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Donger
04-23-2013, 11:00 AM
http://news.yahoo.com/muslim-world-hates-u-more-ever-070000727.html

If there was one thing the left was certain about in 2008 it was this: George W. Bush had catastrophically undermined America's world reputation with his unprovoked aggression and use of torture. The advent of Obama would reverse the damage. As Andrew Sullivan wrote in 2007, among best assets Obama brought to the "rebranding" of America was "his face." The election of Obama and his friendly approach to the Muslim world would make the United States safer as well as more just.

No one believed this tale more fervently than Obama himself. His first official act was to direct the closing of Guantanamo Bay within one year and the elimination of harsh interrogation techniques. The "message we are sending around the world," he intoned, "is that the United States intends to prosecute the ongoing struggle ... in a manner that is consistent with our values and our ideals." In Cairo a few months later, he declared, "a new beginning" of relations between America and the Muslim world.

Obama participated in erecting a Bush straw man a Bush who disdained and caricatured Muslims in general and committed war crimes in the name of national security. In fact, Bush had gone to great pains, within hours of the 9/11 attacks, to appear with imams and to stress that Islam was a "religion of peace."

Because Iraq had been Bush's war, as Obama saw it, he squandered the hard-won victory by failing to obtain an agreement that would have kept a stabilizing American force on the ground, electing instead to withdraw completely. And because Afghanistan was the war that Bush allegedly neglected, Obama sent 33,000 more troops (fewer than the generals requested) a surge that, unlike Bush's in Iraq failed, but not before causing 70 percent of the American deaths in that conflict.

Most of all, the Obama administration fled from the concept of a struggle against Islamic terrorism as if fighting jihadis (the small subset of Muslims who've declared war on us) were equivalent to warring against all Muslims. Orwellian language flowed. The war on terror became "overseas contingency operations." When Major Nidal Hassan gunned down his fellow soldiers shouting "Allahu Akbar!" the president warned against jumping to conclusions (a caution he failed to show himself in the Trayvon Martin and Henry Louis Gates cases). His administration later dubbed Hassan's attack "workplace violence" rather than jihadism or terrorism.

When Faisal Shahzad attempted to explode a car bomb in Times Square, the administration at first declared it to be a lone wolf attack, only later reluctantly conceding that the Pakistani Taliban had been culpable. When the consulate in Benghazi was attacked (undermining the administration narrative that al-Qaida had died with bin Laden), the administration conducted a prolonged disinformation campaign designed to deny the obvious.

Tiptoeing through language after the Boston bombings, the administration at first declined to use the word "terror," perhaps fearing that to use the word would imply a Muslim connection. "You use those words and it means something very specific in people's minds," explained David Axelrod. Besides, he continued, the president suspected "tax day" protesters.

What has this excruciating torture of the language and elaborate "rebranding" achieved? The U.S. is not safer. Terror attacks have been attempted at the same rate as during the Bush years (and have been thwarted slightly less successfully). As for U.S. standing in the Muslim world, the Guardian reports that a 2011 poll found favorability ratings for the U.S. have plummeted. "In most countries they are lower than at the end of the Bush administration, and lower than Iran's favorable ratings." A 2012 Pew poll of six predominantly Muslim nations Turkey, Lebanon, Tunisia, Egypt, Jordan and Pakistan found U.S. approval ratings below those during the Bush Administration and well under the popularity of China.

It's one thing to create a bogeyman for political purposes. Obama did it to Bush in 2008 (for use against McCain), and he did it to Romney in 2012. It's quite another to believe your own propaganda and make policy in response. Bush was no anti-Muslim bigot. If he erred, it was in believing too credulously in the readiness for western-style democracy in the Arab world.

As for Obama, his doubletalk about the nature of our enemies jihadis has achieved neither greater safety for Americans nor improved popularity in the Muslim world. He's 0 for 2.

LiveSteam
04-23-2013, 11:08 AM
Meh/ T time is at 2pm ///obama

blaise
04-23-2013, 11:14 AM
But Obama won the Nobel Prize.

loochy
04-23-2013, 11:15 AM
sigh

haters gonna hate

mikey23545
04-23-2013, 11:15 AM
Most of all, the Obama administration fled from the concept of a struggle against Islamic terrorism as if fighting jihadis (the small subset of Muslims who've declared war on us) were equivalent to warring against all Muslims. Orwellian language flowed. The war on terror became "overseas contingency operations." When Major Nidal Hassan gunned down his fellow soldiers shouting "Allahu Akbar!" the president warned against jumping to conclusions (a caution he failed to show himself in the Trayvon Martin and Henry Louis Gates cases). His administration later dubbed Hassan's attack "workplace violence" rather than jihadism or terrorism.


LMAO


IMO, the most dishonest, corrupted, malicious administration in American history.

Donger
04-23-2013, 11:16 AM
I'd like to hear from the Obama supporters on this. Did you really think that Obama, being who and what you thought he was, was really going to change the minds of "the Muslims who hate America"?

mlyonsd
04-23-2013, 11:17 AM
Obama inherited a worse mess than first thought.

Fish
04-23-2013, 11:18 AM
Seems fairly unbiased....

mikey23545
04-23-2013, 11:19 AM
"Most of all, the Obama administration fled from the concept of a struggle against Islamic terrorism as if fighting jihadis (the small subset of Muslims who've declared war on us) were equivalent to warring against all Muslims. Orwellian language flowed. The war on terror became "overseas contingency operations." When Major Nidal Hassan gunned down his fellow soldiers shouting "Allahu Akbar!" the president warned against jumping to conclusions (a caution he failed to show himself in the Trayvon Martin and Henry Louis Gates cases). His administration later dubbed Hassan's attack "workplace violence" rather than jihadism or terrorism."


No doubt the New Boston Massacre will soon be labeled a "horrible cooking accident"...

Donger
04-23-2013, 11:20 AM
Seems fairly unbiased....

LMAO

Hardly, but I don't think that her general point is wrong.

blaise
04-23-2013, 11:21 AM
I'd like to hear from the Obama supporters on this. Did you really think that Obama, being who and what you thought he was, was really going to change the minds of "the Muslims who hate America"?

No, no. It's like the jobs figures - it would have been like 1,000 worse without Obama, therefore it's a smashing success.

BucEyedPea
04-23-2013, 11:23 AM
Did anyone think that Bill Kristol, Paul Wolfowitz, Cheney and company were really to going to change the minds of "Muslims who hate America" by trying to restructure the Middle East along US lines via occupation and nation building?

blaise
04-23-2013, 11:24 AM
Did anyone think that Bill Kristol, Paul Wolfowitz, Cheney and company were really to going to change the minds of "Muslims who hate America" by trying to restructure the Middle East along US lines via occupation and nation building?

Nothing's changing their minds. They're mad because they live in total shitholes.

Fish
04-23-2013, 11:24 AM
LMAO

Hardly, but I don't think that her general point is wrong.

That usually occurs when you share the same biases...

BucEyedPea
04-23-2013, 11:25 AM
Nothing's changing their minds. They're mad because they live in total shitholes.

Riiiight!

Sorter
04-23-2013, 11:25 AM
"Most of all, the Obama administration fled from the concept of a struggle against Islamic terrorism as if fighting jihadis (the small subset of Muslims who've declared war on us) were equivalent to warring against all Muslims. Orwellian language flowed. The war on terror became "overseas contingency operations." When Major Nidal Hassan gunned down his fellow soldiers shouting "Allahu Akbar!" the president warned against jumping to conclusions (a caution he failed to show himself in the Trayvon Martin and Henry Louis Gates cases). His administration later dubbed Hassan's attack "workplace violence" rather than jihadism or terrorism."


No doubt the New Boston Massacre will soon be labeled a "horrible cooking accident"...

Wouldn't doubt it.

mikey23545
04-23-2013, 11:26 AM
Nothing's changing their minds. They're mad because they live in total shitholes.


They'll take my camel away from me when they pry my cold dead fingers...

Demonpenz
04-23-2013, 11:27 AM
not surprising since OBAMA kicked OSAMAS ASS

mikey23545
04-23-2013, 11:27 AM
That usually occurs when you share the same biases...

It really hurts when all that you worshiped and held to be true has fallen apart, doesn't it?

Your little tin god is an abortion of a president - fitting for a liberal, I suppose.

Donger
04-23-2013, 11:27 AM
That usually occurs when you share the same biases...

So you disagree with her general point? Based on what?

Fish
04-23-2013, 11:30 AM
Some of the author's other informative reads:

Obama Doesn't Care About Dead Children
How Guns Are Like Nukes
Democrat Hurricanes Versus Republican Hurricanes
Useful Idiots: How Liberals Got it Wrong in the Cold War and Still Blame America First
Do-Gooders: How Liberals Harm Those They Claim to Help

She's like a bastion of unbiased truth....

mlyonsd
04-23-2013, 11:32 AM
Some of the author's other informative reads:

Obama Doesn't Care About Dead Children
How Guns Are Like Nukes
Democrat Hurricanes Versus Republican Hurricanes
Useful Idiots: How Liberals Got it Wrong in the Cold War and Still Blame America First
Do-Gooders: How Liberals Harm Those They Claim to Help

She's like a bastion of unbiased truth....

Is she distorting the poll findings?

Fish
04-23-2013, 11:34 AM
It really hurts when all that you worshiped and held to be true has fallen apart, doesn't it?

Your little tin god is a failure.

No, I'm not an Obama fan. I'm just pointing out the underlying conservative bias in this silly article.

Donger
04-23-2013, 11:45 AM
No, I'm not an Obama fan. I'm just pointing out the underlying conservative bias in this silly article.

Thanks for pointing out the bias. I'm sure it wasn't evident to everyone...

Now, what is silly about it beyond the bias?

blaise
04-23-2013, 11:45 AM
Some of the author's other informative reads:

Obama Doesn't Care About Dead Children
How Guns Are Like Nukes
Democrat Hurricanes Versus Republican Hurricanes
Useful Idiots: How Liberals Got it Wrong in the Cold War and Still Blame America First
Do-Gooders: How Liberals Harm Those They Claim to Help

She's like a bastion of unbiased truth....

Well then I guess we don't need any Huff Post or Salon articles here either, then.

Saul Good
04-23-2013, 11:54 AM
No, I'm not an Obama fan. I'm just pointing out the underlying conservative bias in this silly article.

It's an opinion piece. Donger is asking for a response to refute any inaccurate statements.

Prison Bitch
04-23-2013, 11:57 AM
But what do women voters think? That's all that matters.

stevieray
04-23-2013, 11:58 AM
But what do women voters think? That's all that matters.Fish already posted.

Comrade Crapski
04-23-2013, 11:59 AM
NASA just has to step up their muslim outreach.

ChiefaRoo
04-23-2013, 12:02 PM
Most of all, the Obama administration fled from the concept of a struggle against Islamic terrorism as if fighting jihadis (the small subset of Muslims who've declared war on us) were equivalent to warring against all Muslims. Orwellian language flowed. The war on terror became "overseas contingency operations." When Major Nidal Hassan gunned down his fellow soldiers shouting "Allahu Akbar!" the president warned against jumping to conclusions (a caution he failed to show himself in the Trayvon Martin and Henry Louis Gates cases). His administration later dubbed Hassan's attack "workplace violence" rather than jihadism or terrorism.


LMAO


IMO, the most dishonest, corrupted, malicious administration in American history.

I'm sorry 52% of the people don't care. Move along

Fish
04-23-2013, 12:03 PM
Thanks for pointing out the bias. I'm sure it wasn't evident to everyone...

Now, what is silly about it beyond the bias?

What's silly is an angry conservative Jewish woman's opinion of Obama and US/Muslim relations. I would have expected pointless tripe like this from BEP or Shitprayer.

Donger
04-23-2013, 12:06 PM
What's silly is an angry conservative Jewish woman's opinion of Obama and US/Muslim relations. I would have expected pointless tripe like this from BEP or Shitprayer.

I suppose I fail to see how her opinion has anything to do with poll results...

Comrade Crapski
04-23-2013, 12:09 PM
What's silly is an angry conservative Jewish woman's opinion of Obama and US/Muslim relations. I would have expected pointless tripe like this from BEP or Shitprayer.

Barry called. He wants his sandals back.

http://theconservativetreehouse.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/barack-obama-beach-450x688-e1300555692306.jpg?w=204&h=300

blaise
04-23-2013, 12:10 PM
The AP just tweeted that there was an explosion in the White House and that Obama was hurt. Seems odd.

Apparently it was hacked.

Fish
04-23-2013, 12:11 PM
I suppose I fail to see how her opinion has anything to do with poll results...

Tell us more about the importance and accuracy of online poll results...

gblowfish
04-23-2013, 12:17 PM
Pat Robertson equates Islam with Nazi Germany and calls for religious war. Allrighty then, Pat. Nice to know where you stand on the issue.

http://tinyurl.com/c5jeo4y

Donger
04-23-2013, 12:17 PM
Tell us more about the importance and accuracy of online poll results...

Why would I do that? You think the polls she mentions were online?

stevieray
04-23-2013, 12:21 PM
angry conservative Jewish woman's

yep, no bias here...LMAO

Hog Farmer
04-23-2013, 12:25 PM
This really got me wondering:

Do you think by now there is an EEL living inside of Bin Ladens skull. Surely the crabs ate his eyeballs and brain by now. Well, maybe not his brain cause it was thrown in a waste basket in Pakistan.

stevieray
04-23-2013, 12:25 PM
Pat Robertson equates Islam with Nazi Germany and calls for religious war. Allrighty then, Pat. Nice to know where you stand on the issue.

http://tinyurl.com/c5jeo4y

google amin al husseini

Fairplay
04-23-2013, 12:26 PM
Nothing's changing their minds. They're mad because they live in total shitholes.



They want everyone to live in shitholes.

ptlyon
04-23-2013, 12:28 PM
Unprovoked???

Amnorix
04-23-2013, 12:29 PM
I'd like to hear from the Obama supporters on this. Did you really think that Obama, being who and what you thought he was, was really going to change the minds of "the Muslims who hate America"?


Well, haters are gonna hate, so no, that wasn't realistic. I think just like in any other situation there is a vast swath of middle of the roaders and undecideds who I think many hoped might be swayed by a dramatically different voice in the White House. That isn't why I voted for Obama (in '08), but it certainly couldn't hurt.

I'd like more insight as to the reasons behind this fall. I suspect that many in the area and its neighbors are somewhat irrationally holding Syria against us. Seemingly, we're often damned if we do and damned if we don't. Leaving Iraq and Afghanistan is also something that needed to happen, but as security has degraded I'm sure that gets held against us too. They hate us when they're there, but then when they leave and things suck worse, they blame us for abandoning them. Pakistanis probably had more reason to like Bush than Obama, but not for reasons that are necessarily good for the US.

I don't have much evidence to support the thoughts I've expressed above, but just based on typical human psychology I'd expect they are largely true.

Comrade Crapski
04-23-2013, 12:31 PM
Oh look, everybody. Barry's toelicker is here.

Well, haters are gonna hate, so no, that wasn't realistic. I think just like in any other situation there is a vast swath of middle of the roaders and undecideds who I think many hoped might be swayed by a dramatically different voice in the White House. That isn't why I voted for Obama (in '08), but it certainly couldn't hurt.

I'd like more insight as to the reasons behind this fall. I suspect that many in the area and its neighbors are somewhat irrationally holding Syria against us. Seemingly, we're often damned if we do and damned if we don't. Leaving Iraq and Afghanistan is also something that needed to happen, but as security has degraded I'm sure that gets held against us too. They hate us when they're there, but then when they leave and things suck worse, they blame us for abandoning them. Pakistanis probably had more reason to like Bush than Obama, but not for reasons that are necessarily good for the US.

I don't have much evidence to support the thoughts I've expressed above, but just based on typical human psychology I'd expect they are largely true.

Fish
04-23-2013, 12:33 PM
yep, no bias here...LMAO

You're just angry because your prayers for Obama's loss in the second term were completely ignored. Pray harder....

Donger
04-23-2013, 12:35 PM
Well, haters are gonna hate, so no, that wasn't realistic. I think just like in any other situation there is a vast swath of middle of the roaders and undecideds who I think many hoped might be swayed by a dramatically different voice in the White House. That isn't why I voted for Obama (in '08), but it certainly couldn't hurt.

I'd like more insight as to the reasons behind this fall. I suspect that many in the area and its neighbors are somewhat irrationally holding Syria against us. Seemingly, we're often damned if we do and damned if we don't. Leaving Iraq and Afghanistan is also something that needed to happen, but as security has degraded I'm sure that gets held against us too. They hate us when they're there, but then when they leave and things suck worse, they blame us for abandoning them. Pakistanis probably had more reason to like Bush than Obama, but not for reasons that are necessarily good for the US.

I don't have much evidence to support the thoughts I've expressed above, but just based on typical human psychology I'd expect they are largely true.

Yeah, but what about the bias?

I agree that there certainly was just a tad too much "hope" being floated around with Obama, not to mention more than a little arrogance.

Thanks for your opinion on the matter.

stevieray
04-23-2013, 12:37 PM
You're just angry because your prayers for Obama's loss in the second term were completely ignored. Pray harder....that's all you've got?

LMAO

Donger
04-23-2013, 12:39 PM
And, yes, Obama does blame Bush.

LMAO

Zogby said that he was surprised that favorable attitudes toward the United States had actually dropped to levels below where they were in 2008. By the same token, he said, Obama has been burdened by the fact that “every one of the issues that he’s inherited has been more difficult than he or anyone else expected.”

Obama, for instance, has had to make difficult decisions on Iraq and on Afghanistan, and try to set down new markers for progress among Israelis and Palestinians.

“He didn’t get a magic wand when he took the oath office,” Zogby said. “They handed him a shovel to get out of a deep hole.”

Amnorix
04-23-2013, 12:44 PM
And, yes, Obama does blame Bush.



That's fairly possible, actually. If you have two guys in, say, Jordan, and one hates the US for invading Iraq, but the other one supported it, and now Obama leaves Iraq, is the one that hated teh US for invading now going to like us? No. Is the one that supported us and our invasion now disappointed or mad or whatever that we left and things in Iraq are unstable? Yep, very possible.

Not hard to see.

Bottom line is that the US reputation in the ME is going to suck for many, many years to come. Part of it is just the price of being the world's last superpower. We get blamed for everything in many instances. Damned if we do, damned if we don't, as I noted before.

Amnorix
04-23-2013, 12:45 PM
Yeah, but what about the bias?

Not sure exactly what you're referring to here.

I agree that there certainly was just a tad too much "hope" being floated around with Obama, not to mention more than a little arrogance.

The Obama arrogance was/is alot less damaging than Bush's, IMHO, who was so completely off-base abotu the consequences of invading Iraq, at tremendous cost to American blood and treasure.

ChiefaRoo
04-23-2013, 12:45 PM
That's fairly possible, actually. If you have two guys in, say, Jordan, and one hates the US for invading Iraq, but the other one supported it, and now Obama leaves Iraq, is the one that hated teh US for invading now going to like us? No. Is the one that supported us and our invasion now disappointed or mad or whatever that we left and things in Iraq are unstable? Yep, very possible.

Not hard to see.

Bottom line is that the US reputation in the ME is going to suck for many, many years to come. Part of it is just the price of being the world's last superpower. We get blamed for everything in many instances. Damned if we do, damned if we don't, as I noted before.

Wicked Lawjic their chowda.

Amnorix
04-23-2013, 12:45 PM
Oh look, everybody. Barry's toelicker is here.

Voted for Romney in '12, so get your facts straight for once.

Donger
04-23-2013, 12:47 PM
That's fairly possible, actually. If you have two guys in, say, Jordan, and one hates the US for invading Iraq, but the other one supported it, and now Obama leaves Iraq, is the one that hated teh US for invading now going to like us? No. Is the one that supported us and our invasion now disappointed or mad or whatever that we left and things in Iraq are unstable? Yep, very possible.

Not hard to see.

Bottom line is that the US reputation in the ME is going to suck for many, many years to come. Part of it is just the price of being the world's last superpower. We get blamed for everything in many instances. Damned if we do, damned if we don't, as I noted before.

It isn't going to change unless we stop supporting Israel.

cosmo20002
04-23-2013, 12:47 PM
I'd like to hear from the Obama supporters on this. Did you really think that Obama, being who and what you thought he was, was really going to change the minds of "the Muslims who hate America"?


No. I don't know anyone who did think that.

What's funny is that the writer of the column is using those polls of decreased Muslim support to attack Obama. Had the polls of Muslims showed increased support, then that would be used to attack him--as 'proof' of his appeasment of them. He's accused of appeasing them anyway.

Donger
04-23-2013, 12:51 PM
Not sure exactly what you're referring to here.

I was making fun of Fish and his strange hangup about bias.

The Obama arrogance was/is alot less damaging than Bush's, IMHO, who was so completely off-base abotu the consequences of invading Iraq, at tremendous cost to American blood and treasure.

No argument from me on the decision to invade Iraq, as you know.

Donger
04-23-2013, 12:54 PM
No. I don't know anyone who did think that.

You don't think that was Obama's goal, particularly with the New Beginning speech in Cairo?

dirk digler
04-23-2013, 01:08 PM
They really don't hate us more than ever it really hasn't changed that much since 2006-2007. The favorability ratings have stayed pretty much flat

http://www.pewglobal.org/files/2012/06/USIMAGE0039.png

Comrade Crapski
04-23-2013, 01:10 PM
Voted for Romney in '12, so get your facts straight for once.

I wouldn't piss on you if you were on fire.

Fairplay
04-23-2013, 01:12 PM
They really don't hate us more than ever it really hasn't changed that much since 2006-2007.






We want them to like us, send them more money Obama.

KChiefer
04-23-2013, 01:15 PM
I'm wondering what she thinks would be achieved if Obama did ramp up his rhetoric?.?

And as far as her saying it was Obama that used Bush's rhetoric for political gain, sure he probably did, but you need to look no further than Bush's performance in the Muslim vote from '00 to '04 to see why Obama wouldn't want to adopt the same stance as the GOP in regards to discussing Muslims. Bush's plummet in the Muslim vote had nothing to do with Obama, so I'd like to hear how she explains it while trying to act like Bush was a Muslim lover.

And I gotta laugh at this

Terror attacks have been attempted at the same rate as during the Bush years (and have been thwarted slightly less successfully).

Yes, there have been more successful attacks but she's totally omitting their severity with that statement.

I'm also surprised she doesn't bring up drone strikes, which is a great argument for why there is so much anti-American sentiment.

Lastly, it's my belief that terrorism will never end until we become an isolationist non-superpower, and that won't happen any time soon. Even if we did become that, there will always be someone that feels slighted and is backed by an extremist ideology. So, in saying that, I can agree with her that the president's rhetoric has not changed much.

cosmo20002
04-23-2013, 01:16 PM
You don't think that was Obama's goal, particularly with the New Beginning speech in Cairo?

Do I think Obama's goal was to "change the minds of the Muslims who hate America"? No, I don't. The haters aren't going to be swayed by a speech, and likely don't care much who the president is. As long as the US supports Israel and is going after terrorists in Afghanistan, Yemen, Pakistan, Libya, etc., they gonna hate.

Donger
04-23-2013, 01:32 PM
Do I think Obama's goal was to "change the minds of the Muslims who hate America"? No, I don't. The haters aren't going to be swayed by a speech, and likely don't care much who the president is. As long as the US supports Israel and is going after terrorists in Afghanistan, Yemen, Pakistan, Libya, etc., they gonna hate.

So you think he was going after just the "we don't like America" Muslims?

listopencil
04-23-2013, 01:42 PM
http://news.yahoo.com/muslim-world-hates-u-more-ever-070000727.html

His administration later dubbed Hassan's attack "workplace violence" rather than jihadism or terrorism.



I understand why the incident can be considered to be both an act of domestic terrorism and an eruption of workplace violence. It has qualities in common with both. I didn't go dig up the letter that this point references. I dug up a link from Faux Noise, because I count on them to the most biased media source against the current administration, and expect them to find and distort the most damning "evidence" available. So this is what I found from them, an excerpt from a letter from the Department of Defense:

"The documents attached illustrate how the Department is dealing with the threat of violent Islamist extremism in the context of a broader threat of workplace violence," read the letter, which was obtained by Fox News.
Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/12/06/military-growing-terrorist-target-lawmakers-warn/#ixzz2RJSgVO59


And then I looked up the speach that he gave at Fort Hood:



Following is an advance transcript of President Obama's remarks at the Fort Hood memorial service, as provided by the White House.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=120283650&ft=1&f=1001

We come together filled with sorrow for the thirteen Americans that we have lost; with gratitude for the lives that they led; and with a determination to honor them through the work we carry on.

This is a time of war. And yet these Americans did not die on a foreign field of battle. They were killed here, on American soil, in the heart of this great American community. It is this fact that makes the tragedy even more painful and even more incomprehensible.

For those families who have lost a loved one, no words can fill the void that has been left. We knew these men and women as soldiers and caregivers. You knew them as mothers and fathers; sons and daughters; sisters and brothers.

But here is what you must also know: your loved ones endure through the life of our nation. Their memory will be honored in the places they lived and by the people they touched. Their life's work is our security, and the freedom that we too often take for granted. Every evening that the sun sets on a tranquil town; every dawn that a flag is unfurled; every moment that an American enjoys life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness that is their legacy.

Neither this country nor the values that we were founded upon could exist without men and women like these thirteen Americans. And that is why we must pay tribute to their stories.

Chief Warrant Officer Michael Cahill had served in the National Guard and worked as a physician's assistant for decades. A husband and father of three, he was so committed to his patients that on the day he died, he was back at work just weeks after having a heart attack.

Major Libardo Eduardo Caraveo spoke little English when he came to America as a teenager. But he put himself through college, earned a PhD, and was helping combat units cope with the stress of deployment. He is survived by his wife, sons and step-daughters.

Staff Sergeant Justin DeCrow joined the Army right after high school, married his high school sweetheart, and had served as a light wheeled mechanic and Satellite Communications Operator. He was known as an optimist, a mentor, and a loving husband and father.

After retiring from the Army as a Major, John Gaffaney cared for society's most vulnerable during two decades as a psychiatric nurse. He spent three years trying to return to active duty in this time of war, and he was preparing to deploy to Iraq as a Captain. He leaves behind a wife and son.

Specialist Frederick Greene was a Tennessean who wanted to join the Army for a long time, and did so in 2008 with the support of his family. As a combat engineer he was a natural leader, and he is survived by his wife and two daughters.

Specialist Jason Hunt was also recently married, with three children to care for. He joined the Army after high school. He did a tour in Iraq, and it was there that he re-enlisted for six more years on his 21st birthday so that he could continue to serve.

Staff Sergeant Amy Krueger was an athlete in high school, joined the Army shortly after 9/11, and had since returned home to speak to students about her experience. When her mother told her she couldn't take on Osama bin Laden by herself, Amy replied: "Watch me."

Private First Class Aaron Nemelka was an Eagle Scout who just recently signed up to do one of the most dangerous jobs in the service diffuse bombs so that he could help save lives. He was proudly carrying on a tradition of military service that runs deep within his family.

Private First Class Michael Pearson loved his family and loved his music, and his goal was to be a music teacher. He excelled at playing the guitar, and could create songs on the spot and show others how to play. He joined the military a year ago, and was preparing for his first deployment.

Captain Russell Seager worked as a nurse for the VA, helping veterans with Post-Traumatic Stress. He had great respect for the military, and signed up to serve so that he could help soldiers cope with the stress of combat and return to civilian life. He leaves behind a wife and son.

Private Francheska Velez, the daughter of a father from Colombia and a Puerto Rican mother, had recently served in Korea and in Iraq, and was pursuing a career in the Army. When she was killed, she was pregnant with her first child, and was excited about becoming a mother.

Lieutenant Colonel Juanita Warman was the daughter and granddaughter of Army veterans. She was a single mother who put herself through college and graduate school, and served as a nurse practitioner while raising her two daughters. She also left behind a loving husband.

Private First Class Kham Xiong came to America from Thailand as a small child. He was a husband and father who followed his brother into the military because his family had a strong history of service. He was preparing for his first deployment to Afghanistan.

These men and women came from all parts of the country. Some had long careers in the military. Some had signed up to serve in the shadow of 9/11. Some had known intense combat in Iraq and Afghanistan, and some cared for those did. Their lives speak to the strength, the dignity and the decency of those who serve, and that is how they will be remembered.

That same spirit is embodied in the community here at Fort Hood, and in the many wounded who are still recovering. In those terrible minutes during the attack, soldiers made makeshift tourniquets out of their clothes. They braved gunfire to reach the wounded, and ferried them to safety in the backs of cars and a pick-up truck.

One young soldier, Amber Bahr, was so intent on helping others that she did not realize for some time that she, herself, had been shot in the back. Two police officers Mark Todd and Kim Munley saved countless lives by risking their own. One medic Francisco de la Serna treated both Officer Munley and the gunman who shot her.

It may be hard to comprehend the twisted logic that led to this tragedy. But this much we do know no faith justifies these murderous and craven acts; no just and loving God looks upon them with favor. And for what he has done, we know that the killer will be met with justice in this world, and the next.

These are trying times for our country. In Afghanistan and Pakistan, the same extremists who killed nearly 3,000 Americans continue to endanger America, our allies, and innocent Afghans and Pakistanis. In Iraq, we are working to bring a war to a successful end, as there are still those who would deny the Iraqi people the future that Americans and Iraqis have sacrificed so much for.

As we face these challenges, the stories of those at Fort Hood reaffirm the core values that we are fighting for, and the strength that we must draw upon. Theirs are tales of American men and women answering an extraordinary call the call to serve their comrades, their communities, and their country. In an age of selfishness, they embody responsibility. In an era of division, they call upon us to come together. In a time of cynicism, they remind us of who we are as Americans.

We are a nation that endures because of the courage of those who defend it. We saw that valor in those who braved bullets here at Fort Hood, just as surely as we see it in those who signed up knowing that they would serve in harm's way.

We are a nation of laws whose commitment to justice is so enduring that we would treat a gunman and give him due process, just as surely as we will see that he pays for his crimes.

We are a nation that guarantees the freedom to worship as one chooses. And instead of claiming God for our side, we remember Lincoln's words, and always pray to be on the side of God.

We are a nation that is dedicated to the proposition that all men and women are created equal. We live that truth within our military, and see it in the varied backgrounds of those we lay to rest today. We defend that truth at home and abroad, and we know that Americans will always be found on the side of liberty and equality. That is who we are as a people.

Tomorrow is Veterans Day. It is a chance to pause, and to pay tribute for students to learn of the struggles that preceded them; for families to honor the service of parents and grandparents; for citizens to reflect upon the sacrifices that have been made in pursuit of a more perfect union.

For history is filled with heroes. You may remember the stories of a grandfather who marched across Europe; an uncle who fought in Vietnam; a sister who served in the Gulf. But as we honor the many generations who have served, I think all of us every single American must acknowledge that this generation has more than proved itself the equal of those who have come before.

We need not look to the past for greatness, because it is before our very eyes.

This generation of soldiers, sailors, airmen, Marines and Coast Guardsmen have volunteered in a time of certain danger. They are part of the finest fighting force that the world has ever known. They have served tour after tour of duty in distant, different and difficult places. They have stood watch in blinding deserts and on snowy mountains. They have extended the opportunity of self-government to peoples that have suffered tyranny and war. They are man and woman; white, black, and brown; of all faiths and stations all Americans, serving together to protect our people, while giving others half a world away the chance to lead a better life.

In today's wars, there is not always a simple ceremony that signals our troops' success no surrender papers to be signed, or capital to be claimed. But the measure of their impact is no less great in a world of threats that no know borders, it will be marked in the safety of our cities and towns, and the security and opportunity that is extended abroad. And it will serve as testimony to the character of those who serve, and the example that you set for America and for the world.

Here, at Fort Hood, we pay tribute to thirteen men and women who were not able to escape the horror of war, even in the comfort of home. Later today, at Fort Lewis, one community will gather to remember so many in one Stryker Brigade who have fallen in Afghanistan.

Long after they are laid to rest when the fighting has finished, and our nation has endured; when today's servicemen and women are veterans, and their children have grown it will be said of this generation that they believed under the most trying of tests; that they persevered not just when it was easy, but when it was hard; and that they paid the price and bore the burden to secure this nation, and stood up for the values that live in the hearts of all free peoples.

So we say goodbye to those who now belong to eternity. We press ahead in pursuit of the peace that guided their service. May God bless the memory of those we lost. And may God bless the United States of America.

mlyonsd
04-23-2013, 01:43 PM
The problem for Obama clearly here is that Bush set the bar too high in the Muslim world so the expectations of realizing a higher approval rating were out of reach in the first place.

King_Chief_Fan
04-23-2013, 01:46 PM
"When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice:
but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn."
Proverbs 29:2

listopencil
04-23-2013, 01:46 PM
As far as polls go that reflect how well we are accepted in countries that I consider to be strongly opposed to our way of life, I could not give one rat's ass nor one flying fuck what they think about us. I don't give a shit if they hated Bush, and I don't give a shit if they hate Obama. I think Amnorix made some valid points about the psychology of the people living in those countries we are involved in.

Amnorix
04-23-2013, 01:49 PM
I wouldn't piss on you if you were on fire.


Well, then I won't immolate myself. Thanks for giving me a heads up.

King_Chief_Fan
04-23-2013, 01:58 PM
As far as polls go that reflect how well we are accepted in countries that I consider to be strongly opposed to our way of life, I could not give one rat's ass nor one flying **** what they think about us. I don't give a shit if they hated Bush, and I don't give a shit if they hate Obama. I think Amnorix made some valid points about the psychology of the people living in those countries we are involved in.

good comments....

cosmo20002
04-23-2013, 02:08 PM
So you think he was going after just the "we don't like America" Muslims?

I think he was "going after" two main audiences--open-minded folks willing to see his appearance and speech as a good gesture, and the US audience--to show the new president on the world stage.

Comrade Crapski
05-03-2013, 12:37 PM
The Libyan militia group that the State Department hired to defend its embattled diplomatic mission in Benghazi had clear al-Qaida sympathies, and had prominently displayed the al-Qaida flag on a Facebook page for some months before the deadly attack. That organization, the February 17th Martyrs Brigade, was paid by the U.S. government to provide security at the U.S. diplomatic mission in Benghazi, Libya. But there is no indication the Martyrs Brigade fulfilled its commitment to defend the mission on Sept. 11, when it came under attack.

http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/benghazi-consulate-protected-alqaida/2013/05/02/id/502565?s=al&promo_code=135B1-1

Good job, Bath-house Barry! :thumb:

Direckshun
05-03-2013, 02:39 PM
Well, haters are gonna hate, so no, that wasn't realistic. I think just like in any other situation there is a vast swath of middle of the roaders and undecideds who I think many hoped might be swayed by a dramatically different voice in the White House. That isn't why I voted for Obama (in '08), but it certainly couldn't hurt.

I'd like more insight as to the reasons behind this fall. I suspect that many in the area and its neighbors are somewhat irrationally holding Syria against us. Seemingly, we're often damned if we do and damned if we don't. Leaving Iraq and Afghanistan is also something that needed to happen, but as security has degraded I'm sure that gets held against us too. They hate us when they're there, but then when they leave and things suck worse, they blame us for abandoning them. Pakistanis probably had more reason to like Bush than Obama, but not for reasons that are necessarily good for the US.

I don't have much evidence to support the thoughts I've expressed above, but just based on typical human psychology I'd expect they are largely true.

I think this is a fair reading of the situation.

patteeu
05-03-2013, 04:18 PM
We didn't have to leave either Iraq or Afghanistan. The Obama administration should be judged on it's decision to retreat from the area and right now it's not looking good for them.

BucEyedPea
05-03-2013, 04:19 PM
We didn't have to leave either Iraq or Afghanistan. The Obama administration should be judged on it's decision to retreat from the area and right now it's not looking good for them.

You do know the Boston Bombers said they did what they did because of Iraq and Afghanistan right?

That doesn't sound like leaving those places, which we haven't, has anything to do with anything.

patteeu
05-03-2013, 04:22 PM
You do know the Boston Bombers said they did what they did because of Iraq and Afghanistan right?

That doesn't sound like leaving those places, which we haven't, has anything to do with anything.

I don't think we should abandon our hard won progress in Iraq to appease would be terrorist radicals in our midst.

HonestChieffan
05-03-2013, 04:29 PM
Looks to me like Obama will supply arms to one side, whomever they are, and stay in the shadows as long as its muslims killing muslims. If the tide changes, he will equip the other side. We wont send troops. Just bullets

Hate to say it but seems like a viable option.

BucEyedPea
05-03-2013, 04:39 PM
I don't think we should abandon our hard won progress in Iraq to appease would be terrorist radicals in our midst.

What progress?

Apparently, it's been inciting radical terrorists even more. You even admit they're "in our midst." See how easy it was for a major US city to shut down by even an amateurish post adolescent terrorist.

patteeu
05-03-2013, 06:09 PM
What progress?

Apparently, it's been inciting radical terrorists even more. You even admit they're "in our midst." See how easy it was for a major US city to shut down by even an amateurish post adolescent terrorist.

Of course they're in our midst. That doesn't mean we have to go on an appeasement binge.

BucEyedPea
05-03-2013, 06:30 PM
Of course they're in our midst. That doesn't mean we have to go on an appeasement binge.

I don't think you're getting my point. Removing causes to terror is not appeasement.