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View Full Version : Int'l Issues Will Sen. Ted Cruz ignite the next "birther" controversy?


Prison Bitch
05-08-2013, 08:17 AM
I like a lot of what Sen Cruz says and wondered about a potential run for President so last night I looked up his bio on Wiki. Immediately I noticed a big problem: Sen Cruz wasn't born in America. For anyone who who has read the Constitution, you know what that means for Ted's chances. However the WaPo answers the question in greater detail here:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/is-ted-cruz-eligible-to-run-for-president/2013/05/06/c906f0d2-b66d-11e2-b94c-b684dda07add_story.html



Now, suppose he is deemed eligible. Will the Left savage Cruz and claim he's inelibigle based on a "birther" controversy? They said anyone who did the same to Obama was a crazed paranoid nutball but this was AFTER they spent early 2008 questioning and disputing John McCain's eligibility (he was born in Panama). Will they make up their minds on this topic?



MSNBC (D-Network) panel recently discussed Cruz' eligibility here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOrQDiMDg4E

Donger
05-08-2013, 08:30 AM
IMO, he is not a natural born citizen. He was born in Canada, which isn't an immediate problem. The problem is that only his mother was a US citizen. His father wasn't.

Prison Bitch
05-08-2013, 08:42 AM
IMO, he is not a natural born citizen. He was born in Canada, which isn't an immediate problem. The problem is that only his mother was a US citizen. His father wasn't.

I think that might be backwards. Even 1 parent gets you citizenship rights, but the location of delivery is the "natural born" problem here.

KC native
05-08-2013, 08:47 AM
ROFL You are one dumb son of a bitch. Ted Cruz and possible presidential run ROFL

Donger
05-08-2013, 08:50 AM
I think that might be backwards. Even 1 parent gets you citizenship rights, but the location of delivery is the "natural born" problem here.

I'm going from memory here, but no, I don't believe I have it backwards. You are a natural born citizen if:

You are born on US soil, regardless of the citizenship of the parents.

You are not born on US soil of TWO US citizen parents.

Anything other than those two, and things get hazy.

There was a great write-up on States' website about this.

King_Chief_Fan
05-08-2013, 09:23 AM
I like a lot of what Sen Cruz says and wondered about a potential run for President so last night I looked up his bio on Wiki. Immediately I noticed a big problem: Sen Cruz wasn't born in America. For anyone who who has read the Constitution, you know what that means for Ted's chances. However the WaPo answers the question in greater detail here:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/is-ted-cruz-eligible-to-run-for-president/2013/05/06/c906f0d2-b66d-11e2-b94c-b684dda07add_story.html



Now, suppose he is deemed eligible. Will the Left savage Cruz and claim he's inelibigle based on a "birther" controversy? They said anyone who did the same to Obama was a crazed paranoid nutball but this was AFTER they spent early 2008 questioning and disputing John McCain's eligibility (he was born in Panama). Will they make up their minds on this topic?



MSNBC (D-Network) panel recently discussed Cruz' eligibility here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOrQDiMDg4E

no worry, Obama already cleared the way for aliens to be president:D

Brock
05-08-2013, 09:57 AM
Isn't turnabout fair play? I know you probably think repubs are somehow above it all, but I assure you they are not.

Donger
05-08-2013, 10:00 AM
Isn't turnabout fair play? I know you probably think repubs are somehow above it all, but I assure you they are not.

Absolutely fair, yes.

Prison Bitch
05-08-2013, 10:02 AM
Of course it's fair. It's hypocritical though.

Donger
05-08-2013, 10:04 AM
Of course it's fair. It's hypocritical though.

Why is it hypocritical?

Prison Bitch
05-08-2013, 10:13 AM
Because they threw endless tantrums about the "nuts" on the Right even thought they did it to McCain. And would do it to Cruz too.

Donger
05-08-2013, 10:15 AM
Because they threw endless tantrums about the "nuts" on the Right even thought they did it to McCain. And would do it to Cruz too.

I really don't see them as being comparable. There really wasn't any evidence that Obama was born anywhere other than Hawaii, which immediately makes him a natural born citizen. No one is denying that Cruz was born in Canada AND that his father was not a US citizen.

alnorth
05-08-2013, 10:19 AM
You can't really compare Obama to McCain and Cruz, since Obama was clearly, obviously, born in Hawaii.

Prison Bitch
05-08-2013, 10:22 AM
You can't really compare Obama to McCain and Cruz, since Obama was clearly, obviously, born in Hawaii.

Here come the justifications. Just like I predicted.

alnorth
05-08-2013, 10:24 AM
I'm going from memory here, but no, I don't believe I have it backwards. You are a natural born citizen if:

You are born on US soil, regardless of the citizenship of the parents.

You are not born on US soil of TWO US citizen parents.

Anything other than those two, and things get hazy.

There was a great write-up on States' website about this.

Actually, the only situation that is crystal-clear is if you are born in the US. (McCain was fine, because he was born in a US territory)

If you are born outside the US to two non-US citizen parents, then it is crystal-clear that you are not a natural-born citizen.

Thats it, those are the only two situations that are clear. It is not clear whether you are a natural-born citizen if you are born outside the US, even to two US parents.

It is also not clear that any of those gray-area cases are not natural-born citizens. (So, I disagree with your first post saying Cruz is not natural-born, it is hazy)

Cruz will need a supreme court ruling. I believe that if the supreme court was forced to rule, then they would say that anyone who was automatically eligible by law for US citizenship at birth, is a natural-born US citizen, which would mean every single gray-area case is resolved as natural-born, and the only people who are not natural born are those born outside the US to 2 non-citizen parents.

alnorth
05-08-2013, 10:25 AM
Here come the justifications. Just like I predicted.

I have no idea what you are talking about. I voted against Obama in both elections.

I'm just saying that only a looney tune would compare Obama to McCain and Cruz.

Donger
05-08-2013, 10:26 AM
(So, I disagree with your first post saying Cruz is not natural-born, it is hazy)

Yeah, I shouldn't have stated that so forcefully. Mea culpa.

cosmo20002
05-08-2013, 10:26 AM
I Will the Left savage Cruz and claim he's inelibigle based on a "birther" controversy? They said anyone who did the same to Obama was a crazed paranoid nutball

The Obama birthers are crazed paranoid nutballs. Obama was clearly born in the US. Cruz was clearly born in Canada, so one would not be a crazed paranoid nutball for pointing that out, since it is true. See how that works?

Place of birth aside, if Cruz runs, I expect he will get a large portion of the crazed paranoid nutball vote.

cosmo20002
05-08-2013, 10:28 AM
Because they threw endless tantrums about the "nuts" on the Right even thought they did it to McCain. And would do it to Cruz too.

I think you are really, really overstating the supposed McCain birthplace controversy.

Donger
05-08-2013, 10:31 AM
Ah, found it. From one of the Obama birther threads:

As I understand it, in the case of a child born abroad to one citizen and one alien within 1952 and 1986, the citizen parent must have physically lived in the US for ten years. Five of which must have been after the age of 14. So, if his mother birthed him at 18 in Kenya, she does not meet that threshold and Barack Hussein is not a citizen, let alone a "natural-born citizen."

cosmo20002
05-08-2013, 10:35 AM
Ah, found it. From one of the Obama birther threads:

As I understand it, in the case of a child born abroad to one citizen and one alien within 1952 and 1986, the citizen parent must have physically lived in the US for ten years. Five of which must have been after the age of 14. So, if his mother birthed him at 18 in Kenya, she does not meet that threshold and Barack Hussein is not a citizen, let alone a "natural-born citizen."

This is complete nonsense.

Donger
05-08-2013, 10:36 AM
This is complete nonsense.

What part? It's from States' website.

cosmo20002
05-08-2013, 11:02 AM
What part? It's from States' website.

The part that assumes he was born in Kenya.

Donger
05-08-2013, 11:05 AM
The part that assumes he was born in Kenya.

Oh that. Yes, that's why I posed it as a hypothetical.

Prison Bitch
05-08-2013, 12:05 PM
I think you are really, really overstating the supposed McCain birthplace controversy.

So not only are the Cruz-Obama situations totally different, but the McCain questions never really happened either. The justifying is ramping up I see.

VAChief
05-08-2013, 12:13 PM
Here come the justifications. Just like I predicted.

Justifications? There were known facts and there were theories in the birther situation with Obama. I think what he meant was the known facts in the case of Cruz there are no theories to the contrary.

FD
05-08-2013, 12:33 PM
It seems to be pretty clear he is a natural-born citizen, despite being born abroad, based on statute. I don't think there will be any controversy.

jiveturkey
05-08-2013, 01:15 PM
So not only are the Cruz-Obama situations totally different, but the McCain questions never really happened either. The justifying is ramping up I see.

Is this preemptive butt hurt?

It's like you're playing this in a way that makes it look like all of the birther freaks on on the Dem side. I remember McCain getting a bit of the birther treatment in sort of a goofy response to Obama wackiness. It was short lived, while the Obama wackiness is ongoing.

I would wonder if the current birther freaks would remain birther freaks even if Cruz is cleared.

I personally don't give a poop. If he's cleared then he's good to go IMO.

Prison Bitch
05-08-2013, 01:24 PM
Is this preemptive butt hurt?

It's like you're playing this in a way that makes it look like all of the birther freaks on on the Dem side.

Um, not the point.


I remember McCain getting a bit of the birther treatment in sort of a goofy response to Obama wackiness.

Exactly. "I can do it if you can do it" isn't a logical rebuttal. It's either incorrectly argued and unimportant or it's not.


It was short lived, while the Obama wackiness is ongoing.

Yeah, if McCain had won the Election and Obama went back to the Senate, I'm sure the Obama birthers would still be looking into it.

Chocolate Hog
05-08-2013, 01:25 PM
I like a lot of what Sen Cruz says and wondered about a potential run for President so last night I looked up his bio on Wiki. Immediately I noticed a big problem: Sen Cruz wasn't born in America. For anyone who who has read the Constitution, you know what that means for Ted's chances. However the WaPo answers the question in greater detail here:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/is-ted-cruz-eligible-to-run-for-president/2013/05/06/c906f0d2-b66d-11e2-b94c-b684dda07add_story.html



Now, suppose he is deemed eligible. Will the Left savage Cruz and claim he's inelibigle based on a "birther" controversy? They said anyone who did the same to Obama was a crazed paranoid nutball but this was AFTER they spent early 2008 questioning and disputing John McCain's eligibility (he was born in Panama). Will they make up their minds on this topic?



MSNBC (D-Network) panel recently discussed Cruz' eligibility here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOrQDiMDg4E

No Rand Paul will represent that wing of the party in '16

BucEyedPea
05-08-2013, 03:18 PM
I personally don't give a poop. If he's cleared then he's good to go IMO.

Not even a gigantisch kracken?

BigRedChief
05-08-2013, 05:10 PM
McCain was born in US territory. Thats cool when both parents are USA citzens and serving in the military.

Cruz is different. "Natural born" in the constitution has always been ruled by the courts to be on USA soil, correct? Seems to be a potential problem.

BucEyedPea
05-08-2013, 05:38 PM
McCain was born in US territory. Thats cool when both parents are USA citzens and serving in the military.

That's something I'd like to see changed.

cosmo20002
05-08-2013, 06:10 PM
That's something I'd like to see changed.

Why?

AustinChief
05-08-2013, 08:00 PM
McCain was born in US territory. Thats cool when both parents are USA citzens and serving in the military.

Cruz is different. "Natural born" in the constitution has always been ruled by the courts to be on USA soil, correct? Seems to be a potential problem.

Actually no. It has generally been considered to be "born a citizen." That's it. So if the law changed to say "anyone born in France with two French parents but has the middle name Eustace" is a US citizen.. then they are "natural born." Since Cruz was born a US citizen he is "natural born."

That's all there is to it.

Prison Bitch
05-08-2013, 08:12 PM
Cruz is different. "Natural born" in the constitution has always been ruled by the courts to be on USA soil, correct?.

Are you asking or just making a wild assertion?

BigRedChief
05-08-2013, 09:30 PM
Actually no. It has generally been considered to be "born a citizen." That's it. So if the law changed to say "anyone born in France with two French parents but has the middle name Eustace" is a US citizen.. then they are "natural born." Since Cruz was born a US citizen he is "natural born."

That's all there is to it.I read several articles back when this came up with McCain that said the courts have ruled many times that "natural born" = on USA soil, so McCain was qualified if it ever went to court.

I could be remembering wrong, been drunk that month or on meth. Just saying.......

FTR, I think if you are born to American parents anywhere in the world should be eligible for the presidency.

AustinChief
05-08-2013, 10:32 PM
I read several articles back when this came up with McCain that said the courts have ruled many times that "natural born" = on USA soil, so McCain was qualified if it ever went to court.

I could be remembering wrong, been drunk that month or on meth. Just saying.......

FTR, I think if you are born to American parents anywhere in the world should be eligible for the presidency.

I have heard "opinions" stating that but no actual court cases (but I also didn't pay too close attention since I never lent the issue any credence). More to the point I think with McCain that was just one way to prove he was fine but that didn't necessarily mean that it was the only way to be "natural born."

I highly doubt it will be anything other than a fringe issue if he even runs.

KC native
05-08-2013, 10:37 PM
ROFL @ anyone who thinks Cruz has a shot at anything outside of Texas.

AustinChief
05-08-2013, 10:54 PM
ROFL @ anyone who thinks Cruz has a shot at anything outside of Texas.

Cruz is a ridiculously great debater and pretty damn smart. It would be incredibly stupid to underestimate him at this point. He's completely unproven right now but that cuts both ways.

Prison Bitch
05-08-2013, 11:16 PM
Cruz is a ridiculously great debater and pretty damn smart. It would be incredibly stupid to underestimate him at this point. He's completely unproven right now but that cuts both ways.

There is no way some 46 year old, minority, first term Senator with an extremely partisan voting record, a questionable birth issue, Harvard Law alum married with two daughters would ever be electable.


(Oops)

KC native
05-09-2013, 10:41 AM
Cruz is a ridiculously great debater and pretty damn smart. It would be incredibly stupid to underestimate him at this point. He's completely unproven right now but that cuts both ways.

I'm going to vehemently disagree with the pretty smart portion. Had to listen to his shit constantly up during the last election season. The guy is an extreme tea partier and is not electable for a nationwide electorate.

Prison Bitch
05-09-2013, 10:57 AM
Why would we trust that a Princeton and Harvard educated lawyer who won the national college debate championship and then went on to become US Senator would be any more intelligent than an internet idiot named "KCNative"

VAChief
05-09-2013, 11:10 AM
I'm going to vehemently disagree with the pretty smart portion. Had to listen to his shit constantly up during the last election season. The guy is an extreme tea partier and is not electable for a nationwide electorate.

In a Venn Diagram of "Smart" intersecting "Crazy" I would say there is considerable room for Senator Cruz.

AustinChief
05-09-2013, 12:26 PM
I'm going to vehemently disagree with the pretty smart portion. Had to listen to his shit constantly up during the last election season. The guy is an extreme tea partier and is not electable for a nationwide electorate.

I'd wager I've listened to quite a bit more of Cruz and he's not as "extreme" as you want to paint him. There's a HUGE difference in how you posture in a local Texas primary and how you position yourself nationally. You (and I) have ZERO clue how he'll present himself to a national audience. The only indications we have are what he has shown nationally so far... and nothing has been "extreme." My only concern(right now) is that he is too Baptist for my tastes. If he downplays that aspect(social conservatism) he is a VERY palatable candidate.

And you are a fucking joke if you think he isn't smart. that is one of the most absurdly ridiculous assertions you can make about him.

Cruz’s grasp of the Constitution was so strong that it commanded the respect of liberals, including Prof. Alan M. Dershowitz, who taught him in a first-year criminal-law class at Harvard Law School, where Cruz enrolled in the fall of 1992. “Cruz was off-the- charts brilliant,” Dershowitz says.

Of course you know more about him than a massively distinguished far left legal scholar and professor who ACTUALLY knows him.

tiptap
05-09-2013, 01:38 PM
The guys smart. There is no doubting that. And as a Democrat, it is fine with me if he runs. Having been born in a territory (DC), I am all inclusive of narrowly interpreting the anti-Hamilton qualification for the Presidency. It served its purpose. Let it die.

Prison Bitch
05-09-2013, 02:27 PM
The guys smart. There is no doubting that. And as a Democrat, it is fine with me if he runs. Having been born in a territory (DC), I am all inclusive of narrowly interpreting the anti-Hamilton qualification for the Presidency. It served its purpose. Let it die.


I think you're right, but I wonder when the line gets drawn. A few years ago, there were some whackos in the GOP that were pimping the Governator as a potential Prez candidate. They suggested trying to overturn the citizen requirement in the law. Some dopes in the GOP have even suggested overturning it might appeal to Hispanics as a softening on immigration.


Dopes.

BigRedChief
05-09-2013, 03:30 PM
Cruz is a ridiculously great debater and pretty damn smart. It would be incredibly stupid to underestimate him at this point. He's completely unproven right now but that cuts both ways.Being a great debater and smart is not enough to overcome the extreme right wing social conservatism he states at every opportunity. The national electorate is not ready nor in my opinion ever be ready again to elect a social conservative to the Presidency.

Chocolate Hog
05-11-2013, 01:32 PM
Being a great debater and smart is not enough to overcome the extreme right wing social conservatism he states at every opportunity. The national electorate is not ready nor in my opinion ever be ready again to elect a social conservative to the Presidency.

George Bush wasn't a Socon?

|Zach|
05-11-2013, 05:48 PM
I think every Republican should double down on the birther stuff. Spend some real time getting to the bottom of it. :thumb:

BigRedChief
05-11-2013, 05:54 PM
George Bush wasn't a Socon?I was talking about 2016 and beyond.

I just don't see a scenario where the majority of America will want to elect a president who vows to ban abortion or make it more difficult, ban gay marriage, put don't ask/don't tell in place, defund planned parenthood, ban the plan b prescription pill etc. etc.

Psyko Tek
05-11-2013, 07:38 PM
ROFL You are one dumb son of a bitch. Ted Cruz and possible presidential run ROFL

love to see that
he is a natural born comedy piece

Psyko Tek
05-11-2013, 07:40 PM
Isn't turnabout fair play? I know you probably think repubs are somehow above it all, but I assure you they are not.

if there is mon ey to be made repubs are above nothing

Prison Bitch
05-11-2013, 07:49 PM
if there is mon ey to be made repubs are above nothing

The Dems were the first known "birthers":

http://reason.com/blog/2012/05/19/chester-arthur-and-the-original-birther

Prison Bitch
08-14-2013, 07:54 AM
And....here we go:

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2013/08/14/cnn_is_ted_cruz_eligible_to_run_for_president.html

|Zach|
08-14-2013, 08:05 AM
Nice!

ClevelandBronco
08-14-2013, 09:51 AM
I was talking about 2016 and beyond.

I just don't see a scenario where the majority of America will want to elect a president who vows to ban abortion or make it more difficult, ban gay marriage, put don't ask/don't tell in place, defund planned parenthood, ban the plan b prescription pill etc. etc.

The GOP either rebrands itself as a party of individual liberty that applies sound fiscal practices to promoting private business with as little favor as possible and applying frugal business principles to government or it becomes a regional party until it dies. Individual behaviors cannot be the business of government. It's up to the people themselves to promote healthy change without wielding the club of government, IMHO.

Prison Bitch
08-14-2013, 09:56 AM
Individual behaviors cannot be the business of government. It's up to the people themselves to promote healthy chance without wielding the club of government, IMHO.

This is a very simplistic view of the world. Government and tax policy can (and should) be used to promote desired behavior. Didn't Reagan always teach that when you subsidize something you get more of it? So why not subsidize that which you want to occur?

There's a segment of our society that cannot and will not live responsibly. Since the welfare state is here to stay it's impossible to dismantle it. The GOP can't even beat Obama in a bad economy so there's little chance the "no government" view is going to have a chance.

ClevelandBronco
08-14-2013, 10:14 AM
It's not a view of the world. It's the eulogy for a dead party.

Chocolate Hog
08-14-2013, 12:57 PM
Its too bad this joker will steal votes from Rand Paul

Prison Bitch
08-14-2013, 01:04 PM
It's not a view of the world. It's the eulogy for a dead party.

I think you vastly over-estimate the popularity of limited government among the voters.

Donger
08-14-2013, 01:06 PM
Its too bad this joker will steal votes from Rand Paul

:spock:

I'll admit that I haven't really looked at Cruz very closely, but how is he different than Paul?

Amnorix
08-14-2013, 01:31 PM
Here come the justifications. Just like I predicted.


Facts are justifications, yes.

Look, EVERY fact pointed to Hawaii. ALL of them. The birth certificate (verified by senior state officials including Republicans) and the newspaper reports.

There were no facts pointing to anyplace else. All there really was were whacky theories about the birth certificate being faked, somehow.

Sounds like here the facts aren't much in question. The only question is whether those facts give him the right to be POTUS under the Constitution. I have no idea what the answer is to that, but it can hardly be said that "those whacky liberals declared that birthplace is irrelevant to qualifying for President!!!" which is what you seem to be suggesting.

If Obama was born in Kenya, then he wouldn't have been eligible, period.