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View Full Version : Bush Campaign caught lying about guard records AGAIN


jAZ
09-08-2004, 12:55 AM
First it was: All Bush's records have been released.

Then they released more records.

Then it was: Yeah, but now all Bush's records have been released.

Then they released more records.

Then it was: Ok, fine, you caught us, but I'm telling you that's it.

Then they released more records.

Each round of releases gets worse and worse for Bush. They are caught lying. Then they are forced to show the records they didn't want released. Another round of lawsuits. They get caught lying again. More records are released. They get caught lying again.

It's enough flip-floping to make the lying seem like honesty. But that's pretty much Bush's entire campaign.

Based on this round it looks like 9/11 wasn't the only time chose not to defend his country.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/politicselections/nation/president/2004-09-07-new-bush-records_x.htm

Lawsuit uncovers new Bush guard records

WASHINGTON (AP) President Bush ranked in the middle of his Air National Guard flight class and flew 336 hours in a fighter jet before letting his pilot status lapse and missing a key readiness drill in 1972, according to his flight records belatedly uncovered Tuesday under the Freedom of Information Act.

Bush's Vietnam-era service in the Texas Air National Guard has become an issue in the presidential campaign.

The Pentagon and Bush's campaign have claimed for months that all records detailing his fighter pilot career have been made public, but defense officials said they found two dozen new records detailing his training and flight logs after The Associated Press filed a lawsuit and submitted new requests under the public records law. (Related story: Ad challenges Bush service)

"Previous requests from other requesters for President Bush's Individual Flight Records did not lead to the discovery of these records because at the time President Bush left the service, flight records were subject to retention for only 24 months and we understood that neither the Air Force nor the Texas Air National Guard retained such records thereafter," the Pentagon told the AP.

"Out of an abundance of caution," the government "searched a file that had been preserved in spite of this policy" and found the Bush records, the letter said. "The Department of Defense regrets this oversight during the previous search efforts."

Bush's Vietnam-era service in the Texas Air National Guard has become an issue in the presidential campaign as the candidates spar over who would make the best commander in chief. Supporters of Democratic nominee John Kerry, a decorated Vietnam combat veteran, have criticized Bush for serving stateside in the National Guard. Kerry's Republican critics claim Kerry did not deserve some of his five medals.

Bush has repeatedly said he is proud of his Air National Guard service. White House spokesmen said as late as last week the administration knew of no other records of Bush's military service.

"These documents confirm that the president served honorably in the National Guard," White House spokeswoman Claire Buchan said Tuesday night.

Democratic National Committee communications director Jano Cabrera disagreed. "For months George Bush told the nation that all his military records were public," he said. "Now we know why Bush was trying so hard to withhold these records. When his nation asked him to be on call against possible surprise attacks, Bush wasn't there."

The newly released records show Bush, a lieutenant in the Texas Air National Guard, ranked No. 22 in a class of 53 pilots when he finished his flight training at Moody Air Force Base in Georgia in 1969.

Over the next three years, he logged 326.4 hours as a pilot and an additional 9.9 hours as a co-pilot, mostly in his the F-102A jet used to intercept enemy aircraft. Of the 278 hours he flew in the interceptor, about 77 hours were in the TF-102A, the two-seat trainer version of the one-seat fighter jet.

The records show his last flight was in April 1972, which is consistent with pay records indicating Bush had a large lapse of duty between April and October of that year. Bush has said he went to Alabama in 1972 to work on an unsuccessful Republican Senate campaign. Bush skipped a required medical exam that cost him his pilot's status in August of that year.

Bush's 2000 campaign suggested the future president skipped his medical exam in part because the F-102A was nearly obsolete. Records show Bush's Texas unit flew the F-102A until 1974 and used the jets as part of an air defense drill during 1972.

A six-month historical record of his 147th Fighter Interceptor Group, also turned over to the AP on Tuesday, shows some of the training Bush missed with his colleagues during that time.

Significantly, it showed (Bush's) unit joined a "24-hour active alert mission to safeguard against surprise attack" in the southern United State beginning on Oct. 6, 1972, a time when Bush did not report for duty, according to his pay records.

Bush's lone service in October was outside Texas, presumably with an Alabama unit he had permission to train with in September, October and November 1972.

As part of the mission, the 147th kept two F-102a jets the same Bush flew before he was grounded on ready alert to be launched within five minutes' warning.

The records also show Bush made a grade of 88 on total airmanship and a perfect 100 for flying without navigational instruments, operating a T-38 System and studying applied aerodynamics. Other scores ranged from 89 in flight planning to 98 in aviation physiology.

The newly released records do not include any from five categories of documents Bush's commanders had been required to keep in response to the gaps in Bush's training in 1972 and 1973. For example, National Guard commanders were required to perform an investigation whenever any pilot skipped a medical exam and forward the results up the Air Force chain of command. No such documents have surfaced.

Michael Michigan
09-08-2004, 01:07 AM
You've got a winner, between this and kitty kelly--it's over.

Congrats.

:toast:

jAZ
09-08-2004, 01:13 AM
You've got a winner, between this and kitty kelly--it's over.

Congrats.

:toast:
You watching 60 Minutes tonight?

Michael Michigan
09-08-2004, 01:27 AM
You watching 60 Minutes tonight?

No. I'm well aware that Bush was in The National Guard.

But you are right--another winner.

Keep 'em coming.

Braincase
09-08-2004, 06:26 AM
I thought these records probably never existed? :spock:

Donger
09-08-2004, 06:40 AM
I don't know...

I'm pretty skeptical of USA Today.

Donger
09-08-2004, 06:42 AM
However, I'm all for all of Bush's service records being found and released. That's only fair.

Of course, it would be nice if, in the interest of fairness, Kerry released all of his too.

Radar Chief
09-08-2004, 06:46 AM
However, I'm all for all of Bush's service records being found and released. That's only fair.

Of course, it would be nice if, in the interest of fairness, Kerry released all of his too.

Releasing documents being such an issue and all.

MarcBulger
09-08-2004, 06:46 AM
So which is it? Do they exist or have they been destroyed? I don't care if Kerry was the Audey Murphy he came back and spit in the face of every Veteran out there and they know it. He did it to promote himself. The man wrote a book with a bunch of hippies on it putting up an upside down flag, and know he wants to be the Commander-in-Chief. In the words of Zell "not qualified".

Amnorix
09-08-2004, 07:07 AM
Man do I not care about the events of 30+ years ago, but this freaking election is just overly fascinated with all of them, on both sides of the issue.

God forbid we discuss what matters in the years 2005-2008, rather than what happened in the early 1970s... :shake:

headsnap
09-08-2004, 07:23 AM
Man do I not care about the events of 30+ years ago, but this freaking election is just overly fascinated with all of them, on both sides of the issue.

God forbid we discuss what matters in the years 2005-2008, rather than what happened in the early 1970s... :shake:
it was your boy who decided to make Vietnam his platform...




I'm curious, did he run on his 'four months' when he was in Taxachussets?

Chief Henry
09-08-2004, 07:29 AM
Did these records just appear on the Bush's coffee
table over night....like SHAZAM ?

Amnorix
09-08-2004, 07:35 AM
it was your boy who decided to make Vietnam his platform...

I'm curious, did he run on his 'four months' when he was in Taxachussets?

I'm not blaming anyone in particular for this, or exonerating anyone in particular. I think the Swiftboat veterans would've done their schtick regardless of what Kerry did. And the liberal organizations would have attacked Bush's National Guard service regardless as well. IMHO, anyway.

I don't even remember what Kerry ran on when he was first elected to Senate. He hasn't had much of a challenge in the last several elections.

And we're no longer Taxachusetts, just so you know. In fact, the tax burden in Massachusetts is only 0.01% higher than in Mizzou. We rank 36th in tax burden among the US states (where #1 is worst (NY at 12.9%) and #50 is best (Alaska at 6.3%). This factors in property taxes, sales taxes, income taxes, etc.

http://www.retirementliving.com/RLtaxburdens.html

http://www.retirementliving.com/RLtaxes.html

No need to thank me. I'm always glad to correct those who are wrong...

Amnorix
09-08-2004, 07:39 AM
With regard to my prior post, I note for the record:

1. that I ascribe no credit to Kerry for Massachusetts no longer being Taxachusetts. He was neither a positive nor negative factor in Mass. tax issues.

2. I give alot of credit to Massachusetts' liberal Republican governor, William Weld, for helping this matter. He was my kind of politician -- social liberal and fiscal conservative. I would gladly vote for him over Kerry if Weld were a candidate for President, from either party.

StcChief
09-08-2004, 07:39 AM
Untill Kerry discloses all of his records and signs the form to release them...
Kerry is still 'unfit for command'

redbrian
09-08-2004, 07:41 AM
Did these records just appear on the Bush's coffee
table over night....like SHAZAM ?

You people do realize that the only military record that a vet keeps and has absolute control over is his DD214, all other official records are kept and maintained by the military.

RINGLEADER
09-08-2004, 08:07 AM
I thought Bush was an idiot. I didn't know he ranked in the top half of his training group flying fighter jets.

Anyway, I agree with MM, I'm sure these "BOMBSHELLS" are going to put Kerry over the top!

Maybe Kerry will talk to the press now about the inconsistencies in the various Vietnam stories he has told Congress and how they're contradicted by his own campaign. It's been 38 days now and he still won't talk about his heroic war record with Tim Russert...

RINGLEADER
09-08-2004, 08:10 AM
You people do realize that the only military record that a vet keeps and has absolute control over is his DD214, all other official records are kept and maintained by the military.


Get out of here with your facts Brian...

Cochise
09-08-2004, 08:15 AM
ROFL

The libs are going to further torpedo their own campaign by continuing to float this balloon huh. BRING IT ON! BRING IT ON!

redbrian
09-08-2004, 08:16 AM
Get out of here with your facts Brian...

Sorry, I don't know what I was thinking, I'll try not to let it happen again.

jAZ
09-08-2004, 08:17 AM
However, I'm all for all of Bush's service records being found and released. That's only fair.

Of course, it would be nice if, in the interest of fairness, Kerry released all of his too.
Bush hasn't even reached Kerry yet in terms of records released. Neither guy has released their medial records. It's just that Bush hasn't released tons of his actual military records either.

jAZ
09-08-2004, 08:20 AM
Untill Kerry discloses all of his records and signs the form to release them...
Kerry is still 'unfit for command'
Damn! Then you might want to yank Bush out of office right now. His military records aren't even fully released. Not to mention the Medical Records you want Kerry to release.

I'll assume you are voting for Nader this year?

jAZ
09-08-2004, 08:23 AM
You people do realize that the only military record that a vet keeps and has absolute control over is his DD214, all other official records are kept and maintained by the military.
So it should have been easy for Bush to release his at any point in the last 4 years. I'm sure all the calls for Kerry's Medical records where preceeded by calls from the same people for Bush's.

Right?

It's just the news wasn't covering it back then, I'm sure.

the Talking Can
09-08-2004, 08:27 AM
maybe Hillary had these files?

Matt Helm
09-08-2004, 08:29 AM
Man do I not care about the events of 30+ years ago, but this freaking election is just overly fascinated with all of them, on both sides of the issue.

God forbid we discuss what matters in the years 2005-2008, rather than what happened in the early 1970s... :shake:

Direct your comments to:

www.johnkerry.com

Let them know that you don't think that 30+ year old news is relevant.

While you're at it, tell jiz.

the Talking Can
09-08-2004, 08:29 AM
"Significantly, it showed (Bush's) unit joined a "24-hour active alert mission to safeguard against surprise attack" in the southern United State beginning on Oct. 6, 1972, a time when Bush did not report for duty, according to his pay records."


Imagine if this we true of Kerry....you'd have Zell Miller calling him a coward and Dick Cheney saying he wants America to be attacked......wait a minute, they said that anyways...

Matt Helm
09-08-2004, 08:31 AM
I'm not blaming anyone in particular for this, or exonerating anyone in particular. I think the Swiftboat veterans would've done their schtick regardless of what Kerry did. And the liberal organizations would have attacked Bush's National Guard service regardless as well. IMHO, anyway.

I don't even remember what Kerry ran on when he was first elected to Senate. He hasn't had much of a challenge in the last several elections.

And we're no longer Taxachusetts, just so you know. In fact, the tax burden in Massachusetts is only 0.01% higher than in Mizzou. We rank 36th in tax burden among the US states (where #1 is worst (NY at 12.9%) and #50 is best (Alaska at 6.3%). This factors in property taxes, sales taxes, income taxes, etc.

http://www.retirementliving.com/RLtaxburdens.html

http://www.retirementliving.com/RLtaxes.html

No need to thank me. I'm always glad to correct those who are wrong...

You left out Hawaii at 4.9%

Saggysack
09-08-2004, 08:33 AM
I'm not blaming anyone in particular for this, or exonerating anyone in particular. I think the Swiftboat veterans would've done their schtick regardless of what Kerry did. And the liberal organizations would have attacked Bush's National Guard service regardless as well. IMHO, anyway.

I don't even remember what Kerry ran on when he was first elected to Senate. He hasn't had much of a challenge in the last several elections.

And we're no longer Taxachusetts, just so you know. In fact, the tax burden in Massachusetts is only 0.01% higher than in Mizzou. We rank 36th in tax burden among the US states (where #1 is worst (NY at 12.9%) and #50 is best (Alaska at 6.3%). This factors in property taxes, sales taxes, income taxes, etc.

http://www.retirementliving.com/RLtaxburdens.html

http://www.retirementliving.com/RLtaxes.html

No need to thank me. I'm always glad to correct those who are wrong...

Damn! Amno doin the beat down.

teh rep

Saggysack
09-08-2004, 08:35 AM
You left out Hawaii at 4.9%

Hawaii has a tax burden of 11.3% genius.

Matt Helm
09-08-2004, 08:37 AM
Bush hasn't even reached Kerry yet in terms of records released. Neither guy has released their medial records. It's just that Bush hasn't released tons of his actual military records either.

Tons of his actual military records? How much of a record would a person have after 4 years of reserve service? Remember that he was never activated.

I'd be extremely curious. I can dig up 100's of records of reserves with longer service than 4 years that have virtually nothing in them.

I am totally amazed that skerry's camp would still be attacking GWB's service. I would guess that each time they drag up the issue again the SBVFT will come back with another ad.

Have you noticed that the SBVFT have backed off as requested? Have you noticed that moveon.org and the rest of the democratic backing 527's are still going full bore. Tells a person alot about which side is losing and grasping at straws!!!

Chief Henry
09-08-2004, 08:39 AM
You people do realize that the only military record that a vet keeps and has absolute control over is his DD214, all other official records are kept and maintained by the military.


RB,

You missed my point. Some of the Billing records of the Rose Law firm showed up on a coffee table in the living qtrs one evening at the white house during the Clinton years...SHAZAM

Matt Helm
09-08-2004, 08:41 AM
RB,

You missed my point. Some of the Billing records of the Rose Law firm showed up on a coffee table in the living qtrs one evening at the white house during the Clinton years...SHAZAM

Along with many other "doctored" files.

Donger
09-08-2004, 08:41 AM
Bush hasn't even reached Kerry yet in terms of records released.

Based on what? Quality? Quantity?

Does it bother you that there are apparently over 100 pages of documents detailing Kerry's military service that have not been released?

Matt Helm
09-08-2004, 08:43 AM
Hawaii has a tax burden of 11.3% genius.

As I was referring to different taxes, you could be right. Dumass

Saggysack
09-08-2004, 09:00 AM
As I was referring to different taxes, you could be right. Dumass


ROFL

Can you stay on topic? The post you were quoting was about tax burdens. Not some 'different tax' that only you know WTH you are talking about. Your post made absolutely no sense to what you were quoting

One of these days I hope you would quit playing baseball on a tennis court. But for some reason I seriously doubt it.

jAZ
09-08-2004, 09:07 AM
Based on what? Quality? Quantity?

Does it bother you that there are apparently over 100 pages of documents detailing Kerry's military service that have not been released?
They are medical records.

Amnorix
09-08-2004, 09:17 AM
One of these days I hope you would quit playing baseball on a tennis court. But for some reason I seriously doubt it.
Yeah, I wouldn't hold your breath on that one. ROFL

Velvet_Jones
09-08-2004, 09:22 AM
maybe Hillary had these files?
hehehehe. Maybe she should look under dat big-ole-azz of hers. Dem yams are as big as a filing cabinet. hehehehe

jAZ
09-08-2004, 09:24 AM
One of these days I hope you would quit playing baseball on a tennis court. But for some reason I seriously doubt it.
http://members.screenz.com/davelyon/images/2000%20Matt%20in%20T-ball%20uniform.jpg

Donger
09-08-2004, 09:26 AM
They are medical records.

Are you sure about that?

Reporting by the Washington Post's Michael Dobbs points out that although the Kerry campaign insists that it has released Kerry's full military records, the Post was only able to get six pages of records under its Freedom of Information Act request out of the "at least a hundred pages" a Naval Personnel Office spokesman called the "full file."

KCFalcon59
09-08-2004, 09:27 AM
maybe Hillary had these files?

She had everyone elses.

memyselfI
09-08-2004, 10:17 AM
But, but, but did he LIE about THREE PURPLE HEARTS? :hmmm:

jAZ
09-08-2004, 11:13 AM
Are you sure about that?

Reporting by the Washington Post's Michael Dobbs points out that although the Kerry campaign insists that it has released Kerry's full military records, the Post was only able to get six pages of records under its Freedom of Information Act request out of the "at least a hundred pages" a Naval Personnel Office spokesman called the "full file."
Yup. And that certainly doesn't change anything.

Donger
09-08-2004, 11:47 AM
Yup. And that certainly doesn't change anything.

So what do you think are in the other 94+ pages? All medical records?

jAZ
09-08-2004, 11:51 AM
So what do you think are in the other 94+ pages? All medical records?
You can do the math, but I'm counting more than 6 pages in the first document here.

http://www.johnkerry.com/about/john_kerry/military_records.html

The quote you posted is worthless.

Donger
09-08-2004, 11:59 AM
You can do the math, but I'm counting more than 6 pages in the first document here.

http://www.johnkerry.com/about/john_kerry/military_records.html

The quote you posted is worthless.

How do you know that the files that haven't been released are the ones on Kerry's website?

Come on now... be skeptical.

jAZ
09-08-2004, 12:04 PM
How do you know that the files that haven't been released are the ones on Kerry's website?

Come on now... be skeptical.
I'm skeptical that the quote you provided has any meaning given that there are copies of dozens of pages of military records I can see with my own eyes.

And since dozens is more than 6, I can skeptically say that that quote you provided is worthless.

There is a lot more info available publicly than 6 pages.

The quote provides no context of anything. It's worthless.

Donger
09-08-2004, 12:07 PM
I'm skeptical that the quote you provided has any meaning given that there are copies of dozens of pages of military records I can see with my own eyes.

Like I said, how do you know that the files that have not been released are posted on Kerry's website?

Do you or don't you?

jAZ
09-08-2004, 12:25 PM
Like I said, how do you know that the files that have not been released are posted on Kerry's website?

Do you or don't you?
This is one of your most childish conversations I've ever been apart of.

:shake:

I have no idea what's in the mind of the author of anything, this article is no different. I don't know what they are referring to. I do know that there are more than 6 pages of documents from Kerry's military record on Kerry's website. Lots more. I can see them with my own eyes.

That makes the gap between 6 and 100 pages ("full file") much smaller than the 94 you were trying to suggest couldn't be just medical records. Because those on his website would have to be included in the superset of "full file"... and because author characterizes the "full file" (of military records) as having "at least a hundred pages"... and because a "full file" means all millitary records on file... it's reasonable for even a skeptical adult with basic logic skills to conclude that there aren't 94 missing documents.

There are far fewer than that. In fact there are about 100 minus how ever many pages of military records are posted on Kerry's website. Assuming that the number 100 is a reasonable estimate to begin with.

Donger
09-08-2004, 12:29 PM
This is one of your most childish conversations I've ever been apart of.

:shake:

I have no idea what's in the mind of the author of anything, this article is no different. I don't know what they are referring to. I do know that there are more than 6 pages of documents from Kerry's military record on Kerry's website. Lots more. I can see them with my own eyes.

That makes the gap between 6 and 100 pages ("full file") much smaller than the 94 you were trying to suggest couldn't be just medical records. Because those on his website would have to be included in the superset of "full file"... and because author characterizes the "full file" (of military records) as having "at least a hundred pages"... and because a "full file" means all millitary records on file... it's reasonable for even a skeptical adult with basic logic skills to conclude that there aren't 94 missing documents.

There are far fewer than that. In fact there are about 100 minus how ever many pages of military records are posted on Kerry's website. Assuming that the number 100 is a reasonable estimate to begin with.

So, you don't know whether the files that have not been released are on Kerry's website.

Thanks!

Matt Helm
09-08-2004, 12:30 PM
They are medical records.

They are NOT medical records in total, you are making that up. There are many pages of the service record that have not been released. A typical service record has approximately 40 pages by the time you reach 3 years of service. If you have done anything (i.e. SS BS ph) there are added pages.

The medical record for that long would be very few pages, even with the "wounds" that would have been associated with the ph's.

I have 29 years of accumulated medical records from the military and they do not equal 100 pages.

Matt Helm
09-08-2004, 12:33 PM
But, but, but did he LIE about THREE PURPLE HEARTS? :hmmm:

I don't know if he lied about the ph's. My question would be how many veterans of the Viet Nam War got three Purple Hearts and didn't miss a day of service? I've only heard of one: junior officer skerry!!!

Matt Helm
09-08-2004, 12:35 PM
So what do you think are in the other 94+ pages? All medical records?

You know that jaz doesn't have the capability to think!!

Just for the sake of argument, the medical records are not held in the same place that service records are held. How would one officer say that there are 100 pages and only 6 could be released if he didn't have access to the medical records?

The site that jiz refers to has quite a few pages of his record listed, not all of his records are there, but we already knew that.

His medical records are still sealed.

jAZ
09-08-2004, 12:36 PM
They are NOT medical records in total, you are making that up. There are many pages of the service record that have not been released. A typical service record has approximately 40 pages by the time you reach 3 years of service. If you have done anything (i.e. SS BS ph) there are added pages.

The medical record for that long would be very few pages, even with the "wounds" that would have been associated with the ph's.

I have 29 years of accumulated medical records from the military and they do not equal 100 pages.
Well, I'm sure you are skeptical that the estimate of 100 pages is likely inflated... because it just makes no sense in your world. Right?

HC_Chief
09-08-2004, 12:42 PM
So when are the Kerry records going to be released to the public?

Bush already made his available :p

Matt Helm
09-08-2004, 12:46 PM
Well, I'm sure you are skeptical that the estimate of 100 pages is likely inflated... because it just makes no sense in your world. Right?

Exlpain what you feel my world would be?

I have 8 years active service (skerry had fewer) I have 21 years associated with the reserve (with pay records). I can compare skerry's records to those of the sailors that work for me on an ongoing basis.

I am in the U.S. Navy, skerry was in the U.S. Navy so it would seem that I am comparing apples to apples here.

Now just what fvking world would you be talking about you dumass.

jAZ
09-08-2004, 12:48 PM
Exlpain what you feel my world would be?
Based on the scattered, confused, disconnected, hateful, insulting, attacking posts you create here, I can't honestly say I have any idea what your world would be. But I know it's not mine.

HC_Chief
09-08-2004, 12:51 PM
r8r you big meanie.

You, you.... REPUBLICAN!! *gasp....swoon*

:D

Matt Helm
09-08-2004, 12:52 PM
Based on the scattered, confused, disconnected, hateful, insulting, attacking posts you create here, I can't honestly say I have any idea what your would would be. But I know it's not mine.

pot kettle, have you met?

You should talk!!!!

My base of information is in the real world where yours is clearly made up to further your cause.

I defy you to find ONE SINGLE service members record that would compare with skerrys, just one!!!

If you weren't blinded by your hatred, you could have figured out something in the post I made but your little choo choo has chugged around the bend.

You don't agree with facts that I present (not all of them are off the wall), but you don't have the actual answer and refuse to consider that you are wrong.

You are fvked up worse than Hogans goat!!