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Direckshun
11-12-2012, 01:59 PM
A week or two ago, patteeu and I were rehashing (http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=266342) some of the accomplishments and disasters of the Bush administration.

It's been four years since the guy was in office, and seemingly a year or two since I'd had an in-depth conversation about his Presidency.

This was a week or so after I offered my extensive list (http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=266010) of accomplishments of first-term Obama, and I know I'm not exactly the audience Bush was playing to, but if you had to carve out a list of things Bush had done over two terms, it is truly striking exactly how shitty his Presidency was.

Lost the popular vote in his first election. Largest domestic terrorist strike on American soil in American history. Two rounds of huge tax cuts that disproportionately benefited the wealthy that now even Republicans on this board want to see gone for everybody. Medicare Part D, not altogether a bad program but exploded the deficit. The beginning of the longest war in American history in Afghanistan, with an undersized troop presence. The war in Iraq. Yeah. A massive, federal expansion of education policy -- literally called No Child Left Behind. John Roberts (slam dunk), Harriet Miers (****ing disaster town), Samuel Alito (partisan selection). Attempted to privatize social security. Oversaw a complete cratering of our economy built on reckless Wall Street abuse and a home ownership bubble. Dramatically worsened American standing diplomatically, largely due to the Iraq War. Authorized "enhanced interrogation." Appointed Ben Bernanke to the Fed, a move that conservatives now despise. Presided over the cluster**** of Hurricane Katrina. Initiated a domestic wiretapping program that forewent judicial oversight. The Patriot Act in general. Surged American troops and resources (bribes) in Iraq in an attempt to get Iraq under control. Captured Saddam Hussein and facilitated his trial at the hands of the Iraqis. Took our surplus at the turn of the century and turned it into a trillion-dollar deficit. A nobel attempt at immigration reform that was shot down by his own party. Initiated a $700 billion bailout of Wall Street following the catastrophic economic collapse at the end of his administration. Pushed an attempt to ban gay marriage in the Constitution. Vetoed embryonic stem cell research. Provided unprecedented support to Africa to combat AIDS. Created the Department of Homeland Security, a bureaucratic boondoggle that doesn't make us any safer. Openly supported a two-state solution in Israel, but did little to accomplish it. Had a shoe tossed at him.
Obviously not all bad. But a lot of it is ****ing horrendous.

mnchiefsguy
11-12-2012, 02:02 PM
Why do I get the feeling that every Democratic President from now until the end of time eternal is going to blame George Bush for something?

cosmo20002
11-12-2012, 02:04 PM
Why do I get the feeling that every Democratic President from now until the end of time eternal is going to blame George Bush for something?

Because he was just that horrible.

vailpass
11-12-2012, 02:04 PM
The Bush Presidency

Looking better every day for the last 4 years.

Direckshun
11-12-2012, 02:04 PM
Why do I get the feeling that every Democratic President from now until the end of time eternal is going to blame George Bush for something?

What did you think of Bush's Presidency, mnchiefsguy? I want your take.

BigMeatballDave
11-12-2012, 02:07 PM
The federal deficit was just over 5 trillion in 2000.

It's not like Bush started with a clean slate.

Direckshun
11-12-2012, 02:10 PM
The federal debt was just over 5 trillion in 2000.

There was no deficit when Bush took office.

FYP

BigMeatballDave
11-12-2012, 02:12 PM
Deficit grew 6 trillion under Obama.

That is more than during Bush's term.

Direckshun
11-12-2012, 02:13 PM
The national debt grew 6 trillion under Obama.

FYP

You gotta understand the difference, man.

And how that is somehow a defense of the Bush administration... is beyond me.

BigMeatballDave
11-12-2012, 02:13 PM
FYP

http://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/reports/pd/histdebt/histdebt_histo5.htm

J Diddy
11-12-2012, 02:15 PM
Deficit grew 6 trillion under Obama.

That is more than during Bush's term.

I'm confused. You're talking about debt, right?

Direckshun
11-12-2012, 02:15 PM
http://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/reports/pd/histdebt/histdebt_histo5.htm

That is a chart of the debt. Accumulated debt owed by the federal government.

The deficit is something else, Dave. It is our year-to-year balance sheet.

vailpass
11-12-2012, 02:16 PM
What is the difference between the debt and the deficit?

The deficit is the fiscal year difference between what the United States Government (Government) takes in from taxes and other revenues, called receipts, and the amount of money the Government spends, called outlays. The items included in the deficit are considered either on-budget or off-budget.

You can think of the total debt as accumulated deficits plus accumulated off-budget surpluses. The on-budget deficits require the U.S. Treasury to borrow money to raise cash needed to keep the Government operating. We borrow the money by selling securities like Treasury bills, notes, bonds and savings bonds to the public.

The Treasury securities issued to the public and to the Government Trust Funds (Intragovernmental Holdings) then become part of the total debt. For information about the deficit, visit the Financial Management Service web site to view the Monthly Treasury Statement of Receipts and Outlays of the United States Government (MTS).


http://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/resources/faq/faq_publicdebt.htm

CoMoChief
11-12-2012, 02:19 PM
Because he was just that horrible.

No it's because most liberals think like children.

J Diddy
11-12-2012, 02:22 PM
http://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/reports/pd/histdebt/histdebt_histo5.htm


Yeah that doesn't prove your point. It shows a 3.5 trillion growth under obama in 2 years vs. 5 under bush

Although your right that the debt is acquired more under Obama than Bush, here's a better chart showing up to 6-12

http://www.skymachines.com/US-National-Debt-Per-Capita-Percent-of-GDP-and-by-Presidental-Term.htm

J Diddy
11-12-2012, 02:23 PM
No it's because most liberals think like children.

and you are an example of a conservative who acts like one. Quit your crying, take the clown shoes off, and be civil you fucking moron.

HonestChieffan
11-12-2012, 02:26 PM
Fucker cut down the cherry tree in White House lawn that was planted by Mary Todd Lincoln as his first act in the War On Women. Fu george just fu

Chief Faithful
11-12-2012, 02:28 PM
I don't understand how there is a budget deficit when there has not been a budget since Bush.

FishingRod
11-12-2012, 02:28 PM
"Two rounds of huge tax cuts that disproportionately benefited the wealthy that now even Republicans on this board want to see gone for everybody. "


One can’t help but marvel at the chutzpa it takes that after a decade of whining about how the Middle class and poor didn’t get anything out of these cuts now, they are untouchable because they really help the little guy.

J Diddy
11-12-2012, 02:37 PM
I don't understand how there is a budget deficit when there has not been a budget since Bush.

Sure makes it easier.

patteeu
11-12-2012, 03:25 PM
When Bush left office, he left his successor at least four works in progress:

1. The Iraq war had been won, but it was going to take some ongoing effort to foster a Western-friendly, freedom-preserving government.

2. Taming Afghanistan was always a questionable prospect, but thanks to intelligence gains made possible by our work in the region, our interrogation practices, and the initiation of cross-border drone strikes, the noose around Osama bin Laden and senior al Qaeda leaderships' necks was getting tighter.

3. The liberation of the Iraqi people, along with the freedom message preached by the Bush administration made the middle east ripe for the subsequent Arab Spring.

4. Quick action by the Bush administration in the form of TARP prevented a banking meltdown that might have dragged our economy down to Depression depths.

Unfortunately, followup by Barack Obama was seriously deficient. Four chances to benefit the country and the early returns suggest he only scored on one of them.

1. It remains to be seen how Iraq will work out in the long run, but at this point it appears that Barack Obama will have snatched defeat from the jaws of victory. He failed to negotiate of Status of Forces agreement leading to a more precipitous withdrawal than necessary or desirable.

2. Kudos to the Obama administration for knocking off bin Laden and keeping the pressure on al Qaeda in AfPak.

3. The Arab Spring has been seriously mishandled by the Obama administration. He was quick to abandon allies and those who were cooperative and slow to confront enemies. Egypt has been lost to the Islamist group that inspired al Qaeda more than any other. Libya is a basket case and Syria is in flames. Meanwhile, potential revolution in Iran has been put down. War threatens the entire region due to the instability in Syria. It's hard to imagine how things could have gone worse.

4. After Bush averted an economic disaster, Barack Obama failed to build the recovery he promised us. His stimulus prodded the economy along at an anemic rate, partly because shovel-ready jobs on presumably necessary infrastructure turned into temporary government employee protection programs and extensions of unemployment benefits. Four years later, we're still limping along.

One more thing the Bush administration left us with that seems to be bearing fruit now is it's all-of-the-above approach to domestic energy. While Obama has tried multiple approaches to limit carbon-based energy, the Bush policies stimulating development and technological advances have overcome those obstacles and seem to have us headed toward positive energy territory as a net energy exporter over the long term.

BucEyedPea
11-12-2012, 04:20 PM
3. The liberation of the Iraqi people, along with the freedom message preached by the Bush administration made the middle east ripe for the subsequent Arab Spring.




The Sunnis of Iraq don't feel liberated. They don't like the Shi'ite's torturing them.

Bump
11-12-2012, 04:30 PM
A week or two ago, patteeu and I were rehashing (http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=266342) some of the accomplishments and disasters of the Bush administration.

It's been four years since the guy was in office, and seemingly a year or two since I'd had an in-depth conversation about his Presidency.

This was a week or so after I offered my extensive list (http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=266010) of accomplishments of first-term Obama, and I know I'm not exactly the audience Bush was playing to, but if you had to carve out a list of things Bush had done over two terms, it is truly striking exactly how shitty his Presidency was.

Lost the popular vote in his first election. Largest domestic terrorist strike on American soil in American history. Two rounds of huge tax cuts that disproportionately benefited the wealthy that now even Republicans on this board want to see gone for everybody. Medicare Part D, not altogether a bad program but exploded the deficit. The beginning of the longest war in American history in Afghanistan, with an undersized troop presence. The war in Iraq. Yeah. A massive, federal expansion of education policy -- literally called No Child Left Behind. John Roberts (slam dunk), Harriet Miers (****ing disaster town), Samuel Alito (partisan selection). Attempted to privatize social security. Oversaw a complete cratering of our economy built on reckless Wall Street abuse and a home ownership bubble. Dramatically worsened American standing diplomatically, largely due to the Iraq War. Authorized "enhanced interrogation." Appointed Ben Bernanke to the Fed, a move that conservatives now despise. Presided over the cluster**** of Hurricane Katrina. Initiated a domestic wiretapping program that forewent judicial oversight. The Patriot Act in general. Surged American troops and resources (bribes) in Iraq in an attempt to get Iraq under control. Captured Saddam Hussein and facilitated his trial at the hands of the Iraqis. Took our surplus at the turn of the century and turned it into a trillion-dollar deficit. A nobel attempt at immigration reform that was shot down by his own party. Initiated a $700 billion bailout of Wall Street following the catastrophic economic collapse at the end of his administration. Pushed an attempt to ban gay marriage in the Constitution. Vetoed embryonic stem cell research. Provided unprecedented support to Africa to combat AIDS. Created the Department of Homeland Security, a bureaucratic boondoggle that doesn't make us any safer. Openly supported a two-state solution in Israel, but did little to accomplish it. Had a shoe tossed at him.
Obviously not all bad. But a lot of it is ****ing horrendous.

according to a lot of right wingers, he's the greatest American president ever. I don't get it, but I just think they think whichever republican that in office is the greatest ever. They seem to blindly follow, ask no questions and believe everything they say. I guess that's why religion goes hand in hand with the right.

BigMeatballDave
11-12-2012, 04:59 PM
I'm confused. You're talking about debt, right?
Yep. Wrong word.

vailpass
11-12-2012, 05:02 PM
according to a lot of right wingers, he's the greatest American president ever. I don't get it, but I just think they think whichever republican that in office is the greatest ever. They seem to blindly follow, ask no questions and believe everything they say. I guess that's why religion goes hand in hand with the right.

Oh sweet irony.

DaFace
11-12-2012, 05:17 PM
The Bush Presidency

Looking better every day for the last 4 years.

I agree with that, actually. Though I don't think Obama has been near as bad as some like to believe either.

Calcountry
11-12-2012, 05:24 PM
Deficit grew 6 trillion under Obama.

That is more than during Bush's term.Yes, but that was Bush's fault. So was Benghazi, and so was the way Hurricane Sandy was handled.

aturnis
11-12-2012, 05:35 PM
"Two rounds of huge tax cuts that disproportionately benefited the wealthy that now even Republicans on this board want to see gone for everybody. "


One can’t help but marvel at the chutzpa it takes that after a decade of whining about how the Middle class and poor didn’t get anything out of these cuts now, they are untouchable because they really help the little guy.

Ten years now the gubment has had to prove that tax cuts for the rich stimulate the economy. How's that going?

aturnis
11-12-2012, 05:41 PM
Yes, but that was Bush's fault. So was Benghazi, and so was the way Hurricane Sandy was handled.

Thought you right wingers were all for disasters being handled by the states? Isn't that pretty much what's happening?

patteeu
11-12-2012, 05:42 PM
Ten years now the gubment has had to prove that tax cuts for the rich stimulate the economy. How's that going?

The Bush tax cuts were an across-the-board cut, not a cut for the rich.

We could answer your question if we knew what the economic growth rate would be without them.

aturnis
11-12-2012, 05:43 PM
according to a lot of right wingers, he's the greatest American president ever. I don't get it, but I just think they think whichever republican that in office is the greatest ever. They seem to blindly follow, ask no questions and believe everything they say. I guess that's why religion goes hand in hand with the right.

...and I. 4yrs, they'll be swinging from Jebs nuts.How original...

cosmo20002
11-12-2012, 06:36 PM
When Bush left office, he left his successor at least four works in progress:

1. The Iraq war had been won, but it was going to take some ongoing effort to foster a Western-friendly, freedom-preserving government.

2. Taming Afghanistan was always a questionable prospect, but thanks to intelligence gains made possible by our work in the region, our interrogation practices, and the initiation of cross-border drone strikes, the noose around Osama bin Laden and senior al Qaeda leaderships' necks was getting tighter.

3. The liberation of the Iraqi people, along with the freedom message preached by the Bush administration made the middle east ripe for the subsequent Arab Spring.

4. Quick action by the Bush administration in the form of TARP prevented a banking meltdown that might have dragged our economy down to Depression depths.

Unfortunately, followup by Barack Obama was seriously deficient. Four chances to benefit the country and the early returns suggest he only scored on one of them.

1. It remains to be seen how Iraq will work out in the long run, but at this point it appears that Barack Obama will have snatched defeat from the jaws of victory. He failed to negotiate of Status of Forces agreement leading to a more precipitous withdrawal than necessary or desirable.

2. Kudos to the Obama administration for knocking off bin Laden and keeping the pressure on al Qaeda in AfPak.

3. The Arab Spring has been seriously mishandled by the Obama administration. He was quick to abandon allies and those who were cooperative and slow to confront enemies. Egypt has been lost to the Islamist group that inspired al Qaeda more than any other. Libya is a basket case and Syria is in flames. Meanwhile, potential revolution in Iran has been put down. War threatens the entire region due to the instability in Syria. It's hard to imagine how things could have gone worse.

4. After Bush averted an economic disaster, Barack Obama failed to build the recovery he promised us. His stimulus prodded the economy along at an anemic rate, partly because shovel-ready jobs on presumably necessary infrastructure turned into temporary government employee protection programs and extensions of unemployment benefits. Four years later, we're still limping along.

One more thing the Bush administration left us with that seems to be bearing fruit now is it's all-of-the-above approach to domestic energy. While Obama has tried multiple approaches to limit carbon-based energy, the Bush policies stimulating development and technological advances have overcome those obstacles and seem to have us headed toward positive energy territory as a net energy exporter over the long term.

You've become the Dick Morris of this board. Just absurd.

cosmo20002
11-12-2012, 06:47 PM
The Bush tax cuts were an across-the-board cut, not a cut for the rich.

We could answer your question if we knew what the economic growth rate would be without them.

This seems to be an angle you never want to consider. I didn't know it was allowed. So how can you bash Obama's stimulus and other measures if you don't know what the economy / unemployment would have been without them?

patteeu
11-12-2012, 07:51 PM
This seems to be an angle you never want to consider. I didn't know it was allowed. So how can you bash Obama's stimulus and other measures if you don't know what the economy / unemployment would have been without them?

The stimulus failed by the Obama administrations own measures. We were told that unemployment wouldn't go above 8% if we passed the stimulus. Instead, the unemployment rate was over 8% for the better part of 4 years. We were told that unemployment would be under 6% by now, but it's still at 7.9%. There's no question that Obama's stimulus was a failure by it's proponents own measures.

cosmo20002
11-12-2012, 07:56 PM
The stimulus failed by the Obama administrations own measures. We were told that unemployment wouldn't go above 8% if we passed the stimulus. Instead, the unemployment rate was over 8% for the better part of 4 years. We were told that unemployment would be under 6% by now, but it's still at 7.9%. There's no question that Obama's stimulus was a failure by it's proponents own measures.

You were told that by Sean Hannity. Obama NEVER promised this.

And even if this loose prediction from some advisors, based on several factors with many "ifs", didn't happen, that is a seperate issue as to whether or not it helped keep unemployment from reaching even higher than it did.

patteeu
11-12-2012, 08:02 PM
You were told that by Sean Hannity. Obama NEVER promised this.

And even if this loose prediction from some advisors, based on several factors with many "ifs", didn't happen, that is a seperate issue as to whether or not it helped keep unemployment from reaching even higher than it did.

I rarely watch or listen to Hannity so I'm sure that's not the case. No, it was definitely the Obama administration and it's top economic advisers who were selling us that bill of goods.

Ebolapox
11-12-2012, 08:08 PM
at what point does this administration become accountable? jesus fuck--it's pathetic.

cosmo20002
11-12-2012, 08:15 PM
I rarely watch or listen to Hannity so I'm sure that's not the case. No, it was definitely the Obama administration and it's top economic advisers who were selling us that bill of goods.

Yeah, you're ignoring all the relevant details. Obama never said that. It was simply in a report from some advisers, along with a bunch of qualifiers that you ignore. There was no promise or prediction from Obama.

And whether it was successful or not is not limited whether or not it hit the 8% mark. If it kept it from going to 15%, that would be pretty successful, would it not? Of course, we'll never know, so as you said, you can't really judge it without knowing what would have happened without it.

cosmo20002
11-12-2012, 08:16 PM
at what point does this administration become accountable? jesus ****--it's pathetic.

They are accountable for what they have done.

patteeu
11-12-2012, 08:31 PM
Yeah, you're ignoring all the relevant details. Obama never said that. It was simply in a report from some advisers, along with a bunch of qualifiers that you ignore. There was no promise or prediction from Obama.

And whether it was successful or not is not limited whether or not it hit the 8% mark. If it kept it from going to 15%, that would be pretty successful, would it not? Of course, we'll never know, so as you said, you can't really judge it without knowing what would have happened without it.

Obama isn't a King. It doesn't matter that he didn't say it. His top economic advisers said it on his behalf. You can't simply dismiss that as irrelevant. His administration set the measure and the stimulus failed to live up to it. It wasn't even close. Massive fail.

J Diddy
11-12-2012, 09:07 PM
Obama isn't a King. It doesn't matter that he didn't say it. His top economic advisers said it on his behalf. You can't simply dismiss that as irrelevant. His administration set the measure and the stimulus failed to live up to it. It wasn't even close. Massive fail.

Lol, that's a mighty big double standard you got there. How about we pin the shit on him that's his fault.