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View Full Version : U.S. Issues **OFFICIAL** Illegal Immigration Reform Thread.


BigRedChief
11-11-2012, 10:51 AM
You know its coming. As soon as the fiscal cliff is finished, illegal immigration is next.

Sen. Graham and Sen. Shumar have already resumed their illegal immigration talks from two years ago. Both were on the sunday shows talking about the plan. Both are seeing a possible huge bi-partisan deal is now possible based on their earlier work form two years ago.

Main points of the deal:


Lock down the border. Spend whatever money and political will to truly stop the flow of people over our borders.
A nationwide verification of employment. The idea is to come up with some kind of non forgeable document. A E-Verify for immigrants.
Increase legal immigration, especially for scientists, engineers and other fields that benefit America or workers are in short supply, i.e. workers who pick our produce in the fields.
Stiff and severe penalties for businesses that hire illegals after the "E-Verify type" system is in place.
The Dream act is part of the total package.
Every illegal in the country is possible allowed to stay legally in the country. The conditions are:



They must enter into that "E-Verify type" system.
They are allowed to apply for citizenship but they go to the back of the line of people that already have green cards or have already applied for citizenship.
They must pay a fine for entering the country illegally.
They are allowed to stay as long until their citizenship paperwork is finalized, as long as they commit no crimes and pay all taxes that everyone else pays. Failure to so that = immediate deportation.
What crime is deportable is TBD.
Size of the fine is TBD.

The Gang of Six bipartisan proposal.

Today a group of powerful U.S. Senators announced they have agreed to a framework on comprehensive immigration (http://www.examiner.com/topic/immigration) reform. The bipartisan group includes Senators Chuck Schumer (D-NY), Dick Durbin (D-IL), Bob Menendez (D-NJ), Michael Bennett (D-CO), Lindsey Graham (R-SC), Marco Rubio (R-FL), John McCain (R-AZ), and Jeff Flake (R-AZ). The fact that both parties have agreed to the deal gives it much better prospects for passage.

Path to Citizenship


The bill would include a “tough, fair, and practical roadmap to address the status of unauthorized immigrants in the United States.” At the same time, the framework states that this path to citizenship would be “contingent upon our success in securing our borders and addressing visa overstays.”
The bill would require those currently living in the United States illegally to register with the government, pass a background check, and settle their debt to society by paying a fine and back taxes. Individuals with a serious criminal background or those who “pose a threat to our national security” would be ineligible and subject to deportation.
Current restrictions keeping non-immigrants from accessing “public benefits” would also apply to those who are on the path the citizenship.
Once they have passed the background check and paid their “debt to society”, those on “probationary legal status” will be placed at the back of the line for prospective immigrants. These probationary immigrants will then have to “pass another background check, pay taxes, learn English and civics, demonstrate a history of work in the United States, and current employment” in order to apply for lawful permanent residency.
Exemptions would be made for minors who did not knowingly violate U.S. immigration laws when they entered the United States and agricultural workers.

Border Security (http://www.examiner.com/topic/border-security)


The Bill would increase Border Patrol efforts by “providing them with the latest technology, infrastructure, and personnel needed.” The legislation would increase the number of Border Patrol agents and the number of unmanned aerial vehicles, or drones, monitoring the border.
The bill would “strengthen prohibitions against racial profiling and inappropriate use of force” by increasing the training of border patrol agents and increasing oversight.
The bill would create an “entry-exit system” that would track whether all persons entering the United States on a temporary visa leave the country as required by law.
The bill would create a commission of “governors, attorneys general, and community leaders living along the Southwest border to monitor the progress of securing our border and make recommendations.”

Skilled Worker Immigration


The bill would develop a “rational legal immigration system” to reduce the backlog of visas which force families to live apart and keep specialized jobs unfilled.
The bill would also award a green card to immigrants who receive a PhD or Master’s degree in science, technology, engineering, or math from an American university.

Employment Verification


The bill would implement a “fast and reliable method to confirm whether new hires are legally authorized to work in the United States.”
The bill would place stiff fines and criminal penalties on employers who knowingly hire undocumented workers.

Low Skilled Workers


The bill would allow “more lower-skilled immigrants to come here when our economy is creating jobs, and fewer when our economy is not creating jobs.”
Employers who want to hire lower-skilled immigrants would have to demonstrate that they could not successfully recruit an American and that the hiring of the immigrant will not displace American workers

KILLER_CLOWN
11-11-2012, 11:04 AM
You know its coming. As soon as the fiscal cliff is finished, illegal immigration is next.

Sen. Graham and Sen. Shumar have already resumed their illegal immigration talks from two years ago. Both were on the sunday shows talking about the plan. Both are seeing a possible huge bi-partisan deal is now possible based on their earlier work form two years ago.

Main points of the deal:


Lock down the border. Spend whatever money and political will to truly stop the flow of people over our borders.
A nationwide verification of employment. The idea is to come up with some kind of non forgeable document. A E-Verify for immigrants.
Increase legal immigration, especially for scientists, engineers and other fields that benefit America or workers are in short supply, i.e. workers who pick our produce in the fields.
Stiff and severe penalties for businesses that hire illegals after the "E-Verify type" system is in place.
The Dream act is part of the total package.
Every illegal in the country is possible allowed to stay legally in the country. The conditions are:



They must enter into that "E-Verify type" system.
They are allowed to apply for citizenship but they go to the back of the line of people that already have green cards.
They must pay a fine for entering the country illegally.
They are allowed to stay as long until their citizenship paperwork is finalized, as long as they commit no crimes and pay all taxes that everyone else pays. Failure to so that = immediate deportation.
What crime is deportable is TBD.
Size of the fine is TBD.


This doesn't really cover sending 3/4 of their money back home.

BigRedChief
11-11-2012, 11:10 AM
This doesn't really cover sending 3/4 of their money back home.Since when does America dictate to individuals what people can and can't do with their after tax income?

Ugly Duck
11-11-2012, 11:16 AM
Reagan did it. Grant them amnesty & hope that they vote for your party.

BigRedChief
11-11-2012, 11:25 AM
Reagan did it. Grant them amnesty & hope that they vote for your party.There is no way that either party is going to allow the other party to take full credit for immigration reform.

It's a demographic fright train. Everyone wants on board.

Ugly Duck
11-11-2012, 11:31 AM
There is no way that either party is going to allow the other party to take full credit for immigration reform.

It's a demographic fright train. Everyone wants on board.

"Estoy totalmente/absolutamente de acuerdo (contigo)".

blaise
11-11-2012, 12:04 PM
I don't like the Dream Act. If they want to say tomorrow that they'll let in twice as many immigrants, legally, I'd say fine. The Dream Act just seems to encourage illegal immigration.

BigRedChief
11-11-2012, 12:13 PM
I don't like the Dream Act. If they want to say tomorrow that they'll let in twice as many immigrants, legally, I'd say fine. The Dream Act just seems to encourage illegal immigration.My assumption after reading what Shumer and Graham are saying is that the Dream act being included is a grandfathered part of the deal.

It applies only to those kids already brought here by their parents. It doesn't apply to future immigrants.

Donger
11-11-2012, 12:30 PM
You know its coming. As soon as the fiscal cliff is finished, illegal immigration is next.

Sen. Graham and Sen. Shumar have already resumed their illegal immigration talks from two years ago. Both were on the sunday shows talking about the plan. Both are seeing a possible huge bi-partisan deal is now possible based on their earlier work form two years ago.

Main points of the deal:


Lock down the border. Spend whatever money and political will to truly stop the flow of people over our borders.
A nationwide verification of employment. The idea is to come up with some kind of non forgeable document. A E-Verify for immigrants.
Increase legal immigration, especially for scientists, engineers and other fields that benefit America or workers are in short supply, i.e. workers who pick our produce in the fields.
Stiff and severe penalties for businesses that hire illegals after the "E-Verify type" system is in place.
The Dream act is part of the total package.
Every illegal in the country is possible allowed to stay legally in the country. The conditions are:



They must enter into that "E-Verify type" system.
They are allowed to apply for citizenship but they go to the back of the line of people that already have green cards or have already applied for citizenship.
They must pay a fine for entering the country illegally.
They are allowed to stay as long until their citizenship paperwork is finalized, as long as they commit no crimes and pay all taxes that everyone else pays. Failure to so that = immediate deportation.
What crime is deportable is TBD.
Size of the fine is TBD.


The first point point MUST happen, or the flow will increase just like it did with Reagan. I'd also require speaking and writing proficiently in English.

J Diddy
11-11-2012, 12:33 PM
The first point point MUST happen, or the flow will increase just like it did with Reagan. I'd also require speaking and writing proficiently in English.
That is probably not going to happen.

BigRedChief
11-11-2012, 12:35 PM
The first point point MUST happen, or the flow will increase just like it did with Reagan. I'd also require speaking and writing proficiently in English.Agree on the first point. Without it, everything else falls apart.

Second point is never going to happen. You know that's not ever going to happen, correct?

petegz28
11-11-2012, 01:54 PM
Since when does America dictate to individuals what people can and can't do with their after tax income?

Wow, really? Did you just ask that? Can't buy sodas larger than 16 oz. in New York, for starters.

MUST buy health insurance for another.

:facepalm:

petegz28
11-11-2012, 01:59 PM
You know its coming. As soon as the fiscal cliff is finished, illegal immigration is next.

Sen. Graham and Sen. Shumar have already resumed their illegal immigration talks from two years ago. Both were on the sunday shows talking about the plan. Both are seeing a possible huge bi-partisan deal is now possible based on their earlier work form two years ago.

Main points of the deal:


Lock down the border. Spend whatever money and political will to truly stop the flow of people over our borders.
A nationwide verification of employment. The idea is to come up with some kind of non forgeable document. A E-Verify for immigrants.
Increase legal immigration, especially for scientists, engineers and other fields that benefit America or workers are in short supply, i.e. workers who pick our produce in the fields.
Stiff and severe penalties for businesses that hire illegals after the "E-Verify type" system is in place.
The Dream act is part of the total package.
Every illegal in the country is possible allowed to stay legally in the country. The conditions are:



They must enter into that "E-Verify type" system.
They are allowed to apply for citizenship but they go to the back of the line of people that already have green cards or have already applied for citizenship.
They must pay a fine for entering the country illegally.
They are allowed to stay as long until their citizenship paperwork is finalized, as long as they commit no crimes and pay all taxes that everyone else pays. Failure to so that = immediate deportation.
What crime is deportable is TBD.
Size of the fine is TBD.


Point #4 is a huge problem. What it basically says is anyone can come into the country illegally, then admit they did, apply for citizenship and stay as long as they want. Plus we have seen time and time again that "crimes" do not get people deported.

patteeu
11-11-2012, 02:20 PM
That is probably not going to happen.

Agree on the first point. Without it, everything else falls apart.

Second point is never going to happen. You know that's not ever going to happen, correct?

Leaving aside whether or not it could ever happen, do you guys think it would be a good thing for our country to give those who have gone to the effort to learn our language preferential position when it comes to legal immigration? If not, why not?

How about preference for skilled/educated people over the unskilled/uneducated?

J Diddy
11-11-2012, 02:31 PM
Leaving aside whether or not it could ever happen, do you guys think it would be a good thing for our country to give those who have gone to the effort to learn our language preferential position when it comes to legal immigration? If not, why not?

How about preference for skilled/educated people over the unskilled/uneducated?

I would agree that preferential treatment for those passing a basic language test and having education would be a good thing. I don't know about the skilled because you would have to compare the skills they acquired to our standards.

I think the most important thing, and I might get blasted on this, is for them not to be a drain. What I don't want to see is people crossing the borders and squatting on welfare . I don't have a problem with some initial help and I do realize that in some situations it might be more than others, but all things being equal they shouldn't come here to go from unsubsidized poverty to subsidized poverty.

BigRedChief
11-11-2012, 02:32 PM
How about preference for skilled/educated people over the unskilled/uneducated? yes, I can get in front of this, Defintely without a doubt, these people should move to the front of the line.Leaving aside whether or not it could ever happen, do you guys think it would be a good thing for our country to give those who have gone to the effort to learn our language preferential position when it comes to legal immigration? If not, why not?I would also be good with some system to incentify potential immigrants to better embrace America and its social and cultural heritage.

Something along the lines of the civil service test if you are a veteran, you get more points in the hiring process.

We Dem's need to listen to and address some of the R's legitimate concerns about immigration. This needs to be bi-partisan.

Direckshun
11-11-2012, 02:41 PM
Your OP missed out on our immigration system.

Legal immigration is cumbersome, difficult, oftentimes takes years and years and years of waiting if you come from a non-approved country like Mexico.

It's part of the reason people commit illegal immigration in the first place. When your life is very troubled, you often times can't wait the decade of whatever that it takes to get approved to immigrate.

Edit: You did mention it after all -- though you did not mention a potential solution of making legal immigration a faster, easier process.

BigRedChief
11-11-2012, 02:48 PM
Your OP missed out on our immigration system.

Legal immigration is cumbersome, difficult, oftentimes takes years and years and years of waiting if you come from a non-approved country like Mexico.

It's part of the reason people commit illegal immigration in the first place. When your life is very troubled, you often times can't wait the decade of whatever that it takes to get approved to immigrate.I was trying to keep the OP a just the facts post. Here's what these two senators are going to push for. I didn't read or hear of anything from those two on fixing the beauracy or speeding up the immigration process besides those more important to Amerca get to jump the line.

the line would still be there.:shake:

craneref
11-11-2012, 09:35 PM
Your OP missed out on our immigration system.

Legal immigration is cumbersome, difficult, oftentimes takes years and years and years of waiting if you come from a non-approved country like Mexico.

It's part of the reason people commit illegal immigration in the first place. When your life is very troubled, you often times can't wait the decade of whatever that it takes to get approved to immigrate.

Edit: You did mention it after all -- though you did not mention a potential solution of making legal immigration a faster, easier process.

I still don'tunderstand the point? You say that if you can't wait it is OK to break the law? My wife and adopted son are both naturalized citizens and stood in line for their turn. I couldn't even bring my adopted son to the US to visit for 4+ years. I had to prove that he was indeed living with me and was part of the family. He was born in Nov 1997, and I barely got paperwork in time to bring him back to the States in Mar 2003, in fact the day before we were scheduled to fly out. So I don't buy the I can't wait that long excuse. I am not opposed to simplifying the process, but until that happens, I have no sympathy for those who intentionally broke the law to get waht they wanted. The USA STILL allows plenty of imigration opportunities.

Direckshun
11-11-2012, 09:45 PM
I still don'tunderstand the point? You say that if you can't wait it is OK to break the law?

I didn't remotely say that.

craneref
11-11-2012, 09:53 PM
I didn't remotely say that.

It's part of the reason people commit illegal immigration in the first place. When your life is very troubled, you often times can't wait the decade of whatever that it takes to get approved to immigrate.

so am I reading this statement wrong?

Direckshun
11-11-2012, 09:56 PM
It's part of the reason people commit illegal immigration in the first place. When your life is very troubled, you often times can't wait the decade of whatever that it takes to get approved to immigrate.

so am I reading this statement wrong?

Well you copied and pasted it effectively.

I'm not excusing illegal immigration or cheering it on. I just explained a reason as to why it so often occurs.

Iowanian
11-12-2012, 06:24 PM
drone strikes.

Donger
11-12-2012, 06:47 PM
Agree on the first point. Without it, everything else falls apart.

Second point is never going to happen. You know that's not ever going to happen, correct?

Why not? It's required of ALL naturalized citizens.

Donger
11-12-2012, 07:07 PM
Your OP missed out on our immigration system.

Legal immigration is cumbersome, difficult, oftentimes takes years and years and years of waiting if you come from a non-approved country like Mexico.

It's part of the reason people commit illegal immigration in the first place. When your life is very troubled, you often times can't wait the decade of whatever that it takes to get approved to immigrate.

Edit: You did mention it after all -- though you did not mention a potential solution of making legal immigration a faster, easier process.

So, you want to make the legal immigration process easier and faster for Mexicans, even unskilled?

BigRedChief
11-12-2012, 07:41 PM
Why not? It's required of ALL naturalized citizens.Using incentives like the ones mentioned earlier is a better way to go to accomplish the same goals.

Donger
11-12-2012, 07:42 PM
Using incentives like the ones mentioned earlier is a better way to go to accomplish the same goals.

Huh?

BigRedChief
11-12-2012, 07:49 PM
Huh?Did you not read the whole thread?

cosmo20002
11-12-2012, 07:50 PM
Reagan did it. Grant them amnesty & hope that they vote for your party.

Impossible. Reagan was a conservative, or so I'm told.

Donger
11-12-2012, 08:10 PM
Did you not read the whole thread?

Yes. WHat incentives? Why should any "amnesty" also not include requiring English?

BucEyedPea
11-12-2012, 08:26 PM
Impossible. Reagan was a conservative, or so I'm told.

Yes he did. But it's a worse problem now. So no politician can just keep using that.

BucEyedPea
11-12-2012, 08:52 PM
U.S. Senators Chuck Schumer (Prog D-NY) and Lindsay Graham (NeoCon R-SC) announced Sunday that they have hammered out a bipartisan "comprehensive, detailed blueprint" to overhaul immigration policy, and their plan includes a pathway to citizenship for the estimated 11 million illegal immigrants now in the United States.

BigRedChief
11-12-2012, 09:13 PM
Yes. WHat incentives? Why should any "amnesty" also not include requiring English?post #15 and #16.

Donger
11-12-2012, 09:26 PM
post #15 and #16.

The incentive IS becoming a naturalized American citizen.

Jesus Christ.

BigRedChief
11-12-2012, 09:32 PM
yes, I can get in front of this, Defintely without a doubt, these people should move to the front of the line.I would also be good with some system to incentify potential immigrants to better embrace America and its social and cultural heritage.

Something along the lines of the civil service test if you are a veteran, you get more points in the hiring process.

We Dem's need to listen to and address some of the R's legitimate concerns about immigration. This needs to be bi-partisan.

The incentive IS becoming a naturalized American citizen.

Jesus Christ.WTF is your problem. It's as clear as it can be.

patteau is talking about incentives to learn our language. I say ya good idea like a civil service test.
Quote:
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset"> Originally Posted by patteeu http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?p=9106335#post9106335)
How about preference for skilled/educated people over the unskilled/uneducated?
</td> </tr> </tbody></table>
yes, I can get in front of this, Defintely without a doubt, these people should move to the front of the line. Quote:
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset"> Originally Posted by patteeu http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?p=9106335#post9106335)
Leaving aside whether or not it could ever happen, do you guys think it would be a good thing for our country to give those who have gone to the effort to learn our language preferential position when it comes to legal immigration? If not, why not?
</td> </tr> </tbody></table>
I would also be good with some system to incentify potential immigrants to better embrace America and its social and cultural heritage.

Something along the lines of the civil service test if you are a veteran, you get more points in the hiring process.

We Dem's need to listen to and address some of the R's legitimate concerns about immigration. This needs to be bi-partisan.

Donger
11-12-2012, 09:36 PM
WTF is your problem. It's as clear as it can be.

patteau is talking about incentives to learn our language. I say ya good idea like a civil service test..

Then why did you say this?

Second point is never going to happen. You know that's not ever going to happen, correct?

Why is requiring proficiency in English never going to happen for the illegals here now?

BigRedChief
11-12-2012, 09:42 PM
Then why did you say this?

Second point is never going to happen. You know that's not ever going to happen, correct?

Why is requiring proficiency in English never going to happen for the illegals here now?Why do you have to be so fucking difficult? It was right there in the post. You made me post it like you lack the understanding to grasp the conversation and need clarification.


As clear as I can make it for you:
The requirement to learn English is not going to happen. An incentive to learn English is a good idea.

Donger
11-12-2012, 09:46 PM
Why do you have to be so ****ing difficult? It was right there in the post. You made me post it like you lack the understanding to grasp the conversation and need clarification.


As clear as I can make it for you:
The requirement to learn English is not going to happen. An incentive to learn English is a good idea.

No, it isn't right there.

Why isn't a requirement for illegals to learn English not going to happen as a requirement for their becoming citizens?

WoodDraw
11-12-2012, 09:54 PM
People that say "require English" obviously have never learned a second language ever in there life.

What level of English? What test do you want to go by?


You have to separate people into two categories - those wanting to immigrate here permanently, and those wanting to work here temporarily.

BigRedChief
11-12-2012, 09:56 PM
No, it isn't right there.

Why isn't a requirement for illegals to learn English not going to happen as a requirement for their becoming citizens?I'm tired of your constant, sometimes stupid questions. I'm going to ignore them for awhile.

BucEyedPea
11-12-2012, 09:56 PM
I'm tired of your stupid questions. I'm going to ignore them for awhile.

I don't blame you.

patteeu
11-12-2012, 09:59 PM
People that say "require English" obviously have never learned a second language ever in there life.

What level of English? What test do you want to go by?


You have to separate people into two categories - those wanting to immigrate here permanently, and those wanting to work here temporarily.

Why is that such a difficult detail to work out? It wouldn't be hard at all to develop a test.

Donger
11-12-2012, 10:00 PM
I'm tired of your constant, sometimes stupid questions. I'm going to ignore them for awhile.

It's not a stupid question at all. Nothing above answered it. Proficiency in English IS a requirement for naturalized US citizens.

I'm just trying to figure out WHY you think the same will never happen with legalized illegals.

Like I said, Jesus Christ. It's not that fucking difficult.

Donger
11-12-2012, 10:01 PM
People that say "require English" obviously have never learned a second language ever in there life.

What level of English? What test do you want to go by?


You have to separate people into two categories - those wanting to immigrate here permanently, and those wanting to work here temporarily.

Are you aware that it's a PRESENT and long-standing requirement for ALL naturalized US citizens?

J Diddy
11-12-2012, 10:04 PM
Why is that such a difficult detail to work out? It wouldn't be hard at all to develope a test.

You can't even spell develop and you want someone to pass an English test?

WoodDraw
11-12-2012, 10:08 PM
Why is that such a difficult detail to work out? It wouldn't be hard at all to develope a test.

I was in Portugal recently. I know enough Portuguese to get by - meaning I can buy food and get coffee, and tell a taxi where to go. But in any conversation, I break down pretty quickly. Which is fine, because almost all there are very willing to speak English (more so than Spanish, weirdly enough). But at what point should I be allowed in? What level do I need to reach to be accepted?

Languages aren't learned on a "you know it, or you don't". Most of the exams are very theoretical as well. In one of the Spanish exams I've taken, I had to (on the spot) discuss the benefits of public vs. private high school education. Is that really something some guy coming over to work a minimum wage job needs to give a fuck about?

BucEyedPea
11-12-2012, 10:14 PM
I was in Portugal recently. I know enough Portuguese to get by - meaning I can buy food and get coffee, and tell a taxi where to go. But in any conversation, I break down pretty quickly. Which is fine, because almost all there are very willing to speak English (more so than Spanish, weirdly enough). But at what point should I be allowed in? What level do I need to reach to be accepted?

Languages aren't learned on a "you know it, or you don't". Most of the exams are very theoretical as well. In one of the Spanish exams I've taken, I had to (on the spot) discuss the benefits of public vs. private high school education. Is that really something some guy coming over to work a minimum wage job needs to give a **** about?

Heh! I know what you mean. I studied French for a total of 12 years. In parochial school I learned how to pray in it. Say hello, how are you and good day. In high school a bit more such as conjugating a lot of verbs and learning nouns. Rarely speaking it except for canned language learned rotely. Then in college it was culture, novels and philosophy. I thought I had finally become fluent and pretty much was thinking in the language...until I went to France and didn't know how to ask where the bathroom was. Daily things like that beyond good day, how are you, what's your name then lurching to the grand infinity or the small infinity ( Blaise Pascal's Philosophy).

It was tough getting around and they spoke so fast, but so many spoke English.

WoodDraw
11-12-2012, 10:14 PM
Are you aware that it's a PRESENT and long-standing requirement for ALL naturalized US citizens?

LOL - fine. If the current test is the standard, I don't give a shit about that. It's nothing.


I think the bigger issue is temporary work, not citizenship.

BucEyedPea
11-12-2012, 10:15 PM
You can't even spell develop and you want someone to pass an English test?

Looks like a typo. It happens, spelling Nazi.

WoodDraw
11-12-2012, 10:17 PM
It was tough getting around and they spoke so fast, but so many spoke English.

Which is why Europe is so easy. :) I speak Spanish, so I can read Portuguese fairly well. I've studied it a bit as well. But I have quite a bit of issues with the accent, especially the Brazilian one.

ChiefsCountry
11-12-2012, 10:17 PM
Rush had a funny joke about amensty. Let them pass amensty law for everybody then don't give the right to vote for I think 15 years. See which party had the balls to pass that.

BucEyedPea
11-12-2012, 10:19 PM
Which is why Europe is so easy. :) I speak Spanish, so I can read Portuguese fairly well. I've studied it a bit as well. But I have quite a bit of issues with the accent, especially the Brazilian one.

It really is easy. Then again, that's because English is the a very common language. Even Greece and Egypt were easy. We have it good in this department.

WoodDraw
11-12-2012, 10:21 PM
It really is easy. Then again, that's because English is the a very common language. Even Greece and Egypt were easy. We have it good in this department.

No kidding. Easy to forget how nice it is being able to walk into a hotel anywhere and know that the front desk will speak English...

patteeu
11-13-2012, 05:32 AM
You can't even spell develop and you want someone to pass an English test?

Lol

patteeu
11-13-2012, 05:33 AM
I was in Portugal recently. I know enough Portuguese to get by - meaning I can buy food and get coffee, and tell a taxi where to go. But in any conversation, I break down pretty quickly. Which is fine, because almost all there are very willing to speak English (more so than Spanish, weirdly enough). But at what point should I be allowed in? What level do I need to reach to be accepted?

Languages aren't learned on a "you know it, or you don't". Most of the exams are very theoretical as well. In one of the Spanish exams I've taken, I had to (on the spot) discuss the benefits of public vs. private high school education. Is that really something some guy coming over to work a minimum wage job needs to give a **** about?

Preferably, yes.

mr. tegu
11-13-2012, 09:38 AM
People that say "require English" obviously have never learned a second language ever in there life.
What level of English? What test do you want to go by?


You have to separate people into two categories - those wanting to immigrate here permanently, and those wanting to work here temporarily.

Too bad. If I move to another country you better believe I will learn the language the best I can. Language is a cultural barrier. If they don't learn the language they will never really be part of the American culture as a whole. People are more than welcome and encouraged to maintain their native cultures and customs but they also should be part of aspects of the American culture, especially one shared by the majority of Americans such as language.

The English language is one of the few qualities that everyone who comes here can have in common. This helps remove barriers in daily living, it prevents racism and prejudice, as well as prevent people from segregating themselves from others. How American can an area really be in which people speak nothing but Spanish, don't try to learn English, and have no desire or even need to speak English? (I know this scenario is an extreme and a generalization). The country and the individuals themselves are better off if immigrants speak English well enough to get by in daily living. Unfortunately not all immigrants seem to realize or concern themselves with those two things.

King_Chief_Fan
11-13-2012, 09:54 AM
Too effing bad. If I move to another country you better believe I will learn the language the best I can. Language is a cultural barrier. If they don't learn the language they will never really be part of the American culture as a whole. People are more than welcome and encouraged to maintain their native cultures and customs but they also should be part of aspects of the American culture, especially one shared by the majority of Americans such as language.

The English language is one of the few qualities that everyone who comes here can have in common. This helps remove barriers in daily living, it prevents racism and prejudice, as well as prevent people from segregating themselves from others. How American can an area really be in which people speak nothing but Spanish, don't try to learn English, and have no desire or even need to speak English? (I know this scenario is an extreme and a generalization). The country and the individuals themselves are better off if immigrants speak English well enough to get by in daily living. Unfortunately not all immigrants seem to realize or concern themselves with those two things.

which is why Europe, Belgium for an example require HS students to learn 3 additional languges.... Dutch, German or French and English...those are in addition to Flemish which is their language

vailpass
11-13-2012, 11:45 AM
Secure the border first.

*Deploy returning active duty troops, corps of civil engineers to erect structures, search and destroy tunnels, establish barriers, patrol and control the perimeter.

*Deploy spec ops on drug cartel intel gathering detail for recommendations to future actions. Know who and where they are and have a means in place of acting against them with prejudice should they encroach.

*Establish temp. work permit policy including harsh penalties for violation and the means to enforce them, then establish regulated ports of entry where illegals can apply for temp work permits. This includes illegals currently in the US.

*Develop a policy that allows temp workers to concurrently apply for citizenship in a manner that is equitable to all other citizenship applicants regardless of their nationality.

vailpass
11-13-2012, 11:52 AM
Too bad. If I move to another country you better believe I will learn the language the best I can. Language is a cultural barrier. If they don't learn the language they will never really be part of the American culture as a whole. People are more than welcome and encouraged to maintain their native cultures and customs but they also should be part of aspects of the American culture, especially one shared by the majority of Americans such as language.

The English language is one of the few qualities that everyone who comes here can have in common. This helps remove barriers in daily living, it prevents racism and prejudice, as well as prevent people from segregating themselves from others. How American can an area really be in which people speak nothing but Spanish, don't try to learn English, and have no desire or even need to speak English? (I know this scenario is an extreme and a generalization). The country and the individuals themselves are better off if immigrants speak English well enough to get by in daily living. Unfortunately not all immigrants seem to realize or concern themselves with those two things.

Yep. It seems so basic yet some would trip all over themselves to remove the tie that binds us.
What they think is inclusive results in separation.

Detoxing
11-13-2012, 11:58 AM
Yep. It seems so basic yet some would trip all over themselves to remove the tie that binds us.
What they think is inclusive results in separation.

I agree. It frustrates the living shit out of me.

vailpass
11-13-2012, 12:00 PM
I agree. It frustrates the living shit out of me.

How are we supposed to be able to understand and accept each other, to work together and become friends and neighbors, when we can't communicate?

Refusal to learn/speak English causes resentment, isolates groups, and impedes progress in the workplace and classroom.

What is so hard to understand about any of this?

Donger
11-13-2012, 12:05 PM
Too bad. If I move to another country you better believe I will learn the language the best I can. Language is a cultural barrier. If they don't learn the language they will never really be part of the American culture as a whole. People are more than welcome and encouraged to maintain their native cultures and customs but they also should be part of aspects of the American culture, especially one shared by the majority of Americans such as language.

The English language is one of the few qualities that everyone who comes here can have in common. This helps remove barriers in daily living, it prevents racism and prejudice, as well as prevent people from segregating themselves from others. How American can an area really be in which people speak nothing but Spanish, don't try to learn English, and have no desire or even need to speak English? (I know this scenario is an extreme and a generalization). The country and the individuals themselves are better off if immigrants speak English well enough to get by in daily living. Unfortunately not all immigrants seem to realize or concern themselves with those two things.

I'm not sure that the majority of illegals actually do want to become Americans, at least to the point where they would accept assimilation.

La literatura
11-13-2012, 12:08 PM
I'm sure most immigrants try to learn a passable amount, if not a conversational amount, of the English language. It's hard to do when you're working and taking care of people, though.

vailpass
11-13-2012, 12:09 PM
I'm sure most immigrants try to lean a passable amount, if not a conversational amount, of the English language. It's hard to do when you're working and taking care of people, though.

Thanks for your practical knowledge on the subject of illegals as you sit in a classroom in the middle of Iowa.

Come on out to Arizona for a couple weeks and I'll show you around. You will have a different perspective.

Detoxing
11-13-2012, 12:11 PM
How are we supposed to be able to understand and accept each other, to work together and become friends and neighbors, when we can't communicate?

Refusal to learn/speak English causes resentment, isolates groups, and impedes progress in the workplace and classroom.

What is so hard to understand about any of this?

I agree.

I preach it all the time when i have conversations with Mexicans about what THEY need to do to make this work.

Sometimes they are their own worst enemy in all this.

La literatura
11-13-2012, 12:11 PM
Thanks for your practical knowledge on the subject of illegals as you sit in a classroom in the middle of Iowa.

Do you think there are no immigrants (illegal or otherwise) in Iowa? Do you hang out with the immigrant population a lot in Arizona?

vailpass
11-13-2012, 12:12 PM
Do you think there are no immigrants (illegal or otherwise) in Iowa?

I know very well what the mexican situation is in Iowa. I'm from there, get back from time to time, and have friends/family there.

It is NOTHING like a border state. You can either believe me or not.

Donger
11-13-2012, 12:13 PM
I agree.

I preach it all the time when i have conversations with Mexicans about what THEY need to do to make this work.

Sometimes they are their own worst enemy in all this.

And what do they say in response?

Detoxing
11-13-2012, 12:13 PM
I'm not sure that the majority of illegals actually do want to become Americans, at least to the point where they would accept assimilation.

Well you're wrong. Again.

From what i've seen, even the elderly want to be American. I'm sure there is a segment out there full of retards who still think we need to give California back to Mexico, but from my experience, they want to be Americans.

The problem resides with these people who are 30+ years old who struggle to learn a second language.

blaise
11-13-2012, 12:14 PM
When I worked retail I noticed people's ability to speak English came and went depending on whether it benefited them.

mr. tegu
11-13-2012, 12:15 PM
I'm not sure that the majority of illegals actually do want to become Americans, at least to the point where they would accept assimilation.

That is a good point. Immigrants that want to come here and assimilate do so because it is the land of opportunity and you can try to make yourself something out of nothing. For the illegals who don't want to assimilate its the land of where there is plenty of grass to cut and leaves to be blown. There just seems to be no desire to do better for themselves for many of them, which part of that is because of the inability to speak the language.

If some of them truely and honestly enjoys that work that is terrific and more power to them for doing what they want. I know there are days when I would rather be doing that. That being said, its a shame they don't pay taxes into the system the way any American born person would if they did the same work. I guess I could be wrong, but I don't imagine companies that hire illegal immigrants have any way of imposing any kind of taxes or contributing money to the local schools that are educating the illegal children. I feel like I am all over the place. LMAO

Detoxing
11-13-2012, 12:15 PM
And what do they say in response?

Depends on the person.

When i talk to these people(obviously in my age group) they instantly go in defense mode about their parents.

The most common response i get is "I shouldn't have to abandon my culture", in which case i have to explain that you can keep your culture while still integrating into ours.

vailpass
11-13-2012, 12:17 PM
*Impose a surcharge on every dollar sent from the US to Mexico via wire or eft. Earmark that money for ESL training/certification for all citizenship applicants.

Donger
11-13-2012, 12:17 PM
Depends on the person.

When i talk to these people(obviously in my age group) they instantly go in defense mode about their parents.

The most common response i get is "I shouldn't have to abandon my culture", in which case i have to explain that you can keep your culture while still integrating into ours.

Okay. So, if that's the case, how can you claim that I am wrong about them not wanting to assimilate?

And I don't understand the parent part.

La literatura
11-13-2012, 12:18 PM
I know very well what the mexican situation is in Iowa. I'm from there, get back from time to time, and have friends/family there.

It is NOTHING like a border state. You can either believe me or not.

Okay, so yes, there are immigrants in Iowa. Good.

Detoxing
11-13-2012, 12:18 PM
For the illegals who don't want to assimilate its the land of where there is plenty of grass to cut and leaves to be blown. There just seems to be no desire to do better for themselves for many of them, which part of that is because of the inability to speak the language.



From my experience, the ones who fail to assimilate are the elderly, or those past their prime. They are set in their old ways and fail to pick up the language.

La literatura
11-13-2012, 12:19 PM
From my experience, the ones who fail to assimilate are the elderly, or those past their prime. They are set in their old ways and fail to pick up the language.

Sounds like a bunch of bums. (Unlike my great grandparents from Luxembourg who only spoke German. They were great).

vailpass
11-13-2012, 12:20 PM
Okay, so yes, there are immigrants in Iowa. Good.

You look like a fool here kid, just stop.

mr. tegu
11-13-2012, 12:20 PM
I'm sure most immigrants try to learn a passable amount, if not a conversational amount, of the English language. It's hard to do when you're working and taking care of people, though.

I assure you that this is both true and not true depending on where you live and your definition of "most."

blaise
11-13-2012, 12:22 PM
From my experience, the ones who fail to assimilate are the elderly, or those past their prime. They are set in their old ways and fail to pick up the language.

I see quite a bit of younger ones that haven't. I don't know if because they don't want to, though. When you hire a crew for a construction job in Texas you get the white guy who comes out first to sell the deal. Then you get the Mexican crew. The one guy that speaks English seems like he automatically becomes the on site foreman. If you ask any of the other guys a question (most of the time) they shrug and go, "I don't know. I don't know," and go get the guy that speaks English. It's rare that you ask one of the other guys something and they speak English. And they're not generally old.
Or they're just pretending not to know because they're scared to say anything about the job,

La literatura
11-13-2012, 12:23 PM
You look like a fool here kid, just stop.

Are the immigrants in Iowa a different flavor than the immigrants in Arizona? Share your practical wisdom with us. You're obviously very in touch with the immigrant crowd. I'm just in a classroom all day.

Donger
11-13-2012, 12:24 PM
Are the immigrants in Iowa a different flavor than the immigrants in Arizona? Share your practical wisdom with us. You're obviously very in touch with the immigrant crowd. I'm just in a classroom all day.

Yes, less chipotle.

mr. tegu
11-13-2012, 12:26 PM
Depends on the person.

When i talk to these people(obviously in my age group) they instantly go in defense mode about their parents.

The most common response i get is "I shouldn't have to abandon my culture", in which case i have to explain that you can keep your culture while still integrating into ours.

Exactly! Many feel that just by assimilating to something like language in which they can instantly have something in common with everyone else here, that this means somehow they are abandoning their culture. It is almost like some of them have this idea that even though they are illegal, other people should accomodate them so as to not offend their culture. Where did they get this sense of entitlement?

From my experience, the ones who fail to assimilate are the elderly, or those past their prime. They are set in their old ways and fail to pick up the language.

As I mentioned, I really think it depends on where you live and that given community. If they are able to find other like minded individuals and areas in which they can be free to not assimilate, they will not feel the pressure or desire to do so.

Detoxing
11-13-2012, 12:26 PM
Okay. So, if that's the case, how can you claim that I am wrong about them not wanting to assimilate?

And I don't understand the parent part.

The youth are already well integrated. You wouldn't be able to tell the difference with a lot of them, as they speak perfect english and were raised by this country. Culturally, they are American, Legaly they are not. When they tell me "they don't want to abandon their culture", it's more about them feeling offended, as if i'm asking them to stop being Mexican.

The Problem is with their parents.

So when i talk about these sensitive subjects with them, their initial reaction to every question isn't about how it will affect them, but rather how it'll affect their parents.

Donger
11-13-2012, 12:28 PM
The youth are already well integrated. You wouldn't be able to tell the difference with a lot of them, as they speak perfect english and were raised by this country. Culturally, they are American, Legaly they are not. When they tell me "they don't want to abandon their culture", it's more about them feeling offended, as if i'm asking them to stop being Mexican.

The Problem is with their parents.

So when i talk about these sensitive subjects with them, their initial reaction to every question isn't about how it will affect them, but rather how it'll affect their parents.

Huh, interesting.

patteeu
11-13-2012, 12:30 PM
That is a good point. Immigrants that want to come here and assimilate do so because it is the land of opportunity and you can try to make yourself something out of nothing. For the illegals who don't want to assimilate its the land of where there is plenty of grass to cut and leaves to be blown. There just seems to be no desire to do better for themselves for many of them, which part of that is because of the inability to speak the language.

If some of them truely and honestly enjoys that work that is terrific and more power to them for doing what they want. I know there are days when I would rather be doing that. That being said, its a shame they don't pay taxes into the system the way any American born person would if they did the same work. I guess I could be wrong, but I don't imagine companies that hire illegal immigrants have any way of imposing any kind of taxes or contributing money to the local schools that are educating the illegal children. I feel like I am all over the place. LMAO

They're really no different than native-born Americans in that respect. There are plenty of Americans who have no ambition to chase the American dream but instead settle in to dead-end jobs and just get by. There's nothing wrong with this until they start voting to raise taxes on people who make more than they do and to expand benefits that flow into their own pockets. Unfortunately, we have an epidemic of that going on right now and plenty of demagogues in politics to encourage it.

I agree completely with your point about assimilation, btw. I think potential legal immigrants should have to show a propensity to assimilate before they're accepted (e.g. learn English in your homeland and then apply to come here). Obviously, this is a separate issue from the issue of what we do with the millions of illegals who are already here.

mr. tegu
11-13-2012, 12:32 PM
The youth are already well integrated. You wouldn't be able to tell the difference with a lot of them, as they speak perfect english and were raised by this country. Culturally, they are American, Legaly they are not. When they tell me "they don't want to abandon their culture", it's more about them feeling offended, as if i'm asking them to stop being Mexican.

The Problem is with their parents.

So when i talk about these sensitive subjects with them, their initial reaction to every question isn't about how it will affect them, but rather how it'll affect their parents.

A lot of this comes from the fact that they come from a place where you don't grow up in much contact with other cultures and having to learn to accept them. Therefore, they aren't adept at doing this and cannot see how it is possible to accept other cultures while maintaining your own.

mr. tegu
11-13-2012, 12:40 PM
I agree completely with your point about assimilation, btw. I think potential legal immigrants should have to show a propensity to assimilate before they're accepted (e.g. learn English in your homeland and then apply to come here). Obviously, this is a separate issue from the issue of what we do with the millions of illegals who are already here.

Actually I think that a majority of legal immigrants now, do in fact try to learn English before they come. For one the process is extremely long so they have time. Also, if they are willing to go through the process and hoops to come here legally they are much more aware of what skills they will need to be successful here, of which learning the language is a major factor. They also feel a greater sense of pride after they get here because it was a struggle for them and they are far more appreciative of what they had to do. This is a far cry from the people who wake up one day and decide that in a week or two they are hopping a fence and coming here illegally.

patteeu
11-13-2012, 12:40 PM
Actually I think that a majority of legal immigrants now, do in fact try to learn English before they come. For one the process is extremely long so they have time. Also, if they are willing to go through the process and hoops to come here legally they are much more aware of what skills they will need to be successful here, of which learning the language is a major factor. They also feel a greater sense of pride after they get here because it was a struggle for them and they are far more appreciative of what they had to do. This is a far cry from the people who wake up one day and decide that in a week or two they are hopping a fence and coming here illegally.

That's good to hear.

Detoxing
11-13-2012, 12:51 PM
A lot of this comes from the fact that they come from a place where you don't grow up in much contact with other cultures and having to learn to accept them. Therefore, they aren't adept at doing this and cannot see how it is possible to accept other cultures while maintaining your own.

Mmmm.....Not in my opinion. I think it's a bit different than that. A lot of you know when it comes to this subject, i speak in the defense of a handful that i know. Admittedly, these aren't your typical illegals, and i've told the stories of a few of them to this board already.

One is a very pretty young woman (a bit younger than myself) who has been in this country since she was less than a year old. She is what the DREAM act is built for. Perfect student, model citizen, 100% American in every way but her documentation.

Another is a a young man around my age who is incredibly technically savvy. He was brought here from the Philippines when he was a small boy along with his sister and mother. His mother died, he was put in a group home, where i met him.

I know another young lady whom i havent talked about, and most recently i learned that a 14 y/o boy i know is also Illegal.

The 14 y/o saddens me the most, because if he doesn't get a reasonable pathway to citizenship, his life will basically come to a halt when he turns 18 and graduates HS.

With all that said, when i talk to some of them about Immigration reform, they get defensive. Even though they are well integrated, they get defensive over their family. They feel attacked. They know they aren't wanted here in the only place they know as home, so they already feel threatened and pissed about the subject. So when i start telling them that their parents need to get with the program, they get upset in defense of their parents.

Like I said, their parents are the problem, and I'm not sure that there is a solution that would ever make everyone happy.

mr. tegu
11-13-2012, 12:59 PM
Mmmm.....Not in my opinion. I think it's a bit different than that. A lot of you know when it comes to this subject, i speak in the defense of a handful that i know. Admittedly, these aren't your typical illegals, and i've told the stories of a few of them to this board already.

One is a very pretty young woman (a bit younger than myself) who has been in this country since she was less than a year old. She is what the DREAM act is built for. Perfect student, model citizen, 100% American in every way but her documentation.

Another is a a young man around my age who is incredibly technically savvy. He was brought here from the Philippines when he was a small boy along with his sister and mother. His mother died, he was put in a group home, where i met him.

I know another young lady whom i havent talked about, and most recently i learned that a 14 y/o boy i know is also Illegal.

The 14 y/o saddens me the most, because if he doesn't get a reasonable pathway to citizenship, his life will basically come to a halt when he turns 18 and graduates HS.

With all that said, when i talk to some of them about Immigration reform, they get defensive. Even though they are well integrated, they get defensive over their family. They feel attacked. They know they aren't wanted here in the only place they know as home, so they already feel threatened and pissed about the subject. So when i start telling them that their parents need to get with the program, they get upset in defense of their parents.

Like I said, their parents are the problem, and I'm not sure that there is a solution that would ever make everyone happy.

That is what I meant but looking back was not all that clear on. The parents are the ones I was speaking of who come from a place where they grow up only having to really accept and learn about one culture. Therefore, when they come here it is difficult for them to assimilate into the new culture without feeling like they are giving up on their own, because as per their past, one culture is all there was in their prior society.

Detoxing
11-13-2012, 01:12 PM
That is what I meant but looking back was not all that clear on. The parents are the ones I was speaking of who come from a place where they grow up only having to really accept and learn about one culture. Therefore, when they come here it is difficult for them to assimilate into the new culture without feeling like they are giving up on their own, because as per their past, one culture is all there was in their prior society.

Yeah i agree. That's why i can't bring myself to come to the plight of the parents.

Im stuck between a rock and a hard place when it comes to Immigration reform.

On one hand, we have these young adults who've grown up since grade school with an American Education, and are completely able to contribute to the country, but are forced to sit on the couch and be a drain on society instead. The only home that they've ever known wants to label them a bunch of uneducated, dirty illegals and wants them shipped out to a country that they have no memory of. That's an injustice and it's just not fair.

On the other hand, we have their parents and grand parents who are stubborn in their ways, or are too lazy or just just not bright enough to assimilate. They came here illegally and created this problem in the first place. They are the ones who will NOT have anything to contribute and end up further burdening our welfare system.

Somewhere inbetween is a solution and i think the OP is a damn good start, and something that people on both sides of the fence can get on board with.

What worries me is our welfare system. I think that needs to be addressed before immigration can be fixed. The teet can't take anymore suckling.

vailpass
11-13-2012, 01:21 PM
Are the immigrants in Iowa a different flavor than the immigrants in Arizona? Share your practical wisdom with us. You're obviously very in touch with the immigrant crowd. I'm just in a classroom all day.
LMAO

KC native
11-13-2012, 01:44 PM
The youth are already well integrated. You wouldn't be able to tell the difference with a lot of them, as they speak perfect english and were raised by this country. Culturally, they are American, Legaly they are not. When they tell me "they don't want to abandon their culture", it's more about them feeling offended, as if i'm asking them to stop being Mexican.

The Problem is with their parents.

So when i talk about these sensitive subjects with them, their initial reaction to every question isn't about how it will affect them, but rather how it'll affect their parents.

You have to consider many of the parents education level. Many are illiterate. Many speak terrible Spanish (grammar wise).

Learning English for some of them is impossible.

BucEyedPea
11-13-2012, 02:11 PM
Just end birthright citizen ship. Simple. Problem solved. Less will come illegally. Less to gain.

Garcia Bronco
11-13-2012, 02:38 PM
I don't think there is an immigration problem from a legal perspective other than the Federal Government not doing it's job of defending the borders.

WoodDraw
11-13-2012, 02:39 PM
which is why Europe, Belgium for an example require HS students to learn 3 additional languges.... Dutch, German or French and English...those are in addition to Flemish which is their language

I'm not sure Belgium is a good example, given they can barely form governments anymore because of the French/Flemish divide. ;)


I agree with everyone that English should be encouraged for citizenship. I think it's a bit unrealistic. As others have said, assimilation tends to come from the children.

The nature of immigration is that you're not going to get a massive wave of immigration from the well educated, developed areas of the world where English is taught from a little age.

It's important to set standards but keep them realistic.

patteeu
11-13-2012, 03:16 PM
The nature of immigration is that you're not going to get a massive wave of immigration from the well educated, developed areas of the world where English is taught from a little age.

Maybe not "massive", but we could sure get a larger percentage of our legal immigration from these areas if we refocused our immigration criteria.

WoodDraw
11-13-2012, 04:19 PM
Maybe not "massive", but we could sure get a larger percentage of our legal immigration from these areas if we refocused our immigration criteria.

I honestly don't know. I'm all for fixing immigration to keep/invite more educated people here. I suspect immigration is overwhelmingly Asian and Latin America based. I don't see that changing.

But again, I think there are a few different areas here that need to be separated. Short term work visas vs. long term immigrants. I guess you can add in a third too, the illegal immigrants already here.

vailpass
11-13-2012, 04:27 PM
I honestly don't know. I'm all for fixing immigration to keep/invite more educated people here. I suspect immigration is overwhelmingly Asian and Latin America based. I don't see that changing.

But again, I think there are a few different areas here that need to be separated. Short term work visas vs. long term immigrants. I guess you can add in a third too, the illegal immigrants already here.

If you are illegal you are not an immigrant. You are an alien. Let's call things what they are; not what illegal sympathizers want us to think they are.

dirk digler
11-13-2012, 04:27 PM
Interesting ideas from many people in this thread. I definitely agree that securing the border should be a priority but I have given up hope that a military presence will be used.

We definitely need to streamline our legal immigration processes and if comprehensive immigration reform passes, the illegals need to pay a fine and go to the end of the line (doesn't apply to illegals with criminal records they will just need to be deported.)

We also should have a biometric National ID card but I know that won't happen either.

As far as learning to speak English that is a necessary step to becoming a citizen and if comprehensive immigration reform passes it is my understanding that illegals will not be granted immediate citizenship just issued green cards or whatever. You don't need to learn English to get a green card IIRC.

La literatura
11-13-2012, 04:44 PM
If you are illegal you are not an immigrant. You are an alien. Let's call things what they are; not what illegal sympathizers want us to think they are.

LMAO

Immigrants can be illegal, and not all aliens are illegal.

WoodDraw
11-13-2012, 05:21 PM
LMAO

Immigrants can be illegal, and not all aliens are illegal.

Yeah, his comment made no sense. But whatever - people can call it whatever the fuck they want. Not sure it makes a difference. But what do I know - I'm an alien sympathizer. ;)

Donger
11-13-2012, 06:05 PM
Learning English for some of them is impossible.

Impossible? How'd they learn to speak Spanish?

J Diddy
11-13-2012, 06:16 PM
Impossible? How'd they learn to speak Spanish?

By the most effective and virtually only way to become fluid in a second language. Would you care to know what that is?

Chocolate Hog
11-13-2012, 06:23 PM
Rand Paul endorsed a path way to citizenship and thus ending his chance of becoming the Republican nominee.

patteeu
11-13-2012, 06:31 PM
Rand Paul endorsed a path way to citizenship and thus ending his chance of becoming the Republican nominee.

ROFL

Donger
11-13-2012, 06:37 PM
By the most effective and virtually only way to become fluid in a second language. Would you care to know what that is?

That isn't what I asked, but what is it? Being fluid (heh) in a first language?

J Diddy
11-13-2012, 06:39 PM
That isn't what I asked, but what is it? Being fluid (heh) in a first language?

Complete immersion. Lol, meant to say fluent.

Donger
11-13-2012, 06:42 PM
Complete immersion. Lol, meant to say fluent.

Yeah, I was just having fun with you. For 100%, dreaming in that language, fluency, I'd agree with you. KCnative didn't say that, however. He said, "Learning English for some of them is impossible."

Horsehit.

mr. tegu
11-13-2012, 09:14 PM
Yeah, I was just having fun with you. For 100%, dreaming in that language, fluency, I'd agree with you. KCnative didn't say that, however. He said, "Learning English for some of them is impossible."

Horsehit.

It's true. It only took me about three months to learn British English.

KC native
11-14-2012, 01:28 AM
Yeah, I was just having fun with you. For 100%, dreaming in that language, fluency, I'd agree with you. KCnative didn't say that, however. He said, "Learning English for some of them is impossible."

Horsehit.

You can't fix stupid.

patteeu
11-14-2012, 05:43 AM
You can't fix stupid.

What percentage of these immigrants are you saying are too irredeemably stupid to learn English? 5%? 50%?

Direckshun
11-14-2012, 09:03 AM
It is not even close.

A majority of Americans -- almost a filibuster-proof majority -- support a path to citizenship.

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/11/majority-supports-path-to-citizenship-greater-division-on-other-social-issues/

Majority Supports Path to Citizenship; Greater Division on Other Social Issues

A PATH – Fifty-seven percent of Americans in this survey, produced for ABC by Langer Research Associates, support a path to citizenship for illegal immigrants, with 39 percent opposed. That’s virtually identical to results of a similar question last asked in mid-2010, with support up from its earlier levels, as low as 49 percent in late 2007.

Debate on the issue was heightened by restrictive immigration policies enacted in Arizona in 2010 and Alabama in 2011, and, in June, when Obama moved in another direction, granting immunity from deportation to many undocumented immigrants who arrived in the country as children.

Hispanics accounted for 10 percent of voters in Tuesday’s presidential election, reaching double-digits for the first time, and Obama won them by 71-27 percent, improving on his 2008 margin in this group. In the exit poll, voters overall, by more than 2-1, said illegal immigrants working here should be offered a chance to apply for legal status rather than being deported.

In this survey, support for a path to citizenship peaks at 82 percent among Hispanics, 71 percent among Democrats and liberals alike and 69 percent among young adults, all key Obama groups. Support’s at 68 percent among nonwhites overall, compared with 51 percent among non-Hispanic whites. Obama lost white voters by 20 points last week, but won nonwhites — who accounted for a record 28 percent of the electorate – by 61 points. It was a record racial gap.

GAY MARRIAGE – Fifty-one percent of Americans support gay marriage, slightly more than half for the fifth time straight in ABC/Post polls since March 2011, and up sharply from its levels in similar questions earlier this decade, as low as 32 percent (of registered voters) in mid-2004.

More in this survey are “opposed” to gay marriage, 47 percent, than said in recent polls that it should be “illegal” (39 percent last May), likely because making something illegal is more punitive than opposing it personally.

While 30 states have constitutionally banned gay marriage, voters approved pro-gay marriage ballot initiatives in Maryland, Maine and Washington last week, and those in Minnesota rejected a constitutional ban on it. Obama announced his personal support for gay marriage in May, saying individual states should decide on its legality.

Last week’s exit poll found voters similarly divided, 49-46 percent, on gay marriage. Supporters favored Obama over Mitt Romney by 73-25 percent. And Obama won gay and lesbian voters, 5 percent of the electorate, by 76-22 percent, vs. 70-27 percent in 2008.

Support for gay marriage in this poll tops out at more than three in four liberals and more than six in 10 young adults and Democrats. It’s opposed by a broad 81 percent of those who describe themselves as “very conservative,” and by two-thirds of senior citizens.

MARIJUANA – Relaxing restrictions on marijuana met with mixed results on Election Day, approved by voters in Colorado, Washington and Massachusetts, rejected in Arkansas and Oregon.

Americans split by 48-50 percent in this survey on “legalizing the possession of small amounts of marijuana for personal use.” Nonetheless that marks a new high in support in polls back to 1985, and the first time opposition has slipped to less than a majority. Support for legalizing marijuana has grown sharply from just 22 percent in 1997.

Despite increased acceptance of the idea, intensity of sentiment is tilted against relaxing marijuana restrictions: Thirty-seven percent are strongly opposed to legalization, vs. 26 percent who strongly support it.

GROUPS – There are sharp differences among generational groups, with support for each item higher among young adults than seniors. There’s also a wide 18-point difference between men and women on gay marriage, as well as racial and ethnic differences on immigration and, on marijuana, a regional gap, with support far lower in the South than elsewhere.

The division between the sexes on gay marriage is especially striking: Women are in favor by 59-38 percent, men opposed by 55-41 percent.

There also are broad divisions across partisan and ideological groups, with support for a path to citizenship, gay marriage and legalizing marijuana alike substantially higher among Democrats and liberals than among Republicans and conservatives. Independents are closer to Democrats in each case.

There, however, are some differences between Americans who call themselves “somewhat” conservative compared with those who are “very conservative”; most notably, somewhat conservatives are 23 points less apt than very conservatives to oppose gay marriage, 58 percent vs. 81 percent.

Moreover, a narrow majority of somewhat conservatives, 52 percent, support a path to citizenship for illegal immigrants, while 55 percent of very conservatives are opposed. That – plus the 60 percent opposition among Republicans – underscores the party’s challenges as it seeks to address its comparatively weak support among Hispanics.

METHODOLOGY – This ABC News/Washington Post poll was conducted by landline and cell phone Nov. 7-11, 2012, among a random national sample of 1,023 adults. Results have a margin of sampling error of 3.5 points. The survey was produced for ABC News by Langer Research Associates of New York, N.Y., with sampling, data collection and tabulation by SSRS/Social Science Research Solutions of Media, Pa.

BigRedChief
11-14-2012, 07:26 PM
Rand Paul endorsed a path way to citizenship and thus ending his chance of becoming the Republican nominee.Thats what true leaders do. The majority of Americans approve with giving them a path to citizenship. A path doesn't mean immediately and they should go to the back of the line but, America is ready for this to happen. I'm positive by this time next year immigration reform will be a done deal.

Republicans need to get on board with immigration reform, gay marriage and forget about social issues if they want to not get run over by that demographic freight train.

BigRedChief
11-24-2012, 11:20 PM
R's trying to win over Latinos now.

<table id="post9132728" class="tborder" align="center" border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody> <tr valign="top"><td class="alt1" id="td_post_9132728" style="border-right: 1px solid #cccccc">The Daily Caller report on which this is based.

http://dailycaller.com/2012/11/15/de...am-act-emerge/ (http://dailycaller.com/2012/11/15/details-about-the-gops-alternate-to-the-dream-act-emerge/)

Details about the GOP’s alternative to the DREAM Act emerge
Matt Lewis
3:41 PM 11/15/2012

The Daily Caller has obtained details of an ACHIEVE Act proposal being floated by some Senate Republicans.

It appears similar to the conservative alternative to the Dream Act that Sen. Marco Rubio worked on last summer (before President Obama issued his executive order, effectively tabling the issue until after the election).

Essentially, the proposal involves several tiers: W-1 visa status would allow an immigrant to attend college or serve in the military (they have six years to get a degree). After doing so, they would be eligible to apply for a four-year nonimmigrant work visa (also can be used for graduate degrees.)

Next, applicants would be eligible to apply for a permanent visa (no welfare benefits.) Finally, after a set number of years, citizenship “could follow…”

Below are a few of the details being floated to be eligible for the W-1 visa:

- “Applicant must have lived in the U.S. for five year’s prior to the Act’s enactment”;

- Must have entered the country before age 14

- Must have good moral character

- “Applicant must not have committed a felony, must not have committed more than one misdemeanor with a jail term of more than 30 days, must not have committed a crime of moral turpitude, and must not have a final order of removal pending”‘

- Must have knowledge of the English language, U.S. history, “and of principles of U.S. government”

- Applicant must be 28 or younger at time of application (or 32 if they have a bachelor’s degree from a U.S. college);

- Must pay a $525 fee

- Must submit to a medical exam and a background check, submit biometric and biographic data, and register with the Selective Service.

My take: Children who grew up in the U.S. but are undocumented, become — not just a legal issue — but also (as Rubio has said) a humanitarian one.

Many conservatives, of course, opposed the DREAM Act because it creates a special pathway to citizenship, allowing illegal immigrants to get in line ahead of other immigrants who are following the rules, and potentially creating a problem of chain migration.

The ACHIEVE Act seems to resolve this problem by granting undocumented children nonimmigrant visas so that they can go to school and work in the U.S., and, after a decade, or so, puts them on the regular pathway towards permanent residence (and potentially, citizenship.)
</td></tr></tbody></table>

blaise
11-25-2012, 08:08 AM
Yeah, there's a thread about that.

Buehler445
11-25-2012, 11:01 AM
Man, this is a tough issue. It covers a HUGE number of people in a HUGE number of different circumstances. Invariably some people (probably mostly kids) are going to suffer for stuff that is absolutely not their fault. Ultimately it would be nice if we could apply some common sense to individual cases, but I don't see any real way to do that. But ultimately the problem is terribly complex and difficult.

I can tell you that from the people around my part of the world, that getting citizenship from Mexico is difficult. There are a lot of people here that definitely contribute to society and deserve to be here. There are also a lot of fucking shitbags that need to GTFO, but that is not exclusive to immigrants.

On the assimilation issue, there are people around here that suggest that assimilation won't be an issue in a generation, because as stated above, the children will do it. Again, that's a pretty wide generalization applied to a large diverse group. But assimilation doesn't always occur through time. My great great grandparents came over from Germany in the nineteen teens. Grandpa always remembered that they knew German fluently but absolutely refused to speak it because of the war. Sometimes a reason to disassociate is necessary to assimilate.

patteeu
11-25-2012, 11:27 AM
Man, this is a tough issue. It covers a HUGE number of people in a HUGE number of different circumstances. Invariably some people (probably mostly kids) are going to suffer for stuff that is absolutely not their fault. Ultimately it would be nice if we could apply some common sense to individual cases, but I don't see any real way to do that. But ultimately the problem is terribly complex and difficult.

I can tell you that from the people around my part of the world, that getting citizenship from Mexico is difficult. There are a lot of people here that definitely contribute to society and deserve to be here. There are also a lot of ****ing shitbags that need to GTFO, but that is not exclusive to immigrants.

On the assimilation issue, there are people around here that suggest that assimilation won't be an issue in a generation, because as stated above, the children will do it. Again, that's a pretty wide generalization applied to a large diverse group. But assimilation doesn't always occur through time. My great great grandparents came over from Germany in the nineteen teens. Grandpa always remembered that they knew German fluently but absolutely refused to speak it because of the war. Sometimes a reason to disassociate is necessary to assimilate.

Two points:

1. There are a ton of people in lots of countries around the world who would like to emigrate here. It's hard for most of them to get here legally so many never get in. The only difference between Mexicans and these other potential immigrants is that Mexicans have an easier time coming here illegally. So, the fact that legal immigration is tough and can take quite a while isn't an special excuse for Mexicans.

2. It's a lot more likely that the 2nd generation will assimilate to a greater extent if there isn't such a large, concentrated, monolithic immigrant community that successfully convinces local authorities and businesses to cater to them in terms of language and motherland culture.

Buehler445
11-25-2012, 12:01 PM
I'm not sure that the majority of illegals actually do want to become Americans, at least to the point where they would accept assimilation.

Two points:

1. There are a ton of people in lots of countries around the world who would like to emigrate here. It's hard for most of them to get here legally so many never get in. The only difference between Mexicans and these other potential immigrants is that Mexicans have an easier time coming here illegally. So, the fact that legal immigration is tough and can take quite a while isn't an special excuse for Mexicans.

2. It's a lot more likely that the 2nd generation will assimilate to a greater extent if there isn't such a large, concentrated, monolithic immigrant community that successfully convinces local authorities and businesses to cater to them in terms of language and motherland culture.

Mexicans are just what I have exposure to. The fact is that the process to become a legal immigrant and needs addressed.

As for assimilation, I have a hard time believing the people that say assimilation will happen within a generation. When I stated that, I didn't intend for it to be interpreted that I believed that. I agree with everything about point #2, but by the same token, this isn't the first time it has happen. See little China, the Irish sector, pretty much NYC throughout history.

Garcia Bronco
11-26-2012, 03:22 PM
There isn't a legal immigration problem in this country. There is an illegal one. The Citizenship path in this country is of sufficient wait, monetary commitment, and scrutiny. It takes five years of living here and a six month to 1.5 years application process. It's by far one of the easier places to become a citizen compared to a number of 1st world countries. Heck in Greece you have to live there 10 of 12 consecutive years. In France one of your parents have to be French and then you have to pass an interview...IN FRENCH. Britian...Russia...very much the same as ours. You have to live here for 5 years.

Now you may say...They can't get the Visa to live here the 5 years legally. That may be true and is on a case-by-case bases. People we allow to become a Citizen must be able to offer something to this country. That is a fair and just request.

BigRedChief
01-20-2013, 09:22 AM
Part of the article from the Wall street Journal. Looks like the Republicans and Obama are going to tackle immigration first.





Republicans feel the way Rubio does, that the GOP needs to tackle immigration reform to be able to speak to Hispanic voters about other issues. And Rubio is taking a lead on the effort, proposing a blueprint for reform in his interview with The Wall Street Journal.



He struck a middle path in the interview, suggesting solutions that will appease some, but not all, on both sides of the aisle.



His most controversial position comes on a pathway to citizenship for undocumented immigrants. Rubio believes that there should be a staged process to pursue citizenship; that undocumented immigrants should come forward and go through a process to receive legal status, but should also be able to ultimately achieve citizenship.



"They would have to come forward. They would have to undergo a background check…They would be fingerprinted…They would have to pay a fine, pay back taxes, maybe even do community service. They would have to prove they've been here for an extended period of time. They understand some English and are assimilated. Then most of them would get legal status and be allowed to stay in this country," he said.
"They'd get behind everybody who came before them" in line for citizenship, Rubio adds, but he does believe they should be able to achieve citizenship someday. He also suggested the process should be expedited for young undocumented immigrants brought to the U.S. by their parents.
Rubio suggested that the U.S. needs to "move toward merit and skill-based immigration," and raise the cap on skilled and entrepreneurial immigrants.
He also stressed the need to revamp the guest-worker system to make sure that the number and type of guest worker visas is sufficient to fulfill the demand in the nation's farms. But he added that some sort of technological solution, along the lines of the E-Verify system that checks immigration documents, to ensure that those farm workers are following the law.
It seems that Rubio is already going through the planning stages of the reform push; he also suggested the means of getting legislation passed through Congress: Four or five comprehensive bills, rather than one large omnibus, the latter of which has been used to pass health care reform and rankled some Republicans.


Republicans feel the way Rubio does, that the GOP needs to tackle immigration reform to be able to speak to Hispanic voters about other issues. And Rubio is taking a lead on the effort, proposing a blueprint for reform in his interview with The Wall Street Journal.



He struck a middle path in the interview, suggesting solutions that will appease some, but not all, on both sides of the aisle.


His most controversial position comes on a pathway to citizenship for undocumented immigrants. Rubio believes that there should be a staged process to pursue citizenship; that undocumented immigrants should come forward and go through a process to receive legal status, but should also be able to ultimately achieve citizenship.



"They would have to come forward. They would have to undergo a background check…They would be fingerprinted…They would have to pay a fine, pay back taxes, maybe even do community service. They would have to prove they've been here for an extended period of time. They understand some English and are assimilated. Then most of them would get legal status and be allowed to stay in this country," he said.
"They'd get behind everybody who came before them" in line for citizenship, Rubio adds, but he does believe they should be able to achieve citizenship someday. He also suggested the process should be expedited for young undocumented immigrants brought to the U.S. by their parents.


Rubio suggested that the U.S. needs to "move toward merit and skill-based immigration," and raise the cap on skilled and entrepreneurial immigrants.


He also stressed the need to revamp the guest-worker system to make sure that the number and type of guest worker visas is sufficient to fulfill the demand in the nation's farms. But he added that some sort of technological solution, along the lines of the E-Verify system that checks immigration documents, to ensure that those farm workers are following the law.


It seems that Rubio is already going through the planning stages of the reform push; he also suggested the means of getting legislation passed through Congress: Four or five comprehensive bills, rather than one large omnibus, the latter of which has been used to pass health care reform and rankled some Republicans.

BigRedChief
01-27-2013, 05:05 PM
From the sunday talk shows it looks like it's going to happen. The R's are on board with pretty much everything. The only disagreement is how the path to citizenship is paved.

Obama supposedly to lay out specifics in the State of the Union.

BigRedChief
01-27-2013, 09:32 PM
Looks like Tuesday is the day when Obama announces his immigration plan.

http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-pn-obama-new-immigration-reform-20130125,0,5303860.story

BigRedChief
01-28-2013, 05:12 PM
Looks like Tuesday is the day when Obama announces his immigration plan.

http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-pn-obama-new-immigration-reform-20130125,0,5303860.storyCNN is reporting that the Latino cacus went to Obama and asked him to not give out the details of his immigration plan in tomorrows speech. They want to see if this bi-partisan Senate deal can make it through both houses.

BigRedChief
01-28-2013, 05:14 PM
Added to the opening post

Today a group of powerful U.S. Senators announced they have agreed to a framework on comprehensive immigration (http://www.examiner.com/topic/immigration) reform. The bipartisan group includes Senators Chuck Schumer (D-NY), Dick Durbin (D-IL), Bob Menendez (D-NJ), Michael Bennett (D-CO), Lindsey Graham (R-SC), Marco Rubio (R-FL), John McCain (R-AZ), and Jeff Flake (R-AZ). The fact that both parties have agreed to the deal gives it much better prospects for passage. If the package were to pass through the Senate with significant support from both parties it would put tremendous pressure on House Republicans to pass the bill as well. Here is a summary of what the bipartisan group has agreed to according to the Huffington Post (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/28/immigration-reform-framework_n_2566494.html).
Path to Citizenship


The bill would include a “tough, fair, and practical roadmap to address the status of unauthorized immigrants in the United States.” At the same time, the framework states that this path to citizenship would be “contingent upon our success in securing our borders and addressing visa overstays.”
The bill would require those currently living in the United States illegally to register with the government, pass a background check, and settle their debt to society by paying a fine and back taxes. Individuals with a serious criminal background or those who “pose a threat to our national security” would be ineligible and subject to deportation.
Current restrictions keeping non-immigrants from accessing “public benefits” would also apply to those who are on the path the citizenship.
Once they have passed the background check and paid their “debt to society”, those on “probationary legal status” will be placed at the back of the line for prospective immigrants. These probationary immigrants will then have to “pass another background check, pay taxes, learn English and civics, demonstrate a history of work in the United States, and current employment” in order to apply for lawful permanent residency.
Exemptions would be made for minors who did not knowingly violate U.S. immigration laws when they entered the United States and agricultural workers.

Border Security (http://www.examiner.com/topic/border-security)


The Bill would increase Border Patrol efforts by “providing them with the latest technology, infrastructure, and personnel needed.” The legislation would increase the number of Border Patrol agents and the number of unmanned aerial vehicles, or drones, monitoring the border.
The bill would “strengthen prohibitions against racial profiling and inappropriate use of force” by increasing the training of border patrol agents and increasing oversight.
The bill would create an “entry-exit system” that would track whether all persons entering the United States on a temporary visa leave the country as required by law.
The bill would create a commission of “governors, attorneys general, and community leaders living along the Southwest border to monitor the progress of securing our border and make recommendations.”

Skilled Worker Immigration


The bill would develop a “rational legal immigration system” to reduce the backlog of visas which force families to live apart and keep specialized jobs unfilled.
The bill would also award a green card to immigrants who receive a PhD or Master’s degree in science, technology, engineering, or math from an American university.

Employment Verification


The bill would implement a “fast and reliable method to confirm whether new hires are legally authorized to work in the United States.”
The bill would place stiff fines and criminal penalties on employers who knowingly hire undocumented workers.

Low Skilled Workers


The bill would allow “more lower-skilled immigrants to come here when our economy is creating jobs, and fewer when our economy is not creating jobs.”
Employers who want to hire lower-skilled immigrants would have to demonstrate that they could not successfully recruit an American and that the hiring of the immigrant will not displace American workers