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View Full Version : U.S. Issues The "Turnaways": What happens to women denied abortions?


Direckshun
11-14-2012, 09:39 AM
Based on a two year longitudinal study (the study will continue for years).

Women who are forced to carry the pregnancy to term are:

Statistically more likely to wind up unemployed. More likely to end up on public assistance. More likely to end up below the poverty line. More likely to stay in abusive relationships. Experiencing far more stress. More likely to experience physical health complications from giving birth than they are in any kind of abortion.
However: They are not more likely to become drug users. Or feel increased anxiety or depression over time. There is also no evidence of an increase in mental health disorder. There is no evidence of increased chronic health conditions. If you have an opinion on abortion, and I think we all do, I think you basically have a responsibility to read through this. It's an easy read and very informative -- especially if you're a man who will never, ever have to make this decision yourself.

http://io9.com/5958187/what-happens-to-women-denied-abortions-this-is-the-first-scientific-study-to-find-out

What happens to women denied abortions? This is the first scientific study to find out.
Annalee Newitz

Abortion is a hotly debated and poorly studied (http://io9.com/5902201/why-dont-we-know-more-about-the-long+term-effects-of-abortion) medical procedure. There are a few (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022395608002380) studies (http://www.lifenews.com/2010/09/28/nat-6733/) of dubious validity (http://www.jhsph.edu/sebin/o/a/Charles_2008_Contraception.pdf) that connect abortion to mental illness and drug use. Politicians have used these studies to justify greater limitations on women seeking abortion in the United States.

There has been no sustained effort to study what happens to women who want abortions but can't get them due to restrictive rules. Until now. These women are called turnaways. A new longitudinal study reveals what happens to their economic position, health, and relationship status after seeking an abortion and being denied it.

Public health researchers with the UC San Francisco group Advancing New Standards in Reproductive Health (ANSIRH) (http://www.ansirh.org/index.php) used data from 956 women who sought abortions at 30 different abortion clinics around the U.S. 182 of them were turned away. The researchers, led by Diana Greene Foster, followed and did intensive interviews with these women, who ran the gamut of abortion experiences. Some obtained abortions easily, for some it was a struggle to get them, and some were denied abortions because their pregnancies had lasted a few days beyond the gestational limits of their local clinics. Two weeks ago, the research group presented what they'd learned after two years of the planned five-year, longitudinal "Turnaway Study" (http://www.ansirh.org/research/turnaway.php) at the recent American Public Health Association conference in San Francisco.

Here's the short version of what they discovered, from a post they made on the Global Turnaway Study Facebook page (http://www.facebook.com/TheGlobalTurnawayStudy):

We have found that there are no mental health consequences of abortion compared to carrying an unwanted pregnancy to term. There are other interesting findings: even later abortion is safer than childbirth and women who carried an unwanted pregnancy to term are three times more likely than women who receive an abortion to be below the poverty level two years later.

Below, you can find the longer, more complex version of the story. I spoke with Foster about the groups' preliminary findings.

Poverty

The women in the Turnaway Study were in comparable economic positions at the time they sought abortions. 45% were on public assistance and two-thirds had household incomes below the federal poverty level. One of the main reasons women cite for wanting to abort is money, and based on the outcomes for the turnaways, it seems they are right.

Most of the women who were denied an abortion, 86%, were living with their babies a year later. Only 11% had put them up for adoption. Also a year later, they were far more likely to be on public assistance — 76% of the turnaways were on the dole, as opposed to 44% of those who got abortions. 67% percent of the turnaways were below the poverty line (vs. 56% of the women who got abortions), and only 48% had a full time job (vs. 58% of the women who got abortions).

When a woman is denied the abortion she wants, she is statistically more likely to wind up unemployed, on public assistance, and below the poverty line. Another conclusion we could draw is that denying women abortions places more burden on the state because of these new mothers' increased reliance on public assistance programs.

Violence and Drug Use

In the Turnaway Study, the researchers could find no statistically significant differences in drug use between women who get abortions and women who don't. There appears to be no correlation between abortion and increased drug use. One interesting bit of data they did find was that drug users who couldn't get abortions were more likely to give their babies up for adoption.

Unfortunately, when it comes to domestic violence, being denied an abortion makes a really big difference. Turnaways were more likely to stay in a relationship with an abusive partner than women who got abortions. A year after being denied an abortion, 7% reported an incident of domestic violence in the last six months. 3% of women who received abortions reported domestic violence in the same time period. Foster emphasized that this wasn't because the turnaways were more likely to get into abusive relationships. It was simply that getting abortions allowed women to get out of such relationships more easily. So it's likely that these numbers actually reflect a dropoff in domestic violence for women who get abortions, rather than a rise among turnaways.

This pattern of violence is also part of a larger pattern that shows turnaways are more likely to remain connected to the fathers of their children. Obviously, this isn't always a good thing, as the violence statistics reveal. But even in the vast majority of cases where violence isn't involved, Foster noted that these men aren't living with the turnaways. The researchers asked women about cohabiting with partners, and found that men were no more likely to live with a turnaway who'd borne their children than they were to live with a woman who had an abortion. "The man doesn't stick around just because you have the baby — that's the crude way of putting it," Foster said.

Emotions

One of the biggest concerns about abortion is that it causes emotional problems that lead to clinical depression. The Turnaway Study looked at that question from two angles: how did turnaways and women who got abortions feel; and did they become clinically depressed. "It's important to remember that how you feel is a separate question from whether you have a mental health problem," Foster said. We'll look at women's emotions here, and discuss mental health in the next section.

As the researchers said at the American Public Health Association Meeting, "One week after seeking abortion, 97% of women who obtained an abortion felt that abortion was the right decision; 65% of turnaways still wished they had been able to obtain an abortion." Also one week after being denied an abortion, turnaways told the researchers that they had more feelings of anxiety than the women who had abortions. Women who had abortions overwhelming reported feeling relieved (90%), though many also felt sad and guilty afterwards. All of these feelings faded naturally over time in both groups, however. A year later, there were no differences in anxiety or depression between the two groups.

In other words, the Turnaway Study found no indication that there were lasting, harmful negative emotions associated with getting an abortion. The only emotional difference between the two groups at one year was that the turnaways were more stressed. They were more likely to say that they felt like they had more to do than they could get done.

None of this translated into clinical depression. "Abortion and depression don't seem directly linked," Foster said. "We'll continue to follow these women for five years, though. So we might find something else down the line."

Physical and Mental Health

The Turnaway Study found no indication that abortion could be linked with increased mental health disorders. There were no statistical differences between turnaways and women who had abortions when it came to developing clinical depression.

But turnaways did face a greater health risk from giving birth. Even late stage abortions are safer than giving birth. The researchers said at the APHA meeting:

We find physical health complications are more common and severe following birth (38% experience limited activity, average 10 days) compared to abortion (24% limited activity, average 2.7 days). There were no severe complications after abortion; after birth complications included seizure, fractured pelvis, infection and hemorrhage. We find no differences in chronic health conditions at 1 week or one year after seeking abortion.

If you look at all this data together, a new picture emerges of abortion and how the state might want to handle it. To prevent women from having to rely on public assistance, abortions should be made more widely available. In addition, there is strong evidence that making abortions available will allow women to be healthier, with brighter economic outlooks. By turning women away when they seek abortions, we risk keeping both women and their children in poverty — and, possibly, in harm's way from domestic violence.

Learn more about these studies from the abstracts of the American Public Health Association panels here (https://apha.confex.com/apha/140am/webprogram/Session36974.html) and here (https://apha.confex.com/apha/140am/webprogram/Session36913.html).

blaise
11-14-2012, 09:59 AM
If you oppose abortion I would assume it's because you're of the opinion that it's ending a human life. I'm not sure why risk of economic hardship would cause you to change that thinking.

La literatura
11-14-2012, 10:02 AM
If you oppose abortion I would assume it's because you're of the opinion that it's ending a human life. I'm not sure why risk of economic hardship would cause you to change that thinking.

Well, then. No sense of studying this stuff. Let's move on!

blaise
11-14-2012, 10:04 AM
Well, then. No sense of studying this stuff. Let's move on!

Feel free to comment on it yourself. Or was your contribution just to cry about my post?

Donger
11-14-2012, 10:06 AM
So, these "turnaways" were refused because they were late?

La literatura
11-14-2012, 10:06 AM
Feel free to comment on it yourself. Or was your contribution just to cry about my post?

I do feel free to comment on it. But first I had to comment on your post crying about the study.

A Salt Weapon
11-14-2012, 10:08 AM
Wow, this is obviously Bush's fault. We should increase taxes on the rich and create more federal government so this problem goes away.
Posted via Mobile Device

La literatura
11-14-2012, 10:08 AM
So, these "turnaways" were refused because they were late?

I think so. The fetus was viable.

Donger
11-14-2012, 10:12 AM
I think so. The fetus was viable.

Sounds like the fault of the mother.

Is the point of the article that later term abortions should be allowed in order to not have to deal with these turnaways?

blaise
11-14-2012, 10:12 AM
I do feel free to comment on it. But first I had to comment on your post crying about the study.

I wasn't crying. I realize you keep making these sarcastic posts that make John Knowles cry, but I think it's clouding your judgement. Maybe you should read your favorite quote and stop fixating on me.

La literatura
11-14-2012, 10:16 AM
Sounds like the fault of the mother.

Is the point of the article that later term abortions should be allowed in order to not have to deal with these turnaways?

That's possibly one conclusion or recommendation of the study. The turnaways end up dependent on public assistance.

La literatura
11-14-2012, 10:19 AM
I wasn't crying. I realize you keep making these sarcastic posts that make John Knowles cry, but I think it's clouding your judgement. Maybe you should read your favorite quote and stop fixating on me.

I was crying, John Knowles is crying, and blaise is the calm and collected star of the hit melodrama The Blaise Show.

blaise
11-14-2012, 10:19 AM
I was crying, John Knowles is crying, and blaise is the calm and collected star of the hit melodrama The Blaise Show.

You seem to enjoy it. You're a regular follower.

La literatura
11-14-2012, 10:21 AM
You seem to enjoy it. You're a regular follower.

I love it. Like watching a train wreck.

blaise
11-14-2012, 10:22 AM
I love it. Like watching a train wreck.

Just for the record- who began this little juvenile back and forth in this thread?

And I'm not surprised you enjoy train wrecks. Most of the women you date probably look like one.

La literatura
11-14-2012, 10:25 AM
Just for the record- who began this little juvenile back and forth in this thread?

You said something stupid and I responded to the substance of its stupidity. You then broke into your Norma Desmond role in which everything is about you, personally.

blaise
11-14-2012, 10:29 AM
You said something stupid and I responded to the substance of its stupidity. You then broke into your Norma Desmond role in which everything is about you, personally.

There was nothing stupid about my initial post. It's a legitimate statement. Would the information in the study compel someone who was opposed to abortion rights feel differently.
You just decided to be the bitter little toad you usually are and follow me around.
Which is great considering you once started your crying thread and celebrated the John Knowles quote about sarcasm being a hallmark of the small mind, or something.
If you want to be a cunt, go ahead. Be a cunt. Don't be delusional, though, and act like you're not the one that instigated it here.

patteeu
11-14-2012, 10:44 AM
Do you understand that people who seriously oppose abortion oppose it, first and foremost, for the baby's sake, not for the mother's sake? The mother can protect herself from any negative consequences by avoiding pregnancy in the first place.

patteeu
11-14-2012, 10:48 AM
There was nothing stupid about my initial post. It's a legitimate statement.

I have to agree (since I basically reposted it). Entirely legitimate.

Ace Gunner
11-14-2012, 10:54 AM
firing squad

blaise
11-14-2012, 10:58 AM
I think maybe what people could get from the study is, if you were a counselor, and some woman came to you and said, "I'm considering an abortion, but I hear that women regret it the rest of their lives," the counselor could then reference this study.
But it doesn't seem to me that if you opposed the legality of abortion because you think it's murder it would matter too much.

La literatura
11-14-2012, 11:05 AM
There was nothing stupid about my initial post. It's a legitimate statement. Would the information in the study compel someone who was opposed to abortion rights feel differently.
You just decided to be the bitter little toad you usually are and follow me around.
Which is great considering you once started your crying thread and celebrated the John Knowles quote about sarcasm being a hallmark of the small mind, or something.
If you want to be a ****, go ahead. Be a ****. Don't be delusional, though, and act like you're not the one that instigated it here.

Your initial post was a red herring. Although it's a legitimate statement by itself, when in the context of the study, you are attempting to make the study seem irrelevant, which is stupid, because there is a lot of relevant and important information either in the study or connected to it.

This thread isn't about you, although you desperately want it to be. The thread is actually about the study. If anyone wants to delegitimize the study by use of a red herring, then they are subject to criticism. You happened to be that person, so you were subject to criticism.

The criticism might be hard for you to cope with, but I can't care too much about your perpetual feeling like a victim. If every encounter with me is just going to end up being focused on a thread I started over a year ago in which you admitted you were a hypocrite, and this is going to cause you uncomfortable feelings, then I would just ignore me. Best to move on, unless you like the back and forth (I do).

blaise
11-14-2012, 11:07 AM
Your initial post was a red herring. Although it's a legitimate statement by itself, when in the context of the study, you are attempting to make the study seem irrelevant, which is stupid, because there is a lot of relevant and important information either in the study or connected to it.

This thread isn't about you, although you desperately want it to be. The thread is actually about the study. If anyone wants to delegitimize the study by use of a red herring, then they are subject to criticism. You happened to be that person, so you were subject to criticism.

The criticism might be hard for you to cope with, but I can't care too much about your perpetual feeling like a victim. If every encounter with me is just going to end up being focused on a thread I started over a year ago in which you admitted you were a hypocrite, and this is going to cause you uncomfortable feelings, then I would just ignore me.

You're just running around this thread, spazzing out. You quoted me. You keep fixating on me. You're adding nothing yourself except some whining.
But whatever, you're a miserable toad.
My, "hypocrisy" by the way, was admitting I made fun of Occupy more than I did the Tea Party. Your hypocrisy is you starting a thread to cry about sarcasm, and yet using it multiple times a day.

La literatura
11-14-2012, 11:10 AM
You're just running around this thread, spazzing out. You quoted me. You keep fixating on me. You're adding nothing yourself except some whining.
But whatever, you're a miserable toad.

Yes, I've gone from that crying stage, to the spazzing out stage, and now I'm just settling into the miserable toad stage where I sit back with my arms folded like a buddha and occasionally let out some whines.

blaise
11-14-2012, 11:11 AM
Yes, I've gone from that crying stage, to the spazzing out stage, and now I'm just settling into the miserable toad stage where I sit back with my arms folded like a buddha and occasionally let out some whines.

Actually, now you're crossing over into the boring stage.

listopencil
11-14-2012, 11:11 AM
http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/photos/uncategorized/2008/03/04/hangerchromethree.jpg

La literatura
11-14-2012, 11:13 AM
Actually, now you're crossing over into the boring stage.

Oh no! I'm sure the next time I quote you, your energy will bump right back up.

blaise
11-14-2012, 11:14 AM
Oh no! I'm sure the next time I quote you, your energy will bump right back up.

That shouldn't take long. It's a hobby of yours, apparently.

La literatura
11-14-2012, 11:16 AM
That shouldn't take long. It's a hobby of yours, apparently.

I'm very good at it. It's not much of a marketable skill, but it keeps me entertained.

blaise
11-14-2012, 11:18 AM
I'm very good at it. It's not much of a marketable skill, but it keeps me entertained.

It's ok. Someday you'll find a girl that you're not embarrassed to take out in public. Then you'll have other things to keep you entertained.

CoMoChief
11-14-2012, 11:23 AM
How about people just taking responsibility for their own actions?

Why not wait til you're ready to have kids, instead of making others foot the bill for your own mistakes?

It's not about right to choose....it's about the parents not wanting to take the responsibility for their own actions.

Abortion should really only be used for 3 things....Incest, rape, health complications w/ the mother and her pregnancy.

If you have sex, there is the chance that the woman gets pregnant. Nothing has ever changed this.

SNR
11-14-2012, 11:25 AM
http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/photos/uncategorized/2008/03/04/hangerchromethree.jpg

This.

La literatura
11-14-2012, 11:29 AM
It's ok. Someday you'll find a girl that you're not embarrassed to take out in public.

I appreciate the confidence you have in me.

Brock
11-14-2012, 11:34 AM
How about people just taking responsibility for their own actions?

Why not wait til you're ready to have kids, instead of making others foot the bill for your own mistakes?

It's not about right to choose....it's about the parents not wanting to take the responsibility for their own actions.

Abortion should really only be used for 3 things....Incest, rape, health complications w/ the mother and her pregnancy.

If you have sex, there is the chance that the woman gets pregnant. Nothing has ever changed this.

a one time charge of 300 dollars vs. a lifetime of subsidized child care, subsidized health care, free school lunches, a wasted space in a class room, and then finally free room and board at one of our finest warehouses for the dregs of humanity.

You don't know a good deal when you see one.

DementedLogic
11-14-2012, 11:55 AM
So were these women denied adoption as well? I fail to see the correlation between being denied a late term abortion and raising a child that you cannot afford. These women weren't forced to keep their baby, they were just told that they couldn't kill it.

La literatura
11-14-2012, 12:03 PM
So were these women denied adoption as well? I fail to see the correlation between being denied a late term abortion and raising a child that you cannot afford. These women weren't forced to keep their baby, they were just told that they couldn't kill it.

I think that would be key to separate those demographics (those who kept v. those who gave up).

vailpass
11-14-2012, 12:09 PM
What happens to women denied abortions?
They give birth to direckshuns and cosmos.

A definite point in favor of abortion accessibility.

Direckshun
11-14-2012, 12:17 PM
So were these women denied adoption as well? I fail to see the correlation between being denied a late term abortion and raising a child that you cannot afford. These women weren't forced to keep their baby, they were just told that they couldn't kill it.

90% of the time, they decided to keep it. They decided if they had to have it, they preferred to keep it rather than give it up for adoption.

65% of the time, they honestly just wished they could have had the abortion.

Really interesting study.

patteeu
11-14-2012, 12:18 PM
The article's author and her partner, Charlie Anders (who self-identifies as genderqueer or transwoman) started a magazine called "Other" which is apparently supposed to be like Harpers or New Yorker "for freaks".

http://www.bostonphoenix.com/boston/news_features/other_stories/documents/03315255.asp

Direckshun
11-14-2012, 12:19 PM
The article's author and her partner, Charlie Anders (who self-identifies as genderqueer or transwoman) started a magazine called "Other" which is apparently supposed to be like Harpers or New Yorker "for freaks".

http://www.bostonphoenix.com/boston/news_features/other_stories/documents/03315255.asp

Please, please tell me this is not an attempt to delegitimize the research because you find the author weird.

Please.

patteeu
11-14-2012, 12:21 PM
90% of the time, they decided to keep it. They decided if they had to have it, they preferred to keep it rather than give it up for adoption.

65% of the time, they honestly just wished they could have had the abortion.

Really interesting study.

So this study can be read to suggest that irresponsible behavior on the part of mothers leads to some bad consequences for both the mother and the child they refused to give up for adoption.

patteeu
11-14-2012, 12:22 PM
Please, please tell me this is not an attempt to delegitimize the research because you find the author weird.

Please.

Like I said in my post, it's more interesting than the study. I'm not making a comment about the legitimacy or illegitimacy of the study.

Direckshun
11-14-2012, 12:23 PM
So this study can be read to suggest that irresponsible behavior on the part of mothers leads to some bad consequences for both the mother and the child they refused to give up for adoption.

I wouldn't phrase it that way, but you're not far off from how I would.

Direckshun
11-14-2012, 12:23 PM
Like I said in my post, it's more interesting than the study.

So you're just throwing it out there. No bearing on the topic.

J Diddy
11-14-2012, 12:24 PM
Please, please tell me this is not an attempt to delegitimize the research because you find the author weird.

Please.

Before I even read your post that was my assumption as well.

vailpass
11-14-2012, 12:24 PM
The article's author and her partner, Charlie Anders (who self-identifies as genderqueer or transwoman) started a magazine called "Other" which is apparently supposed to be like Harpers or New Yorker "for freaks".

http://www.bostonphoenix.com/boston/news_features/other_stories/documents/03315255.asp

Hah! Figures tl/dnr-eckshun would bring us this.

patteeu
11-14-2012, 12:46 PM
So you're just throwing it out there. No bearing on the topic.

It's obviously related to the topic, but it doesn't have much to do with the study.

bevischief
11-14-2012, 12:51 PM
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2232676/Savita-Halappanavar-Woman-died-blood-poisoning-Irish-medics-refused-perform-abortion-Catholic-country.html

A distraught husband has described how he held his wife’s hand as she died from blood poisoning caused by a miscarriage after Irish doctors refused to perform an abortion.

fan4ever
11-14-2012, 12:54 PM
Please, please tell me this is not an attempt to delegitimize the research because you find the author weird.

Please.

Of course not. Patteau knows you never post articles from sources who have some biased or slanted viewpoint; never ever happens.

:rolleyes:

DementedLogic
11-14-2012, 01:41 PM
90% of the time, they decided to keep it. They decided if they had to have it, they preferred to keep it rather than give it up for adoption.

65% of the time, they honestly just wished they could have had the abortion.

Really interesting study.

The consequences these women face are due to their own actions, not because they can't receive late-term abortions. A better title for the research would be, "What happens to irresponsible women?" If these women had abortions, they would probably still find a way to end up in poverty and on the dole.

mr. tegu
11-14-2012, 01:50 PM
This topic has never made sense to me.

"I have no idea what your life circumstances are, how you were raised, what your financial situation is, what the long term implications are for your life and the subsequent life, how this occurrence truly happened, if you have the means to provide adequate care, etc. But I am a thousand miles away and since I live by a certain belief system you better do the same!"

I just don't get this line of thinking. :shake:

loochy
11-14-2012, 01:56 PM
This topic has never made sense to me.

"I have no idea what your life circumstances are, how you were raised, what your financial situation is, what the long term implications are for your life and the subsequent life, how this occurrence truly happened, if you have the means to provide adequate care, etc. But I am a thousand miles away and since I live by a certain belief system you better do the same!"

I just don't get this line of thinking. :shake:

My way of thinking is that it's murder. I don't support that.

vailpass
11-14-2012, 01:58 PM
This topic has never made sense to me.

"I have no idea what your life circumstances are, how you were raised, what your financial situation is, what the long term implications are for your life and the subsequent life, how this occurrence truly happened, if you have the means to provide adequate care, etc. But I am a thousand miles away and since I live by a certain belief system you better do the same!"

I just don't get this line of thinking. :shake:

I see your points and agree those factors are real, and important.

Do you see no societal benefit from keeping a framework of regulation around abortion?
Would you have unfettered access to the point abortion is commonly used as birth control?

mr. tegu
11-14-2012, 02:01 PM
My way of thinking is that it's murder. I don't support that.

Murder/killing someone can be made justifiable at times.

vailpass
11-14-2012, 02:03 PM
Murder/killing someone can be made justifiable at times.

Ugh. That one is probably not going to make it as the next taking point for the pro-abortion people any time soon.

loochy
11-14-2012, 02:03 PM
Murder/killing someone can be made justifiable at times.

Right, but the points you listed in your post don't really fit in with those justifications.

Danger of life of the mother is the only real valid situation I see here.

Der Flöprer
11-14-2012, 02:08 PM
If you oppose abortion I would assume it's because you're of the opinion that it's ending a human life. I'm not sure why risk of economic hardship would cause you to change that thinking.

No. Pretty much force them to carry, then berate them tirelessly for going on public assistance. "Keep your legs closed!" followed by "I was raped..." followed by "You asked for it..."

blaise
11-14-2012, 02:09 PM
No. Pretty much force them to carry, then berate them tirelessly for going on public assistance. "Keep your legs closed!" followed by "I was raped..." followed by "You asked for it..."

Um, ok.

mr. tegu
11-14-2012, 02:11 PM
I see your points and agree those factors are real, and important.

Do you see no societal benefit from keeping a framework of regulation around abortion?
Would you have unfettered access to the point abortion is commonly used as birth control?

I definitely see that there needs to be regulation and established standards. I don't like the idea of people continually using it as birth control but I also don't really think that is something we should concern ourselves with. To me, their reasons are there own. Perhaps some kind of law that states you can't have a certain number of them?

Der Flöprer
11-14-2012, 02:12 PM
Um, ok.

Sorry. AAAAAAAAAAAANNNNNND SCENE.

Der Flöprer
11-14-2012, 02:13 PM
Btw, that wasn't an indictment on you blaise. But let's not pretend there aren't some dumb motherfuckers out there that aren't just like that. And it goes for the other side as well.

Der Flöprer
11-14-2012, 02:13 PM
Double negative!

patteeu
11-14-2012, 02:14 PM
I'm pretty ambivalent about abortion, but I do find many of the arguments made by the pro-choice side to be pretty disgusting.

mr. tegu
11-14-2012, 02:17 PM
Right, but the points you listed in your post don't really fit in with those justifications.

Danger of life of the mother is the only real valid situation I see here.

I am just twisting your words. I know what you mean. It just seemed like your post was cut and dry meaning you saw no circumstance in which it was okay. Obviously that notion is untrue.

Ugh. That one is probably not going to make it as the next taking point for the pro-abortion people any time soon.

LMAO

vailpass
11-14-2012, 02:20 PM
I definitely see that there needs to be regulation and established standards. I don't like the idea of people continually using it as birth control but I also don't really think that is something we should concern ourselves with. To me, their reasons are there own. Perhaps some kind of law that states you can't have a certain number of them?

I'm not into telling people how to make personal decisions wither. I also believe in the need as a society to keep a framework of control around the murder of the unborn.

I'm pro choice with the hope that people would never choose abortion unless they had no alternative.

HonestChieffan
11-14-2012, 03:08 PM
Why did they get pregnant in the first place ?

HonestChieffan
11-14-2012, 03:11 PM
Please, please tell me this is not an attempt to delegitimize the research because you find the author weird.

Please.

Did Drudge cover this?

La literatura
11-14-2012, 03:15 PM
The article's author and her partner, Charlie Anders (who self-identifies as genderqueer or transwoman) started a magazine called "Other" which is apparently supposed to be like Harpers or New Yorker "for freaks".

http://www.bostonphoenix.com/boston/news_features/other_stories/documents/03315255.asp

I thought the New Yorker was already for freaks.

patteeu
11-14-2012, 03:24 PM
Before I even read your post that was my assumption as well.

http://www.edrants.com/segundo/wp-content/uploads/2007/03/charlieannalee.jpg

patteeu
11-14-2012, 03:26 PM
I thought the New Yorker was already for freaks.

They mean a different kind of freaks, not middle-class, urban whites (the group they say The New Yorker is for). Of course, they seem like middle-class, urban whites too, so they've confused me a little bit.

Radar Chief
11-14-2012, 03:31 PM
Why did they get pregnant in the first place ?

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/vpcZd4Fc0Lc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

vailpass
11-14-2012, 04:38 PM
http://www.edrants.com/segundo/wp-content/uploads/2007/03/charlieannalee.jpg

AHHHH!!! Holy Shit! You UGLY bastard!

ROFL

Iowanian
11-14-2012, 06:06 PM
If you support abortion, it's a shame your mothers weren't bigger` consumers of the practice.


boom. that just happened.

banyon
11-14-2012, 06:26 PM
There's this recent story too for people who think there should be no exception for health of the mother:

Woman's death prompts abortion debate in Ireland

CNN) -- Ireland's strict anti-abortion laws are under fire after an Indian woman living there died after being refused an abortion last month.
Savita Halappanavar, 31, went into a hospital on October 21, complaining of back pain. She was 17 weeks pregnant at the time.

The doctors who examined her told her she was having a miscarriage but denied her an abortion even though she was in extreme pain, her husband has said. Halappanavar died at the hospital, leading lawmakers to call for an investigation into what role abortion laws may have played in her death.
"They knew they couldn't help the baby. Why did they not look at the bigger life?" her husband, Praveen Halappanavar, told the Irish Times.

Halappanavar was told that the miscarriage would be over in a matter of hours, said Kitty Holland, who reported the story for the Irish Times.
But the hours kept ticking and Halappanavar remained in terrible pain, so her husband asked doctors to expedite the miscarriage by carrying out an abortion.

Doctors at Galway University Hospital said that as long as the fetal heartbeat could be felt, the law prevented them from ending the pregnancy, Holland said. Halappanavar died of septicemia, or a blood infection, after three days in the hospital.

"Tuesday morning, came back and said, 'Sorry, can't help you. It's a Catholic country. Can't help you. It's a Catholic team.' So, Savita said that she was not a Catholic. She is Hindu, so why impose the law of the land on her?" her husband said.

The death led to protests, and top Irish lawmakers are asking whether the law needs to be changed.
In Ireland, abortion is legal if the mother's life is at risk, which is different from her health being at risk, Holland said.

The hospital expressed sympathy to Halappanavar's husband, but noted in a statement that "the facts of this tragic case have yet to be established."
The hospital is conducting a review of the incident, as it does will all unexpected deaths. The Galway Roscommon University Hospitals Group released a statement saying, "In the case of a sudden maternal death, these procedures are followed: notification of the death to the coroner; notification of the death to the HSE's National Incident Management Team; the completion of a maternal death notification form. These national procedures are being followed by Galway University Hospital."

Halappanavar's death is "particularly tragic and harrowing, and shocking to all concerned," Irish opposition lawmaker Micheal Martin said before parliament.
He called for an independent inquiry into the case "with personnel from outside the country to participate on such a panel of inquiry."

The Irish government needs to "establish the full circumstances" of her death, he said.
The Irish head of state, Taoiseach Enda Kenny, said two investigations are under way.

Gerry Adams, leader of Ireland's Sinn Fein political party, said it's time for the government to legislate for abortion in certain medical cases.

The incident is garnering attention outside of Ireland, too.
In neighboring Northern Ireland, a lawmaker called for a review of abortion laws there, as well.

"An abortion to save the life of the mother is legal here, but the lack of clear guidelines has created such uncertainties and confusion amongst medical staff that such an occurrence could happen again," Anna Lo said.
In London, an abortion rights demonstration took place Wednesday evening outside the Irish Embassy

http://www.cnn.com/2012/11/14/world/europe/ireland-abortion-controversy/index.html

Brock
11-14-2012, 06:32 PM
Why did they get pregnant in the first place ?

Did your dad never explain this to you?

patteeu
11-14-2012, 06:32 PM
There's this recent story too for people who think there should be no exception for health of the mother:

I think almost everyone would be willing to allow an exception for the life of the mother. The reason people don't want exceptions for the health of the mother is the same reason anyone who wants medical marijuana in California can get it. As soon as you give that inch, someone will take a mile.

banyon
11-15-2012, 06:56 AM
I think almost everyone would be willing to allow an exception for the life of the mother. The reason people don't want exceptions for the health of the mother is the same reason anyone who wants medical marijuana in California can get it. As soon as you give that inch, someone will take a mile.

First off, in Ireland there is no exception period, and I assume your "almost everyone" means this country.

More relevantly though, it is possible to construe the "for the healh of the mother" too narrowly as well, as in the linked story. In hindsight it became about her life, but that was only after the complications went irreversibly out of control. Health can become life pretty quickly in a hospital.

I don't disagree that there may be cases on the other fringe, but isnt this the side to err on?

stevieray
11-15-2012, 07:42 AM
those poor women, having to make someone else accountable for their actions...it only costs their "oppressors" their lives.

patteeu
11-15-2012, 07:49 AM
First off, in Ireland there is no exception period, and I assume your "almost everyone" means this country.

Yes, I'm talking about this country.

More relevantly though, it is possible to construe the "for the healh of the mother" too narrowly as well, as in the linked story. In hindsight it became about her life, but that was only after the complications went irreversibly out of control. Health can become life pretty quickly in a hospital.

I don't disagree that there may be cases on the other fringe, but isnt this the side to err on?

For someone who considers an unborn child to be a fully formed life worthy of protection, the side to err on is the side that you don't kill the baby. An abortion means that the baby dies for sure. Not having an abortion means the child and mother may both survive.

The linked case is a case where the mother's life was in jeopardy whether the doctors recognized it in advance or not. In theory, an abortion would have been possible in a jurisdiction with an exception for the life of the mother. Even if that wouldn't have worked out in this case because her doctor didn't recognize that her life was in danger, that doesn't mean the rule is the problem. We rely on doctors' expertise and judgment when it comes to these things in all areas of medicine, not just abortion. Sometimes they get it wrong.

King_Chief_Fan
11-15-2012, 11:35 AM
If you oppose abortion I would assume it's because you're of the opinion that it's ending a human life. I'm not sure why risk of economic hardship would cause you to change that thinking.

you are correct

lack of abortions doen't cause economic hardship
the decisions people make cause economic hardship

a study of women who had abortions and the constant agony/guilt over that would be interesting

rubbish to think that because a person did not get an abortion they were driven to new hardships they didn't have before the pregnancy.

BucEyedPea
11-15-2012, 11:38 AM
The health of the mother? That includes her mental health it's written so broadly. By that I mean she is in despair about being pregnant.

King_Chief_Fan
11-15-2012, 11:40 AM
The health of the mother? That includes her mental health it's written so broadly. By that I mean she is in despair about being pregnant.

ok, so let's murder the child inside to rid her of her despair? Not making sense

patteeu
11-15-2012, 11:57 AM
ok, so let's murder the child inside to rid her of her despair? Not making sense

You're misunderstanding her. She's being critical of "health of the mother" exceptions.

BucEyedPea
11-15-2012, 12:07 PM
You're misunderstanding her. She's being critical of "health of the mother" exceptions.

Precisely.

VAChief
11-15-2012, 01:14 PM
those poor women, having to make someone else accountable for their actions...it only costs their "oppressors" their lives.

This is definitely a sad topic, and it certainly isn't black and white for most of us. What I don't hear a lot about in these discussions however is burden of responsibility for the men. It would seem that their lives should be comparably interrupted as well. They made the same choice.

King_Chief_Fan
11-15-2012, 01:25 PM
Precisely.

sorry BEP...sometimes you confuse me:p

Radar Chief
11-15-2012, 01:36 PM
This is definitely a sad topic, and it certainly isn't black and white for most of us. What I don't hear a lot about in these discussions however is burden of responsibility for the men. It would seem that their lives should be comparably interrupted as well. They made the same choice.

Are you under the mistaken impression that they aren’t already?

vailpass
11-15-2012, 01:41 PM
This is definitely a sad topic, and it certainly isn't black and white for most of us. What I don't hear a lot about in these discussions however is burden of responsibility for the men. It would seem that their lives should be comparably interrupted as well. They made the same choice.

The sperm donors don't factor in on a large percentage; and of those that do a large percentage are relieved.
The percentage of mutual, conscientious abortion decisions is relatively small because those couples that take the time and consult their conscience usually do not opt for abortion.

patteeu
11-15-2012, 01:48 PM
This is definitely a sad topic, and it certainly isn't black and white for most of us. What I don't hear a lot about in these discussions however is burden of responsibility for the men. It would seem that their lives should be comparably interrupted as well. They made the same choice.

It's fair to point out that the man is just as responsible for this as the woman (although I tell my girls that it's up to them to protect themselves from irresponsible men and I think all girls should view it that way).

But, the man's life is frequently interrupted for 18 years if the woman decides to keep the baby and look to him for child support. He gets no voice in whether the child lives or dies, whether the child is given up to a better home or becomes a victim of an irresponsible parent, etc. I have no more sympathy for him than I have for her, but both have their lives impacted when they get themselves into a situation like this through their joint irresponsibility.

Brock
11-15-2012, 02:07 PM
But, the man's life is frequently interrupted for 18 years if the woman decides to keep the baby and look to him for child support. He gets no voice in whether the child lives or dies, whether the child is given up to a better home or becomes a victim of an irresponsible parent, etc.

Do you think a man should be able to force a woman to have an abortion because he doesn't want to pay child support? Or force her to sign a waiver of child support when she refuses to abort it?

patteeu
11-15-2012, 02:14 PM
Do you think a man should be able to force a woman to have an abortion because he doesn't want to pay child support? Or force her to sign a waiver of child support when she refuses to abort it?

No.

Brock
11-15-2012, 02:18 PM
No.

Why not?

patteeu
11-15-2012, 02:20 PM
Why not?

Because I don't think we should be creating incentives for abortion.

Brock
11-15-2012, 02:24 PM
Because I don't think we should be creating incentives for abortion.

Why not?

HonestChieffan
11-15-2012, 02:58 PM
I wonder how many women who have had an abortion have had more than one and what the record is.

HonestChieffan
11-15-2012, 03:20 PM
Got part of the answer. 48% have had a previous abortion. 26% only had one previos abortion

http://www.prochoice.org/about_abortion/facts/women_who.html

" In fact, most women who have abortions have had no previous abortions (52%) or only one previous abortion (26%).5 Considering that most women are fertile for over 30 years, and that birth control is not perfect, the likelihood of having one or two unintended pregnancies is very high."

loochy
11-15-2012, 03:41 PM
Got part of the answer. 48% have had a previous abortion. 26% only had one previos abortion

http://www.prochoice.org/about_abortion/facts/women_who.html

" In fact, most women who have abortions have had no previous abortions (52%) or only one previous abortion (26%).5 Considering that most women are fertile for over 30 years, and that birth control is not perfect, the likelihood of having one or two unintended pregnancies is very high."

serial aborter

patteeu
11-15-2012, 03:45 PM
Why not?

For the same reason we shouldn't be subsidizing them. Because a good portion of our society considers it murder.

fan4ever
11-15-2012, 03:49 PM
Do you think a man should be able to force a woman to have an abortion because he doesn't want to pay child support? Or force her to sign a waiver of child support when she refuses to abort it?

No, I wouldn't want that because I want BOTH parties to take whatever actions necessary to avoid pregnancy if that is not what they are after...therefore if enough men are saddled with having to support a child they never wanted, maybe others will learn from their example...of course, it doesn't seem to be working.

dirk digler
11-15-2012, 04:01 PM
But, the man's life is frequently interrupted for 18 years if the woman decides to keep the baby and look to him for child support.

As it should be

dirk digler
11-15-2012, 04:13 PM
therefore if enough men are saddled with having to support a child they never wanted, maybe others will learn from their example...of course, it doesn't seem to be working.

Yeah it is not working. Too many boys\men can easily escape out of their responsibility without any consequences. Heck they may even get elected to Congress

RedNeckRaider
11-15-2012, 06:10 PM
As it should be

Yes sir~

stevieray
11-15-2012, 07:41 PM
This is definitely a sad topic, and it certainly isn't black and white for most of us. What I don't hear a lot about in these discussions however is burden of responsibility for the men. It would seem that their lives should be comparably interrupted as well. They made the same choice.

We've given both genders an out, but gave all the control to the woman...which is absurd, not only because it takes two to tango... but his sperm is the reason she got pregnant in the first place.....in fact, I think the man should have equal if not more say, especially if he's the one who will be held financially responsible...I think if the man wants to have the child, and the woman doesn't, she could carry it to term and then get kicked to the curb.

deadbeat dads? why isn't there a term for the women?

HonestChieffan
11-15-2012, 07:49 PM
The statistics are troublesome. Far to many who have abortions are already on the govt tit and the number who have multiple abortions is quite frightening.

Maybe the lefties are right. Abortions at will may be the best option?

mlyonsd
11-15-2012, 07:53 PM
The statistics are troublesome. Far to many who have abortions are already on the govt tit and the number who have multiple abortions is quite frightening.

Maybe the lefties are right. Abortions at will may be the best option?
If the government uses tax dollars for an abortion the woman should also be sterilized in the same procedure.

Brock
11-15-2012, 07:54 PM
The statistics are troublesome. Far to many who have abortions are already on the govt tit and the number who have multiple abortions is quite frightening.

Maybe the lefties are right. Abortions at will may be the best option?

Jesus Christ, of course they are. The cost of an abortion vs the cost of a lifetime on the public tit. Do the fucking math.

Brock
11-15-2012, 07:54 PM
If the government uses tax dollars for an abortion the woman should also be sterilized in the same procedure.

The dude too.

mlyonsd
11-15-2012, 07:55 PM
The dude too.It isn't his choice.

Brock
11-15-2012, 07:56 PM
We have too many people, in particular too many POOR people. You know, the people who voted for this guy you hate so much?

Brock
11-15-2012, 07:56 PM
It isn't his choice.

He fucked her, didn't he?

mlyonsd
11-15-2012, 07:57 PM
We have too many people, in particular too many POOR people. You know, the people who voted for this guy you hate so much?
You talking to me?

mlyonsd
11-15-2012, 07:57 PM
He ****ed her, didn't he?What if he wants to keep it?

Brock
11-15-2012, 07:59 PM
What if he wants to keep it?

yeah, sure, that's the problem. Too many dads stepping up to take care of their children, particularly among the breeding poor.

ROFL

Brock
11-15-2012, 08:00 PM
You talking to me?

http://mikecane.files.wordpress.com/2007/04/travis-bickle.jpg?w=450

mlyonsd
11-15-2012, 08:03 PM
yeah, sure, that's the problem. Too many dads stepping up to take care of their children, particularly among the breeding poor.

ROFL
I gave you a what if. Not an end all answer.

The whole left mantra is it's the woman's decision. If my dollars are going to pay for a particular decision I think I should have a say in the consequences of that decision.

Of course if she wants to pay for it on her own it is completely her decision.

mlyonsd
11-15-2012, 08:05 PM
http://mikecane.files.wordpress.com/2007/04/travis-bickle.jpg?w=450

You think I hate poor people?

Brock
11-15-2012, 08:07 PM
You think I hate poor people?

Haven't the faintest.

HonestChieffan
11-15-2012, 08:18 PM
Jesus Christ, of course they are. The cost of an abortion vs the cost of a lifetime on the public tit. Do the ****ing math.

Im there. My personal belief is that killing babies is wrong. But it seems there are a lot of these breeders who could give a damn and if push comes to shove Im coming around that abortions may just be an Ok thing. Heartless yes but practicallity is setting in

petegz28
11-15-2012, 08:19 PM
Jesus Christ, of course they are. The cost of an abortion vs the cost of a lifetime on the public tit. Do the ****ing math.

What's wrong with adoption? You knowm the other A word?

J Diddy
11-15-2012, 08:23 PM
We've given both genders an out, but gave all the control to the woman...which is absurd, not only because it takes two to tango... but his sperm is the reason she got pregnant in the first place.....in fact, I think the man should have equal if not more say, especially if he's the one who will be held financially responsible...I think if the man wants to have the child, and the woman doesn't, she could carry it to term and then get kicked to the curb.

deadbeat dads? why isn't there a term for the women?

There is. Literally it's my ex-wife.

Mrs. Loopner
11-15-2012, 08:35 PM
I see more than a couple of problems with this study.

- You can’t get more liberal than San Francisco. They’ll sue the pants off a wino because he didn’t share with his re-hab wino mama AND then they’ll take it all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court if they don’t win.

-There isn’t a BBQ joint in San Francisco, (I’m pretty sure – I never saw one anyway) How can anyone conduct a study who doesn’t welcome an exhilarating regular experience of BBQ? No wonder their thinking is messed up!

Currently in the U.S. there are 650 abortion clinics operating – this study referenced 30 clinics as to where they gathered their information and 1000 women? They should have been able to get 20% of the clinics and 100,000’s of women who were turned down to interview especially if they gave them $50 gift cards for interviewing. A very poor sampling, in my opinion.

And, 2800 interviews which is 2.8 interviews per person?
If they are contacting the women every 6 months and the study was from 2008 to 2010 then that changes the 2.8 per person to: the 2008 (let’s say January) to at minimum to 2 in year one, 2 in year two and 2 in year three so that should be 6 interviews with one person in just three years and it states they will contact them for a period of 5 years. So, they haven’t even finished gathering data from the 2008 group. Yet, they are coming out with results? Trends maybe but not results.

-It doesn’t state who is funding the study. Yes, UCFS is completing the study but who gave them the funds? They’re not doing it out of the goodness of their hearts. That has definite bearing upon results. .

-It doesn’t reference why they were “turned away”. Was it because the clinic was about to close; they had too many waiting already; they hadn’t done proper preparation (it is a surgical procedure I would think they would have to abstain from food, water, etc before the procedure) they didn’t have someone to take them home afterwards and to infinity and beyond with reasons but specifics are not mentioned. Did they not get their husbands/partners permission? Does that even come into play here.

And not once does it mention prevention/birth control on either the man or women's part.

The "study" is bogus.

dirk digler
11-15-2012, 08:38 PM
I gave you a what if. Not an end all answer.

The whole left mantra is it's the woman's decision. If my dollars are going to pay for a particular decision I think I should have a say in the consequences of that decision.

Of course if she wants to pay for it on her own it is completely her decision.

Just my guess here but I would think in the vast majority of the cases the men are asked and probably decline to keep.

stevieray
11-15-2012, 08:40 PM
There is. Literally it's my ex-wife.

sorry, man. that sucks.

dirk digler
11-15-2012, 08:41 PM
This guy is awesome

Documents obtained by the Chattanooga Times Free Press (http://www.scribd.com/doc/113393554/Divorce-Transcript-of-Rep-Scott-DesJarlais) finds that Tennessee physician and Rep. Scott DesJarlais (R-TN) supported his ex-wife's decision to get two abortions before their marriage.

The Tennessee lawmaker has described himself as "a consistent supporter of pro-life values."

The couple's 2001 trial transcript (http://www.timesfreepress.com/documents/2012/nov/15/desjarlais-testimony/) "also confirms DesJarlais had sexual relationships with at least two patients, three coworkers and a drug representative... During one affair with a female patient, DesJarlais prescribed her drugs, gave her an $875 watch and bought her a plane ticket to Las Vegas, records show."

mlyonsd
11-15-2012, 08:43 PM
Just my guess here but I would think in the vast majority of the cases the men are asked and probably decline to keep.

I don't dispute that.

HonestChieffan
11-15-2012, 08:44 PM
Just my guess here but I would think in the vast majority of the cases the men are asked and probably decline to keep.

You assume the woman has a clue who the daddyrabbit is

petegz28
11-15-2012, 08:45 PM
This guy is awesome

Affair crap aside, I am not sure how this is different than a pro-choice, dem catholic?

dirk digler
11-15-2012, 08:54 PM
I don't dispute that.

I am all for fathers rights but I don't think most young men want the responsibility I know I didn't. But I had my child at 23-24 and I certainly wasn't prepared to be a dad.

I know my first response after she told me was are you going to keep it? Of course I was freaking the fuck out.

You assume the woman has a clue who the daddyrabbit is

I have no doubt they know in almost all cases which probably figures in their decision.

dirk digler
11-15-2012, 08:57 PM
Affair crap aside, I am not sure how this is different than a pro-choice, dem catholic?

Sounds like he wanted to fuck whatever and have no responsibility.

petegz28
11-15-2012, 08:58 PM
Sounds like he wanted to **** whatever and have no responsibility.

You just described the majority of democrats. Just sayin'

dirk digler
11-15-2012, 09:01 PM
You just described the majority of democrats. Just sayin'

I probably described every guy in America :p

petegz28
11-15-2012, 09:02 PM
I probably described every guy in America :p

And a lot of women. Let's not kid ourselves.

dirk digler
11-15-2012, 09:07 PM
And a lot of women. Let's not kid ourselves.

Where? :D

petegz28
11-15-2012, 09:19 PM
Where? :D

All the one's who voted for Obama apparently. Free birth control and gov funded abortions seem to be important to them.

Shit, you can poke them, not pay for the condom or if should come to it, the abortion.

Now that's a deal!

OmahaChief
11-16-2012, 09:49 AM
The women in the Turnaway Study were in comparable economic positions at the time they sought abortions. 45% were on public assistance and two-thirds had household incomes below the federal poverty level. One of the main reasons women cite for wanting to abort is money, and based on the outcomes for the turnaways, it seems they are right.

Most of the women who were denied an abortion, 86%, were living with their babies a year later. Only 11% had put them up for adoption. Also a year later, they were far more likely to be on public assistance — 76% of the turnaways were on the dole, as opposed to 44% of those who got abortions. 67% percent of the turnaways were below the poverty line (vs. 56% of the women who got abortions), and only 48% had a full time job (vs. 58% of the women who got abortions).

When a woman is denied the abortion she wants, she is statistically more likely to wind up unemployed, on public assistance, and below the poverty line. Another conclusion we could draw is that denying women abortions places more burden on the state because of these new mothers' increased reliance on public assistance programs.



Good to know that 45% of the women were already on government assistance and did not have the common sense to use birth control of some sort. Sure there were a few accidents in there but I we can probably gather most of these people were not being responsible in the first place. It would save everyone money of these women would keep their legs shut use some contraception.

ROYC75
11-16-2012, 09:53 AM
The "Turnaways": What happens to women denied abortions?


They get sent to Israel for Palestinians to launch missiles & rockets towards them.