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View Full Version : Religion 2nd Child of Pa. Couple Dies After Only Praying instead of Medicine


Dave Lane
04-23-2013, 10:15 AM
A Philadelphia couple ó serving 10 years' probation for the 2009 death of their toddler after they turned to prayer instead of a doctor ó has violated their probation now that another of their children has died.

Herbert and Catherine Schaible belong to a fundamentalist Christian church that believes in faith-healing.

Philadelphia Judge Benjamin Lerner said at a hearing they violated the most important condition of their probation: to seek medical care for their remaining children.

Authorities have yet to file criminal charges in the death of the 8-month-old boy last week, after he suffered with diarrhea and breathing problems for days. But charges could be filed once authorities pinpoint how the baby died.

The couple is on probation after a jury convicted them of involuntary manslaughter in 2010 in the death of their 2-year-old son, Kent, from pneumonia.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/2nd-child-pa-couple-dies-praying-19020607#.UXfF-qI3vfI

Donger
04-23-2013, 10:16 AM
Kill them.

Bump
04-23-2013, 10:40 AM
oh, this is what religion has done for us lately.

Them prayers didnt work? I guess god and jesus didn't care about those kids.

Those people need to be sterilized so they do not waste another child's life on stupid prayers.

Frazod
04-23-2013, 10:42 AM
I guess if the kid had accidently shot himself, Wickedson would have posted this.

Ebolapox
04-23-2013, 10:43 AM
eh, too many motherfuckers are alive anyway. let them kill themselves off, no skin off my hide.

Prison Bitch
04-23-2013, 10:55 AM
Should've had Dr Gosnell abort them instead.

WhawhaWhat
04-23-2013, 10:56 AM
Punishment should include sterilization.

Dave Lane
04-23-2013, 11:22 AM
Punishment should include sterilization.

Seconded.

loochy
04-23-2013, 11:26 AM
Heh there was a Family Guy about this very thing.

Radar Chief
04-23-2013, 12:17 PM
Punishment should include sterilization.

Looks like theyíre doing a pretty good job of eliminating themselves from the gene pool but if thatís the verdict I wouldnít argue.

Rain Man
04-23-2013, 01:36 PM
Prayer is apparently a placebo.

Count Zarth
04-23-2013, 01:40 PM
No this is wrong. When I was 8 I prayed to Jehovah that my dad would stop being mad at me and let me watch Thunderbirds. And I got to watch Thunderbirds.

Prayer works.

KChiefer
04-23-2013, 01:45 PM
Long-Awaited Medical Study Questions the Power of Prayer
By BENEDICT CAREY
Published: March 31, 2006

Prayers offered by strangers had no effect on the recovery of people who were undergoing heart surgery, a large and long-awaited study has found.

And patients who knew they were being prayed for had a higher rate of post-operative complications like abnormal heart rhythms, perhaps because of the expectations the prayers created, the researchers suggested.

Because it is the most scientifically rigorous investigation of whether prayer can heal illness, the study, begun almost a decade ago and involving more than 1,800 patients, has for years been the subject of speculation.

The question has been a contentious one among researchers. Proponents have argued that prayer is perhaps the most deeply human response to disease, and that it may relieve suffering by some mechanism that is not yet understood. Skeptics have contended that studying prayer is a waste of money and that it presupposes supernatural intervention, putting it by definition beyond the reach of science.

At least 10 studies of the effects of prayer have been carried out in the last six years, with mixed results. The new study was intended to overcome flaws in the earlier investigations. The report was scheduled to appear in The American Heart Journal next week, but the journal's publisher released it online yesterday.

In a hurriedly convened news conference, the study's authors, led by Dr. Herbert Benson, a cardiologist and director of the Mind/Body Medical Institute near Boston, said that the findings were not the last word on the effects of so-called intercessory prayer. But the results, they said, raised questions about how and whether patients should be told that prayers were being offered for them.

"One conclusion from this is that the role of awareness of prayer should be studied further," said Dr. Charles Bethea, a cardiologist at Integris Baptist Medical Center in Oklahoma City and a co-author of the study.

Other experts said the study underscored the question of whether prayer was an appropriate subject for scientific study.

"The problem with studying religion scientifically is that you do violence to the phenomenon by reducing it to basic elements that can be quantified, and that makes for bad science and bad religion," said Dr. Richard Sloan, a professor of behavioral medicine at Columbia and author of a forthcoming book, "Blind Faith: The Unholy Alliance of Religion and Medicine."

The study cost $2.4 million, and most of the money came from the John Templeton Foundation, which supports research into spirituality. The government has spent more than $2.3 million on prayer research since 2000.

Dean Marek, a chaplain at the Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minn., and a co-author of the report, said the study said nothing about the power of personal prayer or about prayers for family members and friends.

Working in a large medical center like Mayo, Mr. Marek said, "You hear tons of stories about the power of prayer, and I don't doubt them."

In the study, the researchers monitored 1,802 patients at six hospitals who received coronary bypass surgery, in which doctors reroute circulation around a clogged vein or artery.

The patients were broken into three groups. Two were prayed for; the third was not. Half the patients who received the prayers were told that they were being prayed for; half were told that they might or might not receive prayers.

The researchers asked the members of three congregations — St. Paul's Monastery in St. Paul; the Community of Teresian Carmelites in Worcester, Mass.; and Silent Unity, a Missouri prayer ministry near Kansas City — to deliver the prayers, using the patients' first names and the first initials of their last names.

The congregations were told that they could pray in their own ways, but they were instructed to include the phrase, "for a successful surgery with a quick, healthy recovery and no complications."

Analyzing complications in the 30 days after the operations, the researchers found no differences between those patients who were prayed for and those who were not.

In another of the study's findings, a significantly higher number of the patients who knew that they were being prayed for — 59 percent — suffered complications, compared with 51 percent of those who were uncertain. The authors left open the possibility that this was a chance finding. But they said that being aware of the strangers' prayers also may have caused some of the patients a kind of performance anxiety.

"It may have made them uncertain, wondering am I so sick they had to call in their prayer team?" Dr. Bethea said.

The study also found that more patients in the uninformed prayer group — 18 percent — suffered major complications, like heart attack or stroke, compared with 13 percent in the group that did not receive prayers. In their report, the researchers suggested that this finding might also be a result of chance.

One reason the study was so widely anticipated was that it was led by Dr. Benson, who in his work has emphasized the soothing power of personal prayer and meditation.

At least one earlier study found lower complication rates in patients who received intercessory prayers; others found no difference. A 1997 study at the University of New Mexico, involving 40 alcoholics in rehabilitation, found that the men and women who knew they were being prayed for actually fared worse.

The new study was rigorously designed to avoid problems like the ones that came up in the earlier studies. But experts said the study could not overcome perhaps the largest obstacle to prayer study: the unknown amount of prayer each person received from friends, families, and congregations around the world who pray daily for the sick and dying.

Bob Barth, the spiritual director of Silent Unity, the Missouri prayer ministry, said the findings would not affect the ministry's mission.

"A person of faith would say that this study is interesting," Mr. Barth said, "but we've been praying a long time and we've seen prayer work, we know it works, and the research on prayer and spirituality is just getting started."

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health/31pray.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

TL;DR? A study found that prayer has no discernible effect on someone's medical procedure, and in fact, telling them they are being prayed for may actually hurt their recovery.

fan4ever
04-23-2013, 02:03 PM
This family evidently believes that God should be responsible for everything they decide/do. I know Christians who are simular; that "God's taking it from here" when faced with a family crisis. I believe God can affect things that are beyond my control and influence, but I'm pretty sure he wants me involved all the rest of the time.

Dayze
04-23-2013, 02:31 PM
thoughts and prayers sent.

King_Chief_Fan
04-23-2013, 02:33 PM
This family evidently believes that God should be responsible for everything they decide/do. I know Christians who are simular; that "God's taking it from here" when faced with a family crisis. I believe God can affect things that are beyond my control and influence, but I'm pretty sure he wants me involved all the rest of the time.
YES

bowener
04-23-2013, 02:40 PM
Life in prison without parole. No solitary confinement ever. They should always be in the general prison population. God won't save them from rape.

Pitt Gorilla
04-23-2013, 03:21 PM
Prayer is apparently a placebo.LMAO

cosmo20002
04-23-2013, 03:59 PM
thoughts and prayers sent.

I think they tried that already.

rabblerouser
04-24-2013, 06:15 AM
Natural selection at work...

rabblerouser
04-24-2013, 06:15 AM
I think they tried that already.

:thumb:

:LOL:

rabblerouser
04-24-2013, 06:19 AM
Life in prison without parole. No solitary confinement ever. They should always be in the general prison population. God won't save them from rape.

but they would be forced into receiving medical care if they are placed in Gen. Pop...

Although it would be kinda ironical if they got the AIDS from some prison rape and then were refused treatment on religilous grounds.

FishingRod
04-24-2013, 07:18 AM
Old joke to follow
A man is sitting on his porch as flood waters rise. A woman floats by in a boat, asking if the man needs help. "No, thank you," says the man, "I'm trusting in the Lord." The waters rise higher, sending the man upstairs. A raft full of people floats by his second story window. "Get in," they say, "there's plenty of room." "No thanks," says the man, "I'm trusting in the Lord." The flood waters keep rising, pushing the man up to the roof. A helicopter swoops in, lowering its ladder for the man. "Thanks anyway," shouts the man, "I'm trusting in the Lord." Finally, the man is swept away in the torrent and drowns. At the gates of Heaven, the man asks God, "Why didn't you save me?" "What do you mean?'' replies God, "I sent two boats and a helicopter."

Msmith
04-24-2013, 08:24 AM
That is how I see about healing and prayer but it is just my opinion only.

I have seen Christians being healed supernaturally (by prayer) or naturally (by modern medicine). When a believer is getting sick, he/she should keep both options open. Just because you go to medicine route does not mean you are lack of faith in God. In Bible, Paul the Apostle who performed miracles and wonders, told Timothy to take some wine to address the stomach problem. Why can't Paul pray for Timothy's sickness? Why didn't God heal Timothy thru divine mean? Well, I just don't know.

Just like the joke posted above, shouldn't we open our eyes to see what available options that God provide us, rather than the option that only we want? A story in the Old Testament illustrates the human stubbornness. In the wilderness people ran out of water, God instructed Moses to command the rock to flow out the water. But Moses used his staff to strike the rock to make the water to come out. Because of his disobedience he lost his chance to enter the promised land. Insisting God to do what we want is not necessary the way to glorify Him.

Wildcat2005
04-24-2013, 08:40 AM
thoughts and prayers sent.

lol
One of the very few times you see "Darwin's Law" apply to humans

FishingRod
04-24-2013, 11:07 AM
[QUOTE=Msmith;9619805]
I have seen Christians being healed supernaturally (by prayer)QUOTE]


I realize you will be opening yourself up to lengthy explanations of why this is not the case, that God doesnít exist and so forth but, if you donít mind that, I would be interested to hear about the supernatural healing, Iím agnostic and while I find the parents foolish and ignorant not to take the modern medicine option, Iím not entirely comfortable with the government making these decisions against the parentsí wishes and overruling their religious beliefs.

Msmith
04-24-2013, 11:44 AM
There is a teenage girl in our church who has scoliosis. One day I saw that she was in wheelchair on Sunday. It turned out that she was exercising and injured her spine. She was prayed for by the speaker (who has a ministry in Peru). Next week she was walking fine. Her illness with scoliosis still remains but at least she is off the wheelchair. That just saved their family a huge load of medical cost since her mother is the sole breadwinner. It happened about two months ago.

Our pastor at the age of 65 was diagnosed with colon caner third stage. The doctor opened him up and took away a third of the intestines. Then the pastor had to go thru three grueling chemo therapy. The whole church fasted and prayed for him. He has recovered since and there is no recurrence of cancer. He is still serving in our church. He is now 78. Why didn't God heal him right off? Why God allowed him to go thru those chemo? I don't know. But I do know that because of our pastor's illness, the whole church pulled itself together.

loochy
04-24-2013, 12:02 PM
I'm of the opinion that God gave us the gift of being smart and knowing how to use things (like medicine).

Why would they reject that gift? Those people are loons.

cosmo20002
04-24-2013, 12:06 PM
That is how I see about healing and prayer but it is just my opinion only.

I have seen Christians being healed supernaturally (by prayer) or naturally (by modern medicine).



No you haven't.

warrior
04-24-2013, 12:09 PM
Kill them.


slowly

loochy
04-24-2013, 12:10 PM
slowly

i prefer quickly. the longer it is drawn out the higher the chances of escape.

cosmo20002
04-24-2013, 12:11 PM
There is a teenage girl in our church who has scoliosis. One day I saw that she was in wheelchair on Sunday. It turned out that she was exercising and injured her spine. She was prayed for by the speaker (who has a ministry in Peru). Next week she was walking fine. Her illness with scoliosis still remains but at least she is off the wheelchair. That just saved their family a huge load of medical cost since her mother is the sole breadwinner. It happened about two months ago.


So someone got hurt, and then a week later the person was better? And you attribute this to prayer? :facepalm:

Dave Lane
04-24-2013, 12:19 PM
There is a teenage girl in our church who has scoliosis. One day I saw that she was in wheelchair on Sunday. It turned out that she was exercising and injured her spine. She was prayed for by the speaker (who has a ministry in Peru). Next week she was walking fine. Her illness with scoliosis still remains but at least she is off the wheelchair. That just saved their family a huge load of medical cost since her mother is the sole breadwinner. It happened about two months ago.

Our pastor at the age of 65 was diagnosed with colon caner third stage. The doctor opened him up and took away a third of the intestines. Then the pastor had to go thru three grueling chemo therapy. The whole church fasted and prayed for him. He has recovered since and there is no recurrence of cancer. He is still serving in our church. He is now 78. Why didn't God heal him right off? Why God allowed him to go thru those chemo? I don't know. But I do know that because of our pastor's illness, the whole church pulled itself together.

Why didn't he cure her all the way? God only had time to fix the part that would heal by itself? Busy day?

cosmo20002
04-24-2013, 12:24 PM
Why didn't he cure her all the way? God only had time to fix the part that would heal by itself? Busy day?

Geez--wouldn't you think that this healing preacher would simply set up a chair, have a seat, and spend the day healing crippled children if he had the ability, through god, to do so? Guess he has other things to do.

FishingRod
04-24-2013, 02:20 PM
[QUOTE=FishingRod;9620286][QUOTE=Msmith;9619805]
QUOTE]


I realize you will be opening yourself up to lengthy explanations of why this is not the case, that God doesnít exist and so forth but,QUOTE]

Told ya. But thanks for the answer.

KChiefer
04-24-2013, 02:43 PM
So someone got hurt, and then a week later the person was better? And you attribute this to prayer? :facepalm:

ROFL

Last year, there was a guy I knew that attempted to murder his GF in Florida and left her in a coma. When she awoke, they caught him. I visited the paper's website there and it had a facebook reply section. Nearly every reply was "Thank God she awoke, and/or Thank God they got the guy." Now, I don't like disparaging someone for expressing their positive sentiments, but I couldn't help but notice that nobody was thanking the doctors and/or police in their replies.

Msmith
04-24-2013, 03:29 PM
[QUOTE=FishingRod;9620286][QUOTE=Msmith;9619805]
QUOTE]


I realize you will be opening yourself up to lengthy explanations of why this is not the case, that God doesn’t exist and so forth but,QUOTE]

Told ya. But thanks for the answer.

Since you asked, so I answered to my best ability. Regarding other people's comments, *shrug*

Dave Lane
04-24-2013, 05:46 PM
[QUOTE=FishingRod;9620286][QUOTE=Msmith;9619805]
QUOTE]


I realize you will be opening yourself up to lengthy explanations of why this is not the case, that God doesnít exist and so forth but,QUOTE]

Told ya. But thanks for the answer.

Says the guy that can't even quote a post :LOL: