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View Full Version : If Grbac has a bad year, will the Chiefs go after Trent Green?


Woodrow
09-07-2000, 12:47 AM
Lets say that Grbac really has a bad year. In Raye's offense, that wouldn't surprise me especially if we fall behind early and often this season. Would the Chiefs pursue Trent Green? Or if Grbac was released, would the cap hit be too much. Could he be traded for Green and back up Warner. Again are the dollars involved too high here too? Wpuld Al Saundars come back to be the Chiefs OC? Any thoughts?

B2chiefsfan
09-07-2000, 01:00 AM
I guess it depends on how they end up doing this year. If we are 6-10 or worse I'll bet Gun and Grbac will be gone. I'm not all that high on Green, but I've only seen him a couple of times when he was w/ the Skins. I'm dreaming of Michael Vick for the Chiefs, but I know it's only a dream(sigh..). I'd like to possibly bring in Al Saunders as Head Coach if Gun is sent packing. Get him a solid D-Coord and let him develop a young QB, in a QB friendly system.

B2chiefsfan
09-07-2000, 01:25 AM
I guess it depends on how they end up doing this year. If we are 6-10 or worse I'll bet Gun and Grbac will be gone. I'm not all that high on Green, but I've only seen him a couple of times when he was w/ the Skins. I'm dreaming of Michael Vick for the Chiefs, but I know it's only a dream(sigh..). I'd like to possibly bring in Al Saunders as Head Coach if Gun is sent packing. Get him a solid D-Coord and let him develop a young QB, in a QB friendly system.

ColoradoChief
09-07-2000, 08:14 AM
Forget Green, this team needs to go 0-16 and start rebuilding. They can take a QB in the draft, hopefully Mike Vick, if not, Drew Brees or Quincy Carter will suffice.

PostalChief
09-07-2000, 08:16 AM
Cannibal is correct. Green is a pipe dream at best.

Our best bet is to hire someone who can recognize QB talent, then draft a qb, then hire a guy who knows how to DEVELOP A QB!


Then again, maby Green would be easier....

elvislivesinkc
09-07-2000, 08:17 AM
Gee, I don't know...maybe we should give Grbac one more year to develop if he has a bad season.

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Bob KCFan Hope
09-07-2000, 08:20 AM
The Rams wouldn't trade a guy from their practice squad for Grbac. Plus, they won't let go of Green unless they can't renegotiate his salary.
I agree with the folks who say we need to develop a QB and get a guy who knows how to do it.

Woodrow
09-07-2000, 08:21 AM
Cannibal,
I know you're behind Vick 100% and so am I but he's just a Soph. Has he even hinted that he would come out early? Shoot, Houston just got a team and everyone around here has Michael Vick as the Texan's first QB. If he stays in school, he'll be drafted #1 for the 2002 season. The Texan's pick first, and with Gary Kubiak coming back to Houston (he was born here and playd high school ball here) in all probability to be the franchises first coach who will be offensive-minded, it would be very hard for Vick not to consider that. I'm just curious if it's just wishful thinking on your part? I'd like to jump on the Vick wagon myself!

Devin Vierth
09-07-2000, 08:21 AM
Cannibal -

At this point, it doesn't matter who the Chiefs take in the draft as long as they get a shot at one of the top 4 QB's. The fans deserve better than to lay their hopes on EG or Trent Green for that matter. They are not the future of this team. EG was part of a wrong solution that we decided would be the answer to our QBOTF questions several years ago. If EG won't accept a back-up role at reduced dollars next year (and he won't), we need to wack him. No if's, and's or but's about it. This team needs a cleansing.

Bob KCFan Hope
09-07-2000, 08:30 AM
At least a QB and feature back anyway.

ColoradoChief
09-07-2000, 08:33 AM
The Chiefs should do everything in their power to obtain him.

I'd love to be able to hear "Vick to Morris... TOUCHDOWN KANSAS CITY!"

And I'd be able to put up with an 0-16 season this year if they fire Peterson and get a young QB in the draft next year.

Kurt Surber
09-07-2000, 08:37 AM
Something tells me a winning season with CP at the helm would make Cannibal more miserable than 10 straight 10-loss seasons.

Devin Vierth
09-07-2000, 08:37 AM
Amen to that!

Woodrow
09-07-2000, 08:37 AM
Has anybody heard ANYTHING that would even suggest that Michael Vick is coming out early? He's just a soph.

Kurt Surber
09-07-2000, 08:38 AM
TX: yes, he has said he's considered it.

elvislivesinkc
09-07-2000, 08:39 AM
If not Vick, then Brees, Quincy Carter, or even a trade for Bishop.

After Grbac finishes this season, I don't think it's going to take much at QB to impress the hell out of us.

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Kurt Surber
09-07-2000, 08:42 AM
After THIS season?! I seem to recall last year that people were willing to go with Scott Mitchell, Stoney Case and any other AFC QB.

elvislivesinkc
09-07-2000, 08:43 AM
Titus,

I can't speak for Cannibal, but I really would rather see the Chiefs go 3-13 and clean house, than go 9-7 or 10-6 with either a first round playoff exit or a narrow miss of the playoffs.

It's time for the Chiefs to take a few steps back, in order to move forward in the future. I can't tolerate a mediocre Chiefs team any longer.

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Devin Vierth
09-07-2000, 08:51 AM
Titus -

It has been since Okoye and Word, that the Chiefs were feared as an offense. When we had Joe Montanna and Marcus Allen, they were in their twilight, and not nearly the players they once were. We have waited too long to get more offensive punch and depended on our defense way too much to keep us in games.

I think fans want to see some pop in the Offense and the ability to do more than 3 - out. CP has not shown the propensity or the ability to draft quality offensive talent. If that means 0-16 to get what we need, so be it. But to continue their current path is a longer death than I want to face.

Kurt Surber
09-07-2000, 08:52 AM
Let us not forget how many times in the 80's that the Chiefs won 3,4 or even 5 games before they 'cleaned house'.

One 3-13 season will not remake this team. Indy had 15 years of picking an average of 8th overall and 3 times had the #1 pick overall with a #1 and #2 overall one of those years.

I doubt you'd be happy with 15 years of sub .500 football as long as we dont have Carl.

Dont get me wrong here, I would love a philosophy change and more focus put on the offensive side of the football. I dont believe that Carl is the one that is driving the philosophy. I believe that is the coaching staff and they are still clinging to the failures of Marty ball.

Woodrow
09-07-2000, 08:53 AM
Clint,
the first step backwards was keeping the Stooges. They'll see to it that you get your wish.

The thing that gets me is that some people really believe that the Chiefs will finish 9-7 to 10-6 as usual. I suspect that ARROWHEAD comes into play here. Well, this Chiefs team is not the norm. They have lost their last 2 regular season games at Arrowhead and without a significant home firld advantage, and dominent defense this team is sunk. I had predicted 6-10 before the season and IMO the Chiefs will be lucky yo reach that.

I too hope a full rebuild is in order. If a collapse is in the cards - so be it! Grbac is NOT the answer. IMHO he represents a QBOTF plan that went bad. He's a backup and that's it. Also the RRBC will NOT work. That is something that really needs to go too!

elvislivesinkc
09-07-2000, 08:57 AM
Of course, rebuilding won't work if you have a dunce making the draft picks.

Maybe Lamar should back a Brink's truck up to Bill Parcell's home.

Tom Donahoe will be looking for work, from what I've read.

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DoktorSmith
09-07-2000, 08:57 AM
Grbac was brought in here to replace a legend, whether on the downside of his career or not, he was still better than 75% of the QBs in the league. He leaves, Grbac, has one season in the West Coast offense, then along comes, no offense Jimmy Raye. How is it possible that the continuing problems are Elvis Grbac. However, I agree it is time for a complete overhaul, but I do not think Trent Green is the answer. The trend is for mobile QBs, of which Vick fills the bill, but I think the chances of getting him are remote, at best. Carter of Georgia, is a better possibility, but forget Drew Brees, he is shorter version of Elvis.

revolver808
09-07-2000, 08:58 AM
Vick is only a sophomore & won't be available until at least the 2002 draft if he came out a year early. I never thought Green was that good with the Redskins but he gets a lot of hype. If we could get one of the top QB's in the draft next year, it may be worth going 2-14. But the 2001 draft doesn't look that great QB-wise.

Kurt Surber
09-07-2000, 08:58 AM
Pat: agreed, again, I do want more focus put on the offensive side of the football.

It's obvious KC doesnt value a passing game or KC would have more than 4 WR's on the roster.

KC does not have RB..NOT ONE on the roster. - Cloud is ST'er, not considered a RB.

QB is average at best.

No offensive focus.

This year's schedule is the one thing that could give us a high draft pick. However, I dont see Carl going anywhere anytime soon.

AustinChief
09-07-2000, 09:00 AM
Clint,

Donahoe's name has come up several times over the last few months and evidently nobody is paying attention.

If you want a change from what we have now, don't bring in Donahoe. He's a defense-first, run-oriented GM, who's had great luck drafting defense and no luck drafting skill players on offense. Sounds a whole lot like CP.

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ChiefsPlanet Administrator
Jimmy Raye for President...anything to get him out of Kansas City
[i]More Moreau</I>

ColoradoChief
09-07-2000, 09:01 AM
Vick is a third year sophomore and will be eligible for the draft if he chooses to come out.

He'll be only 20 years old if he enters the draft next year.

If he plays as long as Warren Moon, he's looking at a LONG career with somebody.

ColoradoChief
09-07-2000, 09:03 AM
I definitely don't want Carl in charge of selecting our high draft pick.

He'll probably take a gaurd to replace Szott.

Kurt Surber
09-07-2000, 09:04 AM
Kordell Stewart and Jerome Bettis.

No thanks.

I checked out a Steeler website a few weeks back to see about what they thought of Donahoe and, amazingly, they hated him with about as much vigor as some here hate Carl. Couldn't quite imagine that. http://www.ChiefsPlanet.com/ubb/tongue.gif

[This message has been edited by KCTitus (edited 09-07-2000).]

Woodrow
09-07-2000, 09:06 AM
Titus,
that's what I can't understand. If the Chiefs are so run happy, one would think that they would have a LEGIT RB on the roster! Just plains DUNB by any account.

Whlie we're all dreaming of a new GM., my vote goes to Jeff Diamond!

elvislivesinkc
09-07-2000, 09:08 AM
Ok, screw Donahoe if that's true.

What about the Bears OC as a coach? Does anyone know anything about him, other than the fact that he's an offensive innovator?

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Woodrow
09-07-2000, 09:08 AM
Sorry,
That's "plain DUMB". Can't type this stupid splint on my finger!

Kurt Surber
09-07-2000, 09:09 AM
Tis maddening, TX. I share in the frustration and believe that we could be much better if we just had a decent RB. One as average as EG would suffice.

We havent had a real RB since Greg Hill and even he didnt get any real carries.

Woodrow
09-07-2000, 09:11 AM
Guys,
If you want offense, the guy for the job is Jeff Diamond! Also, the Vikes had some pretty good defenses in his tenure there. He UNDERSTANDS the game and though he is offensive minded - he also believes in a balanced team.

Devin Vierth
09-07-2000, 09:12 AM
Clint - Gary Crowton is the OC at Chicago

He was at La Tech before Chicago. IMO, I would love to have him as the players respect the hell out of this guy and he thinks offensive first. Something the Chiefs have not ever had.

elvislivesinkc
09-07-2000, 09:13 AM
The Chiefs have never had a "great" RB. You would think the law of averages would be in out favor after so many decades of good/average/poor RBs.

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Bob KCFan Hope
09-07-2000, 09:15 AM
Gregg: You don't think the backs we have on our team are even as average as Grbac?

Woodrow
09-07-2000, 09:16 AM
Titus,
Again - I just don't understand the Chiefs thought process here. Since they chose to "develop" Grbac the #1 thing that would help him would be that LEGIT RB! Unbelievable that they haven't gone after one. I laugh at all those who constantly remind me that "The Chiefs coaches know more than I do". Well that might be true with specific x's and o's but there's a thing called common sense...... It's obvious that most everyone has more!

Kurt Surber
09-07-2000, 09:17 AM
The backs we have on our team are not running backs so, no, they are not even 'average RBs'.

This insistence on playing anyone on the roster rather than getting a damn RB is mind boggling.

Maybe we could line TG up in the HB spot on 3rd and short. After all, he's a pro bowler, right? - that seems to be the line of thinking out there. Crazy.

like pounding a square peg in a round hole.

Kurt Surber
09-07-2000, 09:20 AM
TX: totally agree. Im not one saying the Coaches know more than me. If I can call the plays the offense runs and know they wont work, I think I know as much or maybe more than the coach.

I could be a DC against the Chiefs offense easy. 8 man front with the ILB coming hard off the guards into EG. Either way, if he passes, he's met in the backfield by my LB or he panics and throws it away or if they run it's up the middle so my LB will blow him up cause the guy was running with his head down so he didnt see it coming anyway.

Bob KCFan Hope
09-07-2000, 09:21 AM
We have several fullbacks on our roster but what do you consider Cloud and Moreau?

Tomahawk 11
09-07-2000, 09:21 AM
Never the less Grbac will be gone are he will take one hell of a pay cut . Ten mill come on he will be gone .Mrjimmy is on his way out thats for sure quess there's always next year .<BR>

elvislivesinkc
09-07-2000, 09:22 AM
I have never understood Carl's fascination with Grbac. Sure he showed a few (very few) flashes of potential with S.F., but to give the guy a $20 million contract and annoint him as the starter before his first practice? That seems VERY un-Carl-like.

I think Carl just wanted to make sweet love to Elvis "GQ" Grbac on a bearskin rug in front of a fireplace for God's sake!! http://www.ChiefsPlanet.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

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Bob KCFan Hope
09-07-2000, 09:23 AM
I'm all for getting a good, every down, feature back. The problem is we don't give the HB's a chance. Cloud carried once or twice and Moreau only carried once. Martyball really does lick bag.

AustinChief
09-07-2000, 09:26 AM
Cloud is too slow for a 205lb. scatback, he can't even freaking return kicks.

Moreau on the other hand is good. He's shown flashes, but he comes out, busts off a 12 yard run and then gets set back on the bench.

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Parker
ChiefsPlanet Administrator
Jimmy Raye for President...anything to get him out of Kansas City
[i]More Moreau</I>

Kurt Surber
09-07-2000, 09:26 AM
Na: Cloud is our kick returner. I dont consider him, as the Coaching staff as our feature back, otherwise he wouldnt be returning kicks.

Moreau, hopefully, will get a chance to be our RB. I get the odd feeling that KC will try to convert him to Fullback.

Kurt Surber
09-07-2000, 09:29 AM
That has been an odd phenomenon in our KC offense.

Can anyone explain why when a player makes a good run or play why the coaches pull him out?

I havent noticed this on other teams.

Devin Vierth
09-07-2000, 09:32 AM
Titus - you can't have RBBC if you only give one guy the ball. http://www.ChiefsPlanet.com/ubb/wink.gif

It's a ****ty philosophy of keeping fresh backs in the game. I hate it and would rather see one back get 25+ carries and get a rhythm of the game.

Kurt Surber
09-07-2000, 09:36 AM
True, but even with RBBC, wouldnt you run the most successful guy against the defense?

It's almost as if it's RBBF--Running Back By Failure. I mean before Bennett got hurt, he ran the ball the most and was the absolute worst.

he finished with NEGATIVE yardage.

elian
09-07-2000, 09:42 AM
What makes anyone think Trent Green could do any better in Jimmy Rayes' system. Or lack there of. He has looked pretty good for the rams but so has an ex arena league football player.

If 80% of the passes a QB is allowed to throw are on 3rd and long. All will suffer the same fate as chiefs QBs. Running when a team anticipates the run, and passing when teams know you will pass is a sure sign of future failure.

Hey but we do mix it up sometimes by running the ball on 3 and 18. Even when we have decent field position.

The "Here we come, I dare you to stop us" offense of Jimmy Raye is a joke. If we really want to show how tough we are why don't we tell them the play before we run it!
Heck we almost do that now.

elvislivesinkc
09-07-2000, 09:47 AM
With a few simple audibles installed in the offense (and a QB with enough intelligence to use them wisely), KC could absolutely TORCH some of those 8 man fronts.


Maybe next year.

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CaptainRon
09-07-2000, 10:14 AM
Caretaker quarterback time. EG is gone after the year (cap casualty), Moon retires, and Collins has the job by default. Dan Williams is released, Carlton Gray is released (if he hasn't been traded yet). Look for a QB that can make decisions quickly, with a more compact motion that EG. It just takes him too long to get unwound (kinda like Todd Blackledge).

Bob KCFan Hope
09-07-2000, 10:35 AM
Gregg:
They've got to convert Moreau to FB so they can start him as a HB.

[This message has been edited by nmt1 (edited 09-07-2000).]

Bob KCFan Hope
09-07-2000, 10:36 AM
...as a HB.

Woodrow
09-07-2000, 11:03 AM
Red,
You have a good point about Trent Green failing in Raye's system. I've said on MANY occasions that Raye's system has slowed the development of Grbac. Grbac showed potential in the West Coast offense. To me he looked more comfortable in that system. Maybe because it's a real system. Sure, people point ou that last year was Grbac's best. IMHO - he was protected by the run thus limiting his attempts.

Why is it that ALL our QB's $UCK A$$?? Could it be because of the "system"? Let's see, we're a running team that runs the RBBC because we have NO legit FEATURE RB. There is a huge chance for the "system" to fail. That's exactly like a West Coast team that employs a WRBC approach that features a bunch of slow - posession receivers with NO deep threat. The system would fail here also! There's a message here and it's NOT too difficult to figure out!

Boise_Chief
09-07-2000, 11:32 AM
To the original question here.

NO!!! Trent Green is 30 also. Lets go with some youth at the QB slot also when we rebuild this thing.

gh4chiefs
09-07-2000, 02:27 PM
I'm more interested in hiring Al Saunders as the OC.

Bob KCFan Hope
09-07-2000, 02:31 PM
I think it would be hard to hire Al Saunders. He left the Chiefs and won a ring his first year away. He would probably want to be head coach with personnel powers.

Yosef_Malkovitch
09-07-2000, 02:34 PM
There is only one thing that the Chiefs have that the Rams could use. It's called a Gonzalez. Does anything wanna give him up for another aging (over promoted?) QB?

The-Man
09-07-2000, 08:03 PM
OK, we know CP isn't going anywhere, but if he were, I'd want Jeff Diamond also. Then bring in Dom Capers to be head coach, because, like Mora, he probably learned from his mistakes in his first head coaching job. With him, he could bring the J-Ville LB coach to run his defense. Hire Bruce Arians, Indy QB coach to be OC. With these guys we'd have a coaching staff that could be very good, and could probably right this listing boat.

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Red Eyes
[i]Chinn Up, it ain't nothin' but a thang.</I>

Fort Chief
09-07-2000, 08:11 PM
nmt1 - You are joking, right? Because Al Saunders picked up a ring as a recievers coach on a team loaded with talent and a great mind at OC, he suddenly qualifies for HC/GM? He'd be happy to get an OC job, I'd think.

Fort Chief
09-07-2000, 08:17 PM
As for HC, I found this (from bergen.com):

Giants offensive coordinator Sean Payton says it's a little premature for him to be considered a head coaching prospect. "I've only been a coordinator for one game," he said.

But after Kansas City coach Gunther Cunningham reportedly told his players he might retire, The Kansas City Star came up with a list of potential replacements. Payton was on the list. "There are a lot of qualified candidates with more experience than me," he said. "And I'd like to know how that list was compiled, anyway."

--------

Actually, I thought he had coordinated a few games last year too. Maybe not under the official OC title. I seem to remember when allowed to call plays, the Giants offense greatly improved. Just throwing out a name. If we do get a new HC next year, I hope it's an offensive-minded one.


[This message has been edited by G_Man (edited 09-07-2000).]

Duck Dog
09-07-2000, 08:18 PM
No sense going after a quarterback until ALL of the coaching staff (and Peterson) are replaced...

AustinChief
09-07-2000, 09:35 PM
EG is the least of our problems. I know he's not exactly HOF material, but if everyone else did their jobs as well as he does his (like NOT dropping passes all the time) then we'd be 9-7 or 10-6. I don't think it's fair to blame him for ONE mistake when our D is known around the league as "the sieve" and our RB's get 8 yards in 6 carries.

Our coaching staff is a FAR worse problem than EG.

Woodrow
09-07-2000, 11:22 PM
Milkman,
FINALLY someone agrees with me on the Jeff Diomand for GM selection!

Yos,
I agree that EG is NOT the most pressing problem on offense. IMO, It starts with managements approval of the RRBC and NOT going after a LEGIT RB and it ends with the IDIOT in the booth. I don't like Grbac's decision making process at times but it sure isn't made easier by the NEANDERTHAL approach to football - Jimmy Raye style! I'd like to see what he could do WITH a game -breaker in the backfield. It just boggles my brain!

AustinChief
09-08-2000, 08:14 AM
TX:

I think we've got a good RB on this roster in Frank Moreau. For that reason, I lay the sole blame on the coaching staff. Not only do they call bogus plays, but they can't evaluate talent either.

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Parker
ChiefsPlanet Administrator
Jimmy Raye for President...anything to get him out of Kansas City
[i]More Moreau</I>

shakesthecat
09-08-2000, 09:28 AM
Grbac is not the biggest problem on Offense. He was the biggest problem early last season, culminating in his disastrous performance in the San Diego game. But he improved last season to the point where he is an asset rather than a liability.

It is true that I do not think he is franchise QB material, but he could be adequate with three changes:

1. An OC with even half a clue.
2. A featured HB.
3. Renegotiate to lose that obscene bonus.

Raye had several chances to show he is qualified as OC. He failed every time. Raye remains the major stumbling block in our Offense. We will not improve until he is gone.

We tried Richardson at FB and discovered that we miss his blocking very much. Keep Richardson at FB and play Moreau at HB. Give him lots of carries and do not pull him out if he can still stand. We might have a featured HB on our roster, but we would never know it with the RBbC mentality.

If we get a new OC next season, and Moreau proves that he can be a featured HB, then Grbac might again rise to our weakest link. Right now, he is a distant third, once that bonus is gone.

xoxo~
gaz
reluctant Grbacker.<BR>

ColoradoChief
09-08-2000, 10:00 AM
I am sorry if I seem a little PO'd… but this is horse****!

Grbac is nothing but an average QB. He should be a backup. He'll never take a team [any team] to a Superbowl. He still makes rookie mistakes in his 8th season. It's a nightmare that this human joke was ever signed by the Chiefs in the first place.

We will be 41 million over the cap next year. We missed out on 9 franchise type QB's in the draft the last two years now. Our skill position talent is piss poor. Yet people still want to keep Grbac and think getting a new OC is going to get this team to a Superbowl? Can I have some that crack you're smoking.

The worst thing that can happen to this franchise is them having any record any better than 6-10 this year. We need a complete overhaul and we must be rid of Peterson for that to happen. Getting a new OC isn't going to solve a damn thing!

It totally sucks *** that the realistic fans have been reduced to having to root for the Chiefs to lose so that we can be rid of Peterson!

[This message has been edited by Cannibal (edited 09-08-2000).]

Kurt Surber
09-08-2000, 10:09 AM
He still makes rookie mistakes in his 8th season. - examples please.

We missed out on 9 franchise type QB's in the draft the last two years now - how many of those were available at out draft position? ie, how many did we pass over?

Yet people still want to keep Grbac and think getting a new OC is going to get this team to a Superbowl? - maybe it's you smoking crack. I see no one on this BB stating a smiple OC change equals a SB. The best I've seen is OC, RB and DC and we might actually be competitive.

realistic fans have been reduced to having to root for the Chiefs to lose so that we can be rid of Peterson! - sorry, are we 'measuring' fandom again? Im realistic about our chances, but still root for them to win.

ColoradoChief
09-08-2000, 10:15 AM
The int in the last game is a perfect example.

Grbac saw that he was going to be crushed, so in his panic he threw the ball away without even knowing where it was going to go. The result, a back breaking int for for a touchdown. He panics in the pocket constantly, he still can't stand in under pressure and make good decisions even though he's an eight year vet.

Simply put... he a is total P_u_s_s!

[This message has been edited by Cannibal (edited 09-08-2000).]

ColoradoChief
09-08-2000, 10:16 AM
To get something you've got to give up something, we should have traded up for one fo those QB's.

SPUTinKC
09-08-2000, 10:19 AM
If Trent Green is available then by all means sign him.

Then we watch who Green Bay releases at the QB position and obtain his rights before he plays in the Arena Football League.

Get him a job at The Chopper bagging groceries in the off-season and the Chiefs will have their SB caliber QB in no time!!!


But wait a minute! We'd still have JR running our offense!!!

AAAUUUUGGGGHHHHHHHHH...................

Kurt Surber
09-08-2000, 10:21 AM
Throwing over the middle was dumb. I do admit that, but you said mistakes, that's one.

I'd bet that had he ran toward the sideline and threw the ball out of bounds the same criticism would have been leveled because he threw the ball away instead of an INT.

As far as giving up something to get something, what did KC have to give up besides lower draft picks? It takes two parties to trade. (this is for Clint) - How do you know for a FACT that KC didnt try to trade up?

How many did KC pass over? None, right? KC cant draft someone that isnt available.

ColoradoChief
09-08-2000, 10:24 AM
They passed over Shaun King and Michael Bishop.

Bishop may not be starting material just yet, but if we were rebuilding, he would be the type QB I'd like to build around.

ColoradoChief
09-08-2000, 10:34 AM
They passed Shaun King for Mike Cloud and they passed up on Mike Bishop for a bunch scrubs many of which aren't even on the team any longer.

elvislivesinkc
09-08-2000, 10:36 AM
Titus,

*I don't know*, but I don't believe Carl has ever tried to trade up for a QB.

There are 2 or 3 potential stars at QB that will be in the 2001 draft. If Carl is still around, he'll have another chance to make a move. We'll see how it goes.

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ColoradoChief
09-08-2000, 10:41 AM
They passed on Bishop for Eric ****ing King for Christ's sake!

ColoradoChief
09-08-2000, 10:48 AM
Who would you all rather have, Mike Bishop or Eric King [a ****ing long snapper who was cut this offseason].

punkyQB
09-08-2000, 11:33 AM
I think that Al Saunders would make an excellent choice for OC, but I've heard his feelings were really hurt that he wasn't asked to coach for the Chiefs when Gunther was hired. Trent Green would be a good choice for the Chiefs ONLY if Al Saunders were the choice for OC. He's only played in Mike Martz style offense in the NFL, so it's hard to say whether he'd succeed in a different scheme.

Traveller
09-08-2000, 11:50 AM
Actually I'm not a fan of E. King or Bishop. For Bishop to be sucessfull he'll have to:

1. Grow a brain. None exists in that cavity at present.
2. Discover that 10 other guys wear the same jersey as he on offense.
3. Throw first, run second.

He might achieve #3 but I think #1 and #2 are beyond him.

ColoradoChief
09-08-2000, 11:54 AM
Answer the question Chuck.

Who would you rather have Mike Bishop or Eric King?

Traveller
09-08-2000, 11:59 AM
Getting demanding are we Cannibal?

Since we were in need of a long snapper and OG help at the time of the draft, I'd go with King. He addressed an immediate need that Bishop doesn't and didn't.

As it turned out he wasn't the answer, but Bishop won't be either. He's Kordel Stewart with a stronger arm. Nothing more.

ColoradoChief
09-08-2000, 12:00 PM
That's all I needed to know.


No further comment required here. I think your reply speaks for itself.

elvislivesinkc
09-08-2000, 12:30 PM
Bishop is already better than Kordell ever dreamed of being, IMO.

Bishop does need to prove that he has the mindset of a professional QB, but that is his only real question mark, IMO.

Kordell's arm is a cap gun compared to Bishop's cannon.

Bishop has already shown at the college level that he's more accurate than Kordell. You and I are more accurate than Kordell.

Bishop is even faster on his feet than Kordell.

By all accounts, Bishop has already shown excellent leadership qualities in practice and during the preseason.

In KC, Bishop would enjoy the protection of a tremendous O-line, and hopefully a reasonably intelligent coordinator after Raye is shown the door.

I think it would be worth a try. Bishop wouldn't be as much of a risk as Grbac was, IMO.

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This is my signature!! There are many like it but this one is mine!!

Devin Vierth
09-08-2000, 12:34 PM
Clint -

One thing you forgot to mention, Bishop would enjoy the support of KC Fans (something our current QB does not enjoy). We all know that confidence is a huge factor in QB play. I believe Bishop would shine in KC.

Fort Chief
09-08-2000, 01:03 PM
"We missed out on 9 franchise type QB's in the draft the last two years now."

Cannibal, I assume Titus was quoting you on this (I don't want to read back)? I apoligize if I'm mistaken. I hope you weren't counting King and Bishop among them. They've done absolutely nothing to deserve franchise designations. King is an adequate starter, but hardly irreplaceable. Bishop is a backup who has done NOTHING in the NFL.

Talk to you later, i have to go.

elvislivesinkc
09-08-2000, 01:54 PM
IMO, Pennington can be added to that group, if he wasn't included already.

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This is my signature!! There are many like it but this one is mine!!

ColoradoChief
09-08-2000, 02:35 PM
QB's drafted the couple of years…

Couch
McNabb
Smith
McNown
Culpepper
King
Pennington
Batch
Bishop
Greise

I know they had no chance to get Smith or Couch. But the Chiefs actually passed on King, Batch, Bishop & Greise and they had a good to chance to trade up to get McNown, Culpepper and Pennington. I thought as well as many "experts" that McNown would have been a perfect fit w/ the Chiefs.<BR>

ColoradoChief
09-08-2000, 02:36 PM
The Chiefs also passed on Chris Redman. I don't know if he'll pan out, but I'd certainly like to have him as our third QB right about now.

Fort Chief
09-08-2000, 03:37 PM
For McNown and Culpepper, the Chiefs tried to trade up that year (although not for them [McCalister and James, if I remember correctly]), so I don't know how good our opportunity would have been to get them. You have to remember how costly trading up is, and that you need two willing teams. How many teams traded up in this years 1st round? 0, wasn't it? Trading up is not easy and I don't fault the Chiefs for failing to draft a player that was selected before their pick. You can only blame them for those they passed up. Those QBs haven't shown anything yet.

wutamess
09-08-2000, 08:46 PM
I don't know if this has been mentioned yet...sorry...didn't have time to read all the posts on this topic...
KC's chances of landing T. Green are minimal...reason is that Holmgren has 3 1st round picks next year to either trade up for a Drew Brees or trade for Green or Hasselbeck...even if Green doesn't end up in Seattle...very unlikely KC could pay the $$ for Green in the FA market...KC should be crossin' his fingers that EG will restructure his contract again...but only if he show's any improvement this season...which isn't likely...but who knows...there is still a lot of football to be played...
BTW...In accordance with Gaz....Give Moreau the damn ball!!!

Fort Chief
09-08-2000, 10:11 PM
Fat Homer - Where'd Seattle get the 3rd? Their own, Dallas', and ???

BTW, why should we cross our fingers that grbac restructures? If he doesn't (which he will, he can't make anywhere close to what we're paying him elsewhere), we cut him, save 15 million, and are through with him forever.

punkyQB
09-08-2000, 11:03 PM
If I'm not mistaken, Trent Green is under contract for two more seasons after this one. I don't think the Rams will cut him because he will bring draft choices. The question is, what does a team have to give in order to acquire Trent Green? And I wholeheartedly agree that Chiefs have missed some players beyond round 1 that could have helped this team, most notably, Charlie Batch, Tim Rattay and Chris Redman (who I believe will be a very solid, Chris Chandler when healthy type QB).

Woodrow
09-09-2000, 12:30 AM
Dane,
Funny that you should mention Chris Chandler. He was my pick about 4 years ago when he was a free agent. The Chiefs courted Jeff George and Grbac but didn't really show that much intrest in Chandler, I guess because he was injury prone. Anyway, I said it then and I'll say it again, IMHO Chandler was the best choice of the bunch! Hindsight is 20/20 and both Grbac and George missed more games due to injury rhan Chris Chandler did during the past 4 years. Chandler has great touch on both short and deep throws and is very smart.

punkyQB
09-09-2000, 04:12 AM
It's kinda funny, but I thought Chandler was the best guy, too! I saw him in Indy, Tampa Bay, LA Rams, then finally Houston, and always thought he had something special. All the Chiefs had to give up would have been a 5th rounder for him! I wonder...if Marty hadn't have been unsuccessful with other "recycled" QB's, if he would have taken a chance with Chandler. Who here thinks that Chandler wouldn't have led the Chiefs FURTHER in '97 (behind their stellar offensive line) than did Grbac/Gannon that year? Food for thought...

BoatBuilder
09-09-2000, 09:08 AM
Trent Green???

You think the Chiefs are going to be able to convince Green to take a significant pay cut and come here to be "part of the Chiefs family?" That crap only works on homeless free agents that have no where else to go ie Lew Bush, Brett Periman, Brenston Buckner, Carlton Gray, Chris Dishman - the list is long. Chiefs are way over the cap. Thanks to Carl extending Grbac's contract, we are stuck with him. There will be no trent green or any other high priced veteran QB joining the revolving door of QBs in KC. Its either going to be Grbac, Collins, or a draft pick.

wutamess
09-09-2000, 11:20 AM
G Man...my mistake...it should've read 3 1st Round picks in the next 2 years...1 from Dallas and 2 of their own...to use to wheel and deal for a better option at QB than Kitna...who won't have the luxury of being just a pretty good QB under Holmgren...Mike doesn't have the patience to settle for just pretty good...especially since Kitna isn't one of his own recruits...since Kitna will be a free agent after this season...Holmgren won't offer him a contract unless he drastically improves...which at this point...ain't goin' to happen...
You're right 'bout EG and cuttin' the loss with him...no matter how much it counts vs the cap...it'd be worth every penny to see him out of KC...he'll be alright tho'...someone will pay him a Million per to ride the pine...until then...the best we can hope for is that EG's learning curve accelerates with his salary...hehe

Woodrow
09-09-2000, 11:25 AM
Pack Fan,
Then hopefully Trent Green's house will burn down or something! *grin*

BTW, your said," We're stuck with Grbac." Are you a Chiefs fan NOW? *BIG GRIN*

The-Man
09-09-2000, 11:50 AM
I still say the biggest problem with Grbac is playing in a system that stunts his growth, and for an OC that couldn't develop a quality high school QB.

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Red Eyes
[i]Chinn Up, it ain't nothin' but a thang.</I>

Woodrow
09-09-2000, 12:22 PM
Milkman,
You'r 100% CORRECT! I took on just about all the Grbashers on the other BB with that same opinion. Add to the fact that the Chiefs have NOT given him a legit RB and QB coach and their support seems half - hearted at best!

shakesthecat
09-09-2000, 12:30 PM
I defended Grbac in Post #66, but let's not get carried away here. Grbac is not a great QB hampered by an idiot OC and no HB. He is an average QB hampered by an idiot OC and no HB.

The Grbashers, though cursed with a bit of tunnel vision [not unlike their nemesis], are correct in cataloguing his many faults. I feel sorry for situation Grbac is in, but let's not paint him as a suffering genius. He is not franchise QB material, but Raye does put the team in positions that play to Grbac's known weaknesses.

Woo Hoo! I got #100!

xoxo~
gaz
perhaps he is splitting hairs, but sees a big difference here.


[This message has been edited by Gaz (edited 09-09-2000).]

The-Man
09-09-2000, 12:41 PM
Gaz,
I'm not saying that Grbac would be a great QB under a different OC. I do think that he would be a much better QB at this stage of his career than he is now, however. He showed flashes of real potential under Hackett, but has not played as well since. Hackett was not a great OC, but was better than Raye has been, is, or will ever be, IMO That statement, alone, is a pretty sad commentary on Raye.

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Red Eyes
[i]Chinn Up, it ain't nothin' but a thang.</I>

shakesthecat
09-09-2000, 12:56 PM
milkman-

I think that is a concise and accurate summation of the situation. Grbac is an average QB who has some assets [long ball & play action] and some liabilities [defensive read and decisions]. Grbac suffers under the command of an OC [to use the term loosely] whose awful play calling continually puts him in positions that play to his weaknesses rather than his strengths. The flurry of pass plays at the end of the Colts game is a perfect example. Those still interested in defending Raye in order to bash Grbac might recall that the exact same thing happened last year at Chicago.

Grbac might not be a great QB under a different OC, but he would certainly be a better QB.

Grbac is an average QB who would be a fine backup for any team. In KC, he is struggling to fill the starter's shoes. That would be a difficult task under any circumstances. But the lack of a featured HB and the inept play calling of the OC dooms him to situations where Grbac will most likely fail. I do not mean that as a slam on Grbac. I believe he is trying to do his best in a bad situation, but his skill do not match this team. We need either a scrambler or a smart veteran who can read a D and audible at the line.

We need someone who can make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

xoxo~
gaz
giving Grbac all the credit he can muster.<BR>

Woodrow
09-09-2000, 12:58 PM
Gaz,
I never said that Grbac is a great QB. I agree with you that he's a very average QB. However, I'm simply saying that if the Chiefs are so committed to an average QB, they should give him ALL the tools for success. They have not done that. I've also said that Grbac loked the best under Hackett, not that he was mush better than Raye, but Hackett at least had a better reume and featured the ever present dink pass to the RB as a safety valve.

shakesthecat
09-09-2000, 12:58 PM
Hey, check it out! I set this thread on fire!

Who's The Man?

xoxo~
gaz
that little ol' firestarter.

shakesthecat
09-09-2000, 01:03 PM
I cannot believe I am saying this [and I'm sure Captain CutNPaste will save this one so I can choke on it later] but I miss Hackett.

No, he was not a good OC, either. But at least he had a semblance of a plan. Unless Raye's plan involves smoothing Grunhard's butt, I have seen very little Offensive strategy from the Skybox Stooge.

xoxo~
gaz
being careful what he wishes for in the future.<BR>

puttanasudiccio
09-09-2000, 02:50 PM
Gaz,

I agree with you on every point but why is it we can sit here and chat about it when the coaching can do nothing about it??

confused.<P>

puttanasudiccio
09-09-2000, 02:55 PM
What I mean is it's kinda hard to beleive that they get paid for it (coaching in whatever manner) while not executing plays designed for the players they have. Same as Ganz, Marty and now Gun. I guess the motto in KC is SELL TICKETS, SELL TICKETS!!! No matter what the cost. Just tired of having my heart torn out last Sunday just to watch the Rams kick *** on a monday night (as well as the freaking donxs).