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View Full Version : Nat'l Security We're Building Tanks the US Army Doesn't Want!


gblowfish
04-28-2013, 12:29 PM
http://news.yahoo.com/army-says-no-more-tanks-115434897.html

WASHINGTON (AP) -- Built to dominate the enemy in combat, the Army's hulking Abrams tank is proving equally hard to beat in a budget battle.
Lawmakers from both parties have devoted nearly half a billion dollars in taxpayer money over the past two years to build improved versions of the 70-ton Abrams.

But senior Army officials have said repeatedly, "No thanks."

It's the inverse of the federal budget world these days, in which automatic spending cuts are leaving sought-after pet programs struggling or unpaid altogether. Republicans and Democrats for years have fought so bitterly that lawmaking in Washington ground to a near-halt.

Yet in the case of the Abrams tank, there's a bipartisan push to spend an extra $436 million on a weapon the experts explicitly say is not needed.
"If we had our choice, we would use that money in a different way," Gen. Ray Odierno, the Army's chief of staff, told The Associated Press this past week.

Why are the tank dollars still flowing? Politics.

Keeping the Abrams production line rolling protects businesses and good paying jobs in congressional districts where the tank's many suppliers are located.

If there's a home of the Abrams, it's politically important Ohio. The nation's only tank plant is in Lima. So it's no coincidence that the champions for more tanks are Rep. Jim Jordan and Sen. Rob Portman, two of Capitol's Hill most prominent deficit hawks, as well as Democratic Sen. Sherrod Brown. They said their support is rooted in protecting national security, not in pork-barrel politics.

"The one area where we are supposed to spend taxpayer money is in defense of the country," said Jordan, whose district in the northwest part of the state includes the tank plant.

The Abrams dilemma underscores the challenge that Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel faces as he seeks to purge programs that the military considers unnecessary or too expensive in order to ensure there's enough money for essential operations, training and equipment.

Hagel, a former Republican senator from Nebraska, faces a daunting task in persuading members of Congress to eliminate or scale back projects favored by constituents.

Federal budgets are always peppered with money for pet projects. What sets the Abrams example apart is the certainty of the Army's position.
Sean Kennedy, director of research for the nonpartisan Citizens Against Government Waste, said Congress should listen when one of the military services says no to more equipment.

"When an institution as risk averse as the Defense Department says they have enough tanks, we can probably believe them," Kennedy said.
Congressional backers of the Abrams upgrades view the vast network of companies, many of them small businesses, that manufacture the tanks' materials and parts as a critical asset that has to be preserved. The money, they say, is a modest investment that will keep important tooling and manufacturing skills from being lost if the Abrams line were to be shut down.

The Lima plant is a study in how federal dollars affect local communities, which in turn hold tight to the federal dollars. The facility is owned by the federal government but operated by the land systems division of General Dynamics, a major defense contractor that spent close to $11 million last year on lobbying, according to the nonpartisan Center for Responsive Politics.

The plant is Lima's fifth-largest employer with close to 700 employees, down from about 1,100 just a few years ago, according to Mayor David Berger. But the facility is still crucial to the local economy. "All of those jobs and their spending activity in the community and the company's spending probably have about a $100 million impact annually," Berger said.

Jordan, a House conservative leader who has pushed for deep reductions in federal spending, supported the automatic cuts known as the sequester that require $42 billion to be shaved from the Pentagon's budget by the end of September. The military also has to absorb a $487 billion reduction in defense spending over the next 10 years, as required by the Budget Control Act passed in 2011.

Still, said Jordan, it would be a big mistake to stop producing tanks.
"Look, (the plant) is in the 4th Congressional District and my job is to represent the 4th Congressional District, so I understand that," he said. "But the fact remains, if it was not in the best interests of the national defense for the United States of America, then you would not see me supporting it like we do."

The tanks that Congress is requiring the Army to buy aren't brand new. Earlier models are being outfitted with a sophisticated suite of electronics that gives the vehicles better microprocessors, color flat panel displays, a more capable communications system, and other improvements. The upgraded tanks cost about $7.5 million each, according to the Army.

Out of a fleet of nearly 2,400 tanks, roughly two-thirds are the improved versions, which the Army refers to with a moniker that befits their heft: the M1A2SEPv2, and service officials said they have plenty of them. "The Army is on record saying we do not require any additional M1A2s," Davis Welch, deputy director of the Army budget office, said this month.

The tank fleet, on average, is less than 3 years old. The Abrams is named after Gen. Creighton Abrams, one of the top tank commanders during World War II and a former Army chief of staff.

The Army's plan was to stop buying tanks until 2017, when production of a newly designed Abrams would begin. Orders for Abrams tanks from U.S. allies help fill the gap created by the loss of tanks for the Army, according to service officials, but congressional proponents of the program feared there would not be enough international business to keep the Abrams line going.

This pause in tank production for the U.S. would allow the Army to spend its money on research and development work for the new and improved model, said Ashley Givens, a spokeswoman for the Army's Ground Combat Systems office.

The first editions of the Abrams tank were fielded in the early 1980s. Over the decades, the Abrams supply chain has become embedded in communities across the country.

General Dynamics estimated in 2011 that there were more than 560 subcontractors throughout the country involved in the Abrams program and that they employed as many as 18,000 people. More than 40 of the companies are in Pennsylvania, according to Sen. Robert Casey, D-Pa., also a staunch backer of continued tank production.

A letter signed by 173 Democratic and Republican members of the House last year and sent to then-Defense Secretary Leon Panetta demonstrated the depth of bipartisan support for the Abrams program on Capitol Hill. They chided the Obama administration for neglecting the industrial base and proposing to terminate tank production in the United States for the first time since World War II.

Portman, who served as President George W. Bush's budget director before being elected to the Senate, said allowing the line to wither and close would create a financial mess.

"People can't sit around for three years on unemployment insurance and wait for the government to come back," Portman said. "That supply chain is going to be much more costly and much more inefficient to create if you mothball the plant."

Pete Keating, a General Dynamics spokesman, said the money from Congress is allowing for a stable base of production for the Army, which receives about four tanks a month. With the line open, Lima also can fill international orders, bringing more work to Lima and preserving American jobs, he said.

Current foreign customers are Saudi Arabia, which is getting about five tanks a month, and Egypt, which is getting four. Each country pays all of their own costs. That's a "success story during a period of economic pain," Keating said.

Still, far fewer tanks are coming out of the Lima plant than in years past. The drop-off has affected companies such as Verhoff Machine and Welding in Continental, Ohio, which makes seats and other parts for the Abrams. Ed Verhoff, the company's president, said his sales have dropped from $20 million to $7 million over the past two years. He's also had to lay off about 25 skilled employees and he expects to be issuing more pink slips in the future.

"When we start to lose this base of people, what are we going to do? Buy our tanks from China?" Verhoff said.

Steven Grundman, a defense expert at the Atlantic Council in Washington, said the difficulty of reviving defense industrial capabilities tends to be overstated.

"From the fairly insular world in which the defense industry operates, these capabilities seem to be unique and in many cases extraordinarily high art," said Grundman, a former deputy undersecretary of defense for industrial affairs and installations during the Clinton administration. "But in the greater scope of the economy, they tend not to be."

theelusiveeightrop
04-28-2013, 12:50 PM
Sad.

LiveSteam
04-28-2013, 12:52 PM
From this
http://www.canteenbooks.com/Lima-finished%20copy.JPG


http://www.railarchive.net/nyccollection/images/nyc2256.jpg

to this

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-nSMNRb5hqJg/TVssrOWekyI/AAAAAAAAACw/dxE2fvYW-uE/s1600/2994929573_62da68a89b.jpg

InChiefsHell
04-28-2013, 01:07 PM
Would this be part of the Military Industrial complex Eisenhower warned us about?

Dylan
04-28-2013, 02:17 PM
Plasan Factory, Kibbutz Sasa, Israel

Armored Vehicles, Armor Technologies, Personal Protection, Airborne Armor

American security have “Made in Israel” stamped on it.

Kibbutz Sasa in northern Galilee, home to Plasan factory, advanced armor technologies, which have saved countless American soldiers’ lives in Iraq and Afghanistan. Israel‘s Plasan factory manufactures armor which is used in the majority of the US military’s armored vehicles.

At the Plasan plant in Kibbutz Sasa, the hallways are covered with poster-size copies of thank-you notes from American GIs. One of them is signed by Brian, an Army sergeant serving in Afghanistan who wrote that the Plasan armor saved him from a bullet that would have blown off his head if it had gone through the door.

To date, there’s not been a single soldier killed by fire while in a vehicle that we built armor-protected.


http://www.plasansasa.com/

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/Oy_LMOdPRc4?feature=player_detailpage" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Defending American lives, redefining the future.
U.S.Embassy Tel Aviv

Dylan
04-28-2013, 02:50 PM
According to a statement by the US Embassy in Tel Aviv, while visiting Kibbutz Sasa, "The Ambassador saw the full range of products, from reactive armor, to purpose built vehicles, to body armor."

"It's no exaggeration to say that thousands of American service members' lives have been saved by the work and the technology that's been developed here," Shapiro noted afterwards.

Plasan has delivered more than 8,000 armor kits to US units on active duty, according to US Embassy in Tel Aviv. "Israel is a world leader in armor technology and the Ambassador expressed his gratitude for the dedication to quality expressed at Plasan," the statement read.

"Israel is a strategic asset and partner to the United States. What makes us allies is the unique combination of common values and common interests. We donít have any better partner in the Middle East, a strategically critical and unstable part of the world," Shapiro remarked at the IDC Herzliya Conference.

He went on to say, "When you look at the burgeoning economic relationship we have, particularly in the high-tech sector, if we didnít have the start-up nation in Israel, we would have to invent it Ė for the sake of our own economy.

"Virtually every major US technology company has chosen to base major research and development centers here in Israel to draw on the talent and innovation of the Israeli work force and start-up culture."

Israel News: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4184425,00.html

Israel Defense Forces (IDF) http://www.idfblog.com/

Frazod
04-28-2013, 03:58 PM
That's okay. I'm sure Napolitano and Holder can figure out something to do with them. :shake:

CrazyPhuD
04-28-2013, 05:42 PM
I'll buy a surplus one if they'll sell to me! It would make traffic WAY more bearable!

Munson
04-28-2013, 06:00 PM
I'll buy a surplus one if they'll sell to me! It would make traffic WAY more bearable!

Nobody needs a tank! LMAO

RedDread
04-28-2013, 06:07 PM
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/cDoRmT0iRic" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

HonestChieffan
04-28-2013, 07:45 PM
Tanks for posting this

Aries Walker
04-28-2013, 08:50 PM
That one video took a hard turn to the surreal when the kids in the blank-faced harlequin masks showed up.

InChiefsHell
04-29-2013, 06:50 AM
Interesting. Had no idea Israel built all the good armor...

Amnorix
04-29-2013, 08:08 AM
Congress has a long history of doing this, fwiw.

Coyote
04-29-2013, 10:09 AM
U.S. Constitution Article I, section 8. Congress. 'to raise and support Armies, but no Appropriations of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years; To provide and maintain a Navy..."
So this is Congress' responsibility. Now if you disagree with how they are doing it, and the collusion of industry, etc. fine-welcome to a piece of my world- but my oath remains to the Constituion so I don't have the luxury of picking and choosing which parts to ignore. This is why the Navy and USMC enter into long term contracts and the Army and (USAF by extension) do not- the two years of budget matter.

patteeu
04-29-2013, 11:23 AM
Would this be part of the Military Industrial complex Eisenhower warned us about?

Not really. It's more a byproduct of the political process.

patteeu
04-29-2013, 11:25 AM
Congress has a long history of doing this, fwiw.

This.

Easy 6
04-29-2013, 12:01 PM
Would this be part of the Military Industrial complex Eisenhower warned us about?

It would.

patteeu
04-29-2013, 12:24 PM
It would.

It's really more of a Congressional-Industrial complex.

InChiefsHell
04-29-2013, 12:35 PM
It's really more of a Congressional-Industrial complex.

Considering those are the dudes who declare war...or at least are supposed to be...I'd say it's 6 of one, half dozen of another...

Aries Walker
05-01-2013, 06:10 AM
And Congress pays for it, which is the whole issue. The difference between "military-industrial complex" and "Congressional-industrial complex" is negligible; it's arguing which two sides of a triangle you want to mention.

patteeu
05-01-2013, 06:19 AM
And Congress pays for it, which is the whole issue. The difference between "military-industrial complex" and "Congressional-industrial complex" is negligible; it's arguing which two sides of a triangle you want to mention.

Given that the military would rather use these resources differently, it seems wrong to implicate them in this conspiracy.

Loneiguana
05-01-2013, 07:25 AM
Given that the military would rather use these resources differently, it seems wrong to implicate them in this conspiracy.

The military industrial complex doesn't just mean the military. It factors in the vast Industrial base that supplies the military, funding by our government. The actual commanders of the military may not want these things, but the executives of the companies that make a lot of money building these things want it.

And unfortunately the line between private sector and public sector is blurring and private sector executives make a push into appointed positions in a our government, so you have people with ties to these Military industries pushing for the government to give out more money.

Also,You will find that every Congressman who advocates more Military spending has in his district some type of factory. Even a Republican will admit to Government spending through Defense creates jobs in their home district.

/The soviet union continually produced new military equipment and let the old stuff waste away just to create jobs. Wonder what happened there?

patteeu
05-01-2013, 08:19 AM
The military industrial complex doesn't just mean the military. It factors in the vast Industrial base that supplies the military, funding by our government. The actual commanders of the military may not want these things, but the executives of the companies that make a lot of money building these things want it.

And unfortunately the line between private sector and public sector is blurring and private sector executives make a push into appointed positions in a our government, so you have people with ties to these Military industries pushing for the government to give out more money.

Also,You will find that every Congressman who advocates more Military spending has in his district some type of factory. Even a Republican will admit to Government spending through Defense creates jobs in their home district.

/The soviet union continually produced new military equipment and let the old stuff waste away just to create jobs. Wonder what happened there?

I didn't say it just means the military. I said that in this case, the military isn't even involved. Congress is just as guilty here as the defense contractor executives. Moreso, IMO, since the members of Congress are supposed to be working on behalf of the country in addition to their home district/state.

BTW, I'm well aware of the way in which concern over jobs distort defense spending.

Prison Bitch
05-01-2013, 08:55 AM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/2d/Tankmcnamara.gif