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One Arrowhead Dave
10-03-2000, 10:01 AM
Raye called some very good plays over the last three games. Yes, the good calls were mixed in with some pretty stupid calls and we continue to mindlessly pound the middle on the ground and we still disappear on Offense for a quarter, but there is cause for hope.

Raye has actually surprised me on occasion. I would never have believed he had the nerve to call a play action pass backed up to our end zone [though I was howling for him to do so].

He has improved and our penalties have increased to the point that he may no longer be the worst problem on our team. He has a long way to go before I can actually support him as OC, but he deserves some credit for last night’s victory. Keep it up, Jimmy, and you might get to serve me that crow steak.

xoxo~
gaz
amazed.<BR>

Warrior5
10-03-2000, 10:28 AM
Gaz, have to agree. Are we winning because of him, or in spite of him? In my mind, the jury is still out.

Baby Lee
10-03-2000, 10:32 AM
I am not totally on the JR bandwagon yet, but he has done a great job the 2 of the last 3 games.

I am concerned about the lack of discipline with the penalties.

I really like the DL play so far.



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bk

Tomahawk 11
10-03-2000, 10:35 AM
~ how far is "a long way to go..."

~ do ya think Grbacs execution under pressure has anything to do with it ;-)

dabreeze
10-03-2000, 10:49 AM
I'm not a Raye backer by any means, but I think Raye shoulders more of the blame than he deserves. At the end of the '98 season the passing offence was fairly productive. Then, along comes Gunther, who seemed determined to rush the ball to prove toughness. I think the offence was limited by the scope of what Gunther would allow. Even under the leash system last year, we seemed to have an uncanny ability to do well on third down and to score in the red zone. That kind of efficiancy in crucial situations doesn't happen by accident. Now this year, it looks like Gunther has decided he would rather win than prove his toughness and has loosened the straight jacket a bit. It has been like flipping a light switch. Again, sudden changes like that don't happen by accident. Raye still has his faults (like moving away from a play that is working), but I don't think running up Grunny's backside is Raye's preferred game plan. I think RBBC is also a Gunism, that can't be layed at Raye's feet.

dabreeze
10-03-2000, 10:50 AM
I'm not a Raye backer by any means, but I think Raye shoulders more of the blame than he deserves. At the end of the '98 season the passing offence was fairly productive. Then, along comes Gunther, who seemed determined to rush the ball to prove toughness. I think the offence was limited by the scope of what Gunther would allow. Even under the leash system last year, we seemed to have an uncanny ability to do well on third down and to score in the red zone. That kind of efficiancy in crucial situations doesn't happen by accident. Now this year, it looks like Gunther has decided he would rather win than prove his toughness and has loosened the straight jacket a bit. It has been like flipping a light switch. Again, sudden changes like that don't happen by accident. Raye still has his faults (like moving away from a play that is working), but I don't think running up Grunny's backside is Raye's preferred game plan. I think RBBC is also a Gunism, that can't be layed at Raye's feet.

One Arrowhead Dave
10-03-2000, 10:52 AM
Desert Chief-

To be honest, I don’t know how long it will take for me to bail on the Rayebasher wagon. Raye’s record of failure extends back for years and his record of predominantly good playcalling extends back three weeks.

He will have to show me consistently good play calling, without the predictability that hurt us so bad on numerous occasions. He will have to stop disappearing for a quarter at a time. He will have to continue to attack whatever the Defense gives him. And he will have to do that for an extended period of time [3 quarters is insufficient].

I can be had, but I am not easy.

xoxo~
gaz
not easy, but definitely worth the effort.<BR>

Snapper
10-03-2000, 10:52 AM
raye cost me $5

I bet that the 73yd Alexander catch was going to be 3 runs up TGr's butt and a punt...Imagine my (pleasant) suprise seeing a PASS!!!!!!!! inside our 20..

outcome was worth more enjoyment than the 2 beer loss.

One Arrowhead Dave
10-03-2000, 10:53 AM
I still think Raye was a bad, bad mistake on Gunther’s part. I think he hindered us in more games than he helped us. I think he shows signs that he can call an unpredictable game that attacks the openings in the Defense, but still goes brain dead for several series at a time.

Still, he has showed improvement. That is the criteria we are using for Grbac, so the same metric should be applied to Raye.

Is he our OCOTF? IMO, no. We would be MUCH better off with a more aggressive OC. But he has exceeded my expectations over the last three games and I owe him the courtesy of saying so in the same forum where I bash him brutally.

Clint asked why Rayebashers were not giving credit to Raye when the Grbashers are expected to laud Grbac’s improvement. Thus this thread. I am a Rayebasher giving Raye credit for helping his team over the last three games.

Good job, Jimmy. Keep it up, please.

xoxo~
gaz
thinks that didn’t hurt too much.<BR>

wutamess
10-03-2000, 10:56 AM
Excellent take cdcox. Nothing more to add!

Tomahawk 11
10-03-2000, 11:04 AM
One more gazzing --

Gaz are you a Olympic quality ballroom dancer ?
when I asked ~ how far is "a long way to go..." I was trying to get an idea on the amount of time, or wins, or even a big win (vs Rams ?) it would take.
I'm not buying the idea that it takes an equal amount of time for successes to overcome failures, why that would be unfair.

Also what 'move' do you have for this one, again:
~ do ya think Grbacs execution under pressure has anything to do with it ;-)

Stuckinbama
10-03-2000, 11:15 AM
I have always liked the different plays that the Chiefs offense can use. Sometimes, I do not lie the Three runs up Grunhards A$$ and Punt. However, I don't want the offensive system to change. We Just need Raye to continue mix up his play calling.

Hoover
Like the offense, worry about Raye

One Arrowhead Dave
10-03-2000, 11:16 AM
Desert Chief-

If I had a set criteria, I would have given it to you. I simply watch and evaluate the various positions, collecting data until a conclusion forms.

Sometimes that happens quickly [Hicks is a stud, Gray was a panic move, Morris will be a playa].

Sometimes that takes more time [Grbac might be an okay QB, maybe Gunther is not HC material, Richardson should stay at FB].

Sorry I cannot give you a timetable. I will continue to watch and evaluate the play calling. When Raye calls a good game, I will say so. If he does so consistently [no, I don’t know how many weeks, days, hours and seconds that is], then I will gleefully eat my crow and leap from the Rayebasher wagon.

Sorry, I didn’t mean to ignore your question. My apologies for offending.

I think Raye and Grbac used to have a symbiotic relationship. I think Raye’s boneheaded play calling often put Grbac in 3rd & long and set him up for failure. On the other hand, I think Grbac’s inability to read a Defense forced Raye to be more conservative than he might have wished to be. Throw Gunther’s “we’re gonna out-tough you” ‘tude into the mix d you had a muddy mess.

Grbac’s performance under pressure has improved, though he still reverts back to bad habits on occasion. Gonzalez’s TD was great, but that ball should not have been thrown, IMO. Still, Grbac has played quite since The Leash came off last season. Sure, there have been some stinkers, but overall he has improved considerably. Here’s hoping that I can say the same thing about Raye and Gunther in the future.

xoxo~
gaz
showing his ‘moves’<BR>

One Arrowhead Dave
10-03-2000, 12:07 PM
Desert Chief-

“I'm not buying the idea that it takes an equal amount of time for successes to overcome failures, why that would be unfair.”

So how long does it take to redeem failure? What would be fair?

xoxo~
gaz
doesn’t want to be unfair.<BR>

RAGTOPRAIDER
10-03-2000, 12:15 PM
I see Raye as a co-ordinator who inherited a system that was a decade in the making. The Chiefs are a running team - period. He hung that philosophy out until it was obvious that it no longer worked with this unit. I find it difficult to tar him as ineffectual, stubborn, stupid or lacking in vision or creativity. He was given a road map, and now he's labeled as a moron for following it. The fact that the offense is beginning to gel is, I believe, the mark of an extremely talented individual doing a superb job of adapting on the fly. If some play calling fails, placing total blame at his feet is extremely myopic. It takes a large group of people to screw up, or succeed. Cutting one person out of the herd is way too easy - and inaccurate.

Chieficus
10-03-2000, 12:20 PM
Seattle is soft up the gut and Blackshear is now getting into synch with his fellow lineman. These were good reasons to pound the middle on the ground against them. We need to show that we can take whatever opposing defenses give us, just like any other balanced and effective offense. Raye has been doing a good job lately. I'm impressed that his offense outscored Holmgren's in the 2nd half by two TDs. Of course, we had the better QB, but Raye should be given a small amount of credit for taking the ribbon and giftwrap off of our prize QB and setting him loose.

mikey23545
10-03-2000, 12:25 PM
I wish people would give the "Raye has been a n absolute failure wherever he has coached" argument a rest.

He was with piss poor teams. No OC could have made Tampa a contender back then. They needed a complete overhaul to be competitive, and so did the Rams.

Marv Levy wasn't a great coach in KC, but given a new atmosphere in Buffalo he excelled.

Judge Raye for what he has, or hasn't, accomplished in Kansas City, not Tampa or LA.

ck_IN
10-03-2000, 12:53 PM
As an entrenched Raye Basher, these words come hard. He has actually called 3 good games in a row. I am EXTREMELY pleased we have the guts to throw INTO the endzone from about the 25yrd line. Years and games past we would try to run it in, until we got into 3rd and long and try some safe dump off pass.

The call last night for the play action bomb on 1st and 10 from our own five was a thing of beauty!

We seem to be coming out of our shell. Is it because we have fallen behind and needed to score? We are passing on first and second down. We are passing on running downs and running on passing downs. A very good thing.

Was Gun holding the reigns on Raye. Don't know. Think we will get our first true test of an opened up offense when we GET a 10 point lead early in the game. If we go to run, run, 3rd and long Pass, punt. Then things truely haven't changed. Believe this is what cost us the Titan game. Don't want to see that happen again. If you have the lead start going for the kill. Much like we did against San Diego.

Slowing becoming a Jimmy Raye supporter.

[This message has been edited by Red Till Dead (edited 10-03-2000).]

Bwana
10-03-2000, 03:13 PM
"He has improved and our penalties have increased to the point that he may no longer be the worst problem on our team."


-The CHIEFS led the NFL in penalties last season and so far this season it has not gotten better. Too many penalties. More sprints Coach!

continuing to deflect heat

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CHIEFS

[This message has been edited by Best-in-West (edited 10-03-2000).]

B2chiefsfan
10-03-2000, 03:16 PM
I am the biggest Raye basher in town. I always have been and always will be. Yes, he's had a fairly good run in the last three games. My question is... why did it take him 2+ years to do it? http://www.ChiefsPlanet.com/ubb/confused.gif

A couple of times last night, he went back into his shell. My fear is that he'll do it again for a longer period, a whole game maybe, at a crucial time. http://www.ChiefsPlanet.com/ubb/tongue.gif

He must have the weapons in place now. Just think if Martz had come here instead of St. Louis. And if there's one Martz out there, there's another one somewhere. Please, Santa, bring him here!

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Frodo lives!!

Go Chiefs!!

Tomahawk 11
10-03-2000, 03:39 PM
Gaz -


Thanks for the reply.
I don't have an answer myself as to how long it takes to redeem failure... I was asking you. Contrary to what you believe, I generally do not ask questions I already know the answer to.
The point about Grbac & Raye having an unsolicited "symbiotic" affair going on is a pecuilar and interesting notion. Obviously a topic suited for an NC-17 rating.
Grbac's tendency for bonehead plays, followed by his bewildered attempts at fly cathing via a open mouth could always rear up at anytime, but overall I see a guy who has withstood the onslaught of some tough years here in KC. Besides growing a spinal cord and losing short-term memory, maybe it's the "Ted Kaczinsky" look he's been sproting of late ?