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BroncoFan
11-02-2000, 03:31 PM
Pam,
I don't mind spending more money but only if we go to a voucher system. The US Department of education cannot account for $400,000,000 in missing funds this year alone. The present system is a complete failure. Maybe they can find some of the funds to keep your district open there.
BIG DADDY

Big Daddy, YOu are misinformed once again. That money is not "missing" it is money earmarked for schools (like Decatur) that will lose revenue. There is a pool every year this is what you think is missing. The Federal Government spreads this out over the schools that are hurting the most and works its way down the list. When it is gone, that is it. We may receive 1/4th of the revenue that we lose due to lessor enrollment.

This fund is called--lost revenue fund.

TheFly
11-02-2000, 03:33 PM
Pam wrote,
"It has nothing to do with how good teachers are or are not. IT is strictly about money."

This is soley responsible for how bad our schools are today. The focus is on the money or the quality of the teaching and not on the kids.

Selfish teachers cans stay selfish as far as I'm concerned but they better damn well start getting results whether they have to "coach" or "teach" or whatever. <P>

TheFly
11-02-2000, 03:34 PM
Pam I hope your not ignorant enough to think that relying on the federal government is what is going to make a difference in the quality of education for our kids in the U.S.


That's a complete joke.

KCTitus
11-02-2000, 03:36 PM
Pam,
Why don't you answer the thousand other questions people asked you in you last thread before you post another.

BIG DADDY
Is sick and tired of your hit and run, or should I say post and run BS

AustinChief
11-02-2000, 03:37 PM
Pam,

I understand how you feel, and realize that this is an unpopular stance, but think about this:

If Wal-Mart loses customers and can't cover it's costs, does the government step in and help them?

Private school enrollment has increased some 110% in the last 5 years. Could it be possible that "lesser enrollment" is due to an inferior product?

That $400,000,000 million is WASTED. The schools that are failing will continue to fail, regardless of how much free money they get, because the focus is on funding rather than on education.

Again, don't take this the wrong way, I'm sure you're an excellent teacher. But there are too many out there to count that aren't, and can't be taken care of because of tenure. Not to mention the fact that there's usually more cops than teachers on campus anyway.

Just like in every other example in the modern world, capitalism is winning out over socialism. Public schools are no different. Put out an offering that is equally enticing as the public schools and maybe the competition would be better, but right now it sounds like you're resigning yourself to waiting for government handouts instead of trying to make your school better. Sound like the "new" American way.

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Parker
ChiefsPlanet Administrator

[This message has been edited by htismaqe (edited 11-02-2000).]

G_Man
11-02-2000, 03:41 PM
If the federal government shouldn't step in and help public schools, then they shouldn't help farmers, either.

TheFly
11-02-2000, 03:43 PM
She dodges questions almost as good as clinton dodges drafts. LOL

KC Hawke
11-02-2000, 03:44 PM
htismaqe,

are you suggesting that a decent education should be available to those who can pay for it?

AustinChief
11-02-2000, 03:45 PM
Clint,

I AGREE with you. I come from southern Iowa and all you can hear for miles on Saturday mornings is all the farmers drinking their coffee and BITCHING about how hard they have it. I won't even go into the multitude of reasons that they don't have any reason to ***** , as the forum doesn't allow that many characters in a post.

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Parker
[b]ChiefsPlanet Administrator</B>

G_Man
11-02-2000, 03:49 PM
Private schools are clearly superior to public schools as far as the quality of education received by students, but I'm not "in the loop" because I haven't been to public schools in so long, and my first kid won't be born for 5 months. Here are a couple of questions:

1. Is there any such thing as a "competitively priced" private school?

2. Are there private schools with no religious ties?

AustinChief
11-02-2000, 03:49 PM
CRP,

Currently in the small town I'm from, private school and public school cost roughly the same, once all the local fees and taxes are added in.

I'm not saying that education shouldn't be available, I'm saying that if schools want to end this paranoia of "waiting for a check" that Pam is talking about, they should concentrate on retaining students and improving enrollment, instead of spending all their time worrying about when they're going to get their check. That's precisely why private schools do so well. They concentrate on exactly those things because it increases REVENUE.

I feel strongly that EVERYONE should have to compete. It's not fair for some to work and slave and scratch and save, only to have others extend their hand and get a free ride from the government.

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Parker
[b]ChiefsPlanet Administrator</B>

KC Hawke
11-02-2000, 03:50 PM
you would complain if those bitching farmers didn't provide you a meal.

AustinChief
11-02-2000, 03:52 PM
Clint,

Yes there are private schools without religious ties, however, the privatization of schools gained impetus because of the lack of sensitivity to religious issues in school.

There's alot of private schools nowadays that are religious in name only. I went to a Methodist college, and the only time it came into play was that the Methodist church gave 2 kids a year scholarships to attend school there.

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Parker
[b]ChiefsPlanet Administrator</B>

AustinChief
11-02-2000, 03:54 PM
CRP,

I don't need to be lectured on "where my next meal is coming from." I grew up on a farm, as a member of a family of 6 generations of farmers. I know the business fairly well, and while it's not easy, it's not as hard as they make it sound.

Besides, 90% of the private farmers DON'T feed me or you or ANYONE. 700 out of their 800 acres is laying fallow, as part of a LAND MANAGEMENT program subsidized by the government.

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Parker
[b]ChiefsPlanet Administrator</B>

AustinChief
11-02-2000, 03:55 PM
HAHA, I just noticed that RedPant's initials match that governent program I was talking about...

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Parker
[b]ChiefsPlanet Administrator</B>

Duck Dog
11-02-2000, 03:59 PM
Clint and Chief Red Pants,

That is exactly why we need a voucher system.

This gives the same amount of tax money to everyone to spend at the school of your choice.

There will always be more options available to those that have more money (there is now), but you can bet that if every parent in america was armed with a couple of thousand $$ in vouchers, entrpreneuers would line up, founding schools to except those funds. You will be able to pick and choose which schools to send your child to.

Will some schools be of better quality than others? Of course, and they will get the majority of students. Bad schools go out of business, and good schools get rewarded with higher enrollment.

Luz
sounds good to me...

KC Hawke
11-02-2000, 04:07 PM
htismaqe,

your formula equalizing the cost of private and public schools doesn't jive with me.

public schools that have outrageous student to teacher ratios dont want to increase the student body.

And the reason private schools are successful is:
1.funded mainly by high student tuitions (which could be lost if the student is a disciplinary problem)
2.less students per teacher<BR>

BroncoFan
11-02-2000, 04:12 PM
What ever.

I am not going round and round in circles to make you guys feel better.

Here is my stand.
1. I am a good teacher. But our district is poor and we are losing revenue and need the federal money that is there.

2. Money has no bearing on how I am in a classroom, but I would not do this for free. I need a paycheck just like you all work for your check.

3. I would teach in a religious school that beleived the same way I did if there were a position open.

4. I have backed up my facts and will provide more about the republicans when I get home.


Pam
realizes she is in the minority

Big Daddy, when you can do things besides stand on the sideline cheering then I will answer you, but you must realize that I have classes and meetings and things. I am not free to post and gripe like you.

[This message has been edited by dawsonpa (edited 11-02-2000).]

KC Hawke
11-02-2000, 04:17 PM
htismaqe,

I'm sorry to hear that you have no sympathy for someone in a profession that cant rely on thier own efficiency and resourcefulness for guarunteed success.

sorry about the spelling folks, I have dyslexia http://www.ChiefsPlanet.com/ubb/frown.gif

[This message has been edited by Chief Red Pants (edited 11-02-2000).]

Kurt Surber
11-02-2000, 04:23 PM
That's alright CRP. I have a peach imspediment.

kcfan67
11-02-2000, 04:31 PM
Let me be the first to say this..Too much blame for student failure is placed on public schools. I dont really hear anyone mentioning parental failure. Most of the kids who fail in school today have little or no parental support or supervision. These kids are the ones who really dont have a chance to succeed.

Why would anyone want to go into a profession where you are overworked, underpaid, scrutinized, and expected to live a life that is constantly under the magnifying glass?

Fact- The average teacher only lasts about five years before "burning out" and changing professions.

Fact- There will be a 1 million teacher shortage by the year 2005.(Due to the baby boomer retirement)

Fact- Public schools are required to educate EVERYONE (ADHD, discipline problems, special ed, resource, abused, etc.)

Should there be schools that remove discipline problems(i.e. boot camp schools)

Should kids with severe learning disabilities not be educated in a regular classroom(maybe a trade school?)

There needs to be a lot of reform in the system, but I dont necessarily agree with vouchers(if it takes money away from public education)...I think it will only widen the gap between the rich and the poor.

[This message has been edited by Greg Herzig (edited 11-02-2000).]

BroncoFan
11-02-2000, 04:32 PM
Thanks.


Exactly

TheFly
11-02-2000, 04:52 PM
I'm sorry but that's a bunch of bull. I grew up in a single parent family and what made the difference was the role models provided at my high school and their assistance in helping me understand right from wrong.

Our litigious society now need legislation from congress just so a kid can get paddled if he or she deserves it. Timeouts don't work people.

Schools have problems because of the lack of focus by, teacher, principles, NEA and some part of that being families. I'm sorry if I don't shed a tear for teachers who don't want to go the extra mile when their worried about losing their job for not doing their job.

KC_red
11-02-2000, 05:03 PM
I posted this on the other thread and it lookls like that thread is starting to die. Maybe it will have a similar effect on this one.

"I agree that it should not be up to the school to teach children how to act like people and not animals. Here I will have to agree with Clint's earlier post that the responsibility for that lies soley on the parents. But with multi-income families come latch-key kids. So ask yourself this question, is my carreer more important that raising my family? If you think so, then don't have a family - it's that simple. Womens' lib. may have its positive aspects, but it's also forcing our kids to be raised in day-care and school. I know that comment will sound bad - I just think that somebody (mom or dad) needs to take care of business at home and stop worrying so much about the rat race."

The problems start MUCH earlier than high school for many children. The solution begins with you doing your part for your children. If you don't think that school should be in charge of raising your children (I don't. This isn't China for cryin' out loud), then do something about it as a parent. I'm sure the kids would like that better anyway - I know, I was one of them.

BroncoFan
11-02-2000, 05:04 PM
Excuse me but how do you know that teachers don't go the extra mile.

I was at work until 8 PM last night working on things for my kids. I am constantly doing something for them and love doing it. I am not an uncaring or ruthless teacher.

I teach 6 different classes a day and that means 6 different preps a day. I also am student council sponsor so that means that i fill machines and organize dances, homecomings ect. I also am Junior Class Sponsor so I help plan prom.

Oh and I do all this at the poorest district in Arkansas because I like it. I make probably 10-15 thousand less than teachers just 15 miles away and those teachers only teach one subject 6 different times.

Teachers that are truly good care about their students day and night. We don't and can't turn it off like a light bulb. We always take the weight of our jobs home.

I go the extra mile and then some for my kids and each and every one of them would tell you the exact same thing.

We do realize that time outs don't work, but that is all we are allowed to resort to. If parents taught their kids how to behave and the proper way to be in church, school, public then we could spend our class time actually teaching our subjects instead of BEHAVIOR.

THE REASON JOHNNY CANT READ IS BECAUSE THE PARENTS DON'T GIVE A "FLIP" AS LONG AS THEY DON'T HAVE TO DEAL WITH IT.

[This message has been edited by dawsonpa (edited 11-02-2000).]

[This message has been edited by dawsonpa (edited 11-02-2000).]

TheFly
11-02-2000, 05:12 PM
It's just not families people. Teachers have the kids for a majority of the year way longer than the parents do. That a bunch of bunk. Teachers are part of it most definitely.

The good schools will be able to recognize a lack of parental participation and be able to come up with solutions to the problem instead of using it as an excuse to fund a failing system. Period.

Why is crying and whining so prevalent in people who are ingrained to a failing way?

hmmmmmm

[This message has been edited by Dr. Red (edited 11-02-2000).]

AustinChief
11-02-2000, 05:16 PM
Pam,

I'll support you there. It's not your fault that you have to deal every day with kids who don't want, or deserve in some cases, to be there.

The responsibility here, whether of the parents, or the government, or anyone else, is sadly lacking.

We're taught from a very young age to blame anybody but ourselves for our problems.

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Parker
[b]ChiefsPlanet Administrator</B>

AustinChief
11-02-2000, 05:19 PM
CRP,

I paid an 11% local education surtax last year, and not only did I not have a child in the public school system in my district, I DON'T HAVE KIDS. I wasn't even married.

With my salary, yes private school isn't much more expensive than that surtax.

And what do you mean by this?
I'm sorry to hear that you have no sympathy for someone in a profession that cant rely on thier own efficiency and resourcefulness for guarunteed success.

I could respond, but I'm thoroughly confused by your myslexia! http://www.ChiefsPlanet.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

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Parker
ChiefsPlanet Administrator

[This message has been edited by htismaqe (edited 11-02-2000).]

BroncoFan
11-02-2000, 05:19 PM
Yes teachers have kids a majority of the year however the learning of correct and proper behavior starts at birth. By the time they get to High School, I should not have to be telling them to stop talking, take your hands off his arm, pick up your trash, no you can't just walk out of class because your friend is out side...ect.

Get the picture.

I am not crying or whining. I am pissed because you don't live it every day and don't have a clue what the hell you are saying.


Come spend a day with me. You would be enlightened.

That aside, I will agree that the decline in the behavior of the children is the direct result of both parents needing a paycheck.

However, we both work and my daughter knows how to behave in school, church and public. MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM We taught her.

AustinChief
11-02-2000, 05:23 PM
Pam, I can identify a problem for you...and it has to do directly with placing importance on money over kids...

How much do you make a year? (I don't really want to know, but I'd be willing to bet it's just above the poverty line...teachers get no respect)

Now compare that to how much the school administrator (superintendent or principal) makes.

I know in the school one of my friends worked at, it was a more than 8 to 1 ratio. Do you feel that a school, especially one that is struggling just to stay above water, is justified with such salaries?

------------------
Parker
[b]ChiefsPlanet Administrator</B>

BroncoFan
11-02-2000, 05:29 PM
I know. I make just a little over 22 thous. OUr principal makes over 70 and the superintendent makes over 90.

We teachers agree that that is where the cuts should be made, but it won't be.

Go ya one even further. We have four coaches for a school with less than 200 kids. And the football team all got nice new shiney helmuts this last season. But we can't adopt new social studies text books cause we lost 48 students to moves deaths ect.

Yea the priorities are off.

KC_red
11-02-2000, 05:37 PM
That teacher majority time arguement doesn't fly with me.

24 hrs in a day.
365 days in a year.
24 x 365 = 8760 hrs a year.

School year (approx.) = 9 months.
1 month (approx.) = 30 days.
1 day (approx.) = 8 hrs.
9 x 30 x 8 = 2160 hrs a year in school.

How is that the majority? That's not even 25%.

See DR's posts for why your kids have to be taught to behave in school instead of the 3 Rs. I'm not saying that you are a bad parent DR, but your sentiments are reiterated by many bad parents (I know first hand - have family who teach and several friends as well).

TheFly
11-02-2000, 05:38 PM
Listen, If your a good teacher pam you deserve more than that. If your a bad teacher pam you don't even deserve that.

Sorry, the stark reality is that kids start learning group manners and group etiquette starting in kindergarten. That's the facts. Some kids get a head start by having perfect parents but constantly complaining about the fact that kids in school don't have perfect parents takes away from the mission of the school to teach the kids everything they need to know to have a chance at success in the future.

Sorry is I don't accept that the parents is the be all end all in this argument because it's and intellectual strawman used by the those in the edcation industry to try and maintain the status quo.

KCTitus
11-02-2000, 05:42 PM
Pam,
Come on this is a football sight and your a teacher it is a helmet not helmut.

BIG DADDY
Still wants his spanking

Mosbonian
11-02-2000, 05:44 PM
Pam Dawson..."Oh and I do all this at the poorest district in Arkansas because I like it. I make probably 10-15 thousand less than teachers just 15 miles away and those teachers only teach one subject 6 different times."

If I may be so bold? Why not drive 15 miles up the road and pull in another 10-15K a year? What am I missing here Pam?<P>

BroncoFan
11-02-2000, 05:45 PM
Sorry, I teach history not spelling. Helmet

No it starts way before kindergarten. Even if that were true, why haven't they learned it by highschool?

I am the BEST teacher ask any one of my kids present or former.

TheFly
11-02-2000, 05:46 PM
Disco.....LOL .....let's carry that out a little further.......

Sleep then would be 8hrs a day......33%

School is 8hrs a day......33% not 25%

Time at home 8 hrs a day.....33%

Time at home breakdown.....

Extracurricular activites........of that 33% I would bet it takes at least 50% of that if not way more.

Dinner and getting ready for dinner.....maybe takes one hour......if the kid is lucky to be in a two family home where dinner is actually prepared. If it's a single family home the parent is usually bushed from a long day and cold cuts are the norm here. Then you don't even take into account that the kid in the teens get's a job so how much time does that take.

Sorry your timescale is bogus. Period.

School is where most kids learn these things unless their in a leave it to beaver household or in a rich environment and in the public school setting if a teacher assumes that's the setting their kids are coming from then they are a failing teacher. Period.

BroncoFan
11-02-2000, 05:49 PM
The fact that I am attatched to my kids and feel that they need some continuity in their lives because most are from broken homes and most teachers don't stick around.

I care about the kids and actually like the school and community. Thats why

TheFly
11-02-2000, 05:54 PM
Pam that's fine and dandy but are ya producing results so that are kids are not ignorant once they step out of the school that you teach in?

Caring is needed but caring with focus is needed much more.

Mosbonian
11-02-2000, 05:55 PM
Pam: That's cool but it doesn't sould like you can have it both ways. The two choices seem to be:

A.Stick with what you are doing and not making what you think you should.

B.Drive 15 miles and make an extra 15K a year.

To each their own, but I would be spending 15 minutes a day on the road and bonding with new kids.

Mosbonian
11-02-2000, 05:56 PM
Pam: That's cool but it doesn't sould like you can have it both ways. The two choices seem to be:

A.Stick with what you are doing and not making what you think you should.

B.Drive 15 miles and make an extra 15K a year.

To each their own, but I would be spending 15 minutes a day on the road and bonding with new kids.

BroncoFan
11-02-2000, 05:58 PM
Of course my kids are learning. I make it interesting. And they trust me to let their guards and "toughness" down to let themselves learn....


I thought about it last year driving the extra miles but I really wanted to be a stable influence for the kids

TheFly
11-02-2000, 05:58 PM
Our teachers get so caught up in the proms and so forth that they forget that they need to teach the kids what will be on the tests.

Can you not teach the kids what's on the tests in a way that taps into your and the classes creativity in a different way? Yes you can and if your a good teacher you'll find a way to make that happen and not excuse your way out of it.

What I'm seeing from your type is that your proud that you don't teach the kids in your class what's needed for them to succeed in the future. Like there is some kind of moral victory for you to stick it to the establishment by dumbing down your classroom and not prepare them for the work they are going to need to have completed to compete in a college atmosphere.

Mosbonian
11-02-2000, 05:58 PM
oops! Post X 2........my bad. http://www.ChiefsPlanet.com/ubb/smile.gif

KCTitus
11-02-2000, 06:01 PM
Pam,
Or with a voucher system you could start your own school.

BIG DADDY
I know this may make me look like a right wing extremist.

TheFly
11-02-2000, 06:01 PM
Pam I based that last post on your insistence that you stated you don't teach what is on the test in a defiant manner.

BroncoFan
11-02-2000, 06:10 PM
IN the classroom I teach what the students need to be successful. I teach what they need for good test scores. I also have new and exciting ways to teach boring material but I don't agree with the teach to the test principle.

Prom is just an activity that takes away our FREE TIME after the teaching day is over. Homecoming week I was never in bed before 1 am and will be that way again colors day.

Red, you will have something to say with anything just because you think are right. I am going to leave for a while and just wanted you to know that I was not hit and running.


[This message has been edited by dawsonpa (edited 11-02-2000).]

Luzap
11-02-2000, 06:13 PM
To hell with the missing money in Education, where's the missing money in my wallet?

TheFly
11-02-2000, 06:14 PM
Pam as long as what you teach shows results better than the national average or the state average then I'm cool with your teaching methods. If your not setting the standard with your kids test scores than I think your methods are not good and you need to rethink your methods or get out of teaching since your not producing the results the kids need.

BroncoFan
11-02-2000, 06:15 PM
I don't believe I stated that I "DON"T teach to the test, I believe I stated that I don't agree with the thought. Expecially History. YOu can't take an event here and then jump over there with history. That is what those that teach to the test would have us do.

That works fine with math, science reading grammar ect... but history kinda needs to go in order.

[This message has been edited by dawsonpa (edited 11-02-2000).]

BroncoFan
11-02-2000, 06:16 PM
My kids social studies scores for last year were in the 87th percentile. That is they scored as well as or better then 87 % of the kids that age and grade that took the test. Good enough for you?<P>

TheFly
11-02-2000, 06:27 PM
Pam if those results are true than great. I'm just making sure that you understand that there is a line of thinking out there that excuses are getting old. Change is coming. Be ready for it or get run over by it. If there is one thing consistent in life it's that of change. Especially when our schools are sucking so bad that change is despartely needed.

BroncoFan
11-02-2000, 07:26 PM
Every so often the pendulum swings and some bureaucrats who either have forgotten what it is like in the classroom, or who have never been in the classroom think they know what is best for the schools. I have seen the open class, phonics, sight words, back to phonics, inclusion, mainstreaming ect swing through the schools depending on which side has the ear at the time.

Dr. Red
Are you a teacher? If not have you ever volunteered on a major level in a classroom for more than a day?

I am curious as you think you know about what it takes to be a teacher or to be in the classroom.

BroncoFan
11-02-2000, 07:44 PM
1. yes those numbers are true

2. Excuses for what, parents raising rude, disrespectful heathens that don't know how to behave for 5 minutes let alone during school. YOu are right, there is no excuse.

Parents need to wake up. <P>

TheFly
11-02-2000, 08:00 PM
Pam,

I was in the school of education as a chemistry major at K.U. for the year I played football for K.U. I did not get into pharmacy school so my plans changed. I'm very schooled in what it takes to teach people something. I have ended up with a Business Administration Degree for the sole fact that schools don't give teachers enough control in the classroom.

TheFly
11-02-2000, 08:06 PM
Sure but equally teachers need to get a clue as much if not more than the parents.

BroncoFan
11-02-2000, 08:12 PM
That is cool that you are schooled about teaching, but let me tell you this, There is a world of difference in actual classroom experience and you are right. We don't have enough freedom in the classroom.

EMZ96
11-02-2000, 08:13 PM
Is anyone else bothered by Titus's post #47??

Jesus Christ, it scares me that people like that are allowed to cast a ballot this Tuesday.

Mark-
sees the price we must pay for our democracy.

[This message has been edited by revolver808 (edited 11-02-2000).]

BroncoFan
11-02-2000, 08:15 PM
a clue as to what????????

Get real, come to school with me for a week, you would understand.

I teach with a teacher that has taught for over 30 years and says that she has seen the behavior get worse and worse.

BroncoFan
11-02-2000, 08:18 PM
Maybe it is because of Parents that are too eager to believe that "their precious child" would never do that and it must be the teachers fault.


You would not be one of those would you??????????

TheFly
11-02-2000, 08:29 PM
Pam, are you trying to state that all teachers are above reproach because teachers have a immediate knowledge that everything is the parent's fault?

chief18
11-02-2000, 08:37 PM
To revolver808,

You should elaborate on why KC Titus' post #47 is so scary.

It's obvious he's just a little concerned, as a result of mounting taxation, over the perpetural shrinking of his wallet.

Too, quite possibly, he feels that, maybe, it's time publicly funded institutions figure out how to be effective and efficient with what they have, instead of squandering what they're granted, expecting more, and whining when they don't get it.

I guess I'd be fat, dumb and lazy, too, if I knew my income / business was guaranteed for eternity.

<P>

Yosef_Malkovitch
11-02-2000, 08:52 PM
Pam:

"Maybe it is because of Parents that are too eager to believe that "their precious child" would never do that and it must be the teachers fault."

Evertime I have heard that statement from a teacher(or something that bears a resemblance to that remark) I want to spit.

Why do teachers want to push all the blame back on the parent's instead of share the blame. I agree that it is the Parent's responsibility to help educate the child, but quite frankly it is just as much the DUTY of the teacher to foster the desire to learn!!!!!!!!!!!

mmaddog
*********<BR>

kcfan67
11-02-2000, 09:15 PM
Everyone on this thread is so eager to point fingers(just like our presidential canidates) instead of really offering any doable suggestions for the reformation of public education in this country. Isnt an equal education for ALL people one of the basic foundations of the constitution?

Sick of finger-pointing and "buzz words"...I just want to hear some new ideas and solutions for improvement...

TheFly
11-02-2000, 09:33 PM
Well greg,

It seems to me you haven't been listening to what bush has done in texas. Check that out.

Other than that why don't you bring something forward if your so frustrated.

I'm more than willing to listen.

Chieficus
11-02-2000, 09:58 PM
In response to revolver808's question in reply #57, I'd have to say, 'No, I'm not bothered by KCTitus's reply #47.' Even if I hadn't already known that KCTitus is very well-informed about politics and has a good sense of humor, I wouldn't be worried by such a comment as his. Fellow American making funny cracks about how our taxes are spent is a part of the fabric of our country that I'd never want to lose.

I say, Hooray for KCTitus! and long may our votes cancel each other (even though this time each of us will probably vote for someone other than Gore).

KC_red
11-02-2000, 10:07 PM
Okay Red, I finally got back to see your response. Unfortunately I don't think your calculations are correct:

"Sleep = 33%" Okay, I'll give you this one.

"School = 33% not 25%" Actually, the 25% was an overage because I even included weekends. Unless your children attend school year round, 8 hours a day including weekends, school accounts for less than 25% of their time.

And you say that my timescale is bogus? I actually gave a numerical basis for my calculations including an overage attributed to weekends. So, let's recap:

8760 hrs in a year. Okay?

9 months of school in a school year. Okay?
22 days in a month (in this case, I'll remove 8 days to account for weekends)
8 hours in a school day.

So, we have 9 x 22 x 8 = 1584 hours of school a year, or roughly 18% of the time available in the entire calendar year (8760 hrs as above).

I still don't see how that's a majority. PERIOD. Must be that "fuzzy math".

For simplicity, we'll suppose that this child is still under 12 years old and is still influenced by his/her parents and not working for Kathy Lee. I don't see what the problem with sharing in your child's extracurricular activities or sharing conversation over dinner is. It is YOUR child, not the State's. As I mentioned before, I guess it all depends on your priorities.

I guess if it is the school's responsibilty to raise the children then they will need closer to 33% of the time to succeed, but alas, they are only at about 18%.

You have a lot of peiods in your post. Sounds pretty absolute. I'm guessing that you still won't get my calculations as simple as they are.

KC Hawke
11-02-2000, 10:11 PM
htismaqe,

in response to #27

If you send your child to private school, will you get a waiver from the portion of your tax that goes to public education?

And the profession I was refering to was farming . . . but since thats your bag . . . I haven't much ground to stand on.

Furthermore, I would appreciate if you would not poke fun at my having Dyslexia. There are many things that people take for granted that don't come so easy to me.

Thanx,
John

------------------
C.R. Pants
(The Resident Liberal)

BroncoFan
11-02-2000, 10:16 PM
I don't think that all teachers are above reproach. I am speaking for the few I know and the kids and some parents I know.

I had a student that I assigned ISS. He was a major pain and I had had enough. I gave him more warnings than he deserved and finally I wrote him up. ( and before you accuse me of bad dicipline, you don't know this kid)

The next morning his mother came to chew me out because I was probably picking on her poor little boy.

In the end after I explained everything and got him to admit his faults in front of his mother she changed her tune

Now she admits that maybe her angel doesn't always wear his halo.

I admit some teachers are bad and can't handle things, but as all teachers are not great, neither are they all bad

the only thing all teachers are is OVERWORKED AND UNDERPAID.

[This message has been edited by dawsonpa (edited 11-02-2000).]

kcfan67
11-02-2000, 10:23 PM
Pam..You forgot underappreciated!!

BroncoFan
11-02-2000, 10:28 PM
Oh yea, thanks.

I don't think I am getting through.

kcfan67
11-02-2000, 10:36 PM
Dr. Red-

I really think both canidates are really out of touch with educational issues. As for my suggestions..did you read #20? How will either canidate deal the impending teacher shortage that is about to happen in our nation in the coming years? What do you propose?

As far as some of Bush's proposals..I dont see how giving schools with higher test scores more money will solve anything. There are too many varibles here. Teachers can control their instruction, management, etc.. But what about accomodating all of the different ability levels of students(ESL, ADHD, etc). Whether you would like to admit it or not, that is huge part of test scores. I do believe in teacher accountability, but as they say "the apple doesnt fall from the tree" is a very true analogy 90% of the time. Some kids that are highly intelligent are just not good test takers either. Kids today are tested out the wazoo. I am just not a firm believer that these tests are the only way to assess knowledge and instruction. I believe this policy would also encourage a lot of cheating by teachers, administrators, and students.

BroncoFan
11-02-2000, 10:39 PM
Greg,

Thanks, that helps what I was trying to say.

HOw is the new school? I guess you know Decatur is in a world of hurt. We lost 48 kids.

KC Hawke
11-02-2000, 10:40 PM
Last school year I agreed to talk with 7th-8th graders about my line of work.

So for ONE day I spoke with the students and tried to keep them awake and entertained throughout thier science class (50 minutes). I did 7 periods with a lunch break.

After school I was ABSOLUTELY exhausted . . .when I got home all I could do was shake nervously. That school day felt like three of my longest work days combined.
A lot of my effort went to retaining the attention of the students that felt it was a day off from learning.

I feel sorry for the teachers that work hard for 180 days (Texas) and don't get the wage of a true professional. Teachers definately have my respect . . . simply because they are obligated to teach EVERY student that sits before them.<BR>

KC_red
11-02-2000, 10:41 PM
We used to say that IQ = Irrelevant Questions.

kcfan67
11-02-2000, 10:47 PM
It's good..It is very different from Bville. I didnt realize Decatur paid so little. What you make is a crime. I think these guys enjoy trying to piss you off. It is hard to understand a situation when you are not in it. Im just glad to be done with parent/teacher conferences. Hope all is well...

BroncoFan
11-02-2000, 10:50 PM
NOw you are beginning to see.

YOu had it easy. Try teaching the ones that think nothing of talking, horseplay, walking out the door to talk to their buddies ect... as well as the ones that want to sleep.

This is the behavior that needs to be addressed from birth on. My daughter started learning to behave by learning in Church. She never went to the nursery I always wanted her with me. We hardly ever had a problem.<BR>

BroncoFan
11-02-2000, 10:53 PM
Yea, Decatur is the poorest and lowest paying district in Benton County. But at least I make more than 20 thous.

Do you like Springdale better? We will be in Kansas next year. I will raise my pay by at least 10 grand per year just by moving back.

But I will really miss my kids. They will be mad when I tell them I won't be there the next year. You can imagine with the pay that they hardly ever have the same teachers more than two years in a row.

kcfan67
11-02-2000, 11:00 PM
Springdale is much better. I work at the school that received the Shannon Wright Award(best middle school in the state). They really have their act together. Springdale also pays the best in the state all the way around(still not that great). I really feel for teachers in other districts though..I dont see how you make it.

BroncoFan
11-02-2000, 11:04 PM
Chief Red Pants,

Thanks to mainstreaming, I have three 8th graders that can not read in the same class.

My opinion is that they need to be in a self-contained class until they learn to read. Those I mentioned before dictate that they be mainstreamed. So they are a constant dicipline problem...adhd ect... and I spend the majority of 4th hour keeping order most days because those students could care less about classroom dicipline. They live for suspension.

BroncoFan
11-02-2000, 11:11 PM
I would not make it if I were the only income. Luckly Mark works at Wal-mart Home office. That is our major source of income.

EMZ96
11-02-2000, 11:11 PM
DanT-

The fact that KCTitus is/isn't well informed about politics is irrelevant to this discussion. I would hope that it can be a reasonable assumption in this forum that we will abstain from attacking each other's knowledge of politics. Obviously everyone is concerned about making ends meet and no one appreciates excessive taxation, that too should be a pre-existing assumption in any political forum. I suppose in my bleeding heart liberal mind, some things take precendence over my disposable income. If Mr. Titus was simply being sarcastic, my apologies for playing the dunce.

Mark

AustinChief
11-02-2000, 11:45 PM
Pam - Okay, lets say you get your way and there is no voucher system ever placed. The people of Kansas City have faithfully paid their taxes to the district for over 2 decades and not received anything to show for it except a failed bussing program, failed magnet schools, overcrowding as an average of one school a year is shut down for the last seven years, and the loss of national accredidation.

I was one of those taxpayers for 3 years. So what can you offer the people of Kansas City? YOUR system has failed and failed miserably. The KC district is a democratic party controlled one and has received democratic national funds for almost a decade, and it does not work.

Are you stating we should be offered a refund from the local, state, and federal government? If I buy something at Dillards and it does not meet my expectations, I get my money back - this seems to be the same thing.

YOUR system is a dismal failure in the Kansas City school district, it is time to try someone else's system.

Luzap
11-03-2000, 07:19 AM
Revolver: The boogey man here. yes, it was a sarcastic post and no it wasnt said completely in jest either.

I think the 'funding' for education has skyrocketed while the quality has deteriorated. A prime example in the failure of the current system can be witnessed right in KC's back yard. over 1 BILLION dollars spent on magnet KC schools and it's a dismal failure.

Obviously, money does not cure all ills when it comes to education.

You shouldnt be scared that I want to keep more of the money I earn for me and my family. I would hope it would be your desire to do the same for you and yours. If not, please feel free to write a check on my behalf to cover my share of taxes for this coming year, that way all these wonderful govt programs wont suffer from my lack of 'investment'.

AustinChief
11-03-2000, 08:56 AM
CRP:

First of all, I wasn't poking fun at your dyslexia...it was a South Park reference. Sorry if I offended you.

In the district I lived in, you did not get a tax waiver if your kids went to private school, or even if you didn't have kids. If you lived in the district, you paid the tax. It pissed me off even more that they were giving the casino down the road loads of tax breaks to save it from going under.

Pam:

It's interesting to me that you're a social studies teacher. I have a degree in history and attended graduate school in the field. During my undergrad years, I was one of only two in my department that WEREN'T education/history double majors. Between the disparity I saw there, and what I learned later in life, it was startling. Everything that I learned about history, historiography, and the philiosophy of history was heralded as WRONG by the education department. The average history teacher coming out of my department spent 25% of their time in history class, 25% in behavioral and social psych classes, and the rest of their time in "new wave" "let's make the kids feel good about themselves" classes.

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Parker
[b]ChiefsPlanet Administrator</B>

TheFly
11-03-2000, 09:14 AM
That's a bunch of bunk. Quote "what good would it do to pay schools more money with higher test scores"..........LMAO. Teacher salaries would be higher at the schools that had better test scores. Real learning would be taking place at the schools with higher test scores. Parents would put their vouchers at the better performing schools.

The schools that suck would shrivel up and lose out to the schools that are in it to really teach our children.

I'm tired of the teachers thinking it's all the parents fault. Teachers need to get over that hurdle. Period.

TheFly
11-03-2000, 09:16 AM
Basically our system would be more motivated to produce higher test scores.........regardless of the parents or other situations.

BroncoFan
11-03-2000, 05:18 PM
I disagree.

Test scores are not true indicators of performance. One of my best students could tell you anything orally in a normal setting would freeze on the SAME information at a test setting.


Testing is not a true indicator Observation and performance is.

AustinChief
11-03-2000, 10:42 PM
Awaiting a response from Pam on my last post....

Personally, I believe that any school district that has failed as badly as the KC school district not only deserves to lose 1/4 of its funding, but also offer a voucher system to all parents, and fire every single member of the school council.

And Again I ask you Pam, since the current system is an obvious failure, what is wrong with instituting a voucher system in poorly run districts like the KC one?

TheFly
11-03-2000, 10:51 PM
What freaking world are you living in Pam?

To damn funny. Yeah totally realistic Pam. Totally. There's no way in hell you can actually tell me that there are enough teachers to do that effectively and still keep a kid on a learning pace that meets any kind of standard.

LOL......If your a good teacher you'll have the kids ready to perform on the test or you'll be looking for a job soon enough.

BroncoFan
11-04-2000, 12:58 AM
Dr Red,

Come spend a day with me in the classroom. YOu have NO clue and no right until you walk in my shoes.

Russ, I don't have the answers but I don't feel the voucher system will work. Furthermore I don't really care as long as I have a job and my daughter is secure with college funds.

Personally, I think that you all should try to teach. If you have any college, just sub for a few days. YOU might be suprised.


YOu--NOne of you (or myself) are perfect even if you all think you know it all. We are all just trying to make it and with the way things are going, none of us is doing very good.


Go critisize the salary cap ect. UNTIL you have been in a classroom for more than a week, shut up about what you think you know but have no clue.

BroncoFan
11-04-2000, 01:00 AM
And go on and start critisizing me. I really don't give a ****. And yes I am a teacher and yes I said ****. I am tired of you all thinking you know how to do my job or how to be.

On this subject, I think most of you are a bunch of self-righteous know it all jerks who don't have a clue.

[This message has been edited by dawsonpa (edited 11-04-2000).]

Chieffan
11-04-2000, 09:43 AM
Dawson
If what you speak about your love for your job is true, that is great. You are a dying breed.

Many of my friends in college were educaion majors. It scares me to know that they are teachers. There is little pride left in your field.

------------------
TWB

[This message has been edited by 47mack (edited 11-04-2000).]

AustinChief
11-04-2000, 10:42 AM
"Russ, I don't have the answers but I don't feel the voucher system will work.

Furthermore I don't really care as long as I have a job and my daughter is secure with college funds."

Pam - Personally, I dont mind that you stated the above. In fact, I appreciate your honesty. But it kind of voids all of your earlier statements, doesnt it?

Personally, I have never complained about teachers. I have the greatest respect for teachers. You hold the future of our country for minimal pay. I hold your bosses, unions, and democratic leaders in contempt for either blinding you to the truth or having you spit out the rhetoric company line even though you know it doesnt work (as you finally admitted to).

You dont care if your system works, you just want to continue it.

You are guessing a voucher system will not work. I have proof that your system doesnt work. Regardless of you and your daughter, the country's system doesnt work, period. It is time to change it. Since the dems have no better ideas over the course of their last fumbling decade, it is time to try someone else's ideas.

Yosef_Malkovitch
11-04-2000, 12:35 PM
Pam:

"the only thing all teachers are is OVERWORKED AND UNDERPAID."

IMO, yes and no!!!!!

I have seen some teachers who give their heart and soul to teach our youth and get little pay or recognition. Those are the people who deserve better pay and benefits.

But I have also witnessed the flip side of teachers. The ones who could care less about doing anything but showing up, throwing the material at the students in hopes that it sticks and then barely taking the time to explain to those who need extra assistance.

Then there are those who ridicule a student just because they can't grasp a concept as quickly as the rest of the class. Or how about the Gym teacher who ridiculed a less than athletic student (in front of the rest of the class) because he couldn't make a lay-up or make a free throw. Don't tell me they don't exist because i have witnessed them happening right before my eyes.

Or how about the young science teacher who spends more time trying to impress(and woo) the new Art teacher next door than he does teaching his class.

I spent a week evaluating teachers(good & bad) as part of a Parent Oversight Committee and was impressed and appalled at the same time. I also, as part of that same experience, volunteered to be a teachers assistant and/or substitute teacher for a week. It was an eye-opening experience from both points of view.

Please don't try to paint ALL teachers as "Joan of Arc's" in the making. You get what you put into your job, no different than mine or anyone else on this board.

mmaddog
*****************<BR>

kcfan67
11-04-2000, 08:15 PM
Mark
Being a teacher myself, I agree with what you state. We are not paid based on performance. A crappy teacher makes the same amount as an excellent teacher(assuming they have the same years of experience). But how do you assess that performance? By kids test scores alone? Standardized testing is arguably geared toward caucasian english speaking students. What about my district that is 20 percent Hispanic? I have a real problem with my pay being based on the score of a child who just came from Mexico who speaks little English. Or what about the kid who just found out his parents are getting a divorce? Should his test scores reflect my pay? What about all of the kids with learning disabilities? What about the districts who might cheat to up their test scores?

I have no problem with teacher accountability..just do not solely base it on test scores alone. How do you measure a teacher's caring, patience, understanding, or diligence?

Any suggestions?<BR>

TEX
11-04-2000, 08:55 PM
Oh I just love the idea that money solves everything. All from people that based on their political ideology claim to know more than us, are more compassionate than us.....

Fifteen years ago I heard this exchange....
Your son will be sent back to his home school because of lack of effort here at Graff Vo-tech. Well.. my son gets a "D" for just showing up at Glendale.... Well maam, he gets an "F" here for that.

Who is wrong here? A school system herds children from grade to grade so their graduation rate is high (and therefore the matching funds). Parents that use the school system as a dumping ground for kids. A school system that encourages this "baby sitting notion" by keeping kids after school because the parents are too busy to come and get them. Good students that realize that there is no reason to excel because that makes them outcasts. The blame is endless.....

First of all, if you can't do the work you don't matriculate (PERIOD). Secondly, kids that need special help or settings to learn the work should get them (end the mainstraming nonsense, not all people are alike). Thirdly, malcontents in the school should be sent to a special environment (detention). Everyone must pass a basic set of skills (no exceptions) to get their diploma and release from school.

It is not the responsibility of the government to make people learn, only that the schools are safe and provide a learning environment for all students. If the 3% are causing a problem, get rid of them. Then the 97% can learn.

If you are 10 years old and still doing first grade work, thats your problem not the schools<BR>

TheFly
11-04-2000, 10:29 PM
That's exactly what is wrong with our teachers pam. The self righteous, know it all, blame it on the parents attitude is pathetic and is an excuse for poor teaching.

I hope your not as pathetic teaching as you sound.

Yosef_Malkovitch
11-04-2000, 11:01 PM
Greg:

I wish I had all the good answers....

Being on the Parent Oversight Committee gave me a unique perspective, but it was only for a week. I doubt i could give a fair assessment of how to fix the problem.

mmaddog
***************

kcfan67
11-05-2000, 06:10 AM
Oxford..
I agree with most of you are saying as well. I think mainstreaming is a bad idea. I think some of these kids might be better off at a trade school instead of the regular classroom(granted parental permission is given) . Most of the rising cost it takes to educate a student is due to increase in special ed teachers and huge amount of paper work they do.

I also agree that chonic discipline problems shold be sent to a boot camp type of school.

Wasnt it Hank Stram that said "We have to keep matriculatin' the ball down the field"?
Not that I agree with passing students that need to be retained. I recommend retention for about ten students every year and about two of the ten are actually retained. Parents have to give permission for me to retain a student.

KCWolfman
11-05-2000, 02:03 PM
100! http://www.ChiefsPlanet.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

elvislivesinkc
11-05-2000, 02:08 PM
101! I made a big flaming file folder! http://www.ChiefsPlanet.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

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Frazod

CRUSH YOUR ENEMIES, SEE THEM DRIVEN BEFORE YOU, AND HEAR THE LAMENTATIONS OF DENISE! DEATH TO OAKLAND!