View Full Version : Latest Florida news.....
crazy chiefs fan
11-13-2000, 12:33 PM
Bush lost appeal for block,Gore heads to court to expand deadline! How many of you saw this one coming? I DID!
Frazod
11-13-2000, 12:48 PM
I just heard that too. I am so disgusted with the Democrats. I am embarrased to admit that I used to be one. I watched one of the county news conference this morning and what came from that even disgusted me more. It had to do with the hand-counting process. It will be done if four parts.
Those votes who are clearly for Bush.
Those votes who are clearly for Gore.
Those votes who are clearly for another candidate.
And those votes who are questionable.
The questionable votes is what really disturbs me. Those votes will go in front of a panel and the panel will decide the intent of the voter. HOW WRONG AND UNCONSTITUTIONAL IS THAT? I would not want anyone to decide for me what my intent was. The sad thing is that America is letting the Dems get away with it. The Dems are going to politisize the electorial process just like they did during impeachment process. The rule of law does not matter.
Sorry everyone, just doing a little venting on what I heard this morning.
Dan <BR>
crazy chiefs fan
11-13-2000, 12:56 PM
DAN
I agree with you,also a hand count that is taken place ,if used is unconsitional to the rest to of the voters who voted! Why should only 4 counties,basically a democratic county be allowed for this and not the whole state? It's time to take the 2nd recount and wait on the overseas ballots and call a winner! Fair is Fair !
Frazod
11-13-2000, 01:28 PM
I agree Roy, the whole state should recounted by hand, not just Democratic strong holds. I do believe that Gore is entitled to a hand count under Florida law but he should not be allowed to pick and choose which counties. I just don't feel good about how they are doing it now (especially that panel that will decide the questionable ballots). There is too much at stake.
There is an interesting story running on World Net Daily called "How Democrats Steal Elections"
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/
Makes you wonder (and nervous).
Dan<BR>
crazy chiefs fan
11-13-2000, 01:47 PM
DAN
OOOuuuuccchh,that's gotta hurt? Man I didn't trust this hand count at 1st and now feel worse about it!
This is an ugly article for the Dem's!
DaKCMan AP
11-13-2000, 02:07 PM
The good thing is that they have to have it all done by 5pm tomorrow by state law. There is no room for movement under the law as I have heard it, all votes MUST be in by 5 and all that are not will not count.
I even heard CNN say that the law doesn't allow for anything but having the votes in and certified by 5 tomorrow.
crazy chiefs fan
11-13-2000, 02:17 PM
Morph...
That is the best news I've have heard out of this thing so far! The Dem's are still try'n to extend that!<BR>
gh4chiefs
11-13-2000, 02:41 PM
Morph....The law allows the deadline to be at the discretion of the Fla Sec of State. She could extend it till whenever she wants - like till Friday when the rest of the votes are certified. But she's a Republican party hac so she'll not extend it one minute so she can throw out the legitimate votes of the Dem counties. She holds the election in her hand, and has the legal power to send it Bush's way.
htismaqe
11-13-2000, 02:48 PM
UD,
What is your source for that interpretation?
My understanding is that the statute is very clear about what she MUST do, the noted exception being elections held in the aftermath of Hurricane Andrew.
Do you know where we can view the statute?
Luz
thinking this is but another case of manipulation/misdirection...
crazy chiefs fan
11-13-2000, 02:51 PM
Duck
How can that be worst than to have the Dem's in controll of the recount,or the hand count?
Do you think that a fair count will come out of that!Deadlines are made to protect the fairness of the vote!
Fat Homer
11-13-2000, 02:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Helvetica, verdana, ariel">quote:</font><HR>can throw out the legitimate votes of the Dem counties<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You mean those counties that Bush has won not once, but TWICE?! Look, the votes have been cast, the ballots have been counted, and then recounted per/Florida law. Bush won.
Raiderhater
11-13-2000, 02:59 PM
Yeah, the Gore camp needs more time to manufacture more 'legitimate' votes for Gore. They only need about 1000 to be safe.
alanm
11-13-2000, 03:03 PM
Here is the released statement from the Florida Secretary of State:
http://www.cnn.com/2000/ALLPOLITICS/stories/11/13/harris.statement/
xoxo~
gaz
admires her courage and awaits an activist judge to interfere.<BR>
Gracie Dean
11-13-2000, 03:04 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Helvetica, verdana, ariel">quote:</font><HR>....The law allows the deadline to be at the discretion of the Fla Sec of State. She could extend it till whenever she wants <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
UD - at best that is misinformed. At worst it is a bald-faced lie.
the statute in question uses the [until now] clear term 'shall' be presented. How sad that the Dems have gone from pondering the metaphysical meaning of 'is' to pondering the metaphysical meaning of 'shall.'
Last Tuesday, my votes were pretty evenly matched between Repubs [Bush, Ashcroft, Holden] and Dems [Skelton, state and local office holders]. And the Ashcroft vote was more to avoid a legal crisis [which Ashcroft appears to have averted with honor] than on ideological grounds. but now that I have seen the seemy underbelly of Dem powermongering and refusal to face the prospects of loss, I will be hard-pressed to EVER vote Dem again. The bile is sufficient that I would go green, Independant, Consitutional, Reform, etc. first.
crazy chiefs fan
11-13-2000, 04:04 PM
JC_Johnny
It will be great to have you on our side,but any side is better than the Dem's side!
Gracie Dean
11-13-2000, 04:12 PM
ROYC - don't get too excited about the 'sides' thing. I have consistently said that my vote for Bush was, more than anything, a vote for a culture of reconciliation. The fear-mongering of the last few weeks of the campaign and the endless strategems to secure Algore's 'rightful' ascension to leader of the free world have cemented my belief that, on the whole, Dems hold more ill-will towards non-Dems than Repubs hold towards non-Repubs.
In long the long run, I predict that the Dems' connection to the 'win-at-all-costs' wing of their party will soon overshadow the Repubs' connection to the religious right and gun-toters.
crazy chiefs fan
11-13-2000, 04:24 PM
Jc_Johnny
Just poke'n ya a little,still rather see you vote for anybody than "MOST" Dem's! Haven't seen to many Dem's I like really well for Prez! Voted a few for local and state office before! C YA !
Cannibal
11-13-2000, 04:41 PM
I'm with Duck on this one, this morning on ABC News they said the staute is at the discretion of the person in charge and not set in stone (in other words if this recount would favor Bush, she would probably have extended the deadline at her discretion), and there is a very high probability that in court if they show that it is unreasonable to have the count done by the said deadline, the courts will say OK, we will grant the extension and you can finish the count properly.
We'll see what the courts do with it...
gh4chiefs
11-13-2000, 04:47 PM
Luz...Sorry, I'm not an expert on Florida law. I just sound like one sometimes when I listen to lawyers on the news. I'm sure we'll all be getting crash courses pretty soon.
I heard that there is a deadline, but also that the overriding principle is that (sorry, DanT) the "will of the people" be done. I interperated that "will" to mean Floridians having their ballots counted. Even the ones that did not register in the machines. So the Repulslican campaign co-chair can extend the deadline to ascertain the will of the people. But I don't expect her to. Last thing they want is all the votes counted. Now they have a legal way to keep those Floridians from being counted.
crazy chiefs fan
11-13-2000, 04:48 PM
DaWolf
Last week she told everyone that the cutoff would be Tues ! If you don't have a cutoff,this thing will get drug out till January.
crazy chiefs fan
11-13-2000, 04:56 PM
THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE....come on,give me a break! Who knows how much cheat'n is going on,you can't have 2 Dem's and 1 Rep look'n at a vote,and get a accurate count!It would matter if it was the other way either,no accurate counts! How many counts do we need before we get 2 counts alike! That would be more accurate and the will of the people could be used then,2 counts with same totals,BOTTOM LINE is no 2 counts are going to come up in this election,PERIOD! If the votes didn't count on the machines,so be it,PERIOD,machines are impartial to the people or parties! No hand counts,1 recount,let it ride,count the overseas ballots,declare a winner,whoever it is,get it over with!
Romel
11-13-2000, 05:00 PM
Hey Ugly Duck,
I think you might be confusing me with another Dan. Either that or your reference to me in your last reply went completely over my head http://63.249.247.210/ubb/wink.gif
--DanT
Cannibal
11-13-2000, 05:04 PM
And my response to that is that you have members from each party there to inspect the goings on, so fraud is unlikely. You have a recount that showed that the original machine count was wrong by a lot, and you have hand counts that show that there were a lot of votes the machines did not scan even though only one candidate was chosen. You have computer scientists saying that machine counts are far from perfect and the amount of error involved in them could be the difference in this election. You have the republicans who had an equal opportunity to ask for their own hand counts if they wanted, nobody stopped them from doing so.
As far as cutoff, these hand counts by all accounts would be done by this weekend at the latest, not January. Why are we in such a hurry to discount votes?
Is the "will of the people" or "let's get it over with" more important? We'll find out from the courts soon enough...
gh4chiefs
11-13-2000, 06:01 PM
DanT...I thought you were the one that said if you heard the phrase "will of the people" one more time tou were gonna scream. To whoever said that, I apologigze for invoking it.
I keep hearing stuff like "never-ending counts" and "counting til you get the results you like". Where does that come from? There was the machine count. Then the automatic recount dictated by law because the result was so close. Now a hand count to pick up the votes that the machines missed, also provided for by law. The hand count is the first count for the ballots that were missed by machine. It looks like the election is proceding according to the rules in a close race. I just don't see where the idea of "never-ending counts" is coming from.
redbrian
11-13-2000, 06:21 PM
IMO, whoever finally becomes President is screwed, anyway. Not only is the house divided almost exactly down the middle, but the "President" will probably have an asterisk next to his name in history books, and rightfully so, IMO.
This whole cluster-fu_k was so poorly handled by Bush and Gore that Nader is starting to sound like a viable option! http://63.249.247.210/ubb/rolleyes.gif
htismaqe
11-13-2000, 06:29 PM
Duck and DaWolf,
I think you both need to read the link that Gaz provided.
I hope that you both know that I like haggling with you and that I have a (sometimes grudging) respect for you both.
In this instance, however, you are both glaringly wrong. I believe it is because of your partisanship (understandable), and something else you both referred to: the news.
If you are basing your views on what you hear from ABC (or any other network), you are going to have your opinion manipulated.
When you hear a news report, you must also listen for them to report the supporting documentation. It is my experience that the major networks almost never do this... or, they wait and provide the evidence at a later date. Manytimes at this later date the networks, upon scrutiny, report that the 'evidence' doesn't hold water. This doesn't negate the fact that the original report went out giving bad information.
Is this biased journalism? In most cases, I believe it is just lazy reporting.
Luz
not sure which is worse...
[This message has been edited by Luzap (edited 11-13-2000).]
Fort Chief
11-13-2000, 07:31 PM
Luzap,
Where do you get your information if not from the "news" if you don't mind me asking?
crazy chiefs fan
11-13-2000, 07:40 PM
WOLF
This recount by hand is not fair to the rest of Florida voters in other counties,also across the USA. Why just a few counties ? Why much they be a Democratic majority county ?Why not all Florida counties? When someone does lose,(God only knows when)How do we know more counts will not be needed to satisfy the "WILL OF THE PEOPLE" To the ones who can not vote properly,basicly 5% of Floridas voters,how can it be fair to the 95% of the Florida voter who was resposible enough to get it right on ELECTION DAY! The "WILL OF THE PEOPLE(responsible people) have spoken to this date. How can this recount by hand be fair to the people in other counties? How can the "will of the people" be expressed in the western panhandle of Florida that went home early in the polls cause the election was called early,they didn't vote! Yes it is there fault they didn't vote just like it is the others voters fault they made a poor choice or could vote properly,they had there chance to have there vote change before being counted !
Mosbonian
11-13-2000, 07:43 PM
Cannibal,
It is called the library, the Internet, phone calls, there are an awful lot of ways to gather information rather than relying on the media. I for one have not once used the media for recount results instead using the Fla Sec of State site I published for everyones use on a couple of other posts. Try it you might find it enlightening.
Sorry I answered for you Luz, but this type of silly reliance on the media drives me nuts.
------------------
Jim Reynolds
If I were a Democrat I would surely be a sore loser!
crazy chiefs fan
11-13-2000, 07:45 PM
WOLF
BTW,it was reported also that the recount is 2 dem's,1 rep,meaning the dem's get the tie breaker on the dispute of each ballot! This not fair,wouldn't be fair if it was 2 rep,and 1 dem!
Fort Chief
11-13-2000, 07:47 PM
Logical,
Then don't ever let me hear you quote any of the major networks or magazines when something supports your arguement.
I see it all the time.
When a Right Winger see something in the "liberal media" that supports his arguement he quotes it to high heaven. But when the media reports something other than what the Right Winger wants to hear, they fall back on the "liberal media" card.
Happens all the time, on this board especially.
[This message has been edited by Cannibal (edited 11-13-2000).]
Mosbonian
11-13-2000, 07:54 PM
Cannibal,
When have you ever seen me quote a newspaper or magazine. I will attribute the information, but I do not use them as the defense of my positions. For example if I say USA Today reported that Bush is carrying the mail in vote (they did not as of yet) that is saying I am passing their information along. That is not the same as saying I believe I am right that Bush will be the winner, because CNN has projected him to have more votes than Gore. Do you see the difference.
Fort Chief
11-13-2000, 08:00 PM
I have seen MANY members of Right do exactly what I pointed out in # 30 MANY times.
If you're not one of them don't worry about it and don't let me catch you doing it.
Mosbonian
11-13-2000, 08:02 PM
One other thing Cannibal, I thought you once castigated me for trying to label you a left wing socialist. Now you wish to label me as a right winger. I am a proud conservative, but a right winger is probably a stretch, remember my position on the courts taking down big tobacco (I was completely for it), that was hardly a right wing position. One of our best Presidents up there in the top 5 was Truman a Democrat, but one who understood conservative values in general, and could make the correct tough call (Hiroshima and Nagasaki). I can see both sides of many issues and am not easily categorized, perhaps you should attempt to do the same. I was simply answering your question. Do you disagree that there are other ways to get information than from the media.
------------------
Jim Reynolds
If I were a Democrat I would surely be a sore loser!
Fort Chief
11-13-2000, 08:10 PM
I never said there weren't any other ways to get information.
I just don't want to see any Right Wingers on this board quote the major networks or magazines or newspapers... EVER!
It is totally hypocritical to bash the "liberal" media in one breath, and then use it while supporting your arguement in another. It doesn't work.
If you're not a "Right Winger" then you have nothing to worry about.
[This message has been edited by Cannibal (edited 11-13-2000).]
Phobia
11-13-2000, 08:13 PM
I've been labeled as a liberal on this board, even though I tend to have conservative views on several issues. Nobody ever talks about them on this board, just ones I disagree with many of you about, like school vouchers and unions. There was even one person who compared being anti-voucher to being pro-abortion. Not sure where the connection is.
Wasn't "logical" http://63.249.247.210/ubb/smile.gif at least to me
[This message has been edited by Mi_chief_fan (edited 11-13-2000).]
Romel
11-13-2000, 08:21 PM
Cannibal,
Logical and all the rest of us have something to worry about by the careless tossing-about of labels like "Right-Winger", "communist", etc. It takes away from the civility of the discourse, which is bad, because we should all jealously preserve our incivility so that it has full potency when we unleash it on Raider and Bronco trolls.
Fort Chief
11-13-2000, 08:24 PM
I don't think I was being uncivil.
Phobia
11-13-2000, 08:30 PM
Cannibal,
I don't know much about you, but I remember one thread a few weeks back where you went off on luz, calling him "luzer", or something like that. I've had my share of disagreements with luz, but have always kept it civil, and he has always shown class. Nobody wants this board to turn into another kcstar.com.
Fort Chief
11-13-2000, 08:33 PM
Like I said, I wasn't being uncivil IMO.
I'm sure Luz will be the first to admit he's a Right Winger.
It's not breaking news or anything.
Romel
11-13-2000, 08:33 PM
Cannibal,
It's a little provocative to tell someone that if they're not a [insert bad name here], then they don't have to worry about being considered one, especially after that someone has expressed concern that you might already be considering them one. Doncha' think? It sounds like something a SS officer would say to the hero in an old war movie.
Fort Chief
11-13-2000, 08:37 PM
You can try to chastize me all you like.
I'll apologize for nothing unless it's warranted.
I know what's up and who's who on this board unless your a newbie.
Phobia
11-13-2000, 08:43 PM
Hey gaz,
if your still here, I could use your help. I'm giving a report on gun control, and could use a good link, preferably one with some neat charts & graphs, and since your the master, I thought I would ask.
BTW, i'm an avid sportsman, and AGAINST gun control. At least for law abiding citizens.
[This message has been edited by Mi_chief_fan (edited 11-13-2000).]
AustinChief
11-14-2000, 06:31 AM
Cannibal - First of all, I resent the fact that you have the nerve to type "I dont want the right wingers....". WHo the hell are you to tell anyone what you want and dont want? I guess if I post "I dont want liberals posting their assinine viewpoints on how to run my life, spend my taxes, or take my guns", you will stop?
Secondly, I am not sure if you are being dense or deliberating avoiding facts. When right wingers complain about liberal media, they are not complaining about a lying media, merely one that omits or buries facts. So when the media does bring something to light, it is something that anyone can express.
I see no problem in saying the media does not report ALL facts and then use the few facts when they do. If you do, please explain to me what the hell you are talking about.
alanm
11-14-2000, 07:47 AM
Mi_chief_fan-
Here's a good starting point:
http://www.ccrkba.org/
There is a link to the Right to Keep and Bear Arms webring, which has 373 sites.
Good luck in your search.
xoxo~
gaz
unofficial librarian.
Phobia
11-14-2000, 08:35 AM
Gaz,
Thanks! Good info. It should come in handy. Last week in class, some exchange student from Jamaica gave a report containing nothing but his personal opinions, no factual info. I asked him to read the second amendment. His response? "What's the 2nd amendment?" I feel it's my duty to educate him.<BR>
alanm
11-14-2000, 08:40 AM
Mi_chiefs_fan-
Good luck. Education is probably impossible at this point, because he sounds like a Democrat.
xoxo~
gaz
equal opportunity political basher.<BR>
Fort Chief
11-14-2000, 08:52 AM
Russ do you think the media is "biased"?
Yes, you do.
So don't ever use the "liberal" media when trying to support one of your arguements.
It's makes no sense.
If you can't trust the media when they aren't supporting your views, then you can't trust them when they do.
That's all I'm saying.
Play the "liberal media" card all you wish, but please stop watching it and reading it. Get all your news from Flush Limblah and "The American Spectator".
Phobia
11-14-2000, 09:16 AM
Gaz,
I think this guy is even more liberal than most democrats. I tend to think of myself as a "republicrat." I'm not staunch on both sides. But i'm passionate about people who want to take away our guns. Here's some of this guys suggestions:
1) Manufacturers should decrease production by 50%
2) Prices on guns should increase 100%
3) It should be at the sellers discretion to sell you a gun. If he doesn't think your reason is valid, he can deny you the gun.
Maybe he was happier in Jamaica, mon.
redbrian
11-14-2000, 09:24 AM
The president alone cannot change gun laws.
htismaqe
11-14-2000, 09:50 AM
Russ,
Some people can tell when they're being lied to, and apparently, others cannot.
Cannibal seems to treat everyone as if they're lying. I guess he doesn't believe that anyone could have more insight into human nature than he has.
Luz
looking for my 'right winger' card...
gh4chiefs
11-14-2000, 11:51 AM
Lets see now....The Bush campaign co-chair and Sec of State allowed full handcounts in Bush counties and Bush picked up votes. Then she stopped the handcounts in Dem counties saying they are illegal. Kinda seems like a double standard to pick and choose the hand counts she wants to include. If her block of the Palm Beach handcount stands, will she then take away the Bush votes that resulted from the other handcounts?
NewsFlash! Corrupt Republicans are counting Iowa votes with hand calculators to fish for Bush votes! Interesting that the Gore folks are not protesting. Repubs only seem to have problems with counts that may pick up Dem votes, but don't resist counts in areas that pick up Bush votes. The Dems don't have any problems with anyone's votes being counted.
redbrian
11-14-2000, 11:55 AM
There's that snobbish attitude again...
"I'm a Republican, therefore I am superior to you in every way...even my ability to detect a lie is vastly superior to your own."
Fort Chief
11-14-2000, 11:56 AM
I actually can usually tell when people are lying. Just like many others can.
I just get tired of the people playing "Liberal Media" card.
Please, please just take my advice and never, ever watch the network news on television, or read newspapers. You might also want to bypass major magazines and internet news sites.
Just keep on getting your information from Limblah and the Spectator, and maybe your perfect little Right Wing Conservative world will remain intact.
Also, as I have told others, do not play the liberal media card and then turn right around and quote a supposed "liberal" media outlet when trying to support an argument.
[This message has been edited by Cannibal (edited 11-14-2000).]
[This message has been edited by Cannibal (edited 11-14-2000).]
Raiderhater
11-14-2000, 11:58 AM
The judge has ordered that the 5PM Deadline remain in tact.
redbrian
11-14-2000, 12:00 PM
On the news this morning, they said it was 7:45 a.m. and 35 degrees.
Thanks to Luzap's insight, I no longer feel I can trust my local news anchor! For all I know, it might have been midnight and 90 degrees!
If only Rush would report my local weather!
[This message has been edited by Clint in Wichita (edited 11-14-2000).]
Cannibal
11-14-2000, 12:24 PM
Well if there is no more legal action or appeals that change this, Bush is the new prez...
gh4chiefs
11-14-2000, 12:27 PM
The judge sez the Sec of State has at her discretion the power to include the hand counts in Dem counties if she wants to. But seeing as how she is also the Bush campaign co-chair, I doubt that she will wish to include votes from the Dem counties. I predict that she'll have no problem including the votes that Bush picked up from handcounts in other counties. So after all the hoopla, its boiled down to inclusuion the Dem votes being at the discretion of the Bush campaign co-chair of Florida.
Cannibal
11-14-2000, 12:27 PM
I anticipate she's going to get that ambassadorship she wanted now...
[This message has been edited by DaWolf (edited 11-14-2000).]
scooter
11-14-2000, 12:44 PM
Any votes counted as of 5:00PM EST should be and will be counted regardless of affiliation. If those Dem counties can't count fast enough then who's problem is that?
This thing has to end somewhere and that is all the 5PM deadline is seeking.
Devin Vierth
11-14-2000, 12:45 PM
UD,
Wouldn't that be overturned so quick on appeal?
------------------
bk
Lurker Brett
11-14-2000, 12:53 PM
UD, yea if there was a Dem Sec of State in Florida we'd keep having recount after recount until the numbers finally work out for Gore.
Cannibal
11-14-2000, 12:56 PM
The thing is that if they say that you can ask for a manual recount if it shows that the result of the recount could affect the outcome, yet turn around and say we're not going to give you enough time to do it, then what is the point? Harris has the ability to include these votes in the tabulation. She doesn't want to...
Lurker Brett
11-14-2000, 01:02 PM
It looked to me from the start that the Gore campaign was calling for manual recounts just to prolong the outcome. They are smart, as long as the game isn't over they have a chance of winning.
The only way I can see manual recounts being fair is to do it for the entire state. All parties knew the pitfalls of the voting machines going in so I don't think any should be done.
redbrian
11-14-2000, 01:14 PM
Bush for 2 years, Gore for 2 years.
I know it won't happen, but it sure would be entertaining!
crazy chiefs fan
11-14-2000, 01:16 PM
Sorry guys,been away for a bit! The 5:00 pm deadlines has been enforced? Great http://63.249.247.210/ubb/biggrin.gif Finally someone has made a decision to get this thing over with! ! week is enough,hand counts are not fair to just 4 counties,but to the whole state,yes,I'm for that.To hand pick a few counties,primarlly Dem's is wrong,but a whole state recount ,I have no problem with!
Looking for the Dem's to try to block this court action now! Just want it over!
Cannibal
11-14-2000, 01:16 PM
Which is why I think the Gore proposal to drop all lawsuits in exchange for a manual recount of all of Florida was the fairest solution. You can go into all counties and do them, get the final number, and go with that, win or lose. And it wouldn't take more than a week longer, just to make sure everything was right. The way it may turn out, there will probably always be doubts as to who actually got more votes in Florida. But Bush benefits if all counts have to be turned in today...
Lurker Brett
11-14-2000, 01:20 PM
Like I said, as long as the game is still on Gore still has a chance to win.
The more the ballots are handled the more inaccurate they become.
Cannibal
11-14-2000, 01:26 PM
Then why did Bush sign a bill in texas saying that the most accurate way to conduct a recount would be a manual recount of the entire state if the more they are handled the less accurate it becomes? The fact is that computer counts in these cases have a pretty significant error rate for an election this close (3-5%) and a manual recount catches the votes that the machine did not get, whoever the canidate was. And you have parties from both sides there to make sure everything is in order.
But you are right, the longer and more accurate the count gets, the more it benefits Gore. Which is why Bush won't go for it. He wants the results he has right now...
crazy chiefs fan
11-14-2000, 01:29 PM
DaWolf
IMHO,as long as the hand count of 4 counties,gore has a edge,but the whole state,I don't feel that way!
crazy chiefs fan
11-14-2000, 01:31 PM
AlGore just went ahead in NM,thought you might want to know,still to close to call!
BigMeatballDave
11-14-2000, 01:33 PM
Did you guys know the democRATS are suing
PALM BEACH County to allow "pregnant" looking "chads" be counted for algore????
I just read this in the most recent USA Today
article.
I heard about the democRATS suing Broward County, but not the PALM Beach Co. What a
bunch of WHINERS and Cheaters.
This goes to show that the hand count ballot are too subjective.
------------------
Chiefs Rock
Cannibal
11-14-2000, 01:35 PM
Roy,
Which is why I feel the whole state getting recounted would be the fairest way. Go to the demo and republican strongholds and see who tallies the most votes. Normally it would not matter, but with a 300 vote difference every single vote a computer misses scanning is important. Take a week longer and get a final definitive count everyone can live with, and move on. But that is a moot point right now...
crazy chiefs fan
11-14-2000, 01:36 PM
This whole election is sad,an ugly mockery of our election process! http://63.249.247.210/ubb/frown.gif http://63.249.247.210/ubb/redface.gif
Cannibal
11-14-2000, 01:40 PM
Henry,
I disagree on it being subjective the way it is being done now, because basically all you are looking for is a candidates whole that has been clearly punched but the little piece of paper is still hanging and thus prevents it from being detected by the computer. And you have people from both sides inspecting the process. But I do agree, including the pregnant chad would not be right, because who knows in that case. Maybe the person caught themselves before they pushed that hole and changed their minds or whatever. I don't think those should be included...
Cannibal
11-14-2000, 01:43 PM
Roy,
I think we can all agree that hopefully this will open peoples' eyes and this sort of thing never happens again. Counties need to run their elections better, the processes used to cast votes need to be updated, ballots should be taken care of and not misplaced, voters need to be aware of their rights and responsibilities, and everyone needs to vote...
Lurker Brett
11-14-2000, 01:48 PM
DaWolf,
I will say this. If Bush does not agree to allowing a manual recount his administration will begin handicapped. The dems are very shrewd when it comes to public sentiment.
He has won the state of Florida fair and square twice and he is still being portrayed as the bad guy. Maybe the dems should be doing PR work for the Chiefs coaching staff.
crazy chiefs fan
11-14-2000, 01:51 PM
DaWolf
A hand count,IMHO is not fair,due to the fact that it is to open to voter fraud! To easy to alter votes either way(paper ballots). I don't trust politians when it come to an election recount!As much as the machines might miss some of the vote,still it is the best way to count them, Even if you have to have 2 recounts.
redbrian
11-14-2000, 01:53 PM
WHY, in this day and age, aren't ALL voting booths identical across the country, with all votes being electronically sent to a secure, central location?
PUNCH CARDS? What a joke.
crazy chiefs fan
11-14-2000, 01:57 PM
DaWolf
Watch this thing unfold,Bush wins the recount total and for some wacky reason,the overseas ballots come back to haunt the Rep's ! What an ending to an ugly mess! Hope it doesn't happen,but it could!
Lurker Brett
11-14-2000, 01:57 PM
I heard a news story about the punch ballots. The ballots and machines that read them were developed in the 60's by IBM.
There have been reports in the past that define the inaccuracy issue but the method and machines are one of the cheapest methods.
No doubt they should be discarded after this.
Cannibal
11-14-2000, 01:57 PM
Roy,
The only problem is that the second machine count proved that the first machine count was significantly off by changing the vote leads from ~1700 to ~300. And the only reason to go to a manual count is if you feel that the 3-5% error rate of the machine will result in any significant change, which in this case it definitely could.
But either way, the decision is in, barring any more legal surprises it looks like we will have a new president elect by friday, and he has 4 years to get something positive done...
crazy chiefs fan
11-14-2000, 02:00 PM
Whoever wins this election,better do a great job,get a very high approval rating towards the next election,doubt that it will happen,but they really need to distance themselves from this election!
Cannibal
11-14-2000, 02:01 PM
Roy,
As wacky as this thing has been, it wouldn't shock me. However, from what I've heard, most of the overseas ballots are in already and are being included with the official count, though I don't know if that updated number has been released. And if the trend was for them to be leaning Gore, I doubt they would want this thing called. But we'll find out soon enough.
Off to lunch I go!
crazy chiefs fan
11-14-2000, 02:03 PM
DaWolf
To be honest here,I don't think you can ever get an acurate count on this vote,no matter how many times you count them,or recount them,or by which method,to many #'s and if you get a couple of #'s close ,go with that!
Coogs
11-14-2000, 02:19 PM
Can you blame them? FIVE judges have recused themselves from the lawsuits in Palm Beach county. There are only 11 TOTAL!!
http://www.cnn.com/2000/LAW/11/14/judges.recuse.pol/
gh4chiefs
11-14-2000, 02:24 PM
The judge said the Bush hac must certify by 5 PM, but he also said she does not have the authority to arbitrarily reject the votes of counties that turn in their votes late. She has to give good reason to reject the votes of counties that turn their stuff in late. Whatever reason she comes up with, the Dems won't like it and....guess what?
Whatever the outcome, it looks bad for the Repubs. Polls show that Americans are more interested in a full count than in expediency. The Repubs are doing whatever they can to prevent a full count. The right to cast your vote and be counted - the cornerstone of American freedom. Now George "Trust the People" Bush is doing everything in his power to take that right away from Floridians. He lost the popular vote, but he might barely sqeeze by in the electoral vote if he can just supress enough of the votes in Dem areas of Florida. He's got his army out full force trying to keep Floridians from exercising their most precious American right. That guy will do anything to take the Whitehouse. Apologies to all Americans who died for our right to vote as this man tramples upon your graves.
alanm
11-14-2000, 02:31 PM
UD-
I am a libertarian and have no love of Republicans, but your post #86 is just crap.
xoxo~
gaz
calling a spade a garden tool.<BR>
Lurker Brett
11-14-2000, 02:33 PM
UD, you are an idiot.
gh4chiefs
11-14-2000, 02:43 PM
Oooo....A re-read of my last post doesn't look too good. Kinda heavy-handed, over-dramatic, and in poor taste. Uh-oh, too late to take that one back....I accept your criticizims, my bad.
Maybe I should say it like this. The Bush camp is being perceived as trying to supress votes by the majority of Americans and abroad. Thats not going to help his presidency.
Lurker Brett
11-14-2000, 02:48 PM
UD, I recant my earlier position.
crazy chiefs fan
11-14-2000, 02:51 PM
duck ?
I'm shocked that you only see 1 side! Either canidate is a gaurenteed loser in this election by winning the White House! Do you honestly feel that the Dem's are playing this election by the book? As fair as can be?
Niether party has expressed the will to set back and see what happens next,both try'n to get the edge! If you think that neither party will not cheat,you are to blind to see it!
This country needs to move on,recounts have been done,votes nullified by whatever reasons that may be,MOVE ON!
I'm am sick of hear'n "THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE" crap that the only way to make it fair is to recount or hand count the whole state,and not declare a winner until you get the same FREAKIN COUNT 2 TIMES!
Of course,this will never happen,cause you can't get the crooks from both sides to leave the votes alone! Hand counts leaves to much room for tampering!I don't want by vote to be handled by someone from another party,only an impartial system and that means machines!
BOTTOM LINE HERE IS......The Dem's will do what they can to recount,recount,recount till the #'s fall in there directions
The Rep's will do want they can do to stop this ! BTW, if the shoe was on the other foot,the Rep's would try to hang on and the Dem's would try to block it!
FURTHERMORE....I don't want to here this crap about the popular vote,my feelings have not changed on that either!
HERE'S TO YOU AND EVERYONE ELSE,HAVE A GOOD DAY! http://63.249.247.210/ubb/biggrin.gif
PS...The veiws of this person does not express the veiws of millins of Americans ! http://63.249.247.210/ubb/smile.gif
ROBHONDA
11-14-2000, 03:39 PM
http://a1508.g.akamai.net/7/1508/1250/f08e9118cf9652/cagle.slate.msn.com/comics/updating/stayskal.gif
ROBHONDA
11-14-2000, 03:41 PM
http://a1508.g.akamai.net/7/1508/1250/9feb4588ad10aa/cagle.slate.msn.com/comics/updating/ritter00.gif
Cannibal
11-14-2000, 03:57 PM
Here is an interesting thought that someone just mentioned: What happens (hypothetically) if the Fla Supreme Court allows these manual recounts to proceed, and when they turn in their updated numbers, the numbers show that Gore has enough votes to win the election, but the Sec of State decides not to accept the numbers at her discretion. This could (hypothetically)become even more tricky than it already is politically...
crazy chiefs fan
11-14-2000, 04:11 PM
DaWolf
This thing is turning into a Pandora's Box!<BR>
gh4chiefs
11-14-2000, 04:34 PM
Here's something intesting - Volusa County is kinda small so it managed to turn in the hand count numbers by the deadline. They were expected to up Gore's score by 24 votes, but after they tallied in the absentee ballots, it went up by 92. The Repubs spent $600,000 to get overseas military folks to send in absentee ballots for Bush, but the Dems had a program to get Floridians living in Israel to send in absentee ballots for Gore/Lieberman. The Lieberman absentee factor from Israel could be the wildcard in this election.
crazy chiefs fan
11-14-2000, 04:35 PM
Uh Oh.....
The Dem's get to continue the hand count and submit it later,still try'n to steal an election!Now I'm believe'n the more time they get the better the chance! http://63.249.247.210/ubb/rolleyes.gif
Now they will come back a week after G W is declared the winner and say they recounted more votes! Then the electors will split and the country will go on like a 3 ring circus! http://63.249.247.210/ubb/redface.gif
Romel
11-14-2000, 04:40 PM
Hey Ugly Duck,
Too bad you're not here in Chicago. Tonight I'm going to see the Chicago Symphony Orchestra play Beethoven's 6th symphony and then see them provide musical backup for the sultry Cabaret star Ute Lemper as she sings Kurt Weill songs. Hubba-hubba!
Nice way to get away from all this election news, huh!
DaKCMan AP
11-14-2000, 04:41 PM
Roy - If I were the lady I would ignore them and tell them that they missed the deadline and about 50 counties.
crazy chiefs fan
11-14-2000, 04:44 PM
Morph
This thing has the never ending story beat !
crazy chiefs fan
11-14-2000, 04:45 PM
I can't wait to see whats next ?
Gracie Dean
11-14-2000, 04:46 PM
RoyC - one of the great imponderables of life
Why was there a sequel to 'The Neverending Story'??
crazy chiefs fan
11-14-2000, 04:47 PM
Bush's lead is now down to 290 vote and dipping! I fully expect the Dem's to come up with another 1000 votes somewhere! http://63.249.247.210/ubb/frown.gif
crazy chiefs fan
11-14-2000, 04:51 PM
Ol Uncle Sam doesn't have an egg on his face,he has a case of eggs on his face!
How many people on this thread think this thing will end before the electrols vote? I bet it goes on longer than that,maybe around Christmas !
AustinChief
11-14-2000, 05:05 PM
Duck - You state " The Repubs are doing whatever they can to prevent a full count."
That is inaccurate.
First of all a full count has already been done, the dems just didnt like the result.
Secondly, the dems only want a full count in a few counties, not the entire state, just enough to get about 400 votes I would say.
Finally, a full count was given an opportunity. The exact same counties with the exact same issues cried out 4 years ago, and the dems ignored them. The county of West Palm Beach has a form designed by a dem, approved by a dem, and approved by a mostly dem community. Why is this only an issue when a dem loses.
mikey23545
11-14-2000, 05:09 PM
Duck-
Those aren't the overseas ballots. Those are absentees from within the country.
Nice try, though.
mikey23545
11-14-2000, 05:11 PM
Duck-
And also, they are already on to the lost ballots in Volusia.
Also: polls according to the AP:
AP National
Presidential Recount Poll
By The Associated Press
The latest national polls on the presidential election and the Florida recount. When results don't total 100 percent, the remainder either didn't know or refused to answer.
If the recount shows that George W. Bush won the state of Florida by a narrow margin giving him a majority in the Electoral College, do you think he will have legitimately won the election or not? (Pew Research Center for People & the Press)
-- Yes, 68 percent
-- No, 27 percent
If the recount shows that George W. Bush won the state of Florida by a narrow margin ... do you think Al Gore should concede the election to George W. Bush or should he contest this in the courts because of voting problems in Florida? (Pew)
-- Concede, 67 percent
-- Contest, 26 percent
<BR>
crazy chiefs fan
11-14-2000, 06:59 PM
300 VOTES TO GO!
Do you think the Dem's can dig up another 300 votes !!!!
Why heck yes,give em time they will come up with about 20000 votes by saturday or monday next week!!
MARK MY WORD!!!
mikey23545
11-14-2000, 07:15 PM
Roy-
There is no question they can "find" 300+ votes.
The question will be whether or not the Secretary of State Katherine Harris will allow them to put those votes forward.
crazy chiefs fan
11-14-2000, 07:23 PM
Some Clown is on CNN now disclaiming here as evil and will not allow the Dem's to win!
mikey23545
11-14-2000, 07:24 PM
Roy-
The politics of personal destruction has already begun. I received a fax earlier today of the talking points the dems sent out trashing her.
Cannibal
11-14-2000, 07:27 PM
If we are going to raise the question as to whether the recount efforts in these democratic counties are fair, I think we can raise the question as to whether the the Secretary of State is going to be fair. Considering her involvement in the Bush campaign and Jeb Bush and what she stands to gain, I think she should have reclused herself from the process too like Jeb did because of the partisan questions that dog her. I mean if we're going to question the fairness of the recounts, I'd think we'd have to question the fairness and objectivity of her being put in a position to ask for valid reasons why the recounts should be tabulated. I suspect it would take an act of God for her to not reject the positions put forth tomorrow by the county canvassing boards. We'll see...
crazy chiefs fan
11-14-2000, 07:29 PM
Michael
I feel that this will get very ugly before it is final!
crazy chiefs fan
11-14-2000, 07:31 PM
Michael
I feel that this will get very ugly before it is final!
mikey23545
11-14-2000, 07:33 PM
Roy-
Democrats are involved on the losing end aren't they?
Whiners.<P>
crazy chiefs fan
11-14-2000, 07:35 PM
DaWolf
This all true,but why is it dif.than the Dem's controlling the hand counts? To quite honest,I've said this many times,you can't get a fair count out of this vote! Only a machine can do so and you have to live with the problems it produces,but get 2 counts that are about the same # of votes to call it!
mikey23545
11-14-2000, 07:36 PM
Da-
Give me a name, whom would you suggest take the gig?
crazy chiefs fan
11-14-2000, 07:39 PM
Michael
There is no one bipartial !
mikey23545
11-14-2000, 07:53 PM
Roy-
Bipartial? Thanks---I needed a laugh. http://63.249.247.210/ubb/smile.gif http://63.249.247.210/ubb/smile.gif
crazy chiefs fan
11-14-2000, 08:10 PM
Michael
Uh Oh...my bad
Anyway gotta shutdown for while,gotta play Football with the son! C YA ! http://63.249.247.210/ubb/smile.gif
[This message has been edited by ROYC75 (edited 11-14-2000).]
mikey23545
11-14-2000, 08:19 PM
Roy-
No need for an apology--I thought it was funny. http://63.249.247.210/ubb/smile.gif
gh4chiefs
11-14-2000, 08:45 PM
55% of Americans say count the people's votes even if it takes a coupla weeks. The Bush hac might have trouble explaining why she certified the handcounts in Republican counties but will refuse to do so for the Demo counties. After the Republican counties have been handcounted and certified, all of a sudden handcounting under Florida law is biased. She'll reject the Demo county handcounts, but you can bet that she'll keep the one's for the party whose campaign she co-chairs.
AustinChief
11-14-2000, 09:27 PM
UD, what poll are you quoting from??
Mosbonian
11-14-2000, 09:35 PM
UD,
If she is such a biased hack, why did she not just out and out reject any late ballot recounts. The court ruling (or more correctly non-ruling) gave her that right in upholding the statute? Seems to me you Dem supporters want to be able to drag this out forever. For the good of the country I believe whether it is Gore or Bush that come the 17th (with time to count the overseas ballot, say the 20th) this thing should be over. Why did the two primary counties drag their feet in the manual recount (for example they did not count on Sunday like Volusia County did). Is it possible gamesmanship in the interpretation of good ballots and waiting for the court decisions caused this problem and delays. I think so. Now they are surprised that the judge did not rule in their favor and are crying foul. Seems like if you want to gamble and waste precious time you have to face the consequences that you incur if the gamble is a loser. Kind of like life, how ironic.
------------------
Jim Reynolds
If I were a Democrat I would surely be a sore loser!
AustinChief
11-14-2000, 09:35 PM
UD, nevermind, I just found it. That extremely reliable source, MSNBC... You left out a few things...
55% said it would be better to wait
56% said the situation will be resolved before it turns into a constitutional crisis
8% said the situation already is a crisis
71% said that once the overseas absentee ballots have been counted and added to the results of the machine recount, a winner should be declared
47% said they approved Gore's campaign
47% said they approved of Bush’s campaign
36% said Bush should be declared the winner now
19% said Gore is the winner
39% said it was too soon to say
Why did you leave all these goodies out?
http://www.msnbc.com/news/489993.asp
[This message has been edited by TheFly (edited 11-14-2000).]
Mosbonian
11-14-2000, 09:37 PM
By the way UD on Monday the 20th it will have been two weeks. So if your professed poll is correct, then the 55% are getting their two weeks.
------------------
Jim Reynolds
If I were a Democrat I would surely be a sore loser!
[This message has been edited by Logical (edited 11-14-2000).]
Cannibal
11-14-2000, 09:50 PM
In regards to who else you get, really I'm not sure, because I don't know all the people in that state. But I would feel more comfortable about a person's objectivity in making a fair assessment on what is a valid reason or not if they had not so actively been involved with one of the candidate's efforts to become president. One thing I will say about the fairness of the recounts vs this is that in the recouns they have representatives from both parties there checking on the validity of the ballots checked. Perhaps a better way to resolve this in the future would be to not put that sort of a decision in one person's hand but on a bipartisan panel's hand involving her position. And who knows, she could surprise me tomorrow by saying the reasons are valid. I get the sense watching some of these news programs that the answer may come from the Florida supreme court in the end, or if you believe Alan Simpson, the US Supreme Court...
gh4chiefs
11-14-2000, 09:58 PM
I saw that poll on CNN. The Bush campaign co-chairperson / Sec of State ordered West Palm Beach County to stay away from the ballots saying a handcount is illegal. The State Attourney General said it is called for by law (just like the Bush counties that handcounted). The county then asked the State Supreme Court who is right, and they don't have an answer yet. So the Bush hac thinks handcounts are only legal for Repub counties, and has certified those votes that picked up 400 votes for Bush (he leads by 300). Tomorrow she'll reject the West Palm Beach handcount and keep the Repub handcount votes, but someone might argue that she's acting arbitrarily. She's hardly a disinterested party and is activly seeking a position in a Bush administration.
Mosbonian
11-14-2000, 09:58 PM
Unless there was a procedural flaw in the way the Judges ruled either in the injunction sought by Bush or for the relief in overturning the statute, neither of those items will ever make a Supreme Court. They might make an appellate court to be thrown out but that would be the end. A clearly written statute will not be overturned. Even the lawyers who have reviewed the statute have said that it was clear and not open for interpretation. Sounds like more wishful thinking on the part of those who want to pursue this until we have a constitutional crisis. The law can be changed but not retroactively, that is a principal that both liberals and conservatives, Democrats and Republicans should all aggree.
------------------
Jim Reynolds
If I were a Democrat I would surely be a sore loser!
Mosbonian
11-14-2000, 10:04 PM
UD,
Sorry, sour grapes again, those counties met the deadline as defined by the statute so their recounts are counted. If the other counties had done the same they would not be in this position. They felt they could flaunt that statute, got their day in court and have lost. I was watching CNN Saturday when the West Palm Beach Dem support and her supervisor stooge made the decision to wait until Monday (and not until 10 am to start the process) to continue their manual recount. They now say they can finish tommorow, yet had they went right back to work they would have met the deadline if that is true. Seems they are responsible not the Sec of State.
------------------
Jim Reynolds
If I were a Democrat I would surely be a sore loser!
[This message has been edited by Logical (edited 11-14-2000).]
mikey23545
11-14-2000, 10:22 PM
Da-
Secretary of State Katherine Harris was elected to her post for this exact situation. (To oversee elections) Perhaps the dems should have tried a little harder to get one of their people in as Secretary of State.
Your level of comfort is not the issue here, the rule of law is.
crazy chiefs fan
11-14-2000, 10:24 PM
Duck..
Not to dispute what you are say'n....I haven't seen any counties yet that Bush has had a hand count that he has asked for ! I could be wrong here,but haven't seen it yet!
crazy chiefs fan
11-14-2000, 10:24 PM
Duck..
Not to dispute what you are say'n....I haven't seen any counties yet that Bush has had a hand count that he has asked for ! I could be wrong here,but haven't seen it yet!
crazy chiefs fan
11-14-2000, 10:25 PM
Sorry guys...my mouse is not wrking properly tonight,didn't mean to double post!
mikey23545
11-14-2000, 10:28 PM
Roy-
You are correct, Bush requsted no recounts.
Romel
11-14-2000, 10:32 PM
Speaking of the rule of law, I wonder if I'm the only person here who feels his confidence in the integrity of the officers and judges whose duty it is to apply the law in Florida has been vindicated. I haven't seen a single decision from the elected or appointed officers or the judges in Florida that I thought was irresponsible or unfair. (I'm not talking about the two campaigns and their flacks and hacks, I mean the secretary of state, the attorney general, the county canvassing committees, and the circuit court judges.)
[This message has been edited by DanT (edited 11-14-2000).]
Cannibal
11-14-2000, 10:38 PM
ROYC,
I saw it mentioned on MSNBC tonight, but I don't recall the details of it other than it was 6 counties. I think they did it on their own and Bush didn't have to ask, or that was the impression I got...
mikey23545
11-14-2000, 11:33 PM
Dan T-
With the exception of Volusia County losing 242 votes from their original count, then blaming it on the Seceratary of State. Then the Palm Beach County changing the "chad" requirement to a light requirement back to a chad requirement in four hours, I'm inclined to agree.
Wonder how many operatives Daley has intercepting mail coming in....But one thing I'm happy with, he sure isn't as good as his Daddy. http://63.249.247.210/ubb/smile.gif<P>
Romel
11-14-2000, 11:39 PM
Michael Michigan,
One of my conservative friends from Europe and I were laughing about the same thing this morning--the Daleys were disgracing the family business http://63.249.247.210/ubb/smile.gif The old man wouldn't have let it get so close!
[This message has been edited by DanT (edited 11-14-2000).]
mikey23545
11-14-2000, 11:50 PM
Dan-
That's quite funny as I had the same conversation with a DC buddy this afternoon. Daley apparently spent the day in DC. My liberal buddy was of the opinion that he was getting "scolded."
You just can't fix elections like you used to. It's all those damn TV cameras. http://63.249.247.210/ubb/smile.gif
AustinChief
11-14-2000, 11:57 PM
It is correct, UD, that there were recounts done in predominantly Republican counties, but the Bush campaign did NOT make any such requests. And when they wanted to, they were told they were past the 72 hour deadline. These counties that did the recounts did it on their own, so please don't lay this on Bush...<BR>
Romel
11-14-2000, 11:59 PM
Hey Michael,
You might already know about it, since you're a connoisseur of good journalism, but in case you don't, you might enjoy the Miami Herald Pulitzer-prize winning investigation of the massive vote fraud that happened in a recent Miami mayorial race. It's available on their website, http://www.miamiherald.com. I've only glanced through it so far, but it looks pretty juicy: I'll probably make time to read more.
mikey23545
11-15-2000, 12:12 AM
Dan-
Thanks, I didn't go to the site yet but remember that and indeed it was an entertaining story. I worked S Fla. in the early 80's and there was a ton of corruption then. I doubt much has changed.
crazy chiefs fan
11-15-2000, 09:03 AM
Now the latest from Florida...in fear of law suits,Katherine Harris has turned over the the responses of the hand count,the 2pm cuttoff to the Fl.Supreme Courts to handle! Another Day of confusion in FLORIDA !
I told you guys,a week ago that this thing is going to get uglier each passing day! http://63.249.247.210/ubb/redface.gif
crazy chiefs fan
11-15-2000, 09:27 AM
Furthermore,a petition has been filed by here to stop all hand counts!
3 ways to look at this...1) She is taking steps to get this thing resolved! 2) she is doing this to block the Dem's from try'n to steal an election . 3) She's a Rep.and will not let the "WILL OF THE PEOPLE " be heard!
All I can say is "STEP RIGHT UP FOLLKS,GET YOUR FREE RIDE ON AMERICA'S MERRY-GO-ROUND" !
[This message has been edited by ROYC75 (edited 11-15-2000).]
gh4chiefs
11-15-2000, 09:45 AM
Bush may not have asked for handcounts in the Repub counties, but the hac accepted and certified tham. Now that the Dems are attempting handcounts, the Repub position is that handcounts are biased. It seems to me that if handcounts are deemed biased, subjective, and thus invalid by the Repubs, then consistancy would suggest that the Repub handcounts are invalid as well. Unless Repubs are honest and Dems are cheaters.
crazy chiefs fan
11-15-2000, 11:43 AM
DUCK
Has it even came to you yet? Why do you think the Dem's are really dragg'n this thing out? When an official count come forward,and a # has been produced with Bush ahead and won Florida.....Then the Dem's know how many votes they can cheat on to win by just a few #'s.On top of all that,anything that hasn't gone there way is grounds for a continuance for the hand counts to be re-counted. This is basic election stealing at it's best! You can find this info from an earlier post by Kurt Suber !
[This message has been edited by ROYC75 (edited 11-15-2000).]
Romel
11-15-2000, 11:49 AM
If hand counts are so unreliable, why are they the standard of last resort in so many places? Does anybody know of any jurisdiction where they aren't the standard of last resort? I'd always heard that they aren't used first because they cost too much money--it's faster to have the machines tally all the different races, even though the machines will have some measurement error.
AustinChief
11-15-2000, 11:53 AM
How's this for more fun?
WEST PALM BEACH, Fla. (AP) - Republicans contend Palm Beach County Commissioner Carol Roberts poked, twisted and manipulated ballots during a Saturday hand recount of four precincts and they are asking her to step down from the election canvassing board.
She said Wednesday she had been ``fair and impartial.''
Roberts approved several ballots displaying only minor indentations while refusing to count ballots with partially punched holes, according to a letter to the canvassing board from Republican lawyer James Higgins.
``The Republicans filed a written request that Ms. Roberts should recuse herself from the board. They are alleging she is biased,'' said County Judge Charles Burton, chairman of the three-member board.
He read a statement from Roberts Wednesday in which she said the ballots were recounted ``in full view of observers from both parties and cameras from all over the world,'' that all questions were decided by the three members of the board and that no complaints were voiced at the time.
The Palm Beach recount was stalled again Wednesday as board members waited for a state court to say which manner of indentations or partial punch-outs should count as votes.
Roberts voted against delaying the count again. Burton and Supervisor of Elections Theresa LePore voted in favor of the delay.
``We decided that we would wait because we need clear direction on what to do,'' Burton said. <P>
crazy chiefs fan
11-15-2000, 11:54 AM
DanT
More elections have been won by cheating in a hand counts! A top Dem.lawyer in California was caught once and testified that he could take an election under 1000 votes and swing it to the other canidate! He has admitted doing so and got caught too! He claims that this is standard practice now in Florida to steal this election!
gh4chiefs
11-15-2000, 12:08 PM
Bush may not have asked for handcounts in the Repub counties, but the hac accepted and certified tham. Now that the Dems are attempting handcounts, the Repub position is that handcounts are biased. It seems to me that if handcounts are deemed biased, subjective, and thus invalid by the Repubs, then consistancy would suggest that the Repub handcounts are invalid as well. Unless Repubs are honest and Dems are cheaters.
Devin Vierth
11-15-2000, 12:10 PM
UD,
I think you are onto something there. http://63.249.247.210/ubb/wink.gif
------------------
Brian K.
"The only thing that saves us from the bureaucracy is inefficiency. An efficient bureaucracy is the greatest threat to liberty."
Eugene McCarthy
Romel
11-15-2000, 12:13 PM
Hey ROYC75,
If you referring to the article that Kurt Surber posted, I read that too. If I recall correctly, a convicted felon who had once been a Republican elected official reported a conversation he had with an unidentified Democratic lawyer. In other words, hearsay from a convicted felon says that handcounts are unreliable.
What I want to know is, are there any places in the United States that anybody here knows about where hand counts are not the legal standard of last resort. I'd heard that Bush himself has signed into Texas Law the hand count standard. I'd expect there would be all kind of hand-wringing about hand-counts coming from partisan parties this week: that's why I'm trying to find out how hand counts were regarded before last week. What does the law say about them; is there anywhere where the law doesn't consider them the standard of last resort, etc? Has anyone seen any newspaper articles to the effect that "we don't use hand counts as the standard of last resort in this locale because they are unreliable." I'd think that there should be some newspaper stories or mainstream magazine articles to that effect if it were true. I'd be interested in any information from the United States or any other industrialized and developed country (e.g. Canada, European nations, Japan, etc.)
Cannibal
11-15-2000, 12:14 PM
Well the bottom line is why would Bush sign a bill in his own state that promotes a process he now cites as arbitrary and inaccurate and unfair?
Another question is why is the guy whose entire message was that he wanted to empower the people and the local governments and let them have control, not government and washington, is now challenging every local government decision that doesn't suit his needs...
Devin Vierth
11-15-2000, 12:19 PM
From what I heard on the talk shows is the bill George W. signed had specific rules to follow in the hand counting process.
We all know by know that the rules were changed in mid-stream in PBC. Who in the he** thinks this is fair for anyone??
------------------
Brian K.
"The only thing that saves us from the bureaucracy is inefficiency. An efficient bureaucracy is the greatest threat to liberty."
Eugene McCarthy
crazy chiefs fan
11-15-2000, 12:25 PM
DanT and DaWolf
I can't argue that with you,feel the same way,all states have hand counts and yes GW did stick a nail in his coffin with the Tx Signing!
IMHO, I feel that hand counts are not fair to either canidate,to open for cheating possibilities and will be danggum glad when they do away with the paper ballots.
Cannibal
11-15-2000, 12:29 PM
BK,
But the entire argument has been that human error comes into play thus making it a less accurate count.
The point about the standards has already been answered in courts, and Bush didn't like the answer. Florida law allows the local governments to decide on standards, and since we're talking democratic local governments that don't favor Bush, Bush wants the state to tell the local government what to do, which I find to be in contradiction to his message of empowering the local governments...
[This message has been edited by DaWolf (edited 11-15-2000).]
crazy chiefs fan
11-15-2000, 12:34 PM
DaWolf
My question to you os this,How long do we let this go on,how many counts,which count is correct,what is the proper procedure ?
An end has to come sometime,I feel the longer it goes,the less accurate the count will be! Paper ballots have more chances to have corrupt results!
Devin Vierth
11-15-2000, 12:35 PM
Wolf,
If standards are set in law or before hand, I don't see a problem with this. But the standards shouldn't be switched in mid-stream. How can someone looking at a piece of paper determine the intent of the voter? Should a "pregnant" chad be counted, I don't think so. But I have no legal ruling authority in the matter.
------------------
Brian K.
"The only thing that saves us from the bureaucracy is inefficiency. An efficient bureaucracy is the greatest threat to liberty."
Eugene McCarthy
ROYC75,DaWolf
Great points. I also feel that this has got to stop! I mean we have had a recount as mandated by Florida law. Enough is enough it's over!
Food for thought:
If either canidate had the balls to to step up and concede the election, weather the were ahead or not, I bet that in 4 years THEY WOULD be president.
No matter who really wins, they will have lost.<P>
redbrian
11-15-2000, 12:39 PM
Is there anyone else that just starts laughing when new "twists and turns" develop in this election?
The whole thing is a joke at this point. IMO the winner will be the one that concedes.
redbrian
11-15-2000, 12:40 PM
double post
[This message has been edited by Clint in Wichita (edited 11-15-2000).]
Damm Clint just when I think you are off your rocker (other thread) you go and agree with me.
http://63.249.247.210/ubb/biggrin.gif
Romel
11-15-2000, 12:47 PM
I just found a cool link. It's the Texas Secretary of State's description of the recount procedures for that state's local elections. Guess what?!, they had enough sense to specify that only one recount can be done per race. I wonder why Florida didn't think of that. Also, it's up to the petitioner to specify whether they want an electronic or a manual recount and, indeed, in case both types are asked for, the manual recount takes precedence. Here's the link:
http://www.sos.state.tx.us/elections/laws/recounts.shtml
Florida should tighten up their laws!
crazy chiefs fan
11-15-2000, 12:47 PM
I agree JOhn....Clint has the natural ability to keep all of us confused ! http://63.249.247.210/ubb/confused.gif
Thats OK Clint,we like ya,go Chiefs ! http://63.249.247.210/ubb/biggrin.gif
Lurker Brett
11-15-2000, 12:51 PM
What a surprise, Broward County Florida reversed it's earlier decision and will after all proceed with a manual re-count.
Election officials in the county had previously voted not to proceed with the manual recount but the Gore campaign went to court to try and force the recount.
So much for letting the counties decide.
crazy chiefs fan
11-15-2000, 01:00 PM
Anyone feel that if we added a few other people into this that we could get a #1 rated soap opera show out of it? http://63.249.247.210/ubb/rolleyes.gif
When is this thing going to end? http://63.249.247.210/ubb/frown.gif
Mark M [BornChiefs]
11-15-2000, 01:19 PM
Roy,
we've already got bill and billary, and slick willi's cigar stunts...sex, scandle, murder, lying, cheating stealing, adultry, power people, lawyers...it really does sound like a soap opra...
GW, and algore just need to change their names to Dirk and Kane or something...it would be perfect.
Cannibal
11-15-2000, 01:20 PM
Yeah I agree, Florida laws are screwed up and need to be clarified so this sort of stuff never happens again. As it stands right now we are trying to determine the law through courts as we go along, which makes it messy.
I also agree that whoever steps aside would have a very good shot at it in 4 years, because whichever party loses is going to be very angry that they got cheated and use that as motivation.
But I do find it interesting that Bush is going to an Atlanta federal court to get a ruling on what is going on locally in Florida...
redbrian
11-15-2000, 01:21 PM
Al Gore's daughters should play a significant role.
crazy chiefs fan
11-15-2000, 01:27 PM
DaWolf
Ity is a sad time in American politics! http://63.249.247.210/ubb/frown.gif
And politians want to know why we don't like them ? http://63.249.247.210/ubb/confused.gif
Bet Tom Osborne is wonder'n why he got himself into all this mess ! http://63.249.247.210/ubb/smile.gif
Cannibal
11-15-2000, 01:33 PM
LOL. Wonder what is worse, the mess Osborne got into, or the mess Solich has on his hands. I know some Nebraska fans that are not at all happy with him...
Romel
11-15-2000, 02:47 PM
On a recent cross-country trip, I spent a night in Grand Island, Nebraska, which is in Tom Osbourne's Congressional district. Stayed in a hotel on Tom Osbourne Expressway, as a matter of fact. Boy, talk about a shoe-in. When a major road is named after you and you haven't even held political office yet, how could you not win?! He ended up with 82% of the vote for the 3rd Congressional District.
Lurker Brett
11-15-2000, 02:51 PM
Imagine running against him....any verbal attack could mean an instantaneous tar and feathering.
Romel
11-15-2000, 02:58 PM
Nebraska was absolutely beautiful. The grasslands are gorgeous in Autumn. I enjoyed that part of the trip down I-80 a lot more than the overrated wilderness in Utah and Nevada. I can see why the military has bombing ranges in Nevada; someone should bomb the hell out of that desolate crap. http://63.249.247.210/ubb/wink.gif
DaKCMan AP
11-15-2000, 03:15 PM
Dan - You didn't think i-80 was desolate compared to Nevada? Now I know I should never drive through Nevada, because I-80 is about as exciting as watching rust form on a Ford, in other words at least it goes pretty quickly.
Lurker Brett
11-15-2000, 03:22 PM
LOL, that's a new one on the board, I don't think I have ever seen trucks argued.
DaKCMan AP
11-15-2000, 03:57 PM
Lyon - I had to come up with something better then the tired old expressions like, watching grass grow and watching paint dry. Plus it seems to take just as long to get across Iowa at their slower then moped speed limit of 65, as it does the 75 speed limit that the longer state NE has.
Lurker Brett
11-15-2000, 03:58 PM
I agree, anything less then 75 is insane.
crazy chiefs fan
11-15-2000, 04:45 PM
Today,Florida Supreme Court denies the petition to stop all hand counts and the Law suits will be handled in local courts! The State of Florida wants nothing to do with there problem,thus sending all legal matters to the Federal courts in Atlanta!
And so Americans ,ends another day of the bizzar twist on "HOW NOT TO ELECT THE PRESIDENT OF THE USA" !
We now send you back to your local postings!
NO END IN SIGHT YET! http://63.249.247.210/ubb/rolleyes.gif
[This message has been edited by ROYC75 (edited 11-15-2000).]
Cannibal
11-15-2000, 08:24 PM
Well, GW's buddy Harris just assured us of even more court hearings tomorrow...
DaKCMan AP
11-15-2000, 08:55 PM
Harris did the job and blocked denied the requests for hand counts in the three counties because they were unable to show Fraud or Corruption in those 3 counties.
Cannibal
11-15-2000, 09:04 PM
Well I suppose the courts will decide whether the criteria she used were legit or not...
AustinChief
11-15-2000, 10:03 PM
I hate to say this, but I know of someone who is having a really big snit right now because of Katherine Harris.<BR>
Cannibal
11-15-2000, 11:07 PM
Mrs Gannon?
http://63.249.247.210/ubb/wink.gif
milkman
11-16-2000, 12:19 AM
Mrs. Gannon? She wishes. If not for that pesky restraining order....
I'm still watching this crap, although I'm about done for the evening. I hope the Secretary's ruling holds up, and believe it should. The Dems have already had their friggin recount. I belive any further recount, legitimate or otherwise (and probably otherwise) will favor Gore. Nobody can throw an election quite like a Democrat.
However, this may all be academic. There is a strong chance that the Israeli absentee vote, which will certainly favor the Lieberman ticket, will cancel out or exceed the pro-Republican vote of the military.
Of course, if we're lucky, maybe these people are related to the Palm Beach County morons. If this is the case, they'll likely screw up their ballots, forget to put postage on the envelopes, and then mail them all off to Brazil.
I must confess, though, that I've got that same sinking feeling I used to get when the Chiefs were up on Denver by 4 points with two minutes to go and Elway had the ball. Hope I'm wrong....
[This message has been edited by frazod (edited 11-16-2000).]
Cannibal
11-16-2000, 12:25 AM
LOL frazod,
http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0046/elect4.shtml
According to this, there may not be enough absentee ballots to even make a difference...
milkman
11-16-2000, 12:41 AM
Wolf, they were saying on MSNBC earlier that they expected the absentee turnout to be upwards of 5,000. But who knows? This is starting to eat my brain. I'm considering raiding the medicine cabinet, chugging enough NyQuil to induce coma, and then when I regain consciousness a week from now, hopefully someone can tell me WHO REALLY, FINALLY WON THE F#CKING THING!
I'm outta here. Between the O'Rourke war and the election, I feel like I've been living in front of the computer and/or television lately. Tonight I think I'll get some sleep, and perhaps tomorrow I'll read a book, go for a walk or perhaps just mindlessly stare off into space.
...but I'll probably be right back here. I may not be King No Life, but I feel I'm in the running for, perhaps, Baron No Life. Let's take a vote - no hand counting, though.
Goodnight.
Cannibal
11-16-2000, 12:47 AM
Democracy is beautiful.
G'night...
Cannibal
11-16-2000, 01:22 AM
BTW, this is interesting. Apparently, according to the LA Times, "16 of Florida's 67 counties failed to recount every ballot cast in the election. Some counties simply checked their computer vote tallies. Others just electronically re-scanned their absentee ballots. Some examined ballots in only a portion of their precincts."
I thought Baker said that computer recounts are the fairest and most accurate and efficient way to recount all the votes. This seems to put that in question, since there is no uniform method used to recount all the votes by computer, and some counties didn't even bother to rerun the ballots through the computer.
So that solution is better and more accurate than a uniform manual recount across the state?
http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/decision2000/lat_ballots001115.htm
gh4chiefs
11-16-2000, 01:46 AM
I don't get how people can say that handcounts are less accurate than machine counts. A machine can only read a ballot with the hole clear. The punched but not clear-holed ballots will not be read. Imagine that you ran 100,000 ballots through a machine, and the machine didn't count 10,000 of them. 90,000 votes is the best the machine can detect. Any vote that you salvage from the stack of 10,000 unread ballots is an improvement over the machine count. A human would have to mis-read over half of the 10,000 to make the final count less accurate than the machine count. But 99% of the unread ballots are so obvious that all three (Dem and Repub) readers agree immediately. The 1% goes into a stack that gets argued about, squinted at, and makes dramatic news footage. But the obvious 99% improves the final count from 90,000 to 99,900. Thats why all across Florida and America people use humans to pick up the uncounted votes. That is, everywhere except the Dem counties in Florida. Handcounts have suddenly become invalid in the Dem counties.
Cannibal
11-16-2000, 02:04 AM
Duck,
I just saw a video of I believe Phil Grahm, and he was holding a ballot to his head like he was Johnny Carson's Carmack, closing his eyes, and he said, "Well let me see, this person punched their ballot for Bush, but let's count it for Gore" as if that is how the process is done. I am sick of these guys trying to insult my intelligence. It is a very easy process, all you have to do is see who the punch is for, and show it to the officials who are there, democrat and republican, and when they agree it is counted as a vote. Even computer scientists have said that these machine counts introduce at least 3-5% rates of error, and in elections like these that stat is significant. Again, I refer to the old scantrons we used to use in school, where if a hole was inadvertadly not completely filled, or vice versa the mark exceeded a bit out of the little circle, the computer scanner could mark it as wrong. So the most accurate way to get my score would be to go back and manually examine it and if I filled in the right answer, award me with the points.
It's funny, one of the people actually went back and manually reprogrammed their computer according to this report to conduuct the computer recount. So we can't trust people to count ballots with their own eyes, but we can trust individuals to reprogram computers (there's an error free process) to conduct a recount...
Mosbonian
11-16-2000, 02:32 AM
UD and Dawolf.
Have you ever see 100,000 of anything, let alone 6 million. Now have you ever looked at 100s of thousands of approximately .125 inch by .15 inch rectangles to determine if anything less than the entire hole is present. Now add to that you are going to check to see if either three or two corner strands are or are not broken, oh yeah one Dem wants dimpled squares to be counted. Yeah I guarantee that humans are going to be more accurate than machines. Obvious to any engineer is that the reliability and accuracy of machines far exceeds that of humans when immense (millions) of repetitive actions must occur. Finally UD you are a Californian (I believe) so odds are you have at one time or another used the exact same type of punch card. Was it hard to punch out the holes, was it difficult to turn the card over to see the tabs had come off. Is there a chance you started to press on a tab realized it was a wrong one and then punched out the correct one. In Florida evidently it is too hard to accomplish the simple tasks, but yet it is easy to divine a voters intention from dimpled tabs and do it accurately for millions of ballots. I believe you two need to rethink this human accuracy belief. As an engineer I am always amused when technophobes and those not inclined towards trusting automation prefer human intervention in situations where 100s of thousands or more of repetitive actions are required. Review studies on what happens when humans are asked to perform just 1000s of repetitive tasks. They intentionally make up counts, skip steps, let some items just pass them by so as to gain relief. It is not laziness, it is a built in mechanism for stress avoidance. Most report they did not even know they were doing it when confronted with hidden camera evidence. They are either telling the truth or are to ashamed to admit that they could not handle such a onerous task.
Yet you two would have 6 million or at least 1 million votes handcounted. Your faith in humans to avoid error is amusing.
[This message has been edited by Logical (edited 11-16-2000).]
Cannibal
11-16-2000, 03:05 AM
Logical,
Which is a fairer assessment, a uniform handcount of the state, or an arbitrary machine count where some counties didn't even run their ballots again, chose which ballots to run in a few occasions, reprogrammed their computer to run ballots, just rechecked the computation of the tabulations from the previous count, etc?
Look, no process is 100% accurate. But to try and make this hand count sound like rocket science is ludicrous. All you are looking for is whether a punch was made or not. There may be a very few minority of ballots with the"pregnant" chad or whatever that would have to be judgement calls, I don't think those should be included but the judge said they could. Nevertheless, you have a lot of people working on these, and while repetetive, it's not exactly hard to do, because all you are looking for is whether or not a hole was punched. We're not looking for multiple holes, we're looking for a single hole for a single candidate. And again, if Bush feels this is an unfair, biased, and error filled process, why does he sign a law stating that statewide hand recounts are the way to go in Texas when a recount is needed? I work in silicon valley, so I have no fear of computers. But it's not the computers, it is what the computers are fed and asked to do. If there is even the slightest discrepancy, even though the vote to the naked eye is clear, the computer scanner may not record it. There is no way I can sit here and say that the methods used across the state for the computer recounts were not subjective and prone to error. When there are no uniform standards, and the methods some of the counties used, I think you are introducing a lot more uncertainty in the process than is being indicated...
Cannibal
11-16-2000, 03:08 AM
LOL. Speaking of computer problems, I had to edit my message down to fit the allowed text size, and when I click post I get:
"NOTICE! This request and your user data were logged as a hack attempt. Authorities will be alerted if you persist.
If you believe this to be an error please contact admins@ChiefsPlanet.com to say there may be corrupt data files in Forum 1."
Goody! I am now a hacker! http://63.249.247.210/ubb/biggrin.gif
Mosbonian
11-16-2000, 03:19 AM
Sorry dude, any machine count of this number is going to be vastly more accurate and preferable. Machines do not have preferences, machines do not get tired of looking over and over again. And yes a computer recert is preferable to a handcount. Anything is preferable to a handcount. I do not trust humans to do this right for at least a dozen reasons. Human error only makes up the top 2. In additon humans unfortunately have preferences and they will use them to justify an end. Many humans are just plain dishonest. Humans will avoid stress through shortcuts. Humans are lazy. Humans are naturally disposed to make honest mistakes that fit their preconceived notion of what is right and wrong. Machines do none of these.
Finally the election ballot was designed to be tabulated by machines, not humans, trust me if humans were meant to count these the tabs would have been at least 1" by 1" inch squares and only one race per ballot would have been allowed. There would have been several ballots for each different race and issue in the state.
------------------
Jim Reynolds
If I were a Democrat I would surely be a sore loser!
[This message has been edited by Logical (edited 11-16-2000).]
Mosbonian
11-16-2000, 03:21 AM
Dawolf,
I think this is a problem tonight with MS Explorer, I was having similar problems, switched over to Netscape and no more problem.
Cannibal
11-16-2000, 03:31 AM
I would agree with you if the situation with the computer count was:
1)There was a uniform recount standard and all ballots were recounted through the same method and system.
2)The ballot was designed in a way to minimize to the fullest extent possible the amount of error resulting from misscans.
3)We had a uniform ballot type to be recounted that met these standards.
That is not the impression I got from this statewide computer recount, which is why I think there is a question as to how fair and accurate it really was.
I think we can agree at least that they need to work on updating their voting system and equipmwnt big time before the next election...
Cannibal
11-16-2000, 03:36 AM
Jim,
Thanks. I'll use Netscape next time I log on (damn you IE!). I'm gonna hit the sack right now though. Talk to y'all tomorrow...<BR>
AustinChief
11-16-2000, 06:28 AM
The beat continues.......
Looks like this all may be finalized by 11:00 pm tomorrow. Gore needs to think for the good of his party instead of his own personal gain at this point.
While I find his proposal to meet with Gov Bush interesting at this point, I see nothing that it would solve. Seems to me it would only open opportunity for insiders to leak more information.
I found out something interesting yesterday..... every single man who has run for President and lost by less than 5% of the vote (or even won the popular but lost the electoral) has run again and won - every single time. IF Gore continues in the vein of a spoiled child who threatens to take his ball and go home, he may be the first to break this pattern.
Devin Vierth
11-16-2000, 06:43 AM
This is why we don't a recount by hand in Florida. What happens if ballots magically appear? With people like this running around, I sure hope the ballots we kept under lock and key.
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/politics/DailyNews/florida_votamatic_001115.html
------------------
Brian K.
Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example.
Mark Twain
gh4chiefs
11-16-2000, 10:18 AM
No, no, guys. Handcounts ARE the way they check close results in Florida. Many of the counties have completed handcounts and THOSE are the numbers certified by the Sec. Handcounts have been the normal way to resolve machine undercounts until now. Now that handcounts are underway in Dem counties, we are to believe that they are less accurate. But many have already been accepted as MORE accurate by the hac. That's why her decision will be ruled arbitrary by the court. And check out the principles in my previous post. The only way a handcount can make the total less accurate is if the humans misread over half of the ballots that the machine missed. And 99% are obvious and immediately agreed to by the bipartisan team. The selective handcount admonition is a desparate measure to keep valid Dem votes out of the mix.
crazy chiefs fan
11-16-2000, 10:23 AM
The whole problem with a hand count is the honesty of the examiner! Can you trust that person to be fair and equal,regaurdless of what party they are afilliated with! There is a lot of honest people as much as dihonest people and when you come to politics and your canidate is winning by a few or losing by a few,can that person be trusted with the count!
If I'm a politician,NOT ME, Most Americans don't like Politicans to start with! http://63.249.247.210/ubb/smile.gif
Raiderhater
11-16-2000, 10:26 AM
UD: Besides the 4 currently hand counting, how many other counties hand counted? I had never heard this news before that many other counties hand counted.
AustinChief
11-16-2000, 10:33 AM
According to FoxNews last night, the hand counts in OTHER Florida counties was a rumor spread by the Democratic party and it simply did not occur. No other county, others than those already reported, have done hand counts. Other counties did do machine recounts, but there were NO hand recounts.<P>
Devin Vierth
11-16-2000, 10:33 AM
UD,
I guess this is okay if this happens.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/default-20001116225829.htm
------------------
Brian K.
Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example.
Mark Twain
Fan_in_Alabama
11-16-2000, 10:36 AM
Handcounts are to be used if there is trouble with the machines, if they are malfunctioning.
The only malfunction seems to be that Gore thinks he should have more votes than Bush.
If machines are so unreliable why are they in our hospitals keepiing people alive, in space protecting our Astronauts, Airplanes telling our pilots how fast they are moving and how high they are. Why are they in our cars to deploy airbags, so involved in our military protecting our soldiers.
They even grade our SAT scores for college.
Sorry I'm pretty sure if they can do all that they can figure out 1 hole punched for Gore equals one vote for Gore and one hold punched for Bush equals one vote for Bush.
This is the same tactic used in the OJ trial. If the evidence gives results that you don't like say it is unreliable. Attack people in charge of the ev.
Does anyone really think that a person is more reliable that a computer to do a simple task such as keeping a running tally?
Devin Vierth
11-16-2000, 10:43 AM
Chieffan,
Have you ever heard the term 'Garbage in Garbage out' or the 'weakest link in the chain'?
The problem lies where the humans are involved. If the 'chad' isn't punched out totally, the machine may miss it.
I believe it all falls back to the voters taking responsibilty and fufilling the civic duty and voting in accordance with the instructions.
------------------
Brian K.
Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example.
Mark Twain
gh4chiefs
11-16-2000, 10:46 AM
Most of America uses handcounts to resolve machine undercounts. This is a very oportune moment for the Repubs to suddenly assert that they are less accurate than a machine count. The country has been stupid about it until this moment, and now all of a sudden the rules should be changed while counts are still going on. I don't buy it.
Now the Repubs on the hill are setting up Plan B. They're complaining that Repubs in Florida were tricked into not going to the polls because they thought Gore had already won the state. They'd better be careful because if the Florida election has too many problems its electoral votes may be deemed invalid. If that happens, Gore wins.
Raiderhater
11-16-2000, 10:54 AM
UD: What other counties performed hand counts and had them certified by the Sec. of State in FL?
You said 'many', I would like to know which ones?
crazy chiefs fan
11-16-2000, 10:57 AM
Post #206 confirms post #203 !
Can they be trusted ? "NO WAY " nobody can be !
crazy chiefs fan
11-16-2000, 11:01 AM
Duck
If someone in wstrn Florida didn't vote cause the State had done been announced by the media,ignorant voters in Florida that voted for 2 people or didn't vote properly should not be heard from either!
Bottom line,they had a chance to vote,thet blew it!
[This message has been edited by ROYC75 (edited 11-16-2000).]
[This message has been edited by ROYC75 (edited 11-16-2000).]
Lurker Brett
11-16-2000, 11:07 AM
If anyone thinks a manual recount of 1 million votes is more accurate then a machine count of the same votes I have a used car for sale.
I wonder how many times these ballots can be handled before wear and tear causes a ballot to be misread.
Cannibal
11-16-2000, 11:25 AM
Did you guys even read the article? How can the machine count in this instance be more fair and accurate if 16 of 67 counties didn't even run any or all ballots through the computers again, there were counties who chose what to recount, there were counties reporgramming their computer, etc.
The report about the Roberts lady only shows that if there is someone who is trying to manipulate the count, there are observers and they will not get away with it...
AustinChief
11-16-2000, 11:31 AM
No, no, and no. You are wrong on this one. All ballots that would and could be run were run through the automated process. Only those ballots that were DAMAGED were reviewed by hand and then attempted AGAIN to put them through the automated process. EVERY effort was made to count all the ballots.
A ballot that is damaged by the voter or inadvertent handling in transit, boxed with thousands of other ballots, is NOT fraud or corruption.
Cannibal
11-16-2000, 11:50 AM
"16 of Florida's 67 counties failed to recount every ballot cast in the election. Some counties simply checked their computer vote tallies. Others just electronically re-scanned their absentee ballots. Some examined ballots in only a portion of their precincts."
"When the call came from Tallahassee for every county in Florida to recount presidential ballots the day after last week's historic vote, Baker County elections supervisor John Barton and his local canvassing board took the easy way out.
They simply checked the electronic memory of their computers, running the numbers again to see if they matched the results from the day before. Not a single ballot was re-scanned or inspected."
"counties varied widely in the processes they used to recount ballots. "
"Some counties simply checked their computer vote tallies. Others just electronically re-scanned their absentee ballots. Some examined ballots in only a portion of their precincts."
In the article you have some boards saying a recount means a recount, and you have to scan your data again despite your faith in your system. But in other places you have people saying they don't have to or want to rescan their ballots even if they could be. So unless I am misreading the article, all ballots that could and would be run were not run through the automated process a second time...
AustinChief
11-16-2000, 12:11 PM
Who is the reputable source for your article?
Cannibal
11-16-2000, 12:14 PM
LA Times. Again, it is linked below in my original post on this topic...
Raiderhater
11-16-2000, 12:28 PM
11 of those 16 counties voted Bush. There's no reason to recount those otherwise Bush's lead might actually increase.
AustinChief
11-16-2000, 12:31 PM
Ah, yes. The LA Times. That paragon of virtue and slanted reporting. This article flies in the face of what is being reported by FoxNews and the Florida Secretary of State... Wonder who I'm gonna believe now...
I read the LA Times a few times a week since I live out here too. Usually at lunch. It's very entertaining!
[This message has been edited by TheFly (edited 11-16-2000).]
Cannibal
11-16-2000, 12:38 PM
Fly,
LOL. So they are lying. Even if they are quoting county officials. How convenient. We could also question the credibility of the two "unbiased" sources you cite for the other side.
Titus,
It could go both ways. Bush may increase his lead, or Gore may pick up votes that were not counted the first time...
[This message has been edited by DaWolf (edited 11-16-2000).]
Raiderhater
11-16-2000, 12:59 PM
Wolf: that was funny...so it's a conspiracy even in the counties where Bush was the victor that Gore votes werent counted? Cmon.
AustinChief
11-16-2000, 01:01 PM
The Times is NOT beneath only presenting partial facts and half-truths... It has happened very often...
The law is the law... get over it...
[This message has been edited by TheFly (edited 11-16-2000).]
AustinChief
11-16-2000, 01:40 PM
According to MSNBC, another paragon of virtue, Bush has a substantial lead in Florida's absentee ballots...
http://www.msnbc.com/news/490739.asp
Cannibal
11-16-2000, 01:47 PM
You're missing my point. I never said it was a conspiracy. I just questioned the ability to have the accuracy of the recount that had been professed before based on these differing standards...
Raiderhater
11-16-2000, 01:51 PM
Wolf: No. You didnt say it was a conspiracy, but your post read funny as if to say, if they actually recounted Gore would pick up votes because they werent counted the first time.
I would hazard a guess that in the heavily Bush counties that the possibility of Bush votes going uncounted would be more likely since the majority in that county voted for Bush.
As far as the 'differing' standards are concerned, you can lay that at the feet of vague Florida law. Also, I tend to believe that you could re-count all the ballots a dozen times and get a dozen different results.
AustinChief
11-16-2000, 01:53 PM
The BIG problem here is there are NO standards for hand recounts. One person looks for light to shine through the hole, another tries to see if the punch is indented enough to count for a vote, etc etc etc... The counties have NO standards for hand recounts and as such the right to uniform due process (14th amendment) is being violated...
That's why I'm a stickler about rules and following law. If it ain't written down then there's lots of opportunity for mischief...<BR>
Cannibal
11-16-2000, 02:32 PM
Titus,
That may be your interpretation of what I said. But I am not questioning the legality, I am not questioning conspiracy, all I am saying is that if you do a computer recount as described across the state, I do not think that it would lead one to conclude that this computer recount is as accurate and reliable as is being suggested by some. I also said that if you did do every ballot, that you could argue in either direction, either Bush picks up more or Gore picks up more, but the only way to find out is to do a uniform recount with set standards of all the ballots. And to me that applies to manual recounts too. If that were to happen, the fairest way to do it would be to have a uniform recount of all ballots with set standards from the supreme court.
But whatever happens, the law is the law and we'll find out soon enough from these court cases where we stand...
Gracie Dean
11-16-2000, 02:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Helvetica, verdana, ariel">quote:</font><HR>That may be your interpretation of what I said. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
DaWolf - I didn't check to see what that remark was in refence to, but thanks for the trip down memory lane. Squiggle. Hee hee.
Raiderhater
11-16-2000, 02:43 PM
Wolf: If you look at the certified election broken down by county. The majority of Gore's gains come in heavily democratic counties--the same ones that are NOW recounting a 3rd time. Gore won those elections handily. I ask you, if Gore won your county by a wide margin and IF after recounting picked up additional votes by a substantial number, why the need to re-count a 3rd time?
I think the answer is clear. Pinellas, Volusia, Dade and Palm Beach...Those counties after their second count of votes got close, but not enough to give Gore the victory. Im pretty sure that's why they're counting again.
I should also add, that I do believe that the outcome will be changed in Gore's favor out of the Palm Beach County hand count. They have delayed and waited and are getting a judge to rule that the Sec. of State must accept their manual recount. This then forces the Sec. of States hand and gives Gore the win. PBC's election supervisor has already been accused of tampering with ballots by observers.
[This message has been edited by KCTitus (edited 11-16-2000).]
Cannibal
11-16-2000, 02:59 PM
Johnny,
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!! http://63.249.247.210/ubb/eek.gif Crap, I shoulda checked myself when I said that. Now I am really in dubious company. I feel embarassed and ashamed. http://63.249.247.210/ubb/redface.gif http://63.249.247.210/ubb/smile.gif
Titus,
You know, I've heard so many arguments about this from both sides, my position right now is let us see what the courts say today or tomorrow, and that's the law. You could argue that it is biased, you could argue that both sides are allowed to pick a certain number of counties and ask for recounts, there was a guy last night on CNN saying that the recount had shown that Gore in almost every case had picked up more votes across the counties, etc. I love arguing devil's perspective, but these questions right now are being weight by the courts, and their final judgement will indicate the law. So I'm going to give up trying to interpret what the law is, because it sure as heck seems to mean a lot of different things to a lot of different people so far, if you know what I mean... http://63.249.247.210/ubb/wink.gif
Cannibal
11-16-2000, 03:01 PM
BTW, in the same regard as I think it probably would have been better for Harris to step aside given her heavy involvement in the Bush campaign during the election, I think this wacko lady from PBC should also have stepped aside long ago...
Raiderhater
11-16-2000, 03:03 PM
Wolf: you wont get any argument from me on that. All Im saying is if the judge in this case forces the Sec. of States hand and forces her to accept the manual re-counts from Palm Beach, specifically, Im positive they will 'find' enough votes to turn the election.
crazy chiefs fan
11-16-2000, 03:10 PM
I need someone to help me understand this quote...here it is again....READY.....
" THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE ". Now Gore is stating "THE TRUE WILL OF THE PEOPLE" !
Can he not see that he can't continue to swing an election his way ! He acts as if this election is a fraud! The more you handle the ballots,less likely to get an accurate count! Now he is try'n to call a state wide re-count? He has lost this election and try'n anything to swing it,think'n that this is "THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE" ! Right Al,the country wants to swing it your way! The way people in Florida vote scares me to think what kind of # they could get with a statewide recount!
Simply put, BIGT AL HAS LOST AND IS BEGG'N FOR THE COUNTRY TO HELP HIM WIN IT CAUSE HE MIGHT WIN THE POPULAR VOTE!
SHOULD HAVE WON HIS OWN STATE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!<P>
Fat Homer
11-16-2000, 03:16 PM
Roy - the sad thing is, the media & the 'ignorance of the people' are feeding this whole debacle! algore & his band of merry lawyers are doing their best to find loopholes - to sue for the presidency - to attack and defame anyone who attempts to uphold the law. They are trying to STEAL THE ELECTION; yet very few seem to be 'up in arms' about it.
Cannibal
11-16-2000, 03:19 PM
Titus,
To be honest, I'm still doubtful of that. Who knows, he may only pick up a couple of hundred votes and still fall short. After the absentee ballots, if some of these projections are right (and I will never again believe projections) he would need to pick up at least 600 votes. Now maybe the argument is that 19 votes times 100% equals 1900 votes, but we all know that that is not a statistically valid argument, and the rest of these districts may have significantly fewer votes than those 4 "anomolous" districts.
They just reported that a military and a civilian plane have collided over Sarasota. This does not sound good. I hope for the best. Man I'm getting more afraid to step into a plane every day...
AustinChief
11-16-2000, 03:55 PM
I think they should throw out the whole state of Florida, maybe even give it to Cuba, and then make Bush and Gore sit down at a poker table for a game of 5-card-stud... Winner takes all!
http://63.249.247.210/ubb/eek.gif<BR>
crazy chiefs fan
11-16-2000, 04:07 PM
The End Was Insight,now a judge,SUPREME COURT in Florida has allowed the hand counts to continue! MUST HAVE BEEN A DEM. http://63.249.247.210/ubb/biggrin.gif
AGAIN.... No End insight! http://63.249.247.210/ubb/redface.gif
Cannibal
11-16-2000, 04:23 PM
ROYC,
The whole ball of wax comes down to the appeal from tomorrow's ruling (I guess he is going to rule tomorrow) on Harris' decision. All this ruling told us is that the counties are allowed by law to continue their manual recounts. It did not tell us whether they will be accepted or not yet. And according to the news report I heard, this ruling was in accordance with another ruling they came to a few years ago in a nonpartisan dispute, so apparently there was precedence set by them before regarding this specific ruling.
If I'm a Bush supporter I don't sweat it yet. The numbers they pick up in these recounts could well wind up being below the number they will actually need in the end to beat out the overseas ballots. They would have to pick up I would imagine at least 600 votes, and IMO that could be statistically hard to do, because once you move out of these statistically significant preciencts, the % of votes you pick up become s less.
Like someone said last night, it's like the end of the game and you are leading, but the other QB is driving. It may look bad, but you'd still rather have the lead and take your chances than be behind...
Raiderhater
11-16-2000, 04:43 PM
Wolf: I got a good chuckle out of your analogy...As a Chief fan, surely you know that when the QB is driving, it doesnt look good for your team (Elway).
KCWolfman
11-16-2000, 04:47 PM
KCTitus, that made me feel so much better. http://63.249.247.210/ubb/frown.gif
------------------
WILDCATS 29
corn balls 28
AustinChief
11-16-2000, 05:22 PM
The Florida Supreme Court is interesting in what it did not say... It said the hand counts can continue... It did NOT say they would be CERTIFIED or included beyond the statutory deadline... This one is gonna come down to the wire... inch-by-inch, step-by-step... Niagara Falls... http://63.249.247.210/ubb/tongue.gif
mikey23545
11-16-2000, 05:25 PM
Florida Supreme Court is 7 dems.
Unfortunately for the libs, 11th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in Atlanta is 7 republicans, 5 dems.
Cannibal
11-16-2000, 06:49 PM
I do find it ironic though that the republicans are going to federal court and asking them to basically rule on a state matter...
gh4chiefs
11-16-2000, 11:09 PM
Uh-oh....the Repubs have come up with a new plan. They must not like that the Florida Supreme Court seems to lean towards counting all the votes. Now they've dug up some law from the 1800's that may help them. The Bush campaign has already talked to their cohorts on the Hill about this. Apparently, Congress can declare electoral votes invalid. Then all they need is a simple majority in both houses to pick who they want to be President. Now THATS hardball! Forget about refusing to count Florida's voters, they say they can refuse to look at the entire country's voters and just pick someone. President Newt Gingrich, President Dick Armey, President Orin Hatch. Boy, that would REALLY pi$$ off Jesse Jackson.
Clint in Wichita
11-16-2000, 11:44 PM
Duck, face it..Bush won!
keep counting til you are happy, but personally I prefer machines to these pro-dem canvaseers. Any questionable vote declared during the re-count goes to the three person democratic canvassing comitee to decide voter intent.
Three democrats deciding any questionable votes!
Duck, that's like letting the Chief fans review any Raider instant replays!
It's a waste of time...If anyone should concede it's Gore after all he already lost twice....Joe
P.S. You are cool , but the Raiders suck!... http://63.249.247.210/ubb/smile.gifjoe
[This message has been edited by Joe Seahawk (edited 11-16-2000).]
Clint in Wichita
11-17-2000, 12:00 AM
"As they go through the ballots, assuming it's clearly punched through and there is no objection by either observer, then the vote is counted," he said. If the observers raise questions about the ballot, "Questionable ones are set aside and the canvassing board will look at it. It is the questionable ballots that the canvassing board has to look at and decide." <P>
Cannibal
11-17-2000, 12:05 AM
Joe,
Bush's campaign co-chair deciding whether or not to accept the hand counts! http://63.249.247.210/ubb/wink.gif
Look I don't think anyone is in a position to concede yet.
So far everything that is being done is being done legally.
I predict that in the end though, the recount will not result in enough votes for Al Gore to win, everything becomes moot, Gore concedes, and we move on...
Clint in Wichita
11-17-2000, 12:15 AM
Wolf,
Personally, I hope the "true" winner wins.
The votes have been counted twice. I have no problem with a hand count of the whole state. that was my choice.
However to do a manual re-count in 4 pro democratic countys where the canvassing comission decides voter intent seems a bit strange to me.
Do you think that is fair?
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