http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2012/10/nexus-best-of-google-now-in-three-sizes.html

AustinChief
10-29-2012, 07:57 PM
One of the reasons I hate Apple. If you want the Apple OS, you have ZERO choice on hardware vendors. That's BS.

Yep, I have to buy a stupid Apple now so I can program iPhone apps. They won't even let you code for them without using OSX. Craptastic.

At least the new iMac minis look decent and aren't horribly overpriced.

AustinChief
10-29-2012, 08:06 PM
Not sure if this is thread-worthy, so I'll throw it in here. As expected, Google is expanding the Nexus line to include four phones/tablet
http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2012/10/nexus-best-of-google-now-in-three-sizes.html

A bit underwhelming... I was hoping for an update to the 7 and possibly a slight price drop.

The Nexus 10 sounds fantastic from what I hear. Having multiple profiles for users is a major major major plus. But was also hoping it would retail about $50 cheaper.

Selling the $499 32GB version thru Walmart should be a major boost to sales though.

Best news is that for $100 less than an iPad, you get a MUCH better device.

Better display, faster processor, better speakers, NFC, 2x the RAM and better cameras.

http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2012/10/nexus-10-vs-apple-ipad-vs-microsoft-surface-rt/

WoodDraw
10-29-2012, 09:04 PM
A bit underwhelming... I was hoping for an update to the 7 and possibly a slight price drop.


It did get an update,

8->16gigs
16->32gigs

And a new 3G option. Let's remember that the Nexus 7 has only been out since July, and in some countries a matter of weeks. A lot of consumers (even techy ones) think that the upgrade cycle with tablets and cellphones is too aggressive. Doing any serious upgrade this soon would be a bit brutal.


A big, overlooked part of this upgrade is the new content deals. Warner signs up finally, more content deals in other countries, and Google announces launch of a Google Music Matching system. Getting closer to parity in content.

DaveNull
10-29-2012, 11:02 PM
Yep, I have to buy a stupid Apple now so I can program iPhone apps. They won't even let you code for them without using OSX. Craptastic.

At least the new iMac minis look decent and aren't horribly overpriced.

So? You can't get Visual Studio for OS X. I can't imagine that you'd want to build for a platform you can't test on.

Mack
10-30-2012, 01:21 AM
GuildWars is currently only available for Windows, not Android. There is a Wine-wrapper for it if you want to run it on a Mac, but getting it to run on an Android is an entirely different matter.
Hardware-wise it should run just fine, but since the OS is not compatible I can't see how you would get it to run.

Silock
10-30-2012, 04:18 AM
A bit underwhelming... I was hoping for an update to the 7 and possibly a slight price drop.

The Nexus 10 sounds fantastic from what I hear. Having multiple profiles for users is a major major major plus. But was also hoping it would retail about $50 cheaper.

Selling the $499 32GB version thru Walmart should be a major boost to sales though.

Best news is that for $100 less than an iPad, you get a MUCH better device.

Better display, faster processor, better speakers, NFC, 2x the RAM and better cameras.

http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2012/10/nexus-10-vs-apple-ipad-vs-microsoft-surface-rt/

But no SD card slot! OMFG! THE HUMANITY!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Guru
10-30-2012, 05:12 AM
But no SD card slot! OMFG! THE HUMANITY!!!!!!!!!!!!!

AS I say for apple. It is dumb not to include one.

Silock
10-30-2012, 05:31 AM
AS I say for apple. It is dumb not to include one.

Cloud > SD

Guru
10-30-2012, 06:02 AM
Cloud > SD
only if you have 3g/4g or wifi in the area. I want my device to be as mobile as possible without having to spend money I shouldn't have to. Not to mention the bandwidth limits carriers like to instill.

And anyway, how much can it possibly cost to put that tiny little slot in there that allows up to 64 or even 128 extra gb. Nope, they have to find a way to charge you $100 -200 more for that little bit of space.

Silock
10-30-2012, 02:07 PM
only if you have 3g/4g or wifi in the area. I want my device to be as mobile as possible without having to spend money I shouldn't have to. Not to mention the bandwidth limits carriers like to instill.

And anyway, how much can it possibly cost to put that tiny little slot in there that allows up to 64 or even 128 extra gb. Nope, they have to find a way to charge you $100 -200 more for that little bit of space.

In my years of owning a tablet, I've yet to need more than the built in storage. I not quite sure how that means it's less mobile. Not trying to be a dick. I just really don't understand what you are saying in that respect.

HC_Chief
10-30-2012, 02:17 PM
So? You can't get Visual Studio for OS X. I can't imagine that you'd want to build for a platform you can't test on.

Parallels, dual-boot, or simply run Windows on the Mac hardware... all valid options, but all a bit ridiculous (Parallels is pretty cool, I have to admit).

Apples are great for self-absorbed hipster kids in fake eyeglasses & skinny jeans, blogging away in coffee shops. ;) Their market was built on Windows Vista. Perhaps Windows 8, with its radical departure from a traditional desktop experience, will give rise to a valid third option? Perhaps a more user-friendly Linux distro (Ubuntu is very user-friendly IMO, but to most non-technical people, it is still too difficult to use).

htismaqe
10-30-2012, 02:44 PM
Parallels, dual-boot, or simply run Windows on the Mac hardware... all valid options, but all a bit ridiculous (Parallels is pretty cool, I have to admit).

Apples are great for self-absorbed hipster kids in fake eyeglasses & skinny jeans, blogging away in coffee shops. ;) Their market was built on Windows Vista. Perhaps Windows 8, with its radical departure from a traditional desktop experience, will give rise to a valid third option? Perhaps a more user-friendly Linux distro (Ubuntu is very user-friendly IMO, but to most non-technical people, it is still too difficult to use).

There are Ubuntu-based distro's (LinuxMint anyone?) that are VERY user-friendly.

htismaqe
10-30-2012, 02:48 PM
Oops, I posted this in the wrong thread...

So I just had a discussion with a customer about Surface, RT, and Windows 8. They're a BIG fan and say they much prefer Microsoft's solution vs. the iPad and Android. Why?

Because it runs all the shit they already run. That's the pitch, right there.

Great new features? Maybe. But it runs Office!

I've come to realize that most of our discussion is misplaced. Of course the potential $1200 price tag is too high - for a HOME USER.

Guru
10-30-2012, 03:05 PM
In my years of owning a tablet, I've yet to need more than the built in storage. I not quite sure how that means it's less mobile. Not trying to be a dick. I just really don't understand what you are saying in that respect.

No problem. The cloud has its uses and I really do see the value in it. I just disagree that it is a visible solution for streaming large files for entertainment solutions. Why they can't just put out a single 16gb device with a SD slot is baffling to me. Let people decide how much local storage they need for themselves.

Some of us have no desire for monthly fees, network drops or lack of coverage areas.

Oh and not to mention the oversized movie files. Movies do not need to be that large of a file for streaming.

Fish
10-30-2012, 03:25 PM
No problem. The cloud has its uses and I really do see the value in it. I just disagree that it is a visible solution for streaming large files for entertainment solutions. Why they can't just put out a single 16gb device with a SD slot is baffling to me. Let people decide how much local storage they need for themselves.

Some of us have no desire for monthly fees, network drops or lack of coverage areas.

Oh and not to mention the oversized movie files. Movies do not need to be that large of a file for streaming.

Streaming solutions are clearly the future. Streaming solutions work right now. They just haven't been embraced fully because most of the media outlets are still delusionally hanging on to antiqued methods. And file size doesn't make that big of a difference in streaming capabilities. I'm currently streaming 12+GB movies in 1080p with no problems. It doesn't take an insane download speed or awesome computer specs either.

Movie files are going to continue to grow. The overwhelming majority wants better picture and better sound. Soon HD will be the only available format for streaming. Which further eliminates using an SD card. The powers that be have too much invested in cloud storage at this point, than to do anything except force people to embrace it.

DaveNull
10-30-2012, 06:16 PM
Parallels, dual-boot, or simply run Windows on the Mac hardware... all valid options, but all a bit ridiculous (Parallels is pretty cool, I have to admit).

Apples are great for self-absorbed hipster kids in fake eyeglasses & skinny jeans, blogging away in coffee shops. ;) Their market was built on Windows Vista. Perhaps Windows 8, with its radical departure from a traditional desktop experience, will give rise to a valid third option? Perhaps a more user-friendly Linux distro (Ubuntu is very user-friendly IMO, but to most non-technical people, it is still too difficult to use).


http://photos.appleinsider.com/mars1208060-2.jpg

That's not a coffee shop. That's the NASA control room.

Then there's this from a retired JPL engineer:

"People started bringing their own into work, and pretty soon a lot of other people followed. Soon they became almost standard issue at JPL, where they were popular in imaging work, especially creating large mosaics, and when OS X came out there was the added advantage of an OS that was UNIX based."

Any one of my Macs is more capable out of the box than any Windows machine out of the box because of the Unix underpinnings. It may be true that you can find someone that remembers a lot of the old DOS commands that can whip together some batch scripts in Windows, but a ton of that functionality was killed off. As I said above, PowerShell is a step in the right direction, but also seems to step back.

A few months ago I started playing with it and was overcome with glee when Powershell correctly interpreted my 'ls' command as one to list the directory contents, but then realized that I didn't know all the PowerShell ls flags so I dropped back to dir. Unfortunately 'dir' functions differently in PowerShell than it does in the typical command prompt.

So it was back to download CYGWIN and get a proper shell again.

Kind of like being a libertarian, there are two ways to get to being a Mac user. Either you want something more powerful than Windows or you want something that's more stable and easier to use than Windows. Either way, you end up using OS X.

As far as Parallels vs. VMWare, Parallels got a good head start but got quickly overtaken by VMWare once they pulled their shit together. Fusion is great and you aren't forced to look at ads while you use it.

Oh, and unlike Visual Studio you can get Xcode for *free* with OS X.

DaveNull
10-30-2012, 06:28 PM
Back on topic though...sounds like Ballmer is really excited to announce those blockbuster numbers from Surface and Windows 8:

WSJ: How has the public reception been for Windows 8 and the Surface in the first few days?

Mr. Ballmer: Numerically there's not really much that's interesting to report. If you were to call the retailers, they would say, 'Hey, off to a very good start.' We're out of stock a lot of places on touch [screen] machines. I was at a dinner in San Francisco last week, and I brought out this beautiful, very thin [touch-screen] laptop, and they said, 'Wow, I never thought touch could be valuable and important in a laptop.'

WSJ: Would you prefer Apple's business model, in which it controls the hardware and the software?

Mr. Ballmer: We like our model, as we are evolving it. In every category Apple competes, it's the low-volume player, except in tablets. In the PC market, obviously the advantage of diversity has mattered since 90-something percent of PCs that get sold are Windows PCs. We'll see what winds up mattering in tablets.

Guess he hasn't heard of this iPhone thing. I hear the kids really like it.

If you find yourself a fan of what Microsoft does at all you should read this article. (http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/microsoft-development-leader-craig-mundie-on-the-future-of-computers-a-863103.html) If you thought it was astounding that Ballmer still has a job wait until you read this. Fun part:

SPIEGEL: Microsoft's track record at anticipating technological trends hasn't always been the best. With the Surface tablet and the new Windows 8 software you are now targeting the mobile market in particular. Is it 10 years too late once again?

Mundie: My response is that we had a music player before the iPod. We had a touch device before the iPad. And we were leading in the mobile phone space. So, it wasn't for a lack of vision or technological foresight that we lost our leadership position. The problem was that we just didn't give enough reinforcement to those products at the time that we were leading. Unfortunately, the company had some executional missteps, which occurred right at the time when Apple launched the iPhone. With that, we appeared to drop a generation behind.

SPIEGEL: What happened?

Mundie: During that time, Windows went through a difficult period where we had to shift a huge amount of our focus to security engineering. The criminal activity in cyberspace was growing dramatically ten years ago, and Microsoft was basically the only company that had enough volume for it to be a target. In part because of that, Windows Vista took a long time to be born.

Now I can understand towing the company line and all. But here's the biggest shock. Let's take as read the idea that in each instance of non-PC type computers Microsoft was there first and in each instance had their lunch eaten first by Apple with the iPod, RIM with the Blackberry and Apple with the iPad.

This is my 20th year at Microsoft. Bill Gates and Nathan Myhrvold hired me to develop the company's capability in non-PC computing.

How does this asshole still have a job? Scott Forstall gets canned because iOS 6 maps is sub-par while this guy totally misses the boat on what is allegedly his entire job over and over and still gets paid? WTF?

HC_Chief
10-30-2012, 08:12 PM
http://photos.appleinsider.com/mars1208060-2.jpg

That's not a coffee shop. That's the NASA control room.

Oh, and unlike Visual Studio you can get Xcode for *free* with OS X.

Heh, NASA, HUGE Microsoft shop for both software and services. Same with DoD. Pretty much the entire government, really...same as the private sector. Sure, the Macs are popping up in ones, twos, threes...they are great consumer products; they just can't get much traction in the real world, where work gets done. In every single BYOD initiative you will hear the same question: "how do I make a consumer device useful in the workplace?" Followed immediately by "how the hell do we control/manage these devices?". That is, of course, if your security group will allow the devices in the building.

Xcode? WTF is that? I can get Eclipse for free too...not much use if you're writing .NET; most shops that write .NET have an ELA, meaning they will have the appropriate IDE for the job. With the "free" software you can hack your way through it, if you are lucky enough to have someone who knows how to do that, but why bother? You will end up spending more money on the effort in man hours. Same old story: save a few dollars in licenses, spend ten times as much in fumbling through defining a process to make up for not correctly investing your software budget.

HC_Chief
10-30-2012, 09:01 PM
Because it runs all the shit they already run. That's the pitch, right there.

Great new features? Maybe. But it runs Office!

That is exactly the selling point: combining the form factor, consumer capability, and laptop/pc functionality into a single device.

The iPad is a great consumer device; it was revolutionary, but really no more than a high-tech toy. The potential is absolutely there; problem is Apple has their ecosystem completely locked down. While this is a boon for them in the short term, Microsoft's bet it is a long-term bust. If the Surface can combine the form factor with the functionality of the laptop, why continue screwing around with Apple's consumer product?

htismaqe
10-30-2012, 10:56 PM
That is exactly the selling point: combining the form factor, consumer capability, and laptop/pc functionality into a single device.

That's just the thing - at a price point of over $1000, it has ZERO "consumer" capability.

My customer literally said they don't care how much it costs, it runs Windows and Office and that's what they need.

Microsoft is the RJ Reynolds of the 21st century. :D

The iPad is a great consumer device; it was revolutionary, but really no more than a high-tech toy. The potential is absolutely there; problem is Apple has their ecosystem completely locked down. While this is a boon for them in the short term, Microsoft's bet it is a long-term bust.

Microsoft envies Apple's locked down ecosystem. They're actively trying to emulate it.

If the Surface can combine the form factor with the functionality of the laptop, why continue screwing around with Apple's consumer product?

Because Apple's consumer product has a consumer price point. The Surface, right now, does not.

Guru
10-31-2012, 01:01 AM
Streaming solutions are clearly the future. Streaming solutions work right now. They just haven't been embraced fully because most of the media outlets are still delusionally hanging on to antiqued methods. And file size doesn't make that big of a difference in streaming capabilities. I'm currently streaming 12+GB movies in 1080p with no problems. It doesn't take an insane download speed or awesome computer specs either.

Movie files are going to continue to grow. The overwhelming majority wants better picture and better sound. Soon HD will be the only available format for streaming. Which further eliminates using an SD card. The powers that be have too much invested in cloud storage at this point, than to do anything except force people to embrace it.

Never said it wasn't the future. Its not the streaming that bothers me either. Its the bandwidth it uses. I can barely stream HD now. I can do Vudu HD barely and not HDX at all. I don't like seeing chunks of my monthly bandwidth getting eaten up by movies either. Especially with the rising costs of internet options.

What is really annoying is webpages keep evolving to utilize higher bandwidth so you can't even stay on slower connections anymore.

DaveNull
10-31-2012, 07:55 AM
If the Surface can combine the form factor with the functionality of the laptop, why continue screwing around with Apple's consumer product?

Probably because the ability to run Office and Windows isn't the main selling point. People like iOS because its *not* Windows. Unless you're a mid-level IT manager who hates that someone would question the selection of tools that they're mandated to use.

Xcode? WTF is that? I can get Eclipse for free too...not much use if you're writing .NET; most shops that write .NET have an ELA, meaning they will have the appropriate IDE for the job. With the "free" software you can hack your way through it, if you are lucky enough to have someone who knows how to do that, but why bother? You will end up spending more money on the effort in man hours. Same old story: save a few dollars in licenses, spend ten times as much in fumbling through defining a process to make up for not correctly investing your software budget.

You've completely missed my point...or proved it...I can't exactly tell through the fog of your ignorance of how development outside the windows enterprise world works.

The toolkit that you need to develop native OS X and iOS applications is free...no ELA needed. It's also a big reason why there is more innovative software being written for OS X and iOS at this point, unless you're talking about server side stuff.

Fish
10-31-2012, 08:13 AM
Never said it wasn't the future. Its not the streaming that bothers me either. Its the bandwidth it uses. I can barely stream HD now. I can do Vudu HD barely and not HDX at all. I don't like seeing chunks of my monthly bandwidth getting eaten up by movies either. Especially with the rising costs of internet options.

What is really annoying is webpages keep evolving to utilize higher bandwidth so you can't even stay on slower connections anymore.

Ahh... I forgot that you count GBs like most people count calories. That would explain things.

I'm pretty much at the opposite end of the spectrum. Sometimes I use 100-140GB of bandwidth a month.

HC_Chief
10-31-2012, 09:46 AM
Probably because the ability to run Office and Windows isn't the main selling point. People like iOS because its *not* Windows. Unless you're a mid-level IT manager who hates that someone would question the selection of tools that they're mandated to use.

Welcome to the business world.
BYOD is starting to grow, but it is slow in adoption. Surface is hitting at the right time...a device that can truly bridge the gap (Pro). The RT is just a commercial device, like the current tablet techsphere.

You've completely missed my point...or proved it...I can't exactly tell through the fog of your ignorance of how development outside the windows enterprise world works.

The toolkit that you need to develop native OS X and iOS applications is free...no ELA needed. It's also a big reason why there is more innovative software being written for OS X and iOS at this point, unless you're talking about server side stuff.

You just reiterated my point. If you want to write code for commercial use on a locked ecosystem with severely limited integration in the business world, use the appropriate IDE. As for "more innovative", hehe, I disagree. Unless, of course, style over substance = "innovation"? That brings me back to my statement about self-absorbed hipster kids solipsisticly blogging away in coffee shops about how they're going to change the world...

Fish
10-31-2012, 10:33 AM
Welcome to the business world.
BYOD is starting to grow, but it is slow in adoption. Surface is hitting at the right time...a device that can truly bridge the gap (Pro). The RT is just a commercial device, like the current tablet techsphere.



You just reiterated my point. If you want to write code for commercial use on a locked ecosystem with severely limited integration in the business world, use the appropriate IDE. As for "more innovative", hehe, I disagree. Unless, of course, style over substance = "innovation"? That brings me back to my statement about self-absorbed hipster kids solipsisticly blogging away in coffee shops about how they're going to change the world...

The ecosystem is changing fast. Over the last 5 years, all the upper level techs in my department have switched to Macs for their main system. Mainly because the majority of the executives at the top have switched to Mac. Supporting both PC and Mac is a requirement now, not a luxury. The Macs run OS X and Windows both, and that versatility makes them much more useful and worth the additional price.

It's so far from the self-absorbed hipster image you have in your mind, that it makes you look a little out of touch. I've introduced hundreds of iPads into our ecosystem over the last few years. And not to snobby hipsters, but shiny suit executives. If you completely shun Apple these days, you're going to significantly limit yourself in the IT field.

NewChief
10-31-2012, 11:06 AM
It's so far from the self-absorbed hipster image you have in your mind, that it makes you look a little out of touch. I've introduced hundreds of iPads into our ecosystem over the last few years. And not to snobby hipsters, but shiny suit executives. If you completely shun Apple these days, you're going to significantly limit yourself in the IT field.

I'm not in IT, and these were my exact thoughts. Do people really still think that only yuppie starbucks drinkers are rocking macs? That's kind of silly.

kaplin42
10-31-2012, 11:25 AM
I'm not in IT, and these were my exact thoughts. Do people really still think that only yuppie starbucks drinkers are rocking macs? That's kind of silly.

I am in IT. I completely hate apple as an enterprise solution. I find that it fights everything that we try and do. It's use it their way or not at all, which to me is the bonus of Windows, the versatility.

We have introduced 300+ New iPads 8 months ago. About 1/5 of our teachers have found a viable use for them other than a digital picture frame.

As a school, we want to go to a 1:1 next year for our students. There was a lot of desire to have iPads be that device. But there is just no way that it will work. It is so inconvenient to do anything of meaningful production on an iPad, it's not even funny.


With all that being said, while I will never support the idea of Apple in an enterprise setting, I will support the devices. To do otherwise is career suicide for IT. Like it or not, Apple is becoming more prevelant.

Fish
10-31-2012, 11:51 AM
It was initially difficult to implement OS X and iOS into our previously Windows only environment. We do everything on Exchange and Active Directory. But once it's set up it works very well. All of our Macs now authenticate to AD for login. I have scripts configured that automatically mount network shares depending on login name and location. We can image new machines, install software, and diagnose Mac machines all from a network boot. DeployStudio (http://www.deploystudio.com/Home.html) is awesome for this.

And if you're having trouble standardizing your enterprise iPads, definitely look into the Apple Configurator (https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/apple-configurator/id434433123?mt=12) app. It will save you hours and hours of configuration, and let you keep all your iPads standardized and under your control. Don't just hand your users a fresh iPad and expect them to start being productive with them. That doesn't work at all in my experience. The large majority of users have completely unrealistic expectations and very little experience with getting any productivity out of an iPad. We've implemented a iPad Productivity program for new iPad users, which has worked wonders. It's been clear that users need to be shown how to use them correctly, before you introduce them to the user base.

The problem we've run into, is that many of the people requesting and using work funds to buy iPads, don't want to use them for anything except being a $500 web browser and e-mail portal. Which is a waste of funds.

HC_Chief
10-31-2012, 12:29 PM
It's so far from the self-absorbed hipster image you have in your mind, that it makes you look a little out of touch. I've introduced hundreds of iPads into our ecosystem over the last few years. And not to snobby hipsters, but shiny suit executives. If you completely shun Apple these days, you're going to significantly limit yourself in the IT field.

I'm, of course, being facetious. ;) Macs are great consumer tools but they are slllllllllloooooowwwwwww in making any real impact in the workplace. The iPad and iPhone are the two devices that are having the greatest traction. Iphone, because Blackberry is a PITA and Android is not secure. The iPad, due to form factor.

For most business work, you need coroporate communications (e.g. mail, messaging), Excel, Word, and Acrobat. You then have line of business applications that perform various functions. Apple products can, for the most part, connect & participate in the business world, but there is additional configuration that is needed, there is additional cost for the products themselves, and there are compatability hurdles that must be overcome. THis all means additional COST. To business, additional COST is bad. Business exists for profit; if they can do all the things they need to do using a PC laptop at .25 the price point of an Apple solution, you better believe that is what they are going to do.

Apple has been fantastic is marketing their products to the consumer world. Their devices are tailor-made to consumers. You have to modify their behavior & make concessions to make them a business-friendly device (exception being very basic stuff like running a small business; which I have done using a MacBook Pro).

The iPad form factor is nearly perfect. Problem is it's just a big iPod touch. While super cool, and it has untold potential, it is still limited by its focus on being the ultimate consumer tablet device. Kudos to Apple, they achieved that goal.

Business people are also consumers. They love their consumer platforms and want to use them at work; thus the rise in bring your own device (BYOD ) initiatives. The problem is integrating these devices that are not bult for integration, management, and business is a big challenge. Yes, it can be done, but it is not cheap. Again, business exists to make a profit. Yeah, it would be super neat to be able to do all your work on an iPad, but the cost of doing that is unjustifiable for most.

This is where the Surface comes in. It is a business device, running the desktop OS that runs all of the applications businesses already run, can be integrated and administrered like their existing platforms with no additional cost, AND provides the awesome form factor of the iPad. That is a winning proposition. That, of course, is in reference to the Surface Pro. The RT, on the other hand, is simple Microsoft's version of the iPad: a cool form factor for basic consumer needs, e.g. surfing the web, social media, checking web mail, Skype.

The cool thing about Surface is it's not a different OS from the desktop. Apple has OSX and iOS; they are distinct. Surface, the PC, laptop, and Phone all run W8. Consistent experience + integrated functionality + ability to use as both a business and consumer device; I think it's a great idea. Execution on that idea is the key; that's where Microsoft needs to be on their game. Now that the idea is out there, Google, Apple, Amazon, Samsung, and others will try to do the same thing. If they can execute more efficiently, we will all win as consumers. Nothing breeds excellence more than true competition.

htismaqe
10-31-2012, 02:26 PM
The ecosystem is changing fast. Over the last 5 years, all the upper level techs in my department have switched to Macs for their main system. Mainly because the majority of the executives at the top have switched to Mac. Supporting both PC and Mac is a requirement now, not a luxury. The Macs run OS X and Windows both, and that versatility makes them much more useful and worth the additional price.

It's so far from the self-absorbed hipster image you have in your mind, that it makes you look a little out of touch. I've introduced hundreds of iPads into our ecosystem over the last few years. And not to snobby hipsters, but shiny suit executives. If you completely shun Apple these days, you're going to significantly limit yourself in the IT field.

We have about 25000 iPad 2's in the field. They work great.

HC_Chief
10-31-2012, 02:36 PM
We have about 25000 iPad 2's in the field. They work great.

WOW, that is quite a deployment. Have you guys developed a case study/whitepaper on it? I know of several companies struggling with the concept; guidance and working examples would be beneficial to them.

MOhillbilly
10-31-2012, 02:51 PM
Did Google put out a tablet? If so did the advertisement for the tablet have a sound track from the greatest speed metal album evah?

HC_Chief
10-31-2012, 03:09 PM
Did Google put out a tablet? If so did the advertisement for the tablet have a sound track from the greatest speed metal album evah?

That was unexpected... "Whoa, is that Raining Blood?"

htismaqe
10-31-2012, 05:05 PM
WOW, that is quite a deployment. Have you guys developed a case study/whitepaper on it? I know of several companies struggling with the concept; guidance and working examples would be beneficial to them.

I'm sure there's all kinds of marketing info out there, I can't really go into details without giving up personal info I don't want to give up.

It's pretty basic - Ipad + Afaria + Good for Enterprise.

Guru
10-31-2012, 05:19 PM
Ahh... I forgot that you count GBs like most people count calories. That would explain things.

I'm pretty much at the opposite end of the spectrum. Sometimes I use 100-140GB of bandwidth a month.

My kids are getting better about not abusing netflix but with a 150 gb limit, I still have to keep an eye on it.

Mr. Laz
10-31-2012, 05:43 PM
Ahh... I forgot that you count GBs like most people count calories. That would explain things.

I'm pretty much at the opposite end of the spectrum. Sometimes I use 100-140GB of bandwidth a month.
wow ... you are pretty hostile when it comes to electronics.


LMAO

Fish
10-31-2012, 06:59 PM
wow ... you are pretty hostile when it comes to electronics.


LMAO

What do you mean?

TribalElder
10-31-2012, 07:59 PM
The surface tablet is a clustered piece of shit

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lxm2n4Tx991rn50x7o1_500.png

kaplin42
10-31-2012, 09:10 PM
The surface tablet is a clustered piece of shit

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lxm2n4Tx991rn50x7o1_500.png

is it perfect, nope, but it isn't a pos either.

There re some pretty cool things about it.

Guru
10-31-2012, 10:48 PM
wow ... you are pretty hostile when it comes to electronics.


LMAO

What do you mean?

Guess he missed out on our last conversation about that subject. LMAO

BTW, he wasn't being hostile at all.

Mr. Laz
11-01-2012, 01:23 PM
is the Nexus 7 any good?

KCFalcon59
11-01-2012, 02:14 PM
is the Nexus 7 any good?

I like it. Nice screen, fast, perfect size for the hand, light. I have the 16 GB. Only thing it lacks is an SD Card slot to expand the memory. Hence why I bought the 16. Now you can get the 32 GB for what the 16 GB used to cost. Can't go wrong with it. IMHO

Mr. Laz
11-01-2012, 02:20 PM
I like it. Nice screen, fast, perfect size for the hand, light. I have the 16 GB. Only thing it lacks is an SD Card slot to expand the memory. Hence why I bought the 16. Now you can get the 32 GB for what the 16 GB used to cost. Can't go wrong with it. IMHO
how does it handle heavy content website?

full load flash sites etc

i know that android is part of that issue.

KCFalcon59
11-01-2012, 02:58 PM
how does it handle heavy content website?

full load flash sites etc

i know that android is part of that issue.

Well, Jelly Bean doesn't support flash. I occasionally run into sites where it pissed me off because I couldn't view the video. The heavy content sites load fast enough. I don't notice a problem where I have to wait a while for a page to load. It'd be better if it supported flash until flash died and went away, but that won't happen. I am sure it's a big deal for some, not so big of a deal for others.

Games and such work great. App updates download and install fast.

WoodDraw
11-01-2012, 03:42 PM
is the Nexus 7 any good?

I love mine. Definitely would recommend it.

Mr. Laz
11-01-2012, 04:02 PM
Well, Jelly Bean doesn't support flash. I occasionally run into sites where it pissed me off because I couldn't view the video. The heavy content sites load fast enough. I don't notice a problem where I have to wait a while for a page to load. It'd be better if it supported flash until flash died and went away, but that won't happen. I am sure it's a big deal for some, not so big of a deal for others.

Games and such work great. App updates download and install fast.
you can install Dolphin HD and find flash for android out in the internet land.

it still runs flash

I have it installed on my Transformer Infinity with Jelly Bean


I thinking of getting a nexus 7 for someone for christmas. I just don't want to get one if it's a POS.

Guru
11-01-2012, 05:40 PM
Yep, you can find flash anywhere. Just google search it.

Braincase
11-01-2012, 05:42 PM
is it perfect, nope, but it isn't a pos either.

There re some pretty cool things about it.

Hella easier to cut and paste between apps, that's for damned sure.

WoodDraw
11-01-2012, 06:02 PM
I thinking of getting a nexus 7 for someone for christmas. I just don't want to get one if it's a POS.

If you have the Transformer Infinity, you should know what to expect...

It's not a POS at all.

DaveNull
11-01-2012, 06:51 PM
HC: When I use "you" or "your" below I'm not necessarily talking about you personally. I'm talking about IT Management and using your words because they're illustrative of what I'm hearing in many other places. I'm sure you're a gentleman, scholar and a pillar of your community desrving in no way to be the direct target of such vitriol from someone who has the audacity to think that he knows the tools that would help him do his job better than the mid level IT manager who makes decisions based on "webinars" and meetings with their Microsoft rep.

I just get sick of putting up with management that doesn't want to take on the challenge of delivering the next generation of technolgy to their users.

They love their consumer platforms and want to use them at work; thus the rise in bring your own device (BYOD ) initiatives.

Here you're giving a line that's coming from Corporate IT worldwide. It's led to this terrible buzzword of "consumerization" which diminishes and deflects from the core problem. Employees started to want to bring their own devices because the ones that were provided for them by the drones in IT managmenet suck.

If you're one of these managers that keeps talking about stuff like iOS and OS X in these terms, as Fish pointed out, you're going to be left behind. You can sit there and wring your hands about how hard it's going to be, but if you can't deliver a platform to people that equals or exceeds what they're used to using at home you're going to be out of a job.

Business people are also consumers.

You're exactly right. The BYOD movement is a sign that the product that you're providing to the consumers of your IT services is failing. It's time to start figuring out why IT is almost as unpopular in your company than legal or HR and fix the problem.

Business exists for profit

That's right. It's also important to understand that the people that work for the company don't generate revenue to support IT and don't work at your behest. You can cite that OS X hardware is more expensive, but when you factor in decreased headcount from the Help Desk, anti-virus licenses, third party patching tools then it may not be all that much cheeper. Oh but there's a problem with actually admitting that, right? If you put in systems that require fewer add ons and less support than your kingdom is being diminished. Well here's the thing..

The people running businesses are looking at their cost centers and see IT as being a huge chunk of dollars with high head counts that still can't get the executives' brand new Dell laptop to be as stable and quick as their home computer. Whether you've got your reasons that it's slow or not, someone else is setting the curve that your'e now being judged against.

If you're not generating revenue then you're on the chopping block. Make the users happy or start looking for another job.

This is where the Surface comes in. It is a business device, running the desktop OS that runs all of the applications businesses already run, can be integrated and administrered like their existing platforms with no additional cost, AND provides the awesome form factor of the iPad.

Let me tell you what that sounds like to someone who pushes technology for a living but doesn't live in IT Managment. "This works with our current setup. If I give this to people, I don't have to change anything about what my job looks like. Every one of my software reps will buy me so many more shots next year because I'll be buying more of their crap. I don't have to learn anything new, and if anything I'll be able to increase the help desk staff and therefore continue to protect my kingdom. All this while looking totally cutting edge by telling people we're giving them tablets, even though they asked for iPads. The Surface really is the best of both worlds."

Is that probably off base? Sure it is. But that's the perception you're creating when you get so excited about something that fundamentally is no different than the crap you've been pushing for years that people started to rebel against.

The cool thing about Surface is it's not a different OS from the desktop. Apple has OSX and iOS; they are distinct. Surface, the PC, laptop, and Phone all run W8. Consistent experience + integrated functionality + ability to use as both a business and consumer device; I think it's a great idea.

No it isn't. It's a shitty idea. If people wanted the same OS on their laptop as on a touch screen device then the touchscreen edition of Windows XP on touchscreen laptops would have sold. They didn't. It was a failure.

The tragic thing for Microsoft is that by trying to merge these, they've ended up taking a pretty great touch interface in Metro and jammed it onto the desktop. Now people won't want to upgrade their traditional computers because Metro is best suited for tablets but the classic desktop is best suited for desktops.

The only thing the Surface is good for is IT Management.

HC_Chief
11-01-2012, 08:58 PM
I read your "middle management" rants and agree, middle managers (typically) suck, but they are NOT the people making the decisions: executives are. Why is it the executives are foregoing Apple products for Windows? (Rhetorical question; we all know why: broader hardware base, much better price point, lower TCO, greater ROI, MUCH broader application support base).

I have Apple products (MacBook Pro, MacBook, iPhone, iPad), I have had PCs running Linux (great for playing around; tons of potential, excellent if you're running a startup), and I have Microsoft products. Apple was great...in comparison to Vista (total POS). Compared to W7 and W8, it is sllllloooowwww aaaaaasssss ffffffffaaaaaaaacccccckkkkkkk, and severely limited in functionality (unless you load W7 or W8 in Parallels/dual-boot/VMware).

The iPad is a great form factor, but it is ultimately a trendy high-tech toy. There are lots of cool little apps for diversion, but not a lot of practicality. It has a ton of potential, but may (Microsoft's bet is it will) eventually be eclipsed due to its limited acceptance in the corporate world.

As for "rebelling against Microsoft", it's the same old story since the antitrust proceedings due to Microsoft having the nerve to *gasp* include a browser with their OS. :D Haters are going to hate, nothing anyone can say to change that. Fact is no one has been able to make much of a dent in their dominance. Google has been a massive failure on that front; Apple has been successful with their smartphone (revolutionary), and their tablet....in the consumer space. They have made moderate inroads in business with each, but they are still a minority in terms of phone for business. The iPad, on the other hand, was really the only game in town...until now.

AustinChief
11-01-2012, 09:25 PM
The iPad, on the other hand, was really the only game in town...until now.

From a purely OS standpoint... Apple is behind the 8-ball now. Windows 8 has the runaway advantage in the corporate world(obviously) and Android is set to make a huge jump forward with Jelly Bean 4.2. Why do I say that? Because now you have both competitors to Apple with support for multiple user profiles. That's a pretty huge step forward.


Oh, another great thing in Jelly Bean 4.2... native support for Miracast. For those who don't know what that is.. it's an open source, standards based alternative to Apple's AirPlay. It can support 1080p streaming to any Miracast certified device.. which are few and far between right now, but Samsung, Intel , etc have all just signed up and are pushing it hard.

NewChief
11-01-2012, 09:26 PM
From a purely OS standpoint... Apple is behind the 8-ball now. Windows 8 has the runaway advantage in the corporate world(obviously) and Android is set to make a huge jump forward with Jelly Bean 4.2. Why do I say that? Because now you have both competitors to Apple with support for multiple user profiles. That's a pretty huge step forward.


Oh, another great thing in Jelly Bean 4.2... native support for Miracast. For those who don't know what that is.. it's an open source, standards based alternative to Apple's AirPlay. It can support 1080p streaming to any Miracast certified device.. which are few and far between right now, but Samsung, Intel , etc have all just signed up and are pushing it hard.

The multiple user thing is HUGE for education use. As in, if iPad doesn't come out with their own in the next year or so, I can see way more classrooms moving away from iPad. Of course, I'm pretty confident that Apple will have implemented it within the next year or so.

AustinChief
11-01-2012, 09:31 PM
The multiple user thing is HUGE for education use. As in, if iPad doesn't come out with their own in the next year or so, I can see way more classrooms moving away from iPad. Of course, I'm pretty confident that Apple will have implemented it within the next year or so.

The way I see it, they have to implement it by late July of next year or they will see some serious blowback from education purchasers moving on to better and cheaper Android tablets.

AustinChief
11-01-2012, 09:38 PM
Something else people fail to consider...

Why would a consumer buy an iPad instead of a Nexus 10 (or similar) when they already have an Android phone? The answer is ... in most cases, they wouldn't.

Last quarter, Android topped 75% market share of all smartphones sold... Apple fell below 15%. That may be a serious problem for Apple's future.

On a related note... Windows 8 will probably work in the exact opposite direction. The Windows 8 tablets will make some headway (especially in the corporate world) and drive sales of Windows 8 phones.

HC_Chief
11-01-2012, 09:41 PM
Something else people fail to consider...

Why would a consumer buy an iPad instead of a Nexus 10 (or similar) when they already have an Android phone? The answer is ... in most cases, they wouldn't.

Last quarter, Android topped 75% market share of all smartphones sold... Apple fell below 15%. That may be a serious problem for Apple's future.

On a related note... Windows 8 will probably work in the exact opposite direction. The Windows 8 tablets will make some headway (especially in the corporate world) and drive sales of Windows 8 phones.

Ehh, maybe. The Nokia devices are solid, but the others are pretty Meh, IMO. HTC's new W8 phone w/ Beats Audio may be okay; need to check it out.

NewChief
11-01-2012, 09:42 PM
The way I see it, they have to implement it by late July of next year or they will see some serious blowback from education purchasers moving on to better and cheaper Android tablets.

I think you overestimate the adaptation timeframe for education (and many institutions). You're not talking about a massive switch. It's always going to be a slow paradigm shift. I'm not convinced that, from a detached evolutionary perspective, Apple won't end up in the tablet/phone market in the same place it's ended up in the PC market. I just don't see it happening in the NEAR (next couple of years) future, which is where I part with Apple haters and Droid enthusiasts.

HC_Chief
11-01-2012, 09:44 PM
I think you overestimate the adaptation timeframe for education (and many institutions). You're not talking about a massive switch. It's always going to be a slow paradigm shift. I'm not convinced that, from a detached evolutionary perspective, Apple won't end up in the tablet/phone market in the same place it's ended up in the PC market. I just don't see it happening in the NEAR (next couple of years) future, which is where I part with Apple haters and Droid enthusiasts.

apple is without Jobs...again. Last time that happened...

just sayin'. ;)

NewChief
11-01-2012, 09:46 PM
apple is without Jobs...again. Last time that happened...

just sayin'. ;)

No doubt, and they appear to be making even more missteps since his death.

AustinChief
11-01-2012, 09:50 PM
I'm not convinced that, from a detached evolutionary perspective, Apple won't end up in the tablet/phone market in the same place it's ended up in the PC market. I just don't see it happening in the NEAR (next couple of years) future, which is where I part with Apple haters and Droid enthusiasts.

that's exactly what I have been saying..

And just to be clear... Apple is already there NOW with phones. Their natural market share is in the 10-17% range. That is where they are with Macs and iPhones and iPads are quickly approaching that. (depends on how you count tablets.. if you ignore white label or not.. even if you leave off the shadow market, Apple has now slipped below 50% from 70% a year ago .. no way they aren't below 30% next year)

htismaqe
11-01-2012, 09:56 PM
I read your "middle management" rants and agree, middle managers (typically) suck, but they are NOT the people making the decisions: executives are. Why is it the executives are foregoing Apple products for Windows? (Rhetorical question; we all know why: broader hardware base, much better price point, lower TCO, greater ROI, MUCH broader application support.

I agree that execs are making the decisions.

I disagree with almost all of your reasons why.

The number 1 reason to choose Windows? I already have so much of an install base I CAN'T change even if I wanted to. Organizations, especially in this economy, don't want risk and change is risk.

The hardware base is broader and the hardware costs initially are lower. However, your assertions on TCO and ROI are debatable AT BEST.

The simple fact is that further Microsoft purchases leverage the existing install base and no exec ever got fired giving business to Microsoft.

htismaqe
11-01-2012, 10:01 PM
Let me tell you what that sounds like to someone who pushes technology for a living but doesn't live in IT Managment. "This works with our current setup. If I give this to people, I don't have to change anything about what my job looks like. Every one of my software reps will buy me so many more shots next year because I'll be buying more of their crap. I don't have to learn anything new, and if anything I'll be able to increase the help desk staff and therefore continue to protect my kingdom. All this while looking totally cutting edge by telling people we're giving them tablets, even though they asked for iPads. The Surface really is the best of both worlds."

Is that probably off base? Sure it is. But that's the perception you're creating when you get so excited about something that fundamentally is no different than the crap you've been pushing for years that people started to rebel against.

I work for a large consultant and my customer is top 5 financial institution.

I can say 100% without any doubt that your comment is NOT off base.

The above is absolutely spot-on.

HC_Chief
11-02-2012, 11:01 AM
However, your assertions on TCO and ROI are debatable AT BEST.

Check Alinean. The numbers tell the story.

Too often people mix their personal preferences into these discussions. Perception is NOT reality; it is perception. An objective, broad view of the landscape indicates that ROI is higher, and TCO is lower. The factors that you indicate as the reason are variables in the calcs, to be certain, but they are not the sole variable.

htismaqe
11-02-2012, 11:30 AM
Check Alinean. The numbers tell the story.

Too often people mix their personal preferences into these discussions. Perception is NOT reality; it is perception. An objective, broad view of the landscape indicates that ROI is higher, and TCO is lower. The factors that you indicate as the reason are variables in the calcs, to be certain, but they are not the sole variable.

Licensing alone often prevents Microsoft from having the best ROI or TCO.

To make a blanket statement that Microsoft's solution has the best ROI and/or TCO is dubious at best and at worst, outright false. You can't talk in such broad generalities.

There's also the fact that Microsoft has purposefully made 3rd-party solutions more expensive in the foundation (see Citrix).

KILLER_CLOWN
11-02-2012, 11:34 AM
I thin it just depends on an individuals preference and situation. For me it was the laptop. My kids now use my old laptops for games, etc.......I still like to use my desktop PC for any work or productivity work i do at home. I have a seperate den/office with a nice desk in my house so i like using the room. My iPad i use all around the house for any fun stuff like surfing and Netflix. I dont really play PC games anymore. Only console.

Shame...

htismaqe
11-02-2012, 11:35 AM
Shame...

So many of the really good games come out on all platforms. The only game I've played on PC recently that I couldn't get on console was Rome Total War.

And you have to admit, tuning a PC can sometimes be a real bitch.

KILLER_CLOWN
11-02-2012, 11:40 AM
So many of the really good games come out on all platforms. The only game I've played on PC recently that I couldn't get on console was Rome Total War.

And you have to admit, tuning a PC can sometimes be a real bitch.

Skyrim is so much better on PC, plus all those mods.... ;)

htismaqe
11-02-2012, 12:07 PM
Skyrim is so much better on PC, plus all those mods.... ;)

There's no way it could be "so much" much better on any platform. It's a 99/100 already on PS3. Slightly better graphics aren't a selling point at all.

And I will be lucky to finish the base game in less than a year. Mods have zero appeal.

KILLER_CLOWN
11-02-2012, 12:34 PM
There's no way it could be "so much" much better on any platform. It's a 99/100 already on PS3. Slightly better graphics aren't a selling point at all.

And I will be lucky to finish the base game in less than a year. Mods have zero appeal.

Zero? really? I guess different strokes for different folks but more choices is always better for me. I hate being pidgeonholed into playing a certain way and that is why i hate consoles.

htismaqe
11-02-2012, 12:55 PM
Zero? really? I guess different strokes for different folks but more choices is always better for me. I hate being pidgeonholed into playing a certain way and that is why i hate consoles.

So do you even play the original game no mods? Or do you read up and dive right in to what you think the best mods are?

The only mods I've ever played religiously were for total conversions for Total War and Starfleet Command and then only because they changed the time periods (and thus the unit sets) for the game.

I can't imagine playing any mod for Skyrim that would be that much better than the original.

KILLER_CLOWN
11-02-2012, 12:58 PM
So do you even play the original game no mods? Or do you read up and dive right in to what you think the best mods are?

The only mods I've ever played religiously were for total conversions for Total War and Starfleet Command and then only because they changed the time periods (and thus the unit sets) for the game.

I can't imagine playing any mod for Skyrim that would be that much better than the original.

I usually play the game in it's original state first. There are quite a few Mods that add to the gaming experience.

This list is updated quite a bit and there are many different variants all over the net but some of the mods ARE better than vanilla. I will add that I LOVE the flying airship, it's breathtaking. Quite a few mods end up as full games, like Killing floor.

http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/10/28/the-25-best-skyrim-mods-2/

Here is a link to the premier modding site(other than the steam workshop)

http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/5eUfyLY9phs?feature=player_embedded" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

htismaqe
11-02-2012, 01:15 PM
I usually play the game in it's original state first. There are quite a few Mods that add to the gaming experience.

This list is updated quite a bit and there are many different variants all over the net but some of the mods ARE better than vanilla. I will add that I LOVE the flying airship, it's breathtaking. Quite a few mods end up as full games, like Killing floor.

http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/10/28/the-25-best-skyrim-mods-2/

Here is a link to the premier modding site(other than the steam workshop)

http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/5eUfyLY9phs?feature=player_embedded" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Yeah, that's just something I don't have time for. I don't have the gaming time or the wherewithal. I like sitting down, turning on a controller, and spending a couple hours playing a game.

I just don't have the cycles for PC gaming anymore.

KILLER_CLOWN
11-02-2012, 01:34 PM
Yeah, that's just something I don't have time for. I don't have the gaming time or the wherewithal. I like sitting down, turning on a controller, and spending a couple hours playing a game.

I just don't have the cycles for PC gaming anymore.

I understand but you could literally play for 4 or 5 years in just Skyrim with all the awesome mods. The game is simply breathtaking and just fun to walk around in without even doing quests.

htismaqe
11-02-2012, 01:50 PM
I understand but you could literally play for 4 or 5 years in just Skyrim with all the awesome mods. The game is simply breathtaking and just fun to walk around in without even doing quests.

I play individual games for a long time but even I can't play a game for THAT long. I'd get bored with the premise after a bit. I tend to wear out individual games and I never spend time on more than 1 game at a time, but I also don't usually play the same genre back-to-back. Once I finish Skyrim, I'll probably go to NCAA 2013. I played Fable 2 for months, then Fight Night Champion, then Amalur.

Let's put it this way - I've played Fable 2, Amalur, and similar games for hundreds of hours on XBox and have NEVER downloaded DLC for those games. When I'm done, I'm done.

KILLER_CLOWN
11-02-2012, 03:18 PM
I play individual games for a long time but even I can't play a game for THAT long. I'd get bored with the premise after a bit. I tend to wear out individual games and I never spend time on more than 1 game at a time, but I also don't usually play the same genre back-to-back. Once I finish Skyrim, I'll probably go to NCAA 2013. I played Fable 2 for months, then Fight Night Champion, then Amalur.

Let's put it this way - I've played Fable 2, Amalur, and similar games for hundreds of hours on XBox and have NEVER downloaded DLC for those games. When I'm done, I'm done.

Fair enough.

Braincase
11-03-2012, 12:18 PM
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/RyWSEwKPo8s" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Sure-Oz
11-03-2012, 02:33 PM
Want an Ipad mini cause i dont have an ipad but have android phone. Seems still too pricy $315 for 16gb. be nice if the price was a bit lower.

HC_Chief
11-03-2012, 06:45 PM
This sums up Apple perfectly: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyWSEwKPo8s :D

AustinChief
11-03-2012, 11:30 PM
Ok, now THIS is what I was talking about!!

http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-33198_7-57544756-286/b-n-drops-prices-on-nook-tablet-and-nook-color/

Nook Color (2 year old 7" tablet) is now selling for $139 - slap Jelly Bean on it and that's not a bad deal.

They also have the 1 year old Nook Tablet with 1 gb ram selling for $179 (not such a great deal when you can get the Nexus 7 or Nook HD for only $20 more)

We aren't there yet but we are quickly approaching the price point where tablets will really start to fly off the shelves.

Bewbies
11-03-2012, 11:56 PM
Ok, now THIS is what I was talking about!!

http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-33198_7-57544756-286/b-n-drops-prices-on-nook-tablet-and-nook-color/

Nook Color (2 year old 7" tablet) is now selling for $139 - slap Jelly Bean on it and that's not a bad deal.

They also have the 1 year old Nook Tablet with 1 gb ram selling for $179 (not such a great deal when you can get the Nexus 7 or Nook HD for only $20 more)

We aren't there yet but we are quickly approaching the price point where tablets will really start to fly off the shelves.

Tablets aren't flying of the shelves now? How many tens of millions more need to sell before they reach that classification?

memyselfI
11-04-2012, 07:39 AM
Want an Ipad mini cause i dont have an ipad but have android phone. Seems still too pricy $315 for 16gb. be nice if the price was a bit lower.

I bought a 10" 32gb Asus Transformer tf300 for $399 in April. I love it. Comes with a microSD slot. It's still sells for around $350-370 brand new but will probably drop a bit more closer to Conspicuous Consumption Day.

When I went to purchase my tablet I went to pick up the Ipad 2 that had just dropped in price. I compared the two and went with Android because the hardware specs were so much better.

I don't have a lot of money so I tend to buy for value more than name or popularity.

DaveNull
11-04-2012, 08:32 AM
I don't get buying devices like this primarily on hardware specs. For me it's much more about the software.

I did play with a 10.1 note the other night...pretty cool stuff if you're into the Google/Android ecosystem.

Crush
11-04-2012, 08:36 AM
The Samsung Galaxy Note 10.1 kicks so much ass. The s-pen is a godsend for people who want affordable digital ink.

memyselfI
11-04-2012, 09:32 AM
I don't get buying devices like this primarily on hardware specs. For me it's much more about the software.

I did play with a 10.1 note the other night...pretty cool stuff if you're into the Google/Android ecosystem.

Well it wasn't simply the hardware specs.The SD card slot, the 16gb of additional storage which when adding a $25 32gb micro SD card gave me a total of 64 GB of storage for around $430. The 64gb Ipad 2 was running around $700 IIRC. Plus the update and hack ability of Android made it a much better deal. I've been using Android since the first week the TMO G1 came out.

KILLER_CLOWN
11-04-2012, 10:03 AM
I bought a decent Android tablet last year and dabbled with it but It honestly didn't get much use. I play with my Vita more than the tablet, it just didn't appeal much to me.

DaFace
11-04-2012, 10:42 AM
I don't get buying devices like this primarily on hardware specs. For me it's much more about the software.

I did play with a 10.1 note the other night...pretty cool stuff if you're into the Google/Android ecosystem.

I guess I don't understand that. You can always change the software, but the hardware is pretty much set in stone.

KILLER_CLOWN
11-04-2012, 11:18 AM
I guess I don't understand that. You can always change the software, but the hardware is pretty much set in stone.

I don't either, in a proprietary piece of equipment you want the most powerful hardware you can get. You can always change the software but in order to improve the hardware you have to replace the entire unit.

DaveNull
11-04-2012, 12:31 PM
That's not what I mean. I can see hardware coming into play when comparing within a category, but if you're comparing across platforms it makes less sense.

It will probably become harder to compare ARM tablets over time this way since it appears that Apple is starting to do more custom work than many of the others.

DaFace
11-04-2012, 12:37 PM
That's not what I mean. I can see hardware coming into play when comparing within a category, but if you're comparing across platforms it makes less sense.

It will probably become harder to compare ARM tablets over time this way since it appears that Apple is starting to do more custom work than many of the others.

Ah. Well, yes. Aside from storage, comparing specs across platforms is a bit suspect since the different OS's perform differently. I agree with you there.

WoodDraw
11-04-2012, 04:06 PM
I guess I don't understand that. You can always change the software, but the hardware is pretty much set in stone.

On a tablet? Not really. Most have plenty of proprietary issues that make changing software quite hard. Depends on the manufacturer quite a bit as well.

DaFace
11-04-2012, 04:11 PM
On a tablet? Not really. Most have plenty of proprietary issues that make changing software quite hard. Depends on the manufacturer quite a bit as well.

I have no fewer than 25 ROMs to choose from for my tablet that would work just fine. Guess it depends on what you consider to be "quite hard."

Mr. Laz
11-09-2012, 03:49 PM
ASUS, Google offer monetary compenstation for Nexus 7 tablets bought before price drop

By Joe Pollicino (http://www.engadget.com/editor/joe-pollicino) http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.engadget.com/media/writer_rss.gif (http://www.engadget.com/editor/joe-pollicino/rss.xml) posted Nov 9th 2012 4:47PM

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2012/11/18-pm.jpeg (http://www.engadget.com/2012/11/09/asus-google-nexus-7-price-drop-compensation/)
Bought yourself a shiny new Nexus 7 (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CDAQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.engadget.com%2F2012%2F06%2F28%2Fnexus-7-review%2F&ei=QVSdULy1JIvO0QHKnYC4CA&usg=AFQjCNEBXFyzzfZUzerGWt2RhUBSV8RHig) before just before the priced dropped (http://www.engadget.com/2012/10/29/nexus-7s-new-pricing-is-official-16gb-for-199-32gb-for-249/) on October 29th and feel a bit slighted? ASUS (http://www.engadget.com/tag/ASUS/) and Google want to turn your frown upside down, each offering their own compensation. Folks in Europe who purchased any variant of the tablet from ASUS prior to October 30th are eligible to a redeem a 25-pound or 30-euro coupon for its online shop. Apparently, the deal has been in place since October 30th, and you'll have until the 30th of this month to submit your proof of purchase (from sanctioned dealers, naturally) and apply. Sure, it may not be as nice as a Google Play credit (http://www.engadget.com/2012/09/28/nexus-7-google-play-credit-promo-ending/) for apps or cash in-pocket, but at least ASUS is showing it can share at least some love for early adopters. Europeans should move their cursors over to the ASUS source link below for all the details.
Tracking back to Google, Droid-Life notes that Google's price protection policy might have you covered for some cash-back, as well. If you purchased the 16GB model from Google Play between the 14th and the 29th of October, you have until about the 13th of this month to get a refund for the price difference (15 days from the initial price drop). As always, check out the Google link below for more details.

WoodDraw
11-09-2012, 03:56 PM
I have no fewer than 25 ROMs to choose from for my tablet that would work just fine. Guess it depends on what you consider to be "quite hard."

Fair enough. I guess I don't really consider that changing the software. How many of those 25 ROMS are nothing more than minor modifications to the stock ROM or AOSP?

DaFace
11-09-2012, 04:02 PM
Fair enough. I guess I don't really consider that changing the software. How many of those 25 ROMS are nothing more than minor modifications to the stock ROM or AOSP?

Maybe I don't understand what you're getting at. What types of software changes are you referring to if you're not talking about different ROMs and apps?

Guru
11-10-2012, 03:40 AM
Ok, now THIS is what I was talking about!!

http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-33198_7-57544756-286/b-n-drops-prices-on-nook-tablet-and-nook-color/

Nook Color (2 year old 7" tablet) is now selling for $139 - slap Jelly Bean on it and that's not a bad deal.

They also have the 1 year old Nook Tablet with 1 gb ram selling for $179 (not such a great deal when you can get the Nexus 7 or Nook HD for only $20 more)

We aren't there yet but we are quickly approaching the price point where tablets will really start to fly off the shelves.

Kind of curious about the Nook Color deal for my kids. Has anyone installed the ICS or JB ROM on this? HOw well does it perform?

The Rick
11-10-2012, 10:01 AM
Regardless of your platform of choice, I can honestly say that after using an iPad Mini for a week, I'm starting to think that the 7-8" size range is quite possibly the ideal size for tablets. At least for when it comes to content consumption.

DaveNull
11-10-2012, 11:33 AM
I stopped by the apple store this morning and checked it out. I would agree.

I think my next iPad may be this size but with a retina display. I've got a 27" iMac with 32GB of RAM and a fusion drive to take care of first though.

Pitt Gorilla
11-10-2012, 03:40 PM
Kind of curious about the Nook Color deal for my kids. Has anyone installed the ICS or JB ROM on this? HOw well does it perform?A buddy and I stopped at B&N last night to look at Nooks for his dad. We were looking at their newest models, and they were just odd. The touch interface did not perform well. You could try swiping or tapping and many times the device did not act accordingly. It could be that changing the OS would help, but it was bizarre.

Guru
11-10-2012, 03:56 PM
A buddy and I stopped at B&N last night to look at Nooks for his dad. We were looking at their newest models, and they were just odd. The touch interface did not perform well. You could try swiping or tapping and many times the device did not act accordingly. It could be that changing the OS would help, but it was bizarre.

I'm not referring to the new ones. Just the Nook Color that is being clearanced. This is just for a kid.

Pitt Gorilla
11-10-2012, 03:59 PM
I'm not referring to the new ones. Just the Nook Color that is being clearanced. This is just for a kid.Yeah, that's why I noted it was the new one. I just happened to have that experience last night and thought I would note it.

Mr. Laz
11-30-2012, 04:44 PM
<header id="article-header" class="photo instapaper_ignore " style="display: block; border-bottom-style: none; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; width: 321.20001220703125px; color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: 27.493331909179688px; orphans: 2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); background-position: 100% 100%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat;">Surface Pro's $899 Price Tag Aimed At Businesses, Not You
Mark Hachman (http://readwrite.com/author/markhachman#_tid=article-header-primary-meta-author&_tact=click+%3A+A&_tval=1&_tlbl=Position%3A+1) yesterdayhttp://readwrite.com/files/styles/800_450sc/public/fields/rsz_1panay_holding_surface_1.png
</header><section id="article-content" class="instapaper_body" style="display: block; margin-bottom: 0px; zoom: 1; color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: 27.493331909179688px; orphans: 2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"> Microsoft has priced its Surface Pro Windows 8 tablet, due in January, at about the same level as an ultrabook - only without that pesky keyboard.

In a blog post (http://blogs.technet.com/b/microsoft_blog/archive/2012/11/29/next-up-for-the-surface-family-surface-with-windows-8-pro-pricing.aspx), Microsoft Surface chief Panos Panay revealed the price: $899 for a Surface Pro with Windows 8 and 64GB of flash storage, and $999 for the 128GB version. That's consistent with what Microsoft indicated at the Surface launch this past summer: that the Surface RT would be priced on par with rival tablets (http://readwrite.com/2012/10/16/microsoft-surface-rt-tablet-priced-to-compete-with-ipad-not-android), and that the Surface Pro, which includes an Intel Core processor like the ones used by the majority of PCs and uses a standard version of the Windows 8 operating system, would be priced comparably with an ultrabook.
There's a minor gotcha, though: While each Surface Pro version will include the new Surface Pen stylus, they won't include either a Touch Cover or Type Cover, meaning that users will have to shell out an additional $119 for the Touch Cover or $129 for the Type Cover with the more fully-formed keyboard. Users can also buy (or may already own) a third-party Bluetooth keyboard.

For reference, the Microsoft Surface RT (http://readwrite.com/2012/10/30/microsoft-surface-review-the-best-something)with 32GB of storage without a cover was priced at $499, while adding a Touch Cover bumped it to $599. The 64GB version of the Windows RT Surface, with a black Touch Cover, is $699. That was slightly less the Apple iPad with the Retina Display, which costs $499 for a 16GB version, and $599 for a 32GB model. Both cost more than a number of Android tablets, however.

Surface Pro Is A Keyboard-Less Ultrabook

But when you think about the Surface Pro, you need to think about ultrabooks as much as tablets. From a specifications perspective, the Surface Pro compares well to a notebook: It has a Intel Core i5 processor, which gives a graphics boost to the Surface Pro's 10.6-inch, 16:9 ClearType touchscreen running at 1920 x 1080 resolution. It also includes a Mini DisplayPort to drive an external display up to 2560 x 1440 resolution, plus Bluetooth and a full-size USB 3.0 port.
Oddly enough, the Swedish site Webhallen took a lot of heat earlier this year forpublishing what it thought would be the expected price of the Surface Pro (http://readwrite.com/2012/07/27/why-microsoft-can-get-away-with-overcharging-for-the-surface-tablet): just over $800, with other models priced significantly higher. And you know - it turns out they were right on the money.
"It’s clear with the Surface Pro pricing Microsoft is targeting notebooks, not tablets," Patrick Moorhead, principal analyst with Moor Insights, said in an email to ReadWrite. "Very few people will pay $899 for a tablet but they will for a notebook. The Surface Pro with the Type Cover makes a very nice compact and light solution."

"I’ve given up on having Surface RT compete with an iPad," Moorhead added. "To do that, it would need to be priced at $699. But it isn’t. Therefore, I am looking at it through the new lens of a notebook. Microsoft won’t sell nearly as many at $899 as they would at $699, and overall, they won’t sell many."

That means that our earlier analysis is still in play. Sarah Rotman Epps, a consumer and mobile analyst for Forrester Research, said in July that Microsoft could be worried about competing with its manufacturing partners like Asus or Dell. One way to avoid that problem, she said, would be to price the Surface high enough to avoid direct competition.
“Keeping the price point of the Surface high limits the threat to Microsoft’s OEM [original equipment manufacturing] partners,” Rotman Epps said. “At a $1,000 price point, this won’t be a mass market product, but it will still have the desired effect of exciting consumers and inspiring OEMs to do more with hardware design for Windows 8.”

The Case For The Surface Pro

Earlier this year, I made the case for the Surface Pro as the ultimate business tablet (http://readwrite.com/2012/06/20/why-microsofts-surface-pro-will-be-the-first-real-business-tablet). The Surface Pro has little competition in that arena. The iPad is being used in some corporate environments, but what pressure both might have felt from specifically business-oriented products like the Cisco Cius and RIM PlayBook have largely evaporated.

While I didn't know the price at the time, that's largely immaterial: Once you start aligning a product with corporate budgets, products begin to be measured less on price than on feature sets, especially as the value of the employee using it increases. The included digitizer pen will also satisfy content creators and other creative types; the tablet includes a "Palm Block" technology that will allow users to rest their hands on the tablet.

The most important aspect of the Surface Pro is its ability to run Windows; my recenttrip to Dubai to explore Windows 8 applications (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CDEQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Freadwrite.com%2F2012%2F11%2F19%2Fmicrosoft-aims-dubai-launch-of-windows-8-at-businesses-emirates-goes-first&ei=BLO3UI-pHsWIiwLtjoGwCQ&usg=AFQjCNH257FTJkqDt4B65GsMREwDtnrkPw) revealed that yes, companies are developing apps for Windows 8, and some are using Windows RT. But it simply costs less to develop an app for one Windows platform, especially where legacy, Windows 7-era apps are involved.

The question, of course, is whether or not Microsoft truly wants to sell its own tablets, clear out space for its hardware partners or essentialy offer another premioum service in the vein of the Microsoft Signature (http://signature.microsoft.com/) experience, where the company will sell you a notebook free of the third-party bloatware that hardware partners often load.

NPD released some unsettling news on Thursday: Third-party Windows 8 tablets are virtually non-existent at 1% of all retail sales from mid-October to mid-November, and Windows device sales are down 21% overall from a year ago (see Is Windows 8 Winning? Microsoft Say Yes; Data Say No (http://readwrite.com/2012/11/29/is-windows-8-winning-microsoft-says-yes-data-say-no)). A super-expensive Surface Pro won't help those numbers. But if companies are looking for a Windows 8 tablet for professional use, the Surface Pro will still likely be their number one choice.
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DaveNull
12-16-2012, 11:01 AM
I made the trek to the Microsoft store yesterday and spent some time with the Surface. Random thoughts and observations below.

- More employees at the Microsoft store than shoppers and I didn't see anyone walk out of the store with something they purchased.
- I had no less than four people attack me when I came in asking if I needed help.
- While I messed around with the low-end keyboard cover I listened to an employee talk to some potential buyers. They were asked at one point how someone would get stuff onto the surface and the guy said "you put everything into your Skydrive account" as if they should know what that was. When they were getting ready to leave he aggressively said "are you considering an iPad?" They responded that they were and he says "The thing about the Surface is that you're not limited by anything. The iPad is for entertainment only so if you want to do anything like work or writing then you should get a Surface."

They looked at him with a very puzzled look and walked out.

- I asked to see the other keyboard and the same guy directed me to a station with one and told me to open Word. That's a pet peeve of mine since I hate Word with the power of a thousand suns.

- The Surface doesn't come with FDE (full disc encryption) enabled by default. That's a big oversight if you ask me for a device like this.

- At setup, the first user is an administrator.

- The RT version doesn't have most of the other Windows 8 Intel stuff removed. Lots of references in the registry to Intel drivers and such.

- I asked about putting it into disc mode, as I'm interested in what it would take to pull an image of one. The tech said he didn't know and after I told him why I was interested he told me that the RT tablets have been a real problem for them. Since x86 code won't execute, none of their internal support tools work. That means that if someone comes in with a problem tablet, they just swap it out.

It's easy to poke fun at that, only to have any number of folks on here point out that this is what happens with a borked iPad. The difference, though, is that this is much more local storage centric. I'm sure that one of the coached selling points is that Windows should make it more serviceable, when at this point it's really not.

- The low end keyboard isn't all that great. I'd put it on par with typing on the screen.

- The high end keyboard was nicer, but not nearly as good of an experience as using my Apple Bluetooth keyboard with my iPad.

- To get a feel for it, I wrote out a couple simple HTML pages the old fashioned way. In Notepad. I bring this up since tons power users (not muggles who think Word is the only way to type a document) would want a real editor like Sublime, UltraEdit or Notepad++. Of course none of that should be expected to work on the RT version...and those developers would have to develop Metro versions. That seems like something outside the scope of what the developers I just listed would want to do. If anyone would, it would be Sublime because it's all new code and cross platform but the Metro UI restrictions would make it tough for them to do so efficiently.

- If you're using it as a laptop replacement and plan on using the touch cover a lot, I hope you're the right height. The angle at which the Surface sits with the kickstand obviously is not adjustable from what I could see.

- Since I was Christmas shopping I didn't have my notes on the Registry changes in Win8 with me so I can't speak to the new artifacts that have been created in there for the Metro style apps.

Overall I think it's a neat little piece of hardware, but it still falls into a gap without a market.

DaveNull
12-16-2012, 11:04 AM
And in regards to the Surface Pro, by the way, that would cost as much as an 11" MacBook Air. The Verge seems to think that (http://www.theverge.com/2012/2/10/2787484/macbook-air-with-windows-7-review-the-ultrabook-to-rule-them-all) it's the best ultrabook to use if you're running Windows.

AustinChief
12-16-2012, 09:09 PM
Overall I think it's a neat little piece of hardware, but it still falls into a gap without a market.

Yeah, RT doesn't appeal to me in any way... for MS in the tablet space it's all about Pro.. which is looking more and more to be priced too high for most consumers and aimed solely at corporate customers.

AustinChief
12-16-2012, 09:10 PM
This doesn't really fit in this thread but it's not worth it's own thread...

Ray Kurzweil has just been hired by Google! Pretty exciting stuff.

WoodDraw
12-17-2012, 01:54 AM
Yeah, RT doesn't appeal to me in any way... for MS in the tablet space it's all about Pro.. which is looking more and more to be priced too high for most consumers and aimed solely at corporate customers.

Microsoft has done everything wrong that they could do. I bet within the next 5-10 years xbox will become their most valuable asset. Look at all the money they're throwing at Google in advertising and anti-trust. They know they're fucked.

htismaqe
12-17-2012, 08:39 AM
Yeah, RT doesn't appeal to me in any way... for MS in the tablet space it's all about Pro.. which is looking more and more to be priced too high for most consumers and aimed solely at corporate customers.

It does appear that they're targeting the corporate space.

However, they're so late to the game. There's already a large Apple installed base.

AustinChief
12-21-2012, 06:52 PM
Well the rumors are heating up about the mythical $99 tablet(that is not a piece of crap)! I honestly think we'll see both of these released in the next quarter as $150 tablets.. which is still a fantastic price point. Expect to see announcements at CES in 2 weeks.

"$99" ASUS
http://www.gottabemobile.com/2012/12/21/rumored-99-asus-tablet-images-leak/

"$99" Acer
http://www.tgdaily.com/mobility-features/68233-report-acer-prepping-a-99-android-tablet

The funny part is that both sets of leaked specs are being reviews as "lower end" or "value" not cutting edge like the Nexus line currently is... of course if you look at them and compare them with the iPad mini.. they are on the same level as that overpriced piece of crap.

Mr. Laz
12-21-2012, 07:36 PM
Android seems to be getting more and more buggy and annoying with every update.

Jelly Bean didn't do squat as far as i can tell.


i still can even have full internet browsing

AustinChief
12-21-2012, 07:48 PM
Android seems to be getting more and more buggy and annoying with every update.

Jelly Bean didn't do squat as far as i can tell.


i still can even have full internet browsing

Really? what device(s)? I have had the opposite results, especially with Internet.

Also, JellyBean 4.2 is the update that matters (for tablets) .. it's the one that let's you set different user profiles, which is badass and honestly is the single best feature any tablet can have at the moment. Every new tablet coming out will soon have this feature except Apple...

Pitt Gorilla
12-22-2012, 09:55 PM
Well the rumors are heating up about the mythical $99 tablet(that is not a piece of crap)! I honestly think we'll see both of these released in the next quarter as $150 tablets.. which is still a fantastic price point. Expect to see announcements at CES in 2 weeks.

"$99" ASUS
http://www.gottabemobile.com/2012/12/21/rumored-99-asus-tablet-images-leak/

"$99" Acer
http://www.tgdaily.com/mobility-features/68233-report-acer-prepping-a-99-android-tablet

The funny part is that both sets of leaked specs are being reviews as "lower end" or "value" not cutting edge like the Nexus line currently is... of course if you look at them and compare them with the iPad mini.. they are on the same level as that overpriced piece of crap.The mini is a piece of crap?

AustinChief
12-22-2012, 10:15 PM
The mini is a piece of crap?

Well not really, it's a middle of the road tablet specs-wise(maybe lower because of the shitty screen) but it is CRAZY overpriced.

I also think the 4:3 aspect ratio is stupid but that's a preference thing so I won't judge it on that.

Mr. Laz
12-23-2012, 08:52 AM
Really? what device(s)? I have had the opposite results, especially with Internet.

Also, JellyBean 4.2 is the update that matters (for tablets) .. it's the one that let's you set different user profiles, which is badass and honestly is the single best feature any tablet can have at the moment. Every new tablet coming out will soon have this feature except Apple...
Transformer Infinity or should i call it Crash Infinity


'unfortunately the Asus Task Manager has stopped working ... '

DaveNull
12-23-2012, 09:25 AM
I'll bet the specs on that Transformer Infinity are awesome though. Keep that in mind when it crashes, since that's one of the reasons it's better than any iOS device.

Mr. Laz
12-23-2012, 11:02 AM
I'll bet the specs on that Transformer Infinity are awesome though. Keep that in mind when it crashes, since that's one of the reasons it's better than any iOS device.
shut up, fanboi

underEJ
02-21-2013, 08:32 PM
I have a Surface Pro. Got it the first day released, but wanted to spend some time with it before commenting. Basically, the intent behind it is a miracle, and the product is a solid delivery. The machine is great, fast, everything I wanted, and unfortunately a bit heavy. The Windows 8 experience is actually kind of cool. The metro view is responsive and easy to configure, and the switch to and from desktop is easy. The biggest issue I'd see for most people is the battery power. With power saving measures, I can get 6 hours out of it. If I wanted to play games, I would be very frustrated with the 3-4 hours from the couple of free games I tried (more correctly, I let a kid try- I don't really play games.)

The pen is fantastic, I use it for way more than drawing. That is probably the most surprising bonus, and I really hope I don't lose the pen, the connector is lame when the machine is in my bag, never holds it. Storage was never an issue for me as I regularly move data to and from devices and my 2TB drive so I was prepared for the transient nature of my data now. The display is good, but expect the next version will be even better. Still, I work on high res images and it is capable, and for my truly color accurate needs, it drives my HP monitor quite nicely.

The sum total is that I really love it. I was clinging to a 6 yr old vaio umpc, and an 8 yr old G5 in my home office waiting for something that was a full computer in a flexible tablet form. It is almost that, and for the few disappointments (weight and battery,) there is an equal or better benefit that I hadn't considered a must have, but now can't live without (the pen and the type keyboard.)

I am definitely an early adopter of stuff, so I have a bit more bandwidth for beta. This is way better than beta, but I think a few modifications could make the next version a huge hit.