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View Full Version : Rebel flag is it racist?


BroncoFan
10-05-2000, 04:40 PM
Am just curious as to everyone's thoughts

JOhn
10-05-2000, 04:52 PM
Nope, don't think so but it depends on what one's perception is.

RAGTOPRAIDER
10-05-2000, 04:54 PM
No more so than a swastika.

KCWolfman
10-05-2000, 04:57 PM
It was NOT intended to be racist, but the KKK certainly didn't help when they used it as one of their chief symbols.<BR>

KCTitus
10-05-2000, 05:07 PM
NO, thats ridiculous.

KCWolfman
10-05-2000, 05:41 PM
Big Daddy, not sure which post you are referring to...

The history of the rebel flag is one based upon the belief of the southern states in state's rights, including the right to own slaves. The flag was NEVER a "we're racists!" flag... It was in a different time and place... The flag was a "state's rights" flag and to the degree that any state can be oppressive and pass stupid laws, including slave ownership, then you can stretch it into a racist issue.

The Civil War was NOT about racism as much as about the end of slavery. Racism as a cultural issue started long before the civil war and persists to this day. But it had very little to do with the creation and reasoning behind the Confederate flag.

I always find it interesting when folks so easily resort to anecdotes and hyperbole instead of doing their research... But then again, I majored in U.S. history.<BR>

elvislivesinkc
10-05-2000, 05:54 PM
Like the swastika was tainted by the Nazis, the Confederate flag has been tainted by the KKK. Regardless of their origins, they now symbolize oppression to those who had been oppressed by those who sported them. Before being adopted by the Nazis, the swastika was merely an ancient symbol for good luck. Not so lucky anymore.

Being a non-Southern white man who appreciates the historical significance of the rebel flag (not a banner for slavery but rather a symbol of defiance against tyranny) I have no strong feelings about it one way or another. But I certainly understand why blacks don't want to see it. As with the swastika, we can blame the people who adopted it for its bad image.

chiefsfan
10-05-2000, 06:07 PM
Why don't you try marching down the street with one in Harlem. I think you'd get your answer.

chiefsfan
10-05-2000, 06:07 PM
Why don't you try marching down the street with one in Harlem. I think you'd get your answer.

KCTitus
10-05-2000, 06:43 PM
IdahoJim,
I think that peoples perceptions are often far from reality, especially with this sorry a** media we have in this country. The flag represents MANY things and many different people all struggling to obtain power in this country at that time. Slavery was only one of the issues of the time. It would be a very shallow statement to say it stands for racism. Many people died fighting under that flag and it would be also shallow to assume that all of them were fighting for slavery when that simply wasn't the case.Fact is: Almost all of them did not have slaves and had little gain by passing slavery.Remember that history was written by those who won and this issue has been sensationalized ( is that a word? ) to no end.

Nelson Muntz
10-05-2000, 07:24 PM
hmmmm... is this a chiefs board??? I guess since nothings going on with the team this week people have nothing else to talk anout???

SPUTinKC
10-05-2000, 07:53 PM
I think you mean the Confederate Battle Flag, not the Confederate Flag. People that say "that flag is a symbol of racism" are whacked. If anything, they should be against the true fag of the Conferacy, not it's battle flag.

And, I don't think it is.

Garcia Bronco
10-05-2000, 08:31 PM
This is a very sensitive issue and one in which you could make enemies. The question however is a compeling one.

It's wrong to stereotype. Its indeed difficult to stereotype a society from a different century. My feeling is that the flag originated among a people who were neglegent to what we know today as human rights. To me the flag represents a dark time in American History.
It pains me to think this. But its arguable, at least where I live, that people who bear the flag, either on thier vehicles or on their person , may indeed share in that neglect in this modern day. Its hard for me to have a positive emotion when I see that flag.


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A Chiefs/Royals/Jayhawks Fan Living Where Cowboys/Rangers/Longhorns Fans Live...Help!

[This message has been edited by chief_red_pants (edited 10-05-2000).]

DIEHARDCHIEF
10-05-2000, 09:18 PM
As has been mentioned the Civil War was fought over the right of states to exist as enitities, legislatively unhindered by the central government. The flag was and is a symbol that the secessionists used as their emblem. Slavery, was indeed at the heart of the cause of the civil war because it drove the economy of the south and without it, the southern states had crops, but no one to tend or harvest them. The south felt threatened by the election of Abraham Lincoln, on the newly formed Republican ticket, and that they would be encircled and economically strangled in Congress by abolitionists. They felt their only chance to keep their #1 investments were to secede from the USA and so they did, and this was their symbol.

So to stop babbling, I have always been of the mind that the Confederate flag is a symbol in favor of the continuation of the enslavement of innocent humans for economic gain, not necessarily racism. However, I always feel ashamed and saddened when I see it used as a source of pride, like on state flags, and can say that I am offended by it. I am a 23 year old white male from Leavenworth, Kansas so I don't have direct emotional ties to the flag as many southerners do. I guess I am entitled to my opinion as much as the next guy.

[This message has been edited by DJay23 (edited 10-05-2000).]

AustinChief
10-05-2000, 10:25 PM
Tim - So if a white extremist group makes its new banner the Stars and Stripes, per your analogy, doesn't that make our flag racist?

All flags have a positive and a negative history. Actually the swastika is a ripoff of an East Indian design that means something akin to peace.

As far as walking in harlem with the confederate battle flag... that is silly. I wouldn't walk in Harlem with 100.00 bills sticking out of my pocket either. Does that mean that the money is racist?

KCWolfman
10-05-2000, 10:32 PM
I would agree, Big Daddy, that the flag is not a symbol I would want to parade around today. That said, it is appropriate to discuss the flag in its context in history and its meaning today.

So, for the record, I am not proud of the Confederate flag, but I do think we need to remember its past and its present...<BR>

testguy_ie
10-05-2000, 10:53 PM
If we as a nation can do one thing to ease racial tension, that one thing is to ban the Confederate flag from it's state's flagpole. Now, I don't agree with making it illegal to display it as an individual right, but we all know its negative history. Besides, that battle was lost 135 yrs ago. Isn't it about time we lay that to rest?

AustinChief
10-05-2000, 11:00 PM
Postal Chief - You are correct, it holds no bearing on a current state office.

So since Jefferson was so insensitive as to own slaves, he should be removed from all money, the Constitution, and any govt office.

Besides the Battle Flag of the Confederacy was not based solely on slavery, just as the Stars and Stripes are not based solely on the deaths of innocent women and children in Vietnam.

If the States general populace agrees to make the flag illegal to be posted in a govt office, fine. But dont try and make it a national law - we have enough of those already.

AustinChief
10-05-2000, 11:02 PM
When people make laws with their hearts instead of their minds, the laws are not just. I am sure that many of you "feel it is the right thing to do".

There is nothing logical said that can make the Confederate Battle Flag illegal.

KCWolfman
10-05-2000, 11:13 PM
National and state laws prohibiting the display of certain "offensive" flags are blatantly in violation of the First Amendment.

I realize there are those who believe that there are some things that should be banned from display, but unless you change the Constitution, it is usually illegal and suppressive.

Who decides what to censor and what not to censor? You? Me?

Yosef_Malkovitch
10-05-2000, 11:39 PM
I thought I had heard the last of this when the flag was removed from the statehouse dome here in S.C.

1)If we ban anything that had ties to the "War Between the States" it would outlaw many state flags.

2) The hypocrisy of the stance by the NAACP is laughable. They unsuccessfully boycotted the State of South Carolina,while all the while completely ignoring the fact that the state flag of GA had the same symbolism in it's state flag. It has made little or no attempt to put the same pressure on the state of GA.

mmaddog
*************

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"When you're not the lead dog in the pack, the view is always the same"

TEX
10-06-2000, 06:17 AM
OFGS............. I guess this means that since I have white sheets on my bed that I'm a member of the KKK!!!!!!!!!! How can you attribute emotion to an inanimate object??

ps: the sheets don't have eyeholes

47mack
10-06-2000, 06:20 AM
I always thought that the confederate flag stood for some group of tobbacco chewing(including the women), boot wearing, rednecks that drive around in old beat up pickups w/huge tires listening to Hank Jr.

Ok, all kidding aside. I can see where this flag can be compared to the Nazi swastika flag. But, I can also see the side of the people who are not racist that see the flag as a symbol of Southern heritage. Unfortunately, this flag has been adopted by hate groups like the KKK & that is where it gets the most exposure. Maybe the KKK could change their flag to a picture of a big horse's *** , since it would be more fitting.



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It looks I picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue!

Baby Lee
10-06-2000, 06:36 AM
Mark:

Wasn't South Carolina more of a Republican state ve the democratic state of Georgia? Isn't that why Jesse Jackson and the other people in the Monochrome Coalition boycotted SC?



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bk

Yosef_Malkovitch
10-06-2000, 06:55 AM
bk:

BINGO!!!! You win the prize.

There were several other though processeses to why it never happened in GA also. One being that Atlanta has a very large branch of the NAACP there, has a large number of minority owned businesses that cater to the convention business, and would be hurt by a boycott, and the fact that it had ALL of it resources dedicated to the fight in SC and didn't feel that it could "win the battle" in both states.

What is funny is that during the boycott tourism was up 6% over the previous year, and this year is enjoying another increase still. The convention business has declined, but SC has never been a state to attract a major convention because it has no really large major city to accomodate one.

mmaddog
**************

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"When you're not the lead dog in the pack, the view is always the same"

[This message has been edited by Mark Kilgore (edited 10-06-2000).]

Luzap
10-06-2000, 07:14 AM
I find the Confederate flag as offensive as that African Tribal stuff (especially at College Graduations) and the Malcom X hats.

They're all about heritage, right? And they are about dividing the Union of this republic.

United we stand, dived we fall.

kc hopeful
10-06-2000, 07:18 AM
It seems rather funny and sad that the symbol of a failed rebellion 135 years ago still stirs such emotion. The flag means different things to different people. There are many Southerners who still refer to Northerners as Yankees. Which I find rather funny when you consider that many of their ancestors either moved from the North or had not yet immigrated when the Civil War took place. A friend of mine who moved to the south was caught off guard when his son came home from school rather confused because as he said “ Dad I thought the North were the good guys” Apparently there was some discussion of the “War of the Northern oppression”. I personally would not want a rebel flag as part of my state flag but, I think that it is none of my business what the other states do. That should be up to the citizens of those states to decide.

I would rather be offended than censored

[This message has been edited by RCGChief (edited 10-06-2000).]

Boise_Chief
10-06-2000, 07:29 AM
It's never offended me. It's just a battle flag of a failed rebellion. How it's equated with slavery is a PC hot topic of debate.

Snapper
10-06-2000, 07:49 AM
If History is not recalled, It is bound to repeat itself.

The history of these states, good or bad, is exactly that, History. The issues before and leading up to the Civil War, right or wrong are still part of those states history.
People and states current situations are affected by this history, and it should be remembered, not "swept under a rug" because a political interest wishes to make issue of it.

I guess I just have thick skin. I see things every day that I may not like, or agree with, but I have realized that life just isn't always fair...and the best method for me is just to "move on" and not worry about it.

When the Malcom X hats came out in the early 90's, in an attempt at ironic humor, I had a black hat embroidered with a large 0. I had a counterargument for almost every issue raised by the X. IF it was about "unknown", my 0 meant "known" as in I know MY history.

KC Jones
10-06-2000, 07:55 AM
The flag is not, what it stands for is not, the way it is used in this day and age is....

But the flag that causes all the problems is the Confederate Battle flag...if the Flag of the Confederate States was used, I doubt if anyone would even know what or whos flag is was....

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joe

"The word "genius" isn't applicable in football. A genius is a guy like Norman Einstein."
-Joe Theisman, NFL football quarterback and sports analyst

BroncoFan
10-06-2000, 09:03 AM
South Carolina Was the first state to Secede from the Union. <P>

Kurt Surber
10-06-2000, 09:12 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Helvetica, verdana, ariel">quote:</font><HR> . I wouldn't walk in Harlem with 100.00 bills sticking out of my pocket either. Does that mean that the money is racist? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
No. Not the money.

Yosef_Malkovitch
10-06-2000, 09:20 AM
Pam:

"South Carolina Was the first state to Secede from the Union. "

And Texas is the only state that still maintains the legal right to secede from the United States.

Your point is?

mmaddog
****************

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"When you're not the lead dog in the pack, the view is always the same"

G_Man
10-06-2000, 09:28 AM
Of course the rebel flag is a racist symbol. We all know it. It only exists today because a bunch of people in the south didn't want to give up their precious slaves. The Nazi flag exists because a group of people didn't want to share this planet with Jews.

Besides, the only individuals I see that are willing to proudly display that flag appear to be inbred hicks. Why would ANYONE want to be associated with such a group of idiots?

Coogs
10-06-2000, 09:37 AM
The conferate flag is a symbol. Like it or not, it has become recogonized as a symbol for slavery and racism. It's just like the word discrimination has been insipidly linked with the meaning 'discriminating on the basis of racial stereotypes'. You can argue all you want, but once a symbol and it's meaning have been linked by popular society, unlinking them is near impossible.

[This message has been edited by KC Jones (edited 10-06-2000).]

BroncoFan
10-06-2000, 09:50 AM
Mark,
I was answering post #23

KC Jones
10-06-2000, 10:09 AM
Clint, I have a Confederate Battle Flag hanging in my house, along with a pre WWII American flag....

I do not consider myself a hick or an idiot...I hang the Confederate flag because a. I think it is a neat flag design and b. I am an amatuer civil war historian...in that context, It's no different than my hanging a jersey of the Chargers in my house...I might not like what it stands for, but it's a cool jersey and I'm a football fan...

Not all of us that display symbols, good or bad, are hicks and idiots...

And as I said before, the Confederate flag is not a racist symbol, it's simply a flag design used by the Army of the CSA...it's nothing more than a battle flag....if you showed people that actual flag of the CSA, they wouldn't even know what it was.

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joe

"The word "genius" isn't applicable in football. A genius is a guy like Norman Einstein."
-Joe Theisman, NFL football quarterback and sports analyst

[This message has been edited by 58Forever (edited 10-06-2000).]

G_Man
10-06-2000, 10:15 AM
If you are not a hick or an idiot, then you are definitely the exception to the rule.

The issue of slavery was the driving force of the Civil War. As a civil war buff, you should know better than most of us what that flag stands for.

Luzap
10-06-2000, 10:15 AM
Why would ANYONE want to be associated with such a group of idiots? - I agree, maybe you should rethink your vehement defense of Clinton.

Arkansas flag does commemorate the confederacy in their flag as well. Matter of fact, Clinton signed it into law when was gov.

"The blue star above the word "ARKANSAS" is to commemorate the Confederate States of America." - http://www.arkleg.state.ar.us/newsdcode/lpext.dll?f=templates&fn=main-h.htm&2.0 <BR>

G_Man
10-06-2000, 10:21 AM
I'm not a Clinton supporter...I just refused to get my panties in a bunch because he got his weiner "Lewinskied" then lied about it.

Of course Arkansas recognizes the Confederate flag. Have you ever been there? Jeez, between Arkansas and Mississippi, I can't decide which is the bunghole of the USA.

Luzap
10-06-2000, 10:23 AM
LOL...Touchee, Clint.

Actually was there a few times, canoed down the rivers around Bennett Springs. Good fly fishing down there too.

KC Jones
10-06-2000, 10:24 AM
How the flag came into existence:

"After several incidents of battlefield confusion at Manassas, the staffs of Generals Joseph Johnston and Pierre Beauregard submitted designs for a distinctive banner to fly over the Confederate Army in Northern Virginia to set it distinctly apart from the U.S. Stars and Stripes. The design submitted by General Beauregard's staff was selected as the official banner, due mainly to its simpler design. Conceived on the field of battle for the noblest of reasons, to save the lives of their comrades, the Confederate Battle Flag flew proudly over every battlefield for the next four years, until being furled finally at Appomatox in April 1865."

I don't see anything that says that it was designed to show the south's hate of Blacks or any other minority, etc.

Rethink...racism comes from our hearts and not from a flag.

Clint, but that is not what the flag stands for...at least not then...now of course you are right...all too often it is used by people as a racist symbol and those people are the idoits and hicks....

Slavery was/is wrong...no denying that...I love talking about the Civil War...but alas, I have to work... http://www.ChiefsPlanet.com/ubb/frown.gif
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joe

"The word "genius" isn't applicable in football. A genius is a guy like Norman Einstein."
-Joe Theisman, NFL football quarterback and sports analyst

[This message has been edited by 58Forever (edited 10-06-2000).]

Gaz
10-06-2000, 10:28 AM
Clint wears panties?

Well, if anyone can do so, and do it well, I'm sure it's Clint.

Kurt Surber
10-06-2000, 10:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Helvetica, verdana, ariel">quote:</font><HR>Clint wears panties?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Not only does he wear them, he manages to keep them from bunching by displaying an enlightened world view.
Is this the latest in telekinesis?

KCWolfman
10-06-2000, 10:36 AM
What color? http://www.ChiefsPlanet.com/ubb/eek.gif

Jeff_000
10-06-2000, 10:41 AM
I think a few posts on here hit the nail on the head--it is the use of an object that determines its association in our minds, not the object itself. If liberated blacks in the South had carried the flag after the war, then the flag would've been a symbol for freedom...when it was used by the KKK, it was associated with hate...as with any object (Confederate flag, Swastika, cigar, etc.) it's use will cause an association...if you were raised in a place where the flag was looked upon as good, then that's how you'll see it...if you were raised where it was carried by Klan members, you'll probably see it the other way.

It all depends.

I have seen it both ways, but find that a majority of people who display it tend to have racist tendencies. I should know—-I went to college in Springfield, MO, and saw my share of them.

Mark M
--White, non-racist Lurker <P>

Kurt Surber
10-06-2000, 10:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Helvetica, verdana, ariel">quote:</font><HR>it is the use of an object that determines its association in our minds, not the object itself.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
YEAH!! Just 'cuz panties are mostly found on women doesn't mean they can't be comfortable for men as well. Right Clint?

Wait. . . What were we talking about?

KC Jones
10-06-2000, 10:48 AM
http://members.tripod.com/~txscv/13sb.gif

http://members.tripod.com/~txscv/battle.gif

which image is most offensive?...they stand for the same thing...

[This message has been edited by 58Forever (edited 10-06-2000).]

[This message has been edited by 58Forever (edited 10-06-2000).]

[This message has been edited by 58Forever (edited 10-06-2000).]

One Arrowhead Dave
10-06-2000, 10:53 AM
How can an inanimate object be racist?

Some people who fly the Confederate battle flag might be folks who hate other folks based on the color of their skin and regret that the Civil War paved the way for the end of slavery.

Some people who fly the Confederate battle flag might be states rights advocates who abhor the fact that states were refused the right to secede from what they considered an oppressive institution. A union they joined voluntarily, but were prevented from leaving by force of arms.

Some people who fly the Confederate battle flag might have pride in the bravery and courage shown by their native sons in time of war.

The flag is not racist, any more than a cross or swastika is racist.

Racism is making your decisions based solely on the criteria of race. A flag is not capable of doing that. People who fly the flag might be capable of that sin. People who object to the flying of the flag might also be capable of that sin.

xoxo~
gaz
suspects that his calculator may have Communist sympathies.<BR>

Kurt Surber
10-06-2000, 10:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Helvetica, verdana, ariel">quote:</font><HR> [Gaz] suspects that his calculator may have Communist sympathies. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey maybe Bush is right, Gore did invent it!!<BR>

Jeff_000
10-06-2000, 11:04 AM
JC--
LMAO!!

Gaz--
Exactly my point. An object itself is not racist. But it can bring up racist associations...depending on your experience. When I was growing up, it wasn't a Confederate flag but a Rebel flag--I know, same damn thing, but the "Rebel" tag meant that if you had one, you were a rebel, didn't listen to authority, etc.

However, when I went to college and roomed with a KA (the fraternity that sees General Robert E. Lee as its role model) I got a different persepective. His fraternity saw the flag as an antithesis to the tyranny and hypocritical nature of the US gov't.

Another person on my hall (not a KA) saw the flag as his calling card--he was a Klan member and displayed the flag wherever and whenever he could. For him, it was a symbol of pride, and symbol of his "master race."

The person across from us was black. He saw the flag one way--as a racist symbol that made him uncomfortable. He figured everyone that owned one or carried one was a racist out to oppress him.

I saw all of this take place one semester. The Klan memeber trying to be friends with the KA and the KA trying to prove to the African-American that the flag wasn't a racist symbol. The Klan member wouldn't even look at the African-American, and vice-versa.

I see it as both--a symbol for states rights and the calling card of the clan. It depends on whether its flying over a statehouse or in a KKK parade.

Mark M
--A Lurker trying to have it both ways

Chieffan
10-06-2000, 11:04 AM
The flag is only racist because Jesse Jackson was bored at the time. Here we are all worried about who will win the presidency. WHY?? Jesse Jackson has more power than our president just as the NAACP has MORE power than our own government.

Something is wrong with this picture.

One Arrowhead Dave
10-06-2000, 11:09 AM
This is an interesting subject, and I enjoy reading diverse opinions, but those of you claiming that the Civil War was fought over slavery really need to do some research. The American educational system has seriously short-changed you on your comprehension of our history.

Go to the library. Read and research the period leading up to the outbreak of hostilities. Claiming that the Civil War was fought over slavery is like claiming that World War One was fought over the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand.

xoxo~
gaz
prefers discussing history rather than myth.<BR>

EMZ96
10-06-2000, 11:11 AM
47mack-

Could you possibly explain to me how the NAACP has more power than the United States government? Sorry to be a stick in the mud if that was merely hyperbole, but I just couldn't let you get away with such a bizarre statement without backing it up....

Mark

Jeff_000
10-06-2000, 11:15 AM
Gaz--

Bless you, sir. States rights was the deal...northerners had slaves, too, it's just that the North's economy wasn't damn near totally dependent upon that slave labor. I think that's why the history books always make it a slave issue...it makes the South look bad.

Mark M
--Forever a Lurker, getting a history lesson from Gaz http://www.ChiefsPlanet.com/ubb/smile.gif

EMZ96
10-06-2000, 11:16 AM
Gaz-

Civil War history is something that fascinates me as well. My interest in the subject intensified when I discovered that an ancestor of mine had fought in the War on the Union side.

While I am an admitted occasional Confederate sympathizer (the whole lost cause bit is so darn romantic) wouldn't it seem that the whole states' rights issue essentially stems back to slavery??

Mark-
playing devil's advocate.

Chieffan
10-06-2000, 11:21 AM
It is just my opinion. Whenever the NAACP wants something, it is given to them. That shows me power.

When was the last time Jesse Jackson was told no? or to shut the hell up? or hey, YOU and YOU'RE racist thoughts need to go?

In all reality, no, the NAACP doesn't have more power that the U.S. gov't, but they do have way too much.

I am not even close to being a racist, although I do think that there are certian groups that bring negativity to their race. I think that the whole idea of the NAACP existance will cause some whites to remain racist for a long time. Why, because some are tired of catering to others for something that happened long before our existance.

Just my opinion.

EMZ96
10-06-2000, 11:21 AM
More on the Civil War issue-

Granted there were significant cultural and economic differences between the North and the South. And certainly more than a few times the North was thrust into the role of bad guy. However it would seem that when the states argued to "maintain their way of life" and so forth they were simply pleading to prop up their economy with the slave labor that allowed rich white men to prosper in an agricultural economy. Granted the vast majority of Southerners did not own slaves, but it would seem that slave labor accounted for a large portion of the South's gross product.

Mark

EMZ96
10-06-2000, 11:25 AM
47mack-

An argument could certainly be made that Louis Farakhan and Co. are racist, although I fail to concur that one group of extremists can reflect poorly on an entire race of people. Nonetheless, I disagree that the NAACP is racist. They are a pretty mainstream group last I checked... and most of their goals I agree with, those being equal opportunity and equal representation in all professional fields for minorities.

Mark-
since when was fairness racist??

One Arrowhead Dave
10-06-2000, 11:29 AM
Mark-

Slavery is an essential issue in understanding the Civil War and was a crucial factor in the clash of lifestyles that lead up to the attempt to break up the Union. My problem is that the Civil War has been re-cast as a noble crusade against slavery, with the upstanding North battling the evil South.

That is so distorted as to become untrue.

I don't see how people can have a discussion about the Civil War until we all understand that it was not a holy Crusade. This twisted view of history is the fault of the American educational system. The winners write the history and the North was quick to alter the facts to make itself look better to people downstream in time.

Once you do some reading an understand the causes that lead up to "The Late Unpleasantness," you can put slavery in its place as one of the factors that escalated a probably-inevitable break between the industrial North and the agrarian South.

xoxo~
gaz
fascinated by the sweep of history.<BR>

Chieffan
10-06-2000, 11:31 AM
It depends on what you think is equal.

Example

2 job openings
10 applicants.....9 white, 1 black
does the black automatically get one of the positions?

Is that equality?

How about a couple of years ago when minorities blocked I-70 to protest that minority owned contracting companies weren't getting enough state contracting jobs. Do you agree with that?

Equality

I didn't qualify for the United Negro College fund. Why not? Was it because I was white?

The-Man
10-06-2000, 11:40 AM
The flag itself is not racist. As others have pointed out, it is an inanimate object.

But while the flag itself is not racist, it is a symbol of racism.

EMZ96
10-06-2000, 11:43 AM
47mack-

While I am not familiar with the specific contracting issues, etc. that you are referring to, I can elaborate on my stance on this issue. No, I do not believe in quotas, I do however think that race can be a legitimate factor in making employment decisions ALL OTHER FACTORS BEING RELATIVELY EQUAL.

I am not opposed to minority groups taking strides to improve their condition in America. Time has taught us that if they don't speak up for themselves, it is unlikely that anyone else will.

Gaz-

We are in agreement that the idea of the "noble crusade" is a myth. However it would seem that many of the issues that people claim are the "actual" causes of the civil war: states rights, etc... really reflect back to one major issue, the right to own slaves.

It is important to consider this conflict in another light.. did the Union have the right to step in and mandate that the South should live their lives a certain way. That is the real issue here, and it one that I am still going back and forth about in my own mind.

Mark-
later folks, gotta run to stat class http://www.ChiefsPlanet.com/ubb/frown.gif

Chieffan
10-06-2000, 11:45 AM
Revolver

I have enjoyed conversing with you and respect your opinions. I gotta run now. I'll check back later for more 47mack bashing.

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TWB
Less Government in 2000

AustinChief
10-06-2000, 11:46 AM
Let it be pointed out that Lincoln considered never freeing the slaves. Slavery was not a central issue in the fighting of the Civil War. It was an afterthought, a sidenote in history. The conflict between the states boiled down to economic factors, between a prosperous industrial nation, and an agricultural society who couldn't keep up.

Also, the NAACP stand for the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People. How does that translate into equality? If it results in equality, so be it, but I think they stand for the rights of African-Americans above all others.

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Parker
ChiefsPlanet Administrator
Jimmy Raye for President...anything to get him out of Kansas City
[i]More Moreau</I>

Chieffan
10-06-2000, 11:47 AM
Maybe they weren't speaking up for themselves in the past, but they are overstepping their boundries now, IMO.

LATER



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TWB
Less Government in 2000

KC Jones
10-06-2000, 11:48 AM
As I said earlier, I am an amatuer Civil War Historian....

While slavery was an issue for sure, it was not the reason for the War...some one said it earlier...it was about states rights...

Lincloln was determined not to let the Union split apart...he didn't really care if that meant keeping slavery or not...as long as the Union was united....

Lincoln was a genius at motivation...when it appeared that the North was losing interest in the War and consequently not fighting as hard to preserve the Union...he came up with the Emancipation Proclamation...what a great motivational tool...the Northern soldiers now had a tangible thing to fight for...again, Northern soldiers couldn't care less about "****** "..for the most part they had about as much respect for them as did the southern slave owners...but now they had a cause and ultimately that proved to be the difference.....

Gaz, are all engineers so well versed in the history of the Civil War?

History 101
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joe

"The word "genius" isn't applicable in football. A genius is a guy like Norman Einstein."
-Joe Theisman, NFL football quarterback and sports analyst

[This message has been edited by 58Forever (edited 10-06-2000).]

[This message has been edited by 58Forever (edited 10-06-2000).]

AustinChief
10-06-2000, 11:51 AM
Gaz and Joe,

Yes, you are right. The flag in and off itself is not racist. The "Stars and Bars" is not as well recognized and therefore not as high-profile as the battle flag. However, both are symbols of a time in American history which we should not be proud of. As an American of Jewish-German decent, it pains me to see you make mention fo the Swaztika in the same light. The symbol itself is not racist, however, universally it is a well known symbol of hatred and genocide.

People should have the common sense and decency to fly the ****ing American flag instead of glorifying symbols that represent ideas that are so blatantly anti-American.

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Parker
ChiefsPlanet Administrator
Jimmy Raye for President...anything to get him out of Kansas City
[i]More Moreau</I>

kc hopeful
10-06-2000, 11:53 AM
I have always seen the argument of States Rights or Slavery being the catalyst for the Civil War as an argument of semantics. Yes of course the issue was States rights but the right in question was one of slavery. It was a #’s game. The North and South at one time had Balance. The fear of imbalance brought up the most ridiculous legislation ever passed namely the 3/5 compromise. My American history teacher went to great lengths to stress that the war was about States Rights and not Slavery, and if I recall correctly Lincoln never vowed to free the slaves prior to the war. In fact the Emancipation Proclamation could easily be viewed as an attempt to sir up a slave revolt to hinder the South’s war effort So yes it was about States Rights but the Slavery issue was so deeply intertwined that it can't left out of the equation.

AustinChief
10-06-2000, 11:54 AM
Joe,

Good take. Very well said. And accurate too.

I have a graduate degree in history, but unfortunately my specialty was in 19th century German philosophers. I wonder how Karl Marx felt about slavery and the Civil War? http://www.ChiefsPlanet.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

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Parker
ChiefsPlanet Administrator
Jimmy Raye for President...anything to get him out of Kansas City
[i]More Moreau</I>

The-Man
10-06-2000, 11:56 AM
OK History buffs...


If the Civil War was not fought because of slavery, but "state's rights", what other state's rights did the Confederacy fight for other than the right to own slaves?

Gaz
10-06-2000, 11:58 AM
The right to pull out of the union for one.

KC Jones
10-06-2000, 12:00 PM
Htis, Yet, at first even the Nazi flag is nothing more than a symbol of a political party...

And as for the same reasons I display a Confederate Battle Flag, I would display a Nazi flag...not because I'm an aryan prick, but because I find it a neat design and I am a collector of military memorabilia.

I am of Italian descent. Italy was on the Nazis side at first but by war's end teh Italians hated the Nazis as much as anyone...

When I was a kid, I drew a picture of a Nazi flag inside my garage...my grandad, coming from Italy in the 20s...slapped my silly...I couldn't understand why...I thought it was a cool looking flag...I had no idea what it symbolized....the innocence of a child...unfortunately...the adults around too many children steal that innocence and turn it to hate...my grandpa taught me what it meant...something not to display nor be proud of....

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joe

"The word "genius" isn't applicable in football. A genius is a guy like Norman Einstein."
-Joe Theisman, NFL football quarterback and sports analyst

The-Man
10-06-2000, 12:01 PM
But why did they want to pull out of the Union?

Yosef_Malkovitch
10-06-2000, 12:01 PM
Gaz:

First, thank you for so eloquently stating what i was trying so hard to type without appearing annoying.

"My problem is that the Civil War has been re-cast as a noble crusade against slavery, with the upstanding North battling the evil South."

Like many I was brought up in the Midwest school systems teaching the Northern version of the Civil War. After moving here to South Carolina a few years back my passion for History was rekindled and I found a new zeal to broaden my horizon. It only takes a visit to Fort Sumter and Charleston, SC for one to get a new view of the "War of Northern Agression". The atrocities that were committed on the people of the South were just as great as those that have been portrayed as being committed by the Confederacy. If anyone thinks that all the Union Army did was come in and "liberate" slaves(in some cases they were taken back North to be used as household slaves there)then furthering reading needs to be done.

con't<BR>

KC Jones
10-06-2000, 12:06 PM
I don't know as much about Marx...but wasn't he around for the Bolshevick (spelling) revolution?....a civil war of sorts.... http://www.ChiefsPlanet.com/ubb/smile.gif

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joe

"The word "genius" isn't applicable in football. A genius is a guy like Norman Einstein."
-Joe Theisman, NFL football quarterback and sports analyst

Kurt Surber
10-06-2000, 12:07 PM
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0671867423/o/qid=970855306 /sr=8-1/ref=aps_sr_b_1_3/104-1254091-1981514 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0671867423/o/qid=970855306/sr=8-1/ref=aps_sr_b_1_3/104-1254091-1981514)

Lincoln at Gettysburg : The Words That Remade America

A great treatise on the events leading up to and philosophy underlying the Gettysburg Address, by most counts the point [late in the war] that the reasons for the Civil war [at least from the view of the Union] were laid out.

[This message has been edited by JC-Johnny (edited 10-06-2000).]

Yosef_Malkovitch
10-06-2000, 12:17 PM
The many stories of the pillaging and looting, burning and bombings of decent Southern people are many. There are many cases of towns being burned to the ground, the men killed(white or black), the children made to work as "fetch it" boys, and the woman(black & white)being raped, and in the cases of the less fortunate ones being made to travel with the troops as "comfort for the men when they need relief" from the stresses of the war. Unlike Scarlett O'Hara in the fictional novel, many Southern women were not treated with dignity at all, but treated with scorn & disdain.

Anyone who dares glamorize the mission of the Union Army is just as prejudiced as they would portray a "Confederate Redneck".

mmaddog
******************

KC Jones
10-06-2000, 12:19 PM
Cannabibal:

Obviously, slavery was an issue...but, the Southern states felt that the Federal Government had way too much power and control over them...taxation, importation of their goods...captial improvements for the good of the nation, but maybe not for the good of the South...sound like some of the rhetoric spouted by militias today?....

to be continued....

then along came the Missouri Compromise...and laws that would prohibited slave states in any new territory not already part of the Union...

This was the ultimate infringement on states rights to the south...the north trying to tell them where slaves could be allowed...the issue of slavery was just one more in a long line of rights the Federal goverment were trying to take away from the south...slaver was a catylist...not a cause....

Since I'm not working at my job, I guess you can say I'm getting paid to be a history teacher today.... http://www.ChiefsPlanet.com/ubb/biggrin.gif


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joe

"The word "genius" isn't applicable in football. A genius is a guy like Norman Einstein."
-Joe Theisman, NFL football quarterback and sports analyst

[This message has been edited by 58Forever (edited 10-06-2000).]

The-Man
10-06-2000, 12:19 PM
OK History buffs...


If the Civil War was not fought because of slavery, but "state's rights", what other state's rights did the Confederacy fight for other than the right to own slaves?

Duck Dog
10-06-2000, 12:27 PM
Cannibal,

I'm going totaly off of memory here (and I don't have time to look it up), but one of the key 'linchpin' events leading to the succession of the South was the passing of a Bill that required the South to export it's raw materials only to Northern ports (not directly to Europe).

The taxes and tarriffs envolved with this were suffercating and it was a thinly veiled ploy to reduce the economic power of the South.

The War then, was in essence, about what all wars were about ~ economics.

The South believed the states had the right to make their own trade trieties with other countries and the North said no.

Although there was a rather small abolishinist movement going on in the North when hostilities broke out, it had nothing to do with the declaration of the war.

I really hope some of our more recently educated members of this bb would confirm/correct the details of my memory, but I can assure you that the essence of what I'm saying is correct.

Luz
trying to help...<BR>

AustinChief
10-06-2000, 12:29 PM
Cannibal,

South Carolina seceded because of the Northern "aggression" at Fort Sumter. But the questions leading up to it had to do with the Northern "nationalization". The North was becoming increasingly industrialized and powerful. There was strong push to become a player in the global scheme. The federal government was enforcing trade policies that put a damper on 2 CASH crops, cotton and tobacco.

The two sides of this argument (we've seen the polarization here on this thread) as 1) a glorious war fought to bring the redneck slave-owners to justice 2) or a war of Yankee aggression are both justified and false.

The Civil War was a period of American History that we should all be ashamed of. Both sides committed terrible acts...how often does a man shoot his brother out of principle?

------------------
Parker
ChiefsPlanet Administrator
Jimmy Raye for President...anything to get him out of Kansas City
[i]More Moreau</I>

The-Man
10-06-2000, 12:29 PM
So you're saying that the slavery aspect of the war was just a "side bar", to economic issues of the war?<P>

Duck Dog
10-06-2000, 12:32 PM
Exactly.

Another way to say it...

The abolishion of slavery was just a tactic used in the war, not the goal (or even strategy).

Luz
we're all effected by revisionist history...

G_Man
10-06-2000, 12:34 PM
Let's pretend for a minute that slavery wasn't the biggest cause of the Civil War.

Wasn't it the most IMPORTANT issue?

If the Confederacy was also concerned about taxation, etc., why was just the South willing to rebel? Why didn't New Jersey, for instance, become fed up with taxes and join the South?

Taking a cue from Gaz...

Clint in Wichita
Thinking the Confederacy was one big Montana Militia.

G_Man
10-06-2000, 12:38 PM
Why is it that many regard the Confederacy as a bunch of heros who were fighting oppression, but modern-day militia members are considered dangerous psychos?

I wonder how those southern states would've liked paying 30 to 40 percent in taxes like we do now?

[This message has been edited by Clint in Wichita (edited 10-06-2000).]

KCWolfman
10-06-2000, 12:39 PM
How 'bout those Chiefs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Duck Dog
10-06-2000, 12:39 PM
Clint,

You're asking a good question, but one that requires a huge history lesson in this limited forum.

The North and South were two totaly seperate societies; one was based on agriculture, the other on industrialization.

The North held a majority of votes in Congress and the tax and tarriff laws we're discussing effected only the export of raw goods (like cotton), not finished products (cloth produced in the Northern factories ~ from the Southern cotton).

This is an over simplification, but in essence, is correct.

Luz
does this make sense?...

[This message has been edited by Luzap (edited 10-06-2000).]

KC Jones
10-06-2000, 12:41 PM
I would say you are accurate...in #80...similiar to my #78 and although I am not a history professer...I have read extensively on the Civil War...so I think we are both pretty close to being on the money.

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joe

"The word "genius" isn't applicable in football. A genius is a guy like Norman Einstein."
-Joe Theisman, NFL football quarterback and sports analyst

Duck Dog
10-06-2000, 12:42 PM
Thanks Joe!

Luz
i have the memory of an elephant (or was that a donkey?)...

KC Jones
10-06-2000, 12:46 PM
Mark, #77 is perfect...the south was far from perfect but they had a code of honor not shared by the north...both sides in this conflict did their share of terrible things...

the Civil War, more than any other historical event, shape this nation and made it what is is today...to some the greatest nation on earth...to others...a hell hole of sin...you choose...I say a little of both...

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joe

"The word "genius" isn't applicable in football. A genius is a guy like Norman Einstein."
-Joe Theisman, NFL football quarterback and sports analyst

G_Man
10-06-2000, 12:49 PM
How could the best country on Earth NOT be a hellhole of sin? I mean, look at Las Vegas!

God, guns, guts, glory, gambling and prostitution!! Wa-HOOOOO!!

KCWolfman
10-06-2000, 12:50 PM
Don't forget that the book "Uncle Tom's Cabin" helped to flame the fires of abolition sentiment in the North...

Just tossing more fuel on the fire...
;o

KC Jones
10-06-2000, 12:55 PM
Clint, where do you think the modern day militias get their inspiration from?....same principles involved here...

Funny thing I'm not sure many people realize...at the first battle of Manassas (Bull Run if your a Northerner)...the South routed the North...if they had pursued the North's army...they would have taken Washington DC and would have won the war...

The first battle could have been the last and I have to wonder what it would be like today if the south would have won...

Clint, amen brother!


Good Point Fly
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joe

"The word "genius" isn't applicable in football. A genius is a guy like Norman Einstein."
-Joe Theisman, NFL football quarterback and sports analyst

[This message has been edited by 58Forever (edited 10-06-2000).]

[This message has been edited by 58Forever (edited 10-06-2000).]

KCWolfman
10-06-2000, 01:10 PM
As an education footnote, an excellent series on the Civil War was the PBS Series, "The Civil War"... (by Ken Burns?)

It is well worth watching if you can get the tapes or the DVDs...<BR>

KC Jones
10-06-2000, 01:24 PM
Fly, that was a good series...didn't know it was on DVD...may have to spend some money this weekend.... http://www.ChiefsPlanet.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

------------------
joe

"The word "genius" isn't applicable in football. A genius is a guy like Norman Einstein."
-Joe Theisman, NFL football quarterback and sports analyst

Jeff_000
10-06-2000, 01:42 PM
War of economics?

Aren't they all? Look at Kosovo...genocide on a Naziesque scale, yet little has been done. I mean, how much oil is there in Yugoslavia?...

The Civil War was no different...and slaves did factor in...an agricultural society w/o modern, mechanized implements requires physical labor. It was genius for Lincoln to bring it into the forefront to attack not only the South's integrity but their main source of $$. Very motivational.

But that wasn't the central issue...in any war, the loser is portrayed as evil...whether it's the Nazis, Hussein, Mussolini, Lee, Louie and Marie, et. al. And any of the losers' symbols are lumped into there as well, a swastika, conf. flag, ostentatious wealth, whatever...

The U.S. gov't has been responsible for more deaths than any other current nation...just ask any Comanche, Apache, Sioux, Lakota, etc. etc...is our flag a symbol of racism also?

MM
--Enjoying the history lesson (off the clock, I get off work at 1pm on Fri.--as John Cleese said in "Holy Grail", "It's a-very nice!" http://www.ChiefsPlanet.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

[This message has been edited by Mark M (edited 10-06-2000).]

KCWolfman
10-06-2000, 01:46 PM
Being part Indian, I have never considered the U.S. flag an issue. The U.S. flag represents what our best hopes and ideals.

Now, that does not excuse the blatant extermination of Indian tribes, but I also must state that we were often ruthless ourselves, tribe vs. tribe, and tribes against the settlers...

There's plenty of blood to go around folks... Let's just hope we all have learned from it...<BR>

Jeff_000
10-06-2000, 02:02 PM
Fly--
Amen, and good night.

MM
--Leaving now and waiting for the next game http://www.ChiefsPlanet.com/ubb/smile.gif

KC Jones
10-06-2000, 02:03 PM
Fly, I have a question for you...as I asked my black friends if the Confederate flag really bothered them....I ask of you...as part Indian...does the use of stereotypes, as related to indians bother you...I'm talking about "Scalpin' Sammy" the Cleveland mascot...or the use of the name Redskins, etc....personally to me...The Chiefs has a good conotation...how about the "chop"....

just curious.

------------------
joe

"The word "genius" isn't applicable in football. A genius is a guy like Norman Einstein."
-Joe Theisman, NFL football quarterback and sports analyst

KCWolfman
10-06-2000, 02:17 PM
I guess I'm thick-skinned that way... Most of those things like "the chop" and such are gross exaggerations and not really reflective of Indian culture... So I just have never given it serious thought...

Now if they used something like Cleveland Barbaric Savages, I would be more offended, as "savage" and "barbaric" was meant to connote an Indian who was uncultured, uneducated, uncivilized, and would rape your mothers and children...

Even the word "Indian" itself is a misnomer as Columbus totally missed the West Indies...<BR>

Snapper
10-06-2000, 02:29 PM
sorry,

I thought with post 101, i'd do a little flag burning http://www.ChiefsPlanet.com/ubb/smile.gif

KC Jones
10-06-2000, 02:37 PM
Fly, your second paragraph, "...uncultured, uncivlized, etc..." would seem to apply more to the white settelers than to the indians...

That which is different and not understood, is ridiculed....

Damn, Pam, see what you started.... http://www.ChiefsPlanet.com/ubb/wink.gif

------------------
joe

"The word "genius" isn't applicable in football. A genius is a guy like Norman Einstein."
-Joe Theisman, NFL football quarterback and sports analyst

[This message has been edited by 58Forever (edited 10-06-2000).]

KCWolfman
10-06-2000, 02:39 PM
Believe me, based upon the stories passed on in my family's history there's more than enough guilt and blood to go around...

KC Jones
10-06-2000, 02:45 PM
I'm a second generation American...my family came from the old country and I was born here...so I am an American...non of that hyphenated crap...African-, Italian-, etc...I am an American....

But reading the revisionist history where you finally understand that the white folk back in the mid to late 1800s weren't all heros...it just boggles my mind how badly the native-americans were treated...the sad part is that we could have co-existed peacefully but the greed of the white man overcame most treaties...not to say the white man was all wrong and the indian all right...it just could have, should have, been so much better....

When the white man won a battle it was a great victory, when the indian won, it was a massacre...double standards that I had to endure in all my history classes as I grew up...fortunately I wasn't satisfied and I learned the truths as best I could.

------------------
joe

"The word "genius" isn't applicable in football. A genius is a guy like Norman Einstein."
-Joe Theisman, NFL football quarterback and sports analyst

BroncoFan
10-06-2000, 05:25 PM
OK.
The reason I started this was because my 10th graders and I are starting the Civil War. The question was brought up in class. MOnday, we are going to look at the responses.

1. Civil War was about states' rights. Neither side...Especially the South did not like being told what to do.

Those from the South argued that their slaves were better off than the factory workers of the North. NOT all slave owners beat and tortured their slaves.

Watch the series North and South. It is a great example of the differences not just of North and south, but also of Good and Bad people of both sides.

Slavery was just a way to fan the flames.

Lincoln was quoted as saying if slavery would keep the Union together...He would allow it.

Lincoln's Wife, however, was an abolitionist but had relatives in the confederate army.

[This message has been edited by dawsonpa (edited 10-06-2000).]

KCWolfman
10-06-2000, 05:32 PM
Pam,
I had a feeling that you were using this for class.

If you could do us a favor and say so at the beginning of the thread, I think all of us would be willing contribute opinions, anecdotes and facts. And it would help us gauge our verbage for the intended audience.

[This message has been edited by TheFly (edited 10-06-2000).]

Yosef_Malkovitch
10-06-2000, 08:30 PM
Pam:

I hasten to say you are going to have a real "hot potato" when you start the discussion of the not-so "Civil War". No matter how neutral you try to be someone is going to accuse you of painting a different picture than they want their children to know.

Good luck....you're gonna need it.

mmaddog
****************

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"When you're not the lead dog in the pack, the view is always the same"

BroncoFan
10-06-2000, 09:37 PM
Fly,
Had I said so at the beginning, the responses may have been a bit more skewed. This way I get true feelings. http://www.ChiefsPlanet.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Don't worry, I will weed out the "#%$@#%"

http://www.ChiefsPlanet.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif

[This message has been edited by dawsonpa (edited 10-06-2000).]

AustinChief
10-06-2000, 10:19 PM
Clint - Your assumption that only hicks and idiots hang a Confederate Battle Flag is as prejudiced as the KKK who uses the flag.

Your argument loses credibility when you assume too much.

kcsammy
10-07-2000, 10:11 PM
This topic still divides family lines.

My family ties in the deep south go back to the very early 1700s.
My family was a pioneer family in Florida and yes, they did own slaves (a fact of which no one in the family is proud).

To some of us, the Confederdate flag is nothing more than a symbol of our southern hertiage. Others in the family detest the sight of it and everything it represents.
We do stand united that oppression of ANY race is wrong!

Someone posted about the southern code of honor. The true southern people are very proud people and that of code of honor did indeed exist.

Now to what's really important - football! Hope OU stomps KSU next Saturday and the Chiefs follow with a stomp of the Raiders on Sunday!