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Micjones
10-22-2012, 10:08 AM
Iíd like to start this piece by making two statements. First, I believe Scott Pioli deserves to be fired. Second, I donít believe Scott Pioli will be fired this season. Without going into a big debate about why I believe these two things, Iíll just say this. Pioli should be fired because the overall product he has put on the field four years into his tenure as GM of the Kansas City Chiefs is not good enough. However, I think because of his relationship with Clark Hunt and how much money he saved Clark over the past 4 years, he will be given a chance to finish out his contract and will go into the 2013 season as the Chiefs GM once again. Iím not happy about this, but if I had to guess, thatís my prediction. If Iím wrong, and Pioli is fired before the season is over, I will be a\one happy fan/blogger.

But that is not what I want to debate today.

IF I am correct that Pioli will be back for another season as the KC general manager, how worried should Chiefs fans be about Pioli calling the shots this offseason? The absolute #1 objective for this offseason is to find a franchise QB, so what should KC fans think about Pioli being the guy to make that decision?

Obviously, since 99% of us want the guy run out of town, the answer is probably that we want Pioli to have no part of that decision. I agree, I do. However, letís set aside the Pioli torches and pitchforks and the ďevery decision that Pioli has ever made SUCKS!!Ē mentality and see if when it comes to drafting QBs, Pioli has earned that reputation?

Now, again let me say that Iím not trying to be a Pioli apologist. The Chiefs QB situation is indefensible. I think itís impossible to argue that Pioli has done enough at that position during his time in KC. Would it have helped if he had brought in some better QBs via free agency? Sure, but I donít think thatís what most of us that want Pioli gone are really wanting. We donít want another FA stop gap, we want the Chiefs to draft and develop their own franchise QB. So Iím not going to waste any time looking at what free agents Pioli could have brought in to challenge Matt Cassel. I will focus on the draft.

During the four seasons that Pioli has been drafting for the Kansas City Chiefs, 14 current starting QBs have been selected in the draft. Thatís about 44% of teams in the NFL that have found a starting QB via the draft since Pioli came to KC. When you hear that number by itself, it seems ridiculous that Pioli couldnít have selected one of those players or the Chiefs. However, in his interview with sports radio 810 last week Pioli implied that the Chiefs havenít been in great position to draft a first round QB. Does he have a point? It sure seems like the Chiefs have had enough early 1st round picks to make it happen. However, when I went back and looked, 9 of those 14 current starting QBs that have been selected since Pioli came to KC were taken before KC had their first pick. Those players are:

2009: Matthew Stafford
2010: Sam Bradford
2011: Cam Newton, Jake Locker, Blaine Gabbert, Christian Ponder
2012: Andrew Luck, Robert Griffin III, Ryan Tannehill

Now, I think itís reasonable to take Stafford, Bradford, Newton, Luck, and RG3 off the table and say that KC had little to no shot at landing any of those QBs regardless of what Pioli may have wanted. The only one of those that would have even been up for discussion was the RG3 pick and with Washington forking over three #1 picks and a 2nd to move up just a couple spots, its hard to imagine what KC would have had to give up to beat them out while moving up 9 spots. So the question is, should Pioli have moved up to take Locker, Gabbert, Ponder, or Tannehill?

Looking at the situation in 2011, KC was coming off a 10-6 division championship where Cassel made the Pro Bowl with 27 TDs and only 7 INTs. Yes, he was horrible against the Ravens in the playoffs and many fans had their doubts about him long term, but with their other holes was anyone clamoring for Pioli to move up and take Locker, Gabbert, or Ponder? If so, I donít remember that. In hindsight, would KC have been better off if they had? Sure, but I donít know that Pioli should be ripped for not moving up to take one of those guys considering where they were at, what they would have had to give up, and what kind of season the team and Matt Cassel were coming off. So that leaves us with Ryan Tannehill. The overwhelming majority of KC fans seemed nervous about the Chiefs taking Tannehill at #11 if he was still there. Tannehill was a prospect that scouts said had NFL ďtoolsĒ but didnít win a lot of games or put up huge numbers while at Texas A&M. The Chiefs did have Tannehill in for a private workout, so Pioli did at least look into it. Tannehill has looked like a good pick thus far, so it appears that the Chiefs may have been well served to move up and get him. Maybe they looked into it, maybe not. Who knows what the Dolphins (or one of the teams in front of them) would have been asking for. I think there is more room to criticize Pioli on this one then the 2011 draft, but if not trading multiple picks to move up for Ryan Tannehill is Pioliís biggest mistake in terms of moving UP for a QB, I donít know if that is all that bad.

So now letís look at the QBs that KC could have drafted since Pioli took over as GM. Here is a list of Pioli picks over the past four years and the QBs that they could have had with those picks in the first three rounds. The QBs in BOLD are current NFL starters.

2009:
#3 Ė Tyson Jackson Ė Mark Sanchez (#5), Josh Freeman (#17)
#34 Ė (Traded for Cassel) Ė Pat White (#44)
#67 Ė Alex Magee Ė Stephen McGee (#101)

2010:
#5 Ė Eric Berry Ė Tim Tebow (#25)
#36 Ė Dexter McCluster Ė Jimmy Clausen (#48)
#68 Ė Jon Asamoah Ė Colt McCoy (#85)

2011:
#21/26 Ė Jonathon Baldwin Ė Andy Dalton (#35), Colin Kaepernick (#36)
#70 Ė Justin Houston Ė Ryan Mallet (#74)

2012:
#11 Ė Dontari Poe Ė Brandon Weeden (#22)
#44 Ė Jeff Allen Ė Brock Osweiler (#57)
#74 Ė Donald Stephenson Ė Russell Wilson (#75), Nick Foles (#88), Kirk Cousins (#102)

So letís look at these one year at a time. In Pioliís first year in KC he traded our 2nd round pick for Matt Cassel (and Mike Vrabel) who was coming off a pretty solid season filling in for Tom Brady. In hindsight, would Josh Freeman have been a better pick than Tyson Jackson? Yes, but Freeman was seen as a bit of a risk at #17 that season, let alone at #3. The only QB even considered in the top ten after Stafford was Sanchez and he has struggled as much as Cassel has. I donít think Pioli deserves a bad rap for not drafting our QB in his first year here. You can criticize him for signing Cassel to his long term deal, but I think the draft (QB wise) was justifiable.

Next up is the 2010 draft. Does anybody want Tim Tebow, Jimmy Clausen, or Colt McCoy to be the future of the QB position in KC? I donít, so I donít think we can hold it against Pioli for not drafting our franchise QB in the 2010 draft.

The 2011 draft is interesting to debate. In hindsight, Andy Dalton looks like he would have been a MUCH better pick for the Chiefs than Jon Baldwin. I donít think anybody can argue that KC is better off for having Baldwin over Dalton. However, as I mentioned before, the Chiefs were coming off a division win and Cassel going to the Pro Bowl. Plus, the WR position was so bad that the Chiefs started Kevin Curtis who they had just signed off the street at WR in the playoffs. As much as we as fans can now look back at this draft pick and go ďWhat was he thinking?Ē itís hard to argue that Pioli was wrong to take a WR given the previous season. You can make an argument for Dalton, but much like the Tannehill discussion above, Iím not sure that it shows Pioli to be incompetent when it comes to drafting QBs because of this choice. Kaepernick and Mallet may prove to be great QBs, but its hard to judge that until they start multiple regular season games in the NFL. Iím pretty happy with the Justin Houston pick anyway.

That leaves us with the 2012 draft. This one (in my opinion) contains Pioliís biggest mistake. Iím not upset that the Chiefs didnít take Weeden. His age made taking him at #11 too big of a risk (in my opinion). Iím still not sold on him as a long term franchise QB. He may end up being a solid starting QB, but Iím not upset that Pioli didnít reach for him at #11 (or trade back, etc). Osweiler is still an unknown. Heís supposedly very raw and I donít think any scouts thought he was ready to walk in and start as a rookie. So again, Iím not upset that we didnít take him in the 2nd round. However, the 3rd round selection of backup tackle Donald Stephenson instead of either Russell Wilson, Nick Foles, or Kirk Cousins looks like a huge mistake by Pioli. Foles and Cousins are both unknowns both showed some real upside in training camp and preseason action. Russell Wilson has walked in as a 5í11″ rookie and already looks better than Matt Cassel in his 5th season as a NFL starter. Pioli could have picked Wilson in the 3rd, signed another OT in free agency, and been MUCH better off than the team is now. Plus, drafting Wilson in the 3rd would have allowed Cassel to still enter camp as the starter, there wouldnít have been expectations to play a 3rd rounder right out of the gate, plus if Wilson never materialized, no big deal, it was just a 3rd rounder. It was a no lose situation and Pioli blew it. I think if you look at his KC draft history, that was his biggest miss when it comes to drafting QBs.

So if Iím ranking Pioliís biggest QB draft mistakes in KC, I would go:

1. Not drafting a QB in the 3rd round this year instead of a backup OT.

2. Not trading up for Ryan Tannehill.

3. Not being able to admit that Casselís Pro Bowl was probably a fluke and drafting Andy Dalton instead of filling the hole at WR with Jon Baldwin.

Other than that, I donít know that you can complain about much else in terms of Pioli and drafting QBs. I suppose you could add passing on Brandon Weeden, not reaching for Josh Freeman, or not trading every draft pick for the rest of time for RG3, but that seems like reaching for the sake of bashing someone we all want gone. Are those three mistakes listed above enough to make you objectively say that Pioli could not draft a franchise QB? Itís not like he has let Pro Bowler after Pro Bowler slip through his fingers. On the other hand, if heís so good at evaluating talent, why didnít he recognize sooner that Cassel wasnít good enough? I think that is actually the biggest strike against him, as opposed to anything specific he has done or not done in the draft when it comes to QBs.

There will be no doubt about it this time around. The Chiefs will go into the 2013 offseason needing to find their new QB. Even if Scott Pioli is still around, he wonít be able to put it off anymore. There will be no sticking with Matt Cassel this time. So if the Chiefs stay on their current course and end up with a top 5 pick, Scott Pioli will be in uncharted waters. Heíll be in the market for a new QB while sitting in position to draft one of the elite prospects. If that happens does his track record leave you with no confidence for him to choose correctly? Has the overall failure of Pioli to build a consistent winner unfairly branded him as unable to find a good QB in the draft or is that reputation deserved?

For once, Iím not sure what I think.

I still think Pioli should be fired.

I still think Hunt will probably keep him around for at least one more year.

Iím just not sure what Pioli will do with a high draft pick and QB at the top of his wish list. As much as I donít want Pioli to be around to answer this question, if Iím honest with myself, I donít feel as bad about Pioliís track record of drafting QBs now that Iíve looked at the actual picks and the situation he was in at the time. Iím not excusing the state of this franchise overall, itís pitiful. Iím sure some will choose to label me a Pioli apologist just for suggesting this is up for discussion. Iím just trying to be objective. Iíd love to hear what you all think about this in the comments. Has Pioli proven he canít find a QB in the draft or has he simply not been in a good position to land one? Sound off Addicts!

As always, thanks for reading and GO CHIEFS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


I totally wrote the exact same article (http://arrowheadaddict.com/2012/07/31/the-cassel-conundrum/) three months ago (for the SAME site), but this is still well written.

The article. (http://arrowheadaddict.com/2012/10/22/the-chiefs-quarterback-lack-of-opportunity-or-pioli-failure/)

boogblaster
10-22-2012, 10:21 AM
yea .....

Brooklyn
10-22-2012, 10:23 AM
Should've drafted Sanchez in round 1, signed Kurt Warner to the money he was asking for and traded the second rounder we spent on Cassel to the Cards for Boldin. Let Sanchez actually learn behind a veteran QB for two years and enjoy the continuity of having Haley-Warner-Boldin to be the foundation of our new regime with Bowe and Charles.

Sanchez has turned out pretty terrible, but the deck was stacked against him with the pressure of a championship caliber defense, a loud mouth coach who proclaimed him better than he really was, and limited games started in college before he was asked to be the man. He shows flashes every once in a while, but I think his career is toast. A year or two behind a solid vet like Warner could have been helpful.

Pestilence
10-22-2012, 10:23 AM
There is nothing to say that any of those QBs couldn't have done better with the talent that we have around them.

Count Zarth
10-22-2012, 10:23 AM
Go fuck yourself.

I repeat:

Go fuck yourself.

Pestilence
10-22-2012, 10:24 AM
Pioli's biggest failure will always be that he traded for Cassel before the draft.....therefore limiting what we could have done in the draft.

Count Zarth
10-22-2012, 10:25 AM
Do you think all these teams with good QBs had 20 opportunities to get their guy?

Fuck no.

Pioli had several chances to get a better QB and failed.

When he's fired, and justifiably so, shove it up your homer ass.

cdcox
10-22-2012, 10:25 AM
Pioli went straight for Matt Cassel.
Pioli gave him a big contract.
Pioli bet his career on him by doubling down on Cassel this season.

He talks about the QB position withthe phase "good enough" like this is 1975 or something.

I don't know what kind of evidence people want to see before they disqualify thus idiot from setting the course of the franchise for the next 5 years.

DaKCMan AP
10-22-2012, 10:27 AM
If I wanted to read this drivel I'd go to the site where it's posted.

Count Zarth
10-22-2012, 10:27 AM
A good GM would have taken Josh Freeman in 2009 and not even considered Cassel.

Pioli did the exact opposite.

He's a fat retard, and stole countless millions from the Hunts.

Count Zarth
10-22-2012, 10:29 AM
The guy had a superior QB sitting ON HIS ROSTER last January and chose to part ways with him over a couple million dollars.

FUCK this "OPPORTUNITY" nonsense.

God dammit, homers. STFU.

Brock
10-22-2012, 10:31 AM
Looks like a bunch of excuses we've read 1000 times before.

Fish
10-22-2012, 10:34 AM
Good GMs make their opportunities. They don't simply wait for them to fall into their fat greasy laps.

BossChief
10-22-2012, 10:37 AM
The fail here is you don't list trading up as an option.

Any competent GM would have re-signed Orton AND moved up for Tannehill.

CaliforniaChief
10-22-2012, 10:37 AM
I would have even excused the trade for Cassel (and did) until he then gave him the big contract extension before he threw one pass for the Chiefs.

Best case scenario, he plays under the tag number (which we could easily afford), busts, and we call it a good effort and let him go.

Worst case scenario? We're living it.

Deberg_1990
10-22-2012, 10:38 AM
The Chiefs truly screwed up in 2005 by passing on Rodgers, and in 2008 by not trying to trade up for Ryan and passing on Flacco. Damnit Carl!!!

Ben N 58men
10-22-2012, 10:39 AM
It's a process

loochy
10-22-2012, 10:39 AM
The problem is that Pioli didn't at least TRY to address the QB problem. Sure, hindsight is 50/50 and it's easy to say that these were all crappy QBs, but an attempt to replace Cassel would have meant a lot to the fans AND the team.

theelusiveeightrop
10-22-2012, 10:42 AM
20 years of missed opportunities.

notorious
10-22-2012, 10:45 AM
Pioli is running off our current players, and making this a sour place to come for free agents.

**** him.

King_Chief_Fan
10-22-2012, 10:46 AM
The Chiefs did one thing right in all that wrong doing.

They passed on Gabbert...the one guy that Cassel is better than.

Coogs
10-22-2012, 10:47 AM
Pioli is running off our current players, and making this a sour place to come for free agents.

**** him.

This.

Pestilence
10-22-2012, 10:48 AM
Pioli is running off our current players, and making this a sour place to come for free agents.

**** him.

I said it before in another thread. He's gutting all of the past regime's players to make sure that his players are starting.

Bowe is gone so that Baldwin and McCluster can play.
Albert will be gone so that Stephenson can play.
Carr was let go so that Routt could play.

Ace Gunner
10-22-2012, 10:48 AM
Pioli's biggest failure will always be that he traded for Cassel before the draft.....therefore limiting what we could have done in the draft.

The Chiefs lost 8 QB's during the two seasons previous to Pioli/Cassel. Cassel was better than any other QB on the Chiefs roster during 2009, so it was a decent move to bring a guy in that is sturdy and knows your system.

The fail happened last year, when we all knew Cassel completely peaked during his run for the dismal 2010 playoff game where he shit his pants and kept on shitting into 2011.

That should have been when Pioli began diligently searching a quality QB, like, say RG3, whom he could have got, but instead he began making excuses for Cassel and here we are.

Again, I expect Pioli will be fired soon, sometime this season. I expect Hunt will do it before this season is finished, just as he did with CP. Hell, it'll probably look just like that, too -- "Mr Hunt and I have enjoyed great success, but our approach to this game has come to a fork in the road and I am stepping down as of ...".

Pestilence
10-22-2012, 10:49 AM
The Chiefs did one thing right in all that wrong doing.

They passed on Gabbert...the one guy that Cassel is better than.

Gabbert's QB rating: 77.2
Cassel's QB rating: 66.2

Count Zarth
10-22-2012, 10:50 AM
From a pure QB ability standpoint, Cassel is not better than Gabbert.

I've said it since 2011 - any QB with talent and potential > Cassel.

Cassel is just a huge waste of everyone's time.

Pestilence
10-22-2012, 10:51 AM
Cassel is the worst starting QB in the NFL. Look at the talent that he has around him. Any other QB would look better based off of that fact alone.

notorious
10-22-2012, 10:52 AM
Some of us thought Cassel sucked when he was signed, but I don't give Pioli too much grief for that.


Where he REALLY screwed up was keeping Cassel, not attempting to draft a legitimate starting QB and/or keeping Orton. Oh ya, our head coach hire was ****ing brilliant, too.

Complete FAIL ever since Baltimore obliteraped us in the playofsf.

loochy
10-22-2012, 10:56 AM
"Mr Hunt and I have enjoyed great success, but our approach to this game has come to a fork in the road and I am stepping down as of ...".

JIMP

http://employeesofthemonth.net/phpBB3/images/smilies/jimp.png

TheGuardian
10-22-2012, 10:57 AM
I'll be glad when Egoli is fired, but Sanchez and Freeman suck nuts. Glad we didn't draft either.

Ace Gunner
10-22-2012, 11:00 AM
From a pure QB ability standpoint, Cassel is not better than Gabbert.

I've said it since 2011 - any QB with talent and potential > Cassel.

Cassel is just a huge waste of everyone's time.

I think Gabbert would have become better had he been given the job here. Not a big fan of him, but he at least can play QB.

the Talking Can
10-22-2012, 11:01 AM
jesus...the zombie lie

the lengths people go to rationalize failure...

why the fuck did we even hire pioli if the only thing he could do is acquire Cassel...Clark could have done the same stupid fucking thing for free..

notorious
10-22-2012, 11:01 AM
I think Gabbert would have become better had he been given the job here. Not a big fan of him, but he at least can play QB.

With our coaching he wouldn't have stood a chance.

bevischief
10-22-2012, 11:02 AM
A good GM finds a way to get a QB, not sitting on the side of the road.

Pestilence
10-22-2012, 11:03 AM
With our coaching he wouldn't have stood a chance.

Weis and Haley?

the Talking Can
10-22-2012, 11:04 AM
pioli thought Matt Cassel was a franchise QB, and thinks so to this day...

that fact alone is enough to justify firing him...and it sure as hell precludes him from getting to draft a QB for the first time 30 years of this franchise's history

he is a fucking idiot

Ace Gunner
10-22-2012, 11:07 AM
With our coaching he wouldn't have stood a chance.

Haley had this team going playoffs with a lil girl playing QB. I know you don't like that, but there it is.

notorious
10-22-2012, 11:18 AM
Haley had this team going playoffs with a lil girl playing QB. I know you don't like that, but there it is.

I didn't hate Haley, I knew he was given a shit hand.

Mr. Laz
10-22-2012, 11:24 AM
Both

he didn't have anyone fall into his lap, but he sure as hell didn't go out of his way to make it happen.

Bewbies
10-22-2012, 11:30 AM
The homervision in strong in this one.

notorious
10-22-2012, 11:31 AM
Pioli is just waiting on Brady to come on over.

Molitoth
10-22-2012, 11:32 AM
The Chiefs did one thing right in all that wrong doing.

They passed on Gabbert...the one guy that Cassel is better than.

If anyone watched Missouri play, they would've known this. I have no fucking clue how Gabbert got so overrated at draft time.

Count Zarth
10-22-2012, 11:33 AM
I'll be glad when Egoli is fired, but Sanchez and Freeman suck nuts. Glad we didn't draft either.

Freeman's having an OK year, and definitely showing progress.

He's certainly not rated under 70. ROFL

BigMeatballDave
10-22-2012, 11:34 AM
pioli thought Matt Cassel was a franchise QB, and thinks so to this day...

I really wish one of the interviewers last week would have asked him that.

They were most likely instructed not to.

BigMeatballDave
10-22-2012, 11:37 AM
I'll be glad when Egoli is fired, but Sanchez and Freeman suck nuts. Glad we didn't draft either.

Freeman currently has a 91 QB rating.

BigMeatballDave
10-22-2012, 11:38 AM
The Chiefs did one thing right in all that wrong doing.

They passed on Gabbert...the one guy that Cassel is better than.

Ha!

Cassel 66 rating

Gabbert 77

Hoover
10-22-2012, 11:41 AM
Weis and Haley?
You mean Todd the Great now that he's no longer a Chiefs?

4. I think you should watch for chinks in the Steeler offensive harmony. Ben Roethlisberger has been taking little shots at first-year offensive coordinator Todd Haley, and Friday, he told the Pittsburgh Tribune-Review, "Haley's offense is not a big-play offense. It's kind of a dink-and-dunk offense." Asked about wanting more downfield throws, Roethlisberger said: "There's a guy calling the plays. That's on him." There was a gulf between Haley and his quarterback in Kansas City, Matt Cassel, and now there might be some with Roethlisberger.

Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/peter_king/10/21/week-7/index.html#ixzz2A3DBWD6m

Chiefs Pantalones
10-22-2012, 11:44 AM
I totally wrote the exact same article (http://arrowheadaddict.com/2012/07/31/the-cassel-conundrum/) three months ago (for the SAME site), but this is still well written.

The article. (http://arrowheadaddict.com/2012/10/22/the-chiefs-quarterback-lack-of-opportunity-or-pioli-failure/)

This is fucking retarded.

BoneKrusher
10-22-2012, 11:44 AM
A good GM would have taken Josh Freeman in 2009 and not even considered Cassel.

Pioli did the exact opposite.

He's a fat retard, and stole countless millions from the Hunts.

:clap:

Micjones
10-22-2012, 11:44 AM
I can assure you that the author, Lyle Graversen, is anything but a homer.

This is a pretty balanced take, but it'll always read as a homer take to the circle of people who don't give Pioli credit for anything.

Buckweath
10-22-2012, 11:45 AM
Freeman currently has a 91 QB rating.

So you think Freeman is a good Q??

I'd like him 100 times more than Cassell, but you're never winning a SB with a Freeman unless he drastically improves. But again, maybe you personnally think he is good.

Micjones
10-22-2012, 11:45 AM
This is fucking retarded.

Eloquent.

Hoover
10-22-2012, 11:47 AM
So after acquiring Cassel you would have still drafted Freeman?

Hindsight is 20/20 but when Pioli landed Cassel for a 2nd Rounder it looked like a great deal.

Mr. Laz
10-22-2012, 11:49 AM
There is nothing to say that any of those QBs couldn't have done better with the talent that we have around them.
Pioli

BoneKrusher
10-22-2012, 11:50 AM
Hindsight is 20/20 but when Pioli landed Cassel for a 2nd Rounder it looked like a great deal.

i didnt think so, the day Pioli traded for Cassel i called it the worst QB trade since the Lions traded for Scott Mitchell.

jd1020
10-22-2012, 11:50 AM
Both.

Pioli failed with Cassel but there's also been a lack of opportunity. The one legitimate opportunity to grab a QB came last year when Tannehill was up for grabs.

The rest like Dalton, Sanchez, Freeman, Wilson, etc... I don't give a **** about. Remind me when the last time a bottom 3rd QB won anything.

Also, I don't care about RG3. Only morons believe he was an option for the Chiefs.

Woodchuck
10-22-2012, 11:51 AM
No one was going to draft Freeman at #3 in 2009. Furthermore, Pioli tried to trade back and you couldn't give that pick away. Hindsight is 20/20.

DaKCMan AP
10-22-2012, 11:51 AM
So after acquiring Cassel you would have still drafted Freeman?

Hindsight is 20/20 but when Pioli landed Cassel for a 2nd Rounder it looked like a great deal.

JFC. No it didn't.

Micjones
10-22-2012, 11:51 AM
So after acquiring Cassel you would have still drafted Freeman?

Hindsight is 20/20 but when Pioli landed Cassel for a 2nd Rounder it looked like a great deal.

Not sure I'd call it "great", but I think it was a solid transaction.
The problem has always been him prematurely giving him that contract.
THAT was the mistake.

Subsequently, he's missed on probably 3 QB's in the draft.
I believe one maybe two of them is clearly better than Cassel today.

Opportunity or no opportunity, it's still on Pioli.

Pasta Giant Meatball
10-22-2012, 11:51 AM
I think you have to look at both factors, but at the end of the day he hopped in bed with Cassel and that's his ultimate downfall.

Woodchuck
10-22-2012, 11:53 AM
I think you have to look at both factors, but at the end of the day he hopped in bed with Cassel and that's his ultimate downfall.

He hopped in bed with Cassel when he gave him that contract waaayyyy to early. That is why it is ultimately Pioli's fault. Trading for Cassel wasn't bad. Locking him up was bad.

Micjones
10-22-2012, 11:54 AM
Both.

Pioli failed with Cassel but there's also been a lack of opportunity. The one legitimate opportunity to grab a QB came last year when Tannehill was up for grabs.

The rest like Dalton, Sanchez, Freeman, Wilson, etc... I don't give a **** about. Remind me when the last time a bottom 3rd QB won anything.

Also, I don't care about RG3. Only morons believe he was an option for the Chiefs.

Dalton's clearly better than Cassel right now.
Wilson's flashed, but he's been inconsistent.
Freeman's inconsistent too.
Sanchez is trash.

Micjones
10-22-2012, 11:54 AM
I think you have to look at both factors, but at the end of the day he hopped in bed with Cassel and that's his ultimate downfall.

Yep.

jd1020
10-22-2012, 11:54 AM
Dalton's clearly better than Cassel right now.
Wilson's flashed, but he's been inconsistent.
Freeman's inconsistent too.
Sanchez is trash.

I'm so sick of hearing this "X is better than Cassel."

Let me know when you can come to the table with "X can compete for a SB."

Micjones
10-22-2012, 11:57 AM
I'm so sick of hearing this "X is better than Cassel."

Let me know when you can come to the table with "X can compete for a SB."

That's a short list, but I do think Dalton gives that team some hope.
And he's only going to get better.

jd1020
10-22-2012, 11:58 AM
That's a short list, but I do think Dalton gives that team some hope.
And he's only going to get better.

Having you been paying attention to how he plays against playoff teams?

Mr. Laz
10-22-2012, 12:00 PM
Dalton's clearly better than Cassel right now.
Wilson's flashed, but he's been inconsistent.
Freeman's inconsistent too.
Sanchez is trash.
a ton of people passed on Wilson

Freeman fell

passing on Sanchez,Gabbert and Clausen appear to be good decisions so far.

Micjones
10-22-2012, 12:03 PM
Having you been paying attention to how he plays against playoff teams?

He hasn't fared well against his divisional foes in his short career.
Pittsburgh and Baltimore are the ony two playoff teams he's seen this year.
No argument there.

Kid's still growing though.

Chiefnj2
10-22-2012, 12:05 PM
"No opportunity" is a BS excuse. If you are a quality GM, you do what is necessary to acquire a franchise QB. You make moves.

Fish
10-22-2012, 12:09 PM
So after acquiring Cassel you would have still drafted Freeman?

Hindsight is 20/20 but when Pioli landed Cassel for a 2nd Rounder it looked like a great deal.

Not sure how you say it looked like a great deal. Not to mention, the deal wasn't even necessary. We could have let Cassel play for one year instead of giving him a fat contract that he hadn't earned.

Chiefs Pantalones
10-22-2012, 12:11 PM
He hopped in bed with Cassel when he gave him that contract waaayyyy to early. That is why it is ultimately Pioli's fault. Trading for Cassel wasn't bad. Locking him up was bad.

Trading for Cassel WAS bad. When are teams going to learn that going after other teams' backups that had a good year or a good game or two in relieve of the starter is not a smart move? When you have a high pick like we did and no QB worth a shit on your roster that you'd start, you'd think a GM would want to make his first pick a QB to establish his tenure and show some balls.

BoneKrusher
10-22-2012, 12:11 PM
Not sure how you say it looked like a great deal. Not to mention, the deal wasn't even necessary. We could have let Cassel play for one year instead of giving him a fat contract that he hadn't earned.
Exactly.
Pioli locked him up as if he thought some team was gonna offer him a big deal.

loochy
10-22-2012, 12:17 PM
So after acquiring Cassel you would have still drafted Freeman?

Hindsight is 20/20 but when Pioli landed Cassel for a 2nd Rounder it looked like a great deal.

WRONG

Hindsight is 50/50

idiot

Mr. Laz
10-22-2012, 12:26 PM
Trading for Cassel WAS bad. When are teams going to learn that going after other teams' backups that had a good year or a good game or two in relieve of the starter is not a smart move? When you have a high pick like we did and no QB worth a shit on your roster that you'd start, you'd think a GM would want to make his first pick a QB to establish his tenure and show some balls.
not really

a 2nd rounder for Cassel and Vrabel was fine as transitional guys steady the ship. Cassel would of been fine for a season IF you picked up a young QB to take the starting job over when he was ready.

Giving a big contract to Cassel before a single KC snap WAS TERRIBLE.

DaWolf
10-22-2012, 12:41 PM
Pioli made a bad, bad evaluation in Matt Cassel. He saw Tom Brady make it through hard work and determination and figured that if Brady could do it, he could replicate that with Cassel, who by all accounts is also a hard worker and a determined fella. He also made the exact same evaluation with Stanzi, who also shares the same hard working and determined trait.

Problem is, neither of those guys are any good. Pioli in my estimation went about with the plan of having Cassel start for a few years and draft someone (Stanzi) who he really liked and have him take over for Cassel right about now or after the year. He missed on Stanzi. He missed on Cassel. He could very well miss on whoever we draft this year, unless he gets lucky...

DeezNutz
10-22-2012, 12:52 PM
Good GMs make their opportunities. They don't simply wait for them to fall into their fat greasy laps.

Yep, this.

BigChiefTablet
10-22-2012, 03:06 PM
If anyone watched Missouri play, they would've known this. I have no ****ing clue how Gabbert got so overrated at draft time.

Yeah I caught all of about 3 quarters from two different Missouri games, and I was completely convinced that the Chiefs needed to stay the hell away from him on draft day.

SNR
10-22-2012, 03:12 PM
http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/157/234/99124221did_not_read.gif

Chocolate Hog
10-22-2012, 03:15 PM
Got anymore bullshit excuses for why the best Pioli could do is trot out Quinn Mic?

ChiefsCountry
10-22-2012, 03:26 PM
The move in 2009 was to draft Sanchez same as it would have been today. If he succeded you scored, if he failed you draft another one. Not that fucking hard of a concept.

SNR
10-22-2012, 05:46 PM
The move in 2009 was to draft Sanchez same as it would have been today. If he succeded you scored, if he failed you draft another one. Not that fucking hard of a concept.
Yep. If the Chiefs wanted to soften the transition by also trading for Matt Cassel while letting Sanchez sit for a year, I would have been fine with that as well. However it was done, though, we should have made that pick in 2009 and we didn't.

And that's Pioli's fault. He not only made an error in judgment, but he held it up as a great decision for years, giving us the tiresome line, "Matt just needs time/better players." It's one thing to whiff, it's another thing to whiff so hard you set the team back several years.

the Talking Can
10-22-2012, 05:55 PM
after 4 years of pioli, our QB roster is:

Cassel
Quinn
Stanzi

that's the worst, most embarrassing list in the league..3 fucking clowns

fire his incompetent ass...no way in hell that he gets to make more QB decisions...he is the black retard of GMs

Pasta Giant Meatball
10-22-2012, 08:06 PM
Fuck Freeman, I want better

Count Zarth
10-22-2012, 08:09 PM
he is the black retard of GMs

LMAOLMAOLMAO

So un PC...I love you.

BossChief
10-22-2012, 08:17 PM
Yep. If the Chiefs wanted to soften the transition by also trading for Matt Cassel while letting Sanchez sit for a year, I would have been fine with that as well. However it was done, though, we should have made that pick in 2009 and we didn't.

And that's Pioli's fault. He not only made an error in judgment, but he held it up as a great decision for years, giving us the tiresome line, "Matt just needs time/better players." It's one thing to whiff, it's another thing to whiff so hard you set the team back several years.

How much fail did I put out that offseason?

I wanted to sign Jeff Garcia and let Thigpen have another year as the starter (because I didn't like Sanchez or Freeman AT ALL) and wanted us to draft Brian Orakpo with our pick and for us to draft Sam Bradford the next year (partly because he is partly native American and we are the Chiefs...I know, cheesy, but sometimes its silly things like that that end up motivating players)

I will always think that we would have ended up with Bradford and Orakpo in that scenario...along with some other players like Mt Cody (who I was very high on and wouldn't shut up about...even though he hasn't been anything special thus far)

ahhh the good old days.

Pasta Giant Meatball
10-22-2012, 08:18 PM
Rams fans pretty much hate Bradford. Dude sucks in their mind.

O.city
10-22-2012, 08:19 PM
How were we to get Bradford Boss?

BossChief
10-22-2012, 08:29 PM
How were we to get Bradford Boss?

Thigpen starting in 2009.

BossChief
10-22-2012, 08:30 PM
Rams fans pretty much hate Bradford. Dude sucks in their mind.

Id hate him too if the team decided to keep him instead of drafting RG3.

O.city
10-22-2012, 08:31 PM
I would absolutely love to have Bradford.


STL has basically refused to put anything around the guy.

mcaj22
10-22-2012, 08:32 PM
we probably would have won more games with Thigpen in 09 than we did Cassel anyway lol

O.city
10-22-2012, 08:33 PM
Just think if Thigpen wouldn't have won what 2 games? We go 0fer and draft Bradford.

BossChief
10-22-2012, 08:35 PM
I would absolutely love to have Bradford.


STL has basically refused to put anything around the guy.

Exactly.

Give Bradford Dwayne Bowe and Jamaal Charles and he would probably be a star.

BossChief
10-22-2012, 08:36 PM
Just think if Thigpen wouldn't have won what 2 games? We go 0fer and draft Bradford.

haha

And if we had drafted Bradford, I wouldnt have been desperate enough to prop up Jimmy Clausen as high as I did.

Clausen and Stanzi are the two QBs that I may have totally whiffed on.

Time will tell.

O.city
10-22-2012, 08:37 PM
Bradford is extremely accurate, but he's had some injury problems.

I bet if they knew then what they know now, the Rams would have tried to trade Bradford and take RGIII.

BossChief
10-22-2012, 08:39 PM
Bradford is extremely accurate, but he's had some injury problems.

I bet if they knew then what they know now, the Rams would have tried to trade Bradford and take RGIII.

Not with Jeff "8-8" Fisher.

Coogs
10-22-2012, 08:44 PM
Bradford is extremely accurate, but he's had some injury problems.

I bet if they knew then what they know now, the Rams would have tried to trade Bradford and take RGIII.

Kind of interesting that Pioli wouldn't mortgage the future to get RGIII. Imagine what the future might have been if he would have. Instead, he mortgaged his future on Matt Cassel.

O.city
10-22-2012, 08:45 PM
Think, if you had given up every pick of last years draft.


8 picks that have made 0 impact this year, for RGIII.

Coogs
10-22-2012, 08:48 PM
Think, if you had given up every pick of last years draft.


8 picks that have made 0 impact this year, for RGIII.

I was all in on that one. That's not hindsight either.

BossChief
10-22-2012, 08:49 PM
Think, if you had given up every pick of last years draft.


8 picks that have made 0 impact this year, for RGIII.

It would have takent 2 WHOLE drafts and then some.

The more realistic option (that was discarded) was Ryan Tannehill.

We could have had Tannehill for what equates to Dontari Poe and Stephenson.

:facepalm:

That right there is a fireable offense for Pioli.\

If the jerkoff was halfway objective, we would have came out of last offseason with Orton and Tannehill.

BossChief
10-22-2012, 08:51 PM
That, right there, is the difference between what this team SHOULD BE and with IT IS.

O.city
10-22-2012, 08:51 PM
Tannehill would have been fine, but RGIII could have been had for players that were drafted to replace players that our GM has fucked up and not signed.


You sign Carr, Bowe, and Albert last offseason, trade the whole draft and another first to the Rams for RGIII, sign a few decent stop gap free agents and see what happens.

jd1020
10-22-2012, 08:53 PM
I love the clueless morons who believe we could have traded for RG3.

BossChief
10-22-2012, 08:53 PM
the redskins traded #6 and the next 2 firsts to move up.

It would have taken us 2 WHOLE drafts and probably another good pick just to make up that many draft value points.

Im not pissed that we didn't go that far, but there was no excuse for not moving up for Tannehill.

that kid is very impressive and is running a hurry up as well as almost anyone and is doing so without any good weapons to throw to.

Brian Hartline is now a star and will make millions because of RT.

O.city
10-22-2012, 08:55 PM
I love the clueless morons who believe we could have traded for RG3.

Did we have the picks to trade for him?


Shit trade your next two whole drafts for the guy.

jd1020
10-22-2012, 08:57 PM
the redskins traded #6 and the next 2 firsts to move up.

It would have taken us 2 WHOLE drafts and probably another good pick just to make up that many draft value points.

Nevermind that the Rams had their sights on Kalil, Richardson, and/or Blackmon.

There were reports that right after the Jacksonville made a trade to jump in front of the Rams for Blackmon that Fisher slammed his glasses on the table.

It wasn't until after the Rams missed out on who they wanted that they traded down passed the Chiefs pick.

O.city
10-22-2012, 09:00 PM
2 whole drafts and Bowe for RGIII> Bowe for a year on the tag and last years draft (and likely this years if Pioli drafts)

Coogs
10-22-2012, 09:01 PM
I love the clueless morons who believe we could have traded for RG3.

We never tried. Hell, the Rams wound up trading down to 13th by the time it was all said and done, so there was probably a deal out there that they would have accepted to landed in the 11 spot.

Might have cost us players and picks, but we never even tried.

jd1020
10-22-2012, 09:02 PM
We never tried. Hell, the Rams wound up trading down to 13th by the time it was all said and done, so there was probably a deal out there that they would have accepted to landed in the 11 spot.

Might have cost us players and picks, but we never even tried.

... Point proven.

Coogs
10-22-2012, 09:04 PM
... Point proven.

Ok, so I am a slow typer/researcher.

FAX
10-22-2012, 09:06 PM
Pioli went straight for Matt Cassel.
Pioli gave him a big contract.
Pioli bet his career on him by doubling down on Cassel this season.

He talks about the QB position withthe phase "good enough" like this is 1975 or something.

I don't know what kind of evidence people want to see before they disqualify thus idiot from setting the course of the franchise for the next 5 years.

Concise. Precise. And just plain nice.

The Yep Fairy awards you three Magic Yeps for this post. Use them wisely.

FAX

FAX
10-22-2012, 09:08 PM
There really should be a web page somewhere that breaks down Pioligo's drafts. They really aren't that great ... even if you homer up on some of the players.

FAX

Simply Red
10-22-2012, 09:13 PM
This is ****ing retarded.

http://i.imgur.com/Dfg5b.jpg (http://imgur.com/Dfg5b)

Simply Red
10-22-2012, 09:16 PM
... Point proven.

http://i.imgur.com/Dfg5b.jpg (http://imgur.com/Dfg5b)

jd1020
10-22-2012, 09:17 PM
http://i.imgur.com/Dfg5b.jpg (http://imgur.com/Dfg5b)

Q

BossChief
10-22-2012, 09:36 PM
We never tried. Hell, the Rams wound up trading down to 13th by the time it was all said and done, so there was probably a deal out there that they would have accepted to landed in the 11 spot.

Might have cost us players and picks, but we never even tried.

They moved back to 17 iirc with Dallas...who moved up to 6 from 17 by only using a 2nd round pick.

We should have moved up to 6 and taken Tannehill.

That would have restored hope in the franchise and saved Piolis job.

DeezNutz
10-22-2012, 09:41 PM
the redskins traded #6 and the next 2 firsts to move up.


The teams swapped firsts in '12, so we need to quit this narrative of the trade being 3 first-round picks because it's misleading.

The Chiefs could have made a deal happen, particularly if Bowe were part of the package, as I suggested around draft time. It would have taken creativity and foresight, though, and Egoli doesn't possess these qualities.

jspchief
10-22-2012, 09:52 PM
It doesn't matter what opportunities they had. Pioli committed to Cassel (and probably Stanzi too). QB wasn't on the shopping list.

The failure to draft a QB is a franchise failure dating back 4 decades.

Pioli's failure is a series of horrible moves consisting of Cassel, Haley, Tjax, Crennel, Daboll, etc.

The two issues tend to get lumped together, but to be fair they are separate failures that are both partly to blame for this current dumpster fire.

RunKC
10-22-2012, 10:23 PM
Pioli should have drafted Andy freaking Dalton. We would have made the playoffs with him last year and we'd be right in the playoff race right now if he was the QB this year.

This is the move that Pioli completely fucked up. Especially since Pioli really wanted him.

Chief_For_Life58
10-22-2012, 11:09 PM
I was realllly baffled when we didn't take one of those guys with our 3 rd rounder. the thing is is that the past 4 years, u dont sit back and say , wow egoli is really good at his job hes drafted good players some are starters and hes done well in fa. BUT he hasent. were no better off now then we were when we fired herm. the past 4 years of egoli do NOT show anywhere enough positives for me to want this guy drafting our hopeful qbotf and making a decision that can affect our franchise for the next decade. hes gonna fuck it up. and another huge point is the fact that no good hc wants to coach under him. that alone should be enough reason for clark to fire this fatty. CLARK TAKE THE FUCKING TRASH OUT!

Count Zarth
10-22-2012, 11:19 PM
Pioli should have drafted Andy freaking Dalton. We would have made the playoffs with him last year and we'd be right in the playoff race right now if he was the QB this year.

This is the move that Pioli completely fucked up. Especially since Pioli really wanted him.

Pioli wasn't going to take a QB in the 1st the year after Cassel went 27-7 (although doing so would have been incredibly full of foresight and praiseworthy).


Pioli's only real faults:


1. Not drafting Freeman (who is ascending as predicted, and is going to be a stud).

2. Giving Cassel money undeserved.

3. Not keeping Orton.


That's enough.

Fuck him. GTFO.

O.city
10-22-2012, 11:20 PM
Freeman sucks

FAX
10-22-2012, 11:47 PM
This kinda reminded me of Pioligo's decision-making ...

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/hz65AOjabtM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

FAX

themanwithnoname
10-22-2012, 11:54 PM
Answer: Total Pioli Failure

Peyton Manning, several QBs worth drafting, that is not lack of opportunity.