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vailpass
11-12-2012, 01:51 PM
When do we get to be done with having to hear this crap? It's hot bitches in undergarments FFS

By Richard Ruelas The Republic | azcentral.com Sat Nov 10, 2012 10:18 AM

The Victoria’s Secret might have meant to tease and titillate. It ended up sparking outrage among Native Americans for having model Karlie Kloss walk out wearing a headdress that flowed to the ground.

Photos of the Wednesday night fashion show were posted online and comments, mainly from the Native American community, followed.

In an article posted on lastrealindians.com , Ruth Hopkins wrote that the costume added to the hyper-sexualization of Native women. LMAO yea right She also said the war bonnet is considered, among her Sioux tribe, an honor worn only by someone who displayed valor in battle.

“We’re a people, not a trend,” she wrote. “We don’t wear costumes. We dress in regalia, and every single piece means something special.”

The Victoria’s Secret Facebook page has been peppered with outraged comments. Linda Kewanimptewa of Prescott posted that she was boycotting the store. oh please, don't stop bringing in your beads to trade. Victoria's Secret will go out of business without people like you. “I loved your stores so much,” she wrote, “but thanks for disrespecting my culture!”

A petition on change.org has asked the lingerie company to apologize. The Victoria’s Secret fashion show is scheduled to air on CBS on Dec. 4.

In September, the handbag and clothing company Paul Frank held a pow-wow-themed fashion show that featured plastic tomahawks. It apologized after complaints from the Native American community.

Earlier this month, No Doubt premiered a video for its new song, “Looking Hot.” It had singer Gwen Stefani wearing a headband and beaded dress and battling band members dressed as black hat-wearing cowboys. The band pulled the video down on Monday after receiving complaints from F.A.I.R. Media, which promotes accurate representations of indigenous people. Idiots. As if Gwen didn't make that look better than it ever has and do your image a favor

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/20121110victoria-secret-native-americans.html

lcarus
11-12-2012, 01:54 PM
Good god, people are just looking for things to offend them now days. That lady can stick it up her ass and STFU.

Rain Man
11-12-2012, 01:55 PM
I agree that this is offensive and she should remove the outfit immediately. On stage. Live.

http://i.azcentral.com/commphotos/view/637254.jpg

vailpass
11-12-2012, 01:56 PM
I agree that this is offensive and she should remove the outfit immediately. On stage. Live.

http://i.azcentral.com/commphotos/view/637254.jpg

Ugh. Big chief Rainman see'um far.

Rain Man
11-12-2012, 01:57 PM
But before she removes the offensive outfit (or after - I'm fine with that), she should do battle with the cowgirl. Perhaps in an Old West-style oil wrestling pit.

http://i.azcentral.com/commphotos/view/637231.jpg

Rain Man
11-12-2012, 01:59 PM
Does that Predator guy come after me if my pupils dilate when I see this one?

http://i.azcentral.com/commphotos/view/637237.jpg

MTG#10
11-12-2012, 01:59 PM
http://www.tshirthell.com/shirts/products/a355/a355.gif?v101512

loochy
11-12-2012, 01:59 PM
Oh yeah? Well their lack of immune system and lack of alcohol dehydratase offends ME.

HemiEd
11-12-2012, 02:00 PM
Good god, people are just looking for things to offend them now days. That lady can stick it up her ass and STFU.

Don't worry, Air Force One is already in the air to deliver a personal apology.

Rain Man
11-12-2012, 02:00 PM
And who doesn't like a circus? Or an homage to the Revolutionary War? I'm not exactly sure what this is, but it makes me proud to be an American.

http://i.azcentral.com/commphotos/view/637203.jpg

MTG#10
11-12-2012, 02:01 PM
http://i.azcentral.com/commphotos/view/637254.jpg

Too fat. /Omaha

vailpass
11-12-2012, 02:02 PM
Oh yeah? Well their lack of immune system and lack of alcohol dehydratase offends ME.

LMAO

Don't worry, Air Force One is already in the air to deliver a personal apology.

LMAO Would to God you were joking.

Rain Man
11-12-2012, 02:03 PM
The National Association of Cotton Candy Dealers objects to the hypersexualization of cotton candy puffs.

http://i.azcentral.com/commphotos/view/637234.jpg

Stewie
11-12-2012, 02:03 PM
What's the ratio of women complaining vs. men?

vailpass
11-12-2012, 02:03 PM
And who doesn't like a circus? Or an homage to the Revolutionary War? I'm not exactly sure what this is, but it makes me proud to be an American.

http://i.azcentral.com/commphotos/view/637203.jpg

Yes please.

Rain Man
11-12-2012, 02:04 PM
Women look really good when they're dressed up in formal wear.

http://i.azcentral.com/commphotos/view/637222.jpg

Rain Man
11-12-2012, 02:05 PM
I can't come up with a particular reason to like the costume, other than the fact that there's not much of it. I think this is a really good fashion trend if it catches on.

http://i.azcentral.com/commphotos/view/637204.jpg

Rain Man
11-12-2012, 02:07 PM
The Irish object to the hypersexualization of Irish women.

http://i.azcentral.com/commphotos/view/637209.jpg

Rain Man
11-12-2012, 02:07 PM
Butterflies object to the hypersexualization of ... well, you get the drift.

http://i.azcentral.com/commphotos/view/637239.jpg

vailpass
11-12-2012, 02:10 PM
The Irish object to the hypersexualization of Irish women.

http://i.azcentral.com/commphotos/view/637209.jpg

I object to those granny panties. She needs some of those string things that all but show her blarney stone.

Chiefs Pantalones
11-12-2012, 02:15 PM
I can vouch for vailpass as I live up in Flagstaff where white people are the minority and indians rule. It's like Dances With Wolves up on this bitch. And the indians hate anyone not indian. They treat us like shit. Not to mention, I get so much shit wearing my Chiefs stuff. They are like, you shouldn't be wearing that, you're racist, you don't deserve to be wearing that, insert any other racist comments from them. They are evil. And there are drunk ones roaming the streets 24/7. A colleague of mine told us that her and other co-workers were eating at Denny's at about 7am and there was a group of drunk indians that came in hitting on waitresses AT 7 IN THE FREAKING MORNING THEY WERE DRUNK! It's insane.

MTG#10
11-12-2012, 02:20 PM
I can vouch for vailpass as I live up in Flagstaff where white people are the minority and indians rule. It's like Dances With Wolves up on this bitch. And the indians hate anyone not indian. They treat us like shit. Not to mention, I get so much shit wearing my Chiefs stuff. They are like, you shouldn't be wearing that, you're racist, you don't deserve to be wearing that, insert any other racist comments from them. They are evil. And there are drunk ones roaming the streets 24/7. A colleague of mine told us that her and other co-workers were eating at Denny's at about 7am and there was a group of drunk indians that came in hitting on waitresses AT 7 IN THE FREAKING MORNING THEY WERE DRUNK! It's insane.

Fuck Indians. (I can say that because Im a quarter Blackfoot)

T-post Tom
11-12-2012, 02:25 PM
Don't worry, Air Force One is already in the air to deliver a personal apology.

:spock:

vailpass
11-12-2012, 02:26 PM
I can vouch for vailpass as I live up in Flagstaff where white people are the minority and indians rule. It's like Dances With Wolves up on this bitch. And the indians hate anyone not indian. They treat us like shit. Not to mention, I get so much shit wearing my Chiefs stuff. They are like, you shouldn't be wearing that, you're racist, you don't deserve to be wearing that, insert any other racist comments from them. They are evil. And there are drunk ones roaming the streets 24/7. A colleague of mine told us that her and other co-workers were eating at Denny's at about 7am and there was a group of drunk indians that came in hitting on waitresses AT 7 IN THE FREAKING MORNING THEY WERE DRUNK! It's insane.

All truth here. They stagger up to you stinking, wanting a Jumbo Jack and a Budweiser.

T-post Tom
11-12-2012, 02:26 PM
The Irish object to the hypersexualization of Irish women.

http://i.azcentral.com/commphotos/view/637209.jpg

I'm a bit Irish and I'll drink to that.

vailpass
11-12-2012, 02:28 PM
**** Indians. (I can say that because Im a quarter Blackfoot)

My wife is 1/16 Wyandotte. Great. We need to show respect for their lands and allow them to have their customs and traditions.
But they don't get to tell us what we can and can't do with images that have become part of the cultural prop drawer.

munkey
11-12-2012, 02:31 PM
All truth here. They stagger up to you stinking, wanting a Jumbo Jack and a Budweiser.

Try hitting Gallup NM on a Friday night outside of a liquor store...SAD...

vailpass
11-12-2012, 02:32 PM
Try hitting Gallup NM on a Friday night outside of a liquor store...SAD...

I'll bet. I've driven through NM but never stopped anywhere but Santa Fe.

munkey
11-12-2012, 02:39 PM
I'll bet. I've driven through NM but never stopped anywhere but Santa Fe.


Do yourself a favor and don't...New Mexico is a state of love or hate. I for one don't miss it whatsoever. Now living in Bend Oregon can't even imagine moving back for any reason what so ever...other than the Mexican food...Sucks BALLS here... :(

mikey23545
11-12-2012, 02:50 PM
Perhaps Native Americans and Muslims should sign a non-aggression pact...

kepp
11-12-2012, 02:51 PM
My wife is 1/16 Wyandotte. Great. We need to show respect for their lands and allow them to have their customs and traditions.
But they don't get to tell us what we can and can't do with images that have become part of the cultural prop drawer.

She's from KCK?

vailpass
11-12-2012, 02:56 PM
She's from KCK?

No, she's never been there.

Chocolate Hog
11-12-2012, 02:56 PM
I agree that this is offensive and she should remove the outfit immediately. On stage. Live.

http://i.azcentral.com/commphotos/view/637254.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/G4JRS.gif

ThaVirus
11-12-2012, 03:50 PM
http://www.tshirthell.com/shirts/products/a355/a355.gif?v101512

Eh, that's a bit much.

Chiefs Pantalones
11-12-2012, 04:02 PM
All truth here. They stagger up to you stinking, wanting a Jumbo Jack and a Budweiser.

It's disgusting. My wife, who is originally from Flagstaff (I'm from Kansas City) told me that it has gotten worse over time. They have taken over. I have never felt this much hatred and aggression from people before. Just flat out rude and hateful.

ThaVirus
11-12-2012, 04:08 PM
Do they hate black people too?

EDIT: Are there even any black people there?

Chiefs Pantalones
11-12-2012, 04:11 PM
Do they hate black people too?

EDIT: Are there even any black people there?

Like 13 that I've seen.

vailpass
11-12-2012, 04:13 PM
Do they hate black people too?

EDIT: Are there even any black people there?

It snows there and gets below 40 degrees. That answer your question?

loochy
11-12-2012, 04:16 PM
Linda Kewanimptewa of Prescott posted that she was boycotting the store. oh please, don't stop bringing in your beads to trade. Victoria's Secret will go out of business without people like you. “I loved your stores so much,” she wrote, “but thanks for disrespecting my culture!”


Don't worry, they don't have anything that fits you. You couldn't shop there anyway.

saphojunkie
11-12-2012, 04:20 PM
Women that hot could go in blackface and Al Sharpton would be waiting backstage with a bouquet of flowers and a Viagara.

It's a fucking headdress. Settle.

It wasn't like, "Here's Tawny sporty a sassy satin bathrobe covered in smallpox!"

vailpass
11-12-2012, 04:24 PM
Don't worry, they don't have anything that fits you. You couldn't shop there anyway.
LMAO

Women that hot could go in blackface and Al Sharpton would be waiting backstage with a bouquet of flowers and a Viagara.

It's a ****ing headdress. Settle.

It wasn't like, "Here's Tawny sporty a sassy satin bathrobe covered in smallpox!"

LMAO

Chiefs Pantalones
11-12-2012, 04:26 PM
I believe at some point Buck said he prefers mexican food over BBQ, if I recall correctly...

FUCK OFF, YOU'RE DISRESPECTING MY CULTURE YOU RACIST BASTARD!!!

BigMeatballDave
11-12-2012, 04:46 PM
It snows there and gets below 40 degrees. That answer your question?

Not an accurate answer at all.

vailpass
11-12-2012, 04:50 PM
Not an accurate answer at all.

Thanks Poindexter.

BigMeatballDave
11-12-2012, 04:54 PM
Thanks Poindexter.

I'm just saying, I lived in Ohio for 15 yrs.

It gets well below 40...

scott free
11-12-2012, 04:58 PM
Bitching about the headdress is ridiculous imo... but wow, its a full on stereotype fest in here.

Reads like a thread full of Timmons from dances with wolves... "theys all just a bunch a beggars and thieves and stinkin drunk all da time..."

hometeam
11-12-2012, 05:00 PM
The National Association of Cotton Candy Dealers objects to the hypersexualization of cotton candy puffs.

http://i.azcentral.com/commphotos/view/637234.jpg

http://gifsoup.com/view1/2201448/head-explodes-confetti-o.gif

tredadda
11-12-2012, 05:04 PM
It is sad to think about, but Native Americans are about the only ethnic group where it still seems to be ok to be racist towards. Look at Washington's mascot. Had it been any other ethnic group and their skin color it would have been banned long ago. This goes for Redman tobacco, and the Cleveland Indians mascot with that cheesy smile etc....... I just don't think this woman's fight will go too far.

vailpass
11-12-2012, 05:07 PM
Bitching about the headdress is ridiculous imo... but wow, its a full on stereotype fest in here.

Reads like a thread full of Timmons from dances with wolves... "theys all just a bunch a beggars and thieves and stinkin drunk all da time..."


It is sad to think about, but Native Americans are about the only ethnic group where it still seems to be ok to be racist towards. Look at Washington's mascot. Had it been any other ethnic group and their skin color it would have been banned long ago. This goes for Redman tobacco, and the Cleveland Indians mascot with that cheesy smile etc....... I just don't think this woman's fight will go too far.

LMAO

scott free
11-12-2012, 05:10 PM
LMAO

Cheese all ya want, but thats exactly what it reads like.

And yes, i've lived around native americans in several different places, also have them in my family... and so much of whats being said is pure baloney.

vailpass
11-12-2012, 05:13 PM
Cheese all ya want, but thats exactly what it reads like.

And yes, i've lived around native americans in several different places, also have them in my family... and so much of whats being said is pure baloney.

Which part is pure baloney? Certainly not the drunken panhandling in Flagstaff and New Mexico parts. I've seen it, we have posters in this thread that live/d there and witnessed it as well.
Would you like to tell us what we know?

Raiderhader
11-12-2012, 05:16 PM
Cheese all ya want, but thats exactly what it reads like.

And yes, i've lived around native americans in several different places, also have them in my family... and so much of whats being said is pure baloney.


Yep. A lot of posters working up some bad medicine here.

scott free
11-12-2012, 05:21 PM
Which part is pure baloney? Certainly not the drunken panhandling in Flagstaff and New Mexico parts. I've seen it, we have posters in this thread that live/d there and witnessed it as well.
Would you like to tell us what we know?

I'm sure that behavior has been witnessed, i've witnessed it myself in Great Falls, MT and Fairbanks, AK.

But i dont let it color my perception of an entire race of people either, because i've witnessed good people as well. My best friend in montana was a Crow, my very close uncle is a mix of Blackfoot, Cherokee and Sauk, until two years ago i worked with and really liked another, a SUPER nice guy, would do anything for anyone.

There are misbehaving drunks everywhere and in all colors.

Setsuna
11-12-2012, 05:21 PM
I'm like 12% Cherokee. I'm offended! :# :cuss:

KCUnited
11-12-2012, 05:25 PM
http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/8546/16681312.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/90/16681312.jpg/)

Iowanian
11-12-2012, 05:26 PM
HOW

Rain Man
11-12-2012, 05:36 PM
I'm like 12% Cherokee. I'm offended! :# :cuss:

Are you completely offended or only 12% offended? Because 12% is probably really only slightly indignant.

GloryDayz
11-12-2012, 05:37 PM
There's no way that's offensive. NO WAY! And she looks like she's wearing Mic-O-Say claws!

Chiefs Pantalones
11-12-2012, 05:38 PM
I'm like 12% Cherokee. I'm offended! :# :cuss:

You're 100% black.

Gonzo
11-12-2012, 05:38 PM
Victoria Secret needs to apologize immediately. Maybe send a nice gift-basket full of assorted blankets and beads?

Chiefs Pantalones
11-12-2012, 05:42 PM
I'm sure that behavior has been witnessed, i've witnessed it myself in Great Falls, MT and Fairbanks, AK.

But i dont let it color my perception of an entire race of people either, because i've witnessed good people as well. My best friend in montana was a Crow, my very close uncle is a mix of Blackfoot, Cherokee and Sauk, until two years ago i worked with and really liked another, a SUPER nice guy, would do anything for anyone.

There are misbehaving drunks everywhere and in all colors.

No doubt that it's every race. I'm not exaggerating though. It is EVERYWHERE here. Rudeness and hatred everywhere directed toward anyone not indian. It's like off a movie it's so ridiculous. It's that crazy.

Graystoke
11-12-2012, 05:43 PM
I agree that this is offensive and she should remove the outfit immediately. On stage. Live.

http://i.azcentral.com/commphotos/view/637254.jpg

Just imagine if she got out the Peace Pipe.

I would smoke to a piece...oh yeah1

Aries Walker
11-12-2012, 07:00 PM
Here's how you can tell if Native Americans have it worse than any other ethnic group.

A. Check out Chief Wahoo, the mascot of the Cleveland Indians.

http://images.sodahead.com/polls/001634271/235960865_cleveland_indians_logo_answer_7_xlarge.jpeg

Now imagine it as black, Latino, Asian, Jewish, Arabic, or any other nationality in the world. How do you think members of that nationality would react?

B. Consider the name "Redskins". As above, apply it to any other, using an equivalent term. How long would it take before the corporate headquarters was stormed?

C. Imagine if this thread was about blacks, Latinos, Asians, Jews, Arabs, or any other nationality. How would it have gone over if the equivalent of any of these were said about them?

Native Americans: Should have fought harder, you pussies.

They are evil.

All truth here. They stagger up to you stinking, wanting a Jumbo Jack and a Budweiser.

Maybe send a nice gift-basket full of assorted blankets and beads?

D. Imagine a black, Latino, Asian, Jew or Arab wanting to return to his homeland - to see the heritage of his ancestors, to meet the people descended from their common origins, to see the land from which his family came. Now imagine a Native American wanting to do the same. He can't, because you're standing on it.

E. Imagine if you were a Native American. Imagine growing up on a reservation, where your people were herded centuries ago, and living your whole life in probably the most rampant poverty in the nation. Imagine hearing your grandparents tell of when the schoolteachers would beat them with sticks if they displayed their cultural heritage at all, and seeing the faces of the leaders of the people who victimized you for years blasted into the rock wall of your holy land, to great acclaim. Imagine growing up seeing your people depicted in the movies by Italians and Spaniards, and reading all about European heroes and explorers in history class, but hearing names like Massasoit, Chief Joseph, Opchanacanough, Black Elk, Sequoyah, and Mankiller only at home. Imagine living with this every day of your life, watching the grand history of all of your people vanish by inches from the only place on Earth where it exists, and see anyone who stands up to fight for it dismissed as a drunk, an idiot, or a drunken idiot. Now imagine that one of the few sacred cultural symbols you have left is glamorized and propped on the head of a white runway model in a fashion show.

Sure, there are Natives with a giant chip on their shoulder against white people. There are a lot of them. There are also a lot of white people with giant chips on their shoulders against Natives (some of them in this very thread). Who do you think is more justified in having that chip? And regardless, is it fair to color an entire race of people based only on the ones you stumble across in a Flagstaff 7-11?

Last thing, I promise: In rereading what I just wrote, it occurs to me that this post, while true, is also a preachy, depressing, pompous bloviation on my part. Sorry about that. By way of atonement, I offer you this YouTube about Joe Medicine Crow, a war hero and inspiration, in an effort to temper this atrocity of a post. Enjoy.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/O_9-arto8D8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

MTG#10
11-13-2012, 02:37 PM
My grandma (mom's mother) was pure Blackfoot. So Im 1/4 there plus there is a lot of Cherokee on my dad's side. If I want to trash talk my own people I will. That's what those fuckers get for tearing up our railroads.

Inspector
11-13-2012, 02:43 PM
I have a very strong native American heritage and I would be outraged if I weren't getting so damn drunk again.

durtyrute
11-13-2012, 02:46 PM
The race/color/nationality/people/social/political party-ism is strong on this site.

vailpass
11-13-2012, 02:47 PM
I'm sure that behavior has been witnessed, i've witnessed it myself in Great Falls, MT and Fairbanks, AK.

But i dont let it color my perception of an entire race of people either, because i've witnessed good people as well. My best friend in montana was a Crow, my very close uncle is a mix of Blackfoot, Cherokee and Sauk, until two years ago i worked with and really liked another, a SUPER nice guy, would do anything for anyone.

There are misbehaving drunks everywhere and in all colors.

Of course, nobody thinks the behavior of one group means 100% of that people act the same way.

The point of this thread is to lament the efforts of some natives to control what private entities can do, say, wear, etc. with images and concepts that have become part of the public domain.

vailpass
11-13-2012, 02:49 PM
Here's how you can tell if Native Americans have it worse than any other ethnic group.

A. Check out Chief Wahoo, the mascot of the Cleveland Indians.

http://images.sodahead.com/polls/001634271/235960865_cleveland_indians_logo_answer_7_xlarge.jpeg

Now imagine it as black, Latino, Asian, Jewish, Arabic, or any other nationality in the world. How do you think members of that nationality would react?

B. Consider the name "Redskins". As above, apply it to any other, using an equivalent term. How long would it take before the corporate headquarters was stormed?

C. Imagine if this thread was about blacks, Latinos, Asians, Jews, Arabs, or any other nationality. How would it have gone over if the equivalent of any of these were said about them?









D. Imagine a black, Latino, Asian, Jew or Arab wanting to return to his homeland - to see the heritage of his ancestors, to meet the people descended from their common origins, to see the land from which his family came. Now imagine a Native American wanting to do the same. He can't, because you're standing on it.

E. Imagine if you were a Native American. Imagine growing up on a reservation, where your people were herded centuries ago, and living your whole life in probably the most rampant poverty in the nation. Imagine hearing your grandparents tell of when the schoolteachers would beat them with sticks if they displayed their cultural heritage at all, and seeing the faces of the leaders of the people who victimized you for years blasted into the rock wall of your holy land, to great acclaim. Imagine growing up seeing your people depicted in the movies by Italians and Spaniards, and reading all about European heroes and explorers in history class, but hearing names like Massasoit, Chief Joseph, Opchanacanough, Black Elk, Sequoyah, and Mankiller only at home. Imagine living with this every day of your life, watching the grand history of all of your people vanish by inches from the only place on Earth where it exists, and see anyone who stands up to fight for it dismissed as a drunk, an idiot, or a drunken idiot. Now imagine that one of the few sacred cultural symbols you have left is glamorized and propped on the head of a white runway model in a fashion show.

Sure, there are Natives with a giant chip on their shoulder against white people. There are a lot of them. There are also a lot of white people with giant chips on their shoulders against Natives (some of them in this very thread). Who do you think is more justified in having that chip? And regardless, is it fair to color an entire race of people based only on the ones you stumble across in a Flagstaff 7-11?

Last thing, I promise: In rereading what I just wrote, it occurs to me that this post, while true, is also a preachy, depressing, pompous bloviation on my part. Sorry about that. By way of atonement, I offer you this YouTube about Joe Medicine Crow, a war hero and inspiration, in an effort to temper this atrocity of a post. Enjoy.



You obviously put a lot of thought and effort into this post. I feel kinda' bad for not reading it.

Pestilence
11-13-2012, 02:52 PM
Here's how you can tell if Native Americans have it worse than any other ethnic group.

A. Check out Chief Wahoo, the mascot of the Cleveland Indians.

http://images.sodahead.com/polls/001634271/235960865_cleveland_indians_logo_answer_7_xlarge.jpeg

Now imagine it as black, Latino, Asian, Jewish, Arabic, or any other nationality in the world. How do you think members of that nationality would react?

B. Consider the name "Redskins". As above, apply it to any other, using an equivalent term. How long would it take before the corporate headquarters was stormed?

C. Imagine if this thread was about blacks, Latinos, Asians, Jews, Arabs, or any other nationality. How would it have gone over if the equivalent of any of these were said about them?









D. Imagine a black, Latino, Asian, Jew or Arab wanting to return to his homeland - to see the heritage of his ancestors, to meet the people descended from their common origins, to see the land from which his family came. Now imagine a Native American wanting to do the same. He can't, because you're standing on it.

E. Imagine if you were a Native American. Imagine growing up on a reservation, where your people were herded centuries ago, and living your whole life in probably the most rampant poverty in the nation. Imagine hearing your grandparents tell of when the schoolteachers would beat them with sticks if they displayed their cultural heritage at all, and seeing the faces of the leaders of the people who victimized you for years blasted into the rock wall of your holy land, to great acclaim. Imagine growing up seeing your people depicted in the movies by Italians and Spaniards, and reading all about European heroes and explorers in history class, but hearing names like Massasoit, Chief Joseph, Opchanacanough, Black Elk, Sequoyah, and Mankiller only at home. Imagine living with this every day of your life, watching the grand history of all of your people vanish by inches from the only place on Earth where it exists, and see anyone who stands up to fight for it dismissed as a drunk, an idiot, or a drunken idiot. Now imagine that one of the few sacred cultural symbols you have left is glamorized and propped on the head of a white runway model in a fashion show.

Sure, there are Natives with a giant chip on their shoulder against white people. There are a lot of them. There are also a lot of white people with giant chips on their shoulders against Natives (some of them in this very thread). Who do you think is more justified in having that chip? And regardless, is it fair to color an entire race of people based only on the ones you stumble across in a Flagstaff 7-11?

Last thing, I promise: In rereading what I just wrote, it occurs to me that this post, while true, is also a preachy, depressing, pompous bloviation on my part. Sorry about that. By way of atonement, I offer you this YouTube about Joe Medicine Crow, a war hero and inspiration, in an effort to temper this atrocity of a post. Enjoy.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/O_9-arto8D8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

And now think about all of the crimes that have been committed by Native Americans.....who in turn run back to the Reservation where the police have no authority.

durtyrute
11-13-2012, 02:53 PM
And now think about all of the crimes that have been committed by Native Americans.....who in turn run back to the Reservation where the police have no authority.

You're right, that fixes everything.

vailpass
11-13-2012, 03:00 PM
You're right, that fixes everything.

Yes it does. Well, that and casinos.

MTG#10
11-13-2012, 03:01 PM
I have a very strong native American heritage and I would be outraged if I weren't getting so damn drunk again.
ROFL

MagicHef
11-13-2012, 03:13 PM
This seems like as good a place as any to leave this:

www.cracked.com/article_19864_6-ridiculous-lies-you-believe-about-founding-america.html

Aries Walker
11-13-2012, 05:18 PM
And now think about all of the crimes that have been committed by Native Americans.....who in turn run back to the Reservation where the police have no authority.
That is the dumbest retort in the history of dumb retorts. Besides the fact that it ignores the crimes committed against Natives - whose police force has no jurisdiction on non-tribal lands - it also conveniently ignores the fact that federal forces have total jurisdiction on tribal lands, and can and do arrest criminals while on them.

The "hiding on tribal lands" concept is no better for any fleeing criminal than crossing a state line.

Psyko Tek
11-13-2012, 06:29 PM
The Irish object to the hypersexualization of Irish women.

http://i.azcentral.com/commphotos/view/637209.jpg

erin go bra-less

ClevelandBronco
11-13-2012, 08:38 PM
Here's how you can tell if Native Americans have it worse than any other ethnic group.

A. Check out Chief Wahoo, the mascot of the Cleveland Indians.

http://images.sodahead.com/polls/001634271/235960865_cleveland_indians_logo_answer_7_xlarge.jpeg

Great logo. Shut the fuck up.

ClevelandBronco
11-13-2012, 08:39 PM
You obviously put a lot of thought and effort into this post. I feel kinda' bad for not reading it.

Was there more than the part I just quoted? I hadn't noticed.

Come to think of it, I didn't read all of that part either.

RJ
11-13-2012, 08:43 PM
I am offended by the people who are offended by people who are offended.

ClevelandBronco
11-13-2012, 08:45 PM
I am offended by the people who are offended by people who are offended.

I'm fucking lost.

Rausch
11-13-2012, 08:45 PM
My grandma (mom's mother) was pure Blackfoot. So Im 1/4 there plus there is a lot of Cherokee on my dad's side. If I want to trash talk my own people I will. That's what those ****ers get for tearing up our railroads.

Love a good sense of humor.


As far as I know there isn't a single German mascot or icon. When you look at just how many krauts there are in this country that's crazy.

I mean "The Fighting Irish?" Really? The Germans helped launch 2 world wars for fuck's sake.

Time to hit the interwebnets...I want a good racist German mascot...

ClevelandBronco
11-13-2012, 08:52 PM
Love a good sense of humor.


As far as I know there isn't a single German mascot or icon. When you look at just how many krauts there are in this country that's crazy.

I mean "The Fighting Irish?" Really? The Germans helped launch 2 world wars for ****'s sake.

Time to hit the interwebnets...I want a good racist German mascot...

I think that this one didn't last:

http://chronicle.com/img/photos/biz/Nicholls3.jpg

Rain Man
11-13-2012, 09:35 PM
This seems like as good a place as any to leave this:

www.cracked.com/article_19864_6-ridiculous-lies-you-believe-about-founding-america.html


I'm a big fan of cracked.com. Best damn journalists on the planet.

ThaVirus
11-13-2012, 09:47 PM
Here's how you can tell if Native Americans have it worse than any other ethnic group.

A. Check out Chief Wahoo, the mascot of the Cleveland Indians.

http://images.sodahead.com/polls/001634271/235960865_cleveland_indians_logo_answer_7_xlarge.jpeg

Now imagine it as black, Latino, Asian, Jewish, Arabic, or any other nationality in the world. How do you think members of that nationality would react?

B. Consider the name "Redskins". As above, apply it to any other, using an equivalent term. How long would it take before the corporate headquarters was stormed?

C. Imagine if this thread was about blacks, Latinos, Asians, Jews, Arabs, or any other nationality. How would it have gone over if the equivalent of any of these were said about them?









D. Imagine a black, Latino, Asian, Jew or Arab wanting to return to his homeland - to see the heritage of his ancestors, to meet the people descended from their common origins, to see the land from which his family came. Now imagine a Native American wanting to do the same. He can't, because you're standing on it.

E. Imagine if you were a Native American. Imagine growing up on a reservation, where your people were herded centuries ago, and living your whole life in probably the most rampant poverty in the nation. Imagine hearing your grandparents tell of when the schoolteachers would beat them with sticks if they displayed their cultural heritage at all, and seeing the faces of the leaders of the people who victimized you for years blasted into the rock wall of your holy land, to great acclaim. Imagine growing up seeing your people depicted in the movies by Italians and Spaniards, and reading all about European heroes and explorers in history class, but hearing names like Massasoit, Chief Joseph, Opchanacanough, Black Elk, Sequoyah, and Mankiller only at home. Imagine living with this every day of your life, watching the grand history of all of your people vanish by inches from the only place on Earth where it exists, and see anyone who stands up to fight for it dismissed as a drunk, an idiot, or a drunken idiot. Now imagine that one of the few sacred cultural symbols you have left is glamorized and propped on the head of a white runway model in a fashion show.

Sure, there are Natives with a giant chip on their shoulder against white people. There are a lot of them. There are also a lot of white people with giant chips on their shoulders against Natives (some of them in this very thread). Who do you think is more justified in having that chip? And regardless, is it fair to color an entire race of people based only on the ones you stumble across in a Flagstaff 7-11?

Last thing, I promise: In rereading what I just wrote, it occurs to me that this post, while true, is also a preachy, depressing, pompous bloviation on my part. Sorry about that. By way of atonement, I offer you this YouTube about Joe Medicine Crow, a war hero and inspiration, in an effort to temper this atrocity of a post. Enjoy.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/O_9-arto8D8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Pretty good post.

ThaVirus
11-14-2012, 10:19 AM
Is that Cracked.com site factual?

vailpass
11-14-2012, 10:50 AM
I am offended by the people who are offended by people who are offended.

LMAO

listopencil
11-14-2012, 10:58 AM
Is that Cracked.com site factual?

Follow the links. I'm fond of Mesa Verde myself.

http://www.empoweringparks.com/Mesa-Verde-National-Park-Cliff-Palace-2.jpg

vailpass
11-14-2012, 10:59 AM
Follow the links. I'm fond of Mesa Verde myself.

http://www.empoweringparks.com/Mesa-Verde-National-Park-Cliff-Palace-2.jpg

Yeah. Folks took us there when we were kids, couldn't believe it was real.
Those people lived up so high. How they hell could they have made that by hand? So cool.

listopencil
11-14-2012, 11:05 AM
Yeah. Folks took us there when we were kids, couldn't believe it was real.
Those people lived up so high. How they hell could they have made that by hand? So cool.

My dad took me up there as a teen. It's an incredible experience. Especially if you've been spoon fed "history" like I was as a child. Here is this city created in a cliff. As complex as a European castle. Built by "savages."

MagicHef
11-14-2012, 12:13 PM
Is that Cracked.com site factual?

You can check their references yourself, they cite basically every non-opinion thing they claim. One of their references is a resolution passed by congress recognizing the influence of the Iroquois Confederacy on the US Constitution.

ThaVirus
11-14-2012, 12:13 PM
Follow the links. I'm fond of Mesa Verde myself.


I did and it seemed factual but I noticed it was a humor site so I had to ask.

I found the bit about the Vikings interesting. I had heard they had sailed to Nova Scotia as early as 1200 AD but never heard of any encounters with the natives, and definitely not as early as 960 AD.

There just so much information, and with that misinformation, out there. I wish I could know it all!

listopencil
11-14-2012, 12:20 PM
I did and it seemed factual but I noticed it was a humor site so I had to ask.

I found the bit about the Vikings interesting. I had heard they had sailed to Nova Scotia as early as 1200 AD but never heard of any encounters with the natives, and definitely not as early as 960 AD.

There just so much information, and with that misinformation, out there. I wish I could know it all!

Leif Ericson.

ThaVirus
11-14-2012, 12:27 PM
I wonder how things would have turned out had the Native Americans had resistances to Old World diseases.

The whole ordeal would have taken a lot longer, that's for sure. Assuming the tribes were able to band together for a common cause, we might have seen an infusion of white settlers into Native societies as opposed to what happened..

vailpass
11-14-2012, 12:29 PM
My dad took me up there as a teen. It's an incredible experience. Especially if you've been spoon fed "history" like I was as a child. Here is this city created in a cliff. As complex as a European castle. Built by "savages."

Savages? I don't think anyone has said or thought that since the days of the Wild Wild West have they?

MagicHef
11-14-2012, 12:46 PM
I wonder how things would have turned out had the Native Americans had resistances to Old World diseases.

The whole ordeal would have taken a lot longer, that's for sure. Assuming the tribes were able to band together for a common cause, we might have seen an infusion of white settlers into Native societies as opposed to what happened..

White people in North America would be like white people in the other places England tried to expand into (India, China, Africa): a small minority.

listopencil
11-14-2012, 12:48 PM
Savages? I don't think anyone has said or thought that since the days of the Wild Wild West have they?

When I was a child the common thread was that these people were a small step above cavemen, and benefited greatly from our civilizing influence.

vailpass
11-14-2012, 12:49 PM
White people in North America would be like white people in the other places England tried to expand into (India, China, Africa): a small minority.

Big difference between North America at the time and the others you name here.

MagicHef
11-14-2012, 12:57 PM
Big difference between North America at the time and the others you name here.

Yes, ~90% of the people in North America had just been wiped out by the worst plague in human history. That didn't happen in India, China, or Africa.

vailpass
11-14-2012, 12:59 PM
When I was a child the common thread was that these people were a small step above cavemen, and benefited greatly from our civilizing influence.

That's horrible.

vailpass
11-14-2012, 01:02 PM
Yes, ~90% of the people in North America had just been wiped out by the worst plague in human history. That didn't happen in India, China, or Africa.

What were the populations of those other three countries vs. NA?

Do you not agree that there are non-plague related reasons the natives in NA weren't equipped to resist colonization.

Bwana
11-14-2012, 01:11 PM
Geez, they need to get a grip. :shake: Some people like to bitch, just to bitch.

MagicHef
11-14-2012, 01:12 PM
What were the populations of those other three countries vs. NA?

Do you not agree that there are non-plague related reasons the natives in NA weren't equipped to resist colonization.

From a quick Google search, so they may not be super accurate, but populations in 1600:

China: 231-250 million
India: 100 million
Africa: 50 million
North America: ~100 million (before plague)

Also, the English and the like had been trying to colonize North America for at least 150 years, and had failed. The Vikings had been trying for 500 years.

listopencil
11-14-2012, 01:20 PM
That's horrible.

Well, it could be regional. I was born in Virginia. We moved to Texas the Summer before I started elementary school, I did not go to kindergarten or day care. We moved back to Virginia the Summer before I started Jr. High School. I moved to Colorado during High School. I think that gave me an atypical education and made me more aware of prejudice that might otherwise have gone unnoticed.

Virginia: The Pilgrims created our country with the help of the Founding Fathers. Along the way we showed the Indians how to bathe and act like civilized men. Afterwards, the state of Virginia defeated the British.

Texas: Texas was already here. It's always been here. By the time the Easterners made it out this far we had already killed off all of our Indians and were busy eating cows and killing Spaniards/Mexicans.

Colorado: Well, yeah, what we did to the Indians was pretty fucked up. But it's not like we're going to stop here and give all of their shit back. We kept some of their stuff around. You can go see it.

Frosty
11-14-2012, 01:27 PM
Virginia: The Pilgrims created our country with the help of the Founding Fathers. Along the way we showed the Indians how to bathe and act like civilized men. Afterwards, the state of Virginia defeated the British.

The funny thing is that the English actually didn't believe in bathing then and the Natives thought they were disgusting.

listopencil
11-14-2012, 01:28 PM
The funny thing is that the English actually didn't believe in bathing then and the Natives thought they were disgusting.

No, don't go introducing facts into history. You'll mess it up.

vailpass
11-14-2012, 01:28 PM
Well, it could be regional. I was born in Virginia. We moved to Texas the Summer before I started elementary school, I did not go to kindergarten or day care. We moved back to Virginia the Summer before I started Jr. High School. I moved to Colorado during High School. I think that gave me an atypical education and made me more aware of prejudice that might otherwise have gone unnoticed.

Virginia: The Pilgrims created our country with the help of the Founding Fathers. Along the way we showed the Indians how to bathe and act like civilized men. Afterwards, the state of Virginia defeated the British.

Texas: Texas was already here. It's always been here. By the time the Easterners made it out this far we had already killed off all of our Indians and were busy eating cows and killing Spaniards/Mexicans.

Colorado: Well, yeah, what we did to the Indians was pretty ****ed up. But it's not like we're going to stop here and give all of their shit back. We kept some of their stuff around. You can go see it.

I can see how those viewpoints would have come about. Growing up in Iowa we had Indian (native american) influence all over. Lots of our towns, rivers, creeks, counties were named with Indian names. We went to Cherokee, IA to see the rain dancers. We grew up knowing and learning how resourceful a people the midwest Indian was; how large their culture was, how sad that they had gone.

vailpass
11-14-2012, 01:29 PM
From a quick Google search, so they may not be super accurate, but populations in 1600:

China: 231-250 million
India: 100 million
Africa: 50 million
North America: ~100 million (before plague)

Also, the English and the like had been trying to colonize North America for at least 150 years, and had failed. The Vikings had been trying for 500 years.

90% of them had died prior to the arrival of the colonists?

listopencil
11-14-2012, 01:30 PM
Man. I just vividly remembered an argument I had with one of my elementary school teachers. We had to memorize the state bird, flower, animal, etc. She told us it was illegal to pick Bluebonnets and I thought that was silly. That didn't go over well.

MagicHef
11-14-2012, 01:36 PM
90% of them had died prior to the arrival of the colonists?

Estimates seem to range from 90 to 95%.

www.pbs.org/gunsgermssteel/variables/smallpox.html

listopencil
11-14-2012, 01:37 PM
I can see how those viewpoints would have come about. Growing up in Iowa we had Indian (native american) influence all over. Lots of our towns, rivers, creeks, counties were named with Indian names. We went to Cherokee, IA to see the rain dancers. We grew up knowing and learning how resourceful a people the midwest Indian was; how large their culture was, how sad that they had gone.

It's sad that I didn't find out about my small amount of Native American heritage until I was a teenager. My grandmother mentioned it to me only once. When she left the room after explaining it (a lot of the "Indian Princess" stuff) my grandfather leaned over to me and mumbled, "Just another nigger."

Not exactly a ringing endorsement for multiculturalism, is it?

Frosty
11-14-2012, 01:39 PM
No, don't go introducing facts into history. You'll mess it up.

True. When I was in school (PNW in the 70's), we were taught that Indians were nobel savages that revered and lived as one with nature. Then the greedy evil white man came in with their guns and smallpox and wiped most of them out. Turns out that it was a lot more complex than that.

1491: New Revelations of the Americas Before Columbus (http://www.amazon.com/1491-Revelations-Americas-Before-Columbus/dp/1400032059) by Charles Mann is a good book on the subject.

vailpass
11-14-2012, 01:39 PM
It's sad that I didn't find out about my small amount of Native American heritage until I was a teenager. My grandmother mentioned it to me only once. When she left the room after explaining it (a lot of the "Indian Princess" stuff) my grandfather leaned over to me and mumbled, "Just another ****er."

Not exactly a ringing endorsement for multiculturalism, is it?

LMAO

loochy
11-14-2012, 01:42 PM
It's sad that I didn't find out about my small amount of Native American heritage until I was a teenager. My grandmother mentioned it to me only once. When she left the room after explaining it (a lot of the "Indian Princess" stuff) my grandfather leaned over to me and mumbled, "Just another ****er."

Not exactly a ringing endorsement for multiculturalism, is it?

a "what"er?

listopencil
11-14-2012, 01:49 PM
a "what"er?

That particular slur is rightfully filtered. Use your imagination. Lucky for me that my uncle happens to be an archeologist so I was able to find out more.

Rain Man
11-14-2012, 02:08 PM
Estimates seem to range from 90 to 95%.

www.pbs.org/gunsgermssteel/variables/smallpox.html


I think I mentioned this in a thread a while back, but the thing I don't get is why this was a one-way deal. Europeans show up and cough, and 90 million Native Americans start dying. But why didn't the Native Americans cough and kill all of the arriving Europeans?

And presumably no diseases went back to Europe with Columbus and John Smith and Verrazano and all those guys. Why not? Why didn't Europe take the same disease beatdown that the Native Americans took? Was it just sheer luck? Did the Viking expeditions somehow inoculate Europeans? And why didn't the Vikings start the North American plague? Or is it possible that something like the Black Plague was carried from America with the Vikings and nailed the white folk 200 years earlier?

listopencil
11-14-2012, 02:11 PM
I think I mentioned this in a thread a while back, but the thing I don't get is why this was a one-way deal. Europeans show up and cough, and 90 million Native Americans start dying. But why didn't the Native Americans cough and kill all of the arriving Europeans?

And presumably no diseases went back to Europe with Columbus and John Smith and Verrazano and all those guys. Why not? Why didn't Europe take the same disease beatdown that the Native Americans took? Was it just sheer luck? Did the Viking expeditions somehow inoculate Europeans? And why didn't the Vikings start the North American plague? Or is it possible that something like the Black Plague was carried from America with the Vikings and nailed the white folk 200 years earlier?

The Europeans lived in cramped conditions with a long history of animal husbandry. They had already been through multiple plagues and represented, genetically, the survivors of those plagues.

Frosty
11-14-2012, 02:14 PM
I think I mentioned this in a thread a while back, but the thing I don't get is why this was a one-way deal. Europeans show up and cough, and 90 million Native Americans start dying. But why didn't the Native Americans cough and kill all of the arriving Europeans?

And presumably no diseases went back to Europe with Columbus and John Smith and Verrazano and all those guys. Why not? Why didn't Europe take the same disease beatdown that the Native Americans took? Was it just sheer luck? Did the Viking expeditions somehow inoculate Europeans? And why didn't the Vikings start the North American plague? Or is it possible that something like the Black Plague was carried from America with the Vikings and nailed the white folk 200 years earlier?

Off the top of my head, the reason the NA's were so susceptible is because they were such a homogeneous group that they genetically weren't prepared to deal with the infections. Things that would just get a European under the weather could be devastating to NA's. More diverse groups like the Europeans were actually more susceptible to parasites.

Sorry for the shoddy explanation. It was in the book that I mentioned above but it's been awhile since I've read that part and I don't remember the exact reasoning.

Rain Man
11-14-2012, 02:17 PM
Ah, nice answers. Thanks.

So essentially the Native Americans died because they had healthy country lifestyles in fresh air and they didn't score with Asian and African chicks.

listopencil
11-14-2012, 02:19 PM
Ah, nice answers. Thanks.

So essentially the Native Americans died because they had healthy country lifestyles in fresh air and they didn't score with Asian and African chicks.

Imagine what this country would be like had there been an unbroken line of Native American population into the modern world.

Grim
11-14-2012, 02:26 PM
Off the top of my head, the reason the NA's were so susceptible is because they were such a homogeneous group that they genetically weren't prepared to deal with the infections. Things that would just get a European under the weather could be devastating to NA's. More diverse groups like the Europeans were actually more susceptible to parasites.

Sorry for the shoddy explanation. It was in the book that I mentioned above but it's been awhile since I've read that part and I don't remember the exact reasoning.

I've heard that as well.
It's the same problem that a lot of our endangered animal species face (cheetahs specifically).
New genes in the pool is never a bad thing.

Rain Man
11-14-2012, 02:36 PM
Imagine what this country would be like had there been an unbroken line of Native American population into the modern world.

I'm envisioning more of a Palestine/Israel situation.

One thing that the ancient civilizations were good at was wiping out the indigenous people when they took over a place. It made continued resistance a non-issue. It apparently happened more accidentally in the New World, but it still happened, and the Europeans ended up with an easier conquest as a result.

The Romans appear to be a big exception to that rule, though, which says that you can take over a place and not have to kill everyone who was there before. But I think the Romans brought a lot of benefits with them and gave full citizenship to the conquered people, so maybe that quelled resistance as much as killing would've.

It makes one wonder if we offered American citizenship to Iraq and let them be the 52nd state (after Puerto Rico, apparently), would that place settle down? I'm only half joking on this.

Frosty
11-14-2012, 02:41 PM
I'm envisioning more of a Palestine/Israel situation.

One thing that the ancient civilizations were good at was wiping out the indigenous people when they took over a place.


Actually, it was more likely that the conquerors relocated the natives and moved their own people into the newly taken area. The native people were integrated into other areas of the empire, sometimes as slaves, sometimes as citizens.

Wholesale slaughter is a waste of resources and enslaving an entire population takes too much manpower to oversee. That's why the Romans did it the way that they did.

listopencil
11-14-2012, 02:48 PM
I'm envisioning more of a Palestine/Israel situation.

One thing that the ancient civilizations were good at was wiping out the indigenous people when they took over a place. It made continued resistance a non-issue. It apparently happened more accidentally in the New World, but it still happened, and the Europeans ended up with an easier conquest as a result.

The Romans appear to be a big exception to that rule, though, which says that you can take over a place and not have to kill everyone who was there before. But I think the Romans brought a lot of benefits with them and gave full citizenship to the conquered people, so maybe that quelled resistance as much as killing would've.

It makes one wonder if we offered American citizenship to Iraq and let them be the 52nd state (after Puerto Rico, apparently), would that place settle down? I'm only half joking on this.

You are assuming that a European victory is assured. That's not necessarily true. They would hold a technological advantage at first. But it's not like the natives had no ranged weps. Then would come problems with that long supply line and keeping weapons out of the native's hands.

listopencil
11-14-2012, 02:52 PM
Another fun idea for a Red Dawn remake. Alternate history prequel. The native population isn't wiped out. North and South America have to fight off Northern and Southern Europe.

listopencil
11-14-2012, 02:54 PM
Fast forward a few hundred years at the end of the movie with the United Tribes of the People worrying about China.

Rain Man
11-14-2012, 03:01 PM
You are assuming that a European victory is assured. That's not necessarily true. They would hold a technological advantage at first. But it's not like the natives had no ranged weps. Then would come problems with that long supply line and keeping weapons out of the native's hands.

It seems to me, though, that the Native Americans were too decentralized. Defeating 90 million Native Americans would be very tough, but I don't think that's the war. I think the war is defeating one tribe and then moving on to the next one. It seems like the eastern tribes would work together, but I don't think the western tribes did much of that at all, and they certainly wouldn't send troops east.

It seems like the Native Americans' best chances would be that the eastern tribes would ally and stop the Europeans at the beaches. If they got past the eastern tribes, I think they'd roll west to the sea like Sherman.

listopencil
11-14-2012, 03:14 PM
Make it a series.

Episode one: The birth of the United Tribes of the People in the North and the Empire of the Three Kingdoms to the South. Freedom seeking Europeans flock to the continents to set up industrial enterprises taking advantage of the natural resources available. They become rich business tycoons and help to shape native society.

Episode two: Civil war rocks the Tribes and the Kingdoms develop into a republic. Both countries come out of it potentially stronger than they were before, and eventually take their place as a geopolitical force.

Episode three: World War One breaks and the natives sell arms to both sides, some citizens go to Europe to fight. Horrible sanctions levied by the winning side lead to economic collapse by the losers, prompting another war. The natives actively involve themselves this time and truly establish themselves as a world power.

loochy
11-14-2012, 03:15 PM
OMG this is a great idea for a video game

vailpass
11-14-2012, 03:21 PM
OMG this is a great idea for a video game

LMAO Holy shit. They complained about a supermodel hotty wearing a headress looking F-I-N-E fine.

What would they say about a video game featuring Chief Scalpum and hit merry band of tomahawking men?

loochy
11-14-2012, 03:24 PM
LMAO Holy shit. They complained about a supermodel hotty wearing a headress looking F-I-N-E fine.

What would they say about a video game featuring Chief Scalpum and hit merry band of tomahawking men?

DUDE you could choose the one of the indian tribes, the english, or the french.

You could pick your loadout and transportation based on your culture.

You could make strategic alliances.

You could use terrain in your homelands to your advantage.

This would be all kinds of awesome as a first person shooter / strategy / RPG mix.

vailpass
11-14-2012, 03:28 PM
DUDE you could choose the one of the indian tribes, the english, or the french.

You could pick your loadout and transportation based on your culture.

You could make strategic alliances.

You could use terrain in your homelands to your advantage.

This would be all kinds of awesome as a first person shooter / strategy / RPG mix.

Sounds very interesting and I'm not a regular video game player. I'd love to see it; complete with historically accurate weaponry, tactics, etc. for all groups. Are there smallpox blankets in the arsenal?

listopencil
11-14-2012, 03:28 PM
DUDE you could choose the one of the indian tribes, the english, or the french.

You could pick your loadout and transportation based on your culture.

You could make strategic alliances.

You could use terrain in your homelands to your advantage.

This would be all kinds of awesome as a first person shooter / strategy / RPG mix.


It would be a blast. Also you would need to form a relationship with the Three Kingdoms (Aztec, Inca, Mayan by the way) to secure the southern border. A mutual non aggression pact while they deal with Spain and Portugal. It would like Nobunaga's Ambition but much better.

vailpass
11-14-2012, 03:29 PM
It would be a blast. Also you would need to form a relationship with the Three Kingdoms (Aztec, Inca, Mayan by the way) to secure the southern border. A mutual non aggression pact while they deal with Spain and Portugal. It would like Nobunaga's Ambition but much better.

Approx. when did those folks die out/go away?

loochy
11-14-2012, 03:33 PM
Are there smallpox blankets in the arsenal?

Yes, but they only work if the indians decide to accept them. Factors that may play into that include the status of relations with the european faction and current weather and supply conditions.

listopencil
11-14-2012, 03:33 PM
Approx. when did those folks die out/go away?

The Mayans around 1400 I think, but for purposes of the alternate history they solved their infrastructure problems and were still thriving.

listopencil
11-14-2012, 03:36 PM
From one of the links in the Cracked article:


Smallpox is believed to have arrived in the Americas in 1520 on a Spanish ship sailing from Cuba, carried by an infected African slave. As soon as the party landed in Mexico, the infection began its deadly voyage through the continent. Even before the arrival of Pizarro, smallpox had already devastated the Inca Empire, killing the Emperor Huayna Capac and unleashing a bitter civil war that distracted and weakened his successor, Atahuallpa.

vailpass
11-14-2012, 03:43 PM
Yes, but they only work if the indians decide to accept them. Factors that may play into that include the status of relations with the european faction and current weather and supply conditions.

Okay I'm starting to like this. Who can we get with to develop this? I'd be an investor if the right business plan was in place.

vailpass
11-14-2012, 03:43 PM
The Mayans around 1400 I think, but for purposes of the alternate history they solved their infrastructure problems and were still thriving.

thx

Chiefs Pantalones
11-14-2012, 03:45 PM
Imagine if history would've been different we would've had...

Native American Idol
Native American Bandstand
Native American Eagle
United States of Native America
Native America the Beautiful
Native American Pie, Wedding, Reunion
Native American cheese
African Native American
Native American Ninja

So much history there.

loochy
11-14-2012, 03:50 PM
Imagine if history would've been different we would've had...

Native American Idol
Native American Bandstand
Native American Eagle
United States of Native America
Native America the Beautiful
Native American Pie, Wedding, Reunion
Native American cheese
African Native American
Native American Ninja

So much history there.

Instead of Jersey Shore there'd be Lake Huron Shore.

vailpass
11-14-2012, 03:53 PM
So bye, bye Miss Native American Pie, rode my pony to the levy but the levy was dry
Good ol braves, drinkin' firewater and shine
Singing "just another day in the tribe. Just another day in the tribe."

Chiefs Pantalones
11-14-2012, 03:53 PM
Instead of Jersey Shore there'd be Lake Huron Shore.

Instead of the movie The Wood there'd be The Rez.

Chiefs Pantalones
11-14-2012, 03:54 PM
So bye, bye Miss Native American Pie, rode my pony to the levy but the levy was dry
Good ol braves, drinkin' firewater and shine
Singing "just another day in the tribe. Just another day in the tribe."

LMAO

To the studio with this NOW

Chiefs Pantalones
11-14-2012, 03:55 PM
Native American woman, get away from me

loochy
11-14-2012, 03:57 PM
I am a real Native American, Fight for the rights of every man,
I am a real Native American, fight for what's right, fight for your life!

When it comes crashing down, and it hurts inside,
ya' gotta take a stand, it don't help to hide,
Well, you hurt my friends, and you hurt my pride,
I gotta be a man; I can't let it slide,
I am a real Native American, Fight for the rights of every man,
I am a real Native American, fight for what's right, fight for your life!

I feel strong about right and wrong,
And I don't take trouble for very long,
I got something deep inside of me, and courage is the thing that keeps us free,
I am a real Native American, Fight for the rights of every man,
I am a real Native American, fight for what's right, fight for your life!

Well you hurt my friends, and you hurt my pride,
I gotta be a man; I can't let it slide,
I am a real Native American, Fight for the rights of every man,
I am a real Native American, fight for what's right, fight for your life!
I am a real Native American, Fight for the rights of every man,
I am a real Native American, fight for what's right, fight for your life!

loochy
11-14-2012, 03:58 PM
We'd have the Washington Peachskins

Chiefs Pantalones
11-14-2012, 04:01 PM
Native American Psycho
Native American Werewolf in Paris


Big Mutton with cheese

Chiefs Pantalones
11-14-2012, 04:02 PM
I am a real Native American, Fight for the rights of every man,
I am a real Native American, fight for what's right, fight for your life!

When it comes crashing down, and it hurts inside,
ya' gotta take a stand, it don't help to hide,
Well, you hurt my friends, and you hurt my pride,
I gotta be a man; I can't let it slide,
I am a real Native American, Fight for the rights of every man,
I am a real Native American, fight for what's right, fight for your life!

I feel strong about right and wrong,
And I don't take trouble for very long,
I got something deep inside of me, and courage is the thing that keeps us free,
I am a real Native American, Fight for the rights of every man,
I am a real Native American, fight for what's right, fight for your life!

Well you hurt my friends, and you hurt my pride,
I gotta be a man; I can't let it slide,
I am a real Native American, Fight for the rights of every man,
I am a real Native American, fight for what's right, fight for your life!
I am a real Native American, Fight for the rights of every man,
I am a real Native American, fight for what's right, fight for your life!
LMAO

Chiefs Pantalones
11-14-2012, 04:05 PM
Cleveland Whites
Kansas City Presidents
Washington Whiteskins
Atlanta Upperclassmen
Florida State Blue Collars

Chiefs Pantalones
11-14-2012, 04:17 PM
The Red House
Pentayazzi
The Sioux Chapel
The Horse of Representatives

listopencil
11-14-2012, 05:22 PM
See, I'm still going with the United Tribes of the People for USA. Which language would become predominant? What tribe might be politically savvy enough for their language to be the official language of the land? Iroquois? The United Tribes of Iroquois? Bye, bye Miss Iroquois Pie?

okoye35chiefs
11-14-2012, 05:29 PM
I am a real Native American, Fight for the rights of every man,
I am a real Native American, fight for what's right, fight for your life!

When it comes crashing down, and it hurts inside,
ya' gotta take a stand, it don't help to hide,
Well, you hurt my friends, and you hurt my pride,
I gotta be a man; I can't let it slide,
I am a real Native American, Fight for the rights of every man,
I am a real Native American, fight for what's right, fight for your life!

I feel strong about right and wrong,
And I don't take trouble for very long,
I got something deep inside of me, and courage is the thing that keeps us free,
I am a real Native American, Fight for the rights of every man,
I am a real Native American, fight for what's right, fight for your life!

Well you hurt my friends, and you hurt my pride,
I gotta be a man; I can't let it slide,
I am a real Native American, Fight for the rights of every man,
I am a real Native American, fight for what's right, fight for your life!
I am a real Native American, Fight for the rights of every man,
I am a real Native American, fight for what's right, fight for your life!

ROFL:clap:

listopencil
11-14-2012, 05:31 PM
So bye, bye Miss Native American Pie, rode my pony to the levy but the levy was dry
Good ol braves, drinkin' firewater and shine
Singing "just another day in the tribe. Just another day in the tribe."


You may be onto something here.

Aries Walker
11-14-2012, 09:41 PM
I think I mentioned this in a thread a while back, but the thing I don't get is why this was a one-way deal. Europeans show up and cough, and 90 million Native Americans start dying. But why didn't the Native Americans cough and kill all of the arriving Europeans?

And presumably no diseases went back to Europe with Columbus and John Smith and Verrazano and all those guys. Why not? Why didn't Europe take the same disease beatdown that the Native Americans took? Was it just sheer luck? Did the Viking expeditions somehow inoculate Europeans? And why didn't the Vikings start the North American plague? Or is it possible that something like the Black Plague was carried from America with the Vikings and nailed the white folk 200 years earlier?

The book Guns, Germs and Steel is really good (Pulitzer-winning good, actually) about explaining this. The short version is that it goes back to the diversity of plant and animal life in Europe/Asia/Africa, due to the shape of the continents; crops that were feasible in India could be transported to China and Turkey and Italy and Spain, and be feasible there as well because they were all at about the same latitude. In America, you didn't have this; a crop feasible in Peru could be transported to Panama or Argentina, but the latitude difference meant it likely wasn't as feasible in those new places. Hence, less diversity.

Diversity in crops meant better farming. Better farming meant fewer farmers were needed to feed a city. Fewer farmers meant more administrators, priests, artisans, and engineers. More of all of them meant more innovation. More innovation led to steel, firearms, ships, sextants, and advanced forms of government. All of that stuff led to the Europeans sending ships to America, rather than vice versa.

Diversity also lead to Europeans/Asians/Africans being exposed to a much, much wider variety of plant-born and animal-spread diseases, and therefore developing natural resistances to them. Native Americans, having a much narrower range of flora and fauna, didn't develop that. As someone else pointed out, these germs ran wild in America once they were introduced, and killed something like 95% of the Natives before the Europeans even landed in force. It was pretty brutal, but also unintentional - the follow-ups, however, were both brutal and very intentional.

It seems to me, though, that the Native Americans were too decentralized. Defeating 90 million Native Americans would be very tough, but I don't think that's the war. I think the war is defeating one tribe and then moving on to the next one. It seems like the eastern tribes would work together, but I don't think the western tribes did much of that at all, and they certainly wouldn't send troops east.

It seems like the Native Americans' best chances would be that the eastern tribes would ally and stop the Europeans at the beaches. If they got past the eastern tribes, I think they'd roll west to the sea like Sherman.
If there were twenty or fifty times as many Natives as there were, I don't see the Plymouth colony surviving King Phillip's War, or the Pequot Uprising. The Iroquois Confederacy would rule for a long time. The best place for a continued European settlement would be Maryland or Virginia, which was mostly inter-tribal swampland.

The Europeans probably would never penetrate past the Appalachians, and if they did, they would never in a million years be able to maintain a supply line across the Great Plains. It would be *teeming* with Natives, and given the expertise the plains tribes developed with horses once they got them, the Europeans would be helpless against the lightning raids.

scott free
11-14-2012, 11:01 PM
A. Check out Chief Wahoo, the mascot of the Cleveland Indians.

http://images.sodahead.com/polls/001634271/235960865_cleveland_indians_logo_answer_7_xlarge.jpeg

Now imagine it as black, Latino, Asian, Jewish, Arabic, or any other nationality in the world. How do you think members of that nationality would react?

Thats all true... if it were some bucktoothed, subserviant looking charlie chan oriental with thick glasses, or a hooknosed jew holding a bag, a cow towing slave, gun toting latinos or arabs etc... it would be blasted and decried in the media throughout the ages.

Agreed on ALL of that, but please dont come after the Chiefs name :D... Together Is Powerful.

Aries Walker
11-15-2012, 06:03 AM
No, I have no more a problem with the Chiefs than I do with the Kings; the Braves is no worse than the Rangers; and the Seminoles and Blackhawks are no more problematic than the Vikings or Celtics. It's one thing to be sensitive to their plight, but it's another to try and pretend that they don't exist, or that they aren't a fundamental part of our nation.

The only ones that I know that cross the line are the Indians mascot and the Redskins name, and they cross waaaaay over it.

WhiteWhale
11-15-2012, 06:07 AM
Love a good sense of humor.


As far as I know there isn't a single German mascot or icon. When you look at just how many krauts there are in this country that's crazy.

I mean "The Fighting Irish?" Really? The Germans helped launch 2 world wars for ****'s sake.

Time to hit the interwebnets...I want a good racist German mascot...

If there was a mascot called the "Fighting Germans" I guarantee you someone would be offended, but it wouldn't be germans...

mdchiefsfan
11-15-2012, 06:19 AM
Well, it could be regional. I was born in Virginia. We moved to Texas the Summer before I started elementary school, I did not go to kindergarten or day care. We moved back to Virginia the Summer before I started Jr. High School. I moved to Colorado during High School. I think that gave me an atypical education and made me more aware of prejudice that might otherwise have gone unnoticed.

Virginia: The Pilgrims created our country with the help of the Founding Fathers. Along the way we showed the Indians how to bathe and act like civilized men. Afterwards, the state of Virginia defeated the British.

Texas: Texas was already here. It's always been here. By the time the Easterners made it out this far we had already killed off all of our Indians and were busy eating cows and killing Spaniards/Mexicans.

Colorado: Well, yeah, what we did to the Indians was pretty ****ed up. But it's not like we're going to stop here and give all of their shit back. We kept some of their stuff around. You can go see it.

Born and raised in Williamsburg. I understood exactly what you were saying.