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View Full Version : Int'l Issues Morsi and the Muslim Brotherhood goes down dictatorship path.


BigRedChief
11-24-2012, 11:33 AM
Grant themselves sweeping powers and give the Islamist s the power to write the constitution. Riots break out in multiple cities.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/11/24/opponents-egypt-islamic-president-clash-with-backers-over-new-powers/#ixzz2DA59xzWv

CAIRO Egypt's highest body of judges slammed on Saturday a recent decision by the president to grant himself near-absolute power, calling the move an "unprecedented assault" on the judiciary.

In a statement carried on Egypt's official MENA news agency, the Supreme Judicial Council condemned this week's declaration by President Mohammed Morsi placing his decrees above judicial review until a new constitution and parliament is in place, several months if not more in the future.
Their condemnation of the president's edicts are the latest blow to Morsi, whose decision Thursday set off a firestorm of controversy and prompted tens of thousands of people to take to the streets in nationwide protests Friday.
Through their statement, the judges join a widening list of leaders and activists from Egypt's political factions, including some Islamists, who have denounced the decree.

The Supreme Judicial Council is packed with judges appointed by former President Hosni Mubarak. It regulates judicial promotions and is chaired by the head of the Court of Cassation.

Their move reflects a broad sense of anger within the judiciary. Some judges' groups and prosecutors have already announced partial strikes to protest Morsi's decree.

Morsi has accused pro-Mubarak elements in the judiciary of blocking political progress. In the last year, courts have dissolved the lower house of parliament as well as the first panel drafting the constitution, both led by his Muslim Brotherhood group.

The edicts Morsi issued mean that no judicial body can dissolve the upper house of parliament or the current assembly writing the new constitution, which are also both led by the Brotherhood. Supporters of Morsi feared that court might in fact dissolve one of these bodies, further postponing Egypt's transition under the aegis of a new constitution.

They say Morsi has a mandate to guide this process as Egypt's first freely elected president, having defeated one of Mubarak's former prime ministers this summer in a closely contested election.

The judges' council's stand against the president sets the ground for an uneasy alliance between former regime officials and activist groups that helped topple Mubarak's regime and have in the past derided those officials as "felool," or remnants.

The presidents' opponents nonetheless see the judiciary as the only remaining civilian branch of government with a degree of independence, since Morsi already holds executive power and as well as legislative authority due to the dissolution of parliament.

The judges released their statement following an emergency meeting Saturday. They said Morsi's decision is an "unprecedented assault on the judiciary and it rulings" and called on the president to "distance himself from the declaration and all things that touch judicial authority, its specifications or interference in its members or its rulings."

Ebolapox
11-24-2012, 11:45 AM
I'm surprised, really I am.

patteeu
11-24-2012, 12:38 PM
2016: Obama's Egypt

BigRedChief
11-24-2012, 01:09 PM
2016: Obama's EgyptWTF are we supposed to have done? Side with Murback? Let him kill his people like Assad is doing in Syria?

Surely we learned our lesson from the cold war. Supporting dictators that kills its own people to stay in power are always eventually overthrown.

patteeu
11-24-2012, 01:14 PM
WTF are we supposed to have done? Side with Murback? Let him kill his people like Assad is doing in Syria?

Surely we learned our lesson from the cold war. Supporting dictators that kills its own people to stay in power are always eventually overthrown.

Mubarack wouldn't have had to go to the lengths of Assad, but even after we abandoned him, we still could have sided with the military over the MB. Whatever we did, we should have done something different because it's hard to imagine it being much worse (although Obama does have another 4 years to work at it, so I won't rule it out).

BigRedChief
11-24-2012, 01:24 PM
Mubarack wouldn't have had to go to the lengths of Assad, but even after we abandoned him, we still could have sided with the military over the MB.Siding with the military? Really? yeah that would have turned out so well. :facepalm:

We don't get to dictate how people chose to conduct their affairs. Everyone says the Muslim brotherhood won the election fair and square. We can't use our military and political power to alter the election outcome in the Muslim worlds most populated country. It would have backfired on us big time. Set us back years.

I'm confident that eventually Egypt will be some type of Democracy, if we don't fuck it up by trying to control the will of its people.

go bowe
11-24-2012, 01:30 PM
Mubarack wouldn't have had to go to the lengths of Assad, but even after we abandoned him, we still could have sided with the military over the MB. Whatever we did, we should have done something different because it's hard to imagine it being much worse (although Obama does have another 4 years to work at it, so I won't rule it out).

salafists win the parliment and the presidency, they bring in some taliban to teach the new religious police and some ayatollah takes over as supreme leader...

you need to work on your imagination... :p

cosmo20002
11-24-2012, 01:55 PM
Mubarack wouldn't have had to go to the lengths of Assad, but even after we abandoned him, we still could have sided with the military over the MB. Whatever we did, we should have done something different because it's hard to imagine it being much worse (although Obama does have another 4 years to work at it, so I won't rule it out).

Define "sided with"? Military force? A statement in support? I assume you mean verbal support and you know it wouldn't have made a difference anyway. You've said before that Obama "let" this happen, I just don't know what you think he could have or should have done about it.

HonestChieffan
11-24-2012, 02:07 PM
Still leading from behind.

BigRedChief
11-24-2012, 02:08 PM
Still leading from behind.

So, what should we have done differently?

patteeu
11-24-2012, 02:21 PM
Siding with the military? Really? yeah that would have turned out so well. :facepalm:

We don't get to dictate how people chose to conduct their affairs. Everyone says the Muslim brotherhood won the election fair and square. We can't use our military and political power to alter the election outcome in the Muslim worlds most populated country. It would have backfired on us big time. Set us back years.

I'm confident that eventually Egypt will be some type of Democracy, if we don't **** it up by trying to control the will of its people.

Maybe you want to believe that the most powerful man in the world had no ability to influence world events, but I don't agree. This is a huge policy failure amidst a whole cornucopia of foreign policy failures.

patteeu
11-24-2012, 02:22 PM
Define "sided with"? Military force? A statement in support? I assume you mean verbal support and you know it wouldn't have made a difference anyway. You've said before that Obama "let" this happen, I just don't know what you think he could have or should have done about it.

Aid, assurances, covert support, public statements, all of the above.

blaise
11-24-2012, 03:42 PM
This is a feather in Obama's cap.

BigRedChief
11-24-2012, 04:47 PM
Aid, assurances, covert support, public statements, all of the above.That is just general statements. What statements, assurances would you like to have seen made? and to whom?

Aid to who? and what aid?

patteeu
11-24-2012, 05:11 PM
That is just general statements. What statements, assurances would you like to have seen made? and to whom?

Aid to who? and what aid?

If you wanted me to design the details of our foreign policy, you should have been planting patteeu signs in your yard instead of Obama signs this fall.

We have lots of tools at our disposal when it comes to influencing the geopolitical world around us. If Obama and his team had used them effectively, we wouldn't find a MB dictatorship in place in Egypt right now. His incoherent policy has been a disaster across the Middle East and there's no reason for any optimism that things will get better in his second term. I didn't build that.

HonestChieffan
11-24-2012, 06:56 PM
http://news.yahoo.com/egypt-brotherhood-leader-blasts-peace-israel-125928181.html

Obamas people. Love it.


CAIRO (AP) — The top leader of Egypt’s Muslim Brotherhood denounced peace efforts with Israel and urged holy war to liberate Palestinian territories on Thursday — one day after the country’s president, who hails from the movement, mediated a cease-fire between Israelis and Palestinians to end eight days of fierce fighting.

“The enemy knows nothing but the language of force,” said Mohammed Badie. “Be aware of the game of grand deception with which they depict peace accords,” he said in a statement carried on the group’s website and emailed to reporters.

His statement was a sharp deviation from the role played by President Mohammed Morsi in the last week. Egypt’s role in brokering the deal has been hailed by U.S. officials.

The Brotherhood sometimes delivers conflicting messages, depending on its audience. There are also ideological and generational divisions within the movement, with older leaders like Badie often seen as more conservative.

The Muslim Brotherhood doesn’t recognize Israel and — at least officially — its members refuse to hold direct talks with Israeli officials. But Morsi has said that he will abide by the terms of Egypt’s 1979 treaty with Israel, and many members say they are in little hurry to enter into armed conflict with the Jewish state.

petegz28
11-24-2012, 09:44 PM
wow......shocking......no one saw this coming......:rolleyes:

BigRedChief
11-24-2012, 11:09 PM
If you wanted me to design the details of our foreign policy, you should have been planting patteeu signs in your yard instead of Obama signs this fall.

We have lots of tools at our disposal when it comes to influencing the geopolitical world around us. If Obama and his team had used them effectively, we wouldn't find a MB dictatorship in place in Egypt right now. His incoherent policy has been a disaster across the Middle East and there's no reason for any optimism that things will get better in his second term. I didn't build that.
You have a BILLION people of a different religion than the the majority of the American people. The majority don't even have a basic understand democracy. They are uneducated and their religious leaders are telling them we are the devil. Yeah, they should all be drinking the Obama kool aid by now.

You don't say anything that McCain or Romney or any Republican would have done differently. Did you watch the Foreign Policy debate? Republicans and Dem's have little space between them.

So, its all Obama's fault, no matter what?

mikey23545
11-25-2012, 12:27 AM
Grant themselves sweeping powers and give the Islamist s the power to write the constitution. Riots break out in multiple cities.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/11/24/opponents-egypt-islamic-president-clash-with-backers-over-new-powers/#ixzz2DA59xzWv

CAIRO Egypt's America's highest body of judges slammed on Saturday a recent decision by the president to grant himself near-absolute power, calling the move an "unprecedented assault" on the judiciary.

In a statement carried on Egypt's official MENA America's MSNBC news agency, the Supreme Judicial Council Court condemned this week's declaration by President Mohammed Morsi Obama placing his decrees above judicial review until a new constitution and parliament is in place, several months if not more in the future.
Their condemnation of the president's edicts are the latest blow to Morsi Obama, whose decision Thursday set off a firestorm of controversy and prompted tens of thousands of people to take to the streets in nationwide protests Friday.
Through their statement, the judges join a widening list of leaders and activists from Egypt's America's political factions, including some Islamists atheists and Christians, who have denounced the decree.

The Supreme Judicial Council Court is packed with judges appointed by former Presidents . It regulates judicial promotions and is chaired by the head of the Court of Cassation Chief Justice.

Their move reflects a broad sense of anger within the judiciary. Some judges' groups and prosecutors have already announced partial strikes to protest Morsi's Obama's decree.

Morsi Obama has accused pro-Mubarak democracy elements in the judiciary of blocking political progress. In the last year, courts have dissolved the lower house of parliament House of Representatives as well as the first panel drafting the constitution, both led by his Muslim Brotherhood group.

The edicts Morsi Obama issued mean that no judicial body can dissolve the upper house of parliament or the current assembly writing the new constitution, which are also both led by the Brotherhood. Supporters of Morsi Obama feared that court might in fact dissolve one of these bodies, further postponing Egypt's America's transition under the aegis of a new constitution.

They say Morsi Obama has a mandate to guide this process as Egypt's first America's last freely elected president, having defeated one of Mubarak's former prime ministers democracy's last champions this summer fall in a closely contested election.

The judges' council's stand against the president sets the ground for an uneasy alliance between former regime officials and activist groups that helped topple Mubarak's regime democracy and have in the past derided those officials as "teabaggers," or remnants.

The presidents' opponents nonetheless see the judiciary as the only remaining civilian branch of government with a degree of independence, since Morsis Obama already holds executive power and as well as legislative authority due to the dissolution of parliament.

The judges released their statement following an emergency meeting Saturday. They said Morsi's Obama's decision is an "unprecedented assault on the judiciary and it rulings" and called on the president to "distance himself from the declaration and all things that touch judicial authority, its specifications or interference in its members or its rulings."



Not surprising.

patteeu
11-25-2012, 03:11 AM
You have a BILLION people of a different religion than the the majority of the American people. The majority don't even have a basic understand democracy. They are uneducated and their religious leaders are telling them we are the devil. Yeah, they should all be drinking the Obama kool aid by now.

You don't say anything that McCain or Romney or any Republican would have done differently. Did you watch the Foreign Policy debate? Republicans and Dem's have little space between them.

So, its all Obama's fault, no matter what?

Obama is the guy in charge. If it was Romney or McCain for the past 4 years, it would be their failure, but it's not. If Romney or McCain had been POTUS, I doubt this would have happened. It certainly didn't happen on GWBush's watch.

Comrade Crapski
11-25-2012, 05:44 AM
bLacK foR paLesTine NAH!!!

:drool:

BigRedChief
11-25-2012, 06:49 AM
Obama is the guy in charge. If it was Romney or McCain for the past 4 years, it would be their failure, but it's not. If Romney or McCain had been POTUS, I doubt this would have happened. It certainly didn't happen on GWBush's watch.:hmmm: It happened on Obama's watch so its his fault...... :hmmm:..... I thought the collapse of the housing and financial market on Bush's watch wasn't his fault?

So if it happens on a Dems watch, its their fault. I happens on an R's watch, its the Dems fault?

mlyonsd
11-25-2012, 06:50 AM
:hmmm: It happened on Obama's watch so its his fault...... :hmmm:..... I thought the collapse of the housing and financial market on Bush's watch wasn't his fault?

So if it happens on a Dems watch, its their fault. I happens on an R's watch, its the Dems fault?
If it would have happened under Bush or Romney you can bet your bottom dollar the media would be clambering it was their fault.

BigRedChief
11-25-2012, 07:00 AM
If it would have happened under Bush or Romney you can bet your bottom dollar the media would be clambering it was their fault.I understand that thought process. Blame the guy in charge. But, anyone could see this coming years ago. And no one could have stopped it without making the situation worse.

There is nothing we could have done to stop this train. We can only hope to maybe not have those BILLION people all on that same train.

HonestChieffan
11-25-2012, 07:38 AM
Im sure Obama will cut off the foreign aid if the MB gets really going, don't you? Fanatical Islam and sharia law, human rights folks will get Obama to take away US support. What do you think?

patteeu
11-25-2012, 08:29 AM
:hmmm: It happened on Obama's watch so its his fault...... :hmmm:..... I thought the collapse of the housing and financial market on Bush's watch wasn't his fault?

So if it happens on a Dems watch, its their fault. I happens on an R's watch, its the Dems fault?

Sometimes there are actually differences between one thing and another.

The conditions for the financial collapse of 2008 were created by the interaction of a decade's worth of legislative and regulatory policy created by both Congress and the WH and advocated by both Republicans and democrats. Very few people saw the collapse coming. So it's wrong to blame GWBush almost exclusively for it, but that hasn't stopped you or the rest of your party from doing it. (Your attempt to point the finger of hypocrisy at me ignores the fact that it indicts you at the same time).

By contrast, the Arab Spring and it's aftermath took place entirely on Obama's watch in a policy area (foreign policy) where the President has a great deal of autonomy. The results that we're now seeing were so predictable that many people on ChiefsPlanet predicted it. It's almost completely different than the complex and bipartisan policy failures of the financial collapse. While it's true that GWBush set things in motion which made the Arab Spring more likely (by showing the way to freedom in Iraq), it's the mismanagement of the Arab Spring (and of Iraq for that matter) that falls entirely in Obama's lap.

patteeu
11-25-2012, 08:32 AM
But, anyone could see this coming years ago.

True, which is what makes it different than the financial collapse.

And no one could have stopped it without making the situation worse.

This is almost certainly false. You seem to give the US foreign policy team very little credit. Maybe you should sign on to Ron Paul's isolationism.

BigRedChief
11-25-2012, 09:27 AM
Sometimes there are actually differences between one thing and another.I guess so......One guy was Republican, one was a Democrat.
The conditions for the financial collapse of 2008 were created by the interaction of a decade's worth of legislative and regulatory policy created by both Congress and the WH and advocated by both Republicans and democrats. Very few people saw the collapse coming. So it's wrong to blame GWBush almost exclusively for it, but that hasn't stopped you or the rest of your party from doing it. (Your attempt to point the finger of hypocrisy at me ignores the fact that it indicts you at the same time)It happened on his watch
/patteau

By contrast, the Arab Spring and it's aftermath took place entirely on Obama's watch in a policy area (foreign policy) where the President has a great deal of autonomy. The results that we're now seeing were so predictable that many people on ChiefsPlanet predicted it.Everybody saw this coming. Everyone knew the Muslim brotherhood would win the election. They won a fair democratic election. We were suppose to somehow overthrow or sabotage a free and fair election because we don't like the party in the lead? Thats not what we are suppose to be about.

Direckshun
11-25-2012, 10:45 AM
Basically, we've got the tri-fecta, here.

The decree brings with it massive civil unrest, international scorn, and now Egyptian shares are falling in value (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/nov/25/egyptian-shares-tumble-morsi-decree).

So now Morsi is saying the powers are temporary:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/25/mohamed-morsi-decree_n_2188065.html

Mohamed Morsi's Decree 'Temporary,' Presidency Says
11/25/2012 10:53 am EST

The Egyptian presidency said on Sunday it was committed to engaging "all political forces" to reach common ground on the constitution and stressed the "temporary nature" of a decree expanding President Mohamed Mursi's powers.

"This declaration is deemed necessary in order to hold accountable those responsible for the corruption as well as other crimes during the previous regime and the transitional period," the presidency said in a statement.

alanm
11-25-2012, 11:27 AM
If it would have happened under Bush or Romney you can bet your bottom dollar the media would be clambering it was their fault.But strangely enough the media is pretty quiet in assessing the blame game here. :shrug:

alanm
11-25-2012, 11:29 AM
Im sure Obama will cut off the foreign aid if the MB gets really going, don't you? Fanatical Islam and sharia law, human rights folks will get Obama to take away US support. What do you think?I've seen this game before. He'll throw more money at them hoping to appease them.

HonestChieffan
11-25-2012, 11:59 AM
I've seen this game before. He'll throw more money at them hoping to appease them.

So we will reward behavior that is counter to our intetests? This is confusing. Unless what is happening is what the administration supports. In that case Obama should get credit for this success and we would then be rewarding our good friends for their progress.

Perhaps we are looking at this wrong?

patteeu
11-25-2012, 02:54 PM
Compare and contrast:

Egyptian people rise up against a dictator who served US interests well for several decades --> Obama administration tells him to GTFO

vs

Egyptian people rise up against a dictator whose sympathies lie with anti-western Islamists --> Obama administration tells protestors to stay calm and resolve their differences peacefully through dialogue.

BigRedChief
11-25-2012, 03:29 PM
Compare and contrast:

Egyptian people rise up against a dictator who served US interests well for several decades --> Obama administration tells him to GTFO

vs

Egyptian people rise up against a dictator whose sympathies lie with anti-western Islamists --> Obama administration tells protestors to stay calm and resolve their differences peacefully through dialogue.yeah, lets help keep the dictator in power. Help him kill people wanting democratic elections?:doh!:

patteeu
11-25-2012, 03:38 PM
yeah, lets help keep the dictator in power. Help him kill people wanting democratic elections?:doh!:

You're starting to sound like Kotter.

1. I've never suggested that we should have helped kill anyone just for wanting democratic elections.

2. We're helping to keep a dictator in power right now. We're asking pro-democracy demonstrators to calm down instead of telling the dictator to step down. How can your blinders be so effective that you've missed that?

Pawnmower
11-25-2012, 03:48 PM
Im sure Obama will cut off the foreign aid if the MB gets really going, don't you?

Gets really going? You mean like winning the presidency AND control of their congress?


They are going...strong.


The question is will the Egyptian people tolerate a theocracy , and the MB pushing them around when the MB sat on the sidelines during the revolution. (Or for how long will they tolerate this?)

As to your question, I think the money will flow as long as Egypt keeps their peace deal with Israel.

Direckshun
11-26-2012, 09:13 AM
It appears now that these powers will not hold.

The legal system is resisting it (http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/newsdesk/2012/11/tahrir-square-on-the-edge.html), but mainly the military that still runs the country is deeply distrustful (http://www.thenational.ae/thenationalconversation/comment/to-break-the-deadlock-morsi-wields-a-clumsy-hammer) of him.

Radar Chief
11-26-2012, 09:21 AM
yeah, lets help keep the dictator in power. Help him kill people wanting democratic elections?:doh!:

The point.
Your head.

Amnorix
11-26-2012, 10:04 AM
Compare and contrast:

Egyptian people rise up against a dictator who served US interests well for several decades --> Obama administration tells him to GTFO

vs

Egyptian people rise up against a dictator whose sympathies lie with anti-western Islamists --> Obama administration tells protestors to stay calm and resolve their differences peacefully through dialogue.


:rolleyes: Do you believe Obama is a Kenyan-born Muslim as well?

patteeu
11-26-2012, 12:34 PM
:rolleyes: Do you believe Obama is a Kenyan-born Muslim as well?

No. He's probably a atheistic, leftist who was born in Hawaii and who sympathizes with the people of the world that he thinks have been oppressed by western colonialism and neo-colonialism (including the oppression of palestinians by the Israelis, most relevantly). How about you?

And do you have a relevant response to the post you quoted.

ROYC75
11-26-2012, 01:24 PM
So, what should we have done differently?

Sent Obama & Biden on a secret mission to rule Egypt.;)

Iowanian
11-26-2012, 01:24 PM
That is just general statements. What statements, assurances would you like to have seen made? and to whom?

Aid to who? and what aid?

If you and the rest of the Obama fans are going to credit him with solving global warming every time he farts, you're going to have to accept it when he steps on his pickle too.


Obama was going to fix Egypt...but then he got high.

go bowe
11-26-2012, 01:43 PM
just curious, how would YOU have "fixed egypt"?

Direckshun
11-26-2012, 01:49 PM
There really wasn't much a responsible US foreign policy could do in Egypt, or really any of these countries during their popular uprisings, other than talk to the dictators behind closed doors about exercising restraint or stepping down, and of course making sure Americans are protected. Obama did all of these in Egypt.

It seems to me that the other option in Egypt was to either go Full Iran, where we just keep our distance, or go Full Bahrain, which is where we arm those in power to further brutalize their people until they give up (I wrote about that here (http://chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?p=8619334)).

I think we handled Egypt as well as can be expected. I haven't heard much in the way of effective rebuttals to that, just blanket criticism from the usual suspects and some of the usual nonspecific pablum.

patteeu
11-26-2012, 01:54 PM
There really wasn't much a responsible US foreign policy could do in Egypt, or really any of these countries during their popular uprisings, other than talk to the dictators behind closed doors about exercising restraint or stepping down, and of course making sure Americans are protected. Obama did all of these in Egypt.

It seems to me that the other option in Egypt was to either go Full Iran, where we just keep our distance, or go Full Bahrain, which is where we arm those in power to further brutalize their people until they give up (I wrote about that here (http://chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?p=8619334)).

I think we handled Egypt as well as can be expected. I haven't heard much in the way of effective rebuttals to that, just blanket criticism from the usual suspects and some of the usual nonspecific pablum.

You left out an infinite number of other options. All we know for sure is that the option selected by Obama led to what is currently a MB dictatorship. Maybe he'll be able to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat, but I'm not even sure he sees victory the same way pro-Americans do.

Oh, and btw, wrt "nonspecific pablum": scoreboard.

Direckshun
11-26-2012, 02:17 PM
I think we handled Egypt as well as can be expected. I haven't heard much in the way of effective rebuttals to that, just blanket criticism from the usual suspects and some of the usual nonspecific pablum.

All we know for sure is that the option selected by Obama led to what is currently a MB dictatorship. Maybe he'll be able to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat, but I'm not even sure he sees victory the same way pro-Americans do.

Your witness.

patteeu
11-26-2012, 02:24 PM
Your witness.

Your bar is pretty low if failure is "as well as can be expected".

Calcountry
11-26-2012, 02:26 PM
So, what should we have done differently?We should have promised the people of Egypt 100 bucks a month in EBT cards and free Obama phones if they vote for the candidate that would have been our puppet.

go bowe
11-26-2012, 02:37 PM
You left out an infinite number of other options. All we know for sure is that the option selected by Obama led to what is currently a MB dictatorship. Maybe he'll be able to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat, but I'm not even sure he sees victory the same way pro-Americans do.

Oh, and btw, wrt "nonspecific pablum": scoreboard.

ok, mr. romney, name a few specific options that would have worked...

specific options...

HonestChieffan
11-26-2012, 02:42 PM
http://english.alarabiya.net/articles/2012/11/26/251886.html

This sounds like an opening gambit to negotiate.....assassinations.

A senior member of Egypt’s former militant Islamist group al-Gamaa al-Islamiya has warned that liberal politicians and intellectuals who oppose President Mohammed Mursi’s latest constitutional declaration could face a campaign of targeted assassinations starting from December.

Nageh Ibrahim, the ideologue of the Gamaa al-Islamiya, which took up arms against ousted president Hosni Mubarak’s regime in the 1980s, told Al Arabiya that his expectation “was based on an analysis of the political situation not on information.”

He said recent escalation of violence in different parts of the country, including successive attacks on security forces in Sinai, attacks on Muslim Brotherhood offices and on mosques, point to a possible bloody reaction against liberals.

Ibrahim first made his statement in an interview with the London-based Asharq al-Awsat, saying targeted assassinations against prominent liberals would be a “natural reaction” to violence and mistrust, and political polarization in Egypt.

And while he supported President Mursi’s latest decrees to consolidate his powers by making his decisions irrevocable by the judiciary, Ibrahim called for the president to include more civil and liberal figures in his government and take their demands into consideration when making decisions.

“Had the president included representatives of the civil powers in the new government, he would not have had so many enemies,” Ibrahim said.

“This has to be done before Egypt becomes divided, not only politically but possibly geographically as well.”

jiveturkey
11-26-2012, 02:50 PM
I got say, I'm thoroughly shocked that these people weren't able to achieve a perfect democracy in matter of two years.

HonestChieffan
11-26-2012, 02:56 PM
I got say, I'm thoroughly shocked that these people weren't able to achieve a perfect democracy in matter of two years.


Id be shocked if they ever do. Or for that matter, that they ever had that as a goal. Seems to me they are getting what they want.

patteeu
11-26-2012, 02:56 PM
ok, mr. romney, name a few specific options that would have worked...

specific options...

One option would have been to elect John McCain in 2008.

The idea that if some guy on a football messageboard doesn't present a specific course of action that everyone can agree would work then it proves that nothing could have led to a better result than what we got is ridiculous.

That said, I've already listed some of the levers we could have used to influence the situation. We should have tried to support Mubarack while pushing him to placate his people with political reforms. If that didn't work and Mubarack was going to step down, we could have supported a replacement from the military along with political liberalization. If that didn't work, we could have used our influence to encourage the military to insist on retaining a share of the power knowing that if push came to shove they could count on our support in the power struggle. If that didn't work, we could continue to use every aspect of our leverage, both overt and covert, to prevent ending up with a MB dictatorship. Instead, we did pretty much the opposite at each and every point. In the end, the scoreboard agrees with me, at least at this point.

go bowe
11-26-2012, 03:03 PM
One option would have been to elect John McCain in 2008.

The idea that if some guy on a football messageboard doesn't present a specific course of action that everyone can agree would work then it proves that nothing could have led to a better result than what we got is ridiculous.

That said, I've already listed some of the levers we could have used to influence the situation. We should have tried to support Mubarack while pushing him to placate his people with political reforms. If that didn't work and Mubarack was going to step down, we could have supported a replacement from the military along with political liberalization. If that didn't work, we could have used our influence to encourage the military to insist on retaining a share of the power knowing that if push came to shove they could count on our support in the power struggle. If that didn't work, we could continue to use every aspect of our leverage, both overt and covert, to prevent ending up with a MB dictatorship. Instead, we did pretty much the opposite at each and every point. In the end, the scoreboard agrees with me, at least at this point.

it seems you have misapprehended my question...

i didn't ask for options that everyone agrees would have worked, i asked for options that YOU think would have worked...

and the suggestion that my question would somehow prove anything is just that - your suggestion...

putting words in my mouth is ridiculous...

painting strawmen as ridiculous is ridiculous...

have you joined the bep school of reasoning?

patteeu
11-26-2012, 03:12 PM
it seems you have misapprehended my question...

i didn't ask for options that everyone agrees would have worked, i asked for options that YOU think would have worked...

and the suggestion that my question would somehow prove anything is just that - your suggestion...

putting words in my mouth is ridiculous...

painting strawmen as ridiculous is ridiculous...

have you joined the bep school of reasoning?

OK, even if I misapprehended your question, you got an answer to the less ridiculous question you say you were asking.

HonestChieffan
11-26-2012, 06:05 PM
Carney helped clarify today. For all intents and purposes the administration seems to support Morsi. The dictatorial powers he has declared are his alone is a step on the road to democracy. Who would have known?

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/334082/white-house-concerned-about-morsis-power-grab-wont-condemn-it-eliana-johnson

Asked whether the White House was forewarned about President Morsi’s power grab, Jay Carney said today that the administration has “expressed and raised concerns” about it. He also said that the power grab is part of Egypt’s “transition to democracy”:

“Our interest in the development and transition to democracy in Egypt is one that reflects what the Egyptian people demanded through their revolution, and continue to demand, which is a government that reflects the will of the people. And we will continue to work towards that goal, because it reflects what the Egyptian people want. ”

WoodDraw
11-26-2012, 06:42 PM
The military still has massive power in Egypt. Right now you have a power play between the MB, the military, and the secularists. This will keep going on for awhile, I'm sure. The process of creating a new government from scratch is never pretty.

So you have to look at it in that context. Mursi was trying to stop the courts from dissolving the government again.

Anyway, what's the big deal? He made a statement, the public got pissed, and he had to walk it back. Isn't that how democracy works?

BucEyedPea
11-26-2012, 06:54 PM
Yeah, it is a power play but the military is the hidden govt there. They get enough aid from us to keep order there but not start a war with Israel.

Pawnmower
11-26-2012, 07:08 PM
We can't really do anything if the MB want to impose a dictatorship..It isn't our place.

It is time to let the people decide....We can't win if we meddle and try to instill our version of democracy...

When shit goes wrong (and it will) they will have the USA to blame.

Nah...much better is to (as Obama is doing, and any other sane person) let them figure it out...sure we can make suggestions or lead by example...but hands off.

That way when shit goes wrong, it is on them.

There is nothing to gain long term by having a short term band-aid that rips open even worse when it comes off. Nothing.

BigRedChief
11-27-2012, 07:07 PM
One option would have been to elect John McCain in 2008.

The idea that if some guy on a football messageboard doesn't present a specific course of action that everyone can agree would work then it proves that nothing could have led to a better result than what we got is ridiculous.

That said, I've already listed some of the levers we could have used to influence the situation. We should have tried to support Mubarack while pushing him to placate his people with political reforms. If that didn't work and Mubarack was going to step down, we could have supported a replacement from the military along with political liberalization. If that didn't work, we could have used our influence to encourage the military to insist on retaining a share of the power knowing that if push came to shove they could count on our support in the power struggle. If that didn't work, we could continue to use every aspect of our leverage, both overt and covert, to prevent ending up with a MB dictatorship. Instead, we did pretty much the opposite at each and every point. In the end, the scoreboard agrees with me, at least at this point.Support Murbarack? You kidding?LMAO

Wellll it looks like the people don't want a dictator, even a muslim brotherhood dictator.

stevieray
11-27-2012, 07:10 PM
Prophecy being fulfilled.

Direckshun
12-08-2012, 04:50 PM
Morsi just cancelled out his decree.

Egyptians are absolutely amazing.

Vote on the new Constitution will be up to a popular vote (I'm unfamiliar with how much support it needs to pass) in a week or so.

Dave Lane
12-08-2012, 04:53 PM
Prophecy being fulfilled.

Don't you have some spandex to iron?

stevieray
12-08-2012, 06:13 PM
Don't you have some spandex to iron?

:drool: still got nothing, dave?

don't you have to take pictures of something with no purpose?

I gotta tell you lane, after ten years of having fun at games, only the most insecure guys can't handle it.

every.single.time.

BigRedChief
12-08-2012, 08:40 PM
:drool: still got nothing, dave?

don't you have to take pictures of something with no purpose?

I gotta tell you lane, after ten years of having fun at games, only the most insecure guys can't handle it.

every.single.time.That playoff game in 2006 at Indy we had some dicey moments with the Colts fans.