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View Full Version : Int'l Issues November 29: The UN will vote to recognize Palestine as a "state."


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Direckshun
11-19-2012, 09:09 PM
You are pretty amusing yourself Direckshun. The fact that you cannot tell the difference between collateral damage and intentionally targeting women and children is very telling.

Israel is not perfect, but they are on the right side of this conflict.

You can be a Muslin and live peacefully in Israel. Can you be a Jew and survive Gaza?

You haven't answered me yet:

Two-state solution, '67 borders with land swaps, demilitarized Palestine.

Deal?

Direckshun
11-19-2012, 09:11 PM
I have been on this site for a while just reading threads and posts by other people. I am a huge chiefs fan that lives in Israel. I served in the Israeli army for 3 years as a tank driver and a medic.
It makes me sad to see how people really can't see the truth in the Israeli Palestinian situation. The Israeli citizens in the south are constantly living in fear because of all the rockets that Hamas has been shooting at their homes, schools, places of work, public parks.

Believe me Israel would love nothing more than live in peace with the Palestinians. I was in the previous operation in gaze in 2009 and am waiting to get the call for reserves any day now.

Unlike Hamas we don't use our woman and children as human shields. We are defending our country just like any other country would in our situation.

God bless -- I didn't know we had an Israeli Planeteer! Welcome aboard.

No people should have to live in fear. Both sides should take extraordinary measures to achieve that, and deserve condemnation if they don't.

Be safe.

mnchiefsguy
11-19-2012, 09:12 PM
You haven't answered me yet:

Two-state solution, '67 borders with land swaps, demilitarized Palestine.

Deal?

How do you plan to demilitarize Palestine? I can easily see the deal going through, and then the new Palestine government saying, "We can't control what the factions do, we have no control over them." What penalties does the new Palestine state pay if rockets continue to be lobbed into Israel by the radicals?

patteeu
11-19-2012, 09:12 PM
The land swaps aren't a big deal in negotiations. They've been agreed to a couple times even though a deal's never been hammered out. The big deal is the two-state solution and demilitarized Palestinian people.

I'm telling you right now, pat, as a pretend-representative of the Palestinian people: I take the deal.

Do you take the deal?

The land swaps haven't ever been worked out and you're delusional if you think the palestinians would accept and live peacefully. My answer would be yes, depending on whether the land swaps could be worked out to insure Israel's security.

stevieray
11-19-2012, 09:15 PM
'67 borders with land swaps,


You want Jerusalem...

Direckshun
11-19-2012, 09:17 PM
Not to mention the fact that collateral damage is what it is not because of carelessness or indifference on the part of the Israelis but because Hamas intentionally uses civilians as shields in a conscious effort to increase such damage.

I didn't say the two situations were equivalent.

I'm just saying things are not as simple as one's prejudice might suggest them to be.

Direckshun
11-19-2012, 09:21 PM
We apologize for the Direckshuns among us. Good luck to you and all the other peace seekers in the area and may you and yours remain safe.

While I join you in hoping for his safety, it's pretty offensive to suggest my stances need to be apologized for.

Even some of the most pro-Israel, anti-Palestine folks on this forum who go dozens of rounds on this issue with me, like Donger, would agree that I do not apologize for Hamas or mince words when I discuss them. The source of my concern is with innocent Palestinian civilians who take the worst casualties in these conflicts and the ultimate, fair division of Israel into two states that respect history and culture.

I don't wish harm on anybody, and I want Israelis to live their lives free of the terror of wackjobs. I just believe Palestinians deserve the same well wishing.

To suggest that's a stance that needs anything other than full-throated support is just a backwards way of looking at the world.

patteeu
11-19-2012, 09:30 PM
While I join you in hoping for his safety, it's pretty offensive to suggest my stances need to be apologized for.

Even some of the most pro-Israel, anti-Palestine folks on this forum who go dozens of rounds on this issue with me, like Donger, would agree that I do not apologize for Hamas or mince words when I discuss them. The source of my concern is with innocent Palestinian civilians who take the worst casualties in these conflicts and the ultimate, fair division of Israel into two states that respect history and culture.

I don't wish harm on anybody, and I want Israelis to live their lives free of the terror of wackjobs. I just believe Palestinians deserve the same well wishing.

To suggest that's a stance that needs anything other than full-throated support is just a backwards way of looking at the world.

You blame the wrong people for the plight of innocent palestinians. You should be blaming the militants and radicals among them and the Arab states of the region who would rather use them instead of help them a achieve a lasting peace. Instead, you blame Israel.

Direckshun
11-19-2012, 09:31 PM
Because American Jews watch the same news that you do, and don't get the full truth. I have seen many anerican Jews who have never been to Israel not take Israel's side, then they come on a visit for the first time and see the truth.

It's pretty clear you watch zippo CNN.

If you did, you'd know they have five pro-Israeli commentators on for any commentator who's remotely close to pro-Palestinian.

You'd also know they have a four-hour show in the middle of the day hosted by Wolf Blitzer, who's about as pro-Israeli as you can get.

Direckshun
11-19-2012, 09:35 PM
Why would they? Hamas is hugely popular with the rank and file right?

Hamas is popular because the general feeling in Palestine is that a two-state solution is not possible.

If it became possible, Hamas has to evolve, or suffer electoral consequences.

Direckshun
11-19-2012, 09:37 PM
How do you plan to demilitarize Palestine? I can easily see the deal going through, and then the new Palestine government saying, "We can't control what the factions do, we have no control over them." What penalties does the new Palestine state pay if rockets continue to be lobbed into Israel by the radicals?

Nevermind.

Direckshun
11-19-2012, 09:38 PM
My answer would be yes, depending on whether the land swaps could be worked out to insure Israel's security.

Awesome. So why won't the Likud come to this conclusion.

Direckshun
11-19-2012, 09:38 PM
You blame the wrong people for the plight of innocent palestinians. You should be blaming the militants and radicals among them and the Arab states of the region who would rather use them instead of help them a achieve a lasting peace. Instead, you blame Israel.

Trust me, there's plenty of blame to go around.

patteeu
11-19-2012, 09:40 PM
Direckshun, I'm sorry I hurt your feelings with my earlier post but I honestly believe you are so pro-palestinian that you're unfairly anti-Israeli. I think you're a good guy anyway. I don't know whether you're naive or whether you emigrated from the West Bank or what, but despite your admirable rejection of Hamas violence, you don't seem willing to hold the right people responsible for the failure to achieve a lasting peace.

patteeu
11-19-2012, 09:45 PM
Awesome. So why won't the Likud come to this conclusion.

Because unlike Charlie Brown, they aren't willing to keep letting Lucy hold the football for the kick. They've seen the palestinians reject a generous two-state solution before and respond with violence. They know they can't trust the palestinians as long as they're willing to be led by the likes of Hamas. Until the palestinians show good faith, there's really very little to talk about.

Direckshun
11-19-2012, 09:53 PM
Direckshun, I'm sorry I hurt your feelings with my earlier post but I honestly believe you are so pro-palestinian that you're unfairly anti-Israeli. I think you're a good guy anyway. I don't know whether you're naive or whether you emigrated from the West Bank or what, but despite your admirable rejection of Hamas violence, you don't seem willing to hold the right people responsible for the failure to achieve a lasting peace.

It's a sticky, thorny issue that people get unnecessarily emotional about.

I get it. Israel is so culturally significant to this country, and Palestine is so prominent in a culture that seems to fundamentally reject our culture. The natural inclination for us Americans is to auto-halo Israel, and auto-devil-horn Palestine. That's natural. Add into that the Likud's super-tight bond with the American conservative movement, and it's not hard to see how the board interprets the events in Israel the way it does.

It's understandable. But that doesn't make it correct. So I take pains to express the nuance here: that Israel is not blameless, that the Palestinians are not blameless. That Hamas has nobody's best interests in mind but their own, as they have no problem killing Palestinians to further their interests. That the Likud wants, above all, a Greater Israel. That the Israelis are scared for their safety and the Palestinians are scared for their culture.

This is an escalation that happens when both sides play to the worst of their bases. And it's leading the Middle East on an irreversible path of deadly solutions instead of smart solutions.

And it leads to threads like these.

Thanks for the kinds words.

mnchiefsguy
11-19-2012, 09:54 PM
You blame the wrong people for the plight of innocent palestinians. You should be blaming the militants and radicals among them and the Arab states of the region who would rather use them instead of help them a achieve a lasting peace. Instead, you blame Israel.

There is much truth in this post.

Direckshun
11-19-2012, 09:55 PM
Because unlike Charlie Brown, they aren't willing to keep letting Lucy hold the football for the kick. They've seen the palestinians reject a generous two-state solution before and respond with violence. They know they can't trust the palestinians as long as they're willing to be led by the likes of Hamas. Until the palestinians show good faith, there's really very little to talk about.

What would good faith look like to you?

mnchiefsguy
11-19-2012, 09:56 PM
It's a sticky, thorny issue that people get unnecessarily emotional about.

I get it. Israel is so culturally significant to this country, and Palestine is so prominent in a culture that seems to fundamentally reject our culture. The natural inclination for us Americans is to auto-halo Israel, and auto-devil-horn Palestine. That's natural. Add into that the Likud's super-tight bond with the American conservative movement, and it's not hard to see how the board interprets the events in Israel the way it does.

It's understandable. But that doesn't make it correct. So I take pains to express the nuance here: that Israel is not blameless, that the Palestinians are not blameless. That Hamas has nobody's best interests in mind but their own, as they have no problem killing Palestinians to further their interests. That the Likud wants, above all, a Greater Israel. That the Israelis are scared for their safety and the Palestinians are scared for their culture.

This is an escalation that happens when both sides play to the worst of their bases. And it's leading the Middle East on an irreversible path of deadly solutions instead of smart solutions.

And it leads to threads like these.

Thanks for the kinds words.

I think the problem is that you place equal blame on Israel and Hamas, when in reality the blame is much more balanced to the side of Hamas.

mnchiefsguy
11-19-2012, 09:57 PM
What would good faith look like to you?

They could stop lobbing rockets into Israel for starters...that has been going on almost non stop for how long now?

patteeu
11-19-2012, 09:58 PM
It's a sticky, thorny issue that people get unnecessarily emotional about.

I get it. Israel is so culturally significant to this country, and Palestine is so prominent in a culture that seems to fundamentally reject our culture. The natural inclination for us Americans is to auto-halo Israel, and auto-devil-horn Palestine. That's natural. Add into that the Likud's super-tight bond with the American conservative movement, and it's not hard to see how the board interprets the events in Israel the way it does.

It's understandable. But that doesn't make it correct. So I take pains to express the nuance here: that Israel is not blameless, that the Palestinians are not blameless. That Hamas has nobody's best interests in mind but their own, as they have no problem killing Palestinians to further their interests. That the Likud wants, above all, a Greater Israel. That the Israelis are scared for their safety and the Palestinians are scared for their culture.

This is an escalation that happens when both sides play to the worst of their bases. And it's leading the Middle East on an irreversible path of deadly solutions instead of smart solutions.

And it leads to threads like these.

Thanks for the kinds words.

Why do you think Likud wants a Greater Israel? Why haven't they annexed the territories? Why did Sharon leave Gaza?

patteeu
11-19-2012, 10:02 PM
What would good faith look like to you?

It would have looked like Fatah accepting the help of Israel and the West to crack down on militants in the West Bank and Gaza. It would look like the palestinian population not voting for Hamas over Fatah. It would look like an end to rocket attacks and other violence.

stevieray
11-19-2012, 10:14 PM
Arab states of the region who would rather use them instead of help them
there never has been and never will be "help" other than thousands of rockets...

..it's never been about helping ""them".....Amno nailed it on the first page.

it's not a coinkydink that this liitle parcel of land COMPLETELY surrounded by Islam is portrayed as a victim by Defleckshun...it's just self-aggrandizing propaganda.

Direckshun
11-19-2012, 11:42 PM
I think the problem is that you place equal blame on Israel and Hamas, when in reality the blame is much more balanced to the side of Hamas.

I don't know if that's true. I have no idea how you even measure the volume of blame.

There's plenty of blame to go around. Whoever has more is not important to me, as they both have tons.

Direckshun
11-19-2012, 11:44 PM
They could stop lobbing rockets into Israel for starters...that has been going on almost non stop for how long now?

They've done that before. They'll probably do it again once a truce is negotiated in Egypt.

Hell, if that's all it takes...

Direckshun
11-19-2012, 11:47 PM
Why do you think Likud wants a Greater Israel?

Because more land is awesome.

Why haven't they annexed the territories? Why did Sharon leave Gaza?

They're annexing territories now through settlements. Eventually they will swallow all of Palestine.

Israel doesn't have the political capital, globally, to overtake all of Palestine right now. The only thing holding back Israel's ambition is the complete dearth of international backing for it.

Direckshun
11-19-2012, 11:48 PM
It would have looked like Fatah accepting the help of Israel and the West to crack down on militants in the West Bank and Gaza. It would look like the palestinian population not voting for Hamas over Fatah. It would look like an end to rocket attacks and other violence.

Of all of these things, the only thing that's possible is the last item on your list, since that's the only one that doesn't require time travel.

Hamas will likely clamp down on its militant factions following whatever truce both sides strike in Cairo.

Direckshun
11-20-2012, 12:21 AM
I'd just like to take a moment to say that Gaza is an area that is somewhat shut off from the world through an Israeli blockade. It's not open. You have 1.5 million people living in pretty crunched room, suffering widespread malnutritian, and despite the wealth of a select few, almost everybody is in poverty and relies on humanitarian aid for survival.

The Palestinian people voted in Hamas democratically, largely at the time because Hamas provided them by far the most humanitarian aid domestically. But Israel then did it's best United States impression: once you give some brown people you've occupied the right to vote, those people will usually vote in folks who hate you -- surprise! So Israel puts up a blockade to exert its disapproval upon the Palestinian people. This incites an understandable feeling of hopelessness and utter fear in Palestinians, which futher entrenches groups like Hamas who have absolutely no shame in exacerbating fear to keep themselves in power, even if it means sacrificing the lives of lowly foot soldiers or civilians.

That's the basic law of humanity -- if you close people up, make them feel hopeless, then they will gravitate towards extreme solutions which generally take the form of assholes like Hamas.

Now, Hamas can be dealt with. They are run by highly intelligent people with Ph.Ds in stuff like economics. They've negotiated ceasefires and often held up their end of the deal, though they sometimes can't control a few of their militant factions. And these were the people Palestinians declared represented them.

If there is to be hope, you must deal with Hamas. Do your best. Take the Obama route, if you must, and offer compromised, fair deals, partially built on ideas your opponents have offered. When your opponent refuses over and over again to take them, they will get slaughtered in elections and replaced by people that will, empowering your position further.

go bowe
11-20-2012, 12:25 AM
Because more land is awesome.



They're annexing territories now through settlements. Eventually they will swallow all of Palestine.

Israel doesn't have the political capital, globally, to overtake all of Palestine right now. The only thing holding back Israel's ambition is the complete dearth of international backing for it.

that's why settlement expansion is such a big deal to the palestinians...

that's the reason there are no negotiations taking place...

go bowe
11-20-2012, 12:30 AM
I'd just like to take a moment to say that Gaza is an area that is somewhat shut off from the world through an Israeli blockade. It's not open. You have 1.5 million people living in pretty crunched room, suffering widespread malnutritian, and despite the wealth of a select few, almost everybody is in poverty and relies on humanitarian aid for survival.

The Palestinian people voted in Hamas democratically, largely at the time because Hamas provided them by far the most humanitarian aid domestically. But Israel then did it's best United States impression: once you give some brown people you've occupied the right to vote, those people will usually vote in folks who hate you -- surprise! So Israel puts up a blockade to exert its disapproval upon the Palestinian people. This incites an understandable feeling of hopelessness and utter fear in Palestinians, which futher entrenches groups like Hamas who have absolutely no shame in exacerbating fear to keep themselves in power, even if it means sacrificing the lives of lowly foot soldiers or civilians.

That's the basic law of humanity -- if you close people up, make them feel hopeless, then they will gravitate towards extreme solutions which generally take the form of assholes like Hamas.

Now, Hamas can be dealt with. They are run by highly intelligent people with Ph.Ds in stuff like economics. They've negotiated ceasefires and often held up their end of the deal, though they sometimes can't control a few of their militant factions. And these were the people Palestinians declared represented them.

If there is to be hope, you must deal with Hamas. Do your best. Take the Obama route, if you must, and offer compromised, fair deals, partially built on ideas your opponents have offered. When your opponent refuses over and over again to take them, they will get slaughtered in elections and replaced by people that will, empowering your position further.

i hadn't thought of defeating hamas in this way, it sounds like a really good idea though...

of course it has zero chance of happening as long as likud is in power...

still, it seems liike the best approach to getting rid of hamas that i've ever heard of...

mnchiefsguy
11-20-2012, 01:23 AM
I'd just like to take a moment to say that Gaza is an area that is somewhat shut off from the world through an Israeli blockade. It's not open. You have 1.5 million people living in pretty crunched room, suffering widespread malnutritian, and despite the wealth of a select few, almost everybody is in poverty and relies on humanitarian aid for survival.

The Palestinian people voted in Hamas democratically, largely at the time because Hamas provided them by far the most humanitarian aid domestically. But Israel then did it's best United States impression: once you give some brown people you've occupied the right to vote, those people will usually vote in folks who hate you -- surprise! So Israel puts up a blockade to exert its disapproval upon the Palestinian people. This incites an understandable feeling of hopelessness and utter fear in Palestinians, which futher entrenches groups like Hamas who have absolutely no shame in exacerbating fear to keep themselves in power, even if it means sacrificing the lives of lowly foot soldiers or civilians.

That's the basic law of humanity -- if you close people up, make them feel hopeless, then they will gravitate towards extreme solutions which generally take the form of assholes like Hamas.

Now, Hamas can be dealt with. They are run by highly intelligent people with Ph.Ds in stuff like economics. They've negotiated ceasefires and often held up their end of the deal, though they sometimes can't control a few of their militant factions. And these were the people Palestinians declared represented them.

If there is to be hope, you must deal with Hamas. Do your best. Take the Obama route, if you must, and offer compromised, fair deals, partially built on ideas your opponents have offered. When your opponent refuses over and over again to take them, they will get slaughtered in elections and replaced by people that will, empowering your position further.

Hamas does not even try to control their militant factions. They shrug their shoulders and claim they have no control. If Hamas truly wanted to control these factions, they could, but they intentionally turn a blind eye to it.

You want to know why people think you are such a Hamas supporter? Posts like this, where you try to make Hamas look like a reasonable centrist group that has the best interest of its people at heart, instead of telling the truth, which is that Hamas has no interest in being reasonable, and they have no love for their fellow Palestinians, considering how easily they use them as human shields.

mnchiefsguy
11-20-2012, 01:25 AM
i hadn't thought of defeating hamas in this way, it sounds like a really good idea though...

of course it has zero chance of happening as long as likud is in power...

still, it seems liike the best approach to getting rid of hamas that i've ever heard of...

Except that the opponent has refused peace over and over again, and I doubt Hamas will be losing any elections anytime soon.

If the Palestinian people want peace, they need to start showing it at the ballot box.

Direckshun
11-20-2012, 03:34 AM
You want to know why people think you are such a Hamas supporter? Posts like this, where you try to make Hamas look like a reasonable centrist group that has the best interest of its people at heart, instead of telling the truth, which is that Hamas has no interest in being reasonable, and they have no love for their fellow Palestinians, considering how easily they use them as human shields.

Hamas has nobody's best interests in mind but their own, as they have no problem killing Palestinians to further their interests.

Honestly, mnchiefsguy, if you're not even going to read my posts, I'm having trouble even mustering up the strength to reply.

Screw your head back on.

go bowe
11-20-2012, 06:02 AM
Except that the opponent has refused peace over and over again, and I doubt Hamas will be losing any elections anytime soon.

If the Palestinian people want peace, they need to start showing it at the ballot box.

what is being suggested is a way to win at the ballot box and displace hamas...

if they refuse reasonable concrete offers to settle the dispute over and over again and continue to rely on armed "resistance", the citizens of gaza will vote them out soon enough...

we haven't seen hamas "refuse peace" that was reasonable and allowed the creation of a palestinian state with control over it's own resources and resolved issues like sharing jerusalem and freezing further israeli settlements on the west bank...

to refuse such a deal would cause hamas to lose the support of the ordinary gazan pretty quickly...

contrary to popular belief, most palestinians want to live in peace in a free state, without israeli occupation and without ruthless extremists running their lives...

if israel offers such a deal, it could lead to hamas losing power, which is what everybody except hamas wants, isn't it?

Direckshun
11-20-2012, 07:32 AM
if israel offers such a deal, it could lead to hamas losing power, which is what everybody except hamas wants, isn't it?

One hopes.

The Likud is primarily the province of Greater Israel philosophy, however.

I do believe they can be moved from that position, as I believe Hamas can as well.

Direckshun
11-20-2012, 07:34 AM
Update to the thread: Israel has agreed to temporarily suspend a ground invasion.

Hillary Clinton is on her way to Tel Aviv. Morsi and the Egyptian mediation has scored a minor, tentative victory.

Sometimes, if you can put a pin back in the grenade for a day, reason can find a way.

Direckshun
11-20-2012, 07:58 AM
Andrew Sullivan (http://andrewsullivan.thedailybeast.com/2012/11/the-politics-of-dead-children.html):

With each of these incursions, Israel is even further embittering and alienating the next generation of Arabs, a generation that will likely determine the future of an increasingly democratic and populist Middle East. As time goes by, technology will also steadily increase the chances of conflict reaching within 1967-lines Israel itself. As Hamas's and Hezbollah's rockets gain greater range and accuracy, Israel's relentless colonization of Palestinian land on the West Bank will encourage them further.

In other words, without diplomacy toward a two-state solution, we are looking at a lifetime of constant Israeli warfare against all of its neighbors, deeper isolation in the region (with Turkey and Egypt already fast moving away) and growing international pariah status as Greater Israel becomes more fundamentalist and less democratic. And at some point, as America's energy revolution leaves us less and less exposed to Middle East oil, and as the national interest becomes more attuned to events in Asia and the Pacific, and as the occupation turns Israel into the South Africa of the 21st Century, the Jewish state will become a self-evident burden for America, spawning terror and conflict and anti-Americanism as far as the eye can see. If all Israel can count on then are America's Christianists and the current GOP, if they continue to spurn American attempts to unwind the conflict by undoing the settlements, then Israelis should be genuinely afraid for their future. I sure am.

mlyonsd
11-20-2012, 08:17 AM
Once again, Israel acts like the adults.

stevieray
11-20-2012, 08:52 AM
I give defleckshun a hard time on this issue, but it's only fair to say that his "wish" will come true..on both counts.

why? prophecy in the Bible...it was prophecied that Israel would be scattered among the nations, brought back to their homeland, and the Hebrew language maintained during exile and restored in the land of Israel....it was also prophecied that the land would be a barren desert and would once again blossom when the Jews came home.

It's also been prophecied that a false peace would be achieved, and the Jews, for the first time in almost 2000 years, would be able to rebuild their temple and resume sacrifices..that rebuilding is set in place and ready to go..

Prophecy states that Israel would be a trembling cup to ALL nations, including the US...Now that might come about from an act perpetrated by Israel, or the fact that we've been neutered, either economically or militarily. the fact is, we're a non player.... we'll see an Islamic ten nation alliance put in place to go after the Jews.....and three and a half years later, shit will hit the fan.

Be patient young one, it's gonna happen.

ForeverChiefs58
11-20-2012, 08:53 AM
I guess defleckshun just doesn't hear when the palestinians speak. They have NEVER, EVER sought peace. When they are all demonstrating and chanting "Death to Israel", "Death" does not stand for negotiate or seek peace. This is not a bluff, or just joking. The palistinians will always want war and death. Both the PLO and Hamas charter call for violence, death and hate.

Untill the people stand up and demand better, you'll look like a damn fool trying to spread blame around to both sides.

Do you know how much Israel does and gives in aid to help the palestinians?

Do you know how much the palestinians do or give?

Do you get why there is a blockaide?

Are you so pissed at Jordan or Egypt then? You realize they both have blockaids to the palestinians too right? Even with Morsi and their offshoot, the Muslim Brotherhood you realize they still have an Egyptian blockaid also in place that they maintain?

Because anyone with a brain isn't going to just lift the blockaid opening a flood gate to a terrorist group, knowing full well they will use it to bring in bigger weapons just to fire at more innocent citizens, to achieve their only real goal which is to kill more jews. Hey, you don't have to believe me, but just believe them when they say it.

You are a smart guy, with really great draft and football takes, but do you think you know what Israel or the palestinian territory is like sitting in Springfield Mo?

ForeverChiefs58
11-20-2012, 09:05 AM
Say the blockaid was lifted, do think the people would be better?

They wouldn't because the terrorists that were elected, and the people that put them in power only want to continue their terrorist behavior not seek peace. Which would then result in the deaths of many more.

Would you also try and negotiate with Al qaeda and work with them too?

BucEyedPea
11-20-2012, 09:11 AM
http://www.breakingthesilence.org.il/

ForeverChiefs58
11-20-2012, 09:31 AM
Such peace seekers

Senior Hamas military chief urges continued battle


GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip (AP) — A man identified as the most elusive top military commander of Hamas is urging the group's fighters to keep up attacks on Israel.

Mohammed Deif, seriously wounded in an Israeli airstrike in 2003, says Hamas "must invest all resources to uproot this aggressor from our land," a reference to Israel.
He was speaking from hiding on Hamas-run TV and radio.

Deif is one of the founders of the Hamas military wing and was its top commander until he was wounded in 2003. He was replaced as by Ahmed Jabari, who was assassinated by Israel last week in the opening salvo of its latest Gaza offensive.

The speaker on TV and radio was introduced as Deif, and a Gaza reporter said the speaker sounded like Deif.


http://news.yahoo.com/senior-hamas-military-chief-urges-continued-battle-121743076.html

Donger
11-20-2012, 10:00 AM
I'm pretty sure if that option was available today, Palestinians would pretty much force Hamas to agree with it or see themselves get voted out in droves.

You'd take that deal though, right? I haven't got an answer from you, yet.

Pretty sure, eh?

No, no deal.

ForeverChiefs58
11-20-2012, 10:12 AM
Would be some serious karma if their rockets hit their own holy sites. This is how bad they want peace


Palestinian rocket targets Jerusalem for 2nd time


JERUSALEM (AP) A Palestinian rocket struck the outskirts of Jerusalem on Tuesday, landing harmlessly in an open area in one of the longest rocket strikes fired from the Gaza Strip in nearly a week of fighting.

The rocket attack, the second aimed at the holy city since an Israeli offensive began a week ago, set off air raid sirens throughout the metropolis. A distant explosion could be heard in the city's downtown. Jerusalem residents ran for cover as buses and trains stopped to let passengers off.

Police spokesman Micky Rosenfeld said the rocket landed in Gush Etzion, a collection of Jewish West Bank settlements southeast of the city. Last Friday's attempt to hit Jerusalem landed in the same area. No one was wounded in either attack.

Jerusalem, nearly 80 kilometers (50 miles) from Gaza, is the most distant city the militants have targeted, signaling an increasing sophistication in their arsenal.

Tuesday's rocket attack occurred as diplomats were trying to work out a cease-fire. Israeli officials estimate that Gaza's Hamas rulers will try to stage similar attacks ahead of any truce taking hold.

The attacks aimed at Jerusalem and the Tel Aviv area have dramatically showcased the militants' new capabilities, including a locally made M-75 rocket that appears to have taken Israeli defense officials by surprise.

Both areas had remained outside the gunmen's reach in past rounds of fighting, and their use dramatically escalated the hostilities. For more than a decade, the militants' range had been limited to steadily broadening sections of southern Israel.

The attack on Jerusalem was especially audacious, both for its symbolism and its distance from Gaza. Jerusalem had previously been considered beyond the range of Gaza rockets and an unlikely target because it is home to the Al-Aqsa Mosque compound, Islam's third-holiest shrine.

http://news.yahoo.com/palestinian-rocket-targets-jerusalem-2nd-time-125135437.html

patteeu
11-20-2012, 11:16 AM
Of all of these things, the only thing that's possible is the last item on your list, since that's the only one that doesn't require time travel.

Hamas will likely clamp down on its militant factions following whatever truce both sides strike in Cairo.

It doesn't require time travel for palestinians to unite under leadership that would oust Hamas, defang militants and make a real peace with Israel. It won't happen because there aren't enough palestinians who want that. Whether that's because they've been misled to believe that Israel is evil or because they are evil themselves doesn't really matter.

Even if Hamas clamps down on it's militant factions in the short term, it will just be a strategic lull in order to improve their position wrt Israel for the next conflict. That's not good faith. It's pretty much the opposite of good faith.

patteeu
11-20-2012, 11:19 AM
I'd just like to take a moment to say that Gaza is an area that is somewhat shut off from the world through an Israeli blockade. It's not open. You have 1.5 million people living in pretty crunched room, suffering widespread malnutritian, and despite the wealth of a select few, almost everybody is in poverty and relies on humanitarian aid for survival.

The Palestinian people voted in Hamas democratically, largely at the time because Hamas provided them by far the most humanitarian aid domestically. But Israel then did it's best United States impression: once you give some brown people you've occupied the right to vote, those people will usually vote in folks who hate you -- surprise! So Israel puts up a blockade to exert its disapproval upon the Palestinian people. This incites an understandable feeling of hopelessness and utter fear in Palestinians, which futher entrenches groups like Hamas who have absolutely no shame in exacerbating fear to keep themselves in power, even if it means sacrificing the lives of lowly foot soldiers or civilians.

That's the basic law of humanity -- if you close people up, make them feel hopeless, then they will gravitate towards extreme solutions which generally take the form of assholes like Hamas.

Now, Hamas can be dealt with. They are run by highly intelligent people with Ph.Ds in stuff like economics. They've negotiated ceasefires and often held up their end of the deal, though they sometimes can't control a few of their militant factions. And these were the people Palestinians declared represented them.

If there is to be hope, you must deal with Hamas. Do your best. Take the Obama route, if you must, and offer compromised, fair deals, partially built on ideas your opponents have offered. When your opponent refuses over and over again to take them, they will get slaughtered in elections and replaced by people that will, empowering your position further.

Why would Hamas go along with this pipe dream? Why wouldn't they create another conflict to make sure that the Gaza palestinians continue to need their protection? Is Israel then supposed to bend over and take it no matter how many Israelis die to avoid playing into Hamas' hands? This is an unworkable plan as long as there isn't a glimmer of hope that Hamas might be willing to choose peace and based on your posts in this thread you seem to concede that that glimmer doesn't exist.

patteeu
11-20-2012, 11:22 AM
what is being suggested is a way to win at the ballot box and displace hamas...

if they refuse reasonable concrete offers to settle the dispute over and over again and continue to rely on armed "resistance", the citizens of gaza will vote them out soon enough...

we haven't seen hamas "refuse peace" that was reasonable and allowed the creation of a palestinian state with control over it's own resources and resolved issues like sharing jerusalem and freezing further israeli settlements on the west bank...

to refuse such a deal would cause hamas to lose the support of the ordinary gazan pretty quickly...

contrary to popular belief, most palestinians want to live in peace in a free state, without israeli occupation and without ruthless extremists running their lives...

if israel offers such a deal, it could lead to hamas losing power, which is what everybody except hamas wants, isn't it?

This is nonsense, IMO. It didn't work to turn the palestinian people against Arafat's PLO (instead he rallied the 2nd intifada against Israel) so why should it work to turn them against Hamas?

ForeverChiefs58
11-20-2012, 01:22 PM
Nothing says your ready for peace more than ignoring efforts and constant rocket fire and some peace loving public executions.

Hamas militants publicly kill 6 suspected informers for Israel at Gaza City intersection

Masked gunmen publicly shot dead six suspected collaborators with Israel in a large Gaza City intersection Tuesday, witnesses said. An Associated Press reporter saw a large mob surrounding five of the bloodied corpses shortly after the killing.

Some in the crowd stomped and spit on the bodies. A sixth corpse was tied to a motorcycle and dragged through the streets as people screamed, "Spy! Spy!"

The Hamas military wing, Izzedine al-Qassam, claimed responsibility in a large handwritten note attached to a nearby electricity pole. Hamas said the six were killed because they gave Israel information about fighters and rocket launching sites.

The killing came on the seventh day of an Israeli military offensive that has killed more than 120 Palestinians, both militants and civilians. Israel has launched hundreds of airstrikes, targeting rocket launching sites, weapons caches and homes of Hamas activists, as Palestinians fired hundreds of rockets at Israel.

Israel relies on a network of local informers to identify its targets in Gaza.

The six were killed on Tuesday afternoon in Gaza City's Sheik Radwan neighbourhood.

Witnesses said a van stopped in the intersection, and four masked men pushed the six suspected informers out of the vehicle. Salim Mahmoud, 18, said the gunmen ordered the six to lie face down in the street and then shot them dead. Another witness, 13-year-old Mokhmen al-Gazhali, said the informers were killed one by one, as he mimicked the sound of gunfire.

They said only a few people were in the street at first — most Gazans have been staying indoors because of the Israeli airstrikes — but the crowd quickly grew after the killings. Eventually several hundred men pushed and shoved to get a close look at the bodies, lying in a jumble on the ground. One man spit at the corpses, another kicked the head of one of the dead men.

"They should have been killed in a more brutal fashion so others don't even think about working with the occupation (Israel)," said one of the bystanders, 24-year-old Ashraf Maher.

One body was then tied by a cable to the back of a motorcycle and dragged through the streets. A number of gunmen on motorcycles rode along as the body was pulled past a house of mourning for victims of an Israeli airstrike.

There is broad consensus among Palestinians that informers for Israel deserve harsh punishment, and it is rare to hear someone speak out against killings of alleged collaborators. Such public killings been carried out in the West Bank and Gaza since the first uprising against Israeli occupation in the late 1980s.

In Israel's last major Gaza offensive four years ago, 17 suspected collaborators who fled after their prisons were hit in airstrikes were later shot dead in extra-judicial killings.

During the current offensive, Tuesday's killings brought to eight the number of suspected informers being shot dead in public. On Friday, the body of one alleged informer was found in a garbage bin, and another was shot dead in the street. Hamas claimed responsibility for both killings.

Since seizing Gaza in 2007, Hamas has executed four informers by firing squad, and about a dozen more are on death row in Gaza.

http://news.yahoo.com/hamas-militants-publicly-kill-6-suspected-informers-israel-170253367.html

mlyonsd
11-20-2012, 01:44 PM
Nothing says your ready for peace more than ignoring efforts and constant rocket fire and some peace loving public executions.

Hamas militants publicly kill 6 suspected informers for Israel at Gaza City intersection

Masked gunmen publicly shot dead six suspected collaborators with Israel in a large Gaza City intersection Tuesday, witnesses said. An Associated Press reporter saw a large mob surrounding five of the bloodied corpses shortly after the killing.

Some in the crowd stomped and spit on the bodies. A sixth corpse was tied to a motorcycle and dragged through the streets as people screamed, "Spy! Spy!"

The Hamas military wing, Izzedine al-Qassam, claimed responsibility in a large handwritten note attached to a nearby electricity pole. Hamas said the six were killed because they gave Israel information about fighters and rocket launching sites.

The killing came on the seventh day of an Israeli military offensive that has killed more than 120 Palestinians, both militants and civilians. Israel has launched hundreds of airstrikes, targeting rocket launching sites, weapons caches and homes of Hamas activists, as Palestinians fired hundreds of rockets at Israel.

Israel relies on a network of local informers to identify its targets in Gaza.

The six were killed on Tuesday afternoon in Gaza City's Sheik Radwan neighbourhood.

Witnesses said a van stopped in the intersection, and four masked men pushed the six suspected informers out of the vehicle. Salim Mahmoud, 18, said the gunmen ordered the six to lie face down in the street and then shot them dead. Another witness, 13-year-old Mokhmen al-Gazhali, said the informers were killed one by one, as he mimicked the sound of gunfire.

They said only a few people were in the street at first most Gazans have been staying indoors because of the Israeli airstrikes but the crowd quickly grew after the killings. Eventually several hundred men pushed and shoved to get a close look at the bodies, lying in a jumble on the ground. One man spit at the corpses, another kicked the head of one of the dead men.

"They should have been killed in a more brutal fashion so others don't even think about working with the occupation (Israel)," said one of the bystanders, 24-year-old Ashraf Maher.

One body was then tied by a cable to the back of a motorcycle and dragged through the streets. A number of gunmen on motorcycles rode along as the body was pulled past a house of mourning for victims of an Israeli airstrike.

There is broad consensus among Palestinians that informers for Israel deserve harsh punishment, and it is rare to hear someone speak out against killings of alleged collaborators. Such public killings been carried out in the West Bank and Gaza since the first uprising against Israeli occupation in the late 1980s.

In Israel's last major Gaza offensive four years ago, 17 suspected collaborators who fled after their prisons were hit in airstrikes were later shot dead in extra-judicial killings.

During the current offensive, Tuesday's killings brought to eight the number of suspected informers being shot dead in public. On Friday, the body of one alleged informer was found in a garbage bin, and another was shot dead in the street. Hamas claimed responsibility for both killings.

Since seizing Gaza in 2007, Hamas has executed four informers by firing squad, and about a dozen more are on death row in Gaza.

http://news.yahoo.com/hamas-militants-publicly-kill-6-suspected-informers-israel-170253367.html
Andrew Sullivan says this kind of behavior is Israel's fault.

patteeu
11-20-2012, 01:59 PM
Masked gunmen publicly shot dead six suspected collaborators with Israel in a large Gaza City intersection Tuesday, witnesses said.

...

Israel relies on a network of local informers to identify its targets in Gaza.

These killings were Israel's fault for trying to minimize collateral damage.

Iowanian
11-20-2012, 02:00 PM
I think the images of an "Israeli sympathizer" being dragged through the streets behind motorcycles should show Direkshun exactly what she supports.

mnchiefsguy
11-20-2012, 02:05 PM
I think the images of an "Israeli sympathizer" being dragged through the streets behind motorcycles should show Direkshun exactly what she supports.

Direckshun is the master of not supporting Hamas, while supporting Hamas.

vailpass
11-20-2012, 02:07 PM
If Palestine wants a fight they should be allowed to have it.

Let slip the Jews.

HonestChieffan
11-20-2012, 02:46 PM
Gotta love the far left and how bizarre some of them can be. Rockets are "not that scary" if they fall in Israel and you are a LibHag from fucking Nashville. These people disgust me.
Helen Thomas would be proud.

http://redalertpolitics.com/2012/11/20/protesters-to-israel-move-back-to-europe-rocket-attacks-not-that-scary-hamas-not-a-terrorist-group/



Approximately 100 protesters gathered near the Vanderbilt University campus in Nashville on Saturday to protest Israel’s response to the recent barrage of Hamas rocket attacks. Hamas allies have launched 1,300 rocket attacks so far this year, and Israel has recently responded by precision targeting rocket launch sites and ammunition storage facilities, in addition to Hamas political infrastructure. Israel’s attempt to diminish terrorist capabilities has been done with precautions to minimize loss of innocent life. In fact, Israel continues to transport food for Gaza residents across the border even throughout the present conflict. Yet, as I interviewed many of those at the protest, the open hostility to Israel’s existence as a Jewish state and refusal to condemn Hamas was stunning.

One protester claimed ALL of Israel is on occupied land, including Tel Aviv, Jaffa, and Haifa. According to him, “Every square foot of Palestine is owned by the Palestinians. The Israelites have no reason to stay there, ever.” He went on to stay, “Your citizens are not supposed to be there. This land is not yours! Move off! Move back to Europe where you came from.” Another sign he held proclaimed “the imposter Jews should go back to Asia.”

A lady claimed the Israeli response to the Hamas rocket attacks is “almost the same” as the Holocaust which claimed the lives of over 6 million people. Several young children apparently with her gathered around a sign claiming that Israel’s military actions – a defense of herself against Gaza terrorists- is tantamount to another “holocaust.”

Another lady at the protest claimed that the Hamas rocket attacks are “not even that scary” and that “Israel is the great aggressor.” She also inaccurately declared that “no one has been allowed in or out [of Gaza] since 2007” and bizarrely claimed that Hamas has only fired “a couple of rockets back” at Israel. Furthermore, she stated Israel’s response in Gaza is “ethnic cleansing and genocide.”

go bowe
11-20-2012, 04:52 PM
This is nonsense, IMO. It didn't work to turn the palestinian people against Arafat's PLO (instead he rallied the 2nd intifada against Israel) so why should it work to turn them against Hamas?

it didn't work because the deals offered were unrealistic and unreasonable...

for example the deal everyone talks about being rejected by arafat would have allowed israel to control water rights for the west bank, which is unacceptable in an arid land...

we don't know what a reasonable deal would do in terms of hamas losing popular support because no such deal has ever been offered...

we don't have to "turn them against" hamas, we only need for them to vote them out...

i'm not saying that such an offer would necessarily work, but whatever has been tried for the last 60 some years hasn't worked yetl...

maybe a new approach might yield the results that most israelis and palestinians want, which is peace and freedom...

HonestChieffan
11-20-2012, 05:02 PM
The Hamas Covenant specifically addresses these "approaches" that people keep talking about.

Article Thirteen:

Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement. Abusing any part of Palestine is abuse directed against part of religion. Nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its religion. Its members have been fed on that. For the sake of hoisting the banner of Allah over their homeland they fight. "Allah will be prominent, but most people do not know."

Now and then the call goes out for the convening of an international conference to look for ways of solving the (Palestinian) question. Some accept, others reject the idea, for this or other reason, with one stipulation or more for consent to convening the conference and participating in it. Knowing the parties constituting the conference, their past and present attitudes towards Moslem problems, the Islamic Resistance Movement does not consider these conferences capable of realising the demands, restoring the rights or doing justice to the oppressed. These conferences are only ways of setting the infidels in the land of the Moslems as arbitraters. When did the infidels do justice to the believers?

"But the Jews will not be pleased with thee, neither the Christians, until thou follow their religion; say, The direction of Allah is the true direction. And verily if thou follow their desires, after the knowledge which hath been given thee, thou shalt find no patron or protector against Allah." (The Cow - verse 120).
There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors. The Palestinian people know better than to consent to having their future, rights and fate toyed with. As in said in the honourable Hadith:

"The people of Syria are Allah's lash in His land. He wreaks His vengeance through them against whomsoever He wishes among His slaves It is unthinkable that those who are double-faced among them should prosper over the faithful. They will certainly die out of grief and desperation."

Anyone who thinks Hamas has any interest in coexistance is terribly uninformed.

Reading this helps understand...http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp

patteeu
11-20-2012, 05:12 PM
it didn't work because the deals offered were unrealistic and unreasonable...

for example the deal everyone talks about being rejected by arafat would have allowed israel to control water rights for the west bank, which is unacceptable in an arid land...

we don't know what a reasonable deal would do in terms of hamas losing popular support because no such deal has ever been offered...

we don't have to "turn them against" hamas, we only need for them to vote them out...

i'm not saying that such an offer would necessarily work, but whatever has been tried for the last 60 some years hasn't worked yetl...

maybe a new approach might yield the results that most israelis and palestinians want, which is peace and freedom...

So palestinians would rather jihad than accept a de-militarized, independent state that depends on those upstream for their water? Sounds like they don't want peace to me. Beggars shouldn't believe they have the luxury to be choosers.

Direckshun
11-20-2012, 05:32 PM
Pretty sure, eh?

No, no deal.

My point exactly.

You do not believe in any meaningful two-state solution. If you did, you have yet to describe it.

That's on you.

Direckshun
11-20-2012, 05:35 PM
It doesn't require time travel for palestinians to unite under leadership that would oust Hamas, defang militants and make a real peace with Israel. It won't happen because there aren't enough palestinians who want that. Whether that's because they've been misled to believe that Israel is evil or because they are evil themselves doesn't really matter.

Uh, it does matter.

If you can understand why they believe what they believe, you can begin to influence it.

That's like... not even Diplomacy 101. Not even Psychology 101. That's not even the persuasion chapter in 9th grade.

That's what you learn when you're 8, bitching at your parents that you want another cookie.

Direckshun
11-20-2012, 05:37 PM
Why would Hamas go along with this pipe dream? Why wouldn't they create another conflict to make sure that the Gaza palestinians continue to need their protection? Is Israel then supposed to bend over and take it no matter how many Israelis die to avoid playing into Hamas' hands? This is an unworkable plan as long as there isn't a glimmer of hope that Hamas might be willing to choose peace and based on your posts in this thread you seem to concede that that glimmer doesn't exist.

Hamas doesn't want to go along with it. Palestinians only follow them at this point because theirs is the only option that makes any amount of sense from their point of view.

Once you start legitimately, honestly acting and offering in favor of better solutions, that will change. And Hamas will either have to adapt to fit Palestinian wishes, or lose power.

Direckshun
11-20-2012, 05:39 PM
Andrew Sullivan says this kind of behavior is Israel's fault.

Swing and a miss.

Hell that was barely even a swing. It's like you're not even trying to hit the ball.

Direckshun
11-20-2012, 05:40 PM
I think the images of an "Israeli sympathizer" being dragged through the streets behind motorcycles should show Direkshun exactly what she supports.

What is it that you think I support?

I'm all ears, beautiful.

Direckshun
11-20-2012, 05:41 PM
Direckshun is the master of not supporting Hamas, while supporting Hamas.

Seeing as how you don't even read my posts, I'm not sure what role you think you're playing in this conversation.

Cheerleader for the guys that do? That's fun.

Direckshun
11-20-2012, 05:43 PM
So palestinians would rather jihad than accept a de-militarized, independent state that depends on those upstream for their water? Sounds like they don't want peace to me. Beggars shouldn't believe they have the luxury to be choosers.

Self-determination is the name of the game. Just keep that in mind.

patteeu
11-20-2012, 05:46 PM
Uh, it does matter.

If you can understand why they believe what they believe, you can begin to influence it.

That's like... not even Diplomacy 101. Not even Psychology 101. That's not even the persuasion chapter in 9th grade.

That's what you learn when you're 8, bitching at your parents that you want another cookie.

I never cared for cookies all that much. It seems to me that the palestinians continue to get better treatment than they deserve.

go bowe
11-20-2012, 05:51 PM
So palestinians would rather jihad than accept a de-militarized, independent state that depends on those upstream for their water? Sounds like they don't want peace to me. Beggars shouldn't believe they have the luxury to be choosers.

iirc, it wasn't about upstream sources but water usage in the territories and control of that...

the concern is that israel would divert much of the available water to the use of settlements rather than palestinians...

and i don't view palestinians as beggars...

they are a people who deserve self-government just as much as any other people...

and regardless of your opinion i still believe palestinians will ultimately choose peace if it is actually offered to them in a deal that grants palestine sovereignty and control over their own state and its resources...

there are difficult issues to be negotiated but undermining hamas can only help lead to real solutions...

i would think that undermining hamas would be a goal of both israel and the pla in order to move toward peace...

Direckshun
11-20-2012, 05:56 PM
It seems to me that the palestinians continue to get better treatment than they deserve.

Ah, systemic poverty, widespread malnutrician, and a reliance on humanitarian aid not to starve to death in large numbers.

Better treatment than they deserve, alright!

patteeu
11-20-2012, 06:00 PM
iirc, it wasn't about upstream sources but water usage in the territories and control of that...

the concern is that israel would divert much of the available water to the use of settlements rather than palestinians...

and i don't view palestinians as beggars...

they are a people who deserve self-government just as much as any other people...

and regardless of your opinion i still believe palestinians will ultimately choose peace if it is actually offered to them in a deal that grants palestine sovereignty and control over their own state and its resources...

there are difficult issues to be negotiated but undermining hamas can only help lead to real solutions...

i would think that undermining hamas would be a goal of both israel and the pla in order to move toward peace...

Are you willing to require the palestinian state to be de-militarized even though that is a blow against their sovereignty just as the water control issue would be? Because given the hateful history of Israel's neighbors, Israel cannot accept the threat that would be created by establishing a palestinian state with an unlimited ability to militarize. Water is nearly as much of a security issue as weaponry.

Israel tried to partner with Fatah to undermine Hamas prior to Hamas' election in Gaza but Fatah failed to do what was necessary (arrests, disarmaments, etc.). My guess is that it was because the palestinian people wouldn't have allowed it. That means the problem is the people, not just Hamas.

patteeu
11-20-2012, 06:01 PM
Ah, systemic poverty, widespread malnutrician, and a reliance on humanitarian aid not to starve to death in large numbers.

Better treatment than they deserve, alright!

They could have much better than that if they demanded peace from their leaders instead of supporting war.

Direckshun
11-20-2012, 06:03 PM
They could have much better than that if they demanded peace from their leaders instead of supporting war.

They support themselves, as all peoples do.

They live in dire conditions, and they no longer trust that Israel has any interest in compromise.

So you can sit where you are in Shit House, Inc., or you can do something about it.

Through that perspective, electing Hamas makes some sense.

go bowe
11-20-2012, 06:08 PM
I never cared for cookies all that much. It seems to me that the palestinians continue to get better treatment than they deserve.

and what exactly do they deserve?

another 60 years of conflict and occupation?

a denial of human rights which are routinely accorded to other people?

dislocation and disruption of their communities and culture?

what is it that the palestinian people deserve?

and why do they deserve it?

because hamas is crazy and only concerned with staying in power, all palestinians should suffer?

because some palestinians continue to be radicalized and don't want peace?

what do they deserve because part of their leadership is violent and virulently anti-israel?

and what about the israelis? what do they deserve? most of the west bank and all of jerusalem? do you think they will ever find peace by pursuing those policies?

attitudes like yours are one reason that the conflict might not ever be settled...

it's not possible to find a basis to compromise and resolve the conflict if you're unwilling to take into account the rights of ordinary palestinians and view them as somehow not deserving of self-government and inalienable human rights...

go bowe
11-20-2012, 06:18 PM
Are you willing to require the palestinian state to be de-militarized even though that is a blow against their sovereignty just as the water control issue would be? Because given the hateful history of Israel's neighbors, Israel cannot accept the threat that would be created by establishing a palestinian state with an unlimited ability to militarize. Water is nearly as much of a security issue as weaponry.

Israel tried to partner with Fatah to undermine Hamas prior to Hamas' election in Gaza but Fatah failed to do what was necessary (arrests, disarmaments, etc.). My guess is that it was because the palestinian people wouldn't have allowed it. That means the problem is the people, not just Hamas.

demilitarization of palestine is something that can and should be negotiated...

in an ideal world, palestine should have no restrictions on it's sovereignty but israel will never agree to that so the palestinian leadership has to be willing to agree to that in order to acheive peace...

iirc, fatah fought hamas in gaza but were defeated and expelled...

as for your guess, it's just that, a guess...

and based on your guess, you conclude that the problem is the palestinian people and not just hamas...

that's your opinion and you are entitled to it, i just think you're wrong in this instance (which is only my opinion, but based on reporting in the arab press, particularly aj which spends a lot of time covering the israeli-palestinian conflict)...

mlyonsd
11-20-2012, 07:08 PM
Swing and a miss.

Hell that was barely even a swing. It's like you're not even trying to hit the ball.No, I pretty much nailed it. According to Sullivan, Matthew's chief dick sucker, if Israel didn't continue these "incursions" the Palestinians wouldn't feel so "embittered" they'd feel the need to execute some of their own and drag their dead bodies around with motorcycles.

Donger
11-20-2012, 07:12 PM
My point exactly.

You do not believe in any meaningful two-state solution. If you did, you have yet to describe it.

That's on you.

It all has to begin with "the Palestinians" and Hamas being willing to acknowledge Israel's right to exist. Israel has demonstrated wanting and making peace with an enemy who was willing to do that (e.g. Egypt).

What have the Palestinians or Hamas demonstrated to show they are serious about peace with Israel?

Donger
11-20-2012, 07:14 PM
Hamas doesn't want to go along with it. Palestinians only follow them at this point because theirs is the only option that makes any amount of sense from their point of view.

Once you start legitimately, honestly acting and offering in favor of better solutions, that will change. And Hamas will either have to adapt to fit Palestinian wishes, or lose power.

That's beautiful. Just a reminder:

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/KrM0dAFsZ8k" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

mlyonsd
11-20-2012, 07:18 PM
It all has to begin with "the Palestinians" and Hamas being willing to acknowledge Israel's right to exist. Israel has demonstrated wanting and making peace with an enemy who was willing to do that (e.g. Egypt).

What have the Palestinians or Hamas demonstrated to show they are serious about peace with Israel?
Bingo.

Direckshun
11-20-2012, 08:02 PM
No, I pretty much nailed it.

Well that is just awesome.

Direckshun
11-20-2012, 08:04 PM
It all has to begin with "the Palestinians" and Hamas being willing to acknowledge Israel's right to exist.

Even with that, you would refuse a two-state solution, would you not.

Direckshun
11-20-2012, 08:04 PM
That's beautiful.

It's reality.

Donger
11-20-2012, 08:05 PM
Even with that, you would refuse a two-state solution, would you not.

No, I would gladly and joyously accept it.

Donger
11-20-2012, 08:06 PM
It's reality.

Yes, I know. Nice folks you support there. Does that display of joy bother you at all?

Direckshun
11-20-2012, 08:07 PM
No, I would gladly and joyously accept it.

With the '67 borders?

Direckshun
11-20-2012, 08:09 PM
Yes, I know. Nice folks you support there. Does that display of joy bother you at all?

If you want to start a new topic examining my feelings towards the Palestinian celebrations in the wake of 9/11, I'll go there and answer all your questions. Promised.

This thread is not about me, and I'm not derailing it to me. It's about Palestine's struggle for statehood. Who I am is irrelevent to that.

Donger
11-20-2012, 08:09 PM
With the '67 borders?

Perhaps.

Donger
11-20-2012, 08:10 PM
If you want to start a new topic examining my feelings towards the Palestinian celebrations in the wake of 9/11, I'll go there and answer all your questions. Promised.

This thread is not about me, and I'm not derailing it to me. It's about Palestine's struggle for statehood.

There's no need for that. I'm sure that you find their displays of joy distasteful but you understand why they did so.

Direckshun
11-20-2012, 08:11 PM
Perhaps.

Therein lies the rub.

Direckshun
11-20-2012, 08:11 PM
There's no need for that. I'm sure that you find their displays of joy distasteful but you understand why they did so.

I'm glad we had this talk.

Donger
11-20-2012, 08:13 PM
Therein lies the rub.

It isn't even a touch let alone a rub, unless and until the "Palestinians" and Hamas recognize Israel's right to exist.

Again, Israel has demonstrated historical precedent of making peace with those who are willing to make that necessary step. The "Palestinians" and Hamas have not.

You still haven't given ANY examples to the contrary. Because you can't.

Donger
11-20-2012, 08:14 PM
I'm glad we had this talk.

I know it's icky for you, but the truth sometimes is.

mlyonsd
11-20-2012, 08:19 PM
If anyone wants this settled they first have to understand Hamas has to acknowledge Israel's right to exist. It is that simple.

Direckshun
11-20-2012, 08:22 PM
If anyone wants this settled they first have to understand Hamas has to acknowledge Israel's right to exist. It is that simple.

There's a lot of things that "have" to happen.

I'm not convinced that's one of them.

patteeu
11-20-2012, 08:23 PM
and what exactly do they deserve?

another 60 years of conflict and occupation?

a denial of human rights which are routinely accorded to other people?

dislocation and disruption of their communities and culture?

what is it that the palestinian people deserve?

and why do they deserve it?

because hamas is crazy and only concerned with staying in power, all palestinians should suffer?

because some palestinians continue to be radicalized and don't want peace?

what do they deserve because part of their leadership is violent and virulently anti-israel?

and what about the israelis? what do they deserve? most of the west bank and all of jerusalem? do you think they will ever find peace by pursuing those policies?

attitudes like yours are one reason that the conflict might not ever be settled...

it's not possible to find a basis to compromise and resolve the conflict if you're unwilling to take into account the rights of ordinary palestinians and view them as somehow not deserving of self-government and inalienable human rights...

They deserve to continue to enjoy the miseries of non-statehood, poverty, violent conflict and all of the other bad things you listed.

They deserve these things because they continue to support the people who prevent them from getting the blessings of peace and relative prosperity that Israel offers them.

Donger
11-20-2012, 08:25 PM
There's a lot of things that "have" to happen.

I'm not convinced that's one of them.

:spock:

Egypt? Jordan?

What is the common thread between those two and Israel?

Direckshun
11-20-2012, 08:26 PM
They deserve to continue to enjoy the miseries of non-statehood, poverty, violent conflict and all of the other bad things you listed.

They deserve these things because they continue to support the people who prevent them from getting the blessings of peace and relative prosperity that Israel offers them.

Israel's offering them peace and prosperity?

Link, please.

mlyonsd
11-20-2012, 08:27 PM
There's a lot of things that "have" to happen.

I'm not convinced that's one of them.You think Israel should give ground back, fought and won in a war they didn't start, to a people that doesn't think they have a right to exist?

HonestChieffan
11-20-2012, 08:30 PM
You think Israel should give ground back, fought and won in a war they didn't start, to a people that doesn't think they have a right to exist?

Nice summary

Easy 6
11-20-2012, 08:33 PM
Israel's offering them peace and prosperity?

Link, please.

A link isnt needed, pat is 100% correct.

You dont think that if there was a true peace between them, diplomatic relations, the whole nine... that the palestinians wouldnt prosper from that?

Israel has turned that dry scrub into an agricultural miracle, they could help them with things like that, trade, the list could go on and on.

Direckshun
11-20-2012, 08:33 PM
:spock:

Egypt? Jordan?

What is the common thread between those two and Israel?

I don't think an admission of existence from Hamas/Palestine is necessary on a couple grounds, but this is really the only one that matters:

By itself, admission of Israel's existence doesn't stop the rockets Hamas is lobbing into Israel, nor how Israel will react to them. It doesn't prevent the fact that the Likud clearly wants a Greater Israel.

If I'm Hamas (and I'm very much not), I understand that this is a chip I'm willing to give up in negotiations. Not necessarily before.

patteeu
11-20-2012, 08:34 PM
Israel's offering them peace and prosperity?

Link, please.

Here's one example. (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Camp_David_Summit#section_3)

Direckshun
11-20-2012, 08:34 PM
You think Israel should give ground back, fought and won in a war they didn't start, to a people that doesn't think they have a right to exist?

Swing and a miss.

Direckshun
11-20-2012, 08:35 PM
A link isnt needed, pat is 100% correct.

You dont think that if there was a true peace between them, diplomatic relations, the whole nine... that the palestinians wouldnt prosper from that?

I don't disagree. But that's not what Israel is offering.

Direckshun
11-20-2012, 08:35 PM
Here's one example. (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Camp_David_Summit#section_3)

Ah, time travel.

Amazing how all the solutions we need for success involve time travel.

Donger
11-20-2012, 08:37 PM
I don't think an admission of existence from Hamas/Palestine is necessary on a couple grounds, but this is really the only one that matters:

By itself, admission of Israel's existence doesn't stop the rockets Hamas is lobbing into Israel, nor how Israel will react to them. It doesn't prevent the fact that the Likud clearly wants a Greater Israel.

If I'm Hamas (and I'm very much not), I understand that this is a chip I'm willing to give up in negotiations. Not necessarily before.

I see. So you'll willfully ignore historical precedent of how peace can be had between Israel and her enemies.

mlyonsd
11-20-2012, 08:41 PM
Swing and a miss.It's like talking to a post.

Direckshun
11-20-2012, 08:41 PM
I see. So you'll willfully ignore historical precedent of how peace can be had between Israel and her enemies.

I wouldn't say that.

But historical precedent is not legal precedent. It does not control in all cases.

Donger
11-20-2012, 08:43 PM
Ah, time travel.

Amazing how all the solutions we need for success involve time travel.

Would you agree that the Palestinians scuttled that potential deal at peace?

Direckshun
11-20-2012, 08:44 PM
It's like talking to a post.

If the roles were reversed, and you've had your position on this issue misrepresented, oftentimes willfully, a hundred thousand times over five years, I'm willing to bet you'd forgive me for not correcting what people have already decided to believe.

If they, and you, want to believe I'm a bloodthirsty mongrel looking for a unilateral Israeli surrender, then there's very little I can do about it. And I'm not interested in combing through it when you've already decided what you want to believe.

HonestChieffan
11-20-2012, 08:44 PM
It's like talking to a post.

Ground action should be drawing close.

Donger
11-20-2012, 08:44 PM
I wouldn't say that.

But historical precedent is not legal precedent. It does not control in all cases.

I don't even know what that means. It shows HOW peace CAN be had with Israel. You agree with that, right?

Direckshun
11-20-2012, 08:46 PM
Would you agree that the Palestinians scuttled that potential deal at peace?

Oh yeah. And Hamas doesn't want peace now. That's not the issue.

Direckshun
11-20-2012, 08:46 PM
I don't even know what that means. It shows HOW peace CAN be had with Israel. You agree with that, right?

I would agree, yes.

Your argument seems to be that that's how how peace WILL be had with Israel.

I disagree with that assessment.

mlyonsd
11-20-2012, 08:49 PM
If the roles were reversed, and you've had your position on this issue misrepresented, oftentimes willfully, a hundred thousand times over five years, I'm willing to bet you'd forgive me for not correcting what people have already decided to believe.

If they, and you, want to believe I'm a bloodthirsty mongrel looking for a unilateral Israeli surrender, then there's very little I can do about it. And I'm not interested in combing through it when you've already decided what you want to believe.
I'm acting as the other side of your argument and you've failed miserably.

Any agreement has to be equal. You seem to only understand one side.

Donger
11-20-2012, 08:49 PM
Oh yeah. And Hamas doesn't want peace now. That's not the issue.

Then what is the issue?

Donger
11-20-2012, 08:50 PM
I would agree, yes.

Your argument seems to be that that's how how peace WILL be had with Israel.

I disagree with that assessment.

I'd like to think that historical precedent shows both, actually. Unfortunately, neither Hamas or the "Palestinians" seem willing to emulate Egypt or Jordan.

Pity.

Direckshun
11-20-2012, 08:52 PM
I'm acting as the other side of your argument and you've failed miserably.

Any agreement has to be equal. You seem to only understand one side.

Oh, I fail every argument miserably. I'm not a very smart guy. That's not news.

But agreements don't have to be equal, they just have to be fair enough that both sides agree to it.

I'm assuming that you meant "fair," not "equal."

Direckshun
11-20-2012, 08:53 PM
Then what is the issue?

How do you attain a two-state solution in 2012.

Donger
11-20-2012, 08:54 PM
How do you attain a two-state solution in 2012.

Required step one: acknowledge the right to exist for all parties.

Direckshun
11-20-2012, 08:54 PM
I'd like to think that historical precedent shows both, actually. Unfortunately, neither Hamas or the "Palestinians" seem willing to emulate Egypt or Jordan.

I think the situations are too dissimilar, honestly.

Direckshun
11-20-2012, 08:55 PM
Required step one: acknowledge the right to exist for all parties.

Required step one is a ceasefire, actually.

Donger
11-20-2012, 08:56 PM
I think the situations are too dissimilar, honestly.

Why?

Donger
11-20-2012, 08:57 PM
Required step one is a ceasefire, actually.

That's a tactical situation and a given.

HonestChieffan
11-20-2012, 09:11 PM
Required step one is a ceasefire, actually.

Thats a bit strange. There is no need for a ceasefire to begin talks. No one in the strong position is going to give up the best chip they have in the negotiation...Talk can go on anytime. You allow a ceasefire when you know the talks will succeed.

mlyonsd
11-20-2012, 09:11 PM
Oh, I fail every argument miserably. I'm not a very smart guy. That's not news.

But agreements don't have to be equal, they just have to be fair enough that both sides agree to it.

I'm assuming that you meant "fair," not "equal."Do you agree if Hamas and the rest of Palestine agreed Israel had a right to exist, world public sentiment would roll to their side?

Direckshun
11-20-2012, 09:15 PM
Do you agree if Hamas and the rest of Palestine agreed Israel had a right to exist, world public sentiment would roll to their side?

I'd check the OP.

World opinion's already heavily in support of a free Palestine.

HonestChieffan
11-20-2012, 09:18 PM
I'd check the OP.

World opinion's already heavily in support of a free Palestine.

Russia
Venezuela
All Muslim Countries

world opinion

stevieray
11-20-2012, 10:24 PM
There's a lot of things that "have" to happen.

I'm not convinced that's one of them.

and there it is... a right to exist doesn't need to happen...coupled with I'm very not Hamas...I don't buy it....you have no logical reason to be so emotionally attached.....trotting out comlete sympathy for for one group, while totally rejecting it for another..it is so hypocritical I don't know how anyone can take you seriously..Id bet almost anything you will never explain why this means so much to you...my guess is you rebellion against your conservative upbringing...it's like the preachers daughter becoming a slut.

the delusion is completely mindboggling...arabs in palestine have a right to statehood, but Israel doesn't have a right to exist...literally thousands of rockets fired into Israel,but hey, the Arabs were provoked, so they get a pass.. and they want to destroy Israel and yet these Arabs deserve and should be rewarded statehood? Funny how it never mattered in the past...know why? there wasn't a need..know why? the offical recognizement of Jews back in their homeland.

You support murder....

Nafman87
11-21-2012, 04:39 AM
Bomb on bus in heart of Tel Aviv next to the Kirya, which is Israel's Pentagon.

Nafman87
11-21-2012, 05:13 AM
And in gaza the Arabs are dancing and shooting their guns in the air. These people want peace? Give me a break

ForeverChiefs58
11-21-2012, 07:05 AM
And in gaza the Arabs are dancing and shooting their guns in the air. These people want peace? Give me a break


Maybe we can expect more from the people in West Bank?

Oops, guess not.


West Bank Palestinians cheer on their Gaza counterparts

Palestinians in the West Bank have staged solidarity marches, praising Gaza's rocket strikes on Israel and calling for an end to the diplomacy track with Israel

"We cheer for the all rockets, especially the ones on Tel Aviv," chanted a voice from the booming sound system at the head of a parade of demonstrators in Al Manara Square, at the center of Ramallah. "Negotiations are dead.''

"In every street and every alleyway, Palestinians from all factions are coming out," says legislator Abduljaber Fuqahaa. "For them, the resistance is the only way."

http://news.yahoo.com/west-bank-palestinians-cheer-gaza-counterparts-183600854.html;_ylt=Ani7cjF6soobChUk0jaZRbbyWed_;_ylu=X3oDMTVwbXZkZnQ4BGNjb2RlA2dtcHRvcDEwMDBwb29sd2 lraXVwcmVzdARtaXQDTkZVIEJ1Y2tldCBBcnRpY2xlIENvcmUgTkZVIHdpdGhvdXQgTW9yZSBMaW5rBHBrZwMzM2MxODFkZC02Nz AwLTM5NWMtYWExYy1jMGE4NWNiNTE4Y2YEcG9zAzEEc2VjA25ld3NfZm9yX3lvdQR2ZXIDOGM0NWQwZTAtMzM0Mi0xMWUyLWJkMG UtMTRjZDQ5ZGQ4YTU1;_ylg=X3oDMTNodDhtc3U2BGludGwDdXMEbGFuZwNlbi11cwRwc3RhaWQDMTIwNTZiZmYtMjg4MS0zMzI3 LWE3YWEtMWQ0MmUxZGVjZjkyBHBzdGNhdAN3b3JsZHxtaWRkbGVlYXN0BHB0A3N0b3J5cGFnZQR0ZXN0A040VV9jb3Jl;_ylv=3

HonestChieffan
11-21-2012, 07:31 AM
Hillary will fix it.

mlyonsd
11-21-2012, 07:52 AM
I'd check the OP.

World opinion's already heavily in support of a free Palestine.
Yeah not really when they are in rocket lobbing mode.

Do you think the entire peace process would be jump started and put on a faster track if Hamas would recognize Israel?

ForeverChiefs58
11-21-2012, 08:20 AM
And in gaza the Arabs are dancing and shooting their guns in the air. These people want peace? Give me a break

I was wondering what you thought of Abbas, the PA and Fatah?

Do you view him as "moderate", or caring about peace? Or is it more rinse and repeat of what was there before?

Thanks for your insight

Direckshun
11-21-2012, 09:03 AM
Yeah not really when they are in rocket lobbing mode.

Do you think the entire peace process would be jump started and put on a faster track if Hamas would recognize Israel?

I do, yes. I think there are several things that would put peace on a faster track -- that would be one of them.

You understand that Hamas, therefore, won't do that.

ForeverChiefs58
11-21-2012, 11:10 AM
This should be an act of war punished by nukes

Iranian Commander: Iran missile technology sent to Gaza

TEHRAN, Iran (AP) — Iran has supplied Hamas in Gaza with the technology to "quickly" produce longer-range missiles on their own without needing direct shipments, said a report Wednesday that quoted the head of Iran's powerful Revolutionary Guard.

The comments by Gen. Mohammad Ali Jafari offer some of the clearest insights on Iran's weapons support for Hamas, whose Iranian-engineered Fajr-5 missiles have struck near Tel Aviv and Jerusalem during weeklong battles with Israel.

"Gaza is under siege, so we cannot help them. The Fajr-5 missiles have not been shipped from Iran. Its technology has been transferred and (the missiles are) being produced quickly," Jafari was quoted as saying by the semiofficial ISNA news agency.

Iran has repeatedly denied it directly supplied Hamas with the Fajr-5. The ISNA report gave no further details on the level of missile know-how sent to Gaza or the channels used.

Israel charges that Iran sends weapons, including rockets, to Gaza through a network of smuggling tunnels under the 15-kilometer (9-mile) border between Gaza and Egypt.

Iran also backs the anti-Israel faction Hezbollah in Lebanon, which fired thousands of rockets into Israel during a monthlong 2006 war.

Iran's parliament speaker, Ali Larijani, meanwhile, said his country was "honored" that Iran could help Palestinians with "material and military aspects." He did not elaborate.

He criticized Arab countries for failing to help arm Hamas and other Palestinian groups. "The Palestinian nation does not need speeches and meetings. Arab countries should send military aid," he was quoted as saying by the semiofficial Fars news agency.

Iran's Supreme Leader Ayatollah Khamenei also chided other Muslim nations for not rallying behind Gaza in the latest showdown with Israel.

"Some of them sufficed with words, and some others did not condemn Israel', Khamenei said, according to the official Islamic Republic News Agency.

Israel has carried out hundreds of airstrikes in Gaza over the past week in an operation it says is meant to stop daily rocket salvos by Gaza militants at Israel.

Iran and Israel are bitter enemies, and the two nations are locked in a deepening dispute over Iran's nuclear program. The West and others fear Iran could eventually produce nuclear weapons, and Israel has left open the option of staging a military strike at its nuclear facilities.

Iran says its nuclear program is for peaceful purposes

http://news.yahoo.com/commander-iran-missile-technology-sent-gaza-144357088.html

HonestChieffan
11-21-2012, 11:11 AM
Arab Spring coming to full flower.....

Direckshun
11-21-2012, 11:41 AM
Why the ceasefire fell through (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/nov/21/how-imminent-gaza-ceasefire-unravelled):

The reality, it emerged on Wednesday, is that both sides were facing internal opposition to the proposed ceasefire. In Israel, according to some reports, a cabinet split saw the defence minister, Ehud Barak, prepared to accept the ceasefire originally on offer while the prime minister, Binyamin Netanyahu, and foreign minister, Avigdor Lieberman, were opposed. That split, some analysts have speculated, may have as much to do with Israel's internal politics, with an election on the horizon, as the substance of any deal.

On the Palestinian side the argument was even more complicated, pitting factions within Hamas who were happy to accept a ceasefire against hardliners around Mohamed Deif, Hamas's military commander and other groups, who seek an immediate lifting of the blockade and opening of the Rafah border crossing. In Hamas itself there has been growing competition both between the military side, which has taken increasing prominence, and the political wing, and between Khalid Meshaal, the main leader in exile, and the Hamas prime minister, Ismail Haniya.

HonestChieffan
11-21-2012, 12:08 PM
http://rt.com/news/gaza-israel-hamas-attack-687/

Hamas and their allies will push this too far. This is a good site to keep up without our media's spin

HonestChieffan
11-21-2012, 12:17 PM
Reporting another cease fire agreement.....who knows how many times this will happen

Donger
11-21-2012, 12:27 PM
Looks like Hillary threatened to send nudie pictures of herself to both sides.

HonestChieffan
11-21-2012, 12:29 PM
Looks like Hillary threatened to send nudie pictures of herself to both sides.

The woman needs a hairdresser. Badly

Nafman87
11-21-2012, 12:36 PM
Caese fire starts in a half hour. Meanwhile Hamas is using all the time they have left to bomb the shit out of us.

HonestChieffan
11-21-2012, 12:38 PM
Caese fire starts in a half hour. Meanwhile Hamas is using all the time they have left to bomb the shit out of us.

How long will it hold? Can they even be trusted at all? And will they send out more suicide bombers in the meantime?

Nafman87
11-21-2012, 12:38 PM
No. They can't be trusted. This won't last long....

HonestChieffan
11-21-2012, 12:40 PM
No. They can't be trusted. This won't last long....


I hope you are wrong but I would bet you are correct.

Nafman87
11-21-2012, 12:40 PM
The best part about it is Hamas will call this a victory for themselves saying " Israel didn't accomplish everything they wanted, so we win" happens every time.

ForeverChiefs58
11-21-2012, 03:04 PM
Pretty easy to see which side is true evil, and which side is not. Deflecshun needs to take that blindfold off.


Rockets hold up aid for Gaza from Israel

TEL AVIV (Reuters) - Hamas rockets forced the closure of the main crossing point for humanitarian aid from Israel to Gaza on Tuesday, holding up the transfer of more than 100 truckloads of food and medical supplies including anesthetics, Israeli officials said.

Despite the fact its air force is bombarding the coastal enclave, Israel is trying to maintain the essential daily flow of basic foodstuffs into the Gaza Strip where most of 1.7 million Palestinians are dependent on aid.

A Twitter message from the Israel Defence Forces (IDF) said that "120+ trucks of supplies from Israel are waiting at Gaza border crossing. Hamas is firing rockets at the crossing. Trucks can't enter now".

Israel says it launched its military offensive a week ago to halt increasing Islamist militant rocket fire on southern Israeli communities close to the Gaza Strip.

The Kerem Shalom crossing at the extreme south of the Israel-Gaza border, next to Egyptian territory, is the only freight passage into the blockaded territory.

No comment was available from Hamas. But a Palestinian liaison official said the crossing was closed after some mortar bombs landed at Kerem Shalom and work was suspended after just one hour of operations. The western-backed Palestinian Authority liaises with Israel on Kerem Shalom transfers.

For security reasons, it operates on a back-to-back system: trucks go in from Israel and offload within the protective concrete walls of the terminal, then trucks come in from the Gaza end and load up.

Since the start of the latest round of violence, now in its seventh day, Israel's Coordinator of Government Activities in the Territories (COGAT), says it has let in 123 trucks loaded with food, medicine and fuel, including 43 that passed on Tuesday before rockets started to fall.

The rest of the transfer included 16 truckloads of medical equipment "specifically vital equipment, such as medicines, anesthetics and disposable medical equipment", COGAT said.

The main Israeli fortified crossing-point at Erez was opened to permit the exit of 26 patients and their escorts into Israel in order to receive medical treatment, the authority added.

"While Israel is committed to providing continued assistance, it is subject to the limitations created by continuous rocket fire and attacks on the part of Hamas and other extremists groups in Gaza," COGAT said.

"Rocket attacks endanger the staff manning the crossing and often hinder or prevent the transfer of goods," it added.

The United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestinian Refugees (UNRWA) says 1.2 million Gazans rely on UNRWA assistance, which enters the territory via Israel.

"UNRWA will continue to provide food aid to more than 800,000 refugees in the Strip. Our schools are providing a place of safe shelter. Our health clinics remain open and ready to bring medical care to the children, the sick, and the elderly," the agency said in its latest update on the crisis.

In relatively normal times about 130 truckloads of aid -- mainly bulk staples -- go through the Kerem Shalom crossing daily.

http://news.yahoo.com/rockets-hold-aid-gaza-israel-124741272.html

mlyonsd
11-21-2012, 05:49 PM
Looks like Hillary threatened to send nudie pictures of herself to both sides.I first read that as 'send nudie pictures of herself of both sides'. *shudder*

mlyonsd
11-21-2012, 05:51 PM
I do, yes. I think there are several things that would put peace on a faster track -- that would be one of them.

You understand that Hamas, therefore, won't do that.If Hamas won't do that I doubt there is anything else the Palestinians could offer that would fast track the process.

The way I see it that is the key.

Iowanian
11-21-2012, 07:29 PM
At some point, you have to wonder why Israel doesn't give blankets of small pox with their aid shipments..........

Direckshun
11-22-2012, 09:35 AM
If Hamas won't do that I doubt there is anything else the Palestinians could offer that would fast track the process.

The Palestinians could vote out Hamas.

But they're not going to do it for no reason. From their perspective, there is currently no reason.

Let's give them a reason.

Direckshun
11-22-2012, 09:36 AM
Welp, the 2012 impending Gaza war was averted.

Anybody want to tell me what was gained by Israel during this episode?

HonestChieffan
11-22-2012, 10:29 AM
Welp, the 2012 impending Gaza war was averted.

Anybody want to tell me what was gained by Israel during this episode?

Are they still getting blasted by Hamas?

ForeverChiefs58
11-22-2012, 10:30 AM
The Palestinians could vote out Hamas.

But they're not going to do it for no reason. From their perspective, there is currently no reason.

Let's give them a reason.

Give them a reason?

Are you for real?

I thought they wanted statehood so bad?

If that isn't reason enough then fuck em. They are lucky to have anything at all.

Most people that continue to start war and lose, don't get anything back, let alone so much. Israel still delivers aid, gives tax money to the PA, and helps the very people who are sworn to their distruckshun.

Of course the other side wouldn't do that, they drag people through the srteets for even being friendly to a jew.

True Irony: The side that is sworn to the others destruction is the flag you have as your avatar, all while you try and argue why your side really just wants peace.

ForeverChiefs58
11-22-2012, 10:42 AM
Are they still getting blasted by Hamas?

Hamas still firing rockets. Yeah that lasted a long time. Meanwhile, Israel keeps showing restraint.

This isn't random. Hamas is wanting to get a response from Israel that kills their citizens. It is why they shoot from schools, mosques, hospitals, houses full of children etc. Even though the blame should fall at the feet of the palesinians, because this is what they want.

So when Israel does respond they can show pictures of people dead and so people feel sorry for them and agree to their demands. This is what they are trying to do before the upcoming vote.

Hopefully, it will backfire and turn against the terrorist supporting assholes.

I think if Israel wants the support of some of the more libral european countries they will hold off on an invasion.

patteeu
11-22-2012, 10:43 AM
The Palestinians could vote out Hamas.

But they're not going to do it for no reason. From their perspective, there is currently no reason.

Let's give them a reason.

They've had reason after reason after reason, but they're still loyal to Hamas.

patteeu
11-22-2012, 10:44 AM
Welp, the 2012 impending Gaza war was averted.

Anybody want to tell me what was gained by Israel during this episode?

Ahmed Jabari isn't wasting anyone's air anymore.

patteeu
11-22-2012, 10:47 AM
Give them a reason?

Are you for real?

I thought they wanted statehood so bad?

If that isn't reason enough then **** em. They are lucky to have anything at all.

Most people that continue to start war and lose, don't get anything back, let alone so much. Israel still delivers aid, gives tax money to the PA, and helps the very people who are sworn to their distruckshun.

Of course the other side wouldn't do that, they drag people through the srteets for even being friendly to a jew.

Good synopsis. I especially agree with your conclusion that they are lucky to have anything at all.

mlyonsd
11-22-2012, 11:41 AM
The Palestinians could vote out Hamas.

But they're not going to do it for no reason. From their perspective, there is currently no reason.

Let's give them a reason.
And Israel buckling to Hamas will give them a reason or make them want to vote them out?

go bowe
11-22-2012, 11:50 AM
And Israel buckling to Hamas will give them a reason or make them want to vote them out?

no, quite the contrary in fact...

hamas in all likelihood staged the whole affair to rekindle support among gazans and it has worked very well...

not negotiating in good faith after/if/when israel makes serious offers that address palestinian concerns is what would drive them out of office (so the theory goes)...

if a settlement is perceived as possible/likely, the majority of palestinians will vote for peace candidates...

but as long as it appears to be impossible, many of them will continue to support hamas as the only option available...

as counterintuitive as it may sound, israel may be better served by using a carrot in this situatioun...

after all, the stick hasn't produced peace in 60 years, why not try something else?

mlyonsd
11-22-2012, 12:05 PM
no, quite the contrary in fact...

hamas in all likelihood staged the whole affair to rekindle support among gazans and it has worked very well...

not negotiating in good faith after/if/when israel makes serious offers that address palestinian concerns is what would drive them out of office (so the theory goes)...

if a settlement is perceived as possible/likely, the majority of palestinians will vote for peace candidates...

but as long as it appears to be impossible, many of them will continue to support hamas as the only option available...

as counterintuitive as it may sound, israel may be better served by using a carrot in this situatioun...

after all, the stick hasn't produced peace in 60 years, why not try something else?
I don't buy it.

Nafman87
11-22-2012, 12:09 PM
Hamas still firing rockets. Yeah that lasted a long time. Meanwhile, Israel keeps showing restraint.

This isn't random. Hamas is wanting to get a response from Israel that kills their citizens. It is why they shoot from schools, mosques, hospitals, houses full of children etc. Even though the blame should fall at the feet of the palesinians, because this is what they want.

So when Israel does respond they can show pictures of people dead and so people feel sorry for them and agree to their demands. This is what they are trying to do before the upcoming vote.

Hopefully, it will backfire and turn against the terrorist supporting assholes.

I think if Israel wants the support of some of the more libral european countries they will hold off on an invasion.

EXACTLY!! You sir a smart man!

stevieray
11-22-2012, 01:38 PM
Hamas still firing rockets. Yeah that lasted a long time. Meanwhile, Israel keeps showing restraint.

This isn't random. Hamas is wanting to get a response from Israel that kills their citizens. It is why they shoot from schools, mosques, hospitals, houses full of children etc. Even though the blame should fall at the feet of the palesinians, because this is what they want.

So when Israel does respond they can show pictures of people dead and so people feel sorry for them and agree to their demands. This is what they are trying to do before the upcoming vote.

Hopefully, it will backfire and turn against the terrorist supporting assholes.

I think if Israel wants the support of some of the more libral european countries they will hold off on an invasion.

:clap:

Direckshun
11-27-2012, 02:35 PM
Britain's in.

Their hesitation was the threat of Mahmoud Abbas using the ICC against Israel.

Abbas has agreed not to bring Israel before the ICC. Therefore, Abbas lands Britain.

Britain will likely bring the rest of Europe with them.

The US and Israel have failed. November 29th is now basically a done deal.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/nov/27/uk-ready-to-back-palestine-statehood

Britain ready to back Palestinian statehood at UN
Mahmoud Abbas pledge not to pursue Israel for war crimes and resumption of peace talks are UK conditions
Ian Black, Middle East editor
Monday 26 November 2012

Britain is prepared to back a key vote recognising Palestinian statehood at the United Nations if Mahmoud Abbas pledges not to pursue Israel for war crimes and to resume peace talks.

Abbas, president of the Palestinian Authority, has called for Britain's backing in part because of its historic responsibility for Palestine. The government has previously refused, citing strong US and Israeli objections and fears of long-term damage to prospects for negotiations.

On Monday night, the government signalled it would change tack and vote yes if the Palestinians modified their application, which is to be debated by the UN general assembly in New York later this week. As a "non-member state", Palestine would have the same status as the Vatican.

Whitehall officials said the Palestinians were now being asked to refrain from applying for membership of the international criminal court or the international court of justice, which could both be used to pursue war crimes charges or other legal claims against Israel.

Abbas is also being asked to commit to an immediate resumption of peace talks "without preconditions" with Israel. The third condition is that the general assembly's resolution does not require the UN security council to follow suit.

The US and Israel have both hinted at possible retaliation if the vote goes ahead. Congress could block payments to the Palestinian Authority and Israel might freeze tax revenues it transfers under the 1993 Oslo agreement or, worse, withdraw from the agreement altogether. It could also annex West Bank settlements. Britain's position is that it wants to reduce the risk that such threats might be implemented and bolster Palestinian moderates.

France has already signalled that it will vote yes on Thursday, and the long-awaited vote is certain to pass as 132 UN members have recognised the state of Palestine. Decisions by Germany, Spain and Britain are still pending and Palestinians would clearly prefer a united EU position as counterweight to the US.

Willian Hague, the foreign secretary, discussed the issue on Monday with Abbas and the French foreign minister, Laurent Fabius, offiicals said.

Palestinian sources said Hillary Clinton, the US secretary of state, raised the issue with Abbas at his Ramallah headquarters last week, shortly before a ceasefire was agreed in the Gaza Strip, as had Tony Blair, the Quartet envoy.

Abbas has been widely seen to have been sidelined by his rivals in the Islamist movement Hamas, as well by his failure to win any concessions from Israel. Abbas, whose remit does not extend beyond the West Bank, hopes a strong yes vote will persuade Israel to return to talks after more than two years.

Officals in Ramallah have opposed surrendering on the ICC issue so it can be used as a bargaining chip in future, but views are thought to be divided. Abbas said at the weekend: "We are going to the UN fully confident in our steps. We will have our rights because you are with us."

Leila Shaid, Palestine's representative to the EU, said: "After everything that has happened in the Arab spring, Britain can't pretend it is in favour of democracy in Libya, Syria and Egypt but accept the Palestinians continuing to live under occupation. As the former colonial power, Britain has a historic responsibility to Palestine. Britain is a very important country in the Middle East, it has extensive trade relations, and David Cameron should know he risks a popular backlash from Arab public opinion if he does not support us."

Palestinians have rejected the claim that they are acting unilaterally, calling the UN path "the ultimate expression of multilateralism". Israel's apparent opposition to unilateralism has not stopped it acting without agreement to build and expand settlements, they say.

Donger
11-27-2012, 02:37 PM
So, this new "Palestinian" state will not include Gaza, right?

Direckshun
11-27-2012, 02:42 PM
So, this new "Palestinian" state will not include Gaza, right?

I'm not entirely sure.

That's a grey area anyway. I mean, the UN will be recognizing the PA, not Hamas.

This is going to be really interesting, to see how Palestine will react to this. PA is making all the right diplomatic moves, for the most part. But Hamas has all the support on the ground, not the PA.

Hamas will have no direct say in what the PA does at the UN, but they could very well have grassroots influence on it.

patteeu
11-27-2012, 02:58 PM
I'm not entirely sure.

That's a grey area anyway. I mean, the UN will be recognizing the PA, not Hamas.

This is going to be really interesting, to see how Palestine will react to this. PA is making all the right diplomatic moves, for the most part. But Hamas has all the support on the ground, not the PA.

Hamas will have no direct say in what the PA does at the UN, but they could very well have grassroots influence on it.

It seems to me that the right diplomatic move would be to negotiate in good faith with Israel and leash your militant dead-enders. The UN has no ability to grant the PA an independent state. Only Israel can do that (unless Egypt or Jordan or some other country wants to offer up some of their territory).

HonestChieffan
11-27-2012, 03:08 PM
Brits have lost all hope.

patteeu
11-27-2012, 03:13 PM
Brits have lost all hope.

America stands nearly alone, but Obama and Direckshun are at the gate.

Direckshun
11-27-2012, 03:21 PM
It seems to me that the right diplomatic move would be to negotiate in good faith with Israel and leash your militant dead-enders.

That's fair and all, but it's quite clear that PA can't do that anymore, if it ever could.

patteeu
11-27-2012, 04:52 PM
That's fair and all, but it's quite clear that PA can't do that anymore, if it ever could.

Then they should offer to work with the Israelis to do it.

Direckshun
11-27-2012, 05:40 PM
Then they should offer to work with the Israelis to do it.

Israel should stop defanging them by stealing their land.

Tell me how Palestinians are going to rally behind an organization that does nothing when Israel steals their land.

The PA has been defanged in the eyes of most Palestinians, and Israel's settlement expansion is directly the reason why.

patteeu
11-27-2012, 05:56 PM
Israel should stop defanging them by stealing their land.

Tell me how Palestinians are going to rally behind an organization that does nothing when Israel steals their land.

The PA has been defanged in the eyes of most Palestinians, and Israel's settlement expansion is directly the reason why.

The amount of land they have has nothing to do with their ability to keep their radicals under control. If you're saying that the PA isn't the legitimate representative of the palestinian people, I agree with that, which makes them poor partners for peace negotiations and the wrong people to which the UN should grant state status.

If it's not the PA, though, the palestinian people need to decide who can represent them and their statehood aspirations. If they're going to choose Hamas, it means they have no interest in a two state solution. If they want peace and a state of their own, they need to pick someone who will marginalize groups like Hamas and Islamic Jihad because those groups are the obstacles to peace, not the Israelis or their settlements.

Direckshun
11-27-2012, 06:32 PM
The amount of land they have has nothing to do with their ability to keep their radicals under control.

It absolutely does.

If it's not the PA, though, the palestinian people need to decide who can represent them and their statehood aspirations. If they're going to choose Hamas, it means they have no interest in a two state solution.

They do have interest in a two-state solution, but they have a more base interest in survival.

Right now, Palestinians believe that Israel wants to wipe them off the map or make them leave Israel.

If they want peace and a state of their own, they need to pick someone who will marginalize groups like Hamas and Islamic Jihad because those groups are the obstacles to peace, not the Israelis or their settlements.

And what should Israel do? Nothing, I'm guessing.

patteeu
11-27-2012, 06:55 PM
It absolutely does.

That's not very convincing. But it doesn't really matter, because there's no interest among palestinians to control their jihadists.

They do have interest in a two-state solution, but they have a more base interest in survival.

Right now, Palestinians believe that Israel wants to wipe them off the map or make them leave Israel.

Israel has it's land and they have a degree of security now. They don't need a two state solution. It's a preference.

The palestinians have neither land nor security. Apparently their preference is for war because if they wanted a two state peace, they could certainly have one. To the extent that they've been convinced by radicals among them or manipulative outsiders that Israel wants to wipe them off the map (despite all of the evidence to the contrary), that's misguided and unfortunate, but it's not on Israel.

And what should Israel do? Nothing, I'm guessing.

Israel should continue to seek peace as they've been doing for decades. They've already proven their bona fides through land-for-peace swaps with Egypt and Jordan and through generous land for peace offers to the palestinians like the one Yasser Arafat rejected in 2000. It's time for the palestinians to prove that they want peace by rejecting the death-to-Israel ideology of Hamas.

Direckshun
11-27-2012, 07:04 PM
The palestinians have neither land nor security. Apparently their preference is for war because if they wanted a two state peace, they could certainly have one. To the extent that they've been convinced by radicals among them or manipulative outsiders that Israel wants to wipe them off the map (despite all of the evidence to the contrary), that's misguided and unfortunate, but it's not on Israel.

Put yourself in Palestinian shoes.

Your land is taken from you constantly. You are forcibly kept with 1.5 million of your brothers and sisters in a malnourished shanty town with no ability to make commerce with anybody in the outside world. You live in poverty, you've either been terrorized by Israelis or know others who have been, and many of your sisters and children are slain by Israeli attacks, retaliations and instigations alike.

You only see things from your Republican-colored glasses, where Israel can do no wrong. That's the only way you can come to assessments like the one I just bolded.

You don't see that Israel is becoming an apartheid state that is isolating itself from the planet diplomatically. And you don't see the historical proof of human history that oppression begets extremism.

You just expect elemental forces of humanity to undo themselves.

It's not going to happen. Israel is going to have to give, or Palestine will be wiped off the map, potentially taking Israel with it.

Direckshun
11-27-2012, 07:05 PM
Israel should continue to seek peace as they've been doing for decades. They've already proven their bona fides through land-for-peace swaps with Egypt and Jordan and through generous land for peace offers to the palestinians like the one Yasser Arafat rejected in 2000. It's time for the palestinians to prove that they want peace by rejecting the death-to-Israel ideology of Hamas.

What should Israel be doing differently, pat?

patteeu
11-27-2012, 09:24 PM
Put yourself in Palestinian shoes.

Your land is taken from you constantly. You are forcibly kept with 1.5 million of your brothers and sisters in a malnourished shanty town with no ability to make commerce with anybody in the outside world. You live in poverty, you've either been terrorized by Israelis or know others who have been, and many of your sisters and children are slain by Israeli attacks, retaliations and instigations alike.

You only see things from your Republican-colored glasses, where Israel can do no wrong. That's the only way you can come to assessments like the one I just bolded.

You don't see that Israel is becoming an apartheid state that is isolating itself from the planet diplomatically. And you don't see the historical proof of human history that oppression begets extremism.

You just expect elemental forces of humanity to undo themselves.

It's not going to happen. Israel is going to have to give, or Palestine will be wiped off the map, potentially taking Israel with it.

I can definitely see how a palestinian might convince himself that he's the victim here. I have the luxury of being able to look at it more objectively though. It has nothing to do with Republican colored glasses.

patteeu
11-27-2012, 09:26 PM
What should Israel be doing differently, pat?

They should probably have gone into Gaza and rooted out as much of Hamas as possible before agreeing to a cease fire.

Oh Snap
11-28-2012, 08:52 PM
They're not in their backyard. Israel withdrew completely from Gaza. You can't possibly consider the entire territory of Israel to be the palestinians' backyard do you? Do you consider the state of Missouri to be unlawfully occupied American Indian territory?

Conditions inside the Gaza have never been worse then they are right now. Israel routinely limits aid to Gaza, and essentially has Gaza and the West Bank on 24/7 lock down. Israel has created a humanitarian crisis within Palestine. The Palestinians are doing exactly what anyone would be doing in their situation. (fighting back against Israeli aggression)

It seems no one here really understands the history behind the situation. The fact is, Israel created Hamas as a proxy to overthrow the Palestinian authority. This essentially happened, but Hamas turned on Israel as a result. So I don't even feel sorry for Israel in that regard.

And it was Israel who fired the first shots in the 1948 war where they basically committed genocide against Arab Palestinians in order to make their Zionist State. The Arabs have not forgotten Israels sins in the early days, and the War/conflict between the two states has essentially been ongoing since the late 1940's. Anyone saying otherwise doesn't know the history. So either read up on it, or stfu about it!

Oh Snap
11-28-2012, 09:03 PM
Then they should offer to work with the Israelis to do it.

The Palestinians have offered to return to negotiations with the Israelis under condition that Israel halt all of its settlement expansion into the Palestinian West Bank. Israel routinely ignores this plea, and basically tells the PA to omit to Israels demands that the PA recognize Israel as a state. No negotiation. Meanwhile, Israel continues to infringe upon PA land by expanding its illegal settlements in the West Bank. This does nothing for peace, as it further creates hate and animosity towards the Zionist state of Israel.

So long as Israel continues its barbaric treatment of the Palestinians, there will be no peace. Israel is essentially creating the instability (just as they did by creating Hamas) to create the current predicament it now faces. The US would do well to turn its back on this unstable state and avoid entangling alliances in the future.

ForeverChiefs58
11-28-2012, 09:10 PM
Conditions inside the Gaza have never been worse then they are right now. Israel routinely limits aid to Gaza, and essentially has Gaza and the West Bank on 24/7 lock down. Israel has created a humanitarian crisis within Palestine. The Palestinians are doing exactly what anyone would be doing in their situation. (fighting back against Israeli aggression)

It seems no one here really understands the history behind the situation. The fact is, Israel created Hamas as a proxy to overthrow the Palestinian authority. This essentially happened, but Hamas turned on Israel as a result. So I don't even feel sorry for Israel in that regard.

And it was Israel who fired the first shots in the 1948 war where they basically committed genocide against Arab Palestinians in order to make their Zionist State. The Arabs have not forgotten Israels sins in the early days, and the War/conflict between the two states has essentially been ongoing since the late 1940's. Anyone saying otherwise doesn't know the history. So either read up on it, or stfu about it!


Its just too bad you are so wrong.

mnchiefsguy
11-28-2012, 09:15 PM
Conditions inside the Gaza have never been worse then they are right now. Israel routinely limits aid to Gaza, and essentially has Gaza and the West Bank on 24/7 lock down. Israel has created a humanitarian crisis within Palestine. The Palestinians are doing exactly what anyone would be doing in their situation. (fighting back against Israeli aggression)

It seems no one here really understands the history behind the situation. The fact is, Israel created Hamas as a proxy to overthrow the Palestinian authority. This essentially happened, but Hamas turned on Israel as a result. So I don't even feel sorry for Israel in that regard.

And it was Israel who fired the first shots in the 1948 war where they basically committed genocide against Arab Palestinians in order to make their Zionist State. The Arabs have not forgotten Israels sins in the early days, and the War/conflict between the two states has essentially been ongoing since the late 1940's. Anyone saying otherwise doesn't know the history. So either read up on it, or stfu about it!

As I recall, only one side is advocating genocide of the other. Here is a hint: It is not Israel.

ForeverChiefs58
11-28-2012, 09:32 PM
Conditions inside the Gaza have never been worse then they are right now. Israel routinely limits aid to Gaza, and essentially has Gaza and the West Bank on 24/7 lock down. Israel has created a humanitarian crisis within Palestine. The Palestinians are doing exactly what anyone would be doing in their situation. (fighting back against Israeli aggression)

It seems no one here really understands the history behind the situation. The fact is, Israel created Hamas as a proxy to overthrow the Palestinian authority. This essentially happened, but Hamas turned on Israel as a result. So I don't even feel sorry for Israel in that regard.

And it was Israel who fired the first shots in the 1948 war where they basically committed genocide against Arab Palestinians in order to make their Zionist State. The Arabs have not forgotten Israels sins in the early days, and the War/conflict between the two states has essentially been ongoing since the late 1940's. Anyone saying otherwise doesn't know the history. So either read up on it, or stfu about it!

Great advice. Do you have any access to books not written by Hamas or other militant groups?

Try to find books that don't refer to the US as "The Great Satan"

I think that is the best place for you to start.

Oh Snap
11-28-2012, 10:29 PM
Its just too bad you are so wrong.

I'm sorry, I don't get my news from Fox. How exactly am I wrong?

As I recall, only one side is advocating genocide of the other. Here is a hint: It is not Israel.

"As I recall"... That is your problem. You are hardly qualified to give your opinion on this. If you actually knew what you were talking about, you would know that Israel committed genocide against Palestinian arabs in 1948 and continues to commit genocide today through increased expansion into the West Bank.

Israel has created its own hell...and the crazy thing is, it has the US convinced that we somehow need to defend them. Israel is incredibly insignificant in all honesty. Our alliance with them is heavily one sided, and does more to hurt the US than it does to help.

Great advice. Do you have any access to books not written by Hamas or other militant groups?

Try to find books that don't refer to the US as "The Great Satan"

I think that is the best place for you to start.

This is a typical knee jerk response by someone who doesn't know a thing about the discussion. The facts have already been outlined, feel free to make arguments against my post, not general ad hominems where you skirt the entire debate. Israel is far from the peaceful angel degenerates like you make it out to be.

stevieray
11-28-2012, 10:31 PM
:rolleyes:

Oh Snap, who built the Temple Mount?

..the Arabs in "palestine" are lucky Israel hasn't wiped them off the map.

Oh Snap
11-28-2012, 10:33 PM
:rolleyes:

Oh Snap, who built the Temple Mount?



No one that is alive today.

..the Arabs in "palestine" are lucky Israel hasn't wiped them off the map.

They're trying to.

stevieray
11-28-2012, 10:36 PM
No one that is alive today.

oooh boy, that settles it...sqautters must've done it.

how many thousands of rockets fired into Israel? this year alone?

Oh Snap
11-28-2012, 10:50 PM
oooh boy, that settles it...sqautters must've done it.

how many thousands of rockets fired into Israel? this year alone?

I just knew I was bound to run into a bible thumper. Needless to say, your reasoning is completely void of any logic and rational.

And how many palestinians died and were displaced by Israel expansion into the West bank? How many people died as a result of Israeli airstrikes into heavily populated areas? When people are pushed, they tend to fight back. Those rockets (which are basically large home made fireworks, not missiles) pale in comparison to the damage an Israeli JDAM inflicts (thanks to the US).

stevieray
11-28-2012, 10:57 PM
I just knew I was bound to run into a bible thumper. Needless to say, your reasoning is completely void of any logic and rational.

And how many palestinians died and were displaced by Israel expansion into the West bank? How many people died as a result of Israeli airstrikes into heavily populated areas? When people are pushed, they tend to fight back. Those rockets (which are basically large home made fireworks, not missiles) pale in comparison to the damage an Israeli JDAM inflicts (thanks to the US).
bible thumper? is that supposed to hurt? LMAO

...and I knew you were going to be intellectually dishonest. it's like talking to a child...always trying to blame someone else for their own actions.

those poor arabs, surrounded by billions of dollars, hiidng behind children, putting them in danger, BUT IT"S NOT THEIR FAULT.

patteeu
11-28-2012, 11:10 PM
Conditions inside the Gaza have never been worse then they are right now. Israel routinely limits aid to Gaza, and essentially has Gaza and the West Bank on 24/7 lock down. Israel has created a humanitarian crisis within Palestine. The Palestinians are doing exactly what anyone would be doing in their situation. (fighting back against Israeli aggression)

Hamas and other palestinian militants created the humanitarian crisis in the territories. Before that, it was the neighboring Arab states who made sure that the refugee problem festered.

It seems no one here really understands the history behind the situation. The fact is, Israel created Hamas as a proxy to overthrow the Palestinian authority. This essentially happened, but Hamas turned on Israel as a result. So I don't even feel sorry for Israel in that regard.

You fit right in then. Israel didn't create Hamas.

And it was Israel who fired the first shots in the 1948 war where they basically committed genocide against Arab Palestinians in order to make their Zionist State. The Arabs have not forgotten Israels sins in the early days, and the War/conflict between the two states has essentially been ongoing since the late 1940's. Anyone saying otherwise doesn't know the history. So either read up on it, or stfu about it!

No, Israel didn't start the 1948 war. Many palestinians were forced out of the newly created state of Israel and many more fled of their own accord. There was no genocide. You're about ignorant about this subject as my dog is about nuclear physics.

mnchiefsguy
11-28-2012, 11:13 PM
I'm sorry, I don't get my news from Fox. How exactly am I wrong?



"As I recall"... That is your problem. You are hardly qualified to give your opinion on this. If you actually knew what you were talking about, you would know that Israel committed genocide against Palestinian arabs in 1948 and continues to commit genocide today through increased expansion into the West Bank.

Israel has created its own hell...and the crazy thing is, it has the US convinced that we somehow need to defend them. Israel is incredibly insignificant in all honesty. Our alliance with them is heavily one sided, and does more to hurt the US than it does to help.



This is a typical knee jerk response by someone who doesn't know a thing about the discussion. The facts have already been outlined, feel free to make arguments against my post, not general ad hominems where you skirt the entire debate. Israel is far from the peaceful angel degenerates like you make it out to be.


Israel has no mention of genocide in its constitution. Hamas cannot say the same about it's charter.

Your entire post is full of stupid and fail.

patteeu
11-28-2012, 11:13 PM
I'm sorry, I don't get my news from Fox. How exactly am I wrong?



"As I recall"... That is your problem. You are hardly qualified to give your opinion on this. If you actually knew what you were talking about, you would know that Israel committed genocide against Palestinian arabs in 1948 and continues to commit genocide today through increased expansion into the West Bank.

Israel has created its own hell...and the crazy thing is, it has the US convinced that we somehow need to defend them. Israel is incredibly insignificant in all honesty. Our alliance with them is heavily one sided, and does more to hurt the US than it does to help.



This is a typical knee jerk response by someone who doesn't know a thing about the discussion. The facts have already been outlined, feel free to make arguments against my post, not general ad hominems where you skirt the entire debate. Israel is far from the peaceful angel degenerates like you make it out to be.

Genocide might be the right solution. It's about the only thing Israel hasn't tried (besides national suicide). I think Israel should give the palestinians a little more time to embrace civilization though.

Speaking of genocide, I take it you're upset that we prevented your folks from finishing the job back in the '40s.

Oh Snap
11-28-2012, 11:53 PM
bible thumper? is that supposed to hurt? LMAO

No, but it does hurt your credibility when you try to insensate that it belongs to modern day Israel today; solemnly because it is in the same region where ancient Israel used to exist.

...and I knew you were going to be intellectually dishonest. it's like talking to a child...always trying to blame someone else for their own actions.

Cool story bro, but note the following; You didn't actually debate anything I said. You just interjected pointless, moot dribble that has absolutely nothing to do with anything I said.

those poor arabs, surrounded by billions of dollars, hiidng behind children, putting them in danger, BUT IT"S NOT THEIR FAULT.

I've never once condoned the actions of Hamas, nor the PA. However, I can't necessarily blame them given the current affairs between modern day Israel and Palestine.

Hamas and other palestinian militants created the humanitarian crisis in the territories. Before that, it was the neighboring Arab states who made sure that the refugee problem festered.

You fit right in then. Israel didn't create Hamas.

Yeah, you really don't know what you're talking about...How Israel Helped Create Hamas (http://middleeast.about.com/od/israelandpalestine/a/me090126.htm)

No, Israel didn't start the 1948 war.

Oh yeah? Can you tell me what the 1947-1948 war was over?

Many palestinians were forced out of the newly created state of Israel and many more fled of their own accord. There was no genocide. You're about ignorant about this subject as my dog is about nuclear physics.

Says the man who believes in an imaginary being who floats around in the sky and grants wishes if you "just wish hard enough." You probably think that the world is 6,000 years old too, dont ya? I know your type well....

Here is an IDF vet who tells his tale of what happened and how the IDF committed genocide in Nakba around 1948.

KS4OXOom_vk

Is he ignorant too since his claim is counter to yours?!?!

Israel has no mention of genocide in its constitution. Hamas cannot say the same about it's charter.

Your entire post is full of stupid and fail.

Yea, because words speak louder than actions since when?

Genocide might be the right solution. It's about the only thing Israel hasn't tried (besides national suicide). I think Israel should give the palestinians a little more time to embrace civilization though.

Speaking of genocide, I take it you're upset that we prevented your folks from finishing the job back in the '40s.

That was a bit uncalled for...

ForeverChiefs58
11-29-2012, 01:17 AM
Here this is what you should have learned:

The Arabs made clear they would go to war to prevent the establishment of a Jewish state. The chairman of the Arab Higher Committee said the Arabs would “fight for every inch of their country.” Two days later, the holy men of Al-Azhar University in Cairo called on the Muslim world to proclaim a jihad (holy war) against the Jews. Jamal Husseini, the Arab Higher Committee’s spokesman, had told the UN prior to the partition vote the Arabs would drench “the soil of our beloved country with the last drop of our blood..."

Husseini’s prediction began to come true almost immediately after the UN adopted the partition resolution on November 29, 1947. The Arabs declared a protest strike and instigated riots that claimed the lives of 62 Jews and 32 Arabs. Violence continued to escalate through the end of the year.

The first large-scale assaults began on January 9, 1948, when approximately 1,000 Arabs attacked Jewish communities in northern Palestine. By February, the British said so many Arabs had infiltrated they lacked the forces to run them back.

In the first phase of the war, lasting from November 29, 1947, until April 1, 1948, the Palestinian Arabs took the offensive, with help from volunteers from neighboring countries. The Jews suffered severe casualties and passage along most of their major roadways was disrupted.

On April 26, 1948, Transjordan’s King Abdullah said:


All our efforts to find a peaceful solution to the Palestine problem have failed. The only way left for us is war. I will have the pleasure and honor to save Palestine.

On May 4, 1948, the Arab Legion attacked Kfar Etzion. The defenders drove them back, but the Legion returned a week later. After two days, the ill-equipped and outnumbered settlers were overwhelmed. Many defenders were massacred after they had surrendered. This was prior to the invasion by the regular Arab armies that followed Israel’s declaration of independence.

The UN blamed the Arabs for the violence. The UN Palestine Commission, which was never permitted by the Arabs or British to go to Palestine to implement the resolution, reported to the Security Council on February 16, 1948, that “powerful Arab interests, both inside and outside Palestine, are defying the resolution of the General Assembly and are engaged in a deliberate effort to alter by force the settlement envisaged therein.”

The Arabs were blunt in taking responsibility for the war. Jamal Husseini told the Security Council on April 16, 1948:


The representative of the Jewish Agency told us yesterday that they were not the attackers, that the Arabs had begun the fighting. We did not deny this. We told the whole world that we were going to fight.

The British commander of Jordan’s Arab Legion, John Bagot Glubb admitted:


Early in January, the first detachments of the Arab Liberation Army began to infiltrate into Palestine from Syria. Some came through Jordan and even through Amman . . . ​They were in reality to strike the first blow in the ruin of the Arabs of Palestine.

Despite the disadvantages in numbers, organization and weapons, the Jews began to take the initiative in the weeks from April 1 until the declaration of independence on May 14. The Haganah captured several major towns including Tiberias and Haifa, and temporarily opened the road to Jerusalem.

The partition resolution was never suspended or rescinded. Thus, Israel, the Jewish State in Palestine, was born on May 14, as the British finally left the country. Five Arab armies (Egypt, Syria, Transjordan, Lebanon and Iraq) immediately invaded Israel. Their intentions were declared by Abd Al-Rahman Azzam Pasha, Secretary-General of the Arab League: “It will be a war of annihilation. It will be a momentous massacre in history that will be talked about like the massacres of the Mongols or the Crusades.”


The United States, the Soviet Union and most other states recognized Israel soon after it declared independence on May 14, 1948, and immediately condemned the Arabs for their aggression. The United States urged a resolution charging the Arabs with breach of the peace.

Soviet delegate Andrei Gromyko told the Security Council, May 29, 1948:


This is not the first time that the Arab states, which organized the invasion of Palestine, have ignored a decision of the Security Council or of the General Assembly. The USSR delegation deems it essential that the council should state its opinion more clearly and more firmly with regard to this attitude of the Arab states toward decisions of the Security Council.

On July 15, the Security Council threatened to cite the Arab governments for aggression under the UN Charter. By this time, the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) had succeeded in stopping the Arab offensive and the initial phase of the fighting ended.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths3/MF1948.html

ForeverChiefs58
11-29-2012, 01:26 AM
Learn more

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/nutshell/conflict_2.html

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/nutshell/nutshell3.html

patteeu
11-29-2012, 08:21 AM
Yeah, you really don't know what you're talking about...How Israel Helped Create Hamas (http://middleeast.about.com/od/israelandpalestine/a/me090126.htm)

First you said "Israel created Hamas". Now you're saying "Israel helped create Hamas". Pretty soon you'll be saying, "Well, technically, they didn't create Hamas, but they used them as a counter to the PLO which had the effect of increasing their stature." It's just a dumb concept from the start. That kind of braindead leap of logic will lead to future Snaps saying that Israel created Fatah (who Israel didn't create but who they helped in an effort to undermine more militant groups like Hamas and Islamic Jihad). It's the same kind of stupidity that leads people to say that we created al Qaeda or Saddam Hussein.

Oh yeah? Can you tell me what the 1947-1948 war was over?

Yes, but since ForeverChiefs58 already covered it, I'll leave it at that.

Says the man who believes in an imaginary being who floats around in the sky and grants wishes if you "just wish hard enough." You probably think that the world is 6,000 years old too, dont ya? I know your type well....

You're a huge joke. You're as wrong here as you've been about everything else.

Here is an IDF vet who tells his tale of what happened and how the IDF committed genocide in Nakba around 1948.

Is he ignorant too since his claim is counter to yours?!?!

His claim isn't counter to mine. It lines up perfectly with it. Did you even watch that video? What he's describing is the displacement of the palestinian population, not their extermination. I would think that a guy sporting the flag in your avatar would know what the word "genocide" means.

BTW, "Nakba" was an event, not a place.

That was a bit uncalled for...

Uncalled for, or untrue?

Direckshun
11-29-2012, 09:24 AM
I don't know about the whole creation business, but Israel embraces policy that actively empowers Hamas amongst their own people.

If you want to get Hamas out of the way, you must embrace policy that gets them out of the way.

All Netanyahu's done is empower them.

mnchiefsguy
11-29-2012, 10:14 AM
I don't know about the whole creation business, but Israel embraces policy that actively empowers Hamas amongst their own people.

If you want to get Hamas out of the way, you must embrace policy that gets them out of the way.

All Netanyahu's done is empower them.

Yeah, because defending your nation against a terrorist group that targets women and child is such a horrible policy.

Do you really think Hamas would stop launching rockets if Israel did a 180 on their current policies?

Direckshun
11-29-2012, 11:59 AM
Yeah, because defending your nation against a terrorist group that targets women and child is such a horrible policy.

I don't know how this is a response to my post.

mnchiefsguy
11-29-2012, 12:36 PM
I don't know how this is a response to my post.

I noticed that once again you fail to answer a direct question posed to you.

So I will ask again:

Do you really think Hamas would stop launching rockets if Israel did a 180 on their current policies?

ForeverChiefs58
11-29-2012, 02:03 PM
I don't know about the whole creation business, but Israel embraces policy that actively empowers Hamas amongst their own people.

If you want to get Hamas out of the way, you must embrace policy that gets them out of the way.

All Netanyahu's done is empower them.

You think Israel policy should be to just bend over and take it from groups sworn to her annihlation?

To not fight back or try and stop it, becaue the people who vote for terrorism and cheer in the streets for death might suffer from it?

I really don't get why you don't place the blame for the conditions on the shoulders of the people who actually caused it? Without the arabs constant refusal and policy of no, no, no, the palestinians would be celebrating their anniversary and might actually have prosperity.

Why do you blame Israel but not hold contempt for Egypt, Jordan or the many other palestinian leaders who should shoulder blame?

Unfortunately, You don't hold responsible the actions that have caused way more misery and death for the palestinian people and an even bigger space between peace.

Instead you only point fingers at the ones seeking actual peace from the very beginning, and look like Bahgdad Bob dismissing the actions of the ones to actual blame.

Donger
11-29-2012, 02:52 PM
I don't know about the whole creation business, but Israel embraces policy that actively empowers Hamas amongst their own people.

If you want to get Hamas out of the way, you must embrace policy that gets them out of the way.

All Netanyahu's done is empower them.

What are you talking about here? Just the settlements in the West Bank, or would you add some other things to the list?

ForeverChiefs58
11-29-2012, 02:56 PM
Here is another part of history that anger should be directed at the leaders of the self inflicted pro-palestinians whose rejection has cost the people:


The Peel Commission in 1937 concluded the only logical solution to resolving the contradictory aspirations of the Jews and Arabs was to partition Palestine into separate Jewish and Arab states. The Arabs rejected the plan because it forced them to accept the creation of a Jewish state, and required some Palestinians to live under “Jewish domination.” The Zionists opposed the Peel Plan’s boundaries because they would have been confined to 1,900 out of the 10,310 square miles remaining in Palestine. Nevertheless, the Zionists decided to negotiate with the British, while the Arabs refused to consider any compromises.

In 1939, the British White Paper called for the establishment of an Arab state in Palestine within 10 years, and for limiting Jewish immigration to no more than 75,000 over the following five years. Afterward, no one would be allowed in without the consent of the Arab population. Though the Arabs had been granted a concession on Jewish immigration, and been offered independence—the goal of Arab nationalists—they repudiated the White Paper.

With partition, the Palestinians were given a state and the opportunity for self-determination. This too was rejected.

patteeu
11-29-2012, 03:22 PM
I don't know about the whole creation business, but Israel embraces policy that actively empowers Hamas amongst their own people.

If you want to get Hamas out of the way, you must embrace policy that gets them out of the way.

All Netanyahu's done is empower them.

I think you do know about the creation business. I think you know it's :BS:

The rest of your post was more of the same appeasement message you've been preaching all along so we can continue to agree to disagree about that.

Direckshun
11-29-2012, 03:27 PM
I noticed that once again you fail to answer a direct question posed to you.

So I will ask again:

Do you really think Hamas would stop launching rockets if Israel did a 180 on their current policies?

I don't know what that means. A "180" on their current policies?

Be specific.

Direckshun
11-29-2012, 03:29 PM
What are you talking about here? Just the settlements in the West Bank, or would you add some other things to the list?

Israel's been inching to an apartheid state.

Oppression begets extremism, and extremism begets Hamas.

Direckshun
11-29-2012, 03:30 PM
I think you do know about the creation business. I think you know it's :BS:

I think that was my implication, yes.

The rest of your post was more of the same appeasement message you've been preaching all along so we can continue to agree to disagree about that.

'67 borders, agreed upon landswaps, a shared Jerusalem, with a demilitarized Palestine is appeasement?

No doubt the Likud, and thereby the GOP, agree with you.

ForeverChiefs58
11-29-2012, 03:40 PM
I think that was my implication, yes.



'67 borders, agreed upon landswaps, a shared Israel, with a demilitarized Palestine is appeasement?

No doubt the Likud, and thereby the GOP, agree with you.

What does that even mean?

patteeu
11-29-2012, 03:57 PM
What does that even mean?

He's talking about Jerusalem.

What I don't get is how he always glosses over the "agreed upon landswaps" part. As if that agreement is ripe and just waiting to fall off the peace tree.

That's a potential sticking point for Israel as well as the palestinians, but there are a couple of palestinian-only sticking points that he doesn't mention. For one, the palestinians have to accept Israel's existence and secondly, they have to give up on the right of return. I've seen no evidence of a willingness to do either of those things.

Donger
11-29-2012, 03:58 PM
Israel's been inching to an apartheid state.

Oppression begets extremism, and extremism begets Hamas.

Please be a little more specific than that, if you would.

mnchiefsguy
11-29-2012, 04:45 PM
I don't know what that means. A "180" on their current policies?

Be specific.

It was a response to your post that it was Israel's policies that were responsible for Hamas's actions. My question is simple, if Israel was to a 180, i.e. the complete opposite, of what its policies are now, do you actual believe that Hamas would stop sending rockets into Israel.

You are avoiding the question because you know Hamas is hell bent on genocide and will never stop trying to kill every Jew on the planet. Yet you support and defend them constantly.

mnchiefsguy
11-29-2012, 04:52 PM
Please be a little more specific than that, if you would.

I doubt he will, Direckshun does not do specifics. I fail to see the apartheid comparison, as far as I know, arab citizens in Israel have full rights, and can live and practice their religion in peace.

Direckshun
11-29-2012, 05:09 PM
It was a response to your post that it was Israel's policies that were responsible for Hamas's actions. My question is simple, if Israel was to a 180, i.e. the complete opposite, of what its policies are now, do you actual believe that Hamas would stop sending rockets into Israel.

I'm not arguing that Israel do the complete opposite -- I don't even know what that phrase means. I'm arguing that they discontinue many of their policies and adopt smarter policies.

I do think if they did this, Hamas' aggression would decline. I don't know about their militant factions stopping altogether, however. There are terrorist factions in Hamas and I support bringing them to justice.

But I'm not looking to appease Hamas. I'm looking for the Palestinians to give up on them. I think if Israel gives up on a lot of their shit policies, that can happen.

Direckshun
11-29-2012, 05:11 PM
Please be a little more specific than that, if you would.

Seeing as how I've already had this conversation a few times in the past couple days, I'll pass. I'm pretty sure I've already had this conversation in this thread.

ForeverChiefs58
11-29-2012, 05:17 PM
I doubt he will, Direckshun does not do specifics. I fail to see the apartheid comparison, as far as I know, arab citizens in Israel have full rights, and can live and practice their religion in peace.

When someone uses the word that way, it makes me believe he doesn't even have a clue what apartheid even means. I wonder if he accuses Jordan of the same ?

Along with religious freedom, Palestinian Arabs in Jerusalem have unprecedented political rights. Arab residents were given the choice of whether to become Israeli citizens. Most chose to retain their Jordanian citizenship. Moreover, regardless of whether they choose to be an Israeli citizens or not, Jerusalem Arabs are permitted to vote in municipal elections and play a role in the administration of the city.



I also respect the fact that Israel allows for a multifaith climate in which every Friday a thousand Muslims pray openly on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem. When I saw that, I had to ask myself, where in the Islamic world can 1,000 Jews get together and pray in full public view?

Muslim author Irshad Manji

Direckshun
11-29-2012, 05:19 PM
I doubt he will, Direckshun does not do specifics.

This is not the first time that you have demonstrated that you do not read my posts, or if you do, you do not comprehend them.

This thread now has 95 posts by Direckshun in it, And you still do not understand my position.

That is hysterical. How is that even possible.

ForeverChiefs58
11-29-2012, 05:22 PM
I'm not arguing that Israel do the complete opposite -- I don't even know what that phrase means. I'm arguing that they discontinue many of their policies and adopt smarter policies.

I do think if they did this, Hamas' aggression would decline. I don't know about their militant factions stopping altogether, however. There are terrorist factions in Hamas and I support bringing them to justice.

But I'm not looking to appease Hamas. I'm looking for the Palestinians to give up on them. I think if Israel gives up on a lot of their shit policies, that can happen.

No. The entire org from top to bottom is sworn to Israel's annihilation. You have a hard time getting that.

Direckshun
11-29-2012, 05:23 PM
It's done.

138 to 9, with 41 abstains.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/11/29/world/meast/palestinian-united-nations/index.html

U.N. approves Palestinian 'observer state' bid
By David Ariosto and Michael Pearson, CNN
updated 5:50 PM EST, Thu November 29, 2012

New York (CNN) -- The United Nations General Assembly on Thursday endorsed an upgraded U.N. status for the Palestinian Authority, despite intense opposition from the United States and Israel.

The resolution elevates their status from "non-member observer entity" to "non-member observer state," the same category as the Vatican, which Palestinians hope will provide new leverage in their dealings with Israel.

Its leaders had been working with dozens of supporting nations to develop a formal draft, enlisting the backing of European countries such as France and Spain.

The vote was 138 delegates in favor of the measure, nine against and 41 abstentions, including Germany.

Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas said the move, which many call symbolic, represents a "last chance to save the two-state solution."

It comes on the heels of an eight-day conflict that raged between Israel and Hamas fighters, where a series of airstrikes and rocket launches drew international attention and threatened regional stability.

"We did not come here seeking to delegitimize a state established years ago, and that is Israel; rather we came to affirm the legitimacy of the state that must now achieve its independence, and that is Palestine," he said.

But Israel's U.N. ambassador Ron Prosor said the move largely ignores the specifics of longstanding issues, such as settlements in disputed lands, and cannot substitute for direct negotiations between Jerusalem and Ramallah.

This resolution "doesn't pursue peace," Prosor said, criticizing Abbas for being unable to represent the Gaza Strip, where a Hamas-controlled government presides.

"It pushes it backwards," he said.

The effort stalled last year when it became apparent that the bid could not get the necessary support in the Security Council. Observer state status does not require Security Council approval, unlike full membership recognition.

The observer status resolution needs only a majority of the U.N.'s 193 members to approve.

The United States and Israel have remained steadfast in their opposition, saying the move will not advance the cause of Middle East peace.

U.S. Ambassador to the U.N. Susan Rice said American leaders could not support a measure that circumvents direct talks and cautioned that Thursday's decision did "not establish Palestine as a state."

Rice urged both sides to the resume direct negotiations without preconditions.

"Israel is prepared to live in peace with the Palestinian state," Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said Thursday. "But for peace to endure, Israel's security must be protected, the Palestinians must recognize the Jewish state and they must be prepared to end the conflict with Israel once and for all."

Israeli government spokesman Mark Regev called the resolution "political theater."

But Palestinian leaders have said they had the right to go to the U.N. because Israel failed to comply with agreements signed more than two decades ago.

"It's about a contract. Our contract is that in five years, we should have concluded the treaty of peace and all core issues. This did not happen, and we're talking about 20 years later. And going to the U.N. is not a unilateral step," Palestinian Authority chief negotiator Saeb Erakat said in September.

The last round of negotiations between Israel and the Palestinian Authority was in 2010.

Erakat said the new status would eliminate Israeli justifications for building settlements in the disputed areas of East Jerusalem and the West Bank.

But Israeli officials disagreed.

"No decision by the U.N. can break the 4,000-year-old bond between the people of Israel and the land of Israel," Netanyahu said.

Direckshun
11-29-2012, 05:25 PM
Pretty good rundown.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/29/us-palestinians-statehood-qa-idUSBRE8AS1HB20121129

What's all the fuss about a Palestinian U.N. upgrade?
By Louis Charbonneau
Thu Nov 29, 2012 5:29pm EST

The Palestinian Authority is expected to win an upgrade of its observer status at the United Nations on Thursday from "entity" to "non-member state," which would amount to implicit U.N. recognition of the sovereign state of Palestine.

Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas has been leading the campaign to win support for a U.N. General Assembly resolution raising its status. The move comes on the heels of an eight-day conflict this month between Israel and Islamists in the Gaza Strip, who are pledged to Israel's destruction and oppose his efforts toward a negotiated peace.

Following are questions and answers about the Palestinian move on Thursday - the 65th anniversary of the U.N. vote to partition Palestine into separate Jewish and Arab states - and what it means for the 4.3 million Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

WHAT IS NON-MEMBER STATE STATUS?

The Palestinian Authority is currently considered an "entity," not a state at the United Nations. If the resolution is approved by the U.N. General Assembly as expected, that status will change to "non-member state," like the Vatican.

Switzerland also had non-member state status until it joined the United Nations as a full voting member 10 years ago.

Recognition as a non-member state will have a certain symbolic value, giving the Palestinians a higher profile in terms of speaking order during U.N. meetings. But they will still be unable to vote during General Assembly sessions.

The change will also have important legal implications.

The Palestinians will be able to join the International Criminal Court (ICC) and some specialized U.N. bodies like the International Atomic Energy Agency.

CAN THE U.N. RECOGNIZE PALESTINE AS A SOVEREIGN STATE?

The United Nations cannot grant countries recognition. That is something that is done on a bilateral basis. However, the granting of non-member state status to the Palestinian Authority does acknowledge that the majority of U.N. member states do recognize Palestine as an independent state.

Traditionally, universal recognition of state sovereignty is accompanied by full membership in the United Nations. That is something the Palestinians sought last year with much fanfare but failed to achieve because the United States used the threat of a veto in the Security Council to block the Palestinian U.N. membership application.

HOW MANY VOTES DO THE PALESTINIANS NEED?

The Palestinian Authority needs a simple majority for the resolution to pass. Assuming all U.N. member states are present and none is barred from voting for non-payment of dues, the Palestinians will need the support of 97 of the 193 members.

The Palestinians say that 132 countries recognize an independent state of Palestine. They are hoping for over 130 'yes' votes from the assembly and a strong show of support from Europe. U.N. diplomats say it may achieve that.

WILL ANYTHING CHANGE ON THE GROUND AFTER A YES VOTE?‬‬‬‬‬‬

There will be no immediate changes. The West Bank will remain under Israeli occupation and settlement building will no doubt continue. However, the Palestinians say the change in status will alter the rules of the game, arguing that the vote means Israel can no longer call the Palestinian Territories "disputed" land. Instead, the land will have been clearly designated as belonging to the Palestinian people, even if the final boundaries still have to be determined.

The same applies to the Hamas-ruled Gaza Strip. The Palestinian Authority has virtually no influence in the 25-mile-long (40-km-long) coastal enclave where 1.6 million Palestinians live.

WILL ISRAEL AND THE UNITED STATES RETALIATE?

The United States and Israel oppose the Palestinian move, saying direct peace talks are the only way to achieve statehood.

Israel has threatened the Palestinians with retaliation for seeking a U.N. status upgrade. It has suggested that it could withhold some taxes and customs duties it collects on behalf of the Palestinian Authority.

But in the wake of the latest Gaza conflict, Israel seems reluctant to reveal itself as diplomatically isolated. It has toned down threats of retaliation in the face of wide international support for the initiative, notably among its European allies.

Israel may opt for harsh retaliation if the Palestinians file complaints against the Jewish state at the ICC, which U.N. diplomats say is Israel's main concern at the moment.

The United States has also threatened to withhold financial aid to the Palestinians. If they join any specialized U.N. agencies, Congress will likely seek to cut off U.S. funding to those agencies in accordance with U.S. law.

The United States, which pays 22 percent of the regular U.N. budget, is the biggest financial contributor to the world body.

WHAT ABOUT PEACE TALKS?

Abbas has said he will be ready to revive moribund Israeli-Palestinian peace talks as soon as the U.N. vote is over. That suggests he is prepared to drop a pre-condition that all Israeli settlement building in the West Bank and East Jerusalem should be halted before negotiations can resume.

While a number of EU states have applauded this shift in stance, Israel and the United States say that the Palestinian U.N. move will undermine efforts to revive the talks.

The Middle East peace process has been stalled for two years, mainly over Israeli settlements in the West Bank, which have expanded despite being deemed illegal by most of the world.

Many Western diplomats complain about the timing of the Palestinian move, which comes weeks after U.S. President Barack Obama's re-election. They say the Palestinians have not given Obama time to push for new peace talks with Israel.

But the diplomats also say that the Palestinian move is no excuse to scrap peace talks. The resolution calls for an immediate resumption of Israeli-Palestinian negotiations.

ForeverChiefs58
11-29-2012, 05:29 PM
I don't get why they don't put Palestine in Jordan where it should be

Direckshun
11-29-2012, 05:30 PM
I'd like to locate a list of the countries that voted, and how. Can anybody dig that up?

mnchiefsguy
11-29-2012, 05:31 PM
This is not the first time that you have demonstrated that you do not read my posts, or if you do, you do not comprehend them.

This thread now has 95 posts by Direckshun in it, And you still do not understand my position.

That is hysterical. How is that even possible.

No, I read and comprehend them...you type a lot, but say very little. When anyone ever asks you a direct, simple question, you immediately avoid it, mis-direct it, or give some answer that is not relevant.

Just because you have a large number of posts, does not mean you have actually said anything.

As you so commonly say, swing and a miss.

mnchiefsguy
11-29-2012, 05:32 PM
I'd like to locate a list of the countries that voted, and how. Can anybody dig that up?

Here are the countries that voted no, according to your revered Huffington Post:

Voting "no" Wednesday were Israel, the United States and Canada, joined by the Czech Republic, Panama and several Pacific island nations: Marshall Islands, Micronesia, Nauru and Palau. The Pacific nations typically support the U.S. and Israel at the U.N.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/29/countries-that-voted-against-palestine-un_n_2214376.html?utm_hp_ref=world

ForeverChiefs58
11-29-2012, 05:36 PM
Direcshun do you acknowledge Jordanian apartheid policies?

How do you feel about Palestine in Jordan?

Direckshun
11-29-2012, 05:38 PM
No, I read and comprehend them...you type a lot, but say very little. When anyone ever asks you a direct, simple question, you immediately avoid it, mis-direct it, or give some answer that is not relevant.

Honestly, you're just wrong. I don't think any of the other frequent pro-Israel participants in this thread would agree with you that I "say very little" substantially on this topic.

If you honestly can't comprehend my position on Palestine a hundred posts later, well...

Direckshun
11-29-2012, 05:39 PM
The Pacific nations typically support the U.S. and Israel at the U.N.

Weird.

I wonder why. Trade?

mnchiefsguy
11-29-2012, 05:46 PM
Honestly, you're just wrong. I don't think any of the other frequent pro-Israel participants in this thread would agree with you that I "say very little" substantially on this topic.

If you honestly can't comprehend my position on Palestine a hundred posts later, well...

I comprehend your position your position perfectly well. You support Hamas, despite your extraordinary measures to deny otherwise, and you believe Israel should compromise first and most in the peace process, even to the point of them compromising on their national security. You feel that the actions of Hamas are caused by Israel's actions, not the fact that Hamas is an evil terrorist group that wishes to kill every Jew on the planet.

Now you are trying to portray Israel as a South Africa clone, when you know full well that arabs in Israel are treated far better than Jews, or Christians, for that matter are treated in places like Jordan and Egypt.

Direckshun
11-29-2012, 05:51 PM
I comprehend your position your position perfectly well. You support Hamas

You're done. You're wrong.

Direckshun
11-29-2012, 05:53 PM
you believe Israel should compromise first and most in the peace process

You feel that the actions of Hamas are caused by Israel's actions, not the fact that Hamas is an evil terrorist group that wishes to kill every Jew on the planet.

Now you are trying to portray Israel as a South Africa clone

Just so we're clear, you're wrong on each of these as well.

So honestly, you fundamentally do not understand my views.

Which, after 100 posts, there's really nothing I can do for that at this point. You just don't get it.

Have at it, mnchiefsguy. That's your choice. It's divorced from reality.

Enjoy it.

mnchiefsguy
11-29-2012, 05:56 PM
You're done. You're wrong.

No, I'm not. You try to justify Hamas's actions at every turn, even when they are reprehensible.

You say "I don't support Hamas, but...."and then go into a diatribe about how it is Israel's fault and if evil Israel would just change their ways, then Hamas would quit bombing women and children and launching rockets into Israel.

In fact, I don't believe you would even acknowledge that Hamas is a terrorist organiztion....can you type that sentence? Can you say:

Hamas is a terrorist organization. I condemn their terrorist acts as crimes against humanity.

I doubt you will, but it will be fun seeing dance around a simple, direct, request.

mlyonsd
11-29-2012, 05:56 PM
Just so we're clear, you're wrong on each of these as well.

So honestly, you fundamentally do not understand my views.

Which, after 100 posts, there's really nothing I can do for that at this point. You just don't get it.
Is your main view if Israel gives in on certain points Palestinians will throw Hamas out and work towards peace?

Direckshun
11-29-2012, 06:05 PM
No, I'm not. You try to justify Hamas's actions at every turn, even when they are reprehensible.

Justify?

At every turn?

You're wrong.

Direckshun
11-29-2012, 06:07 PM
Is your main view if Israel gives in on certain points Palestinians will throw Hamas out and work towards peace?

I don't know if I'd phrase it that way, but that's basically it.

If Israel embraces a far different approach to Palestine and the two-state solution, the Palestinians will punish Hamas at the polls if they do not reciprocate when it would be all too easy to do so.

Hamas will either have to radically moderate, or the Palestinians will elect someone else who will.

mnchiefsguy
11-29-2012, 06:09 PM
Justify?

At every turn?

You're wrong.

Okay, whatever. If we held a poll in DC asking whether you supported Hamas or not, I think we all know how that would turn out.

And, by the way, you are ignoring this:

In fact, I don't believe you would even acknowledge that Hamas is a terrorist organiztion....can you type that sentence? Can you say:

Hamas is a terrorist organization. I condemn their terrorist acts as crimes against humanity.

I doubt you will, but it will be fun seeing dance around a simple, direct, request.

Direckshun
11-29-2012, 06:11 PM
Okay, whatever. If we held a poll in DC asking whether you supported Hamas or not, I think we all know how that would turn out.

A poll on ChiefsPlanet doesn't reflect my positions.

You're in left field.

mnchiefsguy
11-29-2012, 06:13 PM
A poll on ChiefsPlanet doesn't reflect my positions.

You're in left field.

So everyone else would be wrong, but you would be right. Got it.

Still waiting for the condemnation of Hamas. Not holding my breath though.

Direckshun
11-29-2012, 06:16 PM
So everyone else would be wrong, but you would be right.

"Everyone" wouldn't vote that I support Hamas.

The people who follow these threads and engage in extensive discussion with me over the issue -- most notably Donger and patteeu -- would most likely vote that I do not.

Which, again, and I can't stress this enough, I do not give a shit.

And this is boring the piss out of me.

mnchiefsguy
11-29-2012, 06:20 PM
"Everyone" wouldn't vote that I support Hamas.

The people who follow these threads and engage in extensive discussion with me over the issue -- most notably Donger and patteeu -- would most likely vote that I do not.

Which, again, and I can't stress this enough, I do not give a shit.

And this is boring the piss out of me.

Well do not post then, if you are so bored. How's that statement condemning Hamas coming along?

You just can't stand being pressed on a direct question or statement. Mis-Direckshun should be you name, it fits your argument style.

Direckshun
11-29-2012, 06:21 PM
Well do not post then, if you are so bored.

I'm considering it.

patteeu
11-29-2012, 06:34 PM
I don't think Direckshun supports Hamas. He's admitted that they don't want peace. But he sure does have an unrealistic point of view about how easy it would be to undermine Hamas in the eyes of palestinians and how willing palestinians would be to embrace peace with Israel if only Israel would change some of it's unspecified policies. Essentially, he wants Israel to turn the other cheek and allow Hamas to run rampant with a campaign of violence along with other unilateral concessions in order to draw the peace-loving spirits of the palestinian people to the surface. It's completely unrealistic, IMO.

mlyonsd
11-29-2012, 06:37 PM
I don't know if I'd phrase it that way, but that's basically it.

If Israel embraces a far different approach to Palestine and the two-state solution, the Palestinians will punish Hamas at the polls if they do not reciprocate when it would be all too easy to do so.

Hamas will either have to radically moderate, or the Palestinians will elect someone else who will.
So if Israel embraces a different approach and Palestine continues to ignore Israel's right to exist what would be the Israeli's next step?

Direckshun
11-29-2012, 06:42 PM
I don't think Direckshun supports Hamas. He's admitted that they don't want peace.

Angels we have heard on high.

But he sure does have an unrealistic point of view about how easy it would be to undermine Hamas in the eyes of palestinians and how willing palestinians would be to embrace peace with Israel if only Israel would change some of it's unspecified policies.

I do not believe that the path for Palestine would be easy. I think it would be pretty difficult. It would take a phenomenal amount of restraint and patience.

Like just about anything worth pursuing does.

BigRedChief
11-29-2012, 06:46 PM
I don't know if I'd phrase it that way, but that's basically it.

If Israel embraces a far different approach to Palestine and the two-state solution, the Palestinians will punish Hamas at the polls if they do not reciprocate when it would be all too easy to do so.

Hamas will either have to radically moderate, or the Palestinians will elect someone else who will.I'm not seeing or hearing that. Where did you develop that opinion?

Hamas still says in its bylaws, campaign material and at every speech to the crowds that come to hear them speak is, the destruction of Israel. They have no right to exist and should be thrown off the land of the righteous owners, the Palestinians.

Direckshun
11-29-2012, 06:47 PM
So if Israel embraces a different approach and Palestine continues to ignore Israel's right to exist what would be the Israeli's next step?

I don't think that's the order this goes in.

If Israel adopts a smarter approach to Palestine, then we are in a much better position for a two-state solution to be adopted. Part of the two-state solution, I believe, is mutual recognition of existence.

Direckshun
11-29-2012, 06:48 PM
I'm not seeing or hearing that. Where did you develop that opinion?

Hamas still says in its bylaws, campaign material and at every speech to the crowds that come to hear them speak is, the destruction of Israel. They have no right to exist and should be thrown off the land of the righteous owners, the Palestinians.

Right. That's what Palestinians want right now. Oppressed populations radicalize, human history has proven this.

So you have to douse some cold water on this insanity. And you do it by halting the oppression.

BigRedChief
11-29-2012, 06:50 PM
"Everyone" wouldn't vote that I support Hamas.

The people who follow these threads and engage in extensive discussion with me over the issue -- most notably Donger and patteeu -- would most likely vote that I do not.

Which, again, and I can't stress this enough, I do not give a shit.

And this is boring the piss out of me.Okay, I'm weighing in here. We agree on a lot of political and world views on how things ought to be.

But, on this we disagree. I'm just not seeing why any American should support Hamas or even support any Muslim that supports the destruction of Israel. What am I missing here?

Direckshun
11-29-2012, 06:55 PM
Okay, I'm weighing in here. We agree on a lot of political and world views on how things ought to be.

But, on this we disagree. I'm just not seeing why any American should support Hamas or even support any Muslim that supports the destruction of Israel. What am I missing here?

I don't believe Americans should support Hamas. You should support Palestinian independence, however.

It will allow an entire people to be free on land they have a historical and cultural right to, interact with their neighbors, become part of the international community, potentially thrive economically, enjoy full human rights, and minimize violence with Israel. Armed with self-determination and economic freedom, Palestine will moderate, and the Hamas' of the population will lose their foothold.

BigRedChief
11-29-2012, 06:55 PM
Right. That's what Palestinians want right now. Oppressed populations radicalize, human history has proven this.

So you have to douse some cold water on this insanity. And you do it by halting the oppression.ohhh I fully admit the Israeli's are oppressing the Palestinians. They make life for all Arabs that live in the West Bank and Gaza extremely difficult.. A lot of pain is inflicted.

However, when you are asleep in your room with your 9 year old brother and a rocket comes into your house and you wake up with your brothers blood and brains all over you....... it makes you more inclined to say fuck those heathrens.

And every time that Israeli's kill innocent Arabs, the same things are said on the Arab side of the fence.

patteeu
11-29-2012, 06:57 PM
Angels we have heard on high.



I do not believe that the path for Palestine would be easy. I think it would be pretty difficult. It would take a phenomenal amount of restraint and patience.

Like just about anything worth pursuing does.

But restraint and patience only on the Israeli side, right? If a band of radical Jews (let's call them Jamas) started committing private acts of terrorism against palestinian innocents, would you be calling on the faction of palestinians who presumably want peace to restrain themselves or would you be calling on Israeli authorities to put an end to it?

Just to be clear, I think your approach is completely unworkable. There's no way Israel can just absorb whatever damage Hamas wants to inflict knowing that there is no peace-loving authority in Gaza to reign them in. Ever.