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View Full Version : Int'l Issues November 29: The UN will vote to recognize Palestine as a "state."


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Direckshun
11-13-2012, 10:54 PM
Currently, Palestine is a non-member observer entity in the UN.

The Palestinians have pressed forth to introduce a measure to upgrade them in the UN's eyes to a non-member observer state.

While being upgraded from non-member observer entity to non-member observer state doesn't sound like much, it does provide Palestine an opportunity to actually contribute and perform within the UN.

Most damning, of course, is that it would tell Israel and the United States that their treatment of Palestine is tantamount to suppression of what should be a legitimate, free country. An act bordering on apartheid, which the ICC (run by the UN, which could soon include Palestine) as "inhuman acts committed for the purpose of establishing and maintaining domination by one racial group of persons over any other racial group of persons and systematically oppressing them." I don't regard that as a possibility.

But essentially, this has the ability to be a game changer in favor of two-state negotiations in favor of the Palestinian people, as opposed to the Likud/GOP alliance, which does not want any such two-state solution. All the facts on the ground right now favor Israel, as they expand their land, take more of the Palestinian land, and pretend with each passing year that the '67 borders with agreed-upon land swaps is some crime against Israel's humanity.

The only real arrow in Palestine's quiver is international opinion. And this particular vote in the UN cannot be unilaterally shot down by the United States, so it is sure to be voted on, and sure to be passed by roughly 75% of the UN.

As such, the United States and Israel are, understandably, freaking the **** out. The US is threatening to withdraw funding for much of the UN. Israel is threatening to discard the Oslo Accord, which allowed Palestine self-governance. This could potentially mean apartheid in everything but name.

So things are going to get really, really fascinating.

I ultimately think that Israel and the US' bark is worse than their bite. Obama prides himself on effective diplomacy which cannot happen if he's going to war with the UN. Israel's Netanyahu is far less concerned with international opinion, but doesn't want Israel to end up on the wrong side of the distinction between internationally frowned-upon to internationally despised. Though he may be heading that way anyway.

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-11-08/palestinians-defy-obama-with-un-observer-state-bid

Palestinians Defy Obama With UN ‘Observer State’ Bid
By Flavia Krause-Jackson
on November 08, 2012

Palestinians defied newly re-elected U.S. President Barack Obama by pushing ahead with a second statehood bid at the United Nations that will raise their profile at the world body and highlight the stagnation of the Mideast peace process.

The Palestinian Authority yesterday circulated a resolution to put the Palestine Liberation Organization on a par with the Holy See, according to a draft that will be put to a vote in the UN’s 193-member General Assembly, where the initiative has enough support to pass and the U.S. lacks veto power.

The latest steps by the Palestinians present Obama with his first foreign-policy challenge three days after he won a second term. A year ago, the Palestinians abandoned an attempt to be recognized as a full member state through the Security Council after Obama indicated the U.S. would use its veto there.

The PLO, which currently is an observer “entity,” is seeking a nonmember “observer state status,” according to the draft obtained by Bloomberg News.

By resurrecting the statehood issue in the General Assembly, the Palestinian leadership is trying to force the White House to pay attention to a moribund Palestinian-Israeli peace process that has dropped off the list of foreign-policy priorities for Obama.

In doing so, Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas is jeopardizing relations with Obama, as well as about $500 million in U.S. economic and security aid that members of Congress have threatened to cut if Palestinians proceed at the UN.

Issue Fades

The Palestinians have seen their cause fall into relative obscurity internationally since formal peace talks with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s government were frozen two years ago.

Peace talks stumbled over the issue of Jewish settlements in the West Bank, which Israel captured from Jordan in the 1967 Six-Day War. Abbas said he wouldn’t return to negotiations unless Israel froze all settlement construction in the West Bank and east Jerusalem. Netanyahu has refused to renew a 10-month freeze on construction that expired in 2010.

Abbas will present the resolution in person in New York, according to a UN official speaking on condition of anonymity. A vote is expected to take place by the end of the month, the official said.

Still, the move isn’t without risks.

When the Palestinian Authority was accepted last year into the UN cultural agency UNESCO, best known for its designation of “world heritage” sites, the U.S. response was to cut off funding that provides almost a quarter of the agency’s budget.

The U.S. has said that American law would require similar cutoffs for any UN agency that grants the Palestinians the same status as member states.

International Criminal Court

The upgrade may open the door for Palestinians to join other UN agencies, including the International Criminal Court, where they could ask for Israel to be tried for war crimes.

“Israel’s main worry is the ICC,” Palestinian chief negotiator Saeb Erakat said in an Oct. 24 interview. “They don’t want me to have a sword on their neck.”

The initiative could also jeopardize international aid that accounts for about 14 percent of the Palestinians’ gross domestic product and invite retaliatory measures from Israel.

As for the U.S., the administration’s position hasn’t wavered. The U.S. ambassador to the UN, Susan Rice, has said repeatedly that “unilateral actions,” such as the upgrade of the Palestinians’ UN status, would only derail efforts to restart direct peace talks between Israel and the Palestinians.

banyon
11-13-2012, 11:01 PM
Then they'll take all of our guns away the next day, right?

go bowe
11-15-2012, 12:02 AM
the un gen assembly will pass this thing without a doubt...

the majority of the ga has always supported the palestinians' right to a state of their own, afaik...

the interesting part is how much this will impact israel and the u.s. with things like the icc, as the op pointed out...

pretty scary notion, having israel convicted of war crimes...

could get a bit sticky...

KILLER_CLOWN
11-15-2012, 07:58 AM
Israel and Palestine can give each other a big makeup hug and recognize each other, The world would be better for it.

BucEyedPea
11-15-2012, 08:13 AM
The UN was a big cause in this war back in the day.

Regardless, I still have to wonder why they think they should be elected to determine who is state or not.

BucEyedPea
11-15-2012, 08:14 AM
Israel and Palestine can give each other a big makeup hug and recognize each other, The world would be better for it.

This.

Iowanian
11-15-2012, 08:43 AM
Waste of time.

patteeu
11-15-2012, 09:21 AM
Israel is calling up it's reservists. I think palestinians are about to be recognized in a way they probably don't want but definitely deserve.

patteeu
11-15-2012, 09:27 AM
God's eye view of the end of a man of evil.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/7PpwMnXcAwI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Iowanian
11-15-2012, 09:53 AM
Hooray for Palestinian rockets smashing into apartment buildings, providing FREE late term abortions to children in Israel.

Donger
11-15-2012, 10:11 AM
Oh good. It's probably easier to target a state instead of an entity.

Iowanian
11-15-2012, 10:28 AM
I just hope all of the Palestinians wear their bomb vests to the celebration and detonate them at midnight as a sign of solidarity.

Amnorix
11-15-2012, 11:18 AM
My sympathy for Palestine is pretty limited while they cowardly act as a proxy for Iran and lobby rockets into Israel.

stevieray
11-15-2012, 10:14 PM
My sympathy for Palestine is pretty limited while they cowardly act as a proxy for Iran and lobby rockets into Israel.

:clap:

..over 200 fired into Israel today.

HonestChieffan
11-15-2012, 10:18 PM
:clap:

..over 200 fired into Israel today.

Not gonna end well. Hopefully Israel sends a very strong message

stevieray
11-15-2012, 10:27 PM
Not gonna end well. Hopefully Israel sends a very strong message

I have no doubt.

ForeverChiefs58
11-15-2012, 11:05 PM
Hopefully, every last supporter of Hamas is executed.


"Hamas, meanwhile, warned it would strike deeper inside Israel with Iranian-made Fajr-5 rockets, acknowledging for the first time it has such longer-range weapons capable of hitting targets some 47 miles (75 kilometers) away. Tel Aviv is 40 miles (70 kilometers) from Gaza.

By nightfall Thursday, Hamas said it had fired more than 350 rockets into Israel. Israel, which estimates Gaza militants have as many as 12,000 rockets, said some 220 rockets struck the Jewish state and another 130 were intercepted by an anti-missile shield."


http://news.yahoo.com/hamas-targets-tel-aviv-part-rocket-barrage-234140732.html

WV
11-15-2012, 11:09 PM
We should give them our place in the UN. Freaking joke.

|Zach|
11-15-2012, 11:11 PM
Then they'll take all of our guns away the next day, right?

LMAO

LOCOChief
11-16-2012, 08:19 AM
The UN was a big cause in this war back in the day.

Regardless, I still have to wonder why they think they should be elected to determine who is state or not.


Are you referring to the partition?

LOCOChief
11-16-2012, 08:26 AM
Israel is calling up it's reservists. I think palestinians are about to be recognized in a way they probably don't want but definitely deserve.


I would have agreed with this up until recently, I've since one a 180.

patteeu
11-16-2012, 08:39 AM
I would have agreed with this up until recently, I've since one a 180.

Talk to me. What's turned you around?

LOCOChief
11-16-2012, 09:16 AM
Talk to me. What's turned you around?

I'm new to this and admittedly not very knowledgeable on the facts and history but I'm trying to change that.
My thinking is with the British / French mandate, the UN Partition, The 6 day war that was initiated by Israel that it was a Zionist invasion and occupation of Palestinians territory.

I don't know the history prior to WW1, but do understand that the area was part of the Ottoman Empire for 600+ years prior.

I don't know what justification Israel has for claiming this territory as their own.

durtyrute
11-16-2012, 09:22 AM
http://www.frugallivingnw.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/empty_bag.jpg

What's in the bag you ask?

The amount of fucks given

patteeu
11-16-2012, 09:33 AM
I'm new to this and admittedly not very knowledgeable on the facts and history but I'm trying to change that.
My thinking is with the British / French mandate, the UN Partition, The 6 day war that was initiated by Israel that it was a Zionist invasion and occupation of Palestinians territory.

I don't know the history prior to WW1, but do understand that the area was part of the Ottoman Empire for 600+ years prior.

I don't know what justification Israel has for claiming this territory as their own.

Well, first of all, when I say the palestinians deserve the beatdown they're about to get, I'm mainly talking about the militants who continue to lob rockets into Israel from Gaza even after Israel has withdrawn both it's troops and it's settlements. I'm also talking about other palestinians in Gaza who support the militants or allow them to continue to run the show.

WRT to the Six Day War, Israel struck first, but they did so only because Egypt had taken several steps indicating that an attack was imminent. Among Egypt's actions (http://www.bbc.co.uk/ethics/war/just/preemptive.shtml):

announced a policy of hostility to Israel
put its military forces on maximum alert
expelled the UN Emergency force from the Sinai border area
strengthened its forces on the border with Israel
announced the closure of the Straits of Tiran to Israeli ships
formed mutual support treaties with Iraq, Jordan and Syria

I don't know whether the creation of Israel was a mistake or not. But like with the American Indian and US territory, it's ancient history now and Israel is a fact of life. 60+ year old grievances don't justify the terrorism and rocket attacks that palestinians continue to launch against Israel. Israelis would like nothing better than to live in peace next to their Arab neighbors. And if those Arab neighbors are unwilling to give the palestinian population a home, Israel has shown that they are willing to live peacefully next to a palestinian state. Unfortunately, there are a lot of palestinians who don't have peace on their minds.

LOCOChief
11-16-2012, 09:35 AM
I’m not anti Semitic and certainly not pro Palestinian (no dog in the hunt) but if I had a foreign occupant force in my backyard I’d be taking shots at them. If I understood what rights the Jewish people feel they have to this land I might think differently. I haven’t found the answer to this so maybe someone can enlighten me.

BucEyedPea
11-16-2012, 09:35 AM
I'm new to this and admittedly not very knowledgeable on the facts and history but I'm trying to change that.
My thinking is with the British / French mandate, the UN Partition, The 6 day war that was initiated by Israel that it was a Zionist invasion and occupation of Palestinians territory.

I don't know the history prior to WW1, but do understand that the area was part of the Ottoman Empire for 600+ years prior.

I don't know what justification Israel has for claiming this territory as their own.

Read The Thousand Year War. It's written more for a young high-schooler but it still has great information and is not a tome. It will fill in information you've never heard. You can get it cheap used too.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Thousand-Year-War-Mideast/dp/0942617320

Also can read about Lawrence of Arabia. If you don't have much time, there's a decent summary on the PBS site. Section on Emerging Middle East is decent.

http://www.pbs.org/lawrenceofarabia/

You can use that in conjunction with watching the old movie which just makes events real. It at least shows the betrayal by the British to the Arabs which T.E. Lawrence witnessed because he worked for British intel and fought with the Arabs. It's actually a great flick.

Then watch the movie "Exodus" to see it from the Jewish side, which shows how they were friends with Arabs and how the UN partition divides them.

Remember the UN was spawned by the US originally. It replaced progressive Wilson's League of Nations.

ROYC75
11-16-2012, 09:36 AM
There is no Palestine anymore, only the fighting ragheads that think they should go back in time and re-create it.

BucEyedPea
11-16-2012, 09:37 AM
There is no Palestine anymore, only the fighting ragheads that think they should go back in time and re-create it.

Not if the UN has its way.

ROYC75
11-16-2012, 09:38 AM
Well, first of all, when I say the palestinians deserve the beatdown they're about to get, I'm mainly talking about the militants who continue to lob rockets into Israel from Gaza even after Israel has withdrawn both it's troops and it's settlements. I'm also talking about other palestinians in Gaza who support the militants or allow them to continue to run the show.

WRT to the Six Day War, Israel struck first, but they did so only because Egypt had taken several steps indicating that an attack was imminent. Among Egypt's actions (http://www.bbc.co.uk/ethics/war/just/preemptive.shtml):



I don't know whether the creation of Israel was a mistake or not. But like with the American Indian and US territory, it's ancient history now and Israel is a fact of life. 60+ year old grievances don't justify the terrorism and rocket attacks that palestinians continue to launch against Israel. Israelis would like nothing better than to live in peace next to their Arab neighbors. And if those Arab neighbors are unwilling to give the palestinian population a home, Israel has shown that they are willing to live peacefully next to a palestinian state. Unfortunately, there are a lot of palestinians who don't have peace on their minds.


Bingo ...... well put, I didn't want to take the time to post all the crap about Palestine or Israel.

ROYC75
11-16-2012, 09:39 AM
Not if the UN has its way.

Sure, imposing their will on the people of the world

patteeu
11-16-2012, 09:41 AM
I’m not anti Semitic and certainly not pro Palestinian (no dog in the hunt) but if I had a foreign occupant force in my backyard I’d be taking shots at them. If I understood what rights the Jewish people feel they have to this land I might think differently. I haven’t found the answer to this so maybe someone can enlighten me.

They're not in their backyard. Israel withdrew completely from Gaza. You can't possibly consider the entire territory of Israel to be the palestinians' backyard do you? Do you consider the state of Missouri to be unlawfully occupied American Indian territory?

LOCOChief
11-16-2012, 09:42 AM
I don't know whether the creation of Israel was a mistake or not. But like with the American Indian and US territory, it's ancient history now and Israel is a fact of life. 60+ year old grievances don't justify the terrorism and rocket attacks that palestinians continue to launch against Israel. Israelis would like nothing better than to live in peace next to their Arab neighbors. And if those Arab neighbors are unwilling to give the palestinian population a home, Israel has shown that they are willing to live peacefully next to a palestinian state. Unfortunately, there are a lot of palestinians who don't have peace on their minds.

That is a good analogy and how I view it. And I completely agree that nothing justifies the attacks on people of Israel, but I would probably feel differently if my great grandparent’s farm was taken by a foreign invader. I don't think that the fact that it was water under the bridge would curb my animosity.

BucEyedPea
11-16-2012, 09:44 AM
Sure, imposing their will on the people of the world

Only if the people of the world agree with it.

LOCOChief
11-16-2012, 09:45 AM
They're not in their backyard. Israel withdrew completely from Gaza. You can't possibly consider the entire territory of Israel to be the palestinians' backyard do you? Do you consider the state of Missouri to be unlawfully occupied American Indian territory?

I think I do to some extent. Trail of tears.

ROYC75
11-16-2012, 09:50 AM
Only if the people of the world agree with it.

And when the people of the world wants to screw with us, how do you feel about this ?

BucEyedPea
11-16-2012, 09:51 AM
And when the people of thew world wants to screw with us, how do you feel about this ?

What does that have to do with "us" when it comes to Palestine being seen as a state?

It has nothing to do with us.

LOCOChief
11-16-2012, 09:51 AM
Read The Thousand Year War. It's written more for a young high-schooler but it still has great information and is not a tome. It will fill in information you've never heard. You can get it cheap used too.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Thousand-Year-War-Mideast/dp/0942617320

Also can read about Lawrence of Arabia. If you don't have much time, there's a decent summary on the PBS site. Section on Emerging Middle East is decent.

http://www.pbs.org/lawrenceofarabia/

You can use that in conjunction with watching the old movie which just makes events real. It at least shows the betrayal by the British to the Arabs which T.E. Lawrence witnessed because he worked for British intel and fought with the Arabs. It's actually a great flick.

Then watch the movie "Exodus" to see it from the Jewish side, which shows how they were friends with Arabs and how the UN partition divides them.

Remember the UN was spawned by the US originally. It replaced progressive Wilson's League of Nations.

I will and thank you. And I drew the same conclusion from the UN partition.

ROYC75
11-16-2012, 09:58 AM
What does that have to do with "us" when it comes to Palestine being seen as a state?

It has nothing to do with us.

If the UN can take the outcry of some people of the world to force their will upon a country, what will the UN do when a large outcry of the world voices their opinion over the US ?

Different circumstances but the same policy .... imposing their will over a country because of public outcry.

BucEyedPea
11-16-2012, 10:09 AM
If the UN can take the outcry of some people of the world to force their will upon a country, what will the UN do when a large outcry of the world voices their opinion over the US ?

Different circumstances but the same policy .... imposing their will over a country because of public outcry.

Yes, but don't forgot that's what we're doing for one side of that conflict too. This was done for Israel via the UN earlier as well. If it shouldn't be done then it shouldn't be done for either side.

I am all for the two sides duking it out and settling the issue on it's own with no interference instead. But it was the US progressives that spawned the same UN.

Plus, the UN is aiding and facilitating the same thing on Iran with sanctions. I take it you agree with that one?

ROYC75
11-16-2012, 10:26 AM
Iran is clearly in violation of IAEA

BucEyedPea
11-16-2012, 10:47 AM
Iran is clearly in violation of IAEA
Well, that has nothing to do with what I recognizing Palestine as a state or whether or not we should all be under the global governance of the UN.

For one thing, the IAEA, although independent, reports to the UN General Assembly and Security Council.
I thought you were against the UN enforcing it's mandates for us? Or is this just for other countries and not us? I say you can't have it both ways. You're either for global governance for all or not at all.

However, there is NO real evidence of Iran being in violation of the IAEA. That's disinformation that has been reprinted in the neo conservative and conservative media because they want to start another war for regime change. Israeli intelligence, Mossad, is in broad agreement with the 2007 NIE, authored by the heads of all US intelligence agencies, that the Iranian regime suspended all efforts to build a nuclear bomb in 2003.

But I don't want to turn this thread topic into a major hijack and then bring Big Dick in to waste my time rehashing the same arguments and documents all over again via his rhetorical questions.

patteeu
11-16-2012, 10:56 AM
That is a good analogy and how I view it. And I completely agree that nothing justifies the attacks on people of Israel, but I would probably feel differently if my great grandparent’s farm was taken by a foreign invader. I don't think that the fact that it was water under the bridge would curb my animosity.

What foreign invaders? Jews were already there before Israel was created. In fact, they were terrorists fighting for a state before it was cool to be a terrorist fighting for a state. Certainly many others emigrated after Israel was created, but they weren't foreign invaders.

When Britain's mandate ended and the UN partitioned the area, two states were created; a Jewish one (which had both Arabs and indigenous Jews in it) and an Arab one (which was almost exclusively Arab). The Arabs didn't like it so they went to war and later were joined by the neighboring Arab states. Even then, the Arabs wanted it all. Israel ended up winning that war, but as a part of the war, many of the Arabs that were in Israel fled (or, I'm sure in some cases, were forced out) and became refugees. This is what they're talking about when the palestinians demand a "right of return". They want to be able to return to Israel and reclaim land that they or their forefathers left 60+ years ago. This will never happen.

But to make a long story short, not only were there not foreign invaders, but it was the Arabs who tried to destroy Israel when they lost their previously held land, not the other way around.

patteeu
11-16-2012, 10:57 AM
I think I do to some extent. Trail of tears.

OK, well we'll have to agree to disagree then.

Are you ready to give up whatever property you hold an illegitimate white man's title on to it's rightful owner?

KILLER_CLOWN
11-16-2012, 11:00 AM
I laugh at these people that think you're anti semitic for not blindly following Israels mandate. Both sides are Shem ites. ;)

BucEyedPea
11-16-2012, 11:02 AM
What foreign invaders? Jews were already there before Israel was created.
They were also content to live side by side with Arabs. They original indigenous ones called Sephardic Jews, came back when Queen Isabella kicked them out of Spain. They were not political. Then the ones who came due to Herzl's movement were not a big number and a minority. Even they lived side by side on land purchased. Their numbers swelled with what are called white European Ashkenazi Jews after WWII. These are not the same indigenous semite Jews of the area but converts to Judaism. This is part of the problem too, because they're seen as outsiders.

ForeverChiefs58
11-16-2012, 12:05 PM
Here watch this to learn history in 10 min lol

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/O7ByJb7QQ9U" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Pawnmower
11-16-2012, 12:09 PM
The Palestinians should have their own state.

Its just too bad they elect parties like Hamas to represent them.

If the Hamas covenant didn't specifically state:

1) Negotiations are a waste of time

2) There can be no peace with Israel

3) The mandate is to destroy Israel

4 ) The ONLY solution is Jihad, there can be no agreements


If their own mandate didn't have these things, they would not only have their own state but they could've spent the last decades improving their citizen's lives instead of spending their time and energy continuing a futile war against Israel.

I am all for Palestine having its own state but they also need to take responsibility for controlling a state. This includes stopping people from firing rockets into Israel.

If the state is controlled by Hamas, and Hamas is at war with Israel, what is the point? That is pretty much why there isn't a state right now....It all comes back to the 1988 Charter which they are not able/willing to part with.

God help them (and us).

ROYC75
11-16-2012, 01:44 PM
Screw Palestine, IMHO, there is no Palestine anymore. They have had their chances for so long now since 1948 it's reprehensible to think they should have a state after the death and destruction by those raghead Arabs.

Tell them to go back to Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Iraq, they treated them so well during the years they occupied the WB and the Gaza. Stupid idiots couldn't even see things then that they were screwed, but yet they still want to back them for a fight they do not deserve to have.

Here is the deal, When you are given your state, and you are not happy because you want the whole damn pie, you stage war and announce death to Israel, you get what you get. Idiocy!

Pawnmower
11-16-2012, 03:03 PM
Screw Palestine, IMHO, there is no Palestine anymore. They have had their chances for so long now since 1948 it's reprehensible to think they should have a state after the death and destruction by those raghead Arabs.


Well, it isn't really that simple....I mean I do see an argument for what you are saying...AND The reason they do not have a state now is quite simply because the Palestinian people, by and large, refuse to acknowledge Israel and refuse to negotiate with Israel and see Jihad / destruction of Israel as the only solution.

However, the Palestinians have as much of a right to a state as Israel according to the mandate that created Israel.

I believe it would be better to grant them their wish, because as it is now they have ZERO responsibility. Think about it....who gets the blame for the rockets and bombs and martyrs that Palestinians send at Israel?

1) Israel (for not allowing Paelstine a state)

and

2) Hamas and other terrorist organizations (who are actually elected representatives of Palestinians.

The PEOPLE of Paelstine take zero blame in the media and take zero responsibility.

Therefore, we might as well give them a state . Why? That way when the bombs and missiles continue (and they WILL) there will be NO ONE ELSE TO BLAME other than the Palestinians themselves.

Simply put, they need to put up or shut up. They need to take responsibility for their people and as a whole acknowledge that Israel exists and negotiate a peace. They need to abandon the Hamas covenant of 1988. If they continue to elect a government bent on war and with 'zero negotiation' as a platform, then that would be their choice.

If they get a state and continue to launch missiles (which I believe they will) there will be no one else but them.

This logic is similar to why we have to stop meddling in Egypt, Libya, Syria, Lebanon, Tunisia etc....

Let the people determine their fate. If they want war STILL after gaining their freedom, then let them have it and they won't be able to blame anyone but themselves.

BucEyedPea
11-16-2012, 03:17 PM
Screw Palestine, IMHO, there is no Palestine anymore. Did you get that idea from reading Joseph Farah at WND?

They have had their chances for so long now since 1948 it's reprehensible to think they should have a state after the death and destruction by those raghead Arabs.

Tell them to go back to Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Iraq, they treated them so well during the years they occupied the WB and the Gaza. Stupid idiots couldn't even see things then that they were screwed, but yet they still want to back them for a fight they do not deserve to have.

Here is the deal, When you are given your state, and you are not happy because you want the whole damn pie, you stage war and announce death to Israel, you get what you get. Idiocy!

It's really none of our business. We don't rule the area.
I don't think Israel is always innocent either and we get favorable press for one side.

KILLER_CLOWN
11-16-2012, 03:32 PM
Screw Palestine, IMHO, there is no Palestine anymore. They have had their chances for so long now since 1948 it's reprehensible to think they should have a state after the death and destruction by those raghead Arabs.

Tell them to go back to Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Iraq, they treated them so well during the years they occupied the WB and the Gaza. Stupid idiots couldn't even see things then that they were screwed, but yet they still want to back them for a fight they do not deserve to have.

Here is the deal, When you are given your state, and you are not happy because you want the whole damn pie, you stage war and announce death to Israel, you get what you get. Idiocy!

Bite your tongue, Raghead? It's quite conceivable Jesus wore such, check yourself.

go bowe
11-16-2012, 03:41 PM
Bite your tongue, Raghead? It's quite conceivable Jesus wore such, check yourself.

raghead is an ethnic slur in common parlance...

pretty overt prejudice there... :eek: :eek: :eek:

Donger
11-16-2012, 04:40 PM
I'm new to this and admittedly not very knowledgeable on the facts and history but I'm trying to change that.
My thinking is with the British / French mandate, the UN Partition, The 6 day war that was initiated by Israel that it was a Zionist invasion and occupation of Palestinians territory.

I don't know the history prior to WW1, but do understand that the area was part of the Ottoman Empire for 600+ years prior.

I don't know what justification Israel has for claiming this territory as their own.

Do you know why Israel acted pre-emptively in 1967?

Donger
11-16-2012, 04:44 PM
However, there is NO real evidence of Iran being in violation of the IAEA.

Wrong, as you know. Iran is in non-compliance with NPT safeguards, namely the requirement that they prove their nuclear activities are peaceful.

But I don't want to turn this thread topic into a major hijack and then bring Big Dick in to waste my time rehashing the same arguments and documents all over again via his rhetorical questions.

Well, when you blatantly and intentionally lie, sure, I'm going to correct you.

Dylan
11-16-2012, 04:56 PM
Breaking News


Rockets launched at Israel from Sinai

Terrorists in the Sinai Peninsula launched rockets into Israel Friday night.

The rockets fell near an Israeli village on the southern border, causing some damage, but no injuries.

Read the full story: http://www.jpost.com/Headlines/Article.aspx?id=292214


Arab Spring ---- -----!

vailpass
11-16-2012, 05:01 PM
Breaking News


Rockets launched at Israel from Sinai

Terrorists in the Sinai Peninsula launched rockets into Israel Friday night.

The rockets fell near an Israeli village on the southern border, causing some damage, but no injuries.

Read the full story: http://www.jpost.com/Headlines/Article.aspx?id=292214


Arab Spring ---- -----!

Yeah this isn't good. I'm nervous about this one popping off into something really big that drags the real countries into it.
That said, every Hamas member and Hamas supporter that dies is one less problem for the world.

BucEyedPea
11-16-2012, 09:31 PM
I will and thank you. And I drew the same conclusion from the UN partition.

It's on TV right now on TCM.

http://www.tcm.com/tcmdb/title/4455/Lawrence-of-Arabia/full-synopsis.html

Easy 6
11-16-2012, 09:48 PM
The Palestinians should have their own state.

Its just too bad they elect parties like Hamas to represent them.

If the Hamas covenant didn't specifically state:

1) Negotiations are a waste of time

2) There can be no peace with Israel

3) The mandate is to destroy Israel

4 ) The ONLY solution is Jihad, there can be no agreements


If their own mandate didn't have these things, they would not only have their own state but they could've spent the last decades improving their citizen's lives instead of spending their time and energy continuing a futile war against Israel.

I am all for Palestine having its own state but they also need to take responsibility for controlling a state. This includes stopping people from firing rockets into Israel.

If the state is controlled by Hamas, and Hamas is at war with Israel, what is the point? That is pretty much why there isn't a state right now....It all comes back to the 1988 Charter which they are not able/willing to part with.

God help them (and us).

.

Easy 6
11-16-2012, 09:55 PM
Breaking News


Rockets launched at Israel from Sinai

Terrorists in the Sinai Peninsula launched rockets into Israel Friday night.

The rockets fell near an Israeli village on the southern border, causing some damage, but no injuries.

Read the full story: http://www.jpost.com/Headlines/Article.aspx?id=292214


Arab Spring ---- -----!

Egypt winks at the subterfuge, fire the rockets from our lands.... say goodbye to the longstanding accord willed into place by the much maligned Jimmy Carter.

Morsi supports terror, as long as its against israel... goodbye Sadat... the lunatics have taken over.

Dylan
11-16-2012, 10:17 PM
IDF Pinpoint Strike on Ahmed Jabari, Head of Hamas Military Wing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6U2ZQ0EhN4

Official Israel Defense Forces Twitter account: real-time information and updates from the IDF:

We recommend that no Hamas operatives, whether low level or senior leaders, show their faces above ground in the days ahead.
https://twitter.com/IDFSpokesperson


The Al Qassam Brigades in Palestine use a couple of Twitter accounts - However, I'm not about to post a link to their activities. They mark some of their attacks with the hashtag #terrorism.

KILLER_CLOWN
11-16-2012, 10:53 PM
Israeli Debater on CNN: "The difference between us and them is that they target innocent civilians. We don't do that." Seconds later, the Palestinian debater's street is bombed.

http://edition.cnn.com/video/?/video/bestoftv/2012/11/15/nr-life-in-gaza-strip-seshay-intv.cnn

Pawnmower
11-16-2012, 11:53 PM
Israeli Debater on CNN: "The difference between us and them is that they target innocent civilians. We don't do that." Seconds later, the Palestinian debater's street is bombed.


So let me get this straight...You are saying that Israelis go out of their way to target innocents?

People like you honestly are part of the reason why this conflict is still happening.

The ONLY ones going out of their way to bomb innocent people are Hamas and Palestinians.

For some reason people like you seem to not understand the difference....

There is a reason that hiding among civilians and wearing civilian clothing is illegal.....

The sooner everyone condemns the people sending 3+ rockets EVERY DAY at israel over the last DECADE the sooner we can all have peace.

Honestly, are you that stupid?

KILLER_CLOWN
11-17-2012, 12:23 AM
So let me get this straight...You are saying that Israelis go out of their way to target innocents?

People like you honestly are part of the reason why this conflict is still happening.

The ONLY ones going out of their way to bomb innocent people are Hamas and Palestinians.

For some reason people like you seem to not understand the difference....

There is a reason that hiding among civilians and wearing civilian clothing is illegal.....

The sooner everyone condemns the people sending 3+ rockets EVERY DAY at israel over the last DECADE the sooner we can all have peace.

Honestly, are you that stupid?

I'm saying I posted a video, comprehend? You can feel free to go fight on one side of this unholy war, I will stay out of it.

Pawnmower
11-17-2012, 12:35 AM
I will stay out of it.

As well you should you blowhard moron. You don't have the balls to even stand up and denounce evil when it slaps you in the face.

If mexico was firing 1000 rockets a year at the USA would you think we should try to target the motherfuckers doing the rocketry?

You are a god damn retard

KILLER_CLOWN
11-17-2012, 12:37 AM
As well you should you blowhard moron. You don't have the balls to even stand up and denounce evil when it slaps you in the face.

If mexico was firing 1000 rockets a year at the USA would you think we should try to target the mother****ers doing the rocketry?

You are a god damn retard

Go over there and die you fucking idiot, as for me I will serve the Lord. Denounce you little Pussy!

go bowe
11-17-2012, 12:44 AM
Go over there and die you ****ing idiot, as for me I will serve the Lord. Denounce you little Pussy!

who you callin pussy??? :mad: :mad: :mad:

what?

oh, nm...

Mr. Flopnuts
11-17-2012, 06:54 AM
Screw Palestine, IMHO, there is no Palestine anymore. They have had their chances for so long now since 1948 it's reprehensible to think they should have a state after the death and destruction by those raghead Arabs.

Tell them to go back to Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Iraq, they treated them so well during the years they occupied the WB and the Gaza. Stupid idiots couldn't even see things then that they were screwed, but yet they still want to back them for a fight they do not deserve to have.

Here is the deal, When you are given your state, and you are not happy because you want the whole damn pie, you stage war and announce death to Israel, you get what you get. Idiocy!

This post was reported. Just like the beaner post was that resulted in Livesteam getting banned for a week. Roy, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt here, however I'd like to make it clear that while DC is not heavily moderated, racial slurs such as this one will result in bannings. There's a lot of dancing around racism that goes on in this forum, and the other moderators have decided that for now that's okay. It's not okay with me, but I believe in a majority consensus. That said, these blatant slurs will not be tolerated, so be ready for a vacation if you insist on using them.

ROYC75
11-17-2012, 10:37 AM
This post was reported. Just like the person of Hispanic heritage post was that resulted in Livesteam getting banned for a week. Roy, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt here, however I'd like to make it clear that while DC is not heavily moderated, racial slurs such as this one will result in bannings. There's a lot of dancing around racism that goes on in this forum, and the other moderators have decided that for now that's okay. It's not okay with me, but I believe in a majority consensus. That said, these blatant slurs will not be tolerated, so be ready for a vacation if you insist on using them.

I appreciate the benefit of doubt. All of this political correctness is nonsense when we have our 1st amendments rights.

But if anybody looks at me being racist, all I can say is it's one of the funniest comments on this forum or the history of CP. All of my grand kids are either biracial from the African American, Indian or our Native Indians.Yes, I have grand kids that can pass as Arabs by looking at them.

Proud & Love every one of them and have nothing against the people of their race except a disagreement amongst views.

The Arabs ( idiots, jihadist, etc) have tried to destroy Israel for over 2000 years and they have never learned anything, nada, nothing. How many Arabs are offended by Achmed the Dead Terroist or Jeff Dunham ?

The Liberals of the world think that all Republicans are racist cause they disagree with our POTUS. Crap, we have to dance around this issue because of the idiocy of the Liberals over this. We have to with the Muslim world because Obama says so ?

Political correctness is words of today - tomorrow.

The African American community can have their slag, words, degrading words and use it within their community, yet when it's heard in the whit community, it's their way, their rights,it shouldn't offend the white population. This is nothing more that double standards, screw you people but don't say anything negative that I may take offensive.

I see this crap all the time in the community.....my grand kids speak up and tell them they are wrong to act this way. What do you think happens next ?

Yep, they get looked upon as different, being raised by a white mama, an Uncle Tom family. The facts are they are smarter that the idiots that calls them names because we teach them differently.

Yeah, I should just not use any name at all, people are so butthurt over their insecurities. Let's not offend anybody they might go off !

Let's oppress the 1st Amendment.

BucEyedPea
11-17-2012, 10:41 AM
ROY,

The Bill of Rights was added to protect us from the Federal govt. First amendment rights do not apply in a private forum.
You can ban any message in your home even.

|Zach|
11-17-2012, 10:58 AM
I appreciate the benefit of doubt. All of this political correctness is nonsense when we have our 1st amendments rights.

But if anybody looks at me being racist, all I can say is it's one of the funniest comments on this forum or the history of CP. All of my grand kids are either biracial from the African American, Indian or our Native Indians.Yes, I have grand kids that can pass as Arabs by looking at them.

Proud & Love every one of them and have nothing against the people of their race except a disagreement amongst views.

The Arabs ( idiots, jihadist, etc) have tried to destroy Israel for over 2000 years and they have never learned anything, nada, nothing. How many Arabs are offended by Achmed the Dead Terroist or Jeff Dunham ?

The Liberals of the world think that all Republicans are racist cause they disagree with our POTUS. Crap, we have to dance around this issue because of the idiocy of the Liberals over this. We have to with the Muslim world because Obama says so ?

Political correctness is words of today - tomorrow.

The African American community can have their slag, words, degrading words and use it within their community, yet when it's heard in the whit community, it's their way, their rights,it shouldn't offend the white population. This is nothing more that double standards, screw you people but don't say anything negative that I may take offensive.

I see this crap all the time in the community.....my grand kids speak up and tell them they are wrong to act this way. What do you think happens next ?

Yep, they get looked upon as different, being raised by a white mama, an Uncle Tom family. The facts are they are smarter that the idiots that calls them names because we teach them differently.

Yeah, I should just not use any name at all, people are so butthurt over their insecurities. Let's not offend anybody they might go off !

Let's oppress the 1st Amendment.


It comes as no surprise to me that you don't understand the first amendment.

Pawnmower
11-17-2012, 11:04 AM
of this unholy war, I will stay out of it.

Running your bitch ass mouth isn't "staying out of it" now is it?

Dumb ass hypocrite. Stay out of it then...

STFU

KILLER_CLOWN
11-17-2012, 11:11 AM
Running your bitch ass mouth isn't "staying out of it" now is it?

Dumb ass hypocrite. Stay out of it then...

STFU

Like you're in it, you like to imagine don't you. Go pretend and head to fairy land little boy. Go get your M16 and parachute and get your ass over there.

Pawnmower
11-17-2012, 11:17 AM
Like you're in it, you like to imagine don't you. Go pretend and head to fairy land little boy. Go get your M16 and parachute and get your ass over there.

Way to take a stand...."stay out of it" yet running your mouth constantly about it.....

You are too dumb to even know the meaning of simple words....

Why can't you practice what you preach?

KILLER_CLOWN
11-17-2012, 11:19 AM
Way to take a stand...."stay out of it" yet running your mouth constantly about it.....

You are too dumb to even know the meaning of simple words....

Why can't you practice what you preach?

I don't know what kind of alternate reality you're in but I am "out of it" as I won't be heading over there to fight an unwinnable war for either side. Perhaps you missed that part I mentioned earlier, have at it hero.

Pawnmower
11-17-2012, 11:27 AM
I don't know what kind of alternate reality you're in but I am "out of it" as I won't be heading over there to fight an unwinnable war for either side.

I see, so you are saying that unless you actually FLY over there that you aren't supposed to discuss the issue? Unless we go do battle over there we can't have an opinion regarding rocket attacks? IN A FUCKING POLITICAL DISCUSSION FORUM?

You are a god damn moron, seriously.

KILLER_CLOWN
11-17-2012, 11:32 AM
I see, so you are saying that unless you actually FLY over there that you aren't supposed to discuss the issue? Unless we go do battle over there we can't have an opinion regarding rocket attacks? IN A ****ING POLITICAL DISCUSSION FORUM?

You are a god damn moron, seriously.

You only see one side, therefore you are not worth arguing with. I'm telling you that if you feel that strongly take those tough words to action.

L.A. Chieffan
11-17-2012, 12:48 PM
Some crazy pics of Gaza getting blown the fuck up. Too lazy to post.

Pawnmower
11-17-2012, 01:04 PM
You only see one side.......I'm telling you that if you feel that strongly take those tough words to action.

Totally false, I am absolutely for Palestine having its own state, and against illegal Israeli settlements.

Again, you are a stupid piece of shit with no idea about what you are saying.

I feel strongly about this, so you're saying I should go to Palestine and fight for Hamas?

Honestly you are a pathetic joke, simply trying to shout down discussion in a forum.

"If you feel so strongly that way, shut up and go fight" What a fucking retard.....

Sorry, I can have an opinion and not want to do violence toward others.

BucEyedPea
11-17-2012, 01:26 PM
Pawnmower always the civil poster.

ImAWalkingCorpse
11-17-2012, 01:27 PM
Anonymous is going after Israeli websites.

stevieray
11-17-2012, 02:03 PM
This post was reported. Just like the person of Hispanic heritage post was that resulted in Livesteam getting banned for a week. Roy, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt here, however I'd like to make it clear that while DC is not heavily moderated, racial slurs such as this one will result in bannings. There's a lot of dancing around racism that goes on in this forum, and the other moderators have decided that for now that's okay. It's not okay with me, but I believe in a majority consensus. That said, these blatant slurs will not be tolerated, so be ready for a vacation if you insist on using them.



you're compeltely FOS....can't call someone an idiot based on the their heritage? ya keep lowering the bar becaue you think they are less than and need your help...it's blatantly racist...

...and utterly pathetic.

La literatura
11-17-2012, 02:11 PM
you're compeltely FOS....can't call someone an idiot based on the their heritage? ya keep lowering the bar becaue you think they are less than and need your help...it's blatantly racist...

...and utterly pathetic.


"raghead Arabs," not "idiot" is the slur.

stevieray
11-17-2012, 02:34 PM
"raghead Arabs," not "idiot" is the slur.

ahh, thank you.

raghead is slang for turban, but I can see how it is innapropiate, because it was used in a derogatory manner.

KILLER_CLOWN
11-17-2012, 03:19 PM
Pawnmower always the civil poster.

Not only that his comprehension skills are abysmal, I'm thinking he escaped the asylum.

BucEyedPea
11-17-2012, 03:59 PM
Not only that his comprehension skills are abysmal, I'm thinking he escaped the asylum.

Yeah, he's another chronic strawmanner.

Pawnmower
11-17-2012, 04:48 PM
Yeah, he's another chronic strawmanner.

Show me the straw man in my post you dumb cunt

J Diddy
11-17-2012, 05:18 PM
ahh, thank you.

raghead is slang for turban, but I can see how it is innapropiate, because it was used in a derogatory manner.

Well it sure was nice of you to chew Flopnuts head off when you were wrong and then apologize for it. I'm sure he's happy.

ForeverChiefs58
11-17-2012, 05:49 PM
Anonymous is going after Israeli websites.

How dare Israel get mad for having hundreds of rockets randomly fired on their citizens, as well as their women and children purposely targeted for the only reason being that they are Jewish.

This whole war, just as with the Nazis, is about the hatred of jews period. This kind of hatred is instilled as children and is a huge factor in the problems there.

Watch this
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/7Gzyeo1Z1I4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

You cannot achieve peace until the main point is focused on.

There is no such thing as illegal settlements. Isael didn't take it from any sovergn nation let alone palestinians in general. It was occupied by arabs constantly waging war in their quest to kill jews.

The media, despite being run and controlled by jews, never calls it what it really is and only reacts negatively against Israel when they respond.


The palestinians only want Jerusalem to take from the jews. If you have ever been there, you would understand why they want Jerusalem, Dome of the Rock and the Templ Mount.

Every single time the palestinians have had a chance at a state they have rejected it, and responded with attacks. They still to this day won't even recognise Isael, and their charter calls for Isael's destruction. They have said jews wouldn't be allowed in their new state when they get one.

They have no interest in peace. People should believe them when they say they want to exterminate the jews, not hope they magically grasp the concept of peace. There is a reason they helped Hitler.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/xU9CauJP4Pg" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

|Zach|
11-17-2012, 06:02 PM
[QUOTE=ForeverChiefs58;9125829]
The media, despite being run and controlled by jews, never calls it what it really is and only reacts negatively against Israel when they respond.
/QUOTE]

Surely someone of middle eastern decent banged your lady. You have the weirdest paranoia filled feelings about Arabs. There must be a reason for it.

From your posting history it looks like you live in constant fear of this stuff.

Easy 6
11-17-2012, 06:26 PM
I understand and appreciate those who want to see both sides on this, but its hard to understand the anger toward israel.

They've been taking unprovoked rocket potshots for months, just how long were they supposed to sit back and take it before they defended themselves?

The palestinians cant have it all, we all know that, the jews are there and arent going anywhere... the sooner those people come to the same realization and put leaders in charge who recognize it, the sooner they can live in peace.

They dont seem to want peace, it seems if they cant have it all they'd rather fight into eternity.

ForeverChiefs58
11-17-2012, 06:30 PM
[QUOTE=ForeverChiefs58;9125829]
The media, despite being run and controlled by jews, never calls it what it really is and only reacts negatively against Israel when they respond.
/QUOTE]

Surely someone of middle eastern decent banged your lady. You have the weirdest paranoia filled feelings about Arabs. There must be a reason for it.

From your posting history it looks like you live in constant fear of this stuff.

Nope. I lived in and around the ME and Africa and just have first hand knowledge. If you talk with guys on this board who have been in the ME for a while, they will tell you similar things. It's not paranoia, it is just straight facts.

You go live there, come back and I am sure you would have similar stories and experiences. It is out in the wide open for anyone to see on just about every corner.

Just telling it how it is, I realize if you never get out in the world, it is much easier to just call it fear or paranoia instead of facts, but it still doesn't change things.

Direckshun
11-17-2012, 06:30 PM
I understand and appreciate those who want to see both sides on this, but its hard to understand the anger toward israel.

They've been taking unprovoked rocket potshots for months, just how long were they supposed to sit back and take it before they defended themselves?

Unprovoked?

I'm no fan of Hamas, but to call these attacks unprovoked is blindness.

|Zach|
11-17-2012, 06:32 PM
Nope. I lived in and around the ME and Africa and just have first hand knowledge. If you talk with guys on this board who have been in the ME for a while, they will tell you similar things. It's not paranoia, it is just straight facts.

You go live there, come back and I am sure you would have similar stories and experiences. It is out in the wide open for anyone to see on just about every corner.

Just telling it how it is, I realize if you never get out in the world, it is much easier to just call it fear or paranoia instead of facts, but it still doesn't change things.

I sort of get a kick out of you living your life scared in your own country.

Donger
11-17-2012, 06:35 PM
Unprovoked?

I'm no fan of Hamas, but to call these attacks unprovoked is blindness.

How did Israel provoke these attacks from Gaza?

Direckshun
11-17-2012, 06:35 PM
Israel primed for a ground invasion of Gaza.

One hopes this is quick, and civilian casualties will be minimized.

The last time Israel attempted this kind of mission, they failed. It doesn't seem possible to take out Gaza's capabilities of firing rockets unless you wipe out Gaza.

Unfortunately that's what I'm reading Israel intends to do. Let's hope it's just bravado.

Direckshun
11-17-2012, 06:37 PM
How did Israel provoke these attacks from Gaza?

Preemptive theft of land. Rejection of their right to exist as a state (and yes, I see the double standard there). Return violence that Palestinians see as unproportional responses.

Donger
11-17-2012, 06:37 PM
Israel primed for a ground invasion of Gaza.

One hopes this is quick, and civilian casualties will be minimized.

The last time Israel attempted this kind of mission, they failed. It doesn't seem possible to take out Gaza's capabilities of firing rockets unless you wipe out Gaza.

Unfortunately that's what I'm reading Israel intends to do. Let's hope it's just bravado.

In retrospect, Israel never should have made the peace overture of stopping the occupation. What could has it brought?

ForeverChiefs58
11-17-2012, 06:44 PM
Unprovoked?

I'm no fan of Hamas, but to call these attacks unprovoked is blindness.

Oh I can't wait to hear why you think hundreds of rockets fired at random innocent targets is somehow "provoked".

That word works both ways, and don't be surprised if you don't like the way they fight back.

Which side has constantly rejected statehood and respond with suicide bombings and random targeted attacks? The same palestinians who are willing to kill as many innocents as possible just because of their hatred for jews.

ForeverChiefs58
11-17-2012, 06:48 PM
I sort of get a kick out of you living your life scared in your own country.

Scared? In my own country? I never said that. Where did you get that?

I sort of get a kick out of watching you live your life with your head up your own ignorant ass.

Donger
11-17-2012, 06:50 PM
Preemptive theft of land. Rejection of their right to exist as a state (and yes, I see the double standard there). Return violence that Palestinians see as unproportional responses.

Considering that Israel chose to leave Gaza, I don't see one being relevant today.

Two is silly (as you more or less point out).

Well, they are going up against a more powerful state. It's quite simple: don't attack or paln to attack Israel, and their won't be a response, proportional or otherwise.

What exactly has Hamas done to show that they want peace with Israel?

ForeverChiefs58
11-17-2012, 07:04 PM
Preemptive theft of land. Rejection of their right to exist as a state (and yes, I see the double standard there). Return violence that Palestinians see as unproportional responses.

Who do you think Israel stole land from? Who do you think occupied the west bank before?

I ask because you realize there was no sovergn nation to steal land from living there at that time? They weren't even the same people. It was Jordan that occupied the west bank, but only so they could destroy Israel easier.


The state that is intended to live there has rejected every offering to help them achieve statehood.

mnchiefsguy
11-17-2012, 07:28 PM
This is no convincing of Direckshun on this issue....in his view Hamas is completely justified in targeting and launching rockets at women and children.

HonestChieffan
11-17-2012, 07:48 PM
I would fully expect Israel will move hard and fast with the maximum impact when they do.

ImAWalkingCorpse
11-17-2012, 08:04 PM
Spoiled rich white kids supporting terrorists.

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/pfailblog#utm_campaign=t.co&utm_source=9964771&utm_medium=social

HonestChieffan
11-17-2012, 08:10 PM
Interesting blog from a guy on the front line. By the time our media reports anything the rality of it is scrubbed and a spin put in place

http://muqata.blogspot.com/?m=0

Doubletapper is very good as well

ForeverChiefs58
11-17-2012, 08:44 PM
Unprovoked?

I'm no fan of Hamas, but to call these attacks unprovoked is blindness.

So, do you disagree with this statement?

“The rocket attacks by Hamas and other factions in Gaza which began this current crisis are totally unacceptable for any government and must stop,”



What part of these terrorist attacks are not a rinse and repeat?

ImAWalkingCorpse
11-17-2012, 09:45 PM
Hamas is smart.. they shield themselves with civilians.

Pawnmower
11-17-2012, 11:15 PM
Unprovoked?

I'm no fan of Hamas, but to call these attacks unprovoked is blindness.

bullshit

there are, on average 3 rocket attacks per day (12000 rockets over last decade or so)

200 rockets were launched BEFORE Israel retaliated...(just in this last barrage over the last week or so...for 3 DAYS Israel did nothing but ask nicely for them to stop)

Come on man...

Why dont you admit the main 'provocation' is that Hamas is UNWILLING to acknowledge Israel's existance, and has 'no peace, no negotiations PERIOD' as mandates.

With the Hamas victory over Fatah (civil war in 06/07), and now Hamas' core group (the Muslim Brotherhood) coming in to so much power, they feel emboldened and now have a plentiful supply of longer range rockets.

Please at least be honest here.

Dylan
11-18-2012, 02:48 AM
bullshit

there are, on average 3 rocket attacks per day (12000 rockets over last decade or so)

200 rockets were launched BEFORE Israel retaliated...(just in this last barrage over the last week or so...for 3 DAYS Israel did nothing but ask nicely for them to stop)

Come on man...

Why dont you admit the main 'provocation' is that Hamas is UNWILLING to acknowledge Israel's existance, and has 'no peace, no negotiations PERIOD' as mandates.

With the Hamas victory over Fatah (civil war in 06/07), and now Hamas' core group (the Muslim Brotherhood) coming in to so much power, they feel emboldened and now have a plentiful supply of longer range rockets.

Please at least be honest here.

:thumb:

Palestians killing Palestians: In 2007, the terrorist group Hamas had a military coup d'etat in Gaza. Some 400-500 Fatah fighters, the core of the Palestinian Authority's military were killed in that battle.

While Palestinian Authority president Mahmoud Abbas is in control of the West Bank - home to most of the Palestinian population dominated by Fatah - Hamas is in control of Gaza strip.

On Wednesday Abbas reportedly reached out to president Hamas leader Kaled Meshaal to negotiate for a unity interim cabinet in hopes it will revive momentum for a Palestinian state at the UN.

If Abbas moves forward and is granted observer state status, Israel would nullify the Oslo Accords. Therefore, toppling president Abbas and dismantling the PLO and Palestinian Authority.

Dylan
11-18-2012, 02:55 AM
Hamas uses pictures of Syrian dead - And claims them as Palestinian dead

https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/408116_10151159256063160_1404732174_n.jpg

http://www.picvalley.net/u/1538/182036099514655086741353096798xUkmEds8bFm31UaOV2UD.JPG

https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/408116_10151159256063160_1404732174_n.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/408116_10151159256063160_1404732174_n.jpg


The oldest trick in the book. While MSM is fooled again.

RedNeckRaider
11-18-2012, 08:31 AM
Preemptive theft of land. Rejection of their right to exist as a state (and yes, I see the double standard there). Return violence that Palestinians see as unproportional responses.

Don't step through the ropes if you are not prepared to receive what your opponent has to offer~

HonestChieffan
11-18-2012, 09:18 AM
"<a href="http://www.stratfor.com/analysis/pause-negotiations-israeli-hamas-conflict">A Pause for Negotiations in the Israeli-Hamas Conflict</a> is republished with permission of Stratfor."

http://www.stratfor.com/analysis/pause-negotiations-israeli-hamas-conflict?utm_source=freelist-f&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=20121118&utm_term=Georgepiece&utm_content=readmore&elq=8525c34edc35487490a462c66ccaf5c7

ForeverChiefs58
11-18-2012, 09:31 AM
And how the heck can they complain about the responses, when they just keep doing it, over and over again, to further push Israel until they have no choice?

Here's a clue, that most people with even a little brain matter already know, don't start something if you wont like the response.

If they have complaints they should have accepted statehood, then complained and filed the grievance they had like so many other coutries have done. Many other countries have disputed territories, but what kind of people just reject everything because they would rather respond with violence on their own and take it all?

When a people would rather reject peace and choose the path of violence, then the path of statehood and freedom? They should never be taken seriously, instead wiped out by everyone in the world with higher values than strapping bombs on kids so they can go murder innocents, and who is sick and tired of their shit.

Amazing there are people who support that terrorist shit stain, let alone in their avatar.

Brown for shit.

ForeverChiefs58
11-18-2012, 09:36 AM
Don't complain when they hit back.


JERUSALEM (AP) — Israel's military says Gaza militants have fired another rocket at Tel Aviv, but it was intercepted by the country's 'Iron Dome' missile defense system.

Police spokesman Micky Rosenfeld says two rockets were fired Sunday. It was impossible to immediately reconcile the reports.

The latest conflict between Israel and Palestinians in the Hamas-ruled Gaza Strip has seen Israel's heartland brought under long-range Palestinian rocket fire for the first time.


http://news.yahoo.com/israel-least-1-more-rocket-fired-tel-aviv-085836240.html

Direckshun
11-18-2012, 09:42 AM
Considering that Israel chose to leave Gaza, I don't see one being relevant today.

So you've turned a blind eye to settlement expansion.

Well, we've all got our ways of coping with cognitive dissonance.

Two is silly (as you more or less point out).

Not necessarily.

Israel doesn't need the Palestinians to recognize their existence for them to exist.

Palestine needs Israel to recognize their existence for them to actually exist.

That's the difference.

Well, they are going up against a more powerful state. It's quite simple: don't attack or paln to attack Israel, and their won't be a response, proportional or otherwise.

Doesn't change the fact that the responses are legitimately viewed as disproportional.

What exactly has Hamas done to show that they want peace with Israel?

Hamas doesn't want peace with Israel. A two-state solution means they end up out of power eventually.

A constant state of conflict is needed to keep them in power.

Direckshun
11-18-2012, 09:43 AM
This is no convincing of Direckshun on this issue....in his view Hamas is completely justified in targeting and launching rockets at women and children.

You are adorable.

Direckshun
11-18-2012, 09:46 AM
bullshit

there are, on average 3 rocket attacks per day (12000 rockets over last decade or so)

200 rockets were launched BEFORE Israel retaliated...(just in this last barrage over the last week or so...for 3 DAYS Israel did nothing but ask nicely for them to stop)

Come on man...

Why dont you admit the main 'provocation' is that Hamas is UNWILLING to acknowledge Israel's existance, and has 'no peace, no negotiations PERIOD' as mandates.

With the Hamas victory over Fatah (civil war in 06/07), and now Hamas' core group (the Muslim Brotherhood) coming in to so much power, they feel emboldened and now have a plentiful supply of longer range rockets.

Please at least be honest here.

I'm not denying that Hamas is a horrible organization that exploits the fears of the Palestinian people to fuel their own power. Never have.

This current conflict is a mishmash'd result of fire that Hamas and the IDF have been trading for weeks.

With no conceivable peace process in motion, and the UN vote around the corner, it has escalated.

To disasterous results that will be felt, first and foremost, by Palestinian civilians.

Donger
11-18-2012, 10:00 AM
So you've turned a blind eye to settlement expansion.

Well, we've all got our ways of coping with cognitive dissonance.

You are unaware that there are NO Israelis settlements in Gaza now?

Not necessarily.

Israel doesn't need the Palestinians to recognize their existence for them to exist.

Palestine needs Israel to recognize their existence for them to actually exist.

That's the difference.

They both exist. Israel has offered peace. The "Palestinians" including Hamas have rejected it because they won't accept Israel's right to exist.

Doesn't change the fact that the responses are legitimately viewed as disproportional.

Hamas doesn't want peace with Israel. A two-state solution means they end up out of power eventually.

A constant state of conflict is needed to keep them in power.

Yes, I know that Hamas and "the Palestinians" don't want peace with Israel.

Donger
11-18-2012, 10:01 AM
I'm not denying that Hamas is a horrible organization that exploits the fears of the Palestinian people to fuel their own power. Never have.

This current conflict is a mishmash'd result of fire that Hamas and the IDF have been trading for weeks.

With no conceivable peace process in motion, and the UN vote around the corner, it has escalated.

To disasterous results that will be felt, first and foremost, by Palestinian civilians.

Well, the Palestinian civilians shouldn't have voted in Hamas. They chose extremism and terrorists to be their leaders in Gaza.

Direckshun
11-18-2012, 10:03 AM
You are unaware that there are NO Israelis settlements in Gaza now?

So, yes, you've turned a blind eye to it.

Again, this isn't happening in a vacuum.

They both exist.

Liberal usage of the word "exist," there.

Donger
11-18-2012, 10:07 AM
So, yes, you've turned a blind eye to it.

Again, this isn't happening in a vacuum.

You weren't aware that there are no Israelis settlements in Gaza now because they were removed in yet another attempt at peace by Israel, which of course didn't work? Wow.

I personally don't agree with expanding settlements, but then again, the Palestinians and Hamas clearly don't give a shit if Israel stops and even removes existing ones, as demonstrated above.

Liberal usage of the word "exist," there.

I meant it in a literal sense, yes. Israelis exist and "Palestinians" exist. Neither are going to un-exist. Not unlike Americans and illegal immigrants.

ForeverChiefs58
11-18-2012, 10:12 AM
Please post link where Israel has refused to recognize their existence.



It is however a fact palestinians are taught to hate jews, and refuse to recognize their existence. Do you even acknowledge this hatred for jews as they are taught in the hadith and from the ones preaching them this hatred?

Or are you too busy enjoying your boat ride down the deNile river?

Easy 6
11-18-2012, 10:23 AM
Hamas doesn't want peace with Israel. A two-state solution means they end up out of power eventually.

A constant state of conflict is needed to keep them in power.

So israel is supposed to play nice and proportional with a group like that?

They need to be obliterated, even if the cost is high... your post helps prove this.

I agree though about israel often pushing its advantage by expanding settlements, that has to stop, they have enough of the pie.

Dylan
11-18-2012, 10:40 AM
Palestinians Celebrating 9/11

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/HRA0NKQ0k6E?feature=player_detailpage" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Dylan
11-18-2012, 11:05 AM
Let us not forget Hamas recruit and train suicide bombers in Palestine - Who Hamas sends to the Middle East and Southeast Asia countries to detonate themselves on crowded platforms.

And let us not forget, the IRA taught their IED techniques (roadside bomb) to the Palestine Liberation Organization and the knowledge spread to Iraq and other countries.

HonestChieffan
11-18-2012, 11:10 AM
Weasle words from the weak leader:

BANGKOK (AP) — President Barack Obama said Sunday an incursion by Israel’s forces into the Gaza Strip could only deepen its death toll, cautioning against an escalation even as he defended the Jewish state’s right to defend itself. Obama also warned Palestinians the crisis could crush peace hopes for years.

“Israel has every right to expect that it does not have missiles fired into its territory,” Obama said at the start of a three-nation tour in Asia.

“If that can be accomplished without a ramping up of military activity in Gaza, that’s preferable,” he said. “It’s not just preferable for the people of Gaza. It’s also preferable for Israelis, because if Israeli troops are in Gaza, they’re much more at risk of incurring fatalities or being wounded.”

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/A/AS_OBAMA?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2012-11-18-10-15-38


Translation...i have nobodys back and will condem Israel for bullying these poor folks.

From the hamas covenent:

Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it" (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp

Direckshun
11-18-2012, 11:17 AM
Well, the Palestinian civilians shouldn't have voted in Hamas. They chose extremism and terrorists to be their leaders in Gaza.

Right.

Not sure how that helps right now, but right.

Direckshun
11-18-2012, 11:20 AM
I personally don't agree with expanding settlements, but then again, the Palestinians and Hamas clearly don't give a shit if Israel stops and even removes existing ones, as demonstrated above.

Palestinians worry about getting their own, fairly divided state that honors history and religion.

Because you've stopped expanding in one area isn't that much of an olive branch when you expand in another area.

I meant it in a literal sense, yes. Israelis exist and "Palestinians" exist. Neither are going to un-exist.

You're making this conversation harder than it needs to be.

Direckshun
11-18-2012, 11:22 AM
So israel is supposed to play nice and proportional with a group like that?

They need to be obliterated, even if the cost is high... your post helps prove this.

I agree though about israel often pushing its advantage by expanding settlements, that has to stop, they have enough of the pie.

Then that's your stance. Gaza needs to be obliterated. That's on you.

My position is that Israel has attempted these sorts of ground invasions before with the stated goals of punishing Hamas and taking out their capability for these kinds of assaults.

Guess how that worked out.

HonestChieffan
11-18-2012, 11:26 AM
Reading through this I cannot find anyplace where peaceful coexistance is mentioned....

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp

It is really rather interesting to see what Hamas stands for and helps understand why Israel must at some point deal with Gaza.

Strategically, it is good to eliminate the threat from Gaza assuming they have to deal with the greater threat from Iran and Syria

HonestChieffan
11-18-2012, 11:28 AM
Then that's your stance. Gaza needs to be obliterated. That's on you.

My position is that Israel has attempted these sorts of ground invasions before with the stated goals of punishing Hamas and taking out their capability for these kinds of assaults.

Guess how that worked out.

Hamas is the issue not the people who could oppose them in Gaza. But Hamas killed thousands of those people to gain power.

Donger
11-18-2012, 11:31 AM
Right.

Not sure how that helps right now, but right.

It doesn't help at all, obviously.

Donger
11-18-2012, 11:33 AM
Palestinians worry about getting their own, fairly divided state that honors history and religion.

Because you've stopped expanding in one area isn't that much of an olive branch when you expand in another area.

Tell me, how does it compare to the olive branch(es) offered by the "Palestinians" or Hamas?

You're making this conversation harder than it needs to be.

Okay.

Direckshun
11-18-2012, 11:34 AM
It doesn't help at all, obviously.

This is productive!

Direckshun
11-18-2012, 11:35 AM
Tell me, how does it compare to the olive branch(es) offered by the "Palestinians" or Hamas?

Hamas actually has made efforts in previous ceasefires to clamp down on their various factions firing on Israel.

Hamas isn't the only entity between the two that's broken a ceasefire.

Direckshun
11-18-2012, 11:38 AM
Okay.

Just saying.

When I make this argument:

Not necessarily.

Israel doesn't need the Palestinians to recognize their existence for them to exist.

Palestine needs Israel to recognize their existence for them to actually exist.

And your response is:

Israelis exist and "Palestinians" exist. Neither are going to un-exist.

Then you're making this conversation harder than it needs to be.

HonestChieffan
11-18-2012, 11:40 AM
Hamas actually has made efforts in previous ceasefires to clamp down on their various factions firing on Israel.

Hamas isn't the only entity between the two that's broken a ceasefire.

Hamas openly states they will not accept attempts for ceasefires or peace agreements. The PLO may have tried to calm the Hamas organization but I dont believe for a minute that Hamas tried any such thing

Donger
11-18-2012, 12:13 PM
Just saying.

When I make this argument:



And your response is:



Then you're making this conversation harder than it needs to be.

It's pretty clear that both sides need to acknowledge both sides' right to exist. Now, which side do you think is more willing to do so? Israel or "the Palestinians" and Hamas?

Donger
11-18-2012, 12:14 PM
Hamas actually has made efforts in previous ceasefires to clamp down on their various factions firing on Israel.

Hamas isn't the only entity between the two that's broken a ceasefire.

No, what overtures of peace has Hamas made to Israel, and how do they compare to what Israel has done/offered?

ForeverChiefs58
11-18-2012, 01:06 PM
Hamas actually has made efforts in previous ceasefires to clamp down on their various factions firing on Israel.

Hamas isn't the only entity between the two that's broken a ceasefire.


Brown for bullshit.

Please provide a link to when in history Hamas has made so much effort, and Israel the one that has broken the ceasefire. Go ahead...everyone will wait.

ROYC75
11-18-2012, 03:24 PM
Hamas actually has made efforts in previous ceasefires to clamp down on their various factions firing on Israel.

Hamas isn't the only entity between the two that's broken a ceasefire.


History is clearly against you here.

mnchiefsguy
11-18-2012, 03:31 PM
Hamas actually has made efforts in previous ceasefires to clamp down on their various factions firing on Israel.

Hamas isn't the only entity between the two that's broken a ceasefire.

Link and proof, please.

HonestChieffan
11-18-2012, 03:48 PM
This came to an abrupt end for ole diewreck

Direckshun
11-18-2012, 05:02 PM
It's pretty clear that both sides need to acknowledge both sides' right to exist. Now, which side do you think is more willing to do so? Israel or "the Palestinians" and Hamas?

Neither side is remotely willing.

mnchiefsguy
11-18-2012, 05:05 PM
Neither side is remotely willing.

That is not true and you know it. Israel has consistently been willing to compromise. If the Palestinians had taken the deal that Israel and Bill Clinton offered them at the end of his second term, they would have their state right now. Funny how that deal is often forgotten.

Direckshun
11-18-2012, 05:05 PM
No, what overtures of peace has Hamas made to Israel, and how do they compare to what Israel has done/offered?

Hamas hasn't made overtures of peace. Peace is bad for business if you're Hamas.

They have agreed to ceasefires, and have made efforts clamping down on their various militant factions during ceasefires.

Direckshun
11-18-2012, 05:08 PM
Link and proof, please.

That Israel has broken ceasefires before? I'm confused, I didn't even think that was remotely in question.

A simple Google search turns up several examples. 2009 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KntmpoRXFX4). 2011 (http://www.csmonitor.com/World/terrorism-security/2011/1030/Israeli-airstrike-breaks-brief-Israel-Gaza-cease-fire). Several days ago (http://www.democracynow.org/2012/11/15/breaking_truce_israeli_strikes_kill_moderate). This isn't new information.

Are you actually arguing that Israel has never broken a ceasefire?

Direckshun
11-18-2012, 05:10 PM
That is not true and you know it. Israel has consistently been willing to compromise. If the Palestinians had taken the deal that Israel and Bill Clinton offered them at the end of his second term, they would have their state right now. Funny how that deal is often forgotten.

Two state solution, based on the '67 borders with agreed landswapping, with a demilitarized Palestinian state.

Do you think either one of these parties want this agreement?

Israel, no. Because the Netanyahu administration does not want a two-state solution. They want all of Israel.

Hamas, no. Because Hamas clings to power only so long as the Palestinians are terrified. Peace is bad for business.

ROYC75
11-18-2012, 05:16 PM
That is not true and you know it. Israel has consistently been willing to compromise. If the Palestinians had taken the deal that Israel and Bill Clinton offered them at the end of his second term, they would have their state right now. Funny how that deal is often forgotten.

3 times since 1948 Palestine has had their land given to them and it's never enough. Radical Palestinians want more land, they want it all and death to Israel.

Need we say more ?

mnchiefsguy
11-18-2012, 05:17 PM
Two state solution, based on the '67 borders with agreed landswapping, with a demilitarized Palestinian state.

Do you think either one of these parties want this agreement?

Israel, no. Because the Netanyahu administration does not want a two-state solution. They want all of Israel.

Hamas, no. Because Hamas clings to power only so long as the Palestinians are terrified. Peace is bad for business.

Then Hamas being eliminated is good for the peace process, no?

Direckshun
11-18-2012, 05:20 PM
Then Hamas being eliminated is good for the peace process, no?

I don't know how you plan to do that in a way that doesn't kill thousands of Palestinian civilians. Doing so only radicalizes the Palestinian population further and further erodes the conduit to compromise. Then the very next radical organization looks to fills Hamas' shoes and badda bing, badda boom, we're back to where we started. It's not like Hamas is doing anything particularly challenging or complicated.

ROYC75
11-18-2012, 05:26 PM
I don't know how you plan to do that in a way that doesn't kill thousands of Palestinian civilians.

Call him up and tell him to stop hiding in the general public as a human shield.

BucEyedPea
11-18-2012, 05:29 PM
Then Hamas being eliminated is good for the peace process, no?
Bush pushed for elections and Hamas was elected.

I read the leader was calling for a truce and then things escalated with him being killed by the Israeli's. Speculation is are two that I've read: Bibi is doing it for his reelection and/or he is doing it because Obama was going to negotiate with Iran. ( Haaretz) This will prevent the latter. The man represents the extremists on the Israeli side of that conflict.

ForeverChiefs58
11-18-2012, 06:00 PM
Bush pushed for elections and Hamas was elected.

I read the leader was calling for a truce and then things escalated with him being killed by the Israeli's. Speculation is are two that I've read: Bibi is doing it for his reelection and/or he is doing it because Obama was going to negotiate with Iran. ( Haaretz) This will prevent the latter. The man represents the extremists on the Israeli side of that conflict.

Batshit crazy...your table is ready.

HonestChieffan
11-18-2012, 06:08 PM
Batshit crazy...your table is ready.

Aint that sumpthin

RedNeckRaider
11-18-2012, 06:25 PM
Batshit crazy...your table is ready.

She is a total train wreck lol~

mnchiefsguy
11-18-2012, 07:12 PM
I don't know how you plan to do that in a way that doesn't kill thousands of Palestinian civilians. Doing so only radicalizes the Palestinian population further and further erodes the conduit to compromise. Then the very next radical organization looks to fills Hamas' shoes and badda bing, badda boom, we're back to where we started. It's not like Hamas is doing anything particularly challenging or complicated.

Well, if Hamas does not want peace, and whomever replaces them in the Palestinian government does want peace, then it is pretty easy to say that Israel is not the problem, isn't it.

Your own statements show that the Palestinians would rather wipe out Israel than have their own state. Until that attitude changes, there will be no peace. And the Palestinians will have brought it upon themselves.

BucEyedPea
11-18-2012, 07:28 PM
Batshit crazy...your table is ready.

No people who support your FP are batshit crazy. That's why they call others derogatory names.
You'd burn a Quaker at the stake for being anti-war. That's your idea of sanity.
The American people are tired of your ilk and tired of war. I am one of the many.

BucEyedPea
11-18-2012, 07:32 PM
Aint that sumpthin

That was reported in Haaretz. You have to register to see it though.

ROYC75
11-18-2012, 07:37 PM
Does anybody know if Direckshun is a Palestinian?

HonestChieffan
11-18-2012, 07:48 PM
Does anybody know if Direckshun is a Palestinian?

He is an internet poster of unknown anything other than a screaming liberal. Smart guy, just liberal and dedicated to whatever he is fed by his handlers

RedNeckRaider
11-18-2012, 07:52 PM
He is an internet poster of unknown anything other than a screaming liberal. Smart guy, just liberal and dedicated to whatever he is fed by his handlers

He is from Springfield Missouri I think~

ROYC75
11-18-2012, 07:59 PM
He is from Springfield Missouri I think~

That much I knew.....

Direckshun
11-18-2012, 08:30 PM
Well, if Hamas does not want peace, and whomever replaces them in the Palestinian government does want peace, then it is pretty easy to say that Israel is not the problem, isn't it.

Israel is not *the* problem. The problem is shared.

RedNeckRaider
11-18-2012, 08:34 PM
Israel is not *the* problem. The problem is shared.

The problem is easy to solve. There is plenty of room for both. However both sides think a god gave them title to the land. So fuck it let them fight it out~

Direckshun
11-18-2012, 08:36 PM
The problem is easy to solve. There is plenty of room for both. However both sides think a god gave them title to the land. So **** it let them fight it out~

How about share the land in accordance with a land arrangement both sides have been good with for fifty years?

'67 borders, land swaps, demilitarized Palestine. Share Jerusalem.

Fight the bloodshed. Don't facilitate it.

ForeverChiefs58
11-18-2012, 08:38 PM
That Israel has broken ceasefires before? I'm confused, I didn't even think that was remotely in question.

A simple Google search turns up several examples. 2009 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KntmpoRXFX4). 2011 (http://www.csmonitor.com/World/terrorism-security/2011/1030/Israeli-airstrike-breaks-brief-Israel-Gaza-cease-fire). Several days ago (http://www.democracynow.org/2012/11/15/breaking_truce_israeli_strikes_kill_moderate). This isn't new information.
Are you actually arguing that Israel has never broken a ceasefire?

It's pretty new when you just make up shit as you go. You would believe anything that was antisemetic wouldn't you? Israel only responds to threats, or to stop threats. They don't have the same savagery or religious duty calling on them to kill innocents.

Anyone that CLAIMS to even like the palestinians has to hate all their leaders. You have to hate Hamas, PLO and every other faction and everything they stand for period. Otherwise you are a yapping with a clown suit on. Hamas and the PLO have done nothing but slam the door on any peace, and shit on everyone who doesn't support terrorists.

Unless you simply hate jews, you have to hate palestinian leadership for what you would think they have done to the people. They have done far worse to their own people than any jew or infidel could ever do, right?

RedNeckRaider
11-18-2012, 08:40 PM
How about share the land in accordance with a land arrangement both sides have been good with for fifty years?

'67 borders, land swaps, demilitarized Palestine. Share Jerusalem.

Fight the bloodshed. Don't facilitate it.

The only reason and I mean the only reason I side with Israel is because they do not threaten to kill me for not believing their bullshit beliefs~

HonestChieffan
11-18-2012, 08:49 PM
How about share the land in accordance with a land arrangement both sides have been good with for fifty years?

'67 borders, land swaps, demilitarized Palestine. Share Jerusalem.

Fight the bloodshed. Don't facilitate it.

Reality must scare the shit out of you

mnchiefsguy
11-18-2012, 09:50 PM
Israel is not *the* problem. The problem is shared.

Israel has offered to meet them more than half way many, many, many times.

Israel does not intentionally target women and children.

They are not the problem.

There is no shared problem. Until the Palestinians step forward and leave their thirst for violence and their quest for genocide behind and join the civilized world....they are most certainly the problem.

Direckshun
11-19-2012, 06:06 AM
Israel has offered to meet them more than half way many, many, many times.

Then why not do so now?

You act as their surrogate, right now: let's do the '67 borders with land swaps.

Deal?

Israel does not intentionally target women and children.

Things are soooo simple in your world.

Israel knows that they kill more Palestinian women and children every time they launch one of these ill-fated ground invasions then they will ever have to suffer themselves. They know this. How could they not.

They know that if they lob a missile into Palestine, women and children will die.

So when Hamas sends a rocket that doesn't even have a warhead, gets intercepted by Israel's defense shield or just piffles out in the sky without causing any damage, lobbing a missile in retaliation for basically nothing with something that is sure to kill civilians is disproportionate, brutal violence.

They are not the problem.

There is no shared problem. Until the Palestinians step forward and leave their thirst for violence and their quest for genocide behind and join the civilized world....they are most certainly the problem.

The halo you put around Israel's head is amusing, I'll admit.

They're not innocent in this. Netanyahu wants all of Israel, and he does not want to share it.

ForeverChiefs58
11-19-2012, 07:53 AM
Then why not do so now?

You act as their surrogate, right now: let's do the '67 borders with land swaps.

Deal?



Things are soooo simple in your world.

Israel knows that they kill more Palestinian women and children every time they launch one of these ill-fated ground invasions then they will ever have to suffer themselves. They know this. How could they not.

They know that if they lob a missile into Palestine, women and children will die.

So when Hamas sends a rocket that doesn't even have a warhead, gets intercepted by Israel's defense shield or just piffles out in the sky without causing any damage, lobbing a missile in retaliation for basically nothing with something that is sure to kill civilians is disproportionate, brutal violence.



The halo you put around Israel's head is amusing, I'll admit.

They're not innocent in this. The Palestinians wants all of Israel, and they do not want to share it, and they openly share these feelings and only a big dumbass would think they are just bluffing.

FYP, but you are too blind or on the crack to get it.

Israel knows innocent people will die with ground troops, which is why they hold off so long before doing it. They at least give peace a chance to stop the damn rockets falling on their citizens. Only after they are unable to get anyone to stop the firing of rockets at their random citizens.

How can you bitch about disproportionate, brutal violence, when the palestinians are constantly firing rocket attacks and suicide bombings on random citizens? Often involving children...on purpose. You won't complain about that, only that when Israel punched back you didn't like it? That sounds like a dumbass pussy to me.

Just 1 citizens being killed, is too many you fucking dolt. It doesn't matter if you and your palestinians don't think it is a big deal. If the rockets aren't that big a deal and don't do much then why use not simply just stop them? Especially when you are aware of what will happen when you launch them.

No country will just sit there and let someone constantly try and kill their citizens but not do anything because they are just poor and stupid and don't think it is that big a deal.

If Mexico tried that shit we would be calling for all of their heads.

What is also amusing is that you think the palestinians want '67 borders with land swaps. They don't. They have rejected that over and over.

They want all of Israel period. It's sad that you don't believe the palestinians when they say it. You think they are just joking around about wanting all of Israel and to kill all the jews?

You really should lay off the crack

ForeverChiefs58
11-19-2012, 08:05 AM
who?

Saulbadguy
11-19-2012, 08:07 AM
I'm ready for the United States to have 0 interest in what goes on in Israel.

stevieray
11-19-2012, 08:19 AM
let's do the '67 borders
see, this is what sneaks out every once in a while, but he'll NEVER say why.,..

you know why?...Because Jerusalem is their capital, it's where prophecy states Christ will sit on the throne of David...and he just can't have that...it also puts Israel in a vice of nine miles, and makes it much easier to destroy them.


the most adorable part is he'll trot out some half hearted BS line about how Hamas is bad, but then spend countless time telling you how REALLY bad Israel is...it's a burdensome stone to him, and he's unknowingly just playing his part in prophecy trying to live vicariously through another "victim"...

patteeu
11-19-2012, 08:24 AM
How about share the land in accordance with a land arrangement both sides have been good with for fifty years?

'67 borders, land swaps, demilitarized Palestine. Share Jerusalem.

Fight the bloodshed. Don't facilitate it.

The first and most important reason that can't work is the palestinian side has no interest in peace according to those terms.

Donger
11-19-2012, 08:42 AM
Then why not do so now?

You act as their surrogate, right now: let's do the '67 borders with land swaps.

Deal?

What makes you think that the Palestinians and Hamas would accept that?

KILLER_CLOWN
11-19-2012, 08:43 AM
see, this is what sneaks out every once in a while, but he'll NEVER say why.,..

you know why?...Because Jerusalem is their capital, it's where prophecy states Christ will sit on the throne of David...and he just can't have that...it also puts Israel in a vice of nine miles, and makes it much easier to destroy them.


the most adorable part is he'll trot out some half hearted BS line about how Hamas is bad, but then spend countless time telling you how REALLY bad Israel is...it's a burdensome stone to him, and he's unknowingly just playing his part in prophecy trying to live vicariously through another "victim"...

New Jerusalem, not the physical place. Christ is already on the throne of David.

stevieray
11-19-2012, 08:47 AM
Christ is already on the throne of David.
no, sorry.

Direckshun
11-19-2012, 08:48 AM
The first and most important reason that can't work is the palestinian side has no interest in peace according to those terms.

What makes you think that the Palestinians and Hamas would accept that?

So you'd be down for it?

KILLER_CLOWN
11-19-2012, 08:59 AM
no, sorry.

This happened at the cross.

stevieray
11-19-2012, 09:06 AM
This happened at the cross.
how do you come to that conclusion?

Donger
11-19-2012, 09:32 AM
So you'd be down for it?

What makes you think that the Palestinians and Hamas would accept what you proposed?

patteeu
11-19-2012, 09:44 AM
So you'd be down for it?

You haven't established what the land swaps would be. But that's not important because we know that the palestinians don't want peace.

HonestChieffan
11-19-2012, 12:20 PM
Meanwhile, the peace loving people of Gaza rocket fire two schools as a sign they would love a sit down and tea with their Jewish friends....

http://www.timesofisrael.com/all-eyes-on-cairo-ahead-of-gaza-ground-incursion/

http://www.timesofisrael.com/all-eyes-on-cairo-ahead-of-gaza-ground-incursion/

mnchiefsguy
11-19-2012, 12:57 PM
You are pretty amusing yourself Direckshun. The fact that you cannot tell the difference between collateral damage and intentionally targeting women and children is very telling.

Israel is not perfect, but they are on the right side of this conflict.

You can be a Muslin and live peacefully in Israel. Can you be a Jew and survive Gaza?

Nafman87
11-19-2012, 01:03 PM
I have been on this site for a while just reading threads and posts by other people. I am a huge chiefs fan that lives in Israel. I served in the Israeli army for 3 years as a tank driver and a medic.
It makes me sad to see how people really can't see the truth in the Israeli Palestinian situation. The Israeli citizens in the south are constantly living in fear because of all the rockets that Hamas has been shooting at their homes, schools, places of work, public parks.

Believe me Israel would love nothing more than live in peace with the Palestinians. I was in the previous operation in gaze in 2009 and am waiting to get the call for reserves any day now.

Unlike Hamas we don't use our woman and children as human shields. We are defending our country just like any other country would in our situation.

patteeu
11-19-2012, 01:10 PM
You are pretty amusing yourself Direckshun. The fact that you cannot tell the difference between collateral damage and intentionally targeting women and children is very telling.

Israel is not perfect, but they are on the right side of this conflict.

You can be a Muslin and live peacefully in Israel. Can you be a Jew and survive Gaza?

Not to mention the fact that collateral damage is what it is not because of carelessness or indifference on the part of the Israelis but because Hamas intentionally uses civilians as shields in a conscious effort to increase such damage.

patteeu
11-19-2012, 01:13 PM
I have been on this site for a while just reading threads and posts by other people. I am a huge chiefs fan that lives in Israel. I served in the Israeli army for 3 years as a tank driver and a medic.
It makes me sad to see how people really can't see the truth in the Israeli Palestinian situation. The Israeli citizens in the south are constantly living in fear because of all the rockets that Hamas has been shooting at their homes, schools, places of work, public parks.

Believe me Israel would love nothing more than live in peace with the Palestinians. I was in the previous operation in gaze in 2009 and am waiting to get the call for reserves any day now.

Unlike Hamas we don't use our woman and children as human shields. We are defending our country just like any other country would in our situation.

Some of us have at least a remedial appreciation of your situation. We apologize for the Direckshuns among us. Good luck to you and all the other peace seekers in the area and may you and yours remain safe.

ForeverChiefs58
11-19-2012, 01:53 PM
I have been on this site for a while just reading threads and posts by other people. I am a huge chiefs fan that lives in Israel. I served in the Israeli army for 3 years as a tank driver and a medic.
It makes me sad to see how people really can't see the truth in the Israeli Palestinian situation. The Israeli citizens in the south are constantly living in fear because of all the rockets that Hamas has been shooting at their homes, schools, places of work, public parks.

Believe me Israel would love nothing more than live in peace with the Palestinians. I was in the previous operation in gaze in 2009 and am waiting to get the call for reserves any day now.

Unlike Hamas we don't use our woman and children as human shields. We are defending our country just like any other country would in our situation.


Very cool. What do you see are the obviously biggest obstacles to peace?

Nafman87
11-19-2012, 02:08 PM
Very cool. What do you see are the obviously biggest obstacles to peace?

Israel is surrounded by enemies. From the north to the south to the east. All we want us peace. We want to be able to live our life not having to worry that at any moment we will be attacked by Gaza or Lebanon or Syria or Iran or Egypt. And so on and so on. If the Arab countries would just learn to live with the fact that us, the Jews, also deserve a country where we can live in peace. Then there will be peace.

For some reason the world always makes us look like the bad guys. It's crazy that these terrorists in Gaza can shoot rockets at our civilians for years. Then once the IDF finally defends its country we are the bad guys.

BucEyedPea
11-19-2012, 02:17 PM
Israel is surrounded by enemies.
Why do you want to live there, if that's the case? Doesn't seem like you're ever going to be able to live your life free from attack.
That stems from the history of the area, not because of who you are.


For some reason the world always makes us look like the bad guys. It's crazy that these terrorists in Gaza can shoot rockets at our civilians for years. Then once the IDF finally defends its country we are the bad guys.

I don't think the "world" makes you look like the bad guys. That's a broad brush.

Nafman87
11-19-2012, 02:35 PM
Why do you want to live there, if that's the case? Doesn't seem like you're ever going to be able to live your life free from attack.
The stems from the history of the area, not because of who you are.


I don't think the "world" makes you look like the bad guys. That's a broad brush.

I live here because I am a Zionist and believe that Israel is the Jewish state. There are many Arabs that live in peace Amongst us. Then there are the terrorists who commit acts of terror on innocent civilians. Whether it be suicide bombers or shooting missiles at us. What most of the world don't know is that there are attempts at terror attacks weekly that are caught in time by the IDF.

I will never leave this country because I believe that one day we can live in peace.

You are right, I overreacted by saying the whole world makes us look bad. The fact is that I just don't understand how ppl some ppl can call us the terrorists or "the bad ones" in this situation.

We sit quietly while we are bombed for years. Then one day we can't take it anymore, and we finally fight back. We are the victims here.

HonestChieffan
11-19-2012, 03:09 PM
I live here because I am a Zionist and believe that Israel is the Jewish state. There are many Arabs that live in peace Amongst us. Then there are the terrorists who commit acts of terror on innocent civilians. Whether it be suicide bombers or shooting missiles at us. What most of the world don't know is that there are attempts at terror attacks weekly that are caught in time by the IDF.

I will never leave this country because I believe that one day we can live in peace.

You are right, I overreacted by saying the whole world makes us look bad. The fact is that I just don't understand how ppl some ppl can call us the terrorists or "the bad ones" in this situation.

We sit quietly while we are bombed for years. Then one day we can't take it anymore, and we finally fight back. We are the victims here.

Never forget, the media is not interested in the truth, they are interested in telling a story. Stay strong.

BucEyedPea
11-19-2012, 03:11 PM
Never forget, the media is not interested in the truth, they are interested in telling a story. Stay strong.

The media here is not anti-Israel.

HonestChieffan
11-19-2012, 03:18 PM
The media here is not anti-Israel.

Really?

ForeverChiefs58
11-19-2012, 03:31 PM
The media here is not anti-Israel.


The vioces in your head told you that. Of course they probably told you that you're not either.

BucEyedPea
11-19-2012, 03:35 PM
Really?

Do you think Fox News is anti-Israel?

Nafman87
11-19-2012, 03:37 PM
Do you think Fox News is anti-Israel?

No. Fox News is not. CNN BBC they are definitely

BucEyedPea
11-19-2012, 03:39 PM
I don't define “anti-Israel” as hostility merely to a particular Israeli policy or leader, but to Israel itself. That's what it means. I see little evidence for the the latter, than the former..

Tell me why some American Jews here don't always take the side of Israel on certain policies or leaders?

RedNeckRaider
11-19-2012, 03:41 PM
Do you think Fox News is anti-Israel?

No FOX news (using the term news loosely) is anti reality~

Nafman87
11-19-2012, 03:45 PM
Do you think Fox News is anti-Israel?

I don't define “anti-Israel” as hostility merely to a particular Israeli policy or leader, but to Israel itself. That's what it means. I see little evidence for the the latter, than the former..

Tell me why some American Jews here don't always take the side of Israel on certain policies or leaders?

Because American Jews watch the same news that you do, and don't get the full truth. I have seen many anerican Jews who have never been to Israel not take Israel's side, then they come on a visit for the first time and see the truth.
I recommend u do the same. Come to Israel, it is a beautiful country.

BucEyedPea
11-19-2012, 03:49 PM
Because American Jews watch the same news that you do, and don't get the full truth. I have seen many anerican Jews who have never been to Israel not take Israel's side, then they come on a visit for the first time and see the truth.
I recommend u do the same. Come to Israel, it is a beautiful country.

To know the truth requires knowing the whole history—including before WWII.
But I don't watch our msm much.

Love to go, but not in the current environment. Been to Egypt though. But I do have liberal Jewish friends who have been there ( who have criticized it at times) and work with two sometimes, who are from there.


BTW, did you see the controversial tweet by Murdoch:

“Why Is Jewish owned press so consistently anti-Israel in every crisis?”

http://www.truthdig.com/eartotheground/item/murdochs_tweet_on_jewish_owned_press_ignites_firestorm_of_controversy_20121/

BucEyedPea
11-19-2012, 03:53 PM
Oh, and as far as I've heard, Israelis argue, fight and disagree on their own govt regularly.

vailpass
11-19-2012, 03:57 PM
So you've turned a blind eye to settlement expansion.

Well, we've all got our ways of coping with cognitive dissonance.



Not necessarily.

Israel doesn't need the Palestinians to recognize their existence for them to exist.

Palestine needs Israel to recognize their existence for them to actually exist.

That's the difference.



Doesn't change the fact that the responses are legitimately viewed as disproportional.



Hamas doesn't want peace with Israel. A two-state solution means they end up out of power eventually.

A constant state of conflict is needed to keep them in power.

Direckshun is a supporter of the Hamas terrorists. Big surprise.

vailpass
11-19-2012, 03:59 PM
Some of us have at least a remedial appreciation of your situation. We apologize for the Direckshuns among us. Good luck to you and all the other peace seekers in the area and may you and yours remain safe.

This^

Donger
11-19-2012, 03:59 PM
Oh, and as far as I've heard, Israelis argue, fight and disagree on their own govt regularly.

No way!

Nafman87
11-19-2012, 04:00 PM
Oh, and as far as I've heard, Israelis argue, fight and disagree on their own govt regularly.

Ya it's called democracy

vailpass
11-19-2012, 04:00 PM
Ya it's called democracy

LMAO

HonestChieffan
11-19-2012, 04:02 PM
Ya it's called democracy

Touchdown!!!!!!

Donger
11-19-2012, 04:03 PM
Ya it's called democracy

LMAO

BucEyedPea
11-19-2012, 04:04 PM
Ya it's called democracy

It is? Well, then, I am not a fan of democracy. Our Framers weren't either. I think it's the worst form of govt. I don't think what I posted is what defines democracy though. That happens in this here, republic too.

BucEyedPea
11-19-2012, 04:04 PM
Touchdown!!!!!!

Nope, more like a penalty.

Donger
11-19-2012, 04:05 PM
It is? Well, then, I am not a fan of democracy. Our Framers weren't either. I think it's the worst form of govt. I don't think what I posted is what defines democracy though. That happens in this here, republic too.

Oh Lord, here we go again...

ForeverChiefs58
11-19-2012, 04:06 PM
Israeli offensive in Gaza was years in the making



JERUSALEM (AP) — With little notice, Israel has launched a blistering air offensive against the Gaza Strip's ruling Hamas militant group. Here's a look at why the violence erupted, the goals of the warring sides and how it may end:

Lightning Strike: Israel opened its offensive with a surprise airstrike on Nov. 14 that killed the shadowy leader of Hamas' military wing. Since then, it has carried out hundreds of airstrikes in what it says is a systematic campaign to halt years of rocket attacks launched from Gaza. While Israel claims to have inflicted heavy damage, dozens of rockets have continued to fly out of Gaza each day.

Why Now? Israel launched the operation in response to days of rocket attacks out of Gaza, highlighted by a rare missile strike on an Israeli military jeep that wounded four soldiers. But the operation was actually years in the making. Since a previous Israeli offensive four years ago, Hamas has restocked its arsenal with more sophisticated and powerful weapons smuggled in from Egypt through underground tunnels. After a lull following Israel's previous offensive, rocket fire has steadily climbed the past two years. The Israeli military says more than 700 rockets were launched into Israel this year before it launched the offensive last week. In this environment, Israeli officials have said it was only a matter of time before a new round of fighting broke out.

The battlefield: Hamas seized control of Gaza, a densely populated strip of land sandwiched between southern Israel and Egypt's Sinai desert, five years ago from the rival Fatah movement of Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas. Hamas, a militant group sworn to Israel's destruction, has developed its rocket arsenal to the point where nearly half of Israel's population is in range.

http://news.yahoo.com/israeli-offensive-gaza-years-making-195916153.html

BucEyedPea
11-19-2012, 04:13 PM
Oh Lord, here we go again...

Not if you just shut up.

Donger
11-19-2012, 04:14 PM
Not if you just shut up.

Stop staying stupid crap and you won't hear a peep out of me, sugar.

La literatura
11-19-2012, 04:15 PM
I live here because I am a Zionist and believe that Israel is the Jewish state. There are many Arabs that live in peace Amongst us. Then there are the terrorists who commit acts of terror on innocent civilians. Whether it be suicide bombers or shooting missiles at us. What most of the world don't know is that there are attempts at terror attacks weekly that are caught in time by the IDF.

I will never leave this country because I believe that one day we can live in peace.

You are right, I overreacted by saying the whole world makes us look bad. The fact is that I just don't understand how ppl some ppl can call us the terrorists or "the bad ones" in this situation.

We sit quietly while we are bombed for years. Then one day we can't take it anymore, and we finally fight back. We are the victims here.

Sorry, I like Israel just fine, but let's not pretend your country is completely innocent. Why the continued settlements, and even more, the expansion of settlements in the West Bank? Apparently, our President isn't really bothered by that anymore, but some of us still think it's a significant impediment to peace.

I don't think there's any perception that Israel is the terrorists, by the way. Who needs terrorism when you have your military and our backing? I think most of America is on the side of Israel in this conflict.

Anyway, stay safe. I sincerely hope Hamas and the Palestinians quit acting stupidly and end this conflict. It's damn near impossible to have any sympathy for their continued troubles when their leadership engages in these sort of actions.

RedNeckRaider
11-19-2012, 04:15 PM
Stop staying stupid crap and you won't hear a peep out of me, sugar.

LMAO

go bowe
11-19-2012, 04:17 PM
Direckshun is a supporter of the Hamas terrorists. Big surprise.

the last part of his post that you quoted: Hamas doesn't want peace with Israel. A two-state solution means they end up out of power eventually.

A constant state of conflict is needed to keep them in power.

doesn't sound much like a supporter of hamas to me...

sympathetic to palestinian concerns? sure...

a supporter of hamas? not so much...

Nafman87
11-19-2012, 04:19 PM
Sorry, I like Israel just fine, but let's not pretend your country is completely innocent. Why the continued settlements, and even more, the expansion of settlements in the West Bank? Apparently, our President isn't really bothered by that anymore, but some of us still think it's a significant impediment to peace.

I don't think there's any perception that Israel is the terrorists, by the way. Who needs terrorism when you have your military and our backing? I think most of America is on the side of Israel in this conflict.

Anyway, stay safe. I sincerely hope Hamas and the Palestinians quit acting stupidly and end this conflict. It's damn near impossible to have any sympathy for their continued troubles when their leadership engages in these sort of actions.

Israel pulled out of the West Bank in 2005

vailpass
11-19-2012, 04:21 PM
the last part of his post that you quoted:

doesn't sound much like a supporter of hamas to me...

sympathetic to palestinian concerns? sure...

a supporter of hamas? not so much...

His body of work, when taken as a whole, paints a different picture. He.she/it's one-off "Hamas is bad" comments are surrounded by incidents and allegations that show his sympathies to lie clearly with Palestine and Hamas.

ForeverChiefs58
11-19-2012, 04:22 PM
His body of work, when taken as a whole, paints a different picture. His one-off "Hamas is bad" comments are surrounded by incidents and allegations that show his sympathies to lie clearly with Palestine and Hamas.

This.

vailpass
11-19-2012, 04:22 PM
Israel pulled out of the West Bank in 2005

So you know with whom you are conversing: Literature is a college kid in Iowa who has never held a real job or served in the military.

This does not stop him from trying to give advice based on experiences he's never had; and which he may or not have read about in a book.

Donger
11-19-2012, 04:25 PM
Israel pulled out of the West Bank in 2005

There are still settlements in the West Bank though, right?

La literatura
11-19-2012, 04:26 PM
Israel pulled out of the West Bank in 2005

Have Israeli outposts expanded in the West Bank since 2005?

go bowe
11-19-2012, 04:26 PM
His body of work, when taken as a whole, paints a different picture. His one-off "Hamas is bad" comments are surrounded by incidents and allegations that show his sympathies to lie clearly with Palestine and Hamas.

i'll give you the sympathy wrt palestine/palestinians part, hell, i am sympathetic to the palestinian plight...

but from my perspective his body of work doesn't necessarily reflect overt support for hamas politically or otherwise; of course ymmv...

go bowe
11-19-2012, 04:28 PM
Israel pulled out of the West Bank in 2005

i'd be interested to know your opinion of the ongoing expansion of the west bank settlements...

La literatura
11-19-2012, 04:29 PM
So you know with whom you are conversing: Literature is a college kid in Iowa who has never held a real job or served in the military.

This does not stop him from trying to give advice based on experiences he's never had; and which he may or not have read about in a book.

Other disclosures: vailpass can't find Israel on a map of the Middle East.

vailpass
11-19-2012, 04:33 PM
i'll give you the sympathy wrt palestine/palestinians part, hell, i am sympathetic to the palestinian plight...

but from my perspective his body of work doesn't necessarily reflect overt support for hamas politically or otherwise; of course ymmv...

Fair enough Bowe; your is usually a more balanced, less biased view than mine.

Direckshun's attempts to justify the terrorist actions of Hamas constitute, to me, tacit support.
At least that's the way it looks in the 30 seconds I've taken to read that goofy bastard's posts on the subject. Which is about 25 more seconds than he/she/it merits IMHO.

Nafman87
11-19-2012, 04:34 PM
Yes Israel pulled out of Gaza in 2005. The West Bank is settled by both Jews and Arabs.

Pitt Gorilla
11-19-2012, 04:34 PM
So you know with whom you are conversing: Literature is a college kid in Iowa who has never held a real job or served in the military.

This does not stop him from trying to give advice based on experiences he's never had; and which he may or not have read about in a book.And he lives in your head.

go bowe
11-19-2012, 04:36 PM
Fair enough Bowe; your is usually a more balanced, less biased view than mine.

Direckshun's attempts to justify the terrorist actions of Hamas constitute, to me, tacit support.
At least that's the way it looks in the 30 seconds I've taken to read that goofy bastard's posts on the subject. Which is about 25 more seconds than he/she/it merits IMHO.

LMAO LMAO LMAO LMAO LMAO LMAO LMAO

vailpass
11-19-2012, 04:36 PM
Other disclosures: vailpass can't find Israel on a map of the Middle East.

Other disclosures: Literature is a candy ass who resorts to attempts to belittle the intelligence of his antagonists when he has no other recourse.

La literatura
11-19-2012, 04:37 PM
Yes Israel pulled out of Gaza in 2005. The West Bank is settled by both Jews and Arabs.

About half a million Jews in the West Bank, correct?

vailpass
11-19-2012, 04:38 PM
And he lives in your head.

Seriously? You pull that tired meme out? In the words of obama supporters everywhere: I deserve better.

go bowe
11-19-2012, 04:40 PM
Other disclosures: Literature is a candy ass who resorts to attempts to belittle the intelligence of his antagonists when he has no other recourse.

hold on there, buddy...

it's not a disclosure when it's already obvious to whoever reads his posts, is it? :p

Nafman87
11-19-2012, 04:40 PM
About half a million Jews in the West Bank, correct?

Around 350,000

go bowe
11-19-2012, 04:43 PM
Seriously? You pull that tired meme out? In the words of obama supporters everywhere: I deserve better.

you obviously have confused obama supporters with the save our chiefs movement - we deserve better is soc, obama supporters is gimme my stuff... ;)

go bowe
11-19-2012, 04:44 PM
Around 350,000

how many of those live in settlements?

and what is your view of continuing expansion of settlements?

La literatura
11-19-2012, 04:46 PM
Around 350,000

Okay, but including East Jerusalem, it's about half a million, is my understanding. And importantly, that's an expansion of, say, 2005, right?

La literatura
11-19-2012, 04:57 PM
Well, anyway, stay safe. No civilian from either side should be hurt.

vailpass
11-19-2012, 05:14 PM
hold on there, buddy...

it's not a disclosure when it's already obvious to whoever reads his posts, is it? :p

:D

BucEyedPea
11-19-2012, 05:27 PM
Stop speaking truth and you won't hear a peep out of me, sugar.

FYP

ForeverChiefs58
11-19-2012, 05:32 PM
Israel cannot even try and protect itself without some idiot terrorist supporters condemning them.


To protest Israel's Gaza offensive, 'Anonymous' launches millions of cyberattacks


JERUSALEM - A concerted effort of millions of attempts to cripple Israeli websites during the Gaza conflict has failed, Israel's finance minister said Monday, claiming that the only site that was successfully hacked was back up within minutes.

Cyber security experts said that such hacking attempts have become a new aspect of modern-day warfare and states have to invest in fortifying their virtual defences on a battleground with vague terrain.

Israel regularly fights off hundreds of hacking attempts every day, but nothing on the scale of the recent torrent of attacks.

The online group Anonymous and other protesters have barraged Israel with more than 60 million hacking attempts, according to the finance minister, Yuval Steinitz.

To counter the threat, Steinitz said, the government is working in "emergency mode." He claimed all but one of the attacks has been fended off, and that one knocked a website offline for only 10 minutes.

Anonymous - the multifaceted movement of online rebels and self-described "hacktivists," spearheaded the campaign against Israel, distributing press releases and videos denouncing what it described as an "insane attack" against Gaza. The cyber onslaught began after Israel launched airstrikes against Gaza last week following persistent rocket fire.

Others have joined into what has effectively become a free-for-all attack on Israel. One group, which called itself the Pakistani Cyber Army, claimed responsibility for having hijacked roughly two dozen Israeli-registered sites, including one belonging to Coca-Cola.

One of its members, who identified himself only as a Pakistani Muslim, told The Associated Press that more was on the way.

"We won't stop until they stop killing innocent kids and people," he said.

Much of the online onslaught has come in the form of denial-of-service attacks, a technique that works by overloading a website with traffic.

Tel Aviv-based security company Radware said the attacks against Israel first began surging across the web on Thursday, describing some as well co-ordinated denial-of-service attacks. Although such attacks can effectively knock their targets off the web, they're usually temporary and rarely do lasting damage.

Radware said the targets included the Israel Defence Forces, the prime minister's office, Israeli banks, the Tel Aviv city government, airlines, infrastructure and business sites.

Ronen Kenig, a Radware analyst, said the flow of rogue traffic wasn't as powerful as attacks that hit the U.S. banking sector two months ago.

"In terms of the amount of traffic, it's not massive," he said, explaining that the attackers were yet to draw on networks of infected computers — known as botnets — to mount their attacks. Botnets are amassed by hackers and can grow to include thousands of compromised computers, giving them much more firepower than a few dozen online activists acting in tandem.

Government sites aren't the only ones targeted. Many other apparently randomly chosen Israeli sites have been hit, including an Israeli massage parlour, an obscure luxury car site, an accountancy practice and a university website.

Erel Margalit, chairman of Jerusalem Venture Partners, a leading Israeli venture capital firm, has invested significantly in Israel's cybersecurity system but said more must be done.

"Israel has the Iron Dome system (to intercept incoming rockets), but it needs a cyberdome," he said, noting the government just approved collaboration on the first-ever private cybersecurity incubator to further invest in the industry.

"The start-up nation is also a cybernation, it needs to be defended, and Israel is known to be quite advanced in this field," he said. Israel is often called the start-up nation because of its technology companies.

Kenig said his company had seen evidence the attackers were ramping up their efforts.

Technolytics Institute, a private U.S. consultancy, said Israel is prepared to confront incoming threats, rating Israel as fourth behind Russia, China, and the U.S. for cyberintelligence capabilities — not just defensive, but offensive, as well.

Kevin Coleman, senior fellow at Technolytics, said while Israel has invested significantly in the industry, Anonymous has become a new, threatening "virtual state" of sorts.

"When you think about conflict in general, you think about borders, but the internet doesn't have borders," he said. "So how do you retaliate against a loose coalition? How do you negotiate a cease-fire with Anonymous? We're at the tip of the iceberg in figuring out how to deal with virtual states and creating a new paradigm," he said.

"We need to do it quickly, though. This is the warfare of the future."

DaveNull
11-19-2012, 05:45 PM
cyber attack
cyber onslaught
cyber army
cyber security
cyber dome
cyber nation
cyber warfare

Note to journalists. The more you use the word "cyber" the less credibility you have.

Insipid writing like this should be dismissed out of hand. It's worse since they call a DoS attack "hacking" and then think that the random script kiddie posting "we are legion" would have access to a large enough network to kick of a distributed denial of service attack. Of course DDoS's aren't really hacking either but hey...whatever.

Slap the word "cyber" in front of whatever you'd like and someone will give you a budget item for it if you work in government.

Direckshun
11-19-2012, 09:07 PM
What makes you think that the Palestinians and Hamas would accept what you proposed?

I'm pretty sure if that option was available today, Palestinians would pretty much force Hamas to agree with it or see themselves get voted out in droves.

You'd take that deal though, right? I haven't got an answer from you, yet.

Direckshun
11-19-2012, 09:09 PM
You haven't established what the land swaps would be. But that's not important because we know that the palestinians don't want peace.

The land swaps aren't a big deal in negotiations. They've been agreed to a couple times even though a deal's never been hammered out. The big deal is the two-state solution and demilitarized Palestinian people.

I'm telling you right now, pat, as a pretend-representative of the Palestinian people: I take the deal.

Do you take the deal?

mnchiefsguy
11-19-2012, 09:09 PM
I'm pretty sure if that option was available today, Palestinians would pretty much force Hamas to agree with it or see themselves get voted out in droves.

You'd take that deal though, right? I haven't got an answer from you, yet.

Why would they? Hamas is hugely popular with the rank and file right? After all, Hamas won the election, so they have a mandate, right?