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View Full Version : Economics Senate Votes To Destroy Small Business


Chocolate Hog
05-06-2013, 07:46 PM
http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=113&session=1&vote=00113

BucEyedPea
05-06-2013, 08:09 PM
Disgusting while harming all consumers. Govt greed.

Nelson will hear from me on this. Good for Rubio on Nay as well as Rand Paul.

BucEyedPea
05-06-2013, 08:13 PM
The House has its own version. They need to be contacted.

cosmo20002
05-06-2013, 08:43 PM
Senate Votes To Destroy Small Business

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=113&session=1&vote=00113

How's it destroy small business? Seems like it could be argued that lots of small businesses would like the playing field to be leveled a bit by subjecting Amazon.com and the like to the same sales tax obligations. Plus, it exempts businesses that have less than $1 million in out-of-state sales.

As a consumer, I can't say that I really like this, but I think it is difficult to argue that it is outrageous.

notorious
05-06-2013, 08:46 PM
Since they are going to level the playing field, they need to lower sales tax for non-internet based business.

With the extra sales tax revenue coming in from internet businesses, this should not be a problem.


Oh, wait, this is the ****ing government we are talking about. :facepalm:

BucEyedPea
05-06-2013, 08:47 PM
That's called getting rid of competition not leveling the playing field. This is what businesses do.

Ask the consumer if it levels anything for them. It doesn't. It just reduces their chances of getting a better price. It's no wonder the black market/underground economy is growing more than ever!

notorious
05-06-2013, 08:51 PM
That's called getting rid of competition not leveling the playing field. This is what businesses do.

Ask the consumer if it levels anything for them. It doesn't. It just reduces their chances of getting a better price. It's no wonder the black market/underground economy is growing more than ever!

I know that there are a LOT more cash transactions taking place.


Seriously, it KILLS me to have to add the extra 9.45% onto a wood floor that cost my customer 10K. The government did not do a fucking thing to earn that money, and my customers are paying taxes on money that has already been taxed! (Income)

cosmo20002
05-06-2013, 08:54 PM
That's called getting rid of competition not leveling the playing field. This is what businesses do.

Ask the consumer if it levels anything for them. It doesn't. It just reduces their chances of getting a better price. It's no wonder the black market/underground economy is growing more than ever!

Business A is subject to certain rules like collecting sales tax.
Business B is not subject to certain rules like collecting sales tax.

Why is making Business B subject to the same rules so outrageous?

Plus it appears that each state has the option of enforcing this.

Prison Bitch
05-06-2013, 08:55 PM
I know that there are a LOT more cash transactions taking place.


Seriously, it KILLS me to have to add the extra 9.45% onto a wood floor that cost my customer 10K. The government did not do a ****ing thing to earn that money, and my customers are paying taxes on money that has already been taxed! (Income)

Actually the govt isn't charging enough taxes given the massive deficits. They promise too many handouts and you gots to pay fo it all

notorious
05-06-2013, 08:56 PM
Business A is subject to certain rules like collecting sales tax.
Business B is not subject to certain rules like collecting sales tax.

Why is making Business B subject to the same rules so outrageous?

Plus it appears that each state has the option of enforcing this.

As long as they lower sales tax overall to offset the extra they will be getting I am all for it.

notorious
05-06-2013, 08:57 PM
Actually the govt isn't charging enough taxes given the massive deficits. They promise too many handouts and you gots to pay fo it all

Don't get me going. I just wrote a check for income tax that could have paid for a new Suburban last month.

cosmo20002
05-06-2013, 08:57 PM
Seriously, it KILLS me to have to add the extra 9.45% onto a wood floor that cost my customer 10K. The government did not do a ****ing thing to earn that money, and my customers are paying taxes on money that has already been taxed! (Income)

How did the floor get to the customer?

Prison Bitch
05-06-2013, 08:59 PM
Don't get me going. I just wrote a check for income tax that could have paid for a new Suburban last month.


Don't be that way. Some dude sleeping on a couch right now is depending on you to show up for work so he won't have to. Don't let him down.

notorious
05-06-2013, 08:59 PM
How did the floor get to the customer?

They don't get enough money from my State, Federal, Fuel, Property, etc. taxes?


Oh, the shipping company got it to the customer, you know, the company that pays an insane amount of tax on the fuel.

notorious
05-06-2013, 09:02 PM
Keep them coming, Cosmo. If you ever become a person that puts into the system you might get a little upset at where that money is going.

Chocolate Hog
05-06-2013, 09:06 PM
How's it destroy small business? Seems like it could be argued that lots of small businesses would like the playing field to be leveled a bit by subjecting Amazon.com and the like to the same sales tax obligations. Plus, it exempts businesses that have less than $1 million in out-of-state sales.

As a consumer, I can't say that I really like this, but I think it is difficult to argue that it is outrageous.

Small businesses would be require to collect sales taxes in all 50 states times hundred of counties times hundreds of cities. They will need to know when some states have sales tax holidays, exempt certain products, or classes of people. It is an administrative nightmare that no small business could afford to comply with.

notorious
05-06-2013, 09:06 PM
Sorry to thread jack, gentlemen.


I see nothing wrong with charging internet sales tax. I have to charge for my sales, so should the online wood floor companies.

Prison Bitch
05-06-2013, 09:10 PM
Sorry to thread jack, gentlemen.


I see nothing wrong with charging internet sales tax. I have to charge for my sales, so should the online wood floor companies.

I see the spirit of your argument. I would propose that you work to lower all taxes ESP yours rather than advocate higher taxes for your competitors. After all when a tax is implemented, it's impossible to repeal.

cosmo20002
05-06-2013, 09:12 PM
Keep them coming, Cosmo. If you ever become a person that puts into the system you might get a little upset at where that money is going.

Not sure why you have to go to bullshit stuff like that. I work, have a good job, pay my taxes, and never needed a dime of "welfare." If you are arguing for no sales tax for anyone, then that's a seperate issue.

The fact is, most places have sales tax. Given that fact, I don't see why it is outrageous for an online retailer to be subject to the same tax obligations as a non-online business.

cosmo20002
05-06-2013, 09:14 PM
Sorry to thread jack, gentlemen.


I see nothing wrong with charging internet sales tax. I have to charge for my sales, so should the online wood floor companies.

So...then what are you arguing about? You agree with me.

mnchiefsguy
05-06-2013, 09:20 PM
Small businesses would be require to collect sales taxes in all 50 states times hundred of counties times hundreds of cities. They will need to know when some states have sales tax holidays, exempt certain products, or classes of people. It is an administrative nightmare that no small business could afford to comply with.

Administrative nightmare is an understatement. Government hates small business.

cosmo20002
05-06-2013, 09:21 PM
Small businesses would be require to collect sales taxes in all 50 states times hundred of counties times hundreds of cities. They will need to know when some states have sales tax holidays, exempt certain products, or classes of people. It is an administrative nightmare that no small business could afford to comply with.

I believe they just have to submit it to the state where the buyer resides. Anyway, small businesses have already been complying with this stuff forever if they have a presence in the state. Also, online sellers with less than $1 million in sales to the relevant states are exempt.

Prison Bitch
05-06-2013, 09:22 PM
Administrative nightmare is an understatement. Government hates small business.

Reagan used to say government loves small business. It's their end goal for big businesses. :thumb:

BucEyedPea
05-06-2013, 09:30 PM
Sorry to thread jack, gentlemen.


I see nothing wrong with charging internet sales tax. I have to charge for my sales, so should the online wood floor companies.

They have to pay shipping. In order to compete they have free shipping offers.

notorious
05-06-2013, 10:06 PM
Since they are going to level the playing field, they need to lower sales tax for non-internet based business.

With the extra sales tax revenue coming in from internet businesses, this should not be a problem.


Oh, wait, this is the ****ing government we are talking about. :facepalm:

As long as they lower sales tax overall to offset the extra they will be getting I am all for it.

I see the spirit of your argument. I would propose that you work to lower all taxes ESP yours rather than advocate higher taxes for your competitors. After all when a tax is implemented, it's impossible to repeal.

Agree.

notorious
05-06-2013, 10:07 PM
Sorry to thread jack, gentlemen.


I see nothing wrong with charging internet sales tax. I have to charge for my sales, so should the online wood floor companies.


The fact is, most places have sales tax. Given that fact, I don't see why it is outrageous for an online retailer to be subject to the same tax obligations as a non-online business.

Agree, too.

notorious
05-06-2013, 10:09 PM
Does anyone think that government will decrease overall sales tax due to more revenue from internet sales tax?

ThadEugenia
05-06-2013, 10:10 PM
Don't be that way. Some dude sleeping on a couch right now is depending on you to show up for work so he won't have to. Don't let him down.

God puts fear into a man who needs a push. It's clear whose side God is on in America.

Prison Bitch
05-06-2013, 10:11 PM
Does anyone think that government will decrease overall sales tax due to more revenue from internet sales tax?

Not a chance.

Chocolate Hog
05-06-2013, 10:12 PM
Does anyone think that government will decrease overall sales tax due to more revenue from internet sales tax?

Not at all.

cosmo20002
05-06-2013, 11:01 PM
Does anyone think that government will decrease overall sales tax due to more revenue from internet sales tax?

Well, of course not. But they way they see it is that they are losing a ton of sales tax revenue that they used to receive when people had to actually go to Target or Best Buy to buy stuff. But as more of that stuff is bought online, no sales tax is collected and the state "loses" that revenue.

This is really largely motivated by Amazon since they do huge online business and only have a physical presence in a handful of states.

Prison Bitch
05-06-2013, 11:03 PM
Hey Cosmo, think they'll institute a tax on Solyndra?

cosmo20002
05-06-2013, 11:20 PM
Hey Cosmo, think they'll institute a tax on Solyndra?

I know what Solyndra is, and I guess that is a crack of some sort, but I have no idea how that is relevant or makes any sense.

I'm sure you already realize this :rolleyes:, but this the federal govt is not taking anyone's money here. It would completely be the state's option whether to seek the sales tax. As I said before, I personally would prefer not being charged sales tax if I buy something online and the store doesn't have a physical presence in my state. I just don't think it is unreasonable for sales tax to apply.

BucEyedPea
05-06-2013, 11:25 PM
Does anyone think that government will decrease overall sales tax due to more revenue from internet sales tax?

Not I.

teedubya
05-06-2013, 11:30 PM
Should have done something like this in.1995... not 2013.

Buehler445
05-06-2013, 11:45 PM
I thought this happened already? Is it just now getting into place?

AustinChief
05-07-2013, 12:06 AM
I thought this happened already? Is it just now getting into place?

It has happened some, but it was individual states suing companies like Amazon for tax revenue they felt was owed... which is why the big players like Amazon are all for this since they have made deals already.

I can see how this has justification but there is a HUGE issue. There are NOT 50 or so different taxes that a business will have to track.... there are closer to 10,000 because this will include municipalities. (from what I have heard) That would kill a small business. They have somewhat addressed this by applying the law to only businesses making $10 million or more per year but that is still quite a burden.

Here is my simple solution. REQUIRE any local govt that wants its taxes to a)transmit and receive all tax data using a Federally created "tax data format" and b)require them to accept remittance electronically. This would effectively remove the burden on a small business and allow for multiple vendors like quickbooks to seemlessly handle the process cheaply. And no business can claim that software or technology is an issue since these are already ONLINE businesses.

I haven't looked at the law so this may already be covered but if it isn't then it damn well should be.

theelusiveeightrop
05-07-2013, 05:57 AM
Always send the gubment a little extra, that is my motto.

ChiliConCarnage
05-07-2013, 07:30 AM
Does anyone think that government will decrease overall sales tax due to more revenue from internet sales tax?

I don't think they would or should. If I bought a TV 10 years ago at Best Buy I paid sales tax. If I bought one last year through Amazon I didn't. They are simply recouping money they've been losing.

I might be pulling a Clemens and misremembering but didn't the government decide not to implement a tax in the late 90's or early 00's because they didn't want to stifle the growth of the internet. A lot of people back then were still scared to do something like giving your credit card out to the internet or banking info. They probably should have passed this law years ago.

Prison Bitch
05-07-2013, 07:34 AM
I know what Solyndra is, and I guess that is a crack of some sort, but I have no idea how that is relevant or makes any sense.

I'm sure you already realize this :rolleyes:, but this the federal govt is not taking anyone's money here. It would completely be the state's option whether to seek the sales tax. As I said before, I personally would prefer not being charged sales tax if I buy something online and the store doesn't have a physical presence in my state. I just don't think it is unreasonable for sales tax to apply.

You sure seemed to be concerned with "leveling the field" and so I wanted to know if you felt like Obama's nutty energy subsidies should be considered part of that or not? I mean those firms were not only tax exempt but they got HANDOUTS as well! How come Notorious' firm didn't get handouts? Don't you believe in parity?

cosmo20002
05-07-2013, 08:09 AM
You sure seemed to be concerned with "leveling the field" and so I wanted to know if you felt like Obama's nutty energy subsidies should be considered part of that or not? I mean those firms were not only tax exempt but they got HANDOUTS as well! How come Notorious' firm didn't get handouts? Don't you believe in parity?

I mentioned 'leveling the field' in regards to online sales tax because that how many retailers see it. Solyndra has nothing to do with this, "handouts" have nothing to do with this.

I assume Notorious didn't get a "handout" because his company was not working on development of alternative energy sources. If you want to complain about Solyndra, you should probably start a new thread for that, or add to the one that is probably already out there.

BucEyedPea
05-07-2013, 08:14 AM
Shows that the Democrats, certain Republicans and Obama are all tax and spend leftists.

Prison Bitch
05-07-2013, 08:28 AM
I mentioned 'leveling the field' in regards to online sales tax because that how many retailers see it. Solyndra has nothing to do with this, "handouts" have nothing to do with this.

I assume Notorious didn't get a "handout" because his company was not working on development of alternative energy sources. If you want to complain about Solyndra, you should probably start a new thread for that, or add to the one that is probably already out there.


So basically you advocate a "level playing field" for Amazon and Barnes & Noble to compete with each other. But you don't really go for it when it doesn't fit your ideology. Worse you actually are ok with $500m taxpayer HANDOUTS on top of it all. Nice level playing field!



I guess your liberal views don't require consistency so I'm not surprised.

morphius
05-07-2013, 08:30 AM
Why should an internet store have to keep track of the buyers location and pay the sales tax where they live? When I buy something from a brick and mortar store in MO it doesn't have to pay sales taxes in KS. If it was about fair, make the internet site pay the local sales tax of where the store it is located, or your state if they have a presence in that state.

Dr. Gigglepants
05-07-2013, 08:48 AM
This flies directly in the face of a lot of SCOTUS precedent. Those cases weren't decided in the internet age, but they're still relevant to the fact pattern here. Do lawmakers even think of this stuff prior to shitting these bills out?
Posted via Mobile Device

Comrade Crapski
05-07-2013, 08:49 AM
Why would anyone be surprised? Weren't they listening when the commie pig from chicongo told everybody he planned to fundamentally change America?

FORWARD!

BucEyedPea
05-07-2013, 09:17 AM
Why would anyone be surprised? Weren't they listening when the commie pig from chicongo told everybody he planned to fundamentally change America?

FORWARD!

:LOL:

cosmo20002
05-07-2013, 10:23 AM
So basically you advocate a "level playing field" for Amazon and Barnes & Noble to compete with each other. But you don't really go for it when it doesn't fit your ideology. Worse you actually are ok with $500m taxpayer HANDOUTS on top of it all. Nice level playing field!

I guess your liberal views don't require consistency so I'm not surprised.

I'm not really advocating anything. Once again, "level playing field" is how the non-Amazons describe it. I'm just saying that it doesn't seem outrageous that if someone has to pay sales tax when they buy a book from Barnes & Noble that they would also have to pay sales tax when buying it from Amazon.

I'm really not sure why you're going into BEP mode and making up things I said. I realize you are desperately trying to make Solyndra relevant here for some reason, but it isn't, and I haven't said anything about it.

Dr. Gigglepants
05-07-2013, 10:57 AM
It does sound reasonable on the surface, until you realize the importance of the nexus concept to the application of sales taxes, as well as the astronomical administration costs that will be involved with compliance. It's not as easy as flipping a switch, and all of a sudden you start collecting sales taxes.

That said, states do think they are losing out on a lot of money, so they are going to do something. If SST ever really catches on it would make this a lot less painful on e retailers.
Posted via Mobile Device

AustinChief
05-07-2013, 12:43 PM
It does sound reasonable on the surface, until you realize the importance of the nexus concept to the application of sales taxes, as well as the astronomical administration costs that will be involved with compliance. It's not as easy as flipping a switch, and all of a sudden you start collecting sales taxes.

That said, states do think they are losing out on a lot of money, so they are going to do something. If SST ever really catches on it would make this a lot less painful on e retailers.
Posted via Mobile Device

I just read the bill and it pushes hard for SST. Most of my concerns were addressed by the bill and it doesn't look like it would be much of a burden on businesses at all. The bill requires each state to provide a single entity to handle all tax issues so the business doesn't have to keep up with individual localities. The bill also requires the states to provide software for this and allow for certified vendors.

For most businesses, it should be as easy as installing/integrating some software and then, yes, flipping a switch.

Still not sure I support the idea but at least one of my biggest concerns is off the table.

AustinChief
05-07-2013, 01:18 PM
This flies directly in the face of a lot of SCOTUS precedent. Those cases weren't decided in the internet age, but they're still relevant to the fact pattern here. Do lawmakers even think of this stuff prior to shitting these bills out?
Posted via Mobile Device

Actually this bill doesn't go against precedent. The SCOTUS has ruled that STATES have no right to enforce their tax laws on interstate commerce but that CONGRESS can. I don't see an issue in that regard.

Prison Bitch
05-07-2013, 01:40 PM
I'm not really advocating anything. Once again, "level playing field" is how the non-Amazons describe it. I'm just saying that it doesn't seem outrageous that if someone has to pay sales tax when they buy a book from Barnes & Noble that they would also have to pay sales tax when buying it from Amazon.

I'm really not sure why you're going into BEP mode and making up things I said. I realize you are desperately trying to make Solyndra relevant here for some reason, but it isn't, and I haven't said anything about it.


If that's really your belief I can buy your argument. But you did sorta let it slip that you agree with the idea and goal of alternative energy development and that sorta makes me believe you don't have all that big a problem with Solyndra's investment.


If that's true (and I'm guessing it is), you can see the problem advocating for tax fairness.

Dave Lane
05-07-2013, 05:34 PM
Measure Title: A bill to restore States' sovereign rights to enforce State and local sales and use tax laws, and for other purposes.


This is bad?

notorious
05-07-2013, 07:31 PM
Measure Title: A bill to restore States' sovereign rights to enforce State and local sales and use tax laws, and for other purposes.


This is bad?

The states should send all extra sales tax revenue to NASA.

mnchiefsguy
05-07-2013, 08:24 PM
This legislation will also effect digital downloads...might as well call it the Itunes Tax.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-57583085-38/internet-tax-bill-targets-all-digital-downloads/

AustinChief
05-07-2013, 08:51 PM
This legislation will also effect digital downloads...might as well call it the Itunes Tax.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-57583085-38/internet-tax-bill-targets-all-digital-downloads/

OK, now I'm OFFICIALLY against this. Taxing a physical good makes a certain amount of sense but taxing INFORMATION and SERVICES is ridiculous. I can see states abusing the crap out of this.

End result = off shore company. For $2000 you can set up an LLC and bank account offshore and avoid this whole mess. That's a no brainer.

And again we see short sighted tax law pushing business overseas. Nice work.

notorious
05-07-2013, 08:57 PM
OK, now I'm OFFICIALLY against this. Taxing a physical good makes a certain amount of sense but taxing INFORMATION and SERVICES is ridiculous. I can see states abusing the crap out of this.

End result = off shore company. For $2000 you can set up an LLC and bank account offshore and avoid this whole mess. That's a no brainer.

And again we see short sighted tax law pushing business overseas. Nice work.


When my brother and I owned a bowling alley we had to charge sales tax for people to bowl.


Carpet Cleaners are not required to charge sales tax.


The tax system is nuts.

WhiteWhale
05-07-2013, 10:12 PM
This isn't about leveling a playing field. It's about getting more revenue.

I say that as someone who operates a small business where the internet is killing our margins. I don't think this changes the market that much unless the tax is ridiculous.

Prison Bitch
05-07-2013, 10:48 PM
When my brother and I owned a bowling alley we had to charge sales tax for people to bowl.


Carpet Cleaners are not required to charge sales tax.


The tax system is nuts.

Is that because you're passing along cost of product already taxed?

notorious
05-07-2013, 10:56 PM
Is that because you're passing along cost of product already taxed?

No, Carpet Cleaning involves putting something into the carpet and taking it back out.


Why it's different then providing any other service is beyond my knowledge.

Prison Bitch
05-07-2013, 10:58 PM
But aren't you a reseller of cleaners already taxed along the supply chain? I don't know either way. Not a tax man!

nstygma
05-07-2013, 11:02 PM
Is that because you're passing along cost of product already taxed?certain "services" are not taxed. here's a breakdown of a few states: http://www.openskypolicy.org/many-commonly-taxed-services-not-taxed-in-nebraska

ChiliConCarnage
05-07-2013, 11:26 PM
OK, now I'm OFFICIALLY against this. Taxing a physical good makes a certain amount of sense but taxing INFORMATION and SERVICES is ridiculous. I can see states abusing the crap out of this.

End result = off shore company. For $2000 you can set up an LLC and bank account offshore and avoid this whole mess. That's a no brainer.

And again we see short sighted tax law pushing business overseas. Nice work.

Why should digital goods be tax exempt? iTunes already charges sales tax for apps and songs. Haven't they for a long time now? I've been paying it.. Hasn't everyone or have they been targeting me.