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Pitt Gorilla
11-04-2012, 10:54 PM
Sounds like a pretty sweet deal.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-10-29/romney-avoids-taxes-via-loophole-cutting-mormon-donations.html

Romney Avoids Taxes via Loophole Cutting Mormon Donations
By Jesse Drucker - Oct 28, 2012 11:01 PM CT

In 1997, Congress cracked down on a popular tax shelter that allowed rich people to take advantage of the exempt status of charities without actually giving away much money.

Individuals who had already set up these vehicles were allowed to keep them. That included Mitt Romney, then the chief executive officer of Bain Capital, who had just established such an arrangement in June 1996.

The charitable remainder unitrust, as it is known, is one of several strategies Romney has adopted over his career to reduce his tax bill. While Romney’s tax avoidance is legal and common among high-net-worth individuals, it has become an issue in the campaign. President Barack Obama attacked him in their second debate for paying “lower tax rates than somebody who makes a lot less.”

In this instance, Romney used the tax-exempt status of a charity -- the Mormon Church, according to a 2007 filing -- to defer taxes for more than 15 years. At the same time he is benefiting, the trust will probably leave the church with less than what current law requires, according to tax returns obtained by Bloomberg this month through a Freedom of Information Act request.
In general, charities don’t owe capital gains taxes when they sell assets for a profit. Trusts like Romney’s permit funders to benefit from that tax-free treatment, said Jonathan Blattmachr, a trusts and estates lawyer who set up hundreds of such vehicles in the 1990s.

Near Zero

“The main benefit from a charitable remainder trust is the renting from your favorite charity of its exemption from taxation,” Blattmachr said. Despite the name, giving a gift or getting a charitable deduction “is just a throwaway,” he said. “I used to structure them so the value dedicated to charity was as close to zero as possible without being zero.”

When individuals fund a charitable remainder unitrust, or “CRUT,” they defer capital gains taxes on any profit from the sale of the assets, and receive a small upfront charitable deduction and a stream of yearly cash payments. Like an individual retirement account, the trust allows money to grow tax deferred, while like an annuity it also pays Romney a steady income. After the funder’s death, the trust’s remaining assets go to a designated charity.

Romney’s CRUT, which is only a small part of the $250 million that Romney’s campaign cites as his net worth, has been paying him 8 percent of its assets each year. As the Romneys have received these payments, the money that will potentially be left for charity has declined from at least $750,000 in 2001 to $421,203 at the end of 2011.

Tax Returns

The Romney campaign declined to answer written questions about the trust.
“The trust has operated in accordance with the law,” Michele Davis, a campaign spokeswoman, said in an e-mail.

Paul Comstock, a financial adviser to LDS Philanthropies, an arm of the Mormon Church, said that while he wasn’t familiar with the trust, Romney and his trustee might arrange to compensate the church for the dwindling amount with other gifts.

“It may be that they’ve made provisions for the charity someplace else that will make up for what this isn’t going to give them,” Comstock said.

Bloomberg News obtained the trust’s tax returns from 2007 to 2011 from the Internal Revenue Service. Romney hasn’t disclosed the trust’s tax returns and is under no legal obligation to do so. He did make some disclosures about the trust’s investments in Massachusetts filings from 2002 to 2007 and as a presidential candidate in the current campaign.

After Death

Funds held by Romney’s trust are scheduled to be distributed after the death of Romney and his wife to “a charitable organization to be designated by Romney,” according to the 2007 filing, disclosing assets he held while governor of Massachusetts. “In the absence of such a designation the funds will go to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.”

Davis declined to comment on whether Romney has designated another charity since then.

Romney has been an active member of the church, which expects members to donate 10 percent of their income. Over the years, he has donated millions of dollars of stock in Bain-owned companies to the church, securities filings show.
The church recommends such trusts on its website as one of many options for donors.

“Probably one of the advantages of a charitable remainder trust is that it helps with capital gains tax,” said Carl McLelland, an attorney in the planned giving office for LDS Philanthropies.

Capital Gains

CRUTs were more common in the 1990s when capital gains rates were higher. In 1996, when Romney set up his trust in Massachusetts, the federal rate was 28 percent, compared with 15 percent today. At the time, a Massachusetts state resident who sold shares for a gain of $1 million could have faced a combined state and federal capital gains tax of as much as 40 percent, reducing his take to $600,000.

By contrast, if he contributed the stock to a CRUT, and it sold the shares, it typically wouldn’t owe any tax since it is a charitable trust. The CRUT could reinvest the $1 million and earn a return on the full amount.

“The power of this is the tax deferral,” said Jay A. Friedman, a partner at accounting firm Perelson Weiner LLP in New York. “The money is all growing tax free and he only pays tax on what is distributed to him.”

Concerned that CRUTS weren’t sufficiently philanthropic, Congress mandated in July 1997 that the present value of what was projected to be left for charity must equal at least 10 percent of the initial contribution. Existing CRUTS weren’t affected by the new law.

Dwindling Principal

Romney’s trust was projected to leave to charity an amount with a present value of a little less than 8 percent of the initial contribution, according to an analysis by Friedman. Thus, the specifics of Romney’s trust wouldn’t have passed legal muster if it had been set up 13 months later, he said.

Because the trust’s investments have been earning a return far below its annual payouts to the Romneys, its principal has dwindled rapidly.

In 2001, five years after it was established, the trust had a value of between $750,000 and $1.25 million. Since then, it has pursued a conservative investment strategy -- regardless of the ups and downs of the stock market -- buying a mix of money- market funds, federally-backed bonds and federal bond funds. Since 2007, it has moved its assets entirely into cash. By 2011, its investments earned a return of $48, down from between $60,001 and $100,000 in 2001. It paid $36,696 to the Romneys in 2011.

Romneys Favored

The current investing strategy favors the Romneys over the charity because they get a guaranteed payout, said Michael Arlein, a trusts and estates lawyer at Patterson Belknap Webb & Tyler LLP.

“The Romneys get theirs off the top and the charity gets what’s left,” he said. “So by definition, if it’s not performing as well, the charity gets harmed more.”
The trustee for Romney’s CRUT is R. Bradford Malt, chairman of the law firm Ropes & Gray LLP, and manager for Romney’s various family trusts as well as his personal attorney. Ropes & Gray has also been for years the main outside counsel for Bain Capital.

If the CRUT maintains the same investing strategy, assets will continue to shrink, said Jerome M. Hesch, a tax and estate planning attorney at the law firm Carlton Fields. The trustee acted prudently in protecting against losses during a stock market decline, he said.

Nevertheless, “what’s going to go to charity is probably close to nothing,” Hesch said.

To contact the reporter on this story: Jesse Drucker in New York at jdrucker4@bloomberg.net

ClevelandBronco
11-04-2012, 11:10 PM
If that's true, I want in.

BucEyedPea
11-04-2012, 11:13 PM
Sounds like something a communist would complain about. Like Obama saying a charity is a tax dodge. Greedy govt boot-lickers and people, like Direckshun, wanting a bigger cut out from other's earnings as it if belongs to them.

Taco John
11-04-2012, 11:32 PM
So you're saying he did it legally, right? What's the problem? That's the whole point of hiring accountants: to lower your tax bill as much as possible.

cosmo20002
11-04-2012, 11:38 PM
So you're saying he did it legally, right? What's the problem? That's the whole point of hiring accountants: to lower your tax bill as much as possible.

Despite being legal, apparently Mitt was a little shy about sharing the info for some reason.

chiefzilla1501
11-04-2012, 11:41 PM
The fact that anyone would think that anybody's method for paying taxes within legal means is an issue shows how fucked up politics has become.

Disagree on political positions. I don't know why anybody gives a shit about this position. It's pretty amazing that this issue has raised 100 times more scrutiny than Libya.

DaFace
11-04-2012, 11:43 PM
The fact that anyone would think that anybody's method for paying taxes within legal means is an issue shows how fucked up politics has become.

Disagree on political positions. I don't know why anybody gives a shit about this position. It's pretty amazing that this issue has raised 100 times more scrutiny than Libya.

I don't even like Romney and I agree with this.

Pawnmower
11-04-2012, 11:44 PM
WAHHHHHHH

"Someone smarter than myself figured out a legal way to win the game of life"

WAHHHH

MOMMY

dirk digler
11-04-2012, 11:52 PM
The fact that anyone would think that anybody's method for paying taxes within legal means is an issue shows how fucked up politics has become.

Disagree on political positions. I don't know why anybody gives a shit about this position. It's pretty amazing that this issue has raised 100 times more scrutiny than Libya.

Because he said he has never paid less than 13%?

Shaid
11-04-2012, 11:53 PM
The issue is that he wants to take away tax credits from lower income families like child tax credits but wants to keep loopholes in place for the rich. Noone sees this as an issue?

Pitt Gorilla
11-05-2012, 12:00 AM
I'm certainly not complaining, don't have a problem with it, and don't think it's an issue. It sounds great to me. No need to project.

Taco John
11-05-2012, 12:04 AM
The issue is that he wants to take away tax credits from lower income families like child tax credits but wants to keep loopholes in place for the rich. Noone sees this as an issue?

What tax credits does Romney want to take away from anyone?

BucEyedPea
11-05-2012, 12:06 AM
Despite being legal, apparently Mitt was a little shy about sharing the info for some reason.

Who wouldn't when communists were gonna use it for warfare to manipulate the masses emotionally?

Pawnmower
11-05-2012, 12:15 AM
Despite being legal, apparently Mitt was a little shy about sharing the info for some reason.

Gee I wonder why...? Despite paying more in taxes in one year than most people do in their life, AND giving substantially to charity, and playing the game LEGALLY....there are people out there who would (OMG!) use this info to try and make him look bad DESPITE the fact that almost half of the population pays very low or zero (much less than 13%) federal income taxes themselves, after you calculate the returns and write offs etc.

BigMeatballDave
11-05-2012, 02:10 AM
Who give a shit?

If I were wealthy, I'd hire a lawyer and an accountant to help me find a legal way to pay the least amount of taxes possible.

Pawnmower
11-05-2012, 02:14 AM
Who give a shit?

If I were wealthy, I'd hire a lawyer and an accountant to help me find a legal way to pay the least amount of taxes possible.

Exactly...

13% of a metric fuck load is still a LOT of fuckign taxes...

Can you really fucking blame ANYONE for avoiding taxes (legally)?

I mean who here goes to their tax guy or fills out the forms and REFUSES to take advantage of the write offs and deductions?

I'm gonna guess NO ONE.

Let me guess, Jensen goes to HNR Block and asks to pay the maximum with no write offs?

Pitt Gorrilla?

Go Bowe?

Who fucking here refuses every write off or doesnt take every single deduction they possibly can (and then some!) LOL

Hypocrites, honestly.

BigMeatballDave
11-05-2012, 02:27 AM
Exactly...

13% of a metric fuck load is still a LOT of fuckign taxes...

Can you really fucking blame ANYONE for avoiding taxes (legally)?

I mean who here goes to their tax guy or fills out the forms and REFUSES to take advantage of the write offs and deductions?

I'm gonna guess NO ONE.

Let me guess, Jensen goes to HNR Block and asks to pay the maximum with no write offs?

Pitt Gorrilla?

Go Bowe?

Who fucking here refuses every write off or doesnt take every single deduction they possibly can (and then some!) LOL

Hypocrites, honestly.Even if he's only paying 10%, he's paid more in one year than I'll make in my lifetime.

Pawnmower
11-05-2012, 02:34 AM
Even if he's only paying 10%, he's paid more in one year than I'll make in my lifetime.

Exactly...And I am willing to bet that every person who is complaining about Mitt Romney's taxes either:

1) Pays less % taxes than him (after getting the refund)

and/or

2) Tries to also avoid paying taxes legally, and takes advantage of every loophole they can.



The thing is , much of Mitt's money was already taxed.........things like capital gains are often a second, third, 4th etc....round of getting taxed on the same money.

Personally I don't think we should pay taxes more than once or MAYBE twice....(Once when we earn it, and once when we spend)..as it is now it is ridiculous....

If it were up to me, I would abolish all income taxes and only have taxes on what you consume.

BigMeatballDave
11-05-2012, 02:38 AM
Exactly...And I am willing to bet that every person who is complaining about Mitt Romney's taxes either:

1) Pays less % taxes than him (after getting the refund)

and/or

2) Tries to also avoid paying taxes legally, and takes advantage of every loophole they can.



The thing is , much of Mitt's money was already taxed.........things like capital gains are often a second, third, 4th etc....round of getting taxed on the same money.

Personally I don't think we should pay taxes more than once or MAYBE twice....(Once when we earn it, and once when we spend)..as it is now it is ridiculous....

If it were up to me, I would abolish all income taxes and only have taxes on what you consume.And you can bet every damn democrat, even Barry, are doing the same things Romney is doing.

lostcause
11-05-2012, 02:55 AM
It was legal when it was created. It wouldn't be legal now, because it's a simple tax shell under the guise of charity and according to the text, congress acted to limit this type of tax evasion, avoidance, limiting, whatever.

Fine, cool, take care of your money - i'm no better and i don't pay as many taxes as romney or would i avoid a write off. But i'm not running for president of the united states and i don't enjoy the lifestyle that being a quarter of a billionaire provides, either.

Watching the wealthy take advantage of monetary loopholes that aren't available to the average person is just fucking annoying. Like people buying hummers on the truck credit a few years back, or using cash for clunkers to fund their new jaguar. It's legal, I'm not above it - but I'm not running for public office. It's just another reason why Mitt is so damn annoying and a lot of people will never identify with him or ever think he gives a fuck about anyone below the financial top 2% in the country.

Pawnmower
11-05-2012, 03:10 AM
Fine, cool, take care of your money - i'm no better and i don't pay as many taxes as romney or would i avoid a write off. But i'm not running for president of the united states and i don't enjoy the lifestyle that being a quarter of a billionaire provides, either.


So because he is rich he should be held to a higher standard than you? Its OK for you to 'not avoid write offs' but he SHOULD avoid them?

Why would you blame him for following laws made by OTHER PEOPLE?

Do you actually think a person like Romney , given all of his charities and business dealings would do ANYTHING other than 100% try his best to get the economy moving and get you into a better position to make more money?

Its almost like there is a culture of blaming the people who are successful instead of trying to emulate them and learn from them.

Being angry at others for their success? Why? Truly baffling.

lostcause
11-05-2012, 03:20 AM
So because he is rich he should be held to a higher standard than you? Its OK for you to 'not avoid write offs' but he SHOULD avoid them?

Why would you blame him for following laws made by OTHER PEOPLE?

Do you actually think a person like Romney , given all of his charities and business dealings would do ANYTHING other than 100% try his best to get the economy moving and get you into a better position to make more money?

Its almost like there is a culture of blaming the people who are successful instead of trying to emulate them and learn from them.

Being angry at others for their success? Why? Truly baffling.

We should all use sham charitable trusts to avoid paying taxes? The discussion isn't work hard and reap the reward, it's how to take a bunch of money and hide it from taxes.

Pawnmower
11-05-2012, 03:23 AM
We should all use sham charitable trusts to avoid paying taxes? The discussion isn't work hard and reap the reward, it's how to take a bunch of money and hide it from taxes.

If I was your lawyer / tax adviser / accountant I would feel like I wasn't doing my job properly if I didn't make available every possible opportunity for you to keep YOUR money that YOU earned and avoid paying taxes on it.

Yes HIDE it from taxes. Isn't that what you already said YOU do as well? (Along with every other person in this country)

If it is legal, why wouldn't you ?

blaise
11-05-2012, 05:58 AM
I'm certainly not complaining, don't have a problem with it, and don't think it's an issue. It sounds great to me. No need to project.

Right. That was your motive for starting the thread.

Mr. Flopnuts
11-05-2012, 06:26 AM
The fact that anyone would think that anybody's method for paying taxes within legal means is an issue shows how fucked up politics has become.

Disagree on political positions. I don't know why anybody gives a shit about this position. It's pretty amazing that this issue has raised 100 times more scrutiny than Libya.

Fuck politics. This is what pisses me off about the tax code. It needs to be fixed. Good on him for finding a way to dodge his responsibility to this country. That's fucking capitalism really. But the tax code needs to be completely eliminated revamped.

Mr. Flopnuts
11-05-2012, 06:29 AM
So because he is rich he should be held to a higher standard than you? Its OK for you to 'not avoid write offs' but he SHOULD avoid them?

Why would you blame him for following laws made by OTHER PEOPLE?

Do you actually think a person like Romney , given all of his charities and business dealings would do ANYTHING other than 100% try his best to get the economy moving and get you into a better position to make more money?

Its almost like there is a culture of blaming the people who are successful instead of trying to emulate them and learn from them.

Being angry at others for their success? Why? Truly baffling.

It's a little long, but it's worth listening too.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/uQpXybTnGVg" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

patteeu
11-05-2012, 06:43 AM
We should all use sham charitable trusts to avoid paying taxes? The discussion isn't work hard and reap the reward, it's how to take a bunch of money and hide it from taxes.

You're a joke.

BucEyedPea
11-05-2012, 06:45 AM
**** politics. This is what pisses me off about the tax code. It needs to be fixed. Good on him for finding a way to dodge his responsibility to this country. That's ****ing capitalism really. But the tax code needs to be completely eliminated revamped.

He's now dodging his responsibility to this country? Who decides what that is? Certainly, the Constitution is silent on that. I think you're being sarcastic. Right?

And, NO, that is NOT capitalism. That's the tax code.

What are your ideas on reforming the tax code then?

patteeu
11-05-2012, 06:46 AM
**** politics. This is what pisses me off about the tax code. It needs to be fixed. Good on him for finding a way to dodge his responsibility to this country. That's ****ing capitalism really. But the tax code needs to be completely eliminated revamped.

Dodge his responsibility? You're a joke too.

Ace Gunner
11-05-2012, 06:47 AM
rich people are so cool.

patteeu
11-05-2012, 06:52 AM
Right. That was your motive for starting the thread.

Yeah, he just thought it sounded like a brilliant tax move. He's a big fan of high stakes accounting techniques.

patteeu
11-05-2012, 06:58 AM
Because the trust’s investments have been earning a return far below its annual payouts to the Romneys, its principal has dwindled rapidly.

In 2001, five years after it was established, the trust had a value of between $750,000 and $1.25 million. Since then, it has pursued a conservative investment strategy -- regardless of the ups and downs of the stock market -- buying a mix of money- market funds, federally-backed bonds and federal bond funds. Since 2007, it has moved its assets entirely into cash. By 2011, its investments earned a return of $48, down from between $60,001 and $100,000 in 2001.

It's a shame that the Pelosi/Reid/Obama economy has forced the trustee to keep the principal sheltered from the storm in cash. Imagine all of the fixed income seniors who have seen their retirement funds subjected to the same battering. We need a change of leadership.

Mr. Flopnuts
11-05-2012, 07:00 AM
He's now dodging his responsibility to this country? Who decides what that is? Certainly, the Constitution is silent on that. I think you're being sarcastic. Right?

And, NO, that is NOT capitalism. That's the tax code.

What are your ideas on reforming the tax code then?

I had hoped that my strike of the word eliminated would make the sarcasm more apparent.

BucEyedPea
11-05-2012, 07:36 AM
I had hoped that my strike of the word eliminated would make the sarcasm more apparent.

I took it the other way at first. Then I saw your video which was the opposite message and got confused. So I went back and edited my post. Thanks for clarifying.

BigMeatballDave
11-05-2012, 07:43 AM
Fuck politics. This is what pisses me off about the tax code. It needs to be fixed. Good on him for finding a way to dodge his responsibility to this country. That's fucking capitalism really. But the tax code needs to be completely eliminated revamped.

Dodge?

What about lower income people who get way more back from the government than they pay in? My youngest sister is in this group.

That's federal welfare.

banyon
11-05-2012, 07:50 AM
This was a complicated tax scheme devised by Jonathan Blachtmachr of Milbank, Tweed, Hadley, & McCloy. He counsels many of the wealthiest people in the country and believed he found enough ambiguity in the terms used in the charitable giving portion of the code to create a shell that the IRS lawyers would have a difficult time proving up. It is detailed in David Cay Johnston's Perfectly Legal along with other tax avoidance schemes which you have to be wealthy to take advantage of.

Amnorix
11-05-2012, 07:50 AM
The problem here is in tax law loopholes, not in whether Romney took advantage of them. I personally think the charity exemption is one of the most abused in the tax code. It ought to be eliminated.

banyon
11-05-2012, 07:51 AM
Dodge his responsibility? You're a joke too.

If he felt everything was above board and not objectionable, then we probably would've seen a few more years of those returns.

patteeu
11-05-2012, 08:07 AM
This was a complicated tax scheme devised by Jonathan Blachtmachr of Milbank, Tweed, Hadley, & McCloy. He counsels many of the wealthiest people in the country and believed he found enough ambiguity in the terms used in the charitable giving portion of the code to create a shell that the IRS lawyers would have a difficult time proving up. It is detailed in David Cay Johnston's Perfectly Legal along with other tax avoidance schemes which you have to be wealthy to take advantage of.

Why do you have to be wealthy to take advantage of them? (Serious question)

Typically, these types of tax reduction strategies are only useful for the wealthy because we have a progressive tax system. I don't know if that's the case here or not, but if you get rid of progressivity, suddenly charitable deductions and tax free municipal bonds are worth the same to poor and rich alike.

patteeu
11-05-2012, 08:08 AM
The problem here is in tax law loopholes, not in whether Romney took advantage of them. I personally think the charity exemption is one of the most abused in the tax code. It ought to be eliminated.

Bravo :clap:

Hog Farmer
11-05-2012, 08:21 AM
Just another reason for Romney to be President, he understands laws and has run business. What has Obama done ???? Oh yeah !

Chiefshrink
11-05-2012, 08:26 AM
Just playin by the rules already set in place. Sounds like a smart business man to me:clap:

Amnorix
11-05-2012, 08:29 AM
Why do you have to be wealthy to take advantage of them? (Serious question)

Typically, these types of tax reduction strategies are only useful for the wealthy because we have a progressive tax system. I don't know if that's the case here or not, but if you get rid of progressivity, suddenly charitable deductions and tax free municipal bonds are worth the same to poor and rich alike.


Well, no, not really. A guy with, say, $75K in annual income has alot less to shelter than Mr. $7.5 million of income wants to shelter, right?

And Mr. $75K can't possibly afford attorneys from Milbank, TWeed, etc. And if a tax avoidance strategy becomes so mass marketed that every fool is using it, then they'll have to change the tax code to deal with it.

BucEyedPea
11-05-2012, 08:30 AM
Just another reason for Romney to be President, he understands laws and has run business. What has Obama done ???? Oh yeah !

Don't forget that spending and borrowing are constitutionally controlled by the House of Representatives, not the president. The House is, and will remain, Republican-led.

Chiefshrink
11-05-2012, 08:31 AM
Oh BTW 'Zit Monkey' betcha dollars to donuts there are far more Marxist Dems who literally cheat and lie on their taxes and don't play by the rules set in place than do Repubs. Would love to audit OMarxist, Michelle, Joe, Harry, and Nancy to see if they are playing by the rules:rolleyes:

BucEyedPea
11-05-2012, 08:34 AM
Oh BTW 'Zit Monkey' betcha dollars to donuts there are far more Marxist Dems who literally cheat and lie on their taxes and don't play by the rules set in place than do Repubs. Would love to audit OMarxist, Michelle, Joe, Harry, and Nancy to see if they are playing by the rules:rolleyes:

Like Timothy Geithner?

Democrats LOVE taxes. They just don't want to pay them. That's for other people.

Chiefshrink
11-05-2012, 08:39 AM
Like Timothy Geithner?

Democrats LOVE taxes. They just don't want to pay them. That's for other people.

Precisely:clap:

blaise
11-05-2012, 08:43 AM
We've got millions of people leeching off taxpayers and we're supposed to believe that the problem is some guy giving enough money to charity to avoid taxes.

stevieray
11-05-2012, 08:49 AM
The fact that anyone would think that anybody's method for paying taxes within legal means is an issue shows how ****ed up politics has become.

Disagree on political positions. I don't know why anybody gives a shit about this position. It's pretty amazing that this issue has raised 100 times more scrutiny than Libya.

because this a conservative board., you didn't get the memo?

patteeu
11-05-2012, 08:50 AM
Well, no, not really. A guy with, say, $75K in annual income has alot less to shelter than Mr. $7.5 million of income wants to shelter, right?

And Mr. $75K can't possibly afford attorneys from Milbank, TWeed, etc. And if a tax avoidance strategy becomes so mass marketed that every fool is using it, then they'll have to change the tax code to deal with it.

Can you give me an example of a tax shelter that would make sense for Mr. $75K that he can't get into just because he can't afford a lawyer?

Direckshun
11-05-2012, 08:58 AM
Some news breaking out today that Romney avoided 80 million euro in dividend taxes using a route through the Netherlands.

Direckshun
11-05-2012, 08:59 AM
http://www.electoral-vote.com/evp2012/Info/romney-taxes.html

The offshore fiscal routes Mitt Romney uses also go through The Netherlands. The private equity fund Bain Capital, in which the presidential candidate participates, uses the Dutch route to evade about 80 million euro ($102 million) of taxes on dividends.
Presidential candidate Mitt Romney profits from the fiscal route the private equity fund Bain Capital uses via the Netherlands. For the American Bain, founded by Romney, the Netherlands is a part of the large network of international holding companies and trust funds.

By routing his investment in 2004 in the Irish pharmaceutical company Warner Chilcott through the Netherlands, Bain manages to evade dividends and capital gains taxes. Since the shares have been kept in the Netherlands, about $389 million in dividends have been paid, and Bain has sold shares for about $334 million in Warner Chilcott shares.

This has been found out by Follow the Money for the Dutch newspaper De Volkskrant, by looking at documents sent to the SEC, by studying tax return forms submitted by Romney, by studying confidential Bain documents leaked by the techblog Gawker, and by data from the Dutch Chamber of Commerce.

80 Million Euros

According to fiscal specialist Jos Peters, who works as an advisor to large private equity funds, Bain used the Dutch route to evade about 80 million Euro tax on dividends. "Bain also won't have to pay a lot of Irish capital gains taxes when they sell the shares", Peters says. Neither Bain, nor the Romney campain has responded to repeated requests for a reaction.

Although Romney left Bain in 1999, he remained as a participant. As such he invested, with his wife Ann Romney, in the Bain Capital Fund VIII in 2004. This fund, registered in the Cayman Islands, has a large stake in Warner Chilcott. Out of the 37.5 million shares owned by Bain in september 2010, 25.7 million are owned by Bain Capital Fund VIII

Romney mentions in his 'public financial disclosure report' that his shares in Bain Capital Fun VIII are worth "more than a million". Tax returns by Romney and his wife show that in 2010 and 2011 they received about 2.04 million dollar in dividends from the fund. Their shares gained in value about 5.5 million dollar in the same period.

Romney receives part of the large returns by the Bain Capital Fund VIII in the form of shares. On March 10, 2011, Romney donated 19,799 shares of Warner Chilcott (valued at about $450,000) to his son's non-profit, the Tyler Foundation. By doing this Romney did not have to pay taxes in the USA. Gifts in the form of shares to dedicated non-profit organisations are exempt from capital gains taxes. The gift is also a deductible on his own tax returns.

389 Million Dollars

Since 2010 Bain Capital has parked the shares owned in Warner Chilcott in a Dutch holding. From the start, large payments to Bain Capital have been made. Warner Chilcott paid 389 million dollar in dividends in august 2010. Bain also sold 334 million dollar worth of shares in Warner Chilcott.

By using a a so called participants deduction in the Netherlands and Luxembourg, Bain avoids tax on dividends and capital gains and routes the proceeds of the shares in the Cayman Islands. The participants deduction means that profit from a share ownership worth more than 5% of a company is not taxed in the Netherlands. Because of this rule the Netherlands is a popular place for holding companies in multinationals and financial funds. "We are world champion in participants deductions," says Jos Peters, a tax expert at Merlyn.

Romney has been fielding critical questions by the press and opponents for several months now in the USA about the amount of taxes he pays. In September Romney was pressured to publish information about his tax returns. It was already known that he profits from ingenieus tax constructions via the Cayman Islands, Bermuda and Luxembourg

The Netherlands so far was not on that list, but it now appears it should have been listed. The Netherlands as a tax evasion route were mentioned earlier in the news about the US coffee company Starbucks, causing much consternation in the U.K.

BucEyedPea
11-05-2012, 08:59 AM
Oh the envy that is reeking in that post.

patteeu
11-05-2012, 09:07 AM
Some news breaking out today that Romney avoided 80 million euro in dividend taxes using a route through the Netherlands.

Wouldn't it be great if US tax law encouraged people to route their money here? We aren't going to get that with an Obama presidency.

JonesCrusher
11-05-2012, 09:08 AM
Some news breaking out today that Romney avoided 80 million euro in dividend taxes using a route through the Netherlands.

Taxers, the lefts version of birthers.

Amnorix
11-05-2012, 09:09 AM
Wouldn't it be great if US tax law encouraged people to route their money here? We aren't going to get that with an Obama presidency.


Would you like to have the Netherland's military also?

BucEyedPea
11-05-2012, 09:10 AM
Taxers, the lefts version of birthers.

Excellent! ROFL

BucEyedPea
11-05-2012, 09:11 AM
Would you like to have the Netherland's military also?

No, just Switzerland's. :clap:

King_Chief_Fan
11-05-2012, 09:12 AM
in other words, he used the tax laws that exist to avoid paying? I think that is good that he knows how to manage his money effectively.

The thing wrong is the tax laws/codes. Change those.

banyon
11-05-2012, 09:15 AM
Wouldn't it be great if US tax law encouraged people to route their money here? We aren't going to get that with an Obama presidency.

How are they going to do that? The caymans set their rates as close to zero as you can get, because they don't have to pay for much infrastructure. They've essentially won the global "race to the bottom" by catering themselves to this niche of wealthy tax avoiders who like secrecy about what they are doingn

patteeu
11-05-2012, 09:16 AM
Would you like to have the Netherland's military also?

No thanks. But that's something Obama may actually try to deliver.

BucEyedPea
11-05-2012, 09:23 AM
No thanks. But that's something Obama may actually try to deliver.

The Rs are really promoting false talking points on Obama not spending on the military.
The Obama administration "spent more in real terms on military spending than at any time since WWII."~J. Andrew Person, U.S. Army officer and paratrooper from 2001–2006, including year-long tours in Iraq and Afghanistan; now a fellow with the Truman National Security Project,

Romney's NC advisors simply want to spend on more increases in military spending.

Garcia Bronco
11-05-2012, 09:35 AM
The problem here is in tax law loopholes, not in whether Romney took advantage of them. I personally think the charity exemption is one of the most abused in the tax code. It ought to be eliminated.

I disagree. I think its best if people can decide where their money goes in the place of income taxes.

Amnorix
11-05-2012, 09:38 AM
I disagree. I think its best if people can decide where their money goes in the place of income taxes.


Nothing personal, but that system is completely inimical to the republic that we are. You'll basically be eliminating most of the power of the elected representatives. While I'm certain that has quite a bit of appeal for various reasons, it's not really the system we have.

Besides, the federal government is so complicated, it's functionally impossible.

Amnorix
11-05-2012, 09:39 AM
in other words, he used the tax laws that exist to avoid paying? I think that is good that he knows how to manage his money effectively.

The thing wrong is the tax laws/codes. Change those.



Good job proving I was on fake-ignore before. :p

htismaqe
11-05-2012, 09:41 AM
I hate rich people. I hate rich people so bad.

Anybody have the winning lottery numbers?

J Diddy
11-05-2012, 09:46 AM
He's now dodging his responsibility to this country? Who decides what that is? Certainly, the Constitution is silent on that. I think you're being sarcastic. Right?

And, NO, that is NOT capitalism. That's the tax code.

What are your ideas on reforming the tax code then?

One of these days you're going to learn that absence of presence in the constitution has more to do with unseen events then with design.

HonestChieffan
11-05-2012, 09:48 AM
These have been around for years. Most non profits and I would bet nearly all Universities have multiple opportunities to use a CRT to make donations. And they are not just rich folks that do it. You nitwits need to understand just a tiny bit before you go off on something like this.

J Diddy
11-05-2012, 09:51 AM
These have been around for years. Most non profits and I would bet nearly all Universities have multiple opportunities to use a CRT to make donations. And they are not just rich folks that do it. You nitwits need to understand just a tiny bit before you go off on something like this.

I think the shock is in the extreme amounts.

HonestChieffan
11-05-2012, 09:59 AM
I think the shock is in the extreme amounts.



Yea. He was way to generous. Should have given a lot less like a democrat.

J Diddy
11-05-2012, 10:01 AM
what’s going to go to charity is probably close to nothing

Yea. He was way to generous. Should have given a lot less like a democrat.

Yep. Sounds real generous.

mikey23545
11-05-2012, 10:02 AM
Is this the November Surprise?

vailpass
11-05-2012, 10:23 AM
Good. I want a Potus who knows how to handle money as opposed to one who only knows how to hand out money.

HonestChieffan
11-05-2012, 10:27 AM
Yep. Sounds real generous.


Here you go. You can get yours set up anytime...http://pittstate.giftlegacy.com/?pageID=13

vailpass
11-05-2012, 10:29 AM
Some news breaking out today that Romney avoided 80 million euro in dividend taxes using a route through the Netherlands.

Excellent; Romney knows how to navigate the foreign currency markets. Yet another area in which he has far more practical experience than obama will ever have.

HonestChieffan
11-05-2012, 10:37 AM
He avoided 80 million euros in taxes? Good Christ, what was the gross amount that had dividends that would generate 80 million euros in taxes? .......I think a little bullshit call is in order here....

Brainiac
11-05-2012, 10:39 AM
Watching the wealthy take advantage of monetary loopholes that aren't available to the average person is just ****ing annoying. Like people buying hummers on the truck credit a few years back, or using cash for clunkers to fund their new jaguar. It's legal, I'm not above it - but I'm not running for public office. It's just another reason why Mitt is so damn annoying and a lot of people will never identify with him or ever think he gives a **** about anyone below the financial top 2% in the country.
You want to know what's annoying?

It's ****ing annoying when the ****ing President orders Navy SEALs to stand down when they could have saved the lives of the four Americans who died in Libya. It's ****ing annoying when the President lies to the people and blames the terrorist attack on a YouTube video because he doesn't want people to know that Al Qaeda is still a threat.

And it's ****ing annoying that the mainstream media allows him to get away with bullshit like that.

If you're annoyed that Mitt Romney didn't pay enough taxes to satisfy you, you're concentrating on the wrong things.

htismaqe
11-05-2012, 10:48 AM
Man I just hate rich people...

Anybody got those lottery numbers yet?

BucEyedPea
11-05-2012, 11:16 AM
Steve Jobs even in death! Death and taxes....Tee Hee!
Then Amazon, Starbucks, Facebook and Google.

Apple Paid Just 2% Tax On Overseas Profits

http://news.sky.com/story/1006814/apple-paid-just-2-percent-tax-on-overseas-profits


Apple paid less than 2% tax on its overseas profits, documents have revealed, after the technology giant slashed the amount foreign taxmen receive.

The iPad and iPhone creator paid $713bn (£445m) in corporation tax outside the US in the year to September 29 - despite foreign pre-tax earnings soaring more than 50% to$36.8bn (£23bn).

Papers filed with US regulators revealed Apple's overseas tax rate fell to 1.9%, compared to 2.5% the previous year amid a headline corporation tax rate in the UK of 24% and 35% in the US.

The slide in its overseas tax rate comes as the company sold 125 million iPhones, 58 million iPads and 13.5 million MacBook laptops worldwide.
Apple is the latest company to come under scrutiny for overseas tax payments after Amazon, Starbucks, Facebook and Google.


AWESOME freedom fighters....insurgents!

BWillie
11-05-2012, 12:04 PM
That rich bastard Romney. He gives 30%+ of his earnings to charity. What an asshole. I mean he donates millions and millions of dollars to charity, but it lowers his effective tax rate! I can't believe he is so uncaring!

Bump
11-05-2012, 12:10 PM
Man I just hate rich people...

Anybody got those lottery numbers yet?

It's not about hating rich people. It's about the people and how little we matter to our government. Only the super rich are allowed to evade taxes and you want a scumbag like that to control our country? What do you think his agenda is going to be? It's going to be 100% focused on getting the rich, richer.

If I tried to evade my little tiny bit of taxes, I would be put in jail.

J Diddy
11-05-2012, 12:10 PM
That rich bastard Romney. He gives 30%+ of his earnings to charity. What an asshole. I mean he donates millions and millions of dollars to charity, but it lowers his effective tax rate! I can't believe he is so uncaring!

That is not the issue. The issue is he's paying less on taxes because what he gives to charity is not actually what they get. Therefore, he's claim tax exempt status on money that shouldn't be tax exempt.

HonestChieffan
11-05-2012, 12:11 PM
That is not the issue. The issue is he's paying less on taxes because what he gives to charity is not actually what they get. Therefore, he's claim tax exempt status on money that shouldn't be tax exempt.


You dont quite understand how they work do you.

J Diddy
11-05-2012, 12:15 PM
You dont quite understand how they work do you.


Highly possible, but that is what I got from the story. Please feel free to correct me where I'm wrong.

blaise
11-05-2012, 12:17 PM
It's not up to Romney to do the IRS's work for them. If they have an error in their code, then it's their problem, not his.

cosmo20002
11-05-2012, 12:20 PM
That rich bastard Romney. He gives 30%+ of his earnings to charity. What an asshole. I mean he donates millions and millions of dollars to charity, but it lowers his effective tax rate! I can't believe he is so uncaring!

Well, to the Mormon church. That's the price if you want your own planet.

htismaqe
11-05-2012, 12:21 PM
It's not about hating rich people. It's about the people and how little we matter to our government. Only the super rich are allowed to evade taxes and you want a scumbag like that to control our country? What do you think his agenda is going to be? It's going to be 100% focused on getting the rich, richer.

If I tried to evade my little tiny bit of taxes, I would be put in jail.

I hear it here every day in UAW country. They HATE rich people and Romney is rich, so they hate him.

They don't even CARE about his agenda - he's rich, hate him.

And then they buy their lottery ticket, presumably so that they can become rich.

And if Romney is a "scumbag" what does that make Obama? You want to talk about somebody who only cares about himself...

vailpass
11-05-2012, 12:22 PM
It's not about hating rich people. It's about the people and how little we matter to our government. Only the super rich are allowed to evade taxes and you want a scumbag like that to control our country? What do you think his agenda is going to be? It's going to be 100% focused on getting the rich, richer.

If I tried to evade my little tiny bit of taxes, I would be put in jail.

That is not the issue. The issue is he's paying less on taxes because what he gives to charity is not actually what they get. Therefore, he's claim tax exempt status on money that shouldn't be tax exempt.

LMAO Know how I know?

blaise
11-05-2012, 12:27 PM
He shouldn't be able to give that money to charity to avoid paying taxes that Democrats can use to dole out to their voters.

J Diddy
11-05-2012, 12:30 PM
He shouldn't be able to give that money to charity to avoid paying taxes that Democrats can use to dole out to their voters.

Except it is not given to charity. It's put into a charitable remaining trust which allows it to grow tax free and he only pays taxes on what he pulls out of it.

patteeu
11-05-2012, 12:33 PM
It's not about hating rich people. It's about the people and how little we matter to our government. Only the super rich are allowed to evade taxes and you want a scumbag like that to control our country? What do you think his agenda is going to be? It's going to be 100% focused on getting the rich, richer.

If I tried to evade my little tiny bit of taxes, I would be put in jail.

Anyone can "evade" (actually "avoid", but you haven't ever quibbled about grammar so why should I quibble about vocabulary) taxes by simply refusing to work for pay. Go for it.

blaise
11-05-2012, 12:53 PM
Except it is not given to charity. It's put into a charitable remaining trust which allows it to grow tax free and he only pays taxes on what he pulls out of it.

Well, good for him then.

Bump
11-05-2012, 12:54 PM
I hear it here every day in UAW country. They HATE rich people and Romney is rich, so they hate him.

They don't even CARE about his agenda - he's rich, hate him.

And then they buy their lottery ticket, presumably so that they can become rich.

And if Romney is a "scumbag" what does that make Obama? You want to talk about somebody who only cares about himself...

Obama is a piece of shit too. I guess it's fitting that loop hole abusers rise to power.

Hoover
11-05-2012, 12:59 PM
I want to be Mitt Romney someday.

Obama's policies would never allow that to happen.

So not only does the president campaign around the country saying his opponent is a $hit bag, but he also wants to make it impossible for the rest of us to create that kind of wealth. I'll shut up now and take my purple participation ribbon, err welfare check.

vailpass
11-05-2012, 01:01 PM
I want to be Mitt Romney someday.

Obama's policies would never allow that to happen.

So not only does the president campaign around the country saying his opponent is a $hit bag, but he also wants to make it impossible for the rest of us to create that kind of wealth. I'll shut up now and take my purple participation ribbon, err welfare check.

I'm guessing there is no one in this shit hole that is as well-informed and professionally politically active as you. I don't blame you for shutting up and staying out of here but it's too bad for the rest of us.

RINGLEADER
11-05-2012, 01:02 PM
This is the left's birther issue...

vailpass
11-05-2012, 01:05 PM
This is the left's birther issue...

OMG Have you heard? Mitt Romney followed the tax law!!!111!!!

cosmo20002
11-05-2012, 01:05 PM
I want to be Mitt Romney someday.



You seem to have achieved the out-of-touch tool aspect pretty well.

Yeah, it is Obama's policies that are preventing you from making a billion dollars.

Hoover
11-05-2012, 01:06 PM
I'm guessing there is no one in this shit hole that is as well-informed and professionally politically active as you. I don't blame you for shutting up and staying out of here but it's too bad for the rest of us.
Politics is my work, I visit the Planet to get away from it. That said, politics is also my crack cocaine so its hard for me to stay away from this page when the election is so close.

Hoover
11-05-2012, 01:08 PM
You seem to have achieved the out-of-touch tool aspect pretty well.

Yeah, it is Obama's policies that are preventing you from making a billion dollars.
Awesome. That's what I was going for.

I was speaking of the policies that Obama would like to implement, not the ones that are currently holding me down. :)

cosmo20002
11-05-2012, 01:08 PM
This is the left's birther issue...

How is continued insistence on there being a conspiracy to conceal the president's place of birth through forged birth certificates, social secuity numbers, selective service papers, passports, etc. at all comparable?

vailpass
11-05-2012, 01:11 PM
Politics is my work, I visit the Planet to get away from it. That said, politics is also my crack cocaine so its hard for me to stay away from this page when the election is so close.

Understood on both counts.

Hoover
11-05-2012, 01:12 PM
I think every candidate should have to prove their citizenship before becoming a candidate since it's required by our constitution. I also think people should pay their taxes, but don't bitch about me using a loophole that allows me to pay for my monster truck that I use for my business. Loopholes are not illegal.

vailpass
11-05-2012, 01:13 PM
You seem to have achieved the out-of-touch tool aspect pretty well.

Yeah, it is Obama's policies that are preventing you from making a billion dollars.

Listening to you tell Hoover about policy is like listening to you tell LVNHACK, Radar Chief and Listo & RNR about "leave no one behind".

You poor outside-looking-in without a clue in the world bastard.

cosmo20002
11-05-2012, 01:37 PM
Listening to you tell Hoover about policy is like listening to you tell LVNHACK, Radar Chief and Listo & RNR about "leave no one behind".

You poor outside-looking-in without a clue in the world bastard.

Anyone claiming Obama is keeping them from being like Mitt Romney loses all credibility. And he's claiming it based on what Obama would LIKE to do Anyone claiming Obama or any president is what is keeping them from success is pretty much a loser.

mlyonsd
11-05-2012, 01:38 PM
How anyone could vote for a proven failed and incapable leader over a success like Romney baffles the shit out of me.

DaFace
11-05-2012, 01:41 PM
This is the left's birther issue...

Agreed.

htismaqe
11-05-2012, 01:42 PM
You seem to have achieved the out-of-touch tool aspect pretty well.

Yeah, it is Obama's policies that are preventing you from making a billion dollars.

The American dream is bullshit. I'll NEVER make a billion dollars, regardless of who is President.

That being said, Obama's policies absolutely ARE preventing me from making my full earnings because I get paid 40% on commission and my customers are not investing and have said they won't invest until something changes in Washington.

Hoover
11-05-2012, 01:42 PM
Dude, go check your blood pressure.

I was being a smart ass, even though there is some truth to what I said.

vailpass
11-05-2012, 01:44 PM
Anyone claiming Obama is keeping them from being like Mitt Romney loses all credibility. And he's claiming it based on what Obama would LIKE to do Anyone claiming Obama or any president is what is keeping them from success is pretty much a loser.

When you tell people they don't have credibility with you do you realize you are paying them a compliment?

BucEyedPea
11-05-2012, 01:45 PM
When you tell people they don't have credibility with you do you realize you are paying them a compliment?

You speak sooth! ROFL

patteeu
11-05-2012, 01:50 PM
Anyone claiming Obama is keeping them from being like Mitt Romney loses all credibility. And he's claiming it based on what Obama would LIKE to do Anyone claiming Obama or any president is what is keeping them from success is pretty much a loser.

Hoover wasn't saying that Obama keeps him from being like Romney. The obstacles Obama wants to put in his path are sufficient to keep almost everyone from being like Romney, although they aren't the only obstacles that might do so. For example, in my case, I'm not nearly as smart, talented, hard-working, or handsome as Mitt Romney and I wouldn't be nearly as good at bringing democrats and Republicans together to work on our nations problems as he will be. I'm more like Barack Obama.

cosmo20002
11-05-2012, 02:00 PM
The American dream is bullshit. I'll NEVER make a billion dollars, regardless of who is President.

That being said, Obama's policies absolutely ARE preventing me from making my full earnings because I get paid 40% on commission and my customers are not investing and have said they won't invest until something changes in Washington.

I'd day this sounds like bullshit, but I'm curious what change they are talking about. They want to change back to prior to Obama getting there?

blaise
11-05-2012, 02:02 PM
"How DARE Romney legally pay what he's required! How DAAARE he!"

cosmo20002
11-05-2012, 02:03 PM
I was being a smart ass, even though there is some truth to what I said.

I accounted for that, and like you said, you still say there is truth in that Obama is holding you back--based on what he would like to do. Maybe you're not normally one of them, but that sure sounds like something the worst of the right-wing nutjobs say on here.

cosmo20002
11-05-2012, 02:05 PM
Hoover wasn't saying that Obama keeps him from being like Romney.



I want to be Mitt Romney someday.

Obama's policies would never allow that to happen.

So not only does the president campaign around the country saying his opponent is a $hit bag, but he also wants to make it impossible for the rest of us to create that kind of wealth. I'll shut up now and take my purple participation ribbon, err welfare check.


OK.

vailpass
11-05-2012, 02:07 PM
Hoover wasn't saying that Obama keeps him from being like Romney. The obstacles Obama wants to put in his path are sufficient to keep almost everyone from being like Romney, although they aren't the only obstacles that might do so. For example, in my case, I'm not nearly as smart, talented, hard-working, or handsome as Mitt Romney and I wouldn't be nearly as good at bringing democrats and Republicans together to work on our nations problems as he will be. I'm more like Barack Obama.
LMAO

Hoover
11-05-2012, 02:13 PM
Does Obama want to increase taxes? Yes
Did Obama implement a huge new entitlement program that I have to help pay for? Yes
Does Obama support cap and trade that would increase the cost of production in every industry? Yes.
Has Obama instituted more regulations and red tape? Yes.
Did Obama grow the size of the deficit which will cost us all? Yes.
Does Obama oppose making needed reforms to other entitlement programs that would keep them solvent for the next generation? Yes
Will I ever see a penny that I contributed to SS? Probably not.

dirk digler
11-05-2012, 02:21 PM
This is the left's birther issue...

meh. I don't have a major problem with Romney legally avoiding paying taxes. I think it does look bad for him when he says all these great things about America yet hides his money overseas. Of course he did the same thing with Vietnam, he hid himself overseas.

Of course this doesn't mean their aren't legitimate questions like if he took tax amnesty in 2009 (I suspect he did) and how did he get his IRA so big (Romney refuses to answer that question). Congress is looking into the latter problem.

cosmo20002
11-05-2012, 04:22 PM
Sounds like a pretty sweet deal.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-10-29/romney-avoids-taxes-via-loophole-cutting-mormon-donations.html

Romney Avoids Taxes via Loophole Cutting Mormon Donations
By Jesse Drucker - Oct 28, 2012 11:01 PM CT



So, Harry Reid was correct.

BucEyedPea
11-05-2012, 04:59 PM
Well, to the Mormon church. That's the price if you want your own planet.

Someone here owns a planet. Actually two and they're not even a Mormon! :p

htismaqe
11-05-2012, 05:14 PM
I'd day this sounds like bullshit, but I'm curious what change they are talking about. They want to change back to prior to Obama getting there?

Obamacare is the single-biggest job-killing initiative there is.

The companies I work with estimate that it has DOUBLED their fully-loaded FTE costs.

vailpass
11-05-2012, 05:26 PM
Obamacare is the single-biggest job-killing initiative there is.

The companies I work with estimate that it has DOUBLED their fully-loaded FTE costs.

And when implemented it will either greatly reduce FTEs or cause employers to pay the fine and drop health insurance plans altogether.
Of course, the latter is exactly what big government Dems and obama want.

cosmo20002
11-05-2012, 05:30 PM
Obamacare is the single-biggest job-killing initiative there is.

The companies I work with estimate that it has DOUBLED their fully-loaded FTE costs.

Bullshit. And if even if Romney were to win (ironically, the guy who invented it), it's not going anywhere.

htismaqe
11-05-2012, 05:50 PM
Bullshit. And if even if Romney were to win (ironically, the guy who invented it), it's not going anywhere.

Exactly the response I expected. You don't want to believe it so I'm automatically wrong. At least you're proving that narrow-minded absolutism isn't the sole province of the right.

Shaid
11-05-2012, 09:13 PM
What tax credits does Romney want to take away from anyone?

It's basically what he said in the debates when he was throwing out random numbers - "Throw a number out there, $25,000, $50,000." He basically said you could get a credit for going to school or for kids, etc. but not both. Families out there who are working, with kids, and going to school at the same time are pretty strapped. If you are working hard for your future and being responsible with raising your kids at the same time, you deserve a break. By the way, those credits go to rich people too and that's totally fine. If the rich can use ridiculous amounts of loopholes, etc. to keep their massive incomes at a ridiculously low rate and that's ok, why is it not ok to let working class families keep a little more of their money in their pockets so they can afford to fix their car or hopefully buy a new one. Doesn't the increase in production and sales we have as a result benefit the rich as well? That's the difference in the economic philosophies.

You also have to understand that the bigger your business is, etc., the more you benefit from the government. Roads and infrastructure allow you to move your products and get inventory. They allow people an easy way to get to your store. The benefits are a lot more the larger you get and that's why you should pay a little more.

The other philosophy behind it is that if you allow people to pay almost nothing on investments like stocks, it'll encourage investment in large corporations, etc. There is really very little reason to invest in small businesses starting up because you can make so much more with large corporations through stocks than partnerships. It generates more Wal-marts and makes it tougher for smaller businesses to start up.

patteeu
11-05-2012, 09:22 PM
It's basically what he said in the debates when he was throwing out random numbers - "Throw a number out there, $25,000, $50,000." He basically said you could get a credit for going to school or for kids, etc. but not both. Families out there who are working, with kids, and going to school at the same time are pretty strapped. If you are working hard for your future and being responsible with raising your kids at the same time, you deserve a break. By the way, those credits go to rich people too and that's totally fine. If the rich can use ridiculous amounts of loopholes, etc. to keep their massive incomes at a ridiculously low rate and that's ok, why is it not ok to let working class families keep a little more of their money in their pockets so they can afford to fix their car or hopefully buy a new one. Doesn't the increase in production and sales we have as a result benefit the rich as well? That's the difference in the economic philosophies.

You also have to understand that the bigger your business is, etc., the more you benefit from the government. Roads and infrastructure allow you to move your products and get inventory. They allow people an easy way to get to your store. The benefits are a lot more the larger you get and that's why you should pay a little more.

The other philosophy behind it is that if you allow people to pay almost nothing on investments like stocks, it'll encourage investment in large corporations, etc. There is really very little reason to invest in small businesses starting up because you can make so much more with large corporations through stocks than partnerships. It generates more Wal-marts and makes it tougher for smaller businesses to start up.

I don't think you understand what Romney was talking about. When Romney said to throw a number out there, he was saying that instead of eliminating specific deductions, you could reduce the ability of high income folks to take a lot of tax deductions while not impacting the middle class if you allowed any of the existing tax deductions to be taken up to a modest cap.

Successful businesses may benefit more from infrastructure, but they already pay more taxes so that's not necessarily a good argument for raising their taxes further.

lostcause
11-06-2012, 01:03 AM
You want to know what's annoying?

It's ****ing annoying when the ****ing President orders Navy SEALs to stand down when they could have saved the lives of the four Americans who died in Libya. It's ****ing annoying when the President lies to the people and blames the terrorist attack on a YouTube video because he doesn't want people to know that Al Qaeda is still a threat.

And it's ****ing annoying that the mainstream media allows him to get away with bullshit like that.

If you're annoyed that Mitt Romney didn't pay enough taxes to satisfy you, you're concentrating on the wrong things.

I find all rich people who evade taxes that I pay annoying. It wouldn't cause me to not vote for Romney. For me, there are plenty of reasons to choose Obama over Romney, the tax thing is just annoying.

Pawnmower
11-06-2012, 01:15 AM
I find all rich people who evade taxes that I pay annoying. It wouldn't cause me to not vote for Romney. For me, there are plenty of reasons to choose Obama over Romney, the tax thing is just annoying.

Honestly I bet you are too fuckign stupid to name a tax a "rich person" avoids while you pay.

Please, let's hear it...

Name some taxes you are paying out the ass while the rich guy doesn't pay them.

I can't wait to hear this shit.

Please make a list.

lostcause
11-06-2012, 01:36 AM
Honestly I bet you are too ****ign stupid to name a tax a "rich person" avoids while you pay.

Please, let's hear it...

Name some taxes you are paying out the ass while the rich guy doesn't pay them.

I can't wait to hear this shit.

Please make a list.

I assume you mean foreign stupid, since you would be bright enough to spell your words correctly.

BigMeatballDave
11-06-2012, 01:42 AM
I assume you mean foreign stupid, since you would be bright enough to spell your words correctly.

:spock:

It appears to be a simple keystroke error.

Now, about that list...

lostcause
11-06-2012, 01:42 AM
Honestly I bet you are too ****ign stupid to name a tax a "rich person" avoids while you pay.

Please, let's hear it...

Name some taxes you are paying out the ass while the rich guy doesn't pay them.

I can't wait to hear this shit.

Please make a list.

To answer your question, it looks like he's evading either capital gains or income or both by setting up a sham charity. So I guess, capital gains and income tax is what I pay that he isn't paying.

BigMeatballDave
11-06-2012, 01:49 AM
To answer your question, it looks like he's evading either capital gains or income or both by setting up a sham charity. So I guess, capital gains and income tax is what I pay that he isn't paying.

Last I heard, he pays 14%.

Now that is a lower percentage than the working class.

He's still paying a TON in taxes. Way more than I will ever make in my lifetime.

Do you pay millions in taxes?

lostcause
11-06-2012, 01:52 AM
Last I heard, he pays 14%.

Now that is a lower percentage than the working class.

He's still paying a TON in taxes. Way more than I will ever make in my lifetime.

Do you pay millions in taxes?

Nope.

patteeu
11-06-2012, 05:56 AM
Last I heard, he pays 14%.

Now that is a lower percentage than the working class.

He's still paying a TON in taxes. Way more than I will ever make in my lifetime.

Do you pay millions in taxes?

That is *not* a lower percentage than the working class pays.

htismaqe
11-06-2012, 08:44 AM
Last I heard, he pays 14%.

Now that is a lower percentage than the working class.

He's still paying a TON in taxes. Way more than I will ever make in my lifetime.

Do you pay millions in taxes?

Capital gains <> income tax.

Brainiac
11-06-2012, 09:48 AM
Capital gains <> income tax.
You're right. The rate on capital gains should be lower than the rate on income tax, for reasons that have already been stated many times.

patteeu
11-06-2012, 10:12 AM
Capital gains <> income tax.

Cap gains taxes and ordinary income taxes are both a part of the individual income tax. And Romney's 14% effective rate includes both. Working class taxpayers generally pay significantly less than 14%.

philfree
11-06-2012, 11:46 AM
I've never understood all this crap. If Romney took advantage of the tax code and legally took his deductions why in the world should that be an issue? That's what smart business people do. If they don't then they're not smart. Who would want to cast their vote for someone who's not a good, smart business person?

htismaqe
11-06-2012, 12:23 PM
I've never understood all this crap. If Romney took advantage of the tax code and legally took his deductions why in the world should that be an issue?

Because he's rich and rich people are evil.

philfree
11-06-2012, 01:24 PM
Because he's rich and rich people are evil.

I'm not rich but I was as well as everybody else. We've become a country of jealous little cry babies.

Shaid
11-06-2012, 10:00 PM
I've never understood all this crap. If Romney took advantage of the tax code and legally took his deductions why in the world should that be an issue? That's what smart business people do. If they don't then they're not smart. Who would want to cast their vote for someone who's not a good, smart business person?

It is what smart people do, the problem is that there are so many loopholes in place for people to avoid taxes. That and the fact that he'd work to keep those loopholes in place.