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View Full Version : Int'l Issues So why does Israel prevent Gaza exports?


Direckshun
11-27-2012, 07:05 AM
Though I disagree with it, I can understand why Israel would block imports to Gaza. Israel must watch out for its own safety, but there's no question in my mind that these measures which are designed to be preventative are carried out in ways that are clearly punitive to the Palestinian people in the wake of their election of Hamas.

But blocking exports from Gaza?

The article at the very end posits a couple different reasons for this, one of which is that this is punitive, to punish the Palestinian people for their sins against Israel and their embrace of Hamas. And while that may play into it, I think the article's other explanation is easier to consider: allowing Gaza to participate economically with its neighbors would at least nominally enrich it, as trade always does. It will increase its ties with its neighbors, and allow the Gazans to effectively function a little more as an autonomous state.

All of which would only aid Palestinians in their striving for their own state.

So, clearly this must be stopped.

Please, tell me how I'm how wrong/supportive of Hamas/anti-Semitic I am in thinking preventing Gazan exports is yet more evidence of the Likud's total indifference to the two-state solution.

And please tell me how Israel isn't inching closer to full-on apartheid of the Palestinian people.

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/11/the-mainstream-medias-biased-coverage-of-the-gaza-blockade/265565/

The Mainstream Media's Biased Coverage of the Gaza Blockade
By Robert Wright
Nov 25 2012, 10:34 PM ET

There's reason to hope that the ceasefire between Hamas and Israel will lead to an easing of Israel's suffocating economic blockade of Gaza. The ceasefire text said that "opening the crossings and facilitating the movements of people and transfer of goods... shall be dealt with after 24 hours from the start of the ceasefire." But, more than 100 hours later, we're still waiting for word of actual progress.

Meanwhile, if you're wondering where to turn for background information about the blockade, I have this guidance: stay as far away from mainstream media as possible.

Sadly typical of the way the MSM covers the issue is a recent New York Times piece about the ceasefire by David Kirkpatrick and Jodi Rudoren (both of whom have done excellent work on other issues in the region). The piece described the blockade as "Israel's tight restrictions on the border crossings into Gaza under a seven-year-old embargo imposed to thwart Hamas from arming itself."

Putting it this way is a real time saver, not just because it fits into a single short sentence, but because, if you're too busy to actually write that sentence, the Israeli government's press office would be happy to do it for you. But this description of the blockade raises a question:

If the essential purpose of the blockade were indeed to "thwart Hamas from arming itself," wouldn't restrictions on imports into Gaza suffice? (And even then the import restrictions wouldn't have to be as draconian as they were when imposed, or even as tight as they are now, after some loosening.) What I'd like to see an enterprising MSM reporter ask is: How do Israel's severe restrictions on Gazan exports keep arms from getting to Hamas?

Kirkpatrick and Rudoren, later in their piece, do elaborate a bit on Israel's motivation for imposing the blockade. But not enough. After raising the prospect that Egypt may open the Rafah crossing into Gaza, they write that "Israel enforces its embargo on the other sides of Gaza, fearing that it would face an influx of refugees or end up with responsibility for the impoverished enclave."

Fearing "an influx of refugees" doesn't explain why Israel won't let Gazans put whatever goods they want to export on a ship and send them across the Mediterranean to Europe or Africa. Nor, really, does this fear explain the other side of the export restrictions--not letting Gaza export much of anything to Israel or the West Bank. Making sure that exports were confined to goods, and didn't include people, would be readily doable. Israelis know a thing or two about how to set up an effective checkpoint.

The closest Kirkpatrick and Rudoren get to a plausible reason for the export restrictions is in positing an Israeli fear of winding up "with responsibility for the impoverished enclave." But even here they're not putting nearly a fine enough point on it. Here's the fine-point version:

Recall that a very plausible motivation for Ariel Sharon's withdrawal from Gaza in 2005 was to address "the demographic problem"--the fact that the number of Palestinians in the occupied territory, plus the number in Israel proper, was beginning to approach the number of Israeli Jews. That meant that if Israel's aggressive settlement program eventually led to Israel's absorption of the occupied territories, Israel wouldn't remain a Jewish state unless it were an apartheid state--i.e., unless it continued to deny Palestinian inhabitants of the occupied territories the right to vote. But once you remove Gaza from the equation, and define it as outside of the occupied territory, the math changes (though Gazans contend their territory is still, for practical purposes, occupied, since Israel controls the ports and airspace and the Israeli border and enters Gaza at will to kill Gazans). In this scenario--the divide and conquer scenario--the last thing Israel wants to do now is permit the sort of organic economic ties between Gaza and the West Bank that would make it easier to think of their Palestinian inhabitants as a single people.

There's one other possible motivation for Israel's severe restrictions on commerce involving Gaza: collective punishment. Maybe Israeli leaders want to keep all of Gaza impoverished as payback for the sins of Hamas. Maybe they even think that this impoverishment will lead Gazans to reject Hamas. If so, I have bad news: If Gazans reject Hamas, it will be in favor of Islamic Jihad or even more radical elements, in keeping with the general principle that imposing unjust suffering on people empowers extremists.

Donger
11-27-2012, 07:14 AM
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202_162-57553851/israel-eases-gaza-border-restrictions-after-truce/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+CbsNewsTheEarlyShowParenting+%28CBS+News%3A+The+Early+Show%3A+Parenting%29

stevieray
11-27-2012, 07:21 AM
this year alone...how many thousands of rockets?

HonestChieffan
11-27-2012, 07:22 AM
They dont like each other.

Direckshun
11-27-2012, 07:33 AM
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202_162-57553851/israel-eases-gaza-border-restrictions-after-truce/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+CbsNewsTheEarlyShowParenting+%28CBS+News%3A+The+Early+Show%3A+Parenting%29

Why does Israel inhibit Gaza exports?

ForeverChiefs58
11-27-2012, 07:37 AM
If Mexico elected al qaida as their new govt even through they were sworn to our destrucshun, sent suicide bombers, targeted our childern and launched thousands of rockets at random targets in our big cities, they would no longer exist.

You really are an embarrassment to idiots.

Garcia Bronco
11-27-2012, 07:46 AM
I fully support Israels right to defend itself from violent objectors to its existence. Its coming too. There will be a knockdown fight sooner rqther than later. Israel will not allow Iran to get a nuke. I wouldn't either.

HonestChieffan
11-27-2012, 08:03 AM
The Jews want a monopoly.

ROYC75
11-27-2012, 08:19 AM
Why does Israel inhibit Gaza exports?

At first I thought you were smart enough to understand this, but then reality set in that I was talking to a Pro Palestinian everything so I can see that you are only whining.

Donger
11-27-2012, 08:22 AM
Why does Israel inhibit Gaza exports?

I would imagine because they want to prevent Hamas gaining any more power, in the case of exports, via money.

mnchiefsguy
11-27-2012, 08:28 AM
Perhaps when the Palestinians start acting like a civilized entity, they will get treated like one. If they want to export and establish trade, then quit trying to kill women and children.

In addition, Hamas would use the financial gain to buy more bombs and rockets, in which they would launch at....you guessed it, Israel.

ROYC75
11-27-2012, 08:51 AM
Gee guys, I didn't want to explain it to him. I wanted to let him think it over since he doesn't see this.

ForeverChiefs58
11-27-2012, 09:51 AM
Seriously, are you so blind that you can't see this?

It makes as much sense as going into the lounge and making a thread "So why do people prevent Matt Cassellllllllll from being our starting QB?" If you did that no one would take your football posts seriously.


Take a step back for a sec. The people that you support, are also supported by the largest exporter of terrorism, the very same people who have also killed tens of thousands in syria, as well as many deaths and acts of terrorism and killing of innocents around the world.

Where is your condemnation against these people? The people who have put the palestinians where they are? You should put your passion and blame where it belongs, into being against the very terrorists that try to parade around like they should be legit and negotiated with while shooting rockets at random targets and calling for the others destruction.

La literatura
11-27-2012, 10:37 AM
Seriously, are you so blind that you can't see this?

It makes as much sense as going into the lounge and making a thread "So why do people prevent Matt Cassellllllllll from being our starting QB?" If you did that no one would take your football posts seriously.


Take a step back for a sec. The people that you support, are also supported by the largest exporter of terrorism,

Ah, I see. Hamas exports terrorism. Stop the exports. Stop the terrorism. Makes sense.

ROYC75
11-27-2012, 10:54 AM
Ah, I see. Hamas exports terrorism. Stop the exports. Stop the terrorism. Makes sense.

What could they be sending out in exports expecting to be used to buy more weapons or payment of past weapons ?

HonestChieffan
11-27-2012, 11:05 AM
They make flying carpets dont they?

ForeverChiefs58
11-27-2012, 12:03 PM
Ah, I see. Hamas exports terrorism. Stop the exports. Stop the terrorism. Makes sense.

Right.

Many of the terrorist factions are supported by iran, but the same people with open support to the palestinians refuse to condemn the worst enemy of peace.

mnchiefsguy
11-27-2012, 12:29 PM
Ah, I see. Hamas exports terrorism. Stop the exports. Stop the terrorism. Makes sense.

The less money Hamas has, the less missiles and rockets they can buy. So in a sense, yes.

patteeu
11-27-2012, 12:50 PM
That's an idiotic theory created by a prejudiced mind.

patteeu
11-27-2012, 12:56 PM
If your theory were correct, Israel would continue to refuse to allow Gazans to export if Hamas were removed and the Gazans expressed an interest in a peaceful, two-state solution. I don't think there's a chance in hell (the gate to which is apparently located somewhere in Gaza according to Hamas) that we'll get to test your theory under those conditions anytime soon. The problem is Hamas and it's palestinian supporters, not Israel or Likud.

ForeverChiefs58
11-27-2012, 01:10 PM
If your theory were correct, Israel would continue to refuse to all Gazans to export if Hamas were removed and the Gazan's expressed an interest in a peaceful, two-state solution. I don't think there's a chance in hell (the gate to which is apparently located somewhere in Gaza according to Hamas) that we'll get to test your theory under those conditions anytime soon. The problem is Hamas and it's palestinian supporters, not Israel or Likud.


http://www.shinyshiny.tv/5_facebook-like-button.jpg

Pawnmower
11-27-2012, 03:03 PM
To prevent money from ending up in the hands of Hamas?

To prevent Hamas from buying more rockets and weapons with that money?

Because there is a naval blockade in place right now because Gazans have elected people (Hamas) to represent them who believe in this:

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp


You are making it much more difficult than it has to be....heck even Netanyahu , Obama , and Abbas understand this....

Hamas must renounce the Covenant, agree to negotiate, and give up the "jihad is the only solution" clauses in their platform. Period.

If they did that, I firmly believe Israel would have no choice but to acknowledge them as a state, and end the blockade.

Really, its up to the Palestinian people...

Direckshun
11-27-2012, 04:09 PM
I fully support Israels right to defend itself from violent objectors to its existence. Its coming too. There will be a knockdown fight sooner rqther than later. Israel will not allow Iran to get a nuke. I wouldn't either.

This doesn't even come close to answering the OP.

Direckshun
11-27-2012, 04:09 PM
I would imagine because they want to prevent Hamas gaining any more power, in the case of exports, via money.

What does more power do for Hamas that's so threatening?

Wound the Likud's chances at a Greater Israel solution?

Direckshun
11-27-2012, 04:11 PM
Perhaps when the Palestinians start acting like a civilized entity, they will get treated like one. If they want to export and establish trade, then quit trying to kill women and children.

So it's punitive. You're impoverishing them to punish them.

In addition, Hamas would use the financial gain to buy more bombs and rockets, in which they would launch at....you guessed it, Israel.

Um, Hamas is getting the rockets and bombs they want for free.

Direckshun
11-27-2012, 04:11 PM
That's an idiotic theory created by a prejudiced mind.

Explain yourself.

Direckshun
11-27-2012, 04:12 PM
If your theory were correct, Israel would continue to refuse to allow Gazans to export if Hamas were removed and the Gazans expressed an interest in a peaceful, two-state solution. I don't think there's a chance in hell (the gate to which is apparently located somewhere in Gaza according to Hamas) that we'll get to test your theory under those conditions anytime soon. The problem is Hamas and it's palestinian supporters, not Israel or Likud.

Explain yourself.

Donger
11-27-2012, 04:15 PM
So it's punitive. You're impoverishing them to punish them.

Of course it's punitive. The embargo started when Hamas was elected in, right? And the Egyptians agreed with it.

Um, Hamas is getting the rockets and bombs they want for free.

Indeed. Just imagine what new goodies they could throw at Israel with more funds.

patteeu
11-27-2012, 04:16 PM
What does more power do for Hamas that's so threatening?

Wound the Likud's chances at a Greater Israel solution?

You keep referring to some Greater Israel idea that you attribute to Likud. Is there any kind of mission statement that you can point to to support your accusation like that to which Hamas critics point to support the contention that Hamas seeks to destroy the Jewish state? Or is this just something your pro-palestinian gut instincts tell you?

Donger
11-27-2012, 04:16 PM
What does more power do for Hamas that's so threatening?

Wound the Likud's chances at a Greater Israel solution?

Sorry the thread hasn't gone quite the way you wanted it...

Direckshun
11-27-2012, 04:16 PM
To prevent money from ending up in the hands of Hamas?

To prevent Hamas from buying more rockets and weapons with that money?

Hamas gets their weaponry for free.

You are making it much more difficult than it has to be....heck even Netanyahu , Obama , and Abbas understand this....

Hamas must renounce the Covenant, agree to negotiate, and give up the "jihad is the only solution" clauses in their platform. Period.

If they did that, I firmly believe Israel would have no choice but to acknowledge them as a state, and end the blockade.

Really, its up to the Palestinian people...

Then don't punish the Palestinian people, if they're so important. Don't intentionally impoverish them. Don't steal their land. Don't terrorize them. Don't cram them into a malnourished shanty town and cut them off from the planet.

Or do all of these things, and expect Palestinian radicalism, and a Middle East and an international community that holds you in contempt.

Because those are your choices.

Direckshun
11-27-2012, 04:17 PM
Of course it's punitive.

Yup.

Indeed. Just imagine what new goodies they could throw at Israel with more funds.

The meager earnings a nascent market could gather are not going to get you anything advanced more than what they're already getting.

Donger
11-27-2012, 04:17 PM
Direckshun, perhaps you could answer why you think Israel should completely end the restrictions?

Direckshun
11-27-2012, 04:20 PM
You keep referring to some Greater Israel idea that you attribute to Likud. Is there any kind of mission statement that you can point to to support your accusation like that to which Hamas critics point to support the contention that Hamas seeks to destroy the Jewish state?

When you engage in a series of actions designed to make the two-state solution less and less feasible, it's evident that you're not looking for the two-state solution.

Netanyahu and the Likud want all the land.

Direckshun
11-27-2012, 04:20 PM
Sorry the thread hasn't gone quite the way you wanted it...

The only thread that doesn't go the way I want is the one that doesn't take off.

If we're talking, then most times I'm getting what I want.

Direckshun
11-27-2012, 04:22 PM
Direckshun, perhaps you could answer why you think Israel should completely end the restrictions?

I'm not sure they should. I think exercising some restrictions is reasonable.

I do advocate a demilitarized Palestine, after all.

Here's the issue:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-YtlOJy6MNAk/ULUIaPg84aI/AAAAAAAAAns/PJdavfAhL1U/s1600/Gaza+Exports.png

Israel agreed to 400 trucks leaving Palestine per day. They almost never let any, ever.

That's economic warfare.

Edit: It's also a symptom of apartheid.

Donger
11-27-2012, 04:23 PM
Huh. Looks like the Qassam rocket is indigenously produced.

Sorry Direckshun.

Donger
11-27-2012, 04:25 PM
I'm not sure they should. I think exercising some restrictions is reasonable.

I do advocate a demilitarized Palestine, after all.

Here's the issue:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-YtlOJy6MNAk/ULUIaPg84aI/AAAAAAAAAns/PJdavfAhL1U/s1600/Gaza+Exports.png

That's economic warfare.

Oh good. Since Israel has eased the restrictions, you should be happy. Of course, it's just another good faith movement by Israel that won't be reciprocated.

Direckshun
11-27-2012, 04:28 PM
Oh good. Since Israel has eased the restrictions, you should be happy. Of course, it's just another good faith movement by Israel that won't be reciprocated.

Israel hasn't lived up to their current restrictions.

Direckshun
11-27-2012, 04:28 PM
Huh. Looks like the Qassam rocket is indigenously produced.

Sorry Direckshun.

You lost me.

Donger
11-27-2012, 04:30 PM
Israel hasn't lived up to their current restrictions.

Well, gee, do you think that maybe the reason for that is that Hamas came to power in Gaza? Why should Israel empower and enrich a terrorist group which is a sworn enemy and who occasionally lobs rockets into Israel?

Donger
11-27-2012, 04:31 PM
You lost me.

You claimed that Hamas get their weaponry for free.

Direckshun
11-27-2012, 04:33 PM
Well, gee, do you think that maybe the reason for that is that Hamas came to power in Gaza?

They weren't living up to their end of the deal prior to Hamas' ascent to power. Not even close.

Direckshun
11-27-2012, 04:34 PM
You claimed that Hamas get their weaponry for free.

For the most part, they are. They have no real money to buy weaponry.

Donger
11-27-2012, 04:38 PM
They weren't living up to their end of the deal prior to Hamas' ascent to power. Not even close.

Well, yeah. The paradigm changed obviously when the "Palestinians" foolishly elected in a terrorist group to lead them in Gaza.

You think Israel should have kept the AMA agreement even after Hamas was elected into power?

Direckshun
11-27-2012, 04:41 PM
Well, yeah. The paradigm changed obviously when the "Palestinians" foolishly elected in a terrorist group to lead them in Gaza.

You think Israel should have kept the AMA agreement even after Hamas was elected into power?

My point is, it doesn't matter, because they weren't living up to it anyway.

Donger
11-27-2012, 04:41 PM
For the most part, they are. They have no real money to buy weaponry.

And some aren't. So, keeping more money out of the hands of Hamas is beneficial to Israel.

Direckshun
11-27-2012, 04:42 PM
And some aren't. So, keeping more money out of the hands of Hamas is beneficial to Israel.

The amount of weaponry they're buying is nominal.

Almost all the weaponry they're using, they're using for free.

RNR
11-27-2012, 04:42 PM
Well, yeah. The paradigm changed obviously when the "Palestinians" foolishly elected in a terrorist group to lead them in Gaza.

You think Israel should have kept the AMA agreement even after Hamas was elected into power?

There is always a market in the Middle East for idiots willing to blow themselves up in the hopes of getting laid. With the right marketing it could be very profitable if Israel will just get out of the way~

Donger
11-27-2012, 04:43 PM
My point is, it doesn't matter, because they weren't living up to it anyway.

What's the source for your graph, BTW?

Donger
11-27-2012, 04:44 PM
The amount of weaponry they're buying is nominal.

Almost all the weaponry they're using, they're using for free.

Really? Source?

Direckshun
11-27-2012, 04:58 PM
What's the source for your graph, BTW?

UN OCHA, their Gaza Crossings Activity Database.

http://www.ochaopt.org/dbs/Crossings/CommodityReports.aspx?id=1010003

Donger
11-27-2012, 05:00 PM
UN OCHA, their Gaza Crossings Activity Database.

http://www.ochaopt.org/dbs/Crossings/CommodityReports.aspx?id=1010003

Thanks. And do you know why the number of crossings decreased in 2006?

Direckshun
11-27-2012, 05:02 PM
Really? Source?

Hamas doesn't have hardly any money, yet they're capable of launching thousands of rockets from mobile launchpads.

Did they buy thousands of mobile rocket launchers?

Direckshun
11-27-2012, 05:03 PM
Thanks. And do you know why the number of crossings decreased in 2006?

The point is, that even with Hamas in power, Israel had not come remotely close to living up to their end of the deal.

Prior to Hamas coming into power, prior to, they were still not meeting the restrictions they themselves agreed to.

patteeu
11-27-2012, 05:03 PM
Explain yourself.

Explain yourself.

I assume you realize that when Israel unilaterally pulled out of Gaza and handed it over to the palestinians in another in their long line of efforts to make peace, they left behind an export business based on agriculture in the form of some massive greenhouses, right? The Gaza experiment in palestinian autonomy has been a huge failure through the self-destructive actions of the palestinians, not because of the big, bad Israelis or Likud.

Direckshun
11-27-2012, 05:05 PM
I assume you realize that when Israel unilaterally pulled out of Gaza and handed it over to the palestinians in another in their long line of efforts to make peace, they left behind an export business based on agriculture in the form of some massive greenhouses, right? The Gaza experiment in palestinian autonomy has been a huge failure through the self-destructive actions of the palestinians, not because of the big, bad Israelis or Likud.

Can't export your business if your ability to do that is being strangled by the people in power.

Donger
11-27-2012, 05:05 PM
Hamas doesn't have hardly any money, yet they're capable of launching thousands of rockets from mobile launchpads.

Did they buy thousands of mobile rocket launchers?

I don't have the break down of the type of rockets that Hamas launched at Israel recently. Do you?

Direckshun
11-27-2012, 05:05 PM
I don't have the break down of the type of rockets that Hamas launched at Israel recently. Do you?

I did at one point, when then conflict was going on. It was mostly shit rockets with no aiming capacity.

Donger
11-27-2012, 05:06 PM
The point is, that even with Hamas in power, Israel had not come remotely close to living up to their end of the deal.

Prior to Hamas coming into power, prior to, they were still not meeting the restrictions they themselves agreed to.

And I'm asking you if you know WHY the levels didn't reach what was agreed to or not, even before Hamas came to power. You seem to blame Israel for that, correct?

Direckshun
11-27-2012, 05:07 PM
And I'm asking you if you know WHY the levels didn't reach what was agreed to or not. You seem to blame Israel for that, correct?

You were asking me about the shift in their enforcement in 2006. But I digress.

I don't think the blame is binary, but yes, Israel shares the vast majority of it on this particular score.

Donger
11-27-2012, 05:08 PM
I did at one point, when then conflict was going on. It was mostly shit rockets with no aiming capacity.

Seems like that's rather important data to have, no?

Direckshun
11-27-2012, 05:08 PM
Seems like that's rather important data to have, no?

I would agree. What was your point in asking?

Donger
11-27-2012, 05:09 PM
You were asking me about the shift in their enforcement in 2006. But I digress.

I don't think the blame is binary, but yes, Israel shares the vast majority of it on this particular score.

What I am asking you is if you know why the level of truck crossings out of Gaza never reached the agreed to goal of 400 per day per the AMA.

Do you know why or not? If you know, please tell me. If you don't know, I'll inform you.

Donger
11-27-2012, 05:11 PM
I would agree. What was your point in asking?

Because none of the rockets have any real internal guidance, or "shit" rockets to use your expression. Including the one's they build themselves.

Direckshun
11-27-2012, 05:13 PM
What I am asking you is if you know why the level of truck crossings out of Gaza never reached the agreed to goal of 400 per day per the AMA.

Do you know why or not? If you know, please tell me. If you don't know, I'll inform you.

I've already shared my own personal answer to that particular issue in the OP.

Direckshun
11-27-2012, 05:13 PM
Because none of the rockets have any real internal guidance, or "shit" rockets to use your expression. Including the one's they build themselves.

Right.

Still don't follow your point, though.

Donger
11-27-2012, 05:17 PM
I've already shared my own personal answer to that particular issue in the OP.

I see. So, you knew that the main reason that the Karni crossing didn't meet the AMA goals was Israel closing the crossing due to repeated Hamas attacks on the crossing and that pesky tunnel that was being dug under it?

Is that right?

Donger
11-27-2012, 05:20 PM
Right.

Still don't follow your point, though.

The point is that allowing more exports lets Hamas get more money.

They could use that money to build more indigenous weaponry, such as the Qassam rocket.

You stated that they get their weaponry for free.

That isn't the case. They manufacture some themselves.

Pretty basic stuff.

Direckshun
11-27-2012, 05:24 PM
I see. So, you knew that the main reason that the Karni crossing didn't meet the AMA goals was Israel closing the crossing due to repeated Hamas attacks on the crossing and that pesky tunnel that was being dug under it?

Is that right?

I knew a couple of the crossings had been attacked.

The Karni crossing is only one crossing. It's not *the* crossing for Gaza. There are like seven or eight of them. And again, that doesn't account for the fact that Israel was not meeting the AMA standards prior to these attacks.

Really, this is a microcosm of the whole issue:

If you oppress people, they will seek extralegal solutions. If you push them to the brink, make them feel like their very survival is at stake, they will radicalize. And they will embrace assholes like Hamas.

Israel's insanity on restricting exports bullshit feeds these attacks. The reason to attack these points is largely deflated if you allow exports to flow.

Donger
11-27-2012, 05:25 PM
I knew a couple of the crossings had been attacked.

The Karni crossing is only one crossing. It's not *the* crossing for Gaza. There are like seven or eight of them. And again, that doesn't account for the fact that Israel was not meeting the AMA standards prior to these attacks.

Really, this is a microcosm of the whole issue:

If you oppress people, they will seek extralegal solutions. If you push them to the brink, make them feel like their very survival is at stake, they will radicalize. And they will embrace assholes like Hamas.

Israel's insanity on restricting exports bullshit feeds these attacks. The reason to attack these points is largely deflated if you allow exports to flow.

Do you know what crossing your graph above shows?

Direckshun
11-27-2012, 05:25 PM
The point is that allowing more exports lets Hamas get more money.

They could use that money to build more indigenous weaponry, such as the Qassam rocket.

You stated that they get their weaponry for free.

That isn't the case. They manufacture some themselves.

Pretty basic stuff.

With materials they can access for free. The people feeding them weapons will feed them simple materials for better weapons if they think it is easier to smuggle.

Direckshun
11-27-2012, 05:29 PM
Do you know what crossing your graph above shows?

All potential crossings. Karni is not the only crossing represented there. And it's not the only place Gaza could export out of.

patteeu
11-27-2012, 05:30 PM
When you engage in a series of actions designed to make the two-state solution less and less feasible, it's evident that you're not looking for the two-state solution.

Netanyahu and the Likud want all the land.

So no charter, no mission statement, no speeches about Greater Israel? Just your perverted interpretation of events?

Netanyahu wants a secure peace for Israel. He'd take a two-state solution in a heartbeat if there were any realistic chance that it could create a lasting peace. With Hamas in charge in Gaza, clearly with the support of a large segment of the palestinian people, and with no legitimate partner for peace to be found even among the less radical (but still non-moderate) segments of the palestinian political establishment, how can you expect Netanyahu make all the concessions?

Donger
11-27-2012, 05:33 PM
All potential crossings. Karni is not the only crossing represented there. And it's not the only place Gaza could export out of.

Okay.

Well, I'm glad that you acknowledge that the reason the Israelis haven't met the agreement number of truck crossing because of Hamas' actions. It isn't really surprising considering that Hamas doesn't want peace with Israel, as you also acknowledge.

It would have been intellectually honest of you to mention those acts of aggression by Hamas when you posted that meanie graph, BTW.

"Economic warfare" indeed...

Direckshun
11-27-2012, 05:34 PM
So no charter, no mission statement, no speeches about Greater Israel?

What do I care about what Likud's public relations department is saying or not saying?

Actions, brother. Actions.

Netanyahu wants a secure peace for Israel. He'd take a two-state solution in a heartbeat if there were any realistic chance that it could create a lasting peace. With Hamas in charge in Gaza, clearly with the support of a large segment of the palestinian people, and with no legitimate partner for peace to be found even among the less radical (but still non-moderate) segments of the palestinian political establishment, how can you expect Netanyahu make all the concessions?

I don't expect Netanyahu to make all the concessions.

I expect him to make the major ones necessary to make a two-state solution possible.

patteeu
11-27-2012, 05:35 PM
They weren't living up to their end of the deal prior to Hamas' ascent to power. Not even close.

Have you ever considered the possibility that Israel was living up to their end of the deal but the palestinians weren't taking advantage of it? Remember those greenhouses I mentioned? The palestinians didn't use them to grow produce for export, they destroyed them.

Direckshun
11-27-2012, 05:36 PM
Okay.

Well, I'm glad that you acknowledge that the reason the Israelis haven't met the agreement number of truck crossing because of Hamas' actions. It isn't really surprising considering that Hamas doesn't want peace with Israel, as you also acknowledge.

It would have been intellectually honest of you to mention those acts of aggression by Hamas when you posted that meanie graph, BTW.

"Economic warfare" indeed...

It is economic warfare. And the door-knockings of apartheid.

Again, these attacks occur because of oppression. They don't occur in a vaccuum.

Allow trade to flow with reasonable regulations to procure safety, and the attacks on these passes will fall.

Direckshun
11-27-2012, 05:36 PM
Have you ever considered the possibility that Israel was living up to their end of the deal but the palestinians weren't taking advantage of it?

Right. The Palestinians didn't want commerce.

patteeu
11-27-2012, 05:38 PM
Can't export your business if your ability to do that is being strangled by the people in power.

Explain yourself.

patteeu
11-27-2012, 05:41 PM
What do I care about what Likud's public relations department is saying or not saying?

Actions, brother. Actions.



I don't expect Netanyahu to make all the concessions.

I expect him to make the major ones necessary to make a two-state solution possible.

When he finds a legitimate partner for peace, perhaps he will. Until then, the ball seems to be in the palestinians' court.

Direckshun
11-27-2012, 05:43 PM
Explain yourself.

Check the OP.

Direckshun
11-27-2012, 05:46 PM
When he finds a legitimate partner for peace, perhaps he will. Until then, the ball seems to be in the palestinians' court.

Diplomacy doesn't work like a sport. It's not tennis.

Israel created this mess by ****ing with an ethnic minority who had no real means to resist their force or their ability to essentially impoverish their existence, as they continuously, preemptively steal land from them.

Surprise, surprise, Palestine radicalizes. As if the entirety of human history couldn't have predicted that.

None of the moves the Likud have made under Netanyahu are positive for a two-state solution.

patteeu
11-27-2012, 06:01 PM
Diplomacy doesn't work like a sport. It's not tennis.

It was an apt analogy.

Israel created this mess by ****ing with an ethnic minority who had no real means to resist their force or their ability to essentially impoverish their existence, as they continuously, preemptively steal land from them.

Surprise, surprise, Palestine radicalizes. As if the entirety of human history couldn't have predicted that.

None of the moves the Likud have made under Netanyahu are positive for a two-state solution.

The region's Arabs created this mess by trying to do a late term abortion on Israel. Then those same Arabs had the ability to grant the palestinians a state that included all of the pre-1967 territory but refused to do so. Then those same Arabs lost the pre-1967 territory by continuing to threaten Israel's security. That's quite the revisionist history you have there. What's your take on whether or not the holocaust really happened? :Poke:

Donger
11-27-2012, 06:02 PM
It is economic warfare. And the door-knockings of apartheid.

Again, these attacks occur because of oppression. They don't occur in a vaccuum.

Allow trade to flow with reasonable regulations to procure safety, and the attacks on these passes will fall.

The attacks that shut down the Karni crossing happened because Hamas is a terrorist organization and chose to attack it. It is yet another example of Israel good will being killed by Hamas and the Palestinians who support them.

Donger
11-27-2012, 06:04 PM
Allow trade to flow with reasonable regulations to procure safety, and the attacks on these passes will fall.

Wait, I missed this part. Israel DID allow flow of trade and Hamas chose to attack the crossing. Israel then understandably closed Karni.

You DO realize that, right?

Donger
11-27-2012, 06:06 PM
I don't expect Netanyahu to make all the concessions.

I may have asked before, and if so, I apologize. But, what concessions do you want "the Palestinians" and Hamas to make?

Donger
11-27-2012, 06:08 PM
Explain yourself.

Direckshun is upset that Israel had the gall to close one of the major crossings from Gaza to Israel in response to Hamas attacks on the crossing and them tunneling underneath it with the apparent goal of filling it with explosives and blowing it up (like terrorists do).

Direckshun
11-27-2012, 06:08 PM
The region's Arabs created this mess by trying to do a late term abortion on Israel. Then those same Arabs had the ability to grant the palestinians a state that included all of the pre-1967 territory but refused to do so. Then those same Arabs lost the pre-1967 territory by continuing to threaten Israel's security.

I don't deny that Palestine has blood on its hands, and has shit on the peace process from time to time. But Israel has, as well.

Your inability to accept that is why you are a Republican, and I am not.

Direckshun
11-27-2012, 06:10 PM
The attacks that shut down the Karni crossing happened because Hamas is a terrorist organization and chose to attack it.

Hamas chose to attack it because Israel wasn't living up to their end of the bargain, and it was further impoverishing Palestinians who grew to despise it.

Terror doesn't occur for no reason.

Direckshun
11-27-2012, 06:10 PM
Wait, I missed this part. Israel DID allow flow of trade and Hamas chose to attack the crossing.

Israel allowed a fraction of what it said it would allow, which even then was paltry.

Direckshun
11-27-2012, 06:12 PM
I may have asked before, and if so, I apologize. But, what concessions do you want "the Palestinians" and Hamas to make?

I desire a two-state solution, '67 borders with landswaps. Full recognized statehood for both parties with flowing commerce, and a demilitarized Palestine.

So, whatever concessions Palestine needs to make for that to happen.

Edit: Forgot to mention a shared Jerusalem.

mlyonsd
11-27-2012, 06:16 PM
I desire a two-state solution, '67 borders with landswaps. Full recognized statehood for both parties with flowing commerce, and a demilitarized Palestine.

So, whatever concessions Palestine needs to make for that to happen.

Edit: Forgot to mention a shared Jerusalem.

A full unequivocal right to exist by the Palestinians towards Israel would be a great start and not cost them anything.

Donger
11-27-2012, 06:17 PM
Hamas chose to attack it because Israel wasn't living up to their end of the bargain, and it was further impoverishing Palestinians who grew to despise it.

Link or source for that assertion?

Donger
11-27-2012, 06:18 PM
So, whatever concessions Palestine needs to make for that to happen.

Like what? Please be specific.

Direckshun
11-27-2012, 06:26 PM
A full unequivocal right to exist by the Palestinians towards Israel would be a great start and not cost them anything.

It'd cost them a bargaining chip. You have to think of it as a negotiator.

stevieray
11-27-2012, 06:28 PM
A full unequivocal right to exist by the Palestinians towards Israel would be a great start and not cost them anything.

ya, that messy little detail gets in the way when you think the blame is on Israel, and that ALWAYS gives the Arabs a pass for thousands of rocket attacks.

Direckshun
11-27-2012, 06:32 PM
Link or source for that assertion?

It's the most sensible explanation for why it was targeted. What do you think the attack was about?

Direckshun
11-27-2012, 06:33 PM
Like what? Please be specific.

I post about moves I think Palestine needs to make all the time. I'm not going to do a full song and dance here.

I believe Palestine needs to be demilitarized, and recognize Israel's right to exist, and agree to share Jerusalem.

Donger
11-27-2012, 06:39 PM
It's the most sensible explanation for why it was targeted. What do you think the attack was about?

As you've said, Hamas doesn't WANT peace with Israel.

Donger
11-27-2012, 06:39 PM
I post about moves I think Palestine needs to make all the time. I'm not going to do a full song and dance here.

I believe Palestine needs to be demilitarized, and recognize Israel's right to exist, and agree to share Jerusalem.

Cool, thanks. I agree.

mlyonsd
11-27-2012, 06:46 PM
It'd cost them a bargaining chip. You have to think of it as a negotiator.I'd think they'd gain a bigger bargaining chip by doing so.

Direckshun
11-27-2012, 07:10 PM
I'd think they'd gain a bigger bargaining chip by doing so.

I don't quite think you know how negotiating works.

mnchiefsguy
11-27-2012, 07:27 PM
I don't quite think you know how negotiating works.

I KNOW you don't know how negotiating works.

And the Palestinians don't either. If they did, they would have taken the deal Clinton brokered 12 years ago, and they would have their own nation.

But since they cannot compromise on a simple thing like letting Jews live, they got nothing.

If the Palestinians want to engage in free trade, they need to stop lobbing rockets into Israel and advocating the wiping out of the Jewish race. By doing so, they would lose nothing, and would gain support for their cause from around the world.

When one can gain and give up nothing, and they pass on the opportunity, well one can easily bring their ability to negotiate under scrutiny.

Pawnmower
11-27-2012, 07:32 PM
Hamas gets their weaponry for free.



That is the most absurd thing I have ever heard....

There is nothing free.

LiveSteam
11-27-2012, 10:36 PM
Enjoy the evil that is Hamas

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mlyonsd
11-28-2012, 07:02 AM
I don't quite think you know how negotiating works.

Yeah the Palestians have proven to be awesome negotiators, Their poverty lifestyles are something all of us should strive for.