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View Full Version : US Military: The memos are likely forged


alnorth
09-10-2004, 04:10 PM
Fox News story with an interview with many military officials

Two new problems:

1) Commanders do not write a personal letter to a pilot ordering them to take a physical.

2) The memo said that Bush had to take his physical by some defined date that I forget (May something?) However, this is false. According to military rules, TANG pilots needed to have their physical by the last day of their birth month, which was different from what the memo said.

Taco John
09-10-2004, 04:38 PM
Well it's simple then. All George Bush has to do is deny the story, and it'll go away.

Mr. Kotter
09-10-2004, 04:54 PM
Well it's simple then. All George Bush has to do is deny the story, and it'll go away.

Do you expect Kerry to answer the remaining questions about his service too then? :hmmm:

Joe Seahawk
09-10-2004, 05:01 PM
$10,500 to anyone that can reasonably reproduce that memo with a typewriter available at the time..

ROFL

click here (http://defeatjohnjohn.com/2004/09/10000-part-two-ibm-selectric.htm) to enter..

KCWolfman
09-10-2004, 05:42 PM
Well it's simple then. All George Bush has to do is deny the story, and it'll go away.
He said while stating Kerry should not deny the allegations regarding Vietnam and Cambodia.

BigOlChiefsfan
09-10-2004, 05:55 PM
http://acepilots.com/mt/archives/001216.html

Thig Lyfe
09-10-2004, 06:45 PM
$10,500 to anyone that can reasonably reproduce that memo with a typewriter available at the time..

ROFL

click here (http://defeatjohnjohn.com/2004/09/10000-part-two-ibm-selectric.htm) to enter..

ROFL

This forgery bizness is getting very interesting.

Joe Seahawk
09-10-2004, 06:59 PM
http://instapundit.com/images/ratherlogo.jpg

Taco John
09-10-2004, 07:00 PM
He said while stating Kerry should not deny the allegations regarding Vietnam and Cambodia.


Actually I said it to point out the hypocrisy of the people who were calling for Kerry to deny the first allegations. It's interesting to me to witness the double standard that exists in such "principled" individuals.

nychief
09-10-2004, 07:09 PM
fox news? good one.

Cochise
09-10-2004, 07:10 PM
fox news? good one.

Care to dispute the two points presented?

Thig Lyfe
09-10-2004, 07:15 PM
http://instapundit.com/images/ratherlogo.jpg

ROFL That is hilarious

BigOlChiefsfan
09-10-2004, 07:18 PM
http://wizbangblog.com/images/clippyhoax.jpg

nychief
09-10-2004, 07:20 PM
well no. but here goes...

wait, let me say first, I could give a shit about Bush in the ANG. I only care about what he has done as president the last four years. - that being said, the frm. Texas Air National Guard ass. director during this time has gone on the record as saying these sort of notes where not unusual for the time. These spots on the ANG where highly sought after and there where tons of favors called in by every sort of person to get family on the list. This was not normal procedure, people's reputations where on the line for handing these appointments out... meaning there was a lot more personal paper work being done.

Fox is not credible in this case. But again, lets talk about the one thing that no one wants to... the issues.

nychief
09-10-2004, 07:21 PM
did any of you watch CBS tonight?

Baby Lee
09-10-2004, 07:22 PM
Well it's simple then. All George Bush has to do is deny the story, and it'll go away.
If this turns out to be forgeries and the story then goes away, then shame on the entire journalistic community.

KCWolfman
09-10-2004, 07:23 PM
well no. but here goes...

wait, let me say first, I could give a shit about Bush in the ANG. I only care about what he has done as president the last four years. - that being said, the frm. Texas Air National Guard ass. director during this time has gone on the record as saying these sort of notes where not unusual for the time. These spots on the ANG where highly sought after and there where tons of favors called in by every sort of person to get family on the list. This was not normal procedure, people's reputations where on the line for handing these appointments out... meaning there was a lot more personal paper work being done.

Fox is not credible in this case. But again, lets talk about the one thing that no one wants to... the issues.
Fox is not credible, but Dan Rather and "We are not telling you who authenticated" CBS is?

TJ is right, double standards are rife with this topic.

Thig Lyfe
09-10-2004, 07:26 PM
If this turns out to be forgeries and the story then goes away, then shame on the entire journalistic community.

Exactly.

If they are indeed forgeries, they are the biggest story in media since maybe Deep Throat. This is a serious, serious indictment of the media and its liberal bias.

Okay, maybe not Deep Throat. And I doubt that it will adversely affect the election. But this is a huge journalistic scandal if it proves to be true.

KCWolfman
09-10-2004, 07:26 PM
Exactly.

If they are indeed forgeries, they are the biggest story in media since maybe Deep Throat. This is a serious, serious indictment of the media and its liberal bias.

Okay, maybe not Deep Throat. And I doubt that it will adversely affect the election. But this is a huge journalistic scandal if it proves to be true.
See NBC and exploding Pintos.

OldTownChief
09-10-2004, 07:27 PM
If this turns out to be forgeries and the story then goes away, then shame on the entire journalistic community.

No way they can let it go away. If it's proven there forgeries, it needs to be followed all the way back to the source and someone needs to be jailed.

Thig Lyfe
09-10-2004, 07:30 PM
See NBC and exploding Pintos.

Well, the exploding pinto was pretty whack. But it did not concern an important upcoming election, nor did it use smear tactics on a President.

Consumer saftey-wise, that's the biggest journalistic fiasco. But politically these possible forgeries are much bigger.

Frazod
09-10-2004, 07:31 PM
http://wizbangblog.com/images/clippyhoax.jpg

That's awesome! ROFL

Joe Seahawk
09-10-2004, 07:40 PM
Here is a typed up version merging with the CBS document as an animated gif.. From little green footballs.

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/


http://homepage.mac.com/cfj/.Pictures/aug181973-overlay.gif

Thig Lyfe
09-10-2004, 07:42 PM
Here is a typed up version merging with the CBS document as an animated gif.. From little green footballs


http://homepage.mac.com/cfj/.Pictures/aug181973-overlay.gif

Nice

Joe Seahawk
09-10-2004, 07:43 PM
well no. but here goes...

wait, let me say first, I could give a shit about Bush in the ANG. I only care about what he has done as president the last four years. - that being said, the frm. Texas Air National Guard ass. director during this time has gone on the record as saying these sort of notes where not unusual for the time. These spots on the ANG where highly sought after and there where tons of favors called in by every sort of person to get family on the list. This was not normal procedure, people's reputations where on the line for handing these appointments out... meaning there was a lot more personal paper work being done.

Fox is not credible in this case. But again, lets talk about the one thing that no one wants to... the issues.


All that has nothing to do with the fact that CBS used phony documents in their 60 minutes story..

Frazod
09-10-2004, 08:15 PM
Some thoughts:

That "th" superscript thing is a standard default in Word. You have to remove it from autocorrect to make it go away. That's one of the first things I do when I first use Word on a new computer - I personally think it looks bad and don't ever use it. Of course, I do this shit for a living, so I'm up on stuff like that. To the casual typist, it would simply be a natural thing to use.

Even if some asshat can produce an old IBM Selectric element (proper name for the "golf ball") that has the ordinal "th" on it, why bother using it? It would probably be a special symbol which could only be typed by hitting shift plus a number key. It's not like your typical Army officer is an expert typist, and if it was a special element, the "th" symbol would not be on the corresponding key on the keyboard. It's simply easier to hit the "t" and the "h." It is nearly impossible for me to believe this.

Anybody who's ever been in the military should easily recognize that this memo is NOT written in the typical military style. It's kind of hard to describe exactly what a military style is, but the shit gets beat into you quickly if you deal with military correspondence on a regular basis. It's very blunt, direct, and not conversational, using lots of abbreviations and acronyms. This simply isn't written correctly. It took me a couple of months to revert back to normal after I got out.

If it looks like it, feels like it and smells like it, that's what it is. This is bullshit.

RINGLEADER
09-10-2004, 08:17 PM
Actually I said it to point out the hypocrisy of the people who were calling for Kerry to deny the first allegations. It's interesting to me to witness the double standard that exists in such "principled" individuals.


I just want him to explain the charges that his notes, his past speeches, his supporters and his campaign now say are contradictory with earlier statements he's made or publicized.

When the Bush campaign admits to something then they should answer it. Until then the documents are all forgeries in the minds of most who are paying attention (because that's the only thing the media is talking about right now).

Thig Lyfe
09-10-2004, 08:18 PM
If it looks like it, feels like it and smells like it, that's what it is. This is bullshit.

You sound like Terrell Owens. But you are correct nonetheless.

OldTownChief
09-10-2004, 08:21 PM
Does CBS claim that the docs are the originals or copies? Couldnt an expert be able to tell how old the paper is. The ones I've seen look like they were run through a copy machine a few dozen times.

RINGLEADER
09-10-2004, 08:22 PM
did any of you watch CBS tonight?


Can you point to where they refute the problems with these letters? Because I can't find it in the transcript beyond their claim that typewriters existed at the time that could do 'a' and typewriters existed at the time that could do 'b'. Then they brought out a guy who said the signature was reviewed. Then they said that Times New Roman existed at the time (but don't point to typewriters that used it). They don't show some order that shows the Air Force/National Guard had those types of devices. They don't explain why the kerning on certain portions of the letter are different than what typewriters or today produce.

I did hear Dan Rather complaining that partisans were attacking his precious little story that he somehow KNOWS is truthful despite the fact that they now concede that they never had the original documents.

Face it, the docs are forgeries, and it has been my belief from the beginning that it was orchestrated by the GOP from the very beginning. Kerry got desperate and reached...and now he's getting burned by it.

Joe Seahawk
09-10-2004, 08:23 PM
Does CBS claim that the docs are the originals or copies? Couldnt an expert be able to tell how old the paper is. The ones I've seen look like they were run through a copy machine a few dozen times.

They say they have a first generation copy..

RINGLEADER
09-10-2004, 08:24 PM
If this turns out to be forgeries and the story then goes away, then shame on the entire journalistic community.


I get the sense that Dan Rather fancies himself a modern-day Ben Bradlee, saying "F*CK it...we're going to stand by our documents" while everyone at CBS is telling him that only partisan internet sites are attacking his precious little memos.

KCWolfman
09-10-2004, 08:26 PM
They say they have a first generation copy..
But again, they refuse to state who authenticated the documents.

For a news agency, they sure aren't releasing 100% of the story.

If they end up with shit on their faces from this one, jAZ and his buddies will have a hard time selling "no liberal media" crap from their wobbly soap boxes.

RINGLEADER
09-10-2004, 08:32 PM
Some thoughts:

That "th" superscript thing is a standard default in Word. You have to remove it from autocorrect to make it go away. That's one of the first things I do when I first use Word on a new computer - I personally think it looks bad and don't ever use it. Of course, I do this shit for a living, so I'm up on stuff like that. To the casual typist, it would simply be a natural thing to use.

Even if some asshat can produce an old IBM Selectric element (proper name for the "golf ball") that has the ordinal "th" on it, why bother using it? It would probably be a special symbol which could only be typed by hitting shift plus a number key. It's not like your typical Army officer is an expert typist, and if it was a special element, the "th" symbol would not be on the corresponding key on the keyboard. It's simply easier to hit the "t" and the "h." It is nearly impossible for me to believe this.

Anybody who's ever been in the military should easily recognize that this memo is NOT written in the typical military style. It's kind of hard to describe exactly what a military style is, but the shit gets beat into you quickly if you deal with military correspondence on a regular basis. It's very blunt, direct, and not conversational, using lots of abbreviations and acronyms. This simply isn't written correctly. It took me a couple of months to revert back to normal after I got out.

If it looks like it, feels like it and smells like it, that's what it is. This is bullshit.


I did my first writing assignments on an old Selectric 2 (the blue one). Over the weekend I had some old documents fall into my lap that were written on this machine and did it bring back (nicely timed) memories.

Some things I remember about this machine: You could do super-script, but you had to do it manually by rolling up the paper one click and the letters were just the standard letters. There was no TM button, although the selectric that I had allowed you to change a couple of the buttons with these special white caps that fit over the old buttons.

Another feature of the selectric let you center text. It was a weird process where the carriage would be moving all over the place, but it could do it. I can't speak for how it could line things up on separate lines, but you could center things (as I can see from the headline on one of the pages that I found).

But one of the things that is VERY weird about these documents is that whoever wrote them decided to hit the RETURN button (to start a new line) at the exact same spots that Microsoft Word does it automatically. That takes quite a few coincidences (and it doesn't even address the wrap-around that most people used before word processors came along).

There are just too many things wrong with these documents and the fact that CBS now concedes that they didn't have the original documents cast their original reporting into even more doubt.

Frazod
09-10-2004, 08:33 PM
Times New Roman my ass.

Good lord, how dumb do these people think we are? :banghead:

Joe Seahawk
09-10-2004, 08:34 PM
This guy tried like hell to re-create the document with a Selectric Composer.. Obviously it wasn't even close to matching. Compare the results to thee gif image I posted earlier..

CBS needs to get nailed on this..


http://shapeofdays.typepad.com/

Frazod
09-10-2004, 08:38 PM
I did my first writing assignments on an old Selectric 2 (the blue one). Over the weekend I had some old documents fall into my lap that were written on this machine and did it bring back (nicely timed) memories.

Some things I remember about this machine: You could do super-script, but you had to do it manually by rolling up the paper one click and the letters were just the standard letters. There was no TM button, although the selectric that I had allowed you to change a couple of the buttons with these special white caps that fit over the old buttons.

Another feature of the selectric let you center text. It was a weird process where the carriage would be moving all over the place, but it could do it. I can't speak for how it could line things up on separate lines, but you could center things (as I can see from the headline on one of the pages that I found).

But one of the things that is VERY weird about these documents is that whoever wrote them decided to hit the RETURN button (to start a new line) at the exact same spots that Microsoft Word does it automatically. That takes quite a few coincidences (and it doesn't even address the wrap-around that most people used before word processors came along).

There are just too many things wrong with these documents and the fact that CBS now concedes that they didn't have the original documents cast their original reporting into even more doubt.

If they could center text, I don't remember it. I always did it manually, by centering to 50 (using an Elite 12-point element) or 42 (using a Pica 10-point element), and then backspacing one space for every two letters in the centered text.

You make a good point about the alleged hard returns matching the Word soft returns. Just too many coincidences. It's bullshit.

OldTownChief
09-10-2004, 08:47 PM
I'm no lawyer so I have no idea if all this is criminal or not, but hopefully at the very least this will end up in a civil suit and the truth would come out for a jury to decide. Someone needs to pay no matter which side of the political arena your in.

Braincase
09-10-2004, 08:59 PM
Next thing you know. someone will forge a picture of John Kerry and Jane Fonda at some pinko peace rally...

OldTownChief
09-10-2004, 09:03 PM
Next thing you know. someone will forge a picture of John Kerry and Jane Fonda at some pinko peace rally...

But that wouldnt be a forgery.

yoswif
09-10-2004, 09:17 PM
I don't see how it can be legal to forge documents under a military letterhead and use those forged documents in a "news" story. How could the government allow individuals or private organizations, including journalists and news organizations, to use forged documents under a military letterhead for personal or professional gain? IMO, allowing these forgeries to go unpunished would defraud all those possessing authentic military documents by diminishing the value of authentic documents to that of forgeries. This warrants a criminal investigation and serious charges if these alleged "military" documents are forgeries.

Frazod
09-10-2004, 09:23 PM
I don't see how it can be legal to forge documents under a military letterhead and use those forged documents in a "news" story. How could the government allow individuals or private organizations, including journalists and news organizations, to use forged documents under a military letterhead for personal or professional gain? IMO, allowing these forgeries to go unpunished would defraud all those possessing authentic military documents by diminishing the value of authentic documents to that of forgeries. This warrants a criminal investigation and serious charges if these alleged "military" documents are forgeries.

I'd have to agree with that. This crap has got to breaking some kind of law. I would imagine that using fraudulent documents in an attempt to discredit THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES is something that might somebody in a bit of trouble.

LVNHACK
09-10-2004, 09:25 PM
I'd have to agree with that. This crap has got to breaking some kind of law. I would imagine that using fraudulent documents in an attempt to discredit THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES is something that might somebody in a bit of trouble.




I got just the place for 'em...................:evil:

Frazod
09-10-2004, 09:26 PM
I got just the place for 'em...................:evil:

ROFL

yoswif
09-10-2004, 10:03 PM
I'd have to agree with that. This crap has got to breaking some kind of law. I would imagine that using fraudulent documents in an attempt to discredit THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES is something that might somebody in a bit of trouble.

I'm no lawyer, but I would think libel and slander would be for civil court. IMO, those possessing authentic military documents would be criminally defrauded if an individual or private organization used forged military documents for personal or professional gain. If mail and wire communications are used in the fraudulent scheme, serious conspiracy charges would apply as well.

If CBS has to worry about losing their FCC license or having to plea to some corporate crimes for allowing Rather's fraud, maybe they'll hire some professional journalists at CBS news.

Mr. Kotter
09-10-2004, 10:06 PM
I got just the place for 'em...................:evil:

Have I mentioned this?

As a kid, I lived at 1601 Metropolitan in Leavenworth....then, it was a lone house, at the edge of town adjacent to a horse pasture that they've since repaved Metropolitan through... :thumb:

I spent many nights going to sleep, listening to Royals games (victories, usually THEN...) forgetting to turn off the AM transitor radio that I put under my pillow so my parents wouldn't know I was still awake....and staring at the lights of the Federal Pen....

Wow. In some ways, it seems like yesterday.... :shake:

Mr. Kotter
09-10-2004, 10:08 PM
I'm no lawyer, but I would think libel and slander would be for civil court. IMO, those possessing authentic military documents would be criminally defrauded if an individual or private organization used forged military documents for personal or professional gain. If mail and wire communications are used in the fraudulent scheme, serious conspiracy charges would apply as well.

If CBS has to worry about losing their FCC license or having to plea to some corporate crimes for allowing Rather's fraud, maybe they'll hire some professional journalists at CBS news.

I'm enjoyin' the hell out of this chit.... ROFL

LVNHACK
09-10-2004, 10:14 PM
Have I mentioned this?

As a kid, I lived at 1601 Metropolitan in Leavenworth....then, it was a lone house, at the edge of town adjacent to a horse pasture that they've since repaved Metropolitan through... :thumb:

I spent many nights going to sleep, listening to Royals games (victories, usually THEN...) forgetting to turn off the AM transitor radio that I put under my pillow so my parents wouldn't know I was still awake....and staring at the lights of the Federal Pen....

Wow. In some ways, it seems like yesterday.... :shake:


Damn I live at 910 Metro, on the prison grounds.........

LVNHACK
09-10-2004, 10:15 PM
If CBS has to worry about losing their FCC license or having to plea to some corporate crimes for allowing Rather's fraud, maybe they'll hire some professional journalists at CBS news.




I wonder if cbs will let jAZ post from work.......

Mr. Kotter
09-10-2004, 10:20 PM
Damn I live at 910 Metro, on the prison grounds.........

I'd walk or ride my bike to that convenience store east of the prison on Metropolitan (it's something else now--next to the Amoco), to get chips, candy, or pop whenever I made a little money....

LVNHACK
09-10-2004, 10:21 PM
I'd walk or ride my bike to that convenience store east of the prison on Metropolitan (it's something else now--next to the Amoco), to get chips, candy, or pop whenever I made a little money....



Man they got a little hard body working in there now............ :drool:

Mr. Kotter
09-10-2004, 10:23 PM
Man they got a little hard body working in there now............ :drool:

ROFL

I'll have to check it...er, her, out....on my next trip through to see my dad and bro... :hmmm:

Thig Lyfe
09-11-2004, 07:07 AM
I wonder if cbs will let jAZ post from work.......

ROFL

KCWolfman
09-11-2004, 07:22 AM
I wonder if cbs will let jAZ post from work.......
Sure, but he has to keep creating, er I mean authenticating, documents to full quota.

Baby Lee
09-11-2004, 07:47 AM
Next thing you know. someone will forge a picture of John Kerry and Jane Fonda at some pinko peace rally...
If that were forged and presented as factual on a NETWORK NEWS PROGRAM instead of some fark-esque internet site, it'd be just as big a deal.

LVNHACK
09-11-2004, 08:09 AM
Sure, but he has to keep creating, er I mean authenticating, documents to full quota.




That'll be though......Ya know he'll be looking for links between aliens & Bigfoot being placed on Earth because of Bush.........

jAZ
09-11-2004, 09:57 AM
http://instapundit.com/images/ratherlogo.jpg
ROFL

RINGLEADER
09-11-2004, 10:47 AM
Next thing you know. someone will forge a picture of John Kerry and Jane Fonda at some pinko peace rally...


ROFL

I don't think the RNC put that photo out and then spent a week holding press conferences saying Kerry was an anti-war activist that hung out with Hanoi Jane.

It was pretty evident that the events of the week by the DNC were orchestrated around these documents. It's pretty apparent that they were a) desperate enough to think this is the only way they could drag Bush down and b) completely committed to building their case that Bush is a liar on documents that are now proven to be fakes.

As I said on another thread, I hope Kerry loses 5 points this week. I think believing that he is hurting Kerry's chances of re-election is even more hurtful to Rather than losing his job or getting a demerit would be.

BigOlChiefsfan
09-12-2004, 06:29 AM
Might have found another one:

http://www.imao.us/archives/001903.html