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bevischief
04-26-2013, 10:44 AM
Everything Is Rigged: The Biggest Price-Fixing Scandal Ever
The Illuminati were amateurs. The second huge financial scandal of the year reveals the real international conspiracy: There's no price the big banks can't fix

By Matt Taibbi
April 25, 2013

Conspiracy theorists of the world, believers in the hidden hands of the Rothschilds and the Masons and the Illuminati, we skeptics owe you an apology. You were right. The players may be a little different, but your basic premise is correct: The world is a rigged game. We found this out in recent months, when a series of related corruption stories spilled out of the financial sector, suggesting the world's largest banks may be fixing the prices of, well, just about everything.

You may have heard of the Libor scandal, in which at least three – and perhaps as many as 16 – of the name-brand too-big-to-fail banks have been manipulating global interest rates, in the process messing around with the prices of upward of $500 trillion (that's trillion, with a "t") worth of financial instruments. When that sprawling con burst into public view last year, it was easily the biggest financial scandal in history – MIT professor Andrew Lo even said it "dwarfs by orders of magnitude any financial scam in the history of markets."

That was bad enough, but now Libor may have a twin brother. Word has leaked out that the London-based firm ICAP, the world's largest broker of interest-rate swaps, is being investigated by American authorities for behavior that sounds eerily reminiscent of the Libor mess. Regulators are looking into whether or not a small group of brokers at ICAP may have worked with up to 15 of the world's largest banks to manipulate ISDAfix, a benchmark number used around the world to calculate the prices of interest-rate swaps.

Interest-rate swaps are a tool used by big cities, major corporations and sovereign governments to manage their debt, and the scale of their use is almost unimaginably massive. It's about a $379 trillion market, meaning that any manipulation would affect a pile of assets about 100 times the size of the United States federal budget.

It should surprise no one that among the players implicated in this scheme to fix the prices of interest-rate swaps are the same megabanks – including Barclays, UBS, Bank of America, JPMorgan Chase and the Royal Bank of Scotland – that serve on the Libor panel that sets global interest rates. In fact, in recent years many of these banks have already paid multimillion-dollar settlements for anti-competitive manipulation of one form or another (in addition to Libor, some were caught up in an anti-competitive scheme, detailed in Rolling Stone last year, to rig municipal-debt service auctions). Though the jumble of financial acronyms sounds like gibberish to the layperson, the fact that there may now be price-fixing scandals involving both Libor and ISDAfix suggests a single, giant mushrooming conspiracy of collusion and price-fixing hovering under the ostensibly competitive veneer of Wall Street culture.

The Scam Wall Street Learned From the Mafia

Why? Because Libor already affects the prices of interest-rate swaps, making this a manipulation-on-manipulation situation. If the allegations prove to be right, that will mean that swap customers have been paying for two different layers of price-fixing corruption. If you can imagine paying 20 bucks for a crappy PB&J because some evil cabal of agribusiness companies colluded to fix the prices of both peanuts and peanut butter, you come close to grasping the lunacy of financial markets where both interest rates and interest-rate swaps are being manipulated at the same time, often by the same banks.

"It's a double conspiracy," says an amazed Michael Greenberger, a former director of the trading and markets division at the Commodity Futures Trading Commission and now a professor at the University of Maryland. "It's the height of criminality."

The bad news didn't stop with swaps and interest rates. In March, it also came out that two regulators – the CFTC here in the U.S. and the Madrid-based International Organization of Securities Commissions – were spurred by the Libor revelations to investigate the possibility of collusive manipulation of gold and silver prices. "Given the clubby manipulation efforts we saw in Libor benchmarks, I assume other benchmarks – many other benchmarks – are legit areas of inquiry," CFTC Commissioner Bart Chilton said.

But the biggest shock came out of a federal courtroom at the end of March – though if you follow these matters closely, it may not have been so shocking at all – when a landmark class-action civil lawsuit against the banks for Libor-related offenses was dismissed. In that case, a federal judge accepted the banker-defendants' incredible argument: If cities and towns and other investors lost money because of Libor manipulation, that was their own fault for ever thinking the banks were competing in the first place.

"A farce," was one antitrust lawyer's response to the eyebrow-raising dismissal.

"Incredible," says Sylvia Sokol, an attorney for Constantine Cannon, a firm that specializes in antitrust cases.

All of these stories collectively pointed to the same thing: These banks, which already possess enormous power just by virtue of their financial holdings – in the United States, the top six banks, many of them the same names you see on the Libor and ISDAfix panels, own assets equivalent to 60 percent of the nation's GDP – are beginning to realize the awesome possibilities for increased profit and political might that would come with colluding instead of competing. Moreover, it's increasingly clear that both the criminal justice system and the civil courts may be impotent to stop them, even when they do get caught working together to game the system.

If true, that would leave us living in an era of undisguised, real-world conspiracy, in which the prices of currencies, commodities like gold and silver, even interest rates and the value of money itself, can be and may already have been dictated from above. And those who are doing it can get away with it. Forget the Illuminati – this is the real thing, and it's no secret. You can stare right at it, anytime you want.

Read more: http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/everything-is-rigged-the-biggest-financial-scandal-yet-20130425#ixzz2RaJQXsAx
More at the link.

bevischief
04-26-2013, 10:46 AM
The banks found a loophole, a basic flaw in the machine. Across the financial system, there are places where prices or official indices are set based upon unverified data sent in by private banks and financial companies. In other words, we gave the players with incentives to game the system institutional roles in the economic infrastructure.

Libor, which measures the prices banks charge one another to borrow money, is a perfect example, not only of this basic flaw in the price-setting system but of the weakness in the regulatory framework supposedly policing it. Couple a voluntary reporting scheme with too-big-to-fail status and a revolving-door legal system, and what you get is unstoppable corruption.

Every morning, 18 of the world's biggest banks submit data to an office in London about how much they believe they would have to pay to borrow from other banks. The 18 banks together are called the "Libor panel," and when all of these data from all 18 panelist banks are collected, the numbers are averaged out. What emerges, every morning at 11:30 London time, are the daily Libor figures.

Banks submit numbers about borrowing in 10 different currencies across 15 different time periods, e.g., loans as short as one day and as long as one year. This mountain of bank-submitted data is used every day to create benchmark rates that affect the prices of everything from credit cards to mortgages to currencies to commercial loans (both short- and long-term) to swaps.

Gangster Bankers Broke Every Law in the Book

Dating back perhaps as far as the early Nineties, traders and others inside these banks were sometimes calling up the company geeks responsible for submitting the daily Libor numbers (the "Libor submitters") and asking them to fudge the numbers. Usually, the gimmick was the trader had made a bet on something – a swap, currencies, something – and he wanted the Libor submitter to make the numbers look lower (or, occasionally, higher) to help his bet pay off.

Famously, one Barclays trader monkeyed with Libor submissions in exchange for a bottle of Bollinger champagne, but in some cases, it was even lamer than that. This is from an exchange between a trader and a Libor submitter at the Royal Bank of Scotland:

SWISS FRANC TRADER: can u put 6m swiss libor in low pls?...
PRIMARY SUBMITTER: Whats it worth
SWSISS FRANC TRADER: ive got some sushi rolls from yesterday?...
PRIMARY SUBMITTER: ok low 6m, just for u
SWISS FRANC TRADER: wooooooohooooooo. . . thatd be awesome

Screwing around with world interest rates that affect billions of people in exchange for day-old sushi – it's hard to imagine an image that better captures the moral insanity of the modern financial-services sector.

Hundreds of similar exchanges were uncovered when regulators like Britain's Financial Services Authority and the U.S. Justice Department started burrowing into the befouled entrails of Libor. The documentary evidence of anti-competitive manipulation they found was so overwhelming that, to read it, one almost becomes embarrassed for the banks. "It's just amazing how Libor fixing can make you that much money," chirped one yen trader. "Pure manipulation going on," wrote another.

Yet despite so many instances of at least attempted manipulation, the banks mostly skated. Barclays got off with a relatively minor fine in the $450 million range, UBS was stuck with $1.5 billion in penalties, and RBS was forced to give up $615 million. Apart from a few low-level flunkies overseas, no individual involved in this scam that impacted nearly everyone in the industrialized world was even threatened with criminal prosecution.

Two of America's top law-enforcement officials, Attorney General Eric Holder and former Justice Department Criminal Division chief Lanny Breuer, confessed that it's dangerous to prosecute offending banks because they are simply too big. Making arrests, they say, might lead to "collateral consequences" in the economy.

The relatively small sums of money extracted in these settlements did not go toward reparations for the cities, towns and other victims who lost money due to Libor manipulation. Instead, it flowed mindlessly into government coffers. So it was left to towns and cities like Baltimore (which lost money due to fluctuations in their municipal investments caused by Libor movements), pensions like the New Britain, Connecticut, Firefighters' and Police Benefit Fund, and other foundations – and even individuals (billionaire real-estate developer Sheldon Solow, who filed his own suit in February, claims that his company lost $450 million because of Libor manipulation) – to sue the banks for damages.

One of the biggest Libor suits was proceeding on schedule when, early in March, an army of superstar lawyers working on behalf of the banks descended upon federal judge Naomi Buchwald in the Southern District of New York to argue an extraordinary motion to dismiss. The banks' legal dream team drew from heavyweight Beltway-connected firms like Boies Schiller (you remember David Boies represented Al Gore), Davis Polk (home of top ex-regulators like former SEC enforcement chief Linda Thomsen) and Covington & Burling, the onetime private-practice home of both Holder and Breuer.

The presence of Covington & Burling in the suit – representing, of all companies, Citigroup, the former employer of current Treasury Secretary Jack Lew – was particularly galling. Right as the Libor case was being dismissed, the firm had hired none other than Lanny Breuer, the same Lanny Breuer who, just a few months before, was the assistant attorney general who had balked at criminally prosecuting UBS over Libor because, he said, "Our goal here is not to destroy a major financial institution."

In any case, this all-star squad of white-shoe lawyers came before Buchwald and made the mother of all audacious arguments. Robert Wise of Davis Polk, representing Bank of America, told Buchwald that the banks could not possibly be guilty of anti- competitive collusion because nobody ever said that the creation of Libor was competitive. "It is essential to our argument that this is not a competitive process," he said. "The banks do not compete with one another in the submission of Libor."

Read more: http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/everything-is-rigged-the-biggest-financial-scandal-yet-20130425page=2#ixzz2RaK8oJ2f

WhawhaWhat
04-26-2013, 10:48 AM
Interested but tl;dr. Cliff notes please.

bevischief
04-26-2013, 10:48 AM
If you squint incredibly hard and look at the issue through a mirror, maybe while standing on your head, you can sort of see what Wise is saying. In a very theoretical, technical sense, the actual process by which banks submit Libor data – 18 geeks sending numbers to the British Bankers' Association offices in London once every morning – is not competitive per se.

But these numbers are supposed to reflect interbank-loan prices derived in a real, competitive market. Saying the Libor submission process is not competitive is sort of like pointing out that bank robbers obeyed the speed limit on the way to the heist. It's the silliest kind of legal sophistry.

But Wise eventually outdid even that argument, essentially saying that while the banks may have lied to or cheated their customers, they weren't guilty of the particular crime of antitrust collusion. This is like the old joke about the lawyer who gets up in court and claims his client had to be innocent, because his client was committing a crime in a different state at the time of the offense.

"The plaintiffs, I believe, are confusing a claim of being perhaps deceived," he said, "with a claim for harm to competition."

Judge Buchwald swallowed this lunatic argument whole and dismissed most of the case. Libor, she said, was a "cooperative endeavor" that was "never intended to be competitive." Her decision "does not reflect the reality of this business, where all of these banks were acting as competitors throughout the process," said the antitrust lawyer Sokol. Buchwald made this ruling despite the fact that both the U.S. and British governments had already settled with three banks for billions of dollars for improper manipulation, manipulation that these companies admitted to in their settlements.

Michael Hausfeld of Hausfeld LLP, one of the lead lawyers for the plaintiffs in this Libor suit, declined to comment specifically on the dismissal. But he did talk about the significance of the Libor case and other manipulation cases now in the pipeline.

"It's now evident that there is a ubiquitous culture among the banks to collude and cheat their customers as many times as they can in as many forms as they can conceive," he said. "And that's not just surmising. This is just based upon what they've been caught at."

Greenberger says the lack of serious consequences for the Libor scandal has only made other kinds of manipulation more inevitable. "There's no therapy like sending those who are used to wearing Gucci shoes to jail," he says. "But when the attorney general says, 'I don't want to indict people,' it's the Wild West. There's no law."

The problem is, a number of markets feature the same infrastructural weakness that failed in the Libor mess. In the case of interest-rate swaps and the ISDAfix benchmark, the system is very similar to Libor, although the investigation into these markets reportedly focuses on some different types of improprieties.

Though interest-rate swaps are not widely understood outside the finance world, the root concept actually isn't that hard. If you can imagine taking out a variable-rate mortgage and then paying a bank to make your loan payments fixed, you've got the basic idea of an interest-rate swap.

In practice, it might be a country like Greece or a regional government like Jefferson County, Alabama, that borrows money at a variable rate of interest, then later goes to a bank to "swap" that loan to a more predictable fixed rate. In its simplest form, the customer in a swap deal is usually paying a premium for the safety and security of fixed interest rates, while the firm selling the swap is usually betting that it knows more about future movements in interest rates than its customers.

Prices for interest-rate swaps are often based on ISDAfix, which, like Libor, is yet another of these privately calculated benchmarks. ISDAfix's U.S. dollar rates are published every day, at 11:30 a.m. and 3:30 p.m., after a gang of the same usual-suspect megabanks (Bank of America, RBS, Deutsche, JPMorgan Chase, Barclays, etc.) submits information about bids and offers for swaps.

And here's what we know so far: The CFTC has sent subpoenas to ICAP and to as many as 15 of those member banks, and plans to interview about a dozen ICAP employees from the company's office in Jersey City, New Jersey. Moreover, the International Swaps and Derivatives Association, or ISDA, which works together with ICAP (for U.S. dollar transactions) and Thomson Reuters to compute the ISDAfix benchmark, has hired the consulting firm Oliver Wyman to review the process by which ISDAfix is calculated. Oliver Wyman is the same company that the British Bankers' Association hired to review the Libor submission process after that scandal broke last year. The upshot of all of this is that it looks very much like ISDAfix could be Libor all over again.

"It's obviously reminiscent of the Libor manipulation issue," Darrell Duffie, a finance professor at Stanford University, told reporters. "People may have been naive that simply reporting these rates was enough to avoid manipulation."

And just like in Libor, the potential losers in an interest-rate-swap manipulation scandal would be the same sad-sack collection of cities, towns, companies and other nonbank entities that have no way of knowing if they're paying the real price for swaps or a price being manipulated by bank insiders for profit. Moreover, ISDAfix is not only used to calculate prices for interest-rate swaps, it's also used to set values for about $550 billion worth of bonds tied to commercial real estate, and also affects the payouts on some state-pension annuities.

So although it's not quite as widespread as Libor, ISDAfix is sufficiently power-jammed into the world financial infrastructure that any manipulation of the rate would be catastrophic – and a huge class of victims that could include everyone from state pensioners to big cities to wealthy investors in structured notes would have no idea they were being robbed.

"How is some municipality in Cleveland or wherever going to know if it's getting ripped off?" asks Michael Masters of Masters Capital Management, a fund manager who has long been an advocate of greater transparency in the derivatives world. "The answer is, they won't know."

Worse still, the CFTC investigation apparently isn't limited to possible manipulation of swap prices by monkeying around with ISDAfix. According to reports, the commission is also looking at whether or not employees at ICAP may have intentionally delayed publication of swap prices, which in theory could give someone (bankers, cough, cough) a chance to trade ahead of the information.

Swap prices are published when ICAP employees manually enter the data on a computer screen called "19901." Some 6,000 customers subscribe to a service that allows them to access the data appearing on the 19901 screen.

The key here is that unlike a more transparent, regulated market like the New York Stock Exchange, where the results of stock trades are computed more or less instantly and everyone in theory can immediately see the impact of trading on the prices of stocks, in the swap market the whole world is dependent upon a handful of brokers quickly and honestly entering data about trades by hand into a computer terminal.

Any delay in entering price data would provide the banks involved in the transactions with a rare opportunity to trade ahead of the information. One way to imagine it would be to picture a racetrack where a giant curtain is pulled over the track as the horses come down the stretch – and the gallery is only told two minutes later which horse actually won. Anyone on the right side of the curtain could make a lot of smart bets before the audience saw the results of the race.

Read more: http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/everything-is-rigged-the-biggest-financial-scandal-yet-20130425page=3#ixzz2RaKdoTaZ

bevischief
04-26-2013, 10:53 AM
At ICAP, the interest-rate swap desk, and the 19901 screen, were reportedly controlled by a small group of 20 or so brokers, some of whom were making millions of dollars. These brokers made so much money for themselves the unit was nicknamed "Treasure Island."

Already, there are some reports that brokers of Treasure Island did create such intentional delays. Bloomberg interviewed a former broker who claims that he watched ICAP brokers delay the reporting of swap prices. "That allows dealers to tell the brokers to delay putting trades into the system instead of in real time," Bloomberg wrote, noting the former broker had "witnessed such activity firsthand." An ICAP spokesman has no comment on the story, though the company has released a statement saying that it is "cooperating" with the CFTC's inquiry and that it "maintains policies that prohibit" the improper behavior alleged in news reports.

The idea that prices in a $379 trillion market could be dependent on a desk of about 20 guys in New Jersey should tell you a lot about the absurdity of our financial infrastructure. The whole thing, in fact, has a darkly comic element to it. "It's almost hilarious in the irony," says David Frenk, director of research for Better Markets, a financial-reform advocacy group, "that they called it ISDAfix."

After scandals involving libor and, perhaps, ISDAfix, the question that should have everyone freaked out is this: What other markets out there carry the same potential for manipulation? The answer to that question is far from reassuring, because the potential is almost everywhere. From gold to gas to swaps to interest rates, prices all over the world are dependent upon little private cabals of cigar-chomping insiders we're forced to trust.

"In all the over-the-counter markets, you don't really have pricing except by a bunch of guys getting together," Masters notes glumly.

That includes the markets for gold (where prices are set by five banks in a Libor-ish teleconferencing process that, ironically, was created in part by N M Rothschild & Sons) and silver (whose price is set by just three banks), as well as benchmark rates in numerous other commodities – jet fuel, diesel, electric power, coal, you name it. The problem in each of these markets is the same: We all have to rely upon the honesty of companies like Barclays (already caught and fined $453 million for rigging Libor) or JPMorgan Chase (paid a $228 million settlement for rigging municipal-bond auctions) or UBS (fined a collective $1.66 billion for both muni-bond rigging and Libor manipulation) to faithfully report the real prices of things like interest rates, swaps, currencies and commodities.

All of these benchmarks based on voluntary reporting are now being looked at by regulators around the world, and God knows what they'll find. The European Federation of Financial Services Users wrote in an official EU survey last summer that all of these systems are ripe targets for manipulation. "In general," it wrote, "those markets which are based on non-attested, voluntary submission of data from agents whose benefits depend on such benchmarks are especially vulnerable of market abuse and distortion."

Translation: When prices are set by companies that can profit by manipulating them, we're fucked.

"You name it," says Frenk. "Any of these benchmarks is a possibility for corruption."

The only reason this problem has not received the attention it deserves is because the scale of it is so enormous that ordinary people simply cannot see it. It's not just stealing by reaching a hand into your pocket and taking out money, but stealing in which banks can hit a few keystrokes and magically make whatever's in your pocket worth less. This is corruption at the molecular level of the economy, Space Age stealing – and it's only just coming into view.

This story is from the May 9th, 2013 issue of Rolling Stone.

Read more: http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/everything-is-rigged-the-biggest-financial-scandal-yet-20130425page=4#ixzz2RaLpxPRX

bevischief
04-26-2013, 10:56 AM
Interested but tl;dr. Cliff notes please.

I am still reading it myself.

bevischief
04-26-2013, 10:59 AM
It goes into detail how a few people control and about 20 banks control the price of just about everything and rich and powerful they have become of it. They are being investigated all the world and so far the banks keep getting the cases dismissed.

FD
04-26-2013, 11:24 AM
It goes into detail how a few people control and about 20 banks control the price of just about everything and rich and powerful they have become of it. They are being investigated all the world and so far the banks keep getting the cases dismissed.

LIBOR is just a benchmark, though. Its not "the price of everything", its not even the price of anything, its just a number against which other things can be judged.

Bump
04-26-2013, 11:45 AM
It goes into detail how a few people control and about 20 banks control the price of just about everything and rich and powerful they have become of it. They are being investigated all the world and so far the banks keep getting the cases dismissed.

duh

durtyrute
04-26-2013, 11:57 AM
Thank you

loochy
04-26-2013, 11:58 AM
Oh, it's from rolling stone....credibility gone

durtyrute
04-26-2013, 12:01 PM
What is a credible source, Yahoo news?

Donger
04-26-2013, 12:05 PM
Bilderberg.

KILLER_CLOWN
04-26-2013, 12:08 PM
This is just like a cure for cancer, you hear about it and then nothing ever comes from it.

Garcia Bronco
04-26-2013, 12:09 PM
It's implied though. Since our money is rigged and fixed....so would the other side of the equation to at least have a hope of balancing.

Bump
04-26-2013, 01:07 PM
What is a credible source, Yahoo news?

If it's not on Fox news, it's not real

/cp

loochy
04-26-2013, 01:08 PM
What is a credible source, Yahoo news?

If it's not on Fox news, it's not real

/cp

to me, rolling stone is equivalent to fox news. its just tilted in the opposite direction

the douchebags should just stick to music

Amnorix
04-26-2013, 01:13 PM
"A farce," was one antitrust lawyer's response to the eyebrow-raising dismissal.

"Incredible," says Sylvia Sokol, an attorney for Constantine Cannon, a firm that specializes in antitrust cases.



Just so you guys know, these attorneys are plaintiff class action lawyers. The same types that bring actions for McDonald's coffee being too hot and the like. They probably wanted a trillion dollars in damages and would've taken a nice 33% of that as a fee or whatever.

Not that their claims might not have some legitimacy, but frankly I'd much rather have the regulators investigate, prosecute and levy fines than have a bunch of class action lawyers dig into this trying to line their own pockets.

Not that class action lawsuits aren't very appropriate in some circumstances, of course.

Baby Lee
04-26-2013, 01:20 PM
to me, rolling stone is equivalent to fox news. its just tilted in the opposite direction

the douchebags should just stick to music

Rolling Stone generally or Taibbi specifically?

theelusiveeightrop
04-26-2013, 01:29 PM
Corruption and money together? Say it ain't so.

WhiteWhale
04-26-2013, 05:51 PM
They keep getting charged, and they keep getting dropped.

You know how much these institutions lobby our politicians?

Rollingstone is the rag that it is, but the reality is also the reality. They're destroying the global economy and getting rich doing it while people focus on celebrity gossip and low information voter issues.

Bump
04-26-2013, 06:51 PM
Corruption and money together? Say it ain't so.

Corruption isn't possible in 'murica as long as a republican is in office

/every republican follower

HonestChieffan
04-26-2013, 07:06 PM
All you poor folk suffer. The rest of us dont. But its ok. Adjust your expectations and you will be happy

BigRedChief
04-26-2013, 08:20 PM
Corruption and money together? Say it ain't so.Rich and powerful try to rig the system? No way!:doh!:

theelusiveeightrop
04-27-2013, 11:49 AM
Every senior citizen needs Life Alert.

beach tribe
04-28-2013, 02:57 AM
Those fuckers control EVERYTHING.

suzzer99
04-30-2013, 08:55 AM
Chick-Fil-A says something homophobic: 800 posts

Obama has a slip of the tongue: 500 posts

Sandy hook parents were actors: 400 posts

The financial world is actually rigged against all of us: 26 posts

This is why we're all ****ed. Special-interests from both sides of the aisle, aided by a sensationalistic news media that has no interest in real stories, keep us distracted and at loggerheads with each other over bullshit, while they rob us blind.

gblowfish
04-30-2013, 11:03 AM
Here, drink a Bud Light Select and watch Dancing With The Stars. Sleep tight, America.

Comrade Crapski
04-30-2013, 12:59 PM
Of course everything is rigged. How else can one explain a turd like Obamugabe is POTUS?

Bump
05-01-2013, 11:18 AM
Chick-Fil-A says something homophobic: 800 posts

Obama has a slip of the tongue: 500 posts

Sandy hook parents were actors: 400 posts

The financial world is actually rigged against all of us: 26 posts

This is why we're all ****ed. Special-interests from both sides of the aisle, aided by a sensationalistic news media that has no interest in real stories, keep us distracted and at loggerheads with each other over bullshit, while they rob us blind.

ya, one thing about us 'Muricans, is that we see corruption and the shit that goes on. But we just shrug it off or call someone batshit crazy.

loochy
05-01-2013, 11:22 AM
Chick-Fil-A says something homophobic: 800 posts

Obama has a slip of the tongue: 500 posts

Sandy hook parents were actors: 400 posts

The financial world is actually rigged against all of us: 26 posts

This is why we're all ****ed. Special-interests from both sides of the aisle, aided by a sensationalistic news media that has no interest in real stories, keep us distracted and at loggerheads with each other over bullshit, while they rob us blind.

No, it's because everyone already knows that they are all crooked robbers. There's really nothing to argue about so the thread doesn't take off.

KC native
05-01-2013, 11:28 AM
Oh, it's from rolling stone....credibility gone

Taibbi has actually been really good with regards to the financial crisis and associated scandals.

Prison Bitch
05-01-2013, 11:29 AM
If it's not on Fox news, it's not real

/cp


See? This is what I'm referring to in the Virginia coverage thread. This exact type of thinking by liberals.

KC native
05-01-2013, 11:31 AM
See? This is what I'm referring to in the Virginia coverage thread. This exact type of thinking by liberals.

Because Faux News is shit and has zero integrity. They are a mouthpiece for the gop.

loochy
05-01-2013, 11:31 AM
Taibbi has actually been really good with regards to the financial crisis and associated scandals.

I cannot vouch for the credibility of individual articles or authors. I was making a blanket statement of the magazine's political bias based on a random sampling of articles over time.

Baby Lee
05-01-2013, 11:34 AM
Chick-Fil-A says something homophobic: 800 posts

Obama has a slip of the tongue: 500 posts

Sandy hook parents were actors: 400 posts

The financial world is actually rigged against all of us: 26 posts

This is why we're all ****ed. Special-interests from both sides of the aisle, aided by a sensationalistic news media that has no interest in real stories, keep us distracted and at loggerheads with each other over bullshit, while they rob us blind.

I'll agree it's tragic, but it's also a function of easily understood controversies and controversies it would take an MBA and years of experience to understand. Bad things are happening in dark corners of the economy through employment of elaborate and constantly evolving schemes. It's not like we're going to sit here on CP and unravel them.

This isn't even like human rights abuses in dark corners of the world, where if we are just presented the facts, we can start to form judgments. We could be presented a Oxford English Dictionary of facts with regards to a lot of this and still say OK, what's going on?

Cut us a little slack. ;)

Prison Bitch
05-01-2013, 11:36 AM
Because Faux News is shit and has zero integrity. They are a mouthpiece for the gop.

You're a mouthpiece at the local bathhouse.

Baby Lee
05-01-2013, 11:37 AM
No, it's because everyone already knows that they are all crooked robbers. There's really nothing to argue about so the thread doesn't take off.

And while we know this, we don't understand exactly how, or what specifically separates them from honest brokers.

The God Hypothesis
05-01-2013, 02:44 PM
The problem is that no one likes to feel helpless and powerless.

So I want to change the system, where do I start? My vote is my voice right? Dems, pubs, they are essentially the same when it comes to big financials. My vote, and therefore my voice, don't mean anything. No voice = powerless.

Pass me a boulevard wheat and my remote, back to oblivion I go.

LiveSteam
05-01-2013, 02:48 PM
You're a mouthpiece at the local bathhouse.

LMAOLMAO

KC native
05-01-2013, 03:07 PM
You're a mouthpiece at the local bathhouse.

The RWNJ's hyper focus on penis and gay sexual activities is as sharp as ever. :rolleyes:

Cephalic Trauma
05-01-2013, 03:11 PM
This is just like a cure for cancer, you hear about it and then nothing ever comes from it.

Cure for cancer? Where? Better let all the researchers at top institutions know that their hard work in finding better treatments is pointless.

KC native
05-01-2013, 03:21 PM
I cannot vouch for the credibility of individual articles or authors. I was making a blanket statement of the magazine's political bias based on a random sampling of articles over time.

Taibbi is good (a little over the top sometimes but good) on the financial nonsense. I don't read anything else from Rolling Stone.

Saul Good
05-01-2013, 03:47 PM
Chick-Fil-A says something homophobic: 800 posts

Obama has a slip of the tongue: 500 posts

Sandy hook parents were actors: 400 posts

The financial world is actually rigged against all of us: 26 posts

This is why we're all ****ed. Special-interests from both sides of the aisle, aided by a sensationalistic news media that has no interest in real stories, keep us distracted and at loggerheads with each other over bullshit, while they rob us blind.

...he said while offering nothing in response to the article.

Next time, save yourself some time and just say, "somebody should do something".

planetdoc
03-15-2014, 02:03 PM
U.S. regulator sues 16 banks for rigging Libor rate (http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/14/us-fdic-libor-idUSBREA2D1KR20140314)

The Federal Deposit Insurance Corp sued 16 of the world's largest banks on Friday, accusing them of cheating dozens of other now defunct banks by manipulating the Libor interest rate.

The global financial institutions broke certain swaps contracts they had entered into with the now-closed banks, by separately colluding to rig the Libor rate to which the contracts were tied, the FDIC said.

The banks named as defendants include Bank of America Corp, Citigroup Inc, Credit Suisse Group AG, Deutsche Bank AG, HSBC Holdings PLC, JPMorgan Chase & Co, and Royal Bank of Scotland Group PLC.

Libor, which is the average rate that a panel of banks say they can borrow unsecured funds, has become a key rate globally, underpinning more than $550 trillion in financial products, from home loans to derivatives.

theelusiveeightrop
03-15-2014, 03:54 PM
Big banks conspiring? Can't be.

Dave Lane
03-15-2014, 05:58 PM
So is this why all those big bankers committed suicide / were rubbed out?

gblowfish
03-15-2014, 06:20 PM
Interested but tl;dr. Cliff notes please.

You're being fucked over by the man.

Loneiguana
03-16-2014, 08:43 AM
Chick-Fil-A says something homophobic: 800 posts

Obama has a slip of the tongue: 500 posts

Sandy hook parents were actors: 400 posts

The financial world is actually rigged against all of us: 26 posts

This is why we're all ****ed. Special-interests from both sides of the aisle, aided by a sensationalistic news media that has no interest in real stories, keep us distracted and at loggerheads with each other over bullshit, while they rob us blind.

http://silencedmajority.blogs.com/.a/6a00d834520b4b69e20168e90c2dc9970c-450wi

Loneiguana
03-16-2014, 08:44 AM
Taibbi has actually been really good with regards to the financial crisis and associated scandals.

Which is why he is being attacked.

WhiteWhale
03-16-2014, 10:40 AM
http://silencedmajority.blogs.com/.a/6a00d834520b4b69e20168e90c2dc9970c-450wi

I don't disagree with that picture at all... but if you think the other side of the isle is the savior you need your head examined. Folks with lots of education (and thus enormous debt usually) but limited real world experience are to them what the uneducated redneck is the the GOP.

Both parties play their base like fiddles.

planetdoc
03-31-2014, 11:43 AM
High-Speed Traders Rip Investors Off, Michael Lewis Says (http://www.businessweek.com/news/2014-03-30/high-frequency-traders-ripping-off-investors-michael-lewis-says)

The technological arms race among professional equity traders threatens to destabilize U.S. markets and more should be done to limit their speed, according to New York Attorney General Eric Schneiderman. Schneiderman’s inquiry threatens to disrupt a model that market regulators have permitted for years as high-speed trading and concerns about its influence have grown. Trading firms pay to place their systems in the same data centers as the exchanges, a practice known as co-location that lets them shave millionths of a second off transactions.

“The United States stock market, the most iconic market in global capitalism, is rigged,” Lewis, whose books “Liar’s Poker” and “The Big Short” highlighted Wall Street excesses, said during an interview on “60 Minutes” yesterday. “It’s crazy that it’s legal for some people to get advance news on prices and what investors are doing,” he said.

Everyone who owns equities is victimized by the practices, in which the fastest traders figure out which stocks investors plan to buy, purchase them first and then sell them back at a higher price, said Lewis. Firms using the tactics account for about half of share volume in the U.S., a statistic that shows their pervasiveness and hints at the obstacles faced by proposals to rein them in. Exchanges rely on HFTs for profits as well as liquidity.

a simple solution would be to increase the fee per transaction. High frequency trades would become cost-prohibitive.

Easy 6
03-31-2014, 11:56 AM
Meanwhile, I haven't seen a single thing about this in any news outlet... not the newspaper, not online, not tv news, nothing.

Flight 370, Ukraine, Kim Kardashian on the cover of Vogue? yep, plenty of that.

KC native
03-31-2014, 12:05 PM
Meanwhile, I haven't seen a single thing about this in any news outlet... not the newspaper, not online, not tv news, nothing.

Flight 370, Ukraine, Kim Kardashian on the cover of Vogue? yep, plenty of that.

Several financial outfits have been all over HFT for awhile. The opinions about it are mixed (really depends on the author).

HFT is garbage. Their liquidity is temporary at best (if things go south, they disappear). It is a pure skimming operation. Their success rates are impossible for legitimate market participants to achieve (one firm hasn't had a losing day in 4 years, the best traders in the world have about a 60-70% success rate).

Dallas Chief
03-31-2014, 06:57 PM
Several financial outfits have been all over HFT for awhile. The opinions about it are mixed (really depends on the author).

HFT is garbage. Their liquidity is temporary at best (if things go south, they disappear). It is a pure skimming operation. Their success rates are impossible for legitimate market participants to achieve (one firm hasn't had a losing day in 4 years, the best traders in the world have about a 60-70% success rate).

Break it down for a layperson. Does it make it OK what they are doing, even if it is temporary? I would think not, but this is not my bag, so???

planetdoc
03-31-2014, 07:25 PM
It is a pure skimming operation.

yup. that is the TL;DR.

FD
04-02-2014, 09:28 AM
Here is a good response from Felix Salmon on Lewis's version of HFT. I agree with him that HFT is probably doing more harm than good, but Lewis's sensationalist account is missing the mark in a number of ways.

Michael Lewis’s flawed new book
By Felix Salmon MARCH 31, 2014


I’m halfway through the new Michael Lewis book – the one that has been turned into not only a breathless 60 Minutes segment but also a long excerpt in the New York Times Magazine. Like all Michael Lewis books, it’s written with great clarity and fluency: you’re not going to have any trouble turning the pages. And, like all Michael Lewis books, it’s at heart a narrative about a person — in this case, Brad Katsuyama, the founder of a small new stock exchange called IEX.

The narrative is interesting enough — but so far I haven’t seen anything that would qualify as the “lighting in a bottle” he promised Boris Kachka. We were promised scoops, but so far it’s hard to see what the scoops are supposed to be. The most interesting thing I’ve discovered so far is the existence of something called “latency tables” — a way for HFT shops to work out exactly which brokers were responsible for which orders. The trick is to realize that because every brokerage is in a slightly different physical location, each house’s trades will hit the various different stock exchanges in a slightly different order. And so by looking at the time difference between a given trade showing up on different exchanges, you can (or could, at one point) in theory identify the bank behind it.

This vagueness about time is one of the weaknesses of the book: it’s hard to keep track of time, and a lot of it seems to be an exposé not of high-frequency trading as it exists today, but rather of high-frequency trading as it existed during its brief heyday circa 2008. Lewis takes pains to tell us what happened to the number of trades per day between 2006 and 2009, for instance, but doesn’t feel the need to mention what has happened since then. (It is falling, quite dramatically.) The scale of the HFT problem — and the amount of money being made by the HFT industry — is in sharp decline: there was big money to be made once upon a time, but nowadays it’s not really there anymore. Because that fact doesn’t fit Lewis’s narrative, however, I doubt I’m going to find it anywhere in his book.

Similarly, Lewis goes to great lengths to elide the distinction between small investors and big investors. As a rule, small investors are helped by HFT: they get filled immediately, at NBBO. (NBBO is National Best Bid/Offer: basically, the very best price in the market.) It’s big investors who get hurt by HFT: because they need more stock than is immediately available, the algobots can try to front-run their trades. But Lewis plays the “all investors are small investors” card: if a hedge fund is running money on behalf of a pension fund, and the pension fund is looking after the money of middle-class individuals, then, mutatis mutandis, the hedge fund is basically just the little guy. Which is how David Einhorn ended up appearing on 60 Minutes playing the part of the put-upon small investor. Ha!

Lewis is also cavalier in his declaration that intermediation has never been as profitable as it is today, in the hands of HFT shops. He does say that the entire history of Wall Street is one of scandals, “linked together trunk to tail like circus elephants”, and nearly always involving front-running of some description. And he also mentions that while you used to be able to drive a truck through the bid-offer prices on stocks, pre-decimalization, nowadays prices are much, much tighter — with the result that trading is much, much less expensive than it used to be. Given all that, it stands to reason that even if the HFT shops are making good money, they’re still making less than the big broker-dealers used to make back in the day. But that’s not a calculation Lewis seems to have any interest in.

In his introduction to the book, Lewis writes this:

The average investor has no hope of knowing, of course, even the little he needs to know. He logs onto his TD Ameritrade or E*Trade or Schwab account, enters a ticker symbol of some stock, and clicks an icon that says “Buy”: Then what? He may think he knows what happens after he presses the key on his computer keyboard, but, trust me, he does not. If he did, he’d think twice before he pressed it.

This is silly. I’ll tell you what happens when the little guy presses that key: his order doesn’t go anywhere near any stock exchange, and no HFT shop is going to front-run it. Instead, he will receive exactly the number of shares he ordered, at exactly the best price in the market at the second he pressed the button, and he will do so in less time than it takes his web browser to refresh. Buying a small number of shares through an online brokerage account is the best guarantee of not getting front-run by HFT types. And there’s no reason whatsoever for the little guy to think twice before pressing the button.

HFT is dangerous, I’d like to see less of it, and I hope that Michael Lewis will help to bring it to wider attention. But my tentative verdict on Flash Boys (I’ll write something longer once I’ve finished the book) is that it actually misses the big problem with HFT, in the service of pushing a false narrative that it’s bad for the little guy.

http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2014/03/31/michael-lewiss-flawed-new-book/

KC native
04-02-2014, 09:54 AM
Break it down for a layperson. Does it make it OK what they are doing, even if it is temporary? I would think not, but this is not my bag, so???

I missed this the other day.

HFT is basically picking up pennies by blasting fake quotes and inserting trades to push up execution prices. It works because these firms have paid money to the exchanges to co-locate their servers. They are working on a millisecond basis.

When I said they are temporary liquidity, I was referring to one plank of HFT defenders' argument. A lot of HFT apologists say that these firms provide liquidity which would make it more tolerable if true. The reality is that when the market has a sharp drop off these HFT trades disappear and are no longer providing liquidity.


If you want to get into the weeds on the details of what HFT firms actually do, then check out Nanex's work. http://www.nanex.net/FlashCrash/OngoingResearch.html

KC native
04-02-2014, 09:57 AM
Here is a good response from Felix Salmon on Lewis's version of HFT. I agree with him that HFT is probably doing more harm than good, but Lewis's sensationalist account is missing the mark in a number of ways.


http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2014/03/31/michael-lewiss-flawed-new-book/

I like Felix.

I don't like this column. Yes, the HFTs aren't making as much money as they were but that's due to increased competition.

Regardless, HFT is a skimming operation. Their liquidity is an illusion. There are huge ethical issues that I believe the exchanges have ignored in pursuit of additional revenue.

planetdoc
04-30-2014, 10:58 AM
SEC chair to Congress: 'The markets are not rigged' (http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/04/29/us-sec-highspeed-trading-idUSBREA3S0OO20140429)
U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission Chair Mary Jo White flatly rejected claims that retail investors are being fleeced by high-frequency traders who can use their speed to jump ahead with buy and sell orders that fetch better prices.

White's comments to the House Financial Services Committee mark the first time she has directly responded to allegations in Michael Lewis' new book "Flash Boys: A Wall Street Revolt" since its publication about a month ago.

In the book, Lewis claims that high-speed traders are engaged in a form of front-running, in which the firms are able to quickly identify an investor's desire to buy a stock, rush to buy it first and then sell it back at a higher price.

The book has since prompted the FBI, the SEC, the U.S. attorney general and the New York state attorney general to disclose they are investigating potential abuses by high-speed traders.

White reiterated on Tuesday that her agency's investigators are actively pursuing probes into high-speed traders and dark pools, or anonymous trading venues.

But she also sought to dispel the notion that using high-speed technologies to trade ahead of others using stock quotes disseminated on public data feeds could meet the legal definition of "unlawful insider trading."

in recent weeks, Michael Lewis' book has re-ignited a long-standing debate over the role of high-speed traders, and whether they may be getting an unfair advantage over ordinary investors.

Although staff at SEC are considering whether to launch some pilot studies to test different regulatory proposals, there are no immediate plans to issue rules to crack down on high-speed trading or trading in unlit markets.

KC native
04-30-2014, 12:32 PM
SEC chair to Congress: 'The markets are not rigged' (http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/04/29/us-sec-highspeed-trading-idUSBREA3S0OO20140429)

Technically she's pretty correct.

The markets are not rigged. HFT is not pushing prices around too much. They pick up pennies in front of large orders.

Felix's column was right in the sense that retail investors' orders never get close to the exchanges. So technically they aren't being fleeced there.

Retail investors are getting fleeced on their mutual fund holdings though, as HFT leads to worse fills for institutional investors (like mutual funds).

planetdoc
05-06-2014, 09:51 AM
Banks Sued on Claims of Fixing Price of Gold (http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2014/05/05/banks-sued-on-claims-of-fixing-price-of-gold/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=0)
Frustrated traders and offbeat activists have complained for years in whispers and in online screeds that the price of gold has been subject to collusion. On Monday, these accusations of manipulation found a more august arena for expression: the federal courts.

At a 40-minute hearing, lawyers for more than 20 plaintiffs gathered in Federal District Court in Manhattan to coordinate their linked lawsuits against the five banks that make up what is known as the London gold fix. The suits, filed by hedge funds, private citizens and public investors like the Alaska Electrical Pension Fund, contend that the banks have used their privileged positions as market makers to rig the price of gold to their benefit.

The lawsuits — the first of which was filed in March — question the integrity of the gold fix, which dates to 1919, when a handful of bankers began to meet in the wood-paneled offices of N. M. Rothschild & Sons in London. The purpose of the fix is to set a benchmark price for gold, which is subsequently used by dealers, central banks and mining firms to buy and sell the precious metal and its various derivatives.

These days, the fix takes place by phone twice a day — at 10:30 a.m. London time and again at 3 p.m. — and generally lasts 10 minutes to an hour.

According to one of the suits, “The ‘great flaw’ of the gold fixing process is that the member banks trade on the information exchanged during the call to manipulate the price of gold and gold derivatives before publication of the gold fix to the wider market.”

Each of the banks — Barclays, Scotiabank, Deutsche Bank, HSBC and Société Générale — denied, or declined to comment, on the accusations of collusion, which — at least traditionally — have been dismissed as a conspiracy theory. Nonetheless, concerns that the gold fix may be rigged have escalated of late in part because of investigations into the setting of the London interbank offered rate, or Libor, and suspicions about manipulation of global foreign exchange rates.

“A lot of conspiracy theories have turned out to be conspiracy fact,” said Kevin Maher, a former gold trader from New York, who filed the first suit against the banks. (The case is Maher v. Bank of Nova Scotia, 14-cv-01459.) “We now know that Libor was manipulated and that a bad odor is coming out of the Forex market. So why not gold?”

Mr. Maher, who started trading gold in 1993, said he filed his suit reluctantly and only after he became convinced that official regulators were unwilling or unable to investigate the fix. “I didn’t feel like there was any oversight, either from the government or from self-regulating entities,” he said in an interview last month. “A lawsuit seemed to be the only means to rectify the problem.”

Over the last few weeks, so many plaintiffs have joined Mr. Maher with copycat complaints that a hearing was held to consolidate the cases and to appoint a lead lawyer. The fourth-floor courtroom was so full of lawyers that it took nearly 15 minutes for all of them to introduce themselves. “I want to do this in an organized way to figure out who’s who,” said Valerie E. Caproni, the presiding judge. “Not,” she added, “that I’ll remember.”

The lawsuits — and there are still more being filed — center on two main aspects of the gold fix: the fact that it is unregulated and that member banks can trade gold, and gold derivatives, during the call.

“The gold fix is by its very nature not transparent and therefore vulnerable to conspiratorial and manipulative behavior,” one of the suits maintains. The suit claims: “The lack of prohibition against trading during the calls allows defendants to gain an unfair trading advantage because pricing information exchanged during the calls provides them with insight into the immediate future direction of gold and gold derivative prices.”

As proof that collusion exists, the suits point to a handful of academic studies — some of them unpublished — that describe what one of the studies calls “significant spikes in trading volume during, but not after, the fixing period, when defendants are free to share information with each other and their clients.” Because the fix is private and not monitored, it enables its participants “to coordinate with their respective trading desks,” one suit said, and “to disseminate information” about the price of gold “while the process is occurring.”

The price-setting of gold has drawn some regulatory scrutiny, particularly in Britain and Germany.

The Financial Conduct Authority of Britain began looking at other benchmark rates, including for gold and silver, as part of its investigation into the rigging of Libor, a person briefed on the matter said.

The Federal Financial Supervisory Authority of Germany, or BaFin, has acknowledged that it is looking at the trading of precious metals as part of its inquiry into potential manipulation of the currency markets.

More than 20 traders have been suspended or fired as part of internal investigations into potential manipulation of currency markets. But no suspensions have emerged related to precious metals trading.

In the United States, the Commodity Futures Trading Commission routinely reviews the prices of commodities, but has not opened a formal investigation into gold, a person close to the agency said.

Deutsche Bank has announced that it will no longer participate in the fix as of May 13, though it still remains a defendant in the consolidated cases. Judge Caproni is considering whether to split the plaintiffs into two groups — one for those that trade physical gold and another for those that trade gold futures — but her decision will not come until at least the end of May.

lcarus
05-06-2014, 10:54 AM
Chick-Fil-A says something homophobic: 800 posts

Obama has a slip of the tongue: 500 posts

Sandy hook parents were actors: 400 posts

The financial world is actually rigged against all of us: 26 posts

This is why we're all ****ed. Special-interests from both sides of the aisle, aided by a sensationalistic news media that has no interest in real stories, keep us distracted and at loggerheads with each other over bullshit, while they rob us blind.

I'm glad there's someone else who gets it

Easy 6
05-06-2014, 07:43 PM
I'm glad there's someone else who gets it

That IS most of the truth of the matter.

And as RaceCard points out... this group rounds up leftover "pennies" on deals, that group "technically" isn't fleecing investors... ugh.

I'll be the first to admit that the big money market might as well be Chinese arithmetic to me, when I invest its in tangibles... but the way I see it, and the way RaceCard explains it, its all just one giant scam designed to suit those who best know how to skirt the rules.

Damn man, is "whoever cheats best" really any kind of way to run a nation? The bank gets my checking account and that's it, until something changes, until then I need something in my possession.

planetdoc
05-06-2014, 07:54 PM
Damn man, is "whoever cheats best" really any kind of way to run a nation? The bank gets my checking account and that's it, until something changes, until then I need something in my possession.

you are losing doing that as well since the interest you get in your checking account is lower than inflation.

Essentially, holding onto your money can be just as useless if there are others who are actively devaluing it for their own interests (such as increasing the ability to export US made goods and products).

Easy 6
05-06-2014, 08:03 PM
you are losing doing that as well since the interest you get in your checking account is lower than inflation.

Essentially, holding onto your money can be just as useless if there are others who are actively devaluing it for their own interests (such as increasing the ability to export US made goods and products).

I'm buying gold and silver (mostly silver, I love it) from third parties, not Bill DeVanes joint... once in a while the prices are higher than what they should be, but I bank on this stuff going up and up, more and more people are scared to death of this banking ****house we've got going on, me among them.

The checking account is a pure minimalist function, just enough to keep it open... I don't trust our banks with, really, anything of mine.

teedubya
05-06-2014, 11:08 PM
No, it's because everyone already knows that they are all crooked robbers. There's really nothing to argue about so the thread doesn't take off.

Bullshit. Look back 10 years ago here on CP. It's taken YEARS to wake you fuckers up.

KC native
05-07-2014, 08:42 AM
I'm buying gold and silver (mostly silver, I love it) from third parties, not Bill DeVanes joint... once in a while the prices are higher than what they should be, but I bank on this stuff going up and up, more and more people are scared to death of this banking ****house we've got going on, me among them.

The checking account is a pure minimalist function, just enough to keep it open... I don't trust our banks with, really, anything of mine.

:spock: So because you're not getting interest on your checking account, you're buying something that has physical storage costs and risks?

If you know the market is rigged, why don't you get in with the people are rigging it?

planetdoc
05-07-2014, 09:18 AM
If you know the market is rigged, why don't you get in with the people are rigging it?

ethics. I would rather work with those to short the thieves than become one.

https://i.imgur.com/eo0hGXa.jpg

KC native
05-07-2014, 09:26 AM
ethics. I would rather work with those to short the thieves than become one.

Trying to jump in front of a freight train to stop it is a bad idea.

That being said, despite problems with pockets of the market, the overwhelming majority of people involved in the markets aren't thieves. It's easy to avoid the areas that you disagree with.

lcarus
05-07-2014, 09:49 AM
The RWNJ's hyper focus on penis and gay sexual activities is as sharp as ever. :rolleyes:

You know what they say about people who are extremely homophobic.

planetdoc
05-07-2014, 10:14 AM
Trying to jump in front of a freight train to stop it is a bad idea.

good point. specially a freight train with government backing.

the overwhelming majority of people involved in the markets aren't thieves.

yes, they are the institutional investors and small time investor getting fleeced by the thieves.

planetdoc
05-20-2014, 05:36 PM
EU Commission charges HSBC, JPMorgan, Credit Agricole with rigging (http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/05/20/us-eu-banks-eurorigging-idUSBREA4J08W20140520)
European Union antitrust regulators charged Europe's biggest bank HSBC, U.S. peer JPMorgan and France's Credit Agricole on Tuesday with rigging financial benchmarks linked to the euro, exposing them to potential fines.

The European Commission also said it would charge broker ICAP soon for suspected manipulation of the yen Libor financial benchmark.

U.S. and European regulators have so far handed down some $6 billion in fines to 10 banks and brokerages for rigging the London interbank offered rate (Libor) and its euro cousin Euribor while prosecutors have also charged 16 men with fraud-related offences.

"The Commission has concerns that the three banks may have taken part in a collusive scheme which aimed at distorting the normal course of pricing components for euro interest rate derivatives," the EU competition authority said.

The three banks and ICAP, which refused to settle the case in December, could face penalties of up to 10 percent of their global turnover if found guilty of breaching EU antitrust rules.

BucEyedPea
05-20-2014, 05:39 PM
Well, to be honest, the EU is corrupt too. Run by unelected technocrats, even if they might do a few honorable things.

planetdoc
05-23-2014, 03:51 PM
Barclays Fined For Manipulating Price Of Gold For A Decade; Sending "Bursts" Of Sell Orders (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-05-23/barclays-fined-manipulating-price-gold-decade-sending-bursts-sell-orders)



The FCA said Barclays had failed to “adequately manage conflicts of interest between itself and its customers as well as systems and controls failings, in relation to the gold fixing” between 2004 and 2013.

The FCA said Mr Plunkett had manipulated the market by placing, withdrawing and re-placing a large sell order for between 40,000 oz and 60,000 oz of gold.

So for those who want the real people behind the real manipulation before they all scatter into the dust, we urge you to reread "From Rothschild To Koch Industries: Meet The People Who "Fix" The Price Of Gold. (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-05-14/rothschild-koch-industries-meet-people-who-fix-price-gold)" Because the gold manipulation rabbit hole goes far, far deeper than just one single, solitary trader...