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View Full Version : Life ZMA is the shit


Buck
10-25-2012, 06:02 AM
Does anyone else here take it? Its Zinc, Magnesium, and B6. I take it right before bed and I get the best sleep ever. Hell, I've even had control of my dreams.

Waking up is super easy and overall I feel more like a man. Check it out if you.haven't already.

Saulbadguy
10-25-2012, 06:03 AM
Placebo, does nothing, scam.

theelusiveeightrop
10-25-2012, 06:03 AM
If Norv takes it, I'm in.

seclark
10-25-2012, 06:04 AM
what do you mean, "control of my dreams"?
sec

RockChalk
10-25-2012, 06:11 AM
Placebo, does nothing, scam.

So long as it works for him, does it really matter?

Guru
10-25-2012, 06:11 AM
STuff never worked for me.

Buck
10-25-2012, 06:12 AM
Placebo, does nothing, scam.
LOL. Mr Pessimism right on time.
what do you mean, "control of my dreams"?
sec

A few days ago when I woke up, I remembered my dream completely. I felt like I had control over what I did in the dream. Last night I decided to test it and I told myself I'm going to dream about trains. It sorta worked because I ended up riding a train from Philly to LA in my dream. I don't know. Its weird. I remember so much detail from my dreams since I've started taking it. Very vivid stuff.

Guru
10-25-2012, 06:12 AM
what do you mean, "control of my dreams"?
sec

He experiments with inception.

Guru
10-25-2012, 06:14 AM
I had a dream last night that I was getting mugged and the mugger twisted my arm pretty damn hard. Woke up in the morning and that arm was really, I mean really, sore.

Saulbadguy
10-25-2012, 06:19 AM
A few days ago when I woke up, I remembered my dream completely. I felt like I had control over what I did in the dream. Last night I decided to test it and I told myself I'm going to dream about trains. It sorta worked because I ended up riding a train from Philly to LA in my dream. I don't know. Its weird. I remember so much detail from my dreams since I've started taking it. Very vivid stuff.

Our minds are powerful entities.

Guru
10-25-2012, 06:21 AM
Our minds are powerful entities.

Then there is Matt Cassel.

seclark
10-25-2012, 06:21 AM
A few days ago when I woke up, I remembered my dream completely. I felt like I had control over what I did in the dream. Last night I decided to test it and I told myself I'm going to dream about trains. It sorta worked because I ended up riding a train from Philly to LA in my dream. I don't know. Its weird. I remember so much detail from my dreams since I've started taking it. Very vivid stuff.

so, you're taking this as some kind of sleep aid? (sorry if i sound like donger)
sec

Buck
10-25-2012, 06:25 AM
so, you're taking this as some kind of sleep aid? (sorry if i sound like donger)
sec

It was recommended to me for muscle recovery (by way of better sleep at night). Nearly every review of it talks about awesome sleep. Check it out.

Saulbadguy
10-25-2012, 06:29 AM
It was recommended to me for muscle recovery (by way of better sleep at night). Nearly every review of it talks about awesome sleep. Check it out.

If you think and believe something is going to make you sleep better it's going to make you sleep better.

Guru
10-25-2012, 06:30 AM
If you think and believe something is going to make you sleep better it's going to make you sleep better.

I guess I don't believe anything will make me sleep better then, because nothing works with any success.

seclark
10-25-2012, 06:31 AM
It was recommended to me for muscle recovery (by way of better sleep at night). Nearly every review of it talks about awesome sleep. Check it out.

don't think so, thanks.
my sleep is fucked up enough w/dreams, walking and talking. if i take something, i want it to knock me out. no dreams at all(that i can remember).
it just interests me when i hear of people talking about their dreams.

like sbg said, the mind is a powerful entity.
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Brock
10-25-2012, 06:33 AM
Can you sleep less, or do you still have to sleep the same number of hours?

Buck
10-25-2012, 06:33 AM
If you think and believe something is going to make you sleep better it's going to make you sleep better.

Not really.

htismaqe
10-25-2012, 06:51 AM
what do you mean, "control of my dreams"?
sec

You know exactly what it means.

http://turtlecanyon.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/neverending-story.png

Buck
10-25-2012, 07:02 AM
Can you sleep less, or do you still have to sleep the same number of hours?

People claim that is the case. Not for me. I tried getting 5 hours only on the ZMA and I was pretty dead the next morning. It doesn't help you fall asleep either, just gives you a deeper sleep. As far as it being a placebo or hoax, I read a study that it has minimal effect on men's testosterone levels, which it is sometimes marketed for. However, a simple Google search should pretty much put away any doubts that one has about its positive effects on sleep.

Aspengc8
10-25-2012, 07:09 AM
Sleep is overrated for recovery. Food quantity/quality is much more important. I don't think I've had more than 5hr sleep/night since my daughter was born 9 months ago, and I still hit PR's. Shit I had 2 hours sleep last week and drove upstate with a buddy for a meet and still hit a 1200 total.

Deberg_1990
10-25-2012, 07:14 AM
A few days ago when I woke up, I remembered my dream completely. I felt like I had control over what I did in the dream. Last night I decided to test it and I told myself I'm going to dream about trains. It sorta worked because I ended up riding a train from Philly to LA in my dream. I don't know. Its weird. I remember so much detail from my dreams since I've started taking it. Very vivid stuff.

Have you reached level 4 yet? What did you use as your kick to wake up?

TheGuardian
10-25-2012, 07:26 AM
ZMA really works, and has been proven to. It's not placebo.

It's not so much that it makes you sleepy, but it relaxes your mind which allow you to fall asleep easier.

Buck
10-25-2012, 07:27 AM
Have you reached level 4 yet? What did you use as your kick to wake up?

No joke I woke up freaking out because I was under arrest, was dehydrated, and the cop was making me drink milk. I don't consume sugars so it freaked me out.

I woke up and my mouth was super dry.

LiveSteam
10-25-2012, 07:27 AM
It made my pee turn green.

loochy
10-25-2012, 07:27 AM
ZMA really works, and has been proven to. It's not placebo.

It's not so much that it makes you sleepy, but it relaxes your mind which allow you to fall asleep easier.

...if you are deficient in zinc or magnesium

loochy
10-25-2012, 07:31 AM
BTW buck...I haven't seen many posts from you lately? What happened?

Buck
10-25-2012, 07:34 AM
BTW buck...I haven't seen many posts from you lately? What happened?

Work 5 am- 3:30 pm everyday. Then I lift after work til 6ish 3 days a week. I'm usually here on the weekends though.

Zeke
10-25-2012, 07:34 AM
Does anyone else here take it? Its Zinc, Magnesium, and B6. I take it right before bed and I get the best sleep ever. Hell, I've even had control of my dreams.

Waking up is super easy and overall I feel more like a man. Check it out if you.haven't already.

I'm not taking anything where the creators can't spell the acronym of their own product correctly. :p

savchief
10-25-2012, 08:05 AM
ZMA really works, and has been proven to. It's not placebo.

It's not so much that it makes you sleepy, but it relaxes your mind which allow you to fall asleep easier.

Not true, I just looked and there are exactly ZERO studies say ZMA has any effect on anything, and there are well-designed double blind studies showing it has zero effect on testosterone. So the feeling more "manly" is pure placebo. Sleep evidence is all word of mouth (anecdotal). No studies have been done as far as I see pertaining to sleep benefits.
One study had "evidence" that it increased testosterone, but that study was done by ZMA creator, Victor Conte of BALCO infamy. The study has been discredited and has never been duplicated.
But the placebo effect is often just as real for those who feel it. If you believe it's giving you better sleep, then enjoy. Only thing getting hurt is your wallet.

WV
10-25-2012, 08:07 AM
don't think so, thanks.
my sleep is ****ed up enough w/dreams, walking and talking. if i take something, i want it to knock me out. no dreams at all(that i can remember).
it just interests me when i hear of people talking about their dreams.

like sbg said, the mind is a powerful entity.
sec

Entertainment for the kids!

loochy
10-25-2012, 08:08 AM
Although I do have to say that when I took it in college it DID do something to my sleep (not muscles though). I would go to sleep and wake up super early and I'd be wide wide awake. I had lots of dreams too. It's kind of weird.

And it WASN'T placebo because I didn't even know it was known to mess with sleep at the time (it was right when ZMA came out and I took it for the claimed test upping effects). The effect on sleep was very noticeable and it definitely wasn't a placebo. It took me a few weeks to draw a connection to what was messing with my sleep and it stopped when the ZMA ran out.

QuikSsurfer
10-25-2012, 08:10 AM
Sleep is overrated for recovery. Food quantity/quality is much more important. I don't think I've had more than 5hr sleep/night since my daughter was born 9 months ago, and I still hit PR's. Shit I had 2 hours sleep last week and drove upstate with a buddy for a meet and still hit a 1200 total.

Wat?

loochy
10-25-2012, 08:11 AM
Sleep is overrated for recovery. Food quantity/quality is much more important. I don't think I've had more than 5hr sleep/night since my daughter was born 9 months ago, and I still hit PR's. Shit I had 2 hours sleep last week and drove upstate with a buddy for a meet and still hit a 1200 total.

Wat?

Get more sleep and you'll be even better?

htismaqe
10-25-2012, 08:14 AM
BTW buck...I haven't seen many posts from you lately? What happened?

Can't post...busy controlling dreams!

KCUnited
10-25-2012, 08:16 AM
This sounds similar to my experiences with melatonin, better sleep, more vivid dreams. How do the 2 differ?

loochy
10-25-2012, 08:22 AM
This sounds similar to my experiences with melatonin, better sleep, more vivid dreams. How do the 2 differ?

Melatonin is a hormone.

ZMA is a combo of Zinc, Magnesium, and B6.

FYI - more than half of Americans don't get enough Magnesium, so that's probably what's causing the effect.
http://www.longislanddiabetes.org/Microsoft%20Word%20-%20Nutrient%20Gap%20for%20ADA.pdf

Frosty
10-25-2012, 08:29 AM
No joke I woke up freaking out because I was under arrest, was dehydrated, and the cop was making me drink milk. I don't consume sugars so it freaked me out.

I woke up and my mouth was super dry.


I've been gluten free for 6.5 years and I still have gluten nightmares, where I eat some bread or something then stop and think "oh, wait!" and hunker down to wait for the pain to start. I am so relieved when I wake up and realize it's a dream. LMAO

Buck
10-25-2012, 08:32 AM
I've been gluten free for 6.5 years and I still have gluten nightmares, where I eat some bread or something then stop and think "oh, wait!" and hunker down to wait for the pain to start. I am so relieved when I wake up and realize it's a dream. LMAO

Yeah. I have sugar nightmares at least once a week lol.

BigCatDaddy
10-25-2012, 08:35 AM
Any Gaba users?

Aspengc8
10-25-2012, 08:40 AM
Wat?

Whats not to understand? Do you need a consistent 8hrs of sleep to recover? Nope. I've been eating my ass off and sleeping 4-5 hrs/night, and training 5 sometimes 6 times per week and recovering fine. Weights going up every week so whats complicated about that? Am I tired, hell yeah. Nothing a good pre-workout drink can't fix.

gblowfish
10-25-2012, 08:44 AM
It's shit, that's for sure....

http://i48.tinypic.com/30xho2c.jpg

BigCatDaddy
10-25-2012, 08:48 AM
Whats not to understand? Do you need a consistent 8hrs of sleep to recover? Nope. I've been eating my ass off and sleeping 4-5 hrs/night, and training 5 sometimes 6 times per week and recovering fine. Weights going up every week so whats complicated about that? Am I tired, hell yeah. Nothing a good pre-workout drink can't fix.

How long have you been training for continuously to this point? Any other PED's besides caffeine?

TheGuardian
10-25-2012, 08:48 AM
Not true, I just looked and there are exactly ZERO studies say ZMA has any effect on anything, and there are well-designed double blind studies showing it has zero effect on testosterone. So the feeling more "manly" is pure placebo. Sleep evidence is all word of mouth (anecdotal). No studies have been done as far as I see pertaining to sleep benefits.
One study had "evidence" that it increased testosterone, but that study was done by ZMA creator, Victor Conte of BALCO infamy. The study has been discredited and has never been duplicated.
But the placebo effect is often just as real for those who feel it. If you believe it's giving you better sleep, then enjoy. Only thing getting hurt is your wallet.

It would only make you "feel more manly" if you were already deficient in zinc. Then yes, it would help raise natural test levels.

But either way, you're wrong.

http://www.charlespoliquin.com/Blog/tabid/130/EntryId/596/Tip-151-Take-Zinc-and-Increase-Testosterone-Levels-at-Rest-and-After-Training-Don-t-Miss-Out-on-Gains-Because-You-are-Nutritionally-Deficient.aspx

TheGuardian
10-25-2012, 08:50 AM
Sleep is overrated for recovery. Food quantity/quality is much more important. I don't think I've had more than 5hr sleep/night since my daughter was born 9 months ago, and I still hit PR's. Shit I had 2 hours sleep last week and drove upstate with a buddy for a meet and still hit a 1200 total.

A 1200 total? I hope you're 130 pounds.

Sleep is the most important factor in recovery. You may can pull off a decent training session here or there with lack of sleep, but without a lot of solid sleep growth will be inhibited.

BIG_DADDY
10-25-2012, 08:57 AM
Not true, I just looked and there are exactly ZERO studies say ZMA has any effect on anything, and there are well-designed double blind studies showing it has zero effect on testosterone. So the feeling more "manly" is pure placebo. Sleep evidence is all word of mouth (anecdotal). No studies have been done as far as I see pertaining to sleep benefits.
One study had "evidence" that it increased testosterone, but that study was done by ZMA creator, Victor Conte of BALCO infamy. The study has been discredited and has never been duplicated.
But the placebo effect is often just as real for those who feel it. If you believe it's giving you better sleep, then enjoy. Only thing getting hurt is your wallet.

I get asked all the time why I don't post in the fitness and supp threads anymore and it is because of posts like this. The calming effects of magnesium and calcium were well known way back when I was a just a kid which was a long time ago. I am sure you could come up with all kids of examples right here at the planet. About 6 months back Iherb sent me a few complimentary packs to try. A deeper undisturbed sleep is immediately noticeable as well as the ability to sleep longer. I usually can only sleep 7 hours but I can sleep up to 10 hours after taking the product and yes because of that you definately have more dreams you remember. I bought a couple bottles and have turned friends and family onto it and have recieved the same feedback with one even dumping his sleep meds. You certainly will not be bringing a tranquilizer to the party but the effects are very noticeable.

On a supp note I have to say I love using nitric oxide. I got a bottle of vitrix the other day as I was told the product was amazing. It's like walking around at 16 again with a boner. YOu want to fuck until you draw back a bloody stub and have unfriggen believably strong orgasms you gotta roll with that combo. I like their t-up product as well with a little reversitrol when cycling down.

Aspengc8
10-25-2012, 08:57 AM
A 1200 total? I hope you're 130 pounds.

Sleep is the most important factor in recovery. You may can pull off a decent training session here or there with lack of sleep, but without a lot of solid sleep growth will be inhibited.

Just DL/SQ. Cant bench for another 6 months, just had 3 osteophytes removed from my left shoulders. Not nearly as strong as some of the beasts on this site, but not bad considering the injuries I've been through. Anyway..

I'm sure 8 hours would be better, but I cant remember for the life of me the last time I had that much. Everyone is different and what some people need to grow isn't the same as the next. People respond differently to different types of training, intensity, etc but as long as caloric needs are met, I think people can and will grow off low sleep. Not NO sleep, but 5-6 hours per night should b fine.

TheGuardian
10-25-2012, 08:59 AM
Just DL/SQ. Cant bench for another 6 months, just had 3 osteophytes removed from my left shoulders.

I'm sure 8 hours would be better, but I cant remember for the life of me the last time I had that much. Everyone is different antd what some people need to grow isnt the same as the next.

Then since you don't get 8, you can't say. I can tell you that when my sleep is top notch, training is too. However as a lifetime insomniac that isn't often.

Aspengc8
10-25-2012, 09:05 AM
Then since you don't get 8, you can't say. I can tell you that when my sleep is top notch, training is too. However as a lifetime insomniac that isn't often.

But you still progress on your lifts as a insomniac, no?

BIG_DADDY
10-25-2012, 09:07 AM
Then since you don't get 8, you can't say. I can tell you that when my sleep is top notch, training is too. However as a lifetime insomniac that isn't often.

We have a place where I live that specializes in making custom tintures. I had them make one for sleeping and it was like getting hit in the head with a baseball bat. You might want to try that if you are trying to stay on natural products. If you can't find a place that does cusom work like that I could refer you.

BoneKrusher
10-25-2012, 09:09 AM
He experiments with inception.

so it's the immaculate inception.

BigCatDaddy
10-25-2012, 09:11 AM
I get asked all the time why I don't post in the fitness and supp threads anymore and it is because of posts like this. The calming effects of magnesium and calcium were well known way back when I was a just a kid which was a long time ago. I am sure you could come up with all kids of examples right here at the planet. About 6 months back Iherb sent me a few complimentary packs to try. A deeper undisturbed sleep is immediately noticeable as well as the ability to sleep longer. I usually can only sleep 7 hours but I can sleep up to 10 hours after taking the product and yes because of that you definately have more dreams you remember. I bought a couple bottles and have turned friends and family onto it and have recieved the same feedback with one even dumping his sleep meds. You certainly will not be bringing a tranquilizer to the party but the effects are very noticeable.

On a supp note I have to say I love using nitric oxide. I got a bottle of vitrix the other day as I was told the product was amazing. It's like walking around at 16 again with a boner. YOu want to **** until you draw back a bloody stub and have unfriggen believably strong orgasms you gotta roll with that combo. I like their t-up product as well with a little reversitrol when cycling down.


I had a similar experience using Plasma Jet from Gaspari, but not a fan of NO products as a whole. I do love me some stims though.

Buck
10-25-2012, 09:12 AM
I get asked all the time why I don't post in the fitness and supp threads anymore and it is because of posts like this. The calming effects of magnesium and calcium were well known way back when I was a just a kid which was a long time ago. I am sure you could come up with all kids of examples right here at the planet. About 6 months back Iherb sent me a few complimentary packs to try. A deeper undisturbed sleep is immediately noticeable as well as the ability to sleep longer. I usually can only sleep 7 hours but I can sleep up to 10 hours after taking the product and yes because of that you definately have more dreams you remember. I bought a couple bottles and have turned friends and family onto it and have recieved the same feedback with one even dumping his sleep meds. You certainly will not be bringing a tranquilizer to the party but the effects are very noticeable.

On a supp note I have to say I love using nitric oxide. I got a bottle of vitrix the other day as I was told the product was amazing. It's like walking around at 16 again with a boner. YOu want to fuck until you draw back a bloody stub and have unfriggen believably strong orgasms you gotta roll with that combo. I like their t-up product as well with a little reversitrol when cycling down.

Does it have Yohimbe in it? That stuff always does the same to me.

QuikSsurfer
10-25-2012, 09:14 AM
Whats not to understand? Do you need a consistent 8hrs of sleep to recover? Nope. I've been eating my ass off and sleeping 4-5 hrs/night, and training 5 sometimes 6 times per week and recovering fine. Weights going up every week so whats complicated about that? Am I tired, hell yeah. Nothing a good pre-workout drink can't fix.

Then I'm assuming you plateaued long ago and you saying you're still adding weights every week is horseshit. When seriously weight training, sleep is most important factor when building/rebuilding muscle.

BIG_DADDY
10-25-2012, 09:15 AM
I had a similar experience using Plasma Jet from Gaspari, but not a fan of NO products as a whole. I do love me some stims though.

The only thing I have from ON is the ZMA

TheGuardian
10-25-2012, 09:16 AM
But you still progress on your lifts as a insomniac, no?

When my sleep is not going well, my training tends to be very up and down, sporadic. When I can get 10-14 days of great sleep in a row, it's off the charts every time.

Recovery happens at it's highest level when you sleep. So even if you have some decent training sessions on little sleep, you'd have even better ones on more sleep. If you can get 10+ hours in plus a nap, watch what happens.....

QuikSsurfer
10-25-2012, 09:17 AM
Then since you don't get 8, you can't say. I can tell you that when my sleep is top notch, training is too. However as a lifetime insomniac that isn't often.

Yes sir.

BIG_DADDY
10-25-2012, 09:18 AM
Does it have Yohimbe in it? That stuff always does the same to me.

liquid-German tribulus

BigCatDaddy
10-25-2012, 09:18 AM
The only thing I have from ON is the ZMA

Ment NO- Nitric Oxide.

BIG_DADDY
10-25-2012, 09:22 AM
Ment NO- Nitric Oxide.

I am using Nitrix right now.

Aspengc8
10-25-2012, 09:31 AM
When my sleep is not going well, my training tends to be very up and down, sporadic. When I can get 10-14 days of great sleep in a row, it's off the charts every time.

Recovery happens at it's highest level when you sleep. So even if you have some decent training sessions on little sleep, you'd have even better ones on more sleep. If you can get 10+ hours in plus a nap, watch what happens.....

I'm going to try and sneak a lunchtime nap in @ work and see if it makes a difference.

Then I'm assuming you plateaued long ago and you saying you're still adding weights every week is horseshit. When seriously weight training, sleep is most important factor when building/rebuilding muscle.

both weights and bodyweight still going up so far. I'm sure it will plateau eventually though.

TheGuardian
10-25-2012, 09:32 AM
I'm going to try and sneak a lunchtime nap in @ work.

If I could I would. I just can't ever actually fall asleep. If I get a nap in on the weekends it's like someone gave me a new body in terms of recovery.

BIG_DADDY
10-25-2012, 09:41 AM
If I could I would. I just can't ever actually fall asleep. If I get a nap in on the weekends it's like someone gave me a new body in terms of recovery.

I can't even imagine living like that. You must be aging at an unreal clip. Have you seen a sleep specialist?

lcarus
10-25-2012, 10:44 AM
I'll give it a try. I've been having a bitch of a time getting any sleep lately.

TheGuardian
10-25-2012, 11:03 AM
I can't even imagine living like that. You must be aging at an unreal clip. Have you seen a sleep specialist?

When I was younger. I go through bouts where I am fine. Fall asleep on my own, sleep all night, etc. Then I'll have 1 night and it all starts from there.

I love sleep, I just can't seem to get as much of it as I want. :(

Rausch
10-25-2012, 11:11 AM
ZMA really works, and has been proven to. It's not placebo.

It's not so much that it makes you sleepy, but it relaxes your mind which allow you to fall asleep easier.

I've been taking generic lorazapam for years for that effect.

I'll definitely try it unless it's like $30 a bottle...

TheGuardian
10-25-2012, 11:14 AM
I've been taking generic lorazapam for years for that effect.

I'll definitely try it unless it's like $30 a bottle...

That's a solid choice. I go back and forth between lunesta and ambien when I REALLY need to catch up.

Hoover
10-25-2012, 11:16 AM
LOL. Mr Pessimism right on time.


A few days ago when I woke up, I remembered my dream completely. I felt like I had control over what I did in the dream. Last night I decided to test it and I told myself I'm going to dream about trains. It sorta worked because I ended up riding a train from Philly to LA in my dream. I don't know. Its weird. I remember so much detail from my dreams since I've started taking it. Very vivid stuff.
Dude if I was going to test it my topic of choice wouldn't be trains. WTF?

BigCatDaddy
10-25-2012, 11:30 AM
Dude if I was going to test it my topic of choice wouldn't be trains. WTF?

Maybe just not THAT type of train.

Buck
10-25-2012, 11:41 AM
Dude if I was going to test it my topic of choice wouldn't be trains. WTF?

I wanted to test it on something that I never dream or think about.

lcarus
10-25-2012, 12:07 PM
If you really wanna have vivid, fucked up dreams....put on a nicotine patch before bedtime. I'm dead serious. It's nuts. For me at least.

Pestilence
10-25-2012, 12:15 PM
Where do you pick it up at?

BigCatDaddy
10-25-2012, 12:19 PM
Where do you pick it up at?

If you aren't in a hurry I would pick it up on Amazon. NOW is a cheap quality brand.
I take their Omege -3 and CoQ10.

http://www.amazon.com/NOW-Foods-Zma-90-Capsules/dp/B0013OZGQ0/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1351189063&sr=8-1&keywords=now+zma

Buck
10-25-2012, 12:23 PM
I bought it at The Vitamin Shoppe.

FAX
10-25-2012, 12:43 PM
What if you don't want to dream about trains? Do they have a version that is about ships and boats?

FAX

Bump
10-25-2012, 12:45 PM
I had a dream last night that I was getting mugged and the mugger twisted my arm pretty damn hard. Woke up in the morning and that arm was really, I mean really, sore.

I've had dreams where I'm constantly peeing, then I'm like WAKE UP WAKE UP WAKE UP GOD DAMNIT WAKE UP

BigCatDaddy
10-25-2012, 12:46 PM
What if you don't want to dream about trains? Do they have a version that is about ships and boats?

FAX

Then I suggest a water bed and a lovely lady from our BBW threat that likes to toss and turn in her sleep.

FAX
10-25-2012, 12:46 PM
don't think so, thanks.
my sleep is ****ed up enough w/dreams, walking and talking. if i take something, i want it to knock me out. no dreams at all(that i can remember).
it just interests me when i hear of people talking about their dreams.

like sbg said, the mind is a powerful entity.
sec

Are you okay, Mr. seclark? I mean, this is like the longest post you've ever made in your whole life. Flat gabby today.

By the way, remember her? Ol' Flat Gabby? Quite a girl ...

FAX

KCinNY
10-25-2012, 01:18 PM
Used to experience frequent sleep interruptions due to pain.

Doctor gave me oxycodone...problem solved.

BigCatDaddy
10-25-2012, 01:21 PM
Used to experience frequent sleep interruptions due to pain.

Doctor gave me oxycodone...problem solved.

Ahhh great stuff. I've also used low dosed hyrocodone as a sleep aid. Too much of that stuff and it's like line of speed though.

Fish
10-25-2012, 01:44 PM
This thread could use some Science.....

First off... most of the "Supplements" available do not do what you think they do. Supplements by and large are simply snake oil meant to take your money while giving you the psychologically pleasing feeling of helping yourself. There are some things for sure that actually have affects on your body that make it worth it, as you'll see from the graphic below.

I know there will be many posts saying BS, it worked for me and this guy I know. But generally all these ingredients have been studied to the point that we can prove exactly what it does and doesn't do. If you're convinced it's working for you, then great. That feeling of "Something is making me feel better" is powerful in its own right. Just know that anything labeled "Supplement" has no proof of whatever claim it makes. If there were any proof, it wouldn't need to be labeled as a supplement. And remember that supplements themselves are the least efficient way to introduce those ingredients into your body. Supplements generally are drastically less effective than ingesting actual foods containing those ingredients. Taking a Vitamin C pill is infinitely less effective than eating a couple oranges, etc. Whenever possible, go for the source of whatever ingredient you're wanting.

Here's a very handy graph, showing where the majority of supplements stack up. Note the "Worth it" line. Essentially everything under that isn't worth the money spent on the product. This graphic is dynamically updated and pulls info from the giant table of documentation at the link at the bottom of this post.

Unfortunately, the 3 ingredients in ZMA aren't even over the "Worth it" line.

http://imageshack.us/a/img4/6811/snakeoilsupplements956b.png

And here's the link with all the information used to construct this: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aqe2P9sYhZ2ndFRKaU1FaWVvOEJiV2NwZ0JHck12X1E&hl=en_GB#gid=0

That includes links to case studies and actual scientific information from sources that are not trying to sell you what they're recommending.

Bump
10-25-2012, 01:49 PM
when you wake up, make sure to take your 5 hour energy, every day. Just like the commercials say.

Brock
10-25-2012, 01:56 PM
That includes links to case studies and actual scientific information from sources that are not trying to sell you what they're recommending.

They have creatine listed as a "cognition" supplement.

???

loochy
10-25-2012, 02:03 PM
This thread could use some Science.....

First off... most of the "Supplements" available do not do what you think they do. Supplements by and large are simply snake oil meant to take your money while giving you the psychologically pleasing feeling of helping yourself. There are some things for sure that actually have affects on your body that make it worth it, as you'll see from the graphic below.

I know there will be many posts saying BS, it worked for me and this guy I know. But generally all these ingredients have been studied to the point that we can prove exactly what it does and doesn't do. If you're convinced it's working for you, then great. That feeling of "Something is making me feel better" is powerful in its own right. Just know that anything labeled "Supplement" has no proof of whatever claim it makes. If there were any proof, it wouldn't need to be labeled as a supplement. And remember that supplements themselves are the least efficient way to introduce those ingredients into your body. Supplements generally are drastically less effective than ingesting actual foods containing those ingredients. Taking a Vitamin C pill is infinitely less effective than eating a couple oranges, etc. Whenever possible, go for the source of whatever ingredient you're wanting.

Here's a very handy graph, showing where the majority of supplements stack up. Note the "Worth it" line. Essentially everything under that isn't worth the money spent on the product. This graphic is dynamically updated and pulls info from the giant table of documentation at the link at the bottom of this post.

Unfortunately, the 3 ingredients in ZMA aren't even over the "Worth it" line.

http://imageshack.us/a/img4/6811/snakeoilsupplements956b.png

And here's the link with all the information used to construct this: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aqe2P9sYhZ2ndFRKaU1FaWVvOEJiV2NwZ0JHck12X1E&hl=en_GB#gid=0

That includes links to case studies and actual scientific information from sources that are not trying to sell you what they're recommending.

Yeah, because you don't need vitamins? :rolleyes: wtf

Fish
10-25-2012, 02:11 PM
They have creatine listed as a "cognition" supplement.

???

There's lots of misinformation on Creatine. It's generally sold for athletic and endurance purposes, but actually there's less proof of that effect than all the other researched uses for Creatine.

Creatine is thought to improve strength, increase lean muscle mass, and help the muscles recover more quickly during exercise. This muscular boost may help athletes achieve bursts of speed and energy, especially during short bouts of high-intensity activities such as weight lifting or sprinting. However, scientific research on creatine has been mixed. Although some studies have found that it does help improve performance during short periods of athletic activity, there is no evidence that creatine helps with endurance sports. Research also shows that not everyone's muscles respond to creatine; some people who use it see no benefit.

Despite the popularity of creatine among young people, there has been very little research conducted in children under age 18. Of those studies, a few have suggested a positive effect but the overall evidence is inconclusive.

Just because creatine is natural, doesn't necessarily mean that it is safe. Supplements aren't held to the same standards by the FDA as medications, which means you can't always know exactly what's in your supplement, or in what amounts.

Researchers still don't know the long-term effects of taking creatine supplements, especially in young people. Adolescents who take creatine often do so without their doctor's advice, which can cause them to take more than the recommended dose.

Although most healthy people can take it with no problem, creatine can, in rare cases, have adverse effects, particularly when used in excess. Side effects can include:

Weight gain
Anxiety
Breathing difficulty
Diarrhea
Fatigue
Fever
Headache
Kidney problems
Nausea, vomiting
Rash
Stomach upset

Certain drugs, including diabetes medications, acetaminophen, and diuretics, can have dangerous interactions with creatine. Taking the stimulants caffeine and ephedra with creatine can increase the risk of side effects.

http://men.webmd.com/creatine

Fish
10-25-2012, 02:14 PM
Yeah, because you don't need vitamins? :rolleyes: wtf

Who said you don't need vitamins?

You don't need vitamin supplements. You certainly need vitamins. And you get them from the foods you eat. Vitamin supplements are completely unnecessary for the most part.

vailpass
10-25-2012, 02:26 PM
Sleep is overrated for recovery. Food quantity/quality is much more important. I don't think I've had more than 5hr sleep/night since my daughter was born 9 months ago, and I still hit PR's. Shit I had 2 hours sleep last week and drove upstate with a buddy for a meet and still hit a 1200 total.

Huh?

Brock
10-25-2012, 02:30 PM
There's lots of misinformation on Creatine. It's generally sold for athletic and endurance purposes, but actually there's less proof of that effect than all the other researched uses for Creatine.


Uh...leaving aside my own experience with creatine, there is a metric ton of study that shows a very definite benefit to athletic performance. For distance runners? I don't know. For building lean muscle mass? Absolutely. Without question.

Buck
10-25-2012, 02:30 PM
This thread could use some Science.....

First off... most of the "Supplements" available do not do what you think they do. Supplements by and large are simply snake oil meant to take your money while giving you the psychologically pleasing feeling of helping yourself. There are some things for sure that actually have affects on your body that make it worth it, as you'll see from the graphic below.

I know there will be many posts saying BS, it worked for me and this guy I know. But generally all these ingredients have been studied to the point that we can prove exactly what it does and doesn't do. If you're convinced it's working for you, then great. That feeling of "Something is making me feel better" is powerful in its own right. Just know that anything labeled "Supplement" has no proof of whatever claim it makes. If there were any proof, it wouldn't need to be labeled as a supplement. And remember that supplements themselves are the least efficient way to introduce those ingredients into your body. Supplements generally are drastically less effective than ingesting actual foods containing those ingredients. Taking a Vitamin C pill is infinitely less effective than eating a couple oranges, etc. Whenever possible, go for the source of whatever ingredient you're wanting.

Here's a very handy graph, showing where the majority of supplements stack up. Note the "Worth it" line. Essentially everything under that isn't worth the money spent on the product. This graphic is dynamically updated and pulls info from the giant table of documentation at the link at the bottom of this post.

Unfortunately, the 3 ingredients in ZMA aren't even over the "Worth it" line.

http://imageshack.us/a/img4/6811/snakeoilsupplements956b.png

And here's the link with all the information used to construct this: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aqe2P9sYhZ2ndFRKaU1FaWVvOEJiV2NwZ0JHck12X1E&hl=en_GB#gid=0

That includes links to case studies and actual scientific information from sources that are not trying to sell you what they're recommending.

Yes. This used select studies to create the chart. I'm sure you could create a chart with everything flipped if you found the right studies.

First hand though, ZMA has made me feel better than pretty much any other supplement. That's pretty much all I can go off of.

You probably don't even like trains.

FAX
10-25-2012, 02:31 PM
I don't see why anybody would want to eat tar.

FAX

TheGuardian
10-25-2012, 02:32 PM
This thread could use some Science.....

First off... most of the "Supplements" available do not do what you think they do. Supplements by and large are simply snake oil meant to take your money while giving you the psychologically pleasing feeling of helping yourself. There are some things for sure that actually have affects on your body that make it worth it, as you'll see from the graphic below.

I know there will be many posts saying BS, it worked for me and this guy I know. But generally all these ingredients have been studied to the point that we can prove exactly what it does and doesn't do. If you're convinced it's working for you, then great. That feeling of "Something is making me feel better" is powerful in its own right. Just know that anything labeled "Supplement" has no proof of whatever claim it makes. If there were any proof, it wouldn't need to be labeled as a supplement. And remember that supplements themselves are the least efficient way to introduce those ingredients into your body. Supplements generally are drastically less effective than ingesting actual foods containing those ingredients. Taking a Vitamin C pill is infinitely less effective than eating a couple oranges, etc. Whenever possible, go for the source of whatever ingredient you're wanting.

Here's a very handy graph, showing where the majority of supplements stack up. Note the "Worth it" line. Essentially everything under that isn't worth the money spent on the product. This graphic is dynamically updated and pulls info from the giant table of documentation at the link at the bottom of this post.

Unfortunately, the 3 ingredients in ZMA aren't even over the "Worth it" line.

http://imageshack.us/a/img4/6811/snakeoilsupplements956b.png

And here's the link with all the information used to construct this: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aqe2P9sYhZ2ndFRKaU1FaWVvOEJiV2NwZ0JHck12X1E&hl=en_GB#gid=0

That includes links to case studies and actual scientific information from sources that are not trying to sell you what they're recommending.

I already provided a link that had studies done as well that proved a supplement like zinc does have helpful benefits.

And this from a guy that doesn't take supplements or believe in them for the most part.

BigCatDaddy
10-25-2012, 02:41 PM
It depends on what what you are using them for. Here is a study showing Vitamin A > Steroids in kids that are short and late puberty bloomers. He said Vit A is basically worthless.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15163330

Vitamin A and iron supplementation is as efficient as hormonal therapy in constitutionally delayed children.
Zadik Z, Sinai T, Zung A, Reifen R.
SourcePediatric Endocrine Unit, Kaplan Medical Center, Rehovot, Israel. zvivadik@012.net.il

Abstract
OBJECTIVE: To assess the effect of nutritional supplementation on growth and puberty in constitutionally delayed children.

PATIENTS: One hundred and two boys, 13.6-15.5 years of age, who were referred because of short stature and delayed puberty.

METHODS: The boys were randomly allocated to one of the following treatment groups: oxandrolone therapy, 5 mg/day for 6 months (n = 15), testosterone depot, 100 mg monthly for 3 months (n = 15) or for 6 months (n = 20), nutritional programme (n = 17), oxandrolone and nutritional programme (n = 15) or passive observation (n = 20). Boys in the nutritional programmes received 12 mg/day iron and 6000 IU/week of vitamin A. Outcome measurements were of height, weight, pubertal signs, dietary intake, serum vitamin A, iron, GH and IGF-1.

RESULTS: Six months of vitamin A supplementation induced growth acceleration similar to that seen in the oxandrolone- and testosterone-treated children, and significantly greater than in the observation group (9.3 +/- 2.9 vs. 4.0 +/- 0.9 crn/yr, P < 0.001). Whereas in the vitamin A-supplemented group, puberty (increase in testicular volume >/= 12 ml) was induced within 12 months. In all testosterone-treated patients, pubic hair was noted within 3 months and a testicular volume of >/= 12 ml was observed 9-12 months after the initiation of therapy. No pubertal signs were noted in the observation group during this time.

CONCLUSIONS: Subnormal vitamin A intake is one of the aetiological factors in delayed pubertal maturation. Supplementation of both vitamin A and iron to normal constitutionally delayed children with subnormal vitamin A intake is as efficacious as hormonal therapy in the induction of growth and puberty.

saphojunkie
10-25-2012, 02:48 PM
Zima puts you to sleep. After, like, 12 of them.

Count Zarth
10-25-2012, 02:50 PM
Also increases the size of your loads.

big nasty kcnut
10-25-2012, 02:52 PM
Ever had a dream about a girl giving you a bj and waking up and felt like she did it. I had a dream like that one night.

Fish
10-25-2012, 02:56 PM
I already provided a link that had studies done as well that proved a supplement like zinc does have helpful benefits.

And this from a guy that doesn't take supplements or believe in them for the most part.

You must not have looked at the studies then....

http://www.charlespoliquin.com/Blog/tabid/130/EntryId/596/Tip-151-Take-Zinc-and-Increase-Testosterone-Levels-at-Rest-and-After-Training-Don-t-Miss-Out-on-Gains-Because-You-are-Nutritionally-Deficient.aspx

The link you posted references 2 studies.

Here's the first:


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21744023

Abstract
Zinc and selenium are essential minerals and have roles for more than 300 metabolic reactions in the body. The purpose of this study was to investigate how exhaustive exercise affects testosterone levels and plasma lactate in cyclists who were supplemented with oral zinc and selenium for 4 weeks. For this reason, 32 male road cyclists were selected equally to four groups: PL group, placebo; Zn group, zinc supplement (30 mg/day); Se group, selenium supplement (200 μg/day); and Zn-Se group, zinc-selenium supplement. After treatment, free, total testosterone, and lactate levels of subjects were determined before and after exhaustive exercise. Resting total, free testosterone, and lactate levels did not differ significantly between groups, and were increased by exercise (P > 0.05). Serum total testosterone levels in Zn group were higher than in Se group after exercise (P < 0.05). Serum-free testosterone levels in the Zn group were higher than the other groups (P < 0.05).There was an insignificant difference between levels of lactate in the four groups after exercise (P > 0.05). The results showed that 4-week simultaneous and separately zinc and selenium supplementation had no significant effect on resting testosterone and lactate levels of subjects who consume a zinc and selenium sufficient diet. It might be possible that the effect of zinc supplementation on free testosterone depends on exercise.

So... for one, the study group only contained 32 people. And the results showed that simply taking Zinc and Selenium supplements had no significant effect. They attributed the differences to exercise, and not Zinc. And even so, the differences are so small that it's not really very conclusive.

It essentially says that taking the supplements by themselves had zero effect. And taking the supplements while exercising had a very small effect, but it might be simply because of the exercise.

The second study:


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21671089

Abstract
Testosterone deficiency is associated with late-onset hypogonadism. Micronutrients including copper (Cu) and zinc (Zn) influence testosterone synthesis. The association between micronutrient concentrations in hair tissue and serum testosterone was studied in Korean men. The subjects were 88 men 40-60 years of age who visited the health promotion center and an outpatient clinic of family medicine at a university hospital from March 2006 to February 2008. Population sociological features of the subjects were acquired by self-administered surveys and interview, height and weight were measured, serum total testosterone was determined in the morning, and Cu and Zn were quantified from hair tissue collected in the morning. Subjects with normal testosterone group had a significantly higher Zn level compared to low testosterone group (P = 0.003). Significant negative correlations were evident between total testosterone and Cu level (r = -0.252, P = 0.022), and the Cu/Zn ratio (r = -0.288, P = 0.008). Normal testosterone is associated with a higher Zn level. Decreased serum testosterone is significantly associated with a high level of Cu and elevated Cu/Zn ratio in hair tissue.

This study is investigating hypogonadism in Korean men aged 40-60. Hypogonadism is a lack of hormones. Specifically in this case, testosterone. It's a little baffling as to how this study could be referenced to support Zinc intake affecting testosterone. All this study shows is that when testosterone levels are low, so are Zinc levels. It doesn't show that Zinc increases testosterone at all. It only describes the inverse relationship. When testosterone levels drop, so do Zinc levels. That's doesn't do any good in proving the opposite though.

This happens a lot. People will reference some silly study, and not bother to actually apply what the study says to the statement they're making.

Fish
10-25-2012, 03:07 PM
Yes. This used select studies to create the chart. I'm sure you could create a chart with everything flipped if you found the right studies.

First hand though, ZMA has made me feel better than pretty much any other supplement. That's pretty much all I can go off of.

You probably don't even like trains.

No, for the most part this uses studies from NCBI, The National Center for Biotechnology Information, and NLM the US National Library of Medicine. Which I believe is the most unbiased and truthful sources possible for this kind of info.

Fuck trains.

Buck
10-25-2012, 03:13 PM
Choo choo motherfucker.

seclark
10-25-2012, 03:13 PM
Ever had a dream about a girl giving you a bj and waking up and felt like she did it. I had a dream like that one night.

that's called a "wet dream" nut. i don't think you need suppliments for that. just puberty.
sec

TheGuardian
10-25-2012, 03:17 PM
It essentially says that taking the supplements by themselves had zero effect. And taking the supplements while exercising had a very small effect, but it might be simply because of the exercise.



Actually it reads......

"It might be possible that the effect of zinc supplementation on free testosterone depends on exercise."

SO it might be, or it might not be.




This study is investigating hypogonadism in Korean men aged 40-60. Hypogonadism is a lack of hormones. Specifically in this case, testosterone. It's a little baffling as to how this study could be referenced to support Zinc intake affecting testosterone. All this study shows is that when testosterone levels are low, so are Zinc levels. It doesn't show that Zinc increases testosterone at all. It only describes the inverse relationship. When testosterone levels drop, so do Zinc levels. That's doesn't do any good in proving the opposite though.

This happens a lot. People will reference some silly study, and not bother to actually apply what the study says to the statement they're making.


Apparently you didn't want to quote that study.

Here you go.....

Subjects with normal testosterone group had a significantly higher Zn level compared to low testosterone group.

Normal testosterone is associated with a higher Zn level. Decreased serum testosterone is significantly associated with a high level of Cu and elevated Cu/Zn ratio in hair tissue.


Which is what I have said all along. If you are low in zinc you might also be low in natural test, or vice versa. So yeah, I'm right.

loochy
10-25-2012, 03:24 PM
that's called a "wet dream" nut. i don't think you need suppliments for that. just puberty.
sec

ROFL

Fish
10-25-2012, 03:34 PM
Actually it reads......

"It might be possible that the effect of zinc supplementation on free testosterone depends on exercise."

SO it might be, or it might not be.





Apparently you didn't want to quote that study.

Here you go.....



Which is what I have said all along. If you are low in zinc you might also be low in natural test, or vice versa. So yeah, I'm right.

Might be. Might not be.... OK, but that's not really conclusive is it?

And you are confusing the direction of correlation in the second study. It's saying that normal testosterone is associated with higher Zinc levels. Which is true. The title of the link you posted reads: "Tip 151: Take Zinc and Increase Testosterone Levels..." But that's not what the second study shows at all. The study researched how testosterone levels affected Cu and Zn levels, not how Zn and Cu levels affect testosterone. The difference and direction is important. And besides that, testing Cu and Zn levels in the hair of testosterone deficient old Koreans isn't exactly the best test base for what we're talking about here.

BIG_DADDY
10-25-2012, 03:45 PM
I already provided a link that had studies done as well that proved a supplement like zinc does have helpful benefits.

And this from a guy that doesn't take supplements or believe in them for the most part.

Yea there is always a know it all that thinks they are the great scientific one. If you have problems sleeping and ZMA allows you to sleep better I think the benefits of a good nights sleep are well documented right down to your GH levels.

TheGuardian
10-25-2012, 03:45 PM
Might be. Might not be.... OK, but that's not really conclusive is it?

And you are confusing the direction of correlation in the second study. It's saying that normal testosterone is associated with higher Zinc levels. Which is true. The title of the link you posted reads: "Tip 151: Take Zinc and Increase Testosterone Levels..." But that's not what the second study shows at all. The study researched how testosterone levels affected Cu and Zn levels, not how Zn and Cu levels affect testosterone. The difference and direction is important. And besides that, testing Cu and Zn levels in the hair of testosterone deficient old Koreans isn't exactly the best test base for what we're talking about here.

Right.

And my original point I believe, was that if you were low in zinc you could also be low in test, or vice versa. Not that zinc would make you a superman in terms of test levels. But healthy levels of test are in fact related to zinc levels.

Fish
10-25-2012, 04:04 PM
Right.

And my original point I believe, was that if you were low in zinc you could also be low in test, or vice versa. Not that zinc would make you a superman in terms of test levels. But healthy levels of test are in fact related to zinc levels.

The source you used to make your point says in the title "Tip 151: Take Zinc and Increase Testosterone Levels at Rest..." Then it references a study which directly shows that Zinc will not raise testosterone at rest. It's misinformation, that's all. I agree that the levels are related in some ways. But that doesn't show that taking Zinc will raise Testosterone. Some people might read your link and think that to be the case.

Again, my only point was that the majority of people are wasting money on supplements because of the great deal of misinformation on the topic.

JoeyChuckles
10-25-2012, 04:10 PM
Ever had a dream about a girl giving you a bj and waking up and felt like she did it. I had a dream like that one night.

Thread over.

HMc
10-26-2012, 07:42 AM
Creatine is thought to improve strength, increase lean muscle mass, and help the muscles recover more quickly during exercise. This muscular boost may help athletes achieve bursts of speed and energy, especially during short bouts of high-intensity activities such as weight lifting or sprinting. However, scientific research on creatine has been mixed. Although some studies have found that it does help improve performance during short periods of athletic activity, there is no evidence that creatine helps with endurance sports.

Yeah I wouldn't take it to cure pancreatic cancer either, that doesn't mean the "scientific research has been mixed" any more than "there is no evidence that creatine helps with endurance sports" does.

People don't take it for endurance sports because it's useless for that. The science is in when it comes to short-bursts though, and it's conclusively beneficial. Saying it's of no use for endurance is about as relevant as pointing out that your car won't run on it or that EPO is useless for weightlifting.

I take Superpump Max pre-workout and it's much been much better for me than the coffee I was having before. Whether or not there's a placebo effect is academic to me.

On the topic of supplements though - just because something occurs naturally in our body or in our usual diet, doesn't mean we can't use more of that thing if we want to increase the demands on our body (by making it larger or whatever). If supplementing was entirely bunk in theory, supplementing testosterone with needles wouldn't work either. I mean, we already have test in our bodies, right?

FAX
10-26-2012, 08:02 AM
Ever had a dream about a girl giving you a bj and waking up and felt like she did it. I had a dream like that one night.

Sadly, there is no peer-reviewed science to support the claim that ZMA supplements will achieve that result, Mr. big nasty kcnut.

For those kind of dreams, you must supplement a girl's bank account.

FAX

BIG_DADDY
10-26-2012, 08:58 AM
Yeah I wouldn't take it to cure pancreatic cancer either, that doesn't mean the "scientific research has been mixed" any more than "there is no evidence that creatine helps with endurance sports" does.

People don't take it for endurance sports because it's useless for that. The science is in when it comes to short-bursts though, and it's conclusively beneficial. Saying it's of no use for endurance is about as relevant as pointing out that your car won't run on it or that EPO is useless for weightlifting.

I take Superpump Max pre-workout and it's much been much better for me than the coffee I was having before. Whether or not there's a placebo effect is academic to me.

On the topic of supplements though - just because something occurs naturally in our body or in our usual diet, doesn't mean we can't use more of that thing if we want to increase the demands on our body (by making it larger or whatever). If supplementing was entirely bunk in theory, supplementing testosterone with needles wouldn't work either. I mean, we already have test in our bodies, right?

What the people who claim to have science on their side don't realize is that the misinformation is on both sides. There is an interest in promoting and selling products and there is also an interest in discrediting everything right down to quality nutrition and supplementation especially in the US. The global scientific community releases all kinds of research that is almost impossible to find here unless you really want to spend a lot of your time doing your own due-diligence. Muscular Developement magazine used to have a section they printed monthly on that type of information but I have no idea if they still do as I am down to the very basics getting older. My supps are pretty simple at this point, Ubiquinol, krill, astaxanthin, folic acid, B, D3, C, NO and occasionally ZMA when I want to really sleep longer or are having problems. I pick up testosterone levels various ways as well. I don't need much more as my diet is pretty tight as this point and I preffer getting most of the nutrition I need from a quality diet. I went with getting my probiotics like that recently.

okoye35chiefs
10-26-2012, 09:04 AM
I've also read and heard positves and negatives on the product.

BIG_DADDY
10-26-2012, 09:07 AM
I've also read and heard positves and negatives on the product.

What negative? Sheesus I just need to move on.

BigCatDaddy
10-26-2012, 09:12 AM
What the people who claim to have science on their side don't realize is that the misinformation is on both sides. There is an interest in promoting and selling products and there is also an interest in discrediting everything right down to quality nutrition and supplementation especially in the US. The global scientific community releases all kinds of research that is almost impossible to find here unless you really want to spend a lot of your time doing your own due-diligence. Muscular Developement magazine used to have a section they printed monthly on that type of information but I have no idea if they still do as I am down to the very basics getting older. My supps are pretty simple at this point, Ubiquinol, krill, astaxanthin, folic acid, B, D3, C, NO and occasionally ZMA when I want to really sleep longer or are having problems. I pick up testosterone levels various ways as well. I don't need much more as my diet is pretty tight as this point and I preffer getting most of the nutrition I need from a quality diet. I went with getting my probiotics like that recently.

For sure. You need to be aware of who is doing these studys. A lot of times they are done by someone or paid for by someone with a dog in the fight.

BIG_DADDY
10-26-2012, 09:26 AM
For sure. You need to be aware of who is doing these studys. A lot of times they are done by someone or paid for by someone with a dog in the fight.

To show just how strong that element is all you have to do remember the Bush era where they were going after testosterone enhancement like it was the devil. What I predicted back then right on this very sight many times over was that they were going to shut down high quality small pharmaceutical companies like ergopharm so that big pharm could take it over. The demonizing of testosteron enhancement would go away and we would even start to open our own anti-aging clinics promoting the use of testosterone and HGH just like Europe has been doing for a very long time now. That's exactly what has happened yet their hasn't been one fuck face who was claiming science was on their side back then who has come forward and said "hey you know you were right", they have just moved onto the next subject with their self-riteous, pretentious BS.

Fish
10-26-2012, 10:13 AM
Yeah I wouldn't take it to cure pancreatic cancer either, that doesn't mean the "scientific research has been mixed" any more than "there is no evidence that creatine helps with endurance sports" does.

People don't take it for endurance sports because it's useless for that. The science is in when it comes to short-bursts though, and it's conclusively beneficial. Saying it's of no use for endurance is about as relevant as pointing out that your car won't run on it or that EPO is useless for weightlifting.

I take Superpump Max pre-workout and it's much been much better for me than the coffee I was having before. Whether or not there's a placebo effect is academic to me.

On the topic of supplements though - just because something occurs naturally in our body or in our usual diet, doesn't mean we can't use more of that thing if we want to increase the demands on our body (by making it larger or whatever). If supplementing was entirely bunk in theory, supplementing testosterone with needles wouldn't work either. I mean, we already have test in our bodies, right?

That's fine. You think it works for you, and don't care about any placebo effect. That makes your position pretty clear.

And it's ironic that you bring up testosterone supplements. That's one of the worst categories of misinformed supplements. At least you clarified it as supplementing with needles. That's at least slightly effective compared to the pill format. Still it's not really worth it for the majority of people. For people with abnormally low testosterone due to a medical condition, yes there is definitely a benefit. But it's by and large misrepresented for marketing purposes to people who don't need it. It might help you gain some lean body mass when accompanied by a strict workout schedule. Maybe a little.

I think this article explains it pretty well. The author, a personal trainer and editor for many fitness and nutrition magazines, even issues a challenge to anyone regarding the effectiveness of T supplementation:


The Facts On Testosterone Boosting Supplements

Testosterone Boosting Supplements – The Facts

“Testosterone boosting” supplements/formulas have become a very popular category in the supplement industry of late. It seems everyone, boy or man, seems to want to “boost” their levels of the hormone that makes men men. Don’t get me wrong, I am a big fan of this hormone, and readers can see that via my other writings on the topic found throughout this web site. Everyone, men and women, can potentially benefit from maintaining optimal levels of this essential hormone.

However, this write up is not going to cover the hormone per se, but to discuss the various over-the-counter (OTC) products/formulas claiming to increase it. As there are literally hundreds, perhaps thousands, of products/formulas on the market at this point, all claiming to “boost” this important hormone, I am going to be talking in generalities about these products vs. a specific ingredient or formula.

A few ingredients in these formulas have been shown – via dubious “research” at best – to have a small impact on T, with the majority of them either having no research behind them or research that found they did nada for T levels.

To summarize this supplement category, the T booster supplements generally contain ingredients that:

• Have no data behind them – or -
• The data they do have is of very poor quality/ and/or taken out of context/not applicable – or -
• The doses used in the formula are far below what a study used to get the effect.

Obviously, the above can (and does!) apply to many products/formulas in the sports nutrition industry, but I find the “T boosters” worse then other categories in that respect.

OK, so lets give some T booster product the benefit of the doubt and say it does have some effects on T. That brings up a few important issues to consider.

Physiological Threshold Concepts

Here’s a simple thought experiment: If you take a small amount of testosterone, say 25mg per week of T- propionate•, will your testosterone levels go up slightly for a short time? Yes. Will your muscle mass increase and or your strength increase? Nope. Anyone who has ever taken any T – or knows the first thing about the topic – knows there’s a threshold dose at which one actually experiences changes in body composition and or strength.

The point being, it’s one thing to show formula/ingredient X has had some small impact on serum testosterone (and most have not…), quite another to show that change actually had any effects on body composition or other end points people using such products generally care about, such as increases in strength and muscle mass.

As with any hormone, there’s a physiological threshold that has to be met before it actually impacts muscle mass, strength, etc.

Anyone who has ever used T in the form of cypionate or enanthate (both long acting esters of T) knows that changes in body composition generally start at around 200mg per week at the least, with more being the norm.

The above assumes a person with “normal” testosterone levels vs. HRT/TRT therapy for those who are found to be medically low in T.••

So, with all that, do you really think that T booster supplement you are using – which already tends to lack any solid data to begin with – is really going to be the equivalent of 200mg per week of testosterone Cypionate? If so, I got a bridge in Brooklyn to sell ya’…Hell, the sound of exotic sports cars can raise T levels. Do you think listening to the sound of a Maserati, Lamborghini and Ferrari before you hit the gym will result in more muscle mass? Me neither….Which brings us to the next section in expectation of the obvious question: how does one know if the T booster he’s using is having any effects on the production of T?•••

Do you put air in your tires without checking the pressure?

Do you put air in your tires without actually checking to see if you need any air or what the air pressure actually is before you add additional air to the tires? I know I don’t, but that’s exactly what you’re doing (assuming said T booster actually has any effects on T…) by using such a product without actually knowing what your T levels were when you started. Altering your T levels is not a minor undertaking, nor should it be done casually, and it can have long term effects, both positive and negative. As I indicated – and we will get more into depth on the topic shortly – I have no faith these products are actually impacting T either at all, or enough to actually cause any changes in body composition (e.g., increases in LBM and or decreases in BF) or strength anyway; but having no idea where you are starting from and if the product is doing anything, is just about as dumb as it gets.

I was going to say something more polite and PC like “it’s not logical” but screw that, it’s just stupid, not to mention a big waste of money in the long run.

If you want to go the Bro Logic/Bro Science/hopeful thinking/placebo-driven route, it’s your money, I guess. I know, I know, you’re that one person who is immune to placebo effects…

Interesting side note – and something I will blog about in the near future, is the fact that placebos are getting stronger! It’s vexing the pharmaceutical industry as we speak, in fact.

A very quick word on Non-T mediated Effects.

This article is looking at two specific issues as it relates to the T booster products:

• The impact on T levels specifically
• That people are using them in an attempt to alter body composition and or increase strength

I am not looking at other potential uses, such as for libido and such, which may happen by what’s called “non-T mediated” effects. Meaning, they have an effect, but not via testosterone per se. For example, Horny goat weed contains biologically active compounds that may have Viagra-like effects that act via PDE 5 inhibition. There are other active compounds found in various herbs and such that show some promise in the areas of libido and others, but they are often not doing their “thing” via testosterone, and even if they are, that does not mean the effects it’s having on testosterone – be it to lower SHBGs, increase free T, or what have you – is adequate to impact body composition and or strength. And, as mentioned previously, many of these compounds are very dose specific, which may or may not exist in that dose in the product/formula in question. Finally, no place is the placebo effect stronger then is the area of libido, but we won’t go there…

An Open Offer….

I have made this offer via email (after being contacted by various manufacturers of some T boosting product usually asking why I’m being so hard on this category of supplements), and on various forums and such, but will put it out there for all to see:

To any seller/manufacturer of a “T Booster” type product/formula. If you wish to have the product tested to see if it truly does increase T levels, I will be all too happy to have it tested for you. Be it, a true double-blind placebo crossover trial, which could also test whether or not the product in question will alter body composition (in response to resistance training of course), or as a simple open label study.

http://www.brinkzone.com/articles/the-facts-on-testosterone-boosting-supplements/

Here's another from NCBI:

Effect of testosterone supplementation on functional mobility, cognition, and other parameters in older men: a randomized controlled trial.
Emmelot-Vonk MH, Verhaar HJ, Nakhai Pour HR, Aleman A, Lock TM, Bosch JL, Grobbee DE, van der Schouw YT.
Source
Department of Geriatric Medicine, University Medical Center Utrecht, Utrecht, The Netherlands. m.h.emmelotvonk@umcutrecht.nl
Erratum in
JAMA. 2008 Feb 13;299(6):634.
Abstract
CONTEXT:
Serum testosterone levels decline significantly with aging. Testosterone supplementation to older men might beneficially affect the aging processes.

OBJECTIVE:
To investigate the effect of testosterone supplementation on functional mobility, cognitive function, bone mineral density, body composition, plasma lipids, quality of life, and safety parameters in older men with low normal testosterone levels.

DESIGN, SETTING, AND PARTICIPANTS:
Double-blind, randomized, placebo-controlled trial of 237 healthy men between the ages of 60 and 80 years with a testosterone level lower than 13.7 nmol/L conducted from January 2004 to April 2005 at a university medical center in the Netherlands.

INTERVENTION:
Participants were randomly assigned to receive 80 mg of testosterone undecenoate or a matching placebo twice daily for 6 months.

MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES:
Functional mobility (Stanford Health Assessment Questionnaire, timed get up and go test, isometric handgrip strength, isometric leg extensor strength), cognitive function (8 different cognitive instruments), bone mineral density of the hip and lumbar spine (dual-energy x-ray absorptiometry scanning), body composition (total body dual-energy x-ray absorptiometry and abdominal ultrasound of fat mass), metabolic risk factors (fasting plasma lipids, glucose, and insulin), quality of life (Short-Form Health 36 Survey and the Questions on Life Satisfaction Modules), and safety parameters (serum prostate-specific antigen level, ultrasonographic prostate volume, International Prostate Symptom score, serum levels of creatinine, aspartate aminotransferase, alanine aminotransferase, gamma-glutamyltransferase, hemoglobin, and hematocrit).
RESULTS:
A total of 207 men completed the study. During the study, lean body mass increased and fat mass decreased in the testosterone group compared with the placebo group but these factors were not accompanied by an increase of functional mobility or muscle strength. Cognitive function and bone mineral density did not change. Insulin sensitivity improved but high-density lipoprotein cholesterol decreased; by the end of the study, 47.8% in the testosterone group vs 35.5% in the placebo group had the metabolic syndrome (P = .07). Quality-of-life measures were no different except for one hormone-related quality-of-life measure that improved. No negative effects on prostate safety were detected.

CONCLUSION:
Testosterone supplementation during 6 months to older men with a low normal testosterone concentration did not affect functional status or cognition but increased lean body mass and had mixed metabolic effects.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18167405

Another based on a study from JAMA:

Testosterone levels in men drop as age increases. This has led to a recent increase in doctors prescribing "testosterone therapy" to counter the effects of aging. Well finally, research has been done to determine if these effects are true or just another hyped-up (and expensive) anti aging "cure."
Testosterone and Aging Research

The study, published in the prestigious medical journal JAMA, enrolled 237 healthy men aged 60 to 80. All men had a testosterone level below 13.7 nmol/L. The men were randomly assigned to be either in a group that received a twice daily oral 80 mg testosterone supplement or a placebo. The researchers measured hand strength, time to stand/sit, cognitive functioning (how well your brain is working), bone density, body composition, cholesterol, insulin, quality of life and other factors.

The results showed that the group who took the testosterone did not improve (compared to the placebo group) in mobility, strength or quality of life. This group also tended to have a higher rate of metabolic syndrome after 6 months. The group taking the supplement did have increased lean body mass and reduced fat in the body after 6 months taking the supplement.

So Is Testosterone Supplementation as Anti Aging Disproven?

Somewhat. Supporters (and manufacturers) of testosterone supplements will argue that the study period was too short and that the type of supplement (oral) was not as effective as other forms (injection). But right now the evidence shows that testosterone supplementation is not a catch-all anti aging solution. It is certain that men with unnaturally low testosterone can benefit from supplementation. But remember, levels of testosterone naturally decline with aging. Right now, avoid testosterone supplementation unless you have a diagnosed deficiency.

http://longevity.about.com/od/researchandmedicine/a/testosterone_re.htm

Another:

In a pilot study using men between the ages of twenty and twenty-five, supplemental DHEA did not increase testosterone levels but did appear to help decrease body fat and increase lean body mass. However, when this study was duplicated, no significant changes in body composition were observed.

Conversely, in another study, an increase in androgen levels was reported in postmenopausal women given supplemental DHEA, as was an increase in body-hair growth during the study period. Another study, this one using both men and women, did not report any significant changes in lean body mass or body fat but did report an overall improvement in the feeling of well-being.

[...]

Major studies with athletes taking DHEA supplements have not yet been reported. However, a small study with young weight lifting men (average age 23 years old), taking 50 mg of DHEA per day, did not report any improvements in strength and lean body mass when compared to the placebo group. Going by the results of the studies just mentioned, and other studies, medically unsupervised DHEA use by young male athletes probably won’t increase testosterone levels significantly enough for stimulating benefits greater then those experienced by natural testosterone production. However, careful use by female athletes and male athletes over age forty may cause some beneficial physical and physiological effects.

Androstenedione has an equally dubious origin as it applies to sports nutrition. You will commonly encounter reference to a study conducted by V. B. Mahesh and R. B. Greenblatt used by Andro supplement companies to substantiate that Andro supplements are effective at boosting testosterone levels and promoting larger muscles and strength. You may be surprised to learn that the 1962 Mahesh study used only 4 nonathletic women. Furthermore the results of the study were based on one dose of either 100 mg of DHEA taken by two of the women or 100 mg of androstenedione taken by the other two women, lasting only several hours. Based on blood samples taken shortly after ingesting the DHEA and Andro supplements, both DHEA and Andro caused a temporary rise in the women’s serum testosterone levels with Andro causing about double the rise in testosterone. Amazingly, during the 1990′s, tales of this one day research study on two women taking Andro prompted androstenedione being marketed as a muscle-building supplement for male athletes, while no real proof existed that males would benefit from taking Andro. You will commonly encounter this scientific reference used in promotional literature as substantiation of Andro supplements (Mahesh, V.B. and R. B. Greenblatt. “The In Vivo Conversion of Dehydroepiandrosterone and Androstenedione to Testosterone in the Human.” Acta Endocrinology, Vol. 41 (1962), pp. 400-406.) You now know that the study substantiates nothing as far as sports nutrition is concerned. Some Andro studies later conducted using males did not show a significant rise in testosterone levels or significant improvements in muscle size or strength.

While millions of andro tablets are consumed per day by iron pumping athletes, recent research adds to the disappointing news of previous studies. For example, a recent study looked at the effects of an androstenedione complex formula had on weight lifting males. The complex formula contained a daily dosage of 300 mg of androstenedione, plus, 150 mg of DHEA, 750 mg of Tribulus terrestris, 625 mg of chrysin, 300 mg of indole-3-carbinol, and 540 mg of Saw palmetto. Blood levels of androstenedione concentrations did increase in the supplement taking group when compared to the placebo group. During the 8 week study period, muscle strength was increased in both the groups, but the differences were not significant. The researchers also observed the use of the androstenedione complex formula did not result in increased serum testosterone concentrations. The increased production of estrogen caused by the androstenedione supplement was not reduced by the addition of chrysin. All told, the andro supplement did not cause additional benefits to resistance-training young adults.

I always advocate having people spend their money on healthy foods & sports supplements that result in naturally boosting testosterone levels and function before turning to prohormones, as well as following a healthy lifestyle. In fact, the most recent research confirms that the simple act of living a healthy lifestyle, consisting of regular exercise and good nutrition, is the best way to maximize testosterone levels. While it is well known that strength training increases testosterone levels, a recent study reported that in middle aged men, being in good health was associated with highest testosterone levels. Good health was defined as the absence of chronic illness, prescription medication, obesity, or excessive drinking of alcoholic beverages.

http://www.protraineronline.com/nutrition/supplements-for-boosting-testosterone-levels-yea-or-nay/

okoye35chiefs
10-26-2012, 10:14 AM
spam

Fish
10-26-2012, 10:19 AM
What the people who claim to have science on their side don't realize is that the misinformation is on both sides. There is an interest in promoting and selling products and there is also an interest in discrediting everything right down to quality nutrition and supplementation especially in the US. The global scientific community releases all kinds of research that is almost impossible to find here unless you really want to spend a lot of your time doing your own due-diligence. Muscular Developement magazine used to have a section they printed monthly on that type of information but I have no idea if they still do as I am down to the very basics getting older. My supps are pretty simple at this point, Ubiquinol, krill, astaxanthin, folic acid, B, D3, C, NO and occasionally ZMA when I want to really sleep longer or are having problems. I pick up testosterone levels various ways as well. I don't need much more as my diet is pretty tight as this point and I preffer getting most of the nutrition I need from a quality diet. I went with getting my probiotics like that recently.

You're welcome to post your own examples of this misinformation. I'd love to see some of these scientific studies disproving the ones I've posted. Everybody keeps talking about the differing studies and and how they're all biased. But I'm not seeing many scientific studies supporting what you're claiming.

You're taking 8+ supplements, according to your post. Surely you have some proof of what they do other than personal feeling.

BigCatDaddy
10-26-2012, 10:25 AM
That's fine. You think it works for you, and don't care about any placebo effect. That makes your position pretty clear.

And it's ironic that you bring up testosterone supplements. That's one of the worst categories of misinformed supplements. At least you clarified it as supplementing with needles. That's at least slightly effective compared to the pill format. Still it's not really worth it for the majority of people. For people with abnormally low testosterone due to a medical condition, yes there is definitely a benefit. But it's by and large misrepresented for marketing purposes to people who don't need it. It might help you gain some lean body mass when accompanied by a strict workout schedule. Maybe a little.

I think this article explains it pretty well. The author, a personal trainer and editor for many fitness and nutrition magazines, even issues a challenge to anyone regarding the effectiveness of T supplementation:



Here's another from NCBI:



Another based on a study from JAMA:



Another:


Not sure what you are getting, but I'll make it simple. There are very few OTC test boosters that actually increase Total T levels. 6-OXO and D-Aspartic Acid are a few. At the levels of increase you probably aren't going to see much difference. Maybe a little more energy and sex drive.


Injectable Test obviously will do many things including sex drive, strength, energy and muscle mass.

The probably with T evaluations is today's numbers are skewed a bit. In the 40's the avg T level was around 700, today we are seeing closer to 400. Probably do to a polluted food and water supply. So today's average would have been pretty low many years ago.

BIG_DADDY
10-26-2012, 11:18 AM
You're welcome to post your own examples of this misinformation. I'd love to see some of these scientific studies disproving the ones I've posted. Everybody keeps talking about the differing studies and and how they're all biased. But I'm not seeing many scientific studies supporting what you're claiming.

You're taking 8+ supplements, according to your post. Surely you have some proof of what they do other than personal feeling.

You bet, I have done a ton of research over the years and have met with doctors I highly respect to take what I do. The research behind the benefits of ubiquinol alone on a cellular level are well documented. You can wiki it you want to scratch the surface but I am not going to go back and try to dig up every bit of documentation I have ever come across over the decades to validate each supp I take. Even that goofy chart posted earlier has most of what I take at the very top. If you don't already know the well documented benefits of what I take then you're friggen retarded to begin with and it doesn't matter what you try and find to validate a contrarian position.

Some of you may need to be a bit older but lets look back at the crock of shit we have been sold over the years by our scientific community.

Most of you won't remember the controvery around glandulars of testosterone boost over 30 years ago but we were told it was crap that didn't work. I guess additonal zits, size increases and aggression must have been the placebo effect.

How about the demonization C and much more recently D-3?

How about when our scientific community tried to outlaw all supplentation period without a prescription. Anybody remember that one from like 1996 or so. Yea they don't work and it's all a hoax but you can still get them through big pharm with a prescription from your doctor. What a fucking joke that was.

More recently their was the whole demonization of test and HGH wich has moved over to big money now as well. The scientific community was all behind that one.

BIG_DADDY
10-26-2012, 11:29 AM
That's fine. You think it works for you, and don't care about any placebo effect. That makes your position pretty clear.

And it's ironic that you bring up testosterone supplements. That's one of the worst categories of misinformed supplements. At least you clarified it as supplementing with needles. That's at least slightly effective compared to the pill format. Still it's not really worth it for the majority of people. For people with abnormally low testosterone due to a medical condition, yes there is definitely a benefit. But it's by and large misrepresented for marketing purposes to people who don't need it. It might help you gain some lean body mass when accompanied by a strict workout schedule. Maybe a little.

I think this article explains it pretty well. The author, a personal trainer and editor for many fitness and nutrition magazines, even issues a challenge to anyone regarding the effectiveness of T supplementation:



Here's another from NCBI:



Another based on a study from JAMA:



Another:

androstenedione doesn't work, interesting. You should forward this information to Mark McGwire.

King_Chief_Fan
10-26-2012, 11:33 AM
Does anyone else here take it? Its Zinc, Magnesium, and B6. I take it right before bed and I get the best sleep ever. Hell, I've even had control of my dreams.

Waking up is super easy and overall I feel more like a man. Check it out if you.haven't already.

all I know is that it made my crank 3.5 inches longer.

Had to quit taking it so I wouldn't end up tripping over it.

TheGuardian
10-26-2012, 11:39 AM
Actually, shoot enough test and your dick will get bigger. This was even verified by Jose Conseco's wife in his book and I dunno, about a billion other dudes on the planet that have run heavy cycles. Which is why I laugh when uneducated mental midgets say shit like "steroids shrink your dick!"

Actually, it's your balls. And you don't really need your balls if you don't plan on having kids anymore. So for those people it just means a bigger dong, stronger libido, more muscle mass and strength, and less bodyfat. So pretty much, it just makes you more awesome.

Fish
10-26-2012, 11:59 AM
You bet, I have done a ton of research over the years and have met with doctors I highly respect to take what I do. The research behind the benefits of ubiquinol alone on a cellular level are well documented. You can wiki it you want to scratch the surface but I am not going to go back and try to dig up every bit of documentation I have ever come across over the decades to validate each supp I take. Even that goofy chart posted earlier has most of what I take at the very top. If you don't already know the well documented benefits of what I take then you're friggen retarded to begin with and it doesn't matter what you try and find to validate a contrarian position.

Some of you may need to be a bit older but lets look back at the crock of shit we have been sold over the years by our scientific community.

Most of you won't remember the controvery around glandulars of testosterone boost over 30 years ago but we were told it was crap that didn't work. I guess additonal zits, size increases and aggression must have been the placebo effect.

How about the demonization C and much more recently D-3?

How about when our scientific community tried to outlaw all supplentation period without a prescription. Anybody remember that one from like 1996 or so. Yea they don't work and it's all a hoax but you can still get them through big pharm with a prescription from your doctor. What a fucking joke that was.

More recently their was the whole demonization of test and HGH wich has moved over to big money now as well. The scientific community was all behind that one.

Well, thanks for your response. I was hoping for something more than a personal opinion and an invitation to visit wiki. But I appreciate your honesty.

I don't really agree with your views on the scientific community and their role in supplements. There are very good reasons for outlawing all supplements. It's currently a giant unregulated misinformed mess of a market. And abolishing it has nothing to do with telling you want you can or can't put into your body. It's all about the snake oil manufacturers selling things as a cure all supplement with little to no evidence to support it. If it has the label "Supplement", there's no regulation on it, and the manufacturer can claim it makes your dick grow a foot, and they don't have to prove that it does. And many uninformed people out there will believe anything the label tells them. That's why supplements are treated with as much skepticism as they are. It's not some big scientific scandal at all.

BIG_DADDY
10-26-2012, 12:53 PM
Well, thanks for your response. I was hoping for something more than a personal opinion and an invitation to visit wiki. But I appreciate your honesty.

I don't really agree with your views on the scientific community and their role in supplements. There are very good reasons for outlawing all supplements. It's currently a giant unregulated misinformed mess of a market. And abolishing it has nothing to do with telling you want you can or can't put into your body. It's all about the snake oil manufacturers selling things as a cure all supplement with little to no evidence to support it. If it has the label "Supplement", there's no regulation on it, and the manufacturer can claim it makes your dick grow a foot, and they don't have to prove that it does. And many uninformed people out there will believe anything the label tells them. That's why supplements are treated with as much skepticism as they are. It's not some big scientific scandal at all.

We are going to have to agree to disagree. Some things should be self-evident like absorbing all the c you put in your system when you are sick. Your body is using it. The supps I take have well documented benefits. I am not going to waste and entire day digging stuff up for you. Anyone taking D3 and C will notice they get sick a lot less. I am sure there are many posters right here who can verify that for you although you won't believe it because some government agency may post an article saying it is horseshit and just a placebo. When I came in here talking about the eliminating allergies (hayfeaver) with garlic I had even the most skeptical of poster in Dave confirm it works. When I talked about topical green tea eliminating the earliest signs of skin cancer I got laughed off the board but have had confirmations since. I will agree with you that there is a ton of supplementation out there that is crap and even more manufacturers who produce inferior products but people like you are far more dangerous than the supplementation industry. You would have people believe that the only thing that works in the world is big pharms take through the FDA. Outlawing supplementation wasn't a scientific scandal as much as it was a follow the money scandal initiated by big pharm using their scientists to say anything that was necessary to gain control of a 60 Billion dollar industry. I don't know what's more amazing your inability to grasp that or your outright denial that supplementation of any kind has benefits and makes a difference in people's quality of life. Outlawing supplementation wasn't really outlawing it at all, you could still get it but now it would be by prescription from your doctor straight from big pharm.

vailpass
10-26-2012, 12:54 PM
Actually, shoot enough test and your dick will get bigger. This was even verified by Jose Conseco's wife in his book and I dunno, about a billion other dudes on the planet that have run heavy cycles. Which is why I laugh when uneducated mental midgets say shit like "steroids shrink your dick!"

Actually, it's your balls. And you don't really need your balls if you don't plan on having kids anymore. So for those people it just means a bigger dong, stronger libido, more muscle mass and strength, and less bodyfat. So pretty much, it just makes you more awesome.

Guy I know at the bar just had testosterone implants injected into his butt cheek. Is that the same kind of testosterone you are talking about here?

loochy
10-26-2012, 01:24 PM
Guy I know at the bar just had testosterone implants injected into his butt cheek. Is that the same kind of testosterone you are talking about here?

wtf?

Brock
10-26-2012, 01:26 PM
Guy I know at the bar just had testosterone implants injected into his butt cheek. Is that the same kind of testosterone you are talking about here?

What kind of bars do you hang out in?

FAX
10-26-2012, 01:27 PM
Guy I know at the bar just had testosterone implants injected into his butt cheek. Is that the same kind of testosterone you are talking about here?

I think he meant botox ... not testosterone, Mr. vailpass.

I think your bar buddy got a butt lift.

FAX

Aspengc8
10-26-2012, 02:06 PM
Actually, shoot enough test and your dick will get bigger. This was even verified by Jose Conseco's wife in his book and I dunno, about a billion other dudes on the planet that have run heavy cycles. Which is why I laugh when uneducated mental midgets say shit like "steroids shrink your dick!"

Actually, it's your balls. And you don't really need your balls if you don't plan on having kids anymore. So for those people it just means a bigger dong, stronger libido, more muscle mass and strength, and less bodyfat. So pretty much, it just makes you more awesome.

QFT

ptlyon
10-26-2012, 02:09 PM
What kind of bars do you hang out in?

Shhhhh. Hes from denver.

Fish
10-26-2012, 02:11 PM
We are going to have to agree to disagree. Some things should be self-evident like absorbing all the c you put in your system when you are sick. Your body is using it. The supps I take have well documented benefits. I am not going to waste and entire day digging stuff up for you. Anyone taking D3 and C will notice they get sick a lot less. I am sure there are many posters right here who can verify that for you although you won't believe it because some government agency may post an article saying it is horseshit and just a placebo. When I came in here talking about the eliminating allergies (hayfeaver) with garlic I had even the most skeptical of poster in Dave confirm it works. When I talked about topical green tea eliminating the earliest signs of skin cancer I got laughed off the board but have had confirmations since. I will agree with you that there is a ton of supplementation out there that is crap and even more manufacturers who produce inferior products but people like you are far more dangerous than the supplementation industry. You would have people believe that the only thing that works in the world is big pharms take through the FDA. Outlawing supplementation wasn't a scientific scandal as much as it was a follow the money scandal initiated by big pharm using their scientists to say anything that was necessary to gain control of a 60 Billion dollar industry. I don't know what's more amazing your inability to grasp that or your outright denial that supplementation of any kind has benefits and makes a difference in people's quality of life. Outlawing supplementation wasn't really outlawing it at all, you could still get it but now it would be by prescription from your doctor straight from big pharm.

If there are well documented benefits, then it shouldn't be hard to dig up your "Sources". I managed to dig up plenty that support my stance, and didn't waste an entire day. All you're offering up is personal opinions. If my information is untrue, then it should't take much effort to find the truth. But OK...

And FYI... you should limit the amount of Vitamin C you put into your body. Too much Vitamin C can cause stomach ache, diarrhea, and can slow metabolism. The body can only absorb so much, and anything past that isn't beneficial and can be pretty uncomfortable.

You have also grossly confused my opinions on pretty much everything in your post. I really hate Big Pharm. I don't support them, and I feel they do much more harm than good. I've never said that supplements provide no benefits for anything. What I said was that they rarely provide the benefits described, and aren't worth the money for the majority of people. Big difference. Also, you continue to lump Big Pharm and the Supplement industry together. They are not the same thing.

Big Pharm is at least somewhat held to a standard of proof by the FDA. I know you think the FDA is also evil. And while they are far from perfect, the good they do far outweighs the bad. Big Pharm would be infinitely worse without the FDA. The Supplement industry has zero standards at all. They can claim whatever they want, and they can even hire an actor to put on a doctor's gown and claim it as a proven miracle cure. Outlawing supplementation wouldn't just shift the product into Big Pharm's domain. It would shift it into the FDA's domain, which would require testing and studies to be done before allowing supplement manufacturers to make health claims for it. But that would be the supplement industry's undoing though, since it would require proof. The industry would simply go away for the most part, because they could no longer legally sell lies.

To say that I'm worse than the entire supplement industry is pretty funny. My only goal is for people to be correctly informed, and not believe whatever BS is printed on the bottle. Seek out further information. Look into studies that have been done. Look into studies that both support and criticize, and decide for yourself. Just don't base your decisions on personal opinions that aren't founded.

vailpass
10-26-2012, 05:10 PM
wtf?

I hadn't heard of it either. Guy I see at happy hour fairly regularly; our kids go to the same school. Commercial real estate developer; successful dude. Over general drunk talk at the bar a couple months ago he mentioned he had low testosterone and was having these time release testosterone pellets shot into his ass. Saw him again last week, he said he was really happy with the procedure. Said he felt a lot more energy and had lead in his pencil again.
I called bullshit. We looked it up on my phone, sure enough there it is still in my search history. Stuff is called testopel.

Now I hear talk of testosterone here, second time in a week I've heard people talking about it. Just wondering it's the same substance, just administered differently or if the weight lifters use something else.

vailpass
10-26-2012, 05:11 PM
I think he meant botox ... not testosterone, Mr. vailpass.

I think your bar buddy got a butt lift.

FAX

:) NTTAWWT

NewChief
10-26-2012, 05:43 PM
I hadn't heard of it either. Guy I see at happy hour fairly regularly; our kids go to the same school. Commercial real estate developer; successful dude. Over general drunk talk at the bar a couple months ago he mentioned he had low testosterone and was having these time release testosterone pellets shot into his ass. Saw him again last week, he said he was really happy with the procedure. Said he felt a lot more energy and had lead in his pencil again.
I called bullshit. We looked it up on my phone, sure enough there it is still in my search history. Stuff is called testopel.

Now I hear talk of testosterone here, second time in a week I've heard people talking about it. Just wondering it's the same substance, just administered differently or if the weight lifters use something else.

It's the rage, now. I also know two different local dudes who committed suicide after getting on the shit. People are having kids later. Their kids get in high school/college and they start wanting to become "hip" again because they have more time on their hands to go out and hang with their wives, only they're nearing 50 years old. So they start getting testosterone in order to recapture their youth. While it may work for some, the results aren't always good.

BigCatDaddy
10-26-2012, 05:52 PM
It's the rage, now. I also know two different local dudes who committed suicide after getting on the shit. People are having kids later. Their kids get in high school/college and they start wanting to become "hip" again because they have more time on their hands to go out and hang with their wives, only they're nearing 50 years old. So they start getting testosterone in order to recapture their youth. While it may work for some, the results aren't always good.

You know two guys that committed suicide and it was caused by testosterone? I'm skeptical that the testosterone would have been the cause.

BigCatDaddy
10-26-2012, 06:01 PM
If there are well documented benefits, then it shouldn't be hard to dig up your "Sources". I managed to dig up plenty that support my stance, and didn't waste an entire day. All you're offering up is personal opinions. If my information is untrue, then it should't take much effort to find the truth. But OK...

And FYI... you should limit the amount of Vitamin C you put into your body. Too much Vitamin C can cause stomach ache, diarrhea, and can slow metabolism. The body can only absorb so much, and anything past that isn't beneficial and can be pretty uncomfortable.

You have also grossly confused my opinions on pretty much everything in your post. I really hate Big Pharm. I don't support them, and I feel they do much more harm than good. I've never said that supplements provide no benefits for anything. What I said was that they rarely provide the benefits described, and aren't worth the money for the majority of people. Big difference. Also, you continue to lump Big Pharm and the Supplement industry together. They are not the same thing.

Big Pharm is at least somewhat held to a standard of proof by the FDA. I know you think the FDA is also evil. And while they are far from perfect, the good they do far outweighs the bad. Big Pharm would be infinitely worse without the FDA. The Supplement industry has zero standards at all. They can claim whatever they want, and they can even hire an actor to put on a doctor's gown and claim it as a proven miracle cure. Outlawing supplementation wouldn't just shift the product into Big Pharm's domain. It would shift it into the FDA's domain, which would require testing and studies to be done before allowing supplement manufacturers to make health claims for it. But that would be the supplement industry's undoing though, since it would require proof. The industry would simply go away for the most part, because they could no longer legally sell lies.

To say that I'm worse than the entire supplement industry is pretty funny. My only goal is for people to be correctly informed, and not believe whatever BS is printed on the bottle. Seek out further information. Look into studies that have been done. Look into studies that both support and criticize, and decide for yourself. Just don't base your decisions on personal opinions that aren't founded.

So you want big brother to tell you what's good for you rather then leaving it up to people to do their own research and choose for themselves?

NewChief
10-26-2012, 06:03 PM
You know two guys that committed suicide and it was caused by testosterone? I'm skeptical that the testosterone would have been the cause.

Not saying it was the sole cause, but both wives have reported that their husbands had recently started testosterone therapy a year or so prior to the suicide. That being said, they may have started the therapy due to an underlying depression. Correlation doesn't equate causation, and I'm aware of that.

I'm still skeptical, but I tend to be skeptical about most things. If it's too good to be true, then it likely is.

TheGuardian
10-26-2012, 06:08 PM
It's the rage, now. I also know two different local dudes who committed suicide after getting on the shit. People are having kids later. Their kids get in high school/college and they start wanting to become "hip" again because they have more time on their hands to go out and hang with their wives, only they're nearing 50 years old. So they start getting testosterone in order to recapture their youth. While it may work for some, the results aren't always good.

No one kills themselves because of test. Jesus. As noted, there was probably some underlying depression but the amount of test these guys get on HRT is just enough to bring it to normal levels. I mean, I know guys shooting 3+ grams of test a week. Far as I know they are still alive.

BigCatDaddy
10-26-2012, 06:11 PM
Not saying it was the sole cause, but both wives have reported that their husbands had recently started testosterone therapy a year or so prior to the suicide. That being said, they may have started the therapy due to an underlying depression. Correlation doesn't equate causation, and I'm aware of that.

I'm still skeptical, but I tend to be skeptical about most things. If it's too good to be true, then it likely is.

I don't know what they were doing exactly, but I suppose I can see if they weren't being treated properly how that might happen. Some docs don't prescribe it to have a nice even level in your system, but rather highs and lows for example 100mg every 2 weeks is bad IMO. If the levels were on the decline after being high then I suppose how I can see it might be related. Going from 800 to 150 and back up and down isn't good.

NewChief
10-26-2012, 06:13 PM
No one kills themselves because of test. Jesus. As noted, there was probably some underlying depression but the amount of test these guys get on HRT is just enough to bring it to normal levels. I mean, I know guys shooting 3+ grams of test a week. Far as I know they are still alive.

Your anecdotal evidence of "I know a guy" doesn't outweight my "I know a guy." Much like with marijuana, I'm skeptical. I support legalization, but I don't see pot as some kind of cure-all that's going to solve all our problems like many of its fervent advocates preach. I also think that test has legitimate benefits for some people, but I don't think it's some kind of cure all for middle-aged men to feel like studs into their 70s like many of the test advocates preach.

TheGuardian
10-26-2012, 06:20 PM
Your anecdotal evidence of "I know a guy" doesn't outweight my "I know a guy." Much like with marijuana, I'm skeptical. I support legalization, but I don't see pot as some kind of cure-all that's going to solve all our problems like many of its fervent advocates preach. I also think that test has legitimate benefits for some people, but I don't think it's some kind of cure all for middle-aged men to feel like studs into their 70s like many of the test advocates preach.

If they are low it will.

And I have like decade after decade of research to back my stance up actually. Those men killed themselves probably due to other reasons. I'm not sure how putting a hormone in your body that already exists, to a normal amount, would make you suicidal. Again, there had to be other underlying issues.

Agree totally on the marijuana part. Total for legalizing it, but mainly for the economy. Not because I think it has all these wonderful properties about it.

NewChief
10-26-2012, 06:28 PM
If they are low it will.

And I have like decade after decade of research to back my stance up actually. Those men killed themselves probably due to other reasons. I'm not sure how putting a hormone in your body that already exists, to a normal amount, would make you suicidal. Again, there had to be other underlying issues.

Agree totally on the marijuana part. Total for legalizing it, but mainly for the economy. Not because I think it has all these wonderful properties about it.

Here's the deal: doctors are prescribing test now just like they prescribe adderall. You pay some high dollars, pull up at a "clinic", where the parking lots if filled with high dollar japanese and european SUVs, pay a premium "consultation" fee, and you get the drug/hormone/supplement of your choice from benzos to stims to test to HGH.

We have tons of friends who do it for adderall and quite a few who do it for test. Their "diagnosis" ranges from adult ADHD, to need for weight loss (for waifish women), to adult depression.

It's just like when my friends in college used to make trips down to Mexico to the pharms down there to pick up benzos and opiates, except now you can do it right at your friendly neighborhood quack. It's not that I'm skeptical of the benefits of test, I'm skeptical of how its being used and all the societal/class bullshit that goes along with this method of drug dispensation. Fuckers are getting locked up for life for slinging some weed on the street corner, but legal quacks are doling this stuff out to the rich under the aegis of the law. It's bullshit, and test has become part of that whole thing.

TheGuardian
10-26-2012, 06:37 PM
Here's the deal: doctors are prescribing test now just like they prescribe adderall. You pay some high dollars, pull up at a "clinic", where the parking lots if filled with high dollar japanese and european SUVs, pay a premium "consultation" fee, and you get the drug/hormone/supplement of your choice from benzos to stims to test to HGH.

We have tons of friends who do it for adderall and quite a few who do it for test. Their "diagnosis" ranges from adult ADHD, to need for weight loss (for waifish women), to adult depression.

It's just like when my friends in college used to make trips down to Mexico to the pharms down there to pick up benzos and opiates, except now you can do it right at your friendly neighborhood quack. It's not that I'm skeptical of the benefits of test, I'm skeptical of how its being used and all the societal/class bullshit that goes along with this method of drug dispensation. ****ers are getting locked up for life for slinging some weed on the street corner, but legal quacks are doling this stuff out to the rich under the aegis of the law. It's bullshit, and test has become part of that whole thing.

Yeah but it's just test, and they charge a fuck ton for it. No one is dying from test or knocking over liquor stores for money for it. So who cares?

KC_Connection
10-26-2012, 06:46 PM
This argument reminds me of when people ridiculously blamed Chris Benoit's murder-suicide on steroids.

Fish
10-26-2012, 07:18 PM
So you want big brother to tell you what's good for you rather then leaving it up to people to do their own research and choose for themselves?

Yes, that's exactly what I meant when I said this:

My only goal is for people to be correctly informed, and not believe whatever BS is printed on the bottle. Seek out further information. Look into studies that have been done. Look into studies that both support and criticize, and decide for yourself.

TheGuardian
10-26-2012, 08:30 PM
This argument reminds me of when people ridiculously blamed Chris Benoit's murder-suicide on steroids.

Yup. When he had a history of depression and other mental problems. I'm not saying the anabolics/androgenics HELPED (thought they can in some people with low test) but dude was wired to snap regardless. It's also assumed he may have been suffering from the same shit that caused Seau to kill himself.

I am still in disbelief at times over that one.

HMc
10-26-2012, 09:44 PM
That's fine. You think it works for you, and don't care about any placebo effect. That makes your position pretty clear.



You don't come across as smart as you think you do. I enjoy my workouts after using SM. I have no practical means of testing whether it is due a placebo effect or because of the stuff they put in it, nor do I have any real incentive at 40$ a bottle to seek out such a test. I enjoy my workouts more than when I had coffee beforehand (all other variables remained equal). It does not mean I entirely disregard scientific evidence when it is available.



And it's ironic that you bring up testosterone supplements. That's one of the worst categories of misinformed supplements. At least you clarified it as supplementing with needles. That's at least slightly effective compared to the pill format.

It's not "ironic" (please procure a reputable dictionary). I didn't bring up testosterone supplements or "t booster" supplements or whatever, so your slab of quoted text that refutes the efficacy of those is useless. I said SUPPLEMENTING TESTOSTERONE with NEEDLES, or in other words, using anabolic steroids. If you think that process only provides "slight" gains, I don't know what else to tell you.

BigCatDaddy
10-26-2012, 10:46 PM
Yes, that's exactly what I meant when I said this:

Sorry, I thought you were suggesting the "outlawing" of supplements when you listed reasons why it should be done.

BIG_DADDY
10-26-2012, 11:44 PM
You don't come across as smart as you think you do. I enjoy my workouts after using SM. I have no practical means of testing whether it is due a placebo effect or because of the stuff they put in it, nor do I have any real incentive at 40$ a bottle to seek out such a test. I enjoy my workouts more than when I had coffee beforehand (all other variables remained equal). It does not mean I entirely disregard scientific evidence when it is available.



It's not "ironic" (please procure a reputable dictionary). I didn't bring up testosterone supplements or "t booster" supplements or whatever, so your slab of quoted text that refutes the efficacy of those is useless. I said SUPPLEMENTING TESTOSTERONE with NEEDLES, or in other words, using anabolic steroids. If you think that process only provides "slight" gains, I don't know what else to tell you.

I just refuse to debate something with someone who has no clue what he is talking about and won't acknowledge anything as being true unless he read it from a fucking government sponsored website or another only if it confirms that everything is a placebo. For those who have taken roids like myself many times over decades I think I got a really good feel for knowing what is working and what isn't. I don't need somebody who is an expert at reading articles from supposed experts who has no personal experience at all coming and telling me I am just imagining things and giving me his flipping pretentious attitude. Fuck your science. I have no idea why fish does this, he is way to smart to go down that road. He knows all about the dosing of C but doesn't know the first thing about the benefits? Give me a flippen break. Dude just feels the need to make other people feel stupid for whatever reason. Lets check the list, bigger, stonger, leaner and I got zits on my ass like when I was 16, IT MUST BE MY FUCKING IMAGINATION.

I am a friggen retard, thank god Fish came along to give me clarity.

loochy
10-27-2012, 09:24 AM
I hadn't heard of it either. Guy I see at happy hour fairly regularly; our kids go to the same school. Commercial real estate developer; successful dude. Over general drunk talk at the bar a couple months ago he mentioned he had low testosterone and was having these time release testosterone pellets shot into his ass. Saw him again last week, he said he was really happy with the procedure. Said he felt a lot more energy and had lead in his pencil again.
I called bullshit. We looked it up on my phone, sure enough there it is still in my search history. Stuff is called testopel.

Now I hear talk of testosterone here, second time in a week I've heard people talking about it. Just wondering it's the same substance, just administered differently or if the weight lifters use something else.

They have that same stuff for cattle and it's been used for years. Synovex H has testosterone propionate and Finaplix has trenbolone acetate. FYI, both types of pellets can be broken down and processed into human consumable steroids.

Fruit Ninja
10-27-2012, 10:37 AM
It was recommended to me for muscle recovery (by way of better sleep at night). Nearly every review of it talks about awesome sleep. Check it out.

Well I had insomia bad for months then one day I was like imma sleep in my boxers then i shit u not my insomnia went away. Now im sleeping 8hours like a champ now. It went away from one day to the next lol


I was sleeping lime 2-3 hours a day prior to that for Like 3 months straight. All it took was sleeping in my boxers lol

Buck
10-29-2012, 08:20 PM
Last night I only got 4 hours and woke up like I had 8. Tonight I'll get an actual 8 we'll see how I feel in the morning.

Pasta Giant Meatball
10-29-2012, 08:24 PM
Buck, I just bought this because of your suggestion. Let's see if this helps me finally get some good sleep at night.

Buck
10-29-2012, 08:28 PM
Buck, I just bought this because of your suggestion. Let's see if this helps me finally get some good sleep at night.

It doesn't help you fall asleep, it just makes the sleep you get better. Give it a few days before you judge it.

You can always take a melatonin and this at the same time.

Also it's recommended you don't eat anything with calcium in it for a while before you take it because Calcium blocks the absorption of B6 into your body.

Good luck.

NewChief
10-29-2012, 08:30 PM
Buck, I just bought this because of your suggestion. Let's see if this helps me finally get some good sleep at night.

Don't forget to think about trains.

Pasta Giant Meatball
10-29-2012, 08:31 PM
Yeah, I usually don't have trouble falling asleep, it's that I wake up too often throughout the night for no reason at all.

I'll fill in with the results periodically.

Pasta Giant Meatball
10-29-2012, 08:33 PM
Don't forget to think about trains.

Brains, Brains, BRAIIIINNNSSS!!!! Oh shit what have you done :eek:

BIG_DADDY
10-30-2012, 10:54 AM
So, how did that placebo work out for you?

Aspengc8
10-30-2012, 11:18 AM
No one kills themselves because of test. Jesus. As noted, there was probably some underlying depression but the amount of test these guys get on HRT is just enough to bring it to normal levels. I mean, I know guys shooting 3+ grams of test a week. Far as I know they are still alive.

This.

BIG_DADDY
10-30-2012, 11:32 AM
This.

The misinformation on steroids is mind boggling. Good god, people will believe anything.

loochy
10-30-2012, 11:34 AM
Not saying it was the sole cause, but both wives have reported that their husbands had recently started testosterone therapy a year or so prior to the suicide. That being said, they may have started the therapy due to an underlying depression. Correlation doesn't equate causation, and I'm aware of that.

I'm still skeptical, but I tend to be skeptical about most things. If it's too good to be true, then it likely is.

I'd say that test actually made me much HAPPIER...and I was using dosages that far exceeded the tiny doses used in HRT

BIG_DADDY
10-30-2012, 11:48 AM
Here's the deal: doctors are prescribing test now just like they prescribe adderall. You pay some high dollars, pull up at a "clinic", where the parking lots if filled with high dollar japanese and european SUVs, pay a premium "consultation" fee, and you get the drug/hormone/supplement of your choice from benzos to stims to test to HGH.

We have tons of friends who do it for adderall and quite a few who do it for test. Their "diagnosis" ranges from adult ADHD, to need for weight loss (for waifish women), to adult depression.

It's just like when my friends in college used to make trips down to Mexico to the pharms down there to pick up benzos and opiates, except now you can do it right at your friendly neighborhood quack. It's not that I'm skeptical of the benefits of test, I'm skeptical of how its being used and all the societal/class bullshit that goes along with this method of drug dispensation. ****ers are getting locked up for life for slinging some weed on the street corner, but legal quacks are doling this stuff out to the rich under the aegis of the law. It's bullshit, and test has become part of that whole thing.

This is why years ago during the Bush administration they went after the small pharm who was producing some great products so they wouldn't have any competition when they opened these. Now you have seen exactly what I predicted come to fruition.

They have been doing this in Europe for a very long time. This is the first time I have heard of anything bad coming from it other than a little added aggression. Heaven forbid a male be aggressive in this country. Don't they know their balls are supposed to be kept in a locked box on the mantel?

Fish
10-30-2012, 11:59 AM
This is why years ago during the Bush administration they went after the small pharm who was producing some great products so they wouldn't have any competition when they opened these. Now you have seen exactly what I predicted come to fruition.

They have been doing this in Europe for a very long time. This is the first time I have heard of anything bad coming from it other than a little added aggression. Heaven forbid a male be aggressive in this country. Don't they know their balls are supposed to be kept in a locked box on the mantel?

Roid rage is the American way.... right?

BigCatDaddy
10-30-2012, 12:05 PM
This is why years ago during the Bush administration they went after the small pharm who was producing some great products so they wouldn't have any competition when they opened these. Now you have seen exactly what I predicted come to fruition.

They have been doing this in Europe for a very long time. This is the first time I have heard of anything bad coming from it other than a little added aggression. Heaven forbid a male be aggressive in this country. Don't they know their balls are supposed to be kept in a locked box on the mantel?

Are you talking about supplement companies when you are saying "Small Pharm"? I saw you mention Ergpharm earlier when referencing them.

Aspengc8
10-30-2012, 12:06 PM
The misinformation on steroids is mind boggling. Good god, people will believe anything.

I agree 100%. Lots of misinformation also spread by people that can get their hands on the drugs, but don't research the proper way to go about taking them.

Saulbadguy
10-30-2012, 12:09 PM
The misinformation on steroids is mind boggling. Good god, people will believe anything.

How much 'roids do I need to do to get swole?

loochy
10-30-2012, 12:14 PM
How much 'roids do I need to do to get swole?

if you are under your natural limit, none

BIG_DADDY
10-30-2012, 12:29 PM
Are you talking about supplement companies when you are saying "Small Pharm"? I saw you mention Ergpharm earlier when referencing them.

When Bush was doing his whole war on roids thing what they really went after was banning endless supplements and going after manufacturers in the best interest of our kids. Ergopharm was one af many they went after with both barrels. Yes supplements. Truth be known kids just went after the real deal instead.

BIG_DADDY
10-30-2012, 12:31 PM
Roid rage is the American way.... right?

No, putting on a skirt and holding hands why we skip is the new American way. Don't get me started on the emasculation of the American male, I'm not biting.

BigCatDaddy
10-30-2012, 12:41 PM
When Bush was doing his whole war on roids thing what they really went after was banning endless supplements and going after manufacturers in the best interest of our kids. Ergopharm was one af many they went after with both barrels. Yes supplements. Truth be known kids just went after the real deal instead.

Wasn't that more congress then Bush and it was all stirred up by MLB. They went after Ergopharm because the Gov't had a hard on for Patrick Arnold after the whole Balco thing blew up. I remember them banning some hormones and ephedra. Anything else of significance?

BigCatDaddy
10-30-2012, 12:44 PM
No, putting on a skirt and holding hands why we skip is the new American way. Don't get me started on the emasculation of the American male, I'm not biting.

You do realize in the 1940's the average American male's T level was 700 and today it's around 400. Correlation?

BIG_DADDY
10-30-2012, 12:59 PM
Wasn't that more congress then Bush and it was all stirred up by MLB. They went after Ergopharm because the Gov't had a hard on for Patrick Arnold after the whole Balco thing blew up. I remember them banning some hormones and ephedra. Anything else of significance?

Bush was all about big money. Doing that cleared the way for what was next. Instead of things being cheap now they are a lot more. I am at the age where I will probably consider doing something on a serious level in the next 5 years or so. I am just not ready to wither away yet. I am all about looking for alternative ways to make that happen though instead of embracing our clinics here. I haven't done due diligence in this area in years though so I am not going to be very helpful in the short run. Egypt was producing high quality alternatives to our own BIG PHARM last time I checked but even then my due diligence was incomplete and I can't even confirm that that was actually true. Stay tuned though. I will start that due-diligence soon though and have some real answers.

BIG_DADDY
10-30-2012, 01:02 PM
You do realize in the 1940's the average American male's T level was 700 and today it's around 400. Correlation?

Sure.

Buck
11-09-2012, 09:14 AM
First time sleeping without ZMA since starting last night and I feel like I was hit with a ton of bricks.

beach tribe
11-09-2012, 09:23 AM
what do you mean, "control of my dreams"?
sec

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/nVmnkY62ut4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

beach tribe
11-09-2012, 09:32 AM
First time sleeping without ZMA since starting last night and I feel like I was hit with a ton of bricks.

Was the first one free?

Discuss Thrower
11-09-2012, 09:33 AM
Still keep thinking of ZIMA everytime I see this thread title.

Pasta Giant Meatball
11-09-2012, 05:04 PM
Dreams are wierd on this stuff. Worth taking it for that alone ROFL

BIG_DADDY
12-05-2012, 09:46 AM
Took ZMA last night. Slept an amazing 10 hours with lots of dreams. I only take this when I have extra time to sleep. Love it.

durtyrute
12-05-2012, 10:35 AM
No, putting on a skirt and holding hands why we skip is the new American way. Don't get me started on the emasculation of the American male, I'm not biting.

Yea, you see it in movies and in music videos all of the time now. Men wearing dresses and kissing other men. Men wearing fucking leopard print pants. It's crazy. Ghey is the new normal.

NTTAWWT

Pasta Giant Meatball
12-05-2012, 12:33 PM
The dreams on this shit crack me up...Heh Heh

Bewbies
12-05-2012, 12:43 PM
I started taking ZMA instead of drinking Calm, a powdered magnesium you add to water.

Sleep is deep, dreams are crazy. Crazy crazy crazy.

BigCatDaddy
12-05-2012, 12:45 PM
All right. I broke down and bought some. I want me some crazy dreams.

|Zach|
12-05-2012, 01:09 PM
Guy I know at the bar just had testosterone implants injected into his butt cheek. Is that the same kind of testosterone you are talking about here?

Gay.

mnchiefsguy
12-05-2012, 02:58 PM
First time sleeping without ZMA since starting last night and I feel like I was hit with a ton of bricks.

What brand of ZMA do you use Buck? Amazon has many different choices at very different price levels. Is there a difference in brands?

BigCatDaddy
12-05-2012, 03:00 PM
What brand of ZMA do you use Buck? Amazon has many different choices at very different price levels. Is there a difference in brands?

NOW is top quality in the world of supplements and cheap. That's what I just bought and recommend them.

Bob Dole
12-05-2012, 03:00 PM
Still keep thinking of ZIMA everytime I see this thread title.

Maybe Twang has ZMA in it.

mnchiefsguy
12-05-2012, 03:02 PM
NOW is top quality in the world of supplements and cheap. That's what I just bought and recommend them.

Thanks for the recommendation! The Now brand is only 11 buck on amazon, so it is worth checking out.

Pasta Giant Meatball
12-05-2012, 04:38 PM
All right. I broke down and bought some. I want me some crazy dreams.

Enjoy man

Buck
12-05-2012, 04:53 PM
Weird, I was going to bump this thread at about 5 am this morning, but I didn't...

I take The Vitamin Shoppe store brand. Just get the cheapest one. It's just Zinc, Magnesium, and B6.

Bewbies
12-05-2012, 04:56 PM
Thanks for the recommendation! The Now brand is only 11 buck on amazon, so it is worth checking out.

That's the one I use.