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RINGLEADER
09-10-2004, 08:46 PM
Pretty soon Dan Rather will be all out of "sources"...from ABC News:

Retired Maj. General Hodges, Killian's supervisor at the Grd, tells ABC News that he feels CBS misled him about the documents they uncovered. According to Hodges, CBS told him the documents were "handwritten" and after CBS read him excerpts he said, "well if he wrote them that's what he felt."

Hodges also said he did not see the documents in the 70's and he cannot authenticate the documents or the contents. His personal belief is that the documents have been "computer generated" and are a "fraud".

Joe Seahawk
09-10-2004, 08:47 PM
FRY CBS FRY!!

This kind of stuff seriously concerns me..

KCFalcon59
09-10-2004, 08:50 PM
ROFL ROFL ROFL

Damn this is getting crazier by the minute.

OldTownChief
09-10-2004, 08:51 PM
FRY CBS FRY!!

This kind of stuff seriously concerns me..

Same here..It rates right up there with Howard Dean's meltdown.

Mr. Kotter
09-10-2004, 08:51 PM
Friggin' hilarious....this is gettin' hysterically funnier by the hour... ROFL

KCWolfman
09-10-2004, 08:54 PM
Wow, I wonder if this is enough proof for saggysack or he needs more?


The wheel's they are a fallin'............. off

alnorth
09-10-2004, 09:01 PM
I'm not doubting this, but people on other boards are gonna demand a link from me. Has this hit the internet yet?

RINGLEADER
09-10-2004, 09:05 PM
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/politics/NotedNow/Noted_Now.html


Glad to help Al! :thumb:

Mr. Kotter
09-10-2004, 09:09 PM
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/politics/NotedNow/Noted_Now.html


Glad to help Al! :thumb:

Is it just me, or is anyone else pleasantly surprised that this whole episode has driven the libbies into hiding...with the exception and brief and "huffy" visists from a few (jAZ, Saggy, and TJ (--I know, he's a Liberitarian... :rolleyes: ) most have been conspicuously absent and/or quiet....

ROFL

alnorth
09-10-2004, 09:12 PM
I'm really starting to like ABC's "The Note"

They are NOT a right-wing friendly entity, they are still under the liberal monolith of the major networks, but... in their note section, they tend to drop the official tone just a bit, let down their guard and be a bit more honest and casual. They also try to be fair, sometimes hitting Bush, sometimes Kerry, sometimes they arent fair, but no one's perfect.

OldTownChief
09-10-2004, 09:13 PM
Is it just me, or is anyone else pleasantly surprised that this whole episode has driven the libbies into hiding...with the exception and brief and "huffy" visists from a few (jAZ, Saggy, and TJ (--I know, he's a Liberitarian... :rolleyes: ) most have been conspicuously absent and/or quiet....

ROFL


ROFL The jAZ counter thread about the prisoners was like bringing a knife to a gun fight.

RINGLEADER
09-10-2004, 09:14 PM
Is it just me, or is anyone else pleasantly surprised that this whole episode has driven the libbies into hiding...with the exception and brief and "huffy" visists from a few (jAZ, Saggy, and TJ (--I know, he's a Liberitarian... :rolleyes: ) most have been conspicuously absent and/or quiet....

ROFL


I understand why.

I feel for these guys...they like their guy and their beliefs every bit as much as I think my beliefs are right. I give Jaz a hard time because he's a little more rigid in these beliefs than most might be, but give the guy credit for being a good partisan. Nothing wrong with that. But he does seem to hang onto unsupportable ideas and he is a bit eager to buy into the conspiracy theories necessary to explain away some of Kerry's behavior.

Anyway, I would be going nuts if my candidate was Kerry. Not only is he a wet-noodle most of the time, his campaign has been totally out-maneuvered by the Bush campaign. I can imagine the Dems down at the DNC just banging their heads off the walls in total disbelief that the guy who went to Vietnam can't make it an issue (of course this is because Kerry has exaggerated just enough of his biography to call all aspects into question and his less than flattering opposition to the service he now touts as the cornerstone of his campaign).

Oh well, what can you do. :shrug:

RINGLEADER
09-10-2004, 09:15 PM
I'm really starting to like ABC's "The Note"

They are NOT a right-wing friendly entity, they are still under the liberal monolith of the major networks, but... in their note section, they tend to drop the official tone just a bit, let down their guard and be a bit more honest and casual. They also try to be fair, sometimes hitting Bush, sometimes Kerry, sometimes they arent fair, but no one's perfect.


The Note is a good summary to read in the morning...

FringeNC
09-10-2004, 09:18 PM
It gets worse. Not only did they interview Killian's wife and kid, who strongly suggested he did not write the memo, there's this from the AP:

"Casting further doubt on the memos, The Dallas Morning News said in a report for its Saturday editions that the officer named in a memo as exerting pressure to "sugar coat" Bush's record had left the Texas Air National Guard 1 1/2 years before the memo was dated.

The newspaper said it obtained an order showing that Walter B. Staudt, former commander of the Texas Guard, retired on March 1, 1972. The memo was dated Aug. 18, 1973. A telephone call to Staudt's home Friday night was not answered. "

At this point, firing Rather isn't sufficient. The entire CBS News staff needs to be gutted. It is rotten to the core.

alnorth
09-10-2004, 09:19 PM
Anyway, I would be going nuts if my candidate was Kerry.

Do I really need to remind you of Bob Dole in 1996? :shake:

That was... very painful. All year I knew we would get our ass kicked and thered be nothing we could do about it, sometimes I put on the brave face and made myself believe we could win, but we had one horrible loser of a candidate. I could barely bring myself to vote and watch the returns that day. It was so bad our freaking congressional candidates ran a commercial telling the people not to write Clinton a blank check, essentially saying "we know your going to re-elect clinton, but you dont want to give him congress, do ya?"

Everybody out there, think about 1996 a while.... and then feel some sympathy for pool ol jaz. He's going through a hard time right now, and we've all been there 2 cycles ago.

OldTownChief
09-10-2004, 09:20 PM
Anyway, I would be going nuts if my candidate was Kerry. Not only is he a wet-noodle most of the time, his campaign has been totally out-maneuvered by the Bush campaign. I can imagine the Dems down at the DNC just banging their heads off the walls in total disbelief that the guy who went to Vietnam can't make it an issue (of course this is because Kerry has exaggerated just enough of his biography to call all aspects into question and his less than flattering opposition to the service he now touts as the cornerstone of his campaign).

Oh well, what can you do. :shrug:

It's almost not fair anymore, Kerry himself is probably the one banging his head for running in the first place, or his wierd wife is pounding his ass every night.

RINGLEADER
09-10-2004, 09:32 PM
Do I really need to remind you of Bob Dole in 1996? :shake:

That was... very painful. All year I knew we would get our ass kicked and thered be nothing we could do about it, sometimes I put on the brave face and made myself believe we could win, but we had one horrible loser of a candidate. I could barely bring myself to vote and watch the returns that day. It was so bad our freaking congressional candidates ran a commercial telling the people not to write Clinton a blank check, essentially saying "we know your going to re-elect clinton, but you dont want to give him congress, do ya?"

Everybody out there, think about 1996 a while.... and then feel some sympathy for pool ol jaz. He's going through a hard time right now, and we've all been there 2 cycles ago.


I was saying months ago that this campaign would be 1996 redux. I agree with your points totally.

RINGLEADER
09-10-2004, 09:36 PM
I wonder what the breaking point for Rather will be...his "defense" tonight was so weak it isn't going to stand up...he seems to think that a few internet partisans are the only ones responsible for the dust-up. When the DMN and NBC and ABC and USA Today and the AP and UPI and everyone else is saying they can't be replicated and that key facts are wrong it is going to get even worse.

Listening to him scream about partisan hacks on the internet being the primary people questioning his precious little report made him sound like an extension of the Kerry campaign. It would be sweet justice if this episode were to put Kerry even further behind...if Rather woke up and discovered that he was (in his own mind) responsible for a Bush victory I think that would be even better than seeing him get canned.

OldTownChief
09-10-2004, 09:44 PM
I wonder what the breaking point for Rather will be...his "defense" tonight was so weak it isn't going to stand up...he seems to think that a few internet partisans are the only ones responsible for the dust-up. When the DMN and NBC and ABC and USA Today and the AP and UPI and everyone else is saying they can't be replicated and that key facts are wrong it is going to get even worse.

Listening to him scream about partisan hacks on the internet being the primary people questioning his precious little report made him sound like an extension of the Kerry campaign. It would be sweet justice if this episode were to put Kerry even further behind...if Rather woke up and discovered that he was (in his own mind) responsible for a Bush victory I think that would be even better than seeing him get canned.


Hopefully Fox news wont let it die, they were all over it today.

Mr. Kotter
09-10-2004, 09:51 PM
.... It would be sweet justice if this episode were to put Kerry even further behind...if Rather woke up and discovered that he was (in his own mind) responsible for a Bush victory I think that would be even better than seeing him get canned.

ROFL ROFL ROFL

RINGLEADER
09-10-2004, 09:52 PM
Evidently the Dallas Morning News story picks at the facts contained in the letters and comes to the conclusion that they're probably fake too...

Joe Seahawk
09-10-2004, 09:57 PM
Posted on Fri, Sep. 10, 2004

http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansas/news/special_packages/election2004/9633814.htm



Man named in Bush memo left Guard before document was written

BY PETE SLOVER

The Dallas Morning News


AUSTIN, Texas - (KRT) - The man named in a disputed memo as exerting pressure to "sugar coat" President Bush's military record left the Texas Air National Guard a year and a half before the memo was supposedly written, his own service record shows.

An order obtained by The Dallas Morning News shows that Col. Walter "Buck" Staudt was honorably discharged on March 1, 1972. CBS News reported this week that a memo in which Staudt was described as interfering with officers' negative evaluations of Bush's service, was dated Aug. 18, 1973.

That added to mounting questions about the authenticity of documents that seem to suggest Bush sought special favors and did not fulfill his service.

Staudt, who lives in New Braunfels, Texas, did not return calls seeking comment. His discharge paper was among a packet of documents obtained by The Dallas Morning News from official sources during 1999 research into Bush's Guard record.

A CBS staffer stood by the story, suggesting that Staudt could have continued to exert influence over Guard officials. But a former high-ranking Guard official disputed that, saying retirement would have left Staudt powerless over remaining officials.

The authenticity of the memo and three others included in Wednesday's "60 Minutes" report came in for heavy criticism Friday, prompting an unusual on-air defense of the original work. Experts on typography said they appeared to have been computer-drafted on equipment not available in the late 1960s and early 1970s.

And the family of the officer who supposedly wrote them, Lt. Col. Jerry Killian, who died in 1984, said it wasn't his nature to keep detailed personal notes.

In its network news broadcast Friday, CBS said the documents were supported by both unnamed witnesses and others, including document examiners.

Earlier, CBS anchor Dan Rather told The Dallas Morning News that he had heard nothing to make him question the legitimacy of the memos. He attributed the backlash to partisan politics and competitive journalism.

"This story is true. The questions we raised about then-Lieutenant Bush's National Guard service are serious and legitimate," he said, expressing confidence the memos are authentic. "Until and unless someone shows me definitive proof that they are not, I don't see any reason to carry on a conversation with the professional rumor mill."

The interview concluded before The Dallas Morning News determined the date of Staudt's departure, so that issue was not included. But a CBS staffer with extensive knowledge of the story said later that the departure doesn't derail the story.

"From what we've learned, Staudt remained very active after he retired," the staffer said, speaking on the condition of anonymity. "He was a very bullying type, and that could have continued."

In the "60 Minutes" report, Rather said of the memo's contents: "Killian says Col. Buck Staudt, the man in charge of the Texas Air National Guard, is putting on pressure to `sugar coat' an evaluation of Lt. Bush."

Staudt was the person Bush initially contacted about Guard service, and he was the group commander at Ellington Air Force Base in Houston when Bush arrived there to fly an F-102 jet. He later transferred to Austin, where he served as the chief of staff for the Air National Guard.

In the disputed memo, Killian supposedly wrote "(another officer) gave me a message today from group regarding Bush's (evaluation) and Staudt is pushing to sugar coat it."

It continues: "Austin is not happy either."

The CBS staffer said that the memo appears to recognize that Staudt has retired, since it differentiates between his displeasure and that of Austin, where he served his final Guard stint.

But another Texas Air National Guard official who served in that period said the memo appears to wrongly associate Staudt with his group command in Houston, and - based on that mistake - the memo distinguishes his views from that of the Austin Guard headquarters.

Retired Col. Earl Lively, who was director of Air National Guard operations for the state headquarters during 1972 and 1973 said Staudt "wasn't on the scene" after retirement, and that CBS' remote-bullying thesis makes no sense.

"He couldn't bully them. He wasn't in the Guard," Lively said. "He couldn't affect their promotions. Once you're gone from the Guard, you don't have any authority."

The report about the memos originally appeared to stir anew longstanding questions about Bush's Guard service, including whether he defied a direct order to take a physical exam, and whether his suspension from flying was partly for failure to meet military performance standards.

The campaign of Bush's Democratic rival, John Kerry, stood mostly mum, saying Bush should answer all questions about his service. Earlier this year, though, Kerry aides raised the exact points the memo seemed to address.

Bush has not commented publicly about the CBS report, and aides say his honorable discharge proves he fulfilled his obligations.

But the White House, which contends that all known records of Bush's service have been released, also took the unusual step of distributing the CBS memos to reporters the night of the broadcast.

"We don't know whether the (CBS) documents were fabricated or are authentic," White House press secretary Scott McClellan said Friday.

---

Mr. Kotter
09-10-2004, 09:58 PM
Posted on Fri, Sep. 10, 2004





Man named in Bush memo left Guard before document was written

BY PETE SLOVER

The Dallas Morning News


AUSTIN, Texas - (KRT) - The man named in a disputed memo as exerting pressure to "sugar coat" President Bush's military record left the Texas Air National Guard a year and a half before the memo was supposedly written, his own service record shows.

An order obtained by The Dallas Morning News shows that Col. Walter "Buck" Staudt was honorably discharged on March 1, 1972. CBS News reported this week that a memo in which Staudt was described as interfering with officers' negative evaluations of Bush's service, was dated Aug. 18, 1973.
.[/B]

---

ROFL ROFL ROFL

cdcox
09-10-2004, 10:09 PM
Kenneth, what's the frequency?

Frazod
09-10-2004, 10:09 PM
I really don't see how they could have possibly f#cked this up any worse.

Well, I guess it could have been handwritten using crayons.... ROFL

Mr. Kotter
09-10-2004, 10:12 PM
Kenneth, what's the frequency?

REP..... :thumb:

I'm embarrassed I didn't think of that... :banghead:

I was a huge REM fan in college.... :banghead: