PDA

View Full Version : questions at the first lady


Boyceofsummer
09-17-2004, 02:07 PM
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/09/17/bush.protester/index.html

Laura Bush heckled during campaign speech
'President Bush You Killed My Son' on mother's T-shirt
Friday, September 17, 2004 Posted: 3:57 PM EDT (1957 GMT)



Laura Bush praised the administration's achievements in the war on terror and the economy.


Refinance Rates Just Got Lower
Lock in the lowest rates of the summer. Get up to 4 free refinance quotes.
www.lowermybills.com

Home Equity Loans-4.25% APR
Receive up to 4 free loan quotes from trusted lenders. Get the cash you...
www.lowermybills.com

LendingTree.com - Official Site
Lendingtree - Find a mortgage, refinance, home equity or auto loan now. Receive...
www.lendingtree.com

GetSmart - the smart loan choice
Complete one short online form and receive up to three free quotes. GetSmart,...
www.getsmart.com



SPECIAL REPORT

The Candidates: Bush | Kerry
The Issues
The Money
The Polls
Timeline
Special Report

YOUR E-MAIL ALERTS
Laura Bush

Iraq

War and Society

or Create your own

Manage alerts | What is this?


HAMILTON, New Jersey (CNN) -- The mother of a soldier killed in Iraq was arrested Thursday in Hamilton, New Jersey, after interrupting a campaign speech by first lady Laura Bush. As police hauled her away, she shouted "police brutality."

Wearing a T-shirt with the message "President Bush You Killed My Son," Sue Niederer of nearby Hopewell screamed questions at the first lady as the audience tried to drown her out by chanting "four more years, four more years."

She kept shouting at Bush, and eventually police removed her from the firehouse rally.

The first lady finished her speech in praise of the administration's actions in the war on terror and on the economy.

Outside, Niederer said she wanted to ask Laura Bush "Why the senators, the legislators, the congressmen, why aren't their children serving?"

She went on to blame the president for the death of her 24-year-old son, Army 1st Lt. Seth Dvorin. He was killed February 3 while trying to defuse a roadside bomb that exploded.

As Hamilton police and Secret Service agents surrounded her and reporters pressed her with questions, she held her ground, saying she had a ticket to attend the speech.

Police handcuffed her and led her to a nearby van. She repeatedly shouted "police brutality," and demanded to know her rights and the charges.

Later, she was charged with defiant trespass and released.

Since her son's death, Niederer has spoken repeatedly against the Iraq conflict. She is active in the antiwar group Military Families Speak Out.

The Pittsburgh Independent Media Center reported that she recently participated in demonstrations around the Republican National Convention in New York.

In March, The Toronto Star reported that she had demonstrated outside Walter Reed Army Hospital in Washington, D.C., where many wounded soldiers are treated; and at Dover Air Force base, where soldiers' remains arrive back in the United States..

Neither the Bush campaign nor the Hamilton police would comment on the incident.

KCTitus
09-17-2004, 02:10 PM
A "Bush killed my son" T-Shirt...that's great stuff.

KCWolfman
09-17-2004, 02:18 PM
I heard that John Kerry killed people in Massachusetts with his liberal prison release program.

And Ralph Nader did so by insisting on car manufacturers increasing safety ratings and causing line workers to work overtime and cause themselves fatal injuries.

Damn those politicians all to hell.

Brock
09-17-2004, 02:22 PM
Bush didn't kill her son, guns did.

Cochise
09-17-2004, 02:46 PM
Subject line that makes no sense, check.

Didn't bother to edit out advertisements, check.

Yet another story about a nutjob protestor, check.

Nope... no need to bother with this one. ZZZ

alpha_omega
09-17-2004, 03:23 PM
Canada sure is nice this time of year!

warrior
09-17-2004, 03:42 PM
I can see by your great responses that you guy's didn't even read the artical, Which part was great ?
He was killed by the bomb dumb ass,not by a gun.

Duck Dog
09-17-2004, 03:59 PM
I can understand this lady is beyond misery from losing her son. And rightfuly so. But but there has to be much better way's of getting your point accross.

Donger
09-17-2004, 04:32 PM
"There was a suspicious object lying in the middle of the road and they stopped the convoy," Ms. Niederer said. "Seth and the driver got out to see what it was. When Seth realized it was probably a bomb, he sent the driver back to the truck and waved everyone away. Then the bomb, which obviously was a booby trap, was remotely detonated, killing him."

Ms. Niederer is outraged that her son was put in the position of dealing with the bomb in the first place.

"His training was in air defense artillery," she said. "He had no training in defusing bombs. Why wasn't an expert handling this? What's particularly amazing to me is that this was a mission to defuse bombs and there apparently was no expert in that area in the lead vehicle. Since there wasn't, why weren't they rerouted around that bomb? I want answers. I'm not going to just be quiet. If I speak up, maybe someone else's son won't die for nothing the way my son did. If I don't speak up, then he will really died completely in vain."

Weeping profusely, Rebekah Dvorin said, "My brother? He was the best friend I ever could ask for. I'll treasure his memory the rest of my life. You could talk to him about anything. He was always there for me. I believe he died in vain, to settle President Bush's vendetta. I love and truly miss him."

Greg Niederer, Lt. Dvorin's stepfather, choked hard on his tears and only was able to say, "Seth was one of the best you could ask for. I watched him grow up. It's such a shame, to see what's happened to such a nice young man."

"It is indeed," agreed Lt. Dvorin's stepgrandmother, Florence Sapir. "War used to be an honorable thing. This one is as far from that as you can get. Seth died in vain. So did the more than 500 other soldiers who died over there. They died for nothing."

Seth Dvorin was a 1998 graduate of South Brunswick High School. He received a bachelor's degree in criminology from Rutgers University (Livingston College) in 2002 and enlisted in the Army right after graduating from college. He graduated from Officer Candidate School at Ft. Benning, Ga., and received his commission on Jan. 17, 2003. He also graduated from Airborne and Air Defense Artillery Schools, and was stationed at Fort Drum, N.Y., as part of the 10th Mountain Division, Battery B, 3rd Battalion, 62nd Air Defense Artillery Regiment.

Sue Niederer said her son talked about going into the Army right after high school, but his family told him he had to go to college first. She said her son dreamed of a career in the FBI or CIA and was persuaded by an Army recruiter that he would have a better chance of reaching that goal if he were a military veteran.

"He also was promised that he would never go to combat," she said. "If he was in a war area, they told him, he would not be up front. My reaction to his going to Iraq was negative, to say the least. Seth's superior officer at Watertown also was against it. He told his superiors that Seth was still too wet behind the ears for that. He begged them not to send Seth. But they told him he was needed over there, and he went."

patteeu
09-17-2004, 04:36 PM
I can understand this lady is beyond misery from losing her son. And rightfuly so. But but there has to be much better way's of getting your point accross.

I agree, and I suppose the lady deserves a little slack because of her loss, but I can't help thinking that her son would have been embarassed by her actions.

warrior
09-17-2004, 04:52 PM
I agree, and I suppose the lady deserves a little slack because of her loss, but I can't help thinking that her son would have been embarassed by her actions.


That's really nice of you to think for her dead son.

patteeu
09-17-2004, 05:03 PM
That's really nice of you to think for her dead son.

No problem. Sounds like you could use someone to think for you too. I'd volunteer, but I'm stretched too thin as it is.

Calcountry
09-17-2004, 05:06 PM
Bush didn't kill her son, guns did.
:clap: Thats a rep

warrior
09-17-2004, 05:12 PM
No problem. Sounds like you could use someone to think for you too. I'd volunteer, but I'm stretched too thin as it is.


Why don't you volunter to go to Iraq . Jerk

patteeu
09-17-2004, 05:21 PM
Why don't you volunter to go to Iraq . Jerk

I'm an old guy just like you. They won't have me.

WilliamTheIrish
09-17-2004, 05:30 PM
I find it odd that Joyceofsummer has the time to post articles, but never has the time to stay and discuss anything of merit.

Soupnazi
09-17-2004, 05:40 PM
That's really nice of you to think for her dead son.
Nicer than your self-righteous response.

Let me ask you a question, warrior. Do you weep for the families of the 580 soldiers a year we lose to common traffic accidents?

Did your heart bleed when thousands of innocent civilians were killed when the US bombed eastern europe?

Did you feel this anger towards a president when he killed innocents trying to stop the ethnic cleansing of less than 3000 albanians?

Where was your indignation everytime a US soldier was killed trying to establish peace in a region that had absolutely no interest in the security of the US? Did you bitch and moan when our guys were killed in Bosnia and Kosovo?

Where was your protest when US armed forces were slaughtered time and time again by islamic terrorists without provocation?

Where was your anger at the president when army rangers were killed trying to provide peace and food to somalia?

The problem with people like you is that your problems with war only occurs when your guy isn't in office. People like you fail to realize that American soldiers have spent scores of years around the world dying trying to stop the killing of innocents, trying to protect people, even in democrat administrations. The conflicts come in many forms, many places. All is well, as long as a democrat is in office.

Why don't you be the first to pick up a weapon when they bomb our country again.

KCWolfman
09-17-2004, 05:43 PM
I can see by your great responses that you guy's didn't even read the artical, Which part was great ?
He was killed by the bomb dumb ass,not by a gun.
Actually, I did read it, and I responded in kind. If you blame GWB for the individual soldiers in Iraq, then are you blaming Kerry and Kennedy for every early release program felon that committed murder?

I am willing to bet your imagination doesn't stretch quite that far, does it?

FringeNC
09-17-2004, 05:49 PM
So Boyce, was FDR the greatest mass murderer in U.S. history?

KCWolfman
09-17-2004, 05:59 PM
So Boyce, was FDR the greatest mass murderer in U.S. history?
No, that would be Abraham Lincoln. More American men died in the Civil War than all others combined.

What sucks is that Boyce and warrior is that they cannot tell any other side of it as the men and their immediate families are dead and warrior has already stated we cannot speak for the dead.

Therefore, Abraham Lincoln is a murderous bastard and deserved to be shot.

FringeNC
09-17-2004, 06:01 PM
No, that would be Abraham Lincoln. More American men died in the Civil War than all others combined.

What sucks is that Boyce and warrior is that they cannot tell any other side of it as the men and their immediate families are dead and warrior has already stated we cannot speak for the dead.

Therefore, Abraham Lincoln is a murderous bastard and deserved to be shot.

I stand corrected.

WilliamTheIrish
09-17-2004, 06:39 PM
Every grieving mother responds in different ways I suppose. Being angry and wanting to place blame is natural for any Mom who loses a child.

OldTownChief
09-17-2004, 07:23 PM
Subject line that makes no sense, check.

Didn't bother to edit out advertisements, check.

Yet another story about a nutjob protestor, check.

Nope... no need to bother with this one. ZZZ


:clap: Your post was as far as I got. rep

Boyceofsummer
09-17-2004, 07:48 PM
the fact that her son was killed. The point was: "As Hamilton police and Secret Service agents surrounded her and reporters pressed her with questions, she held her ground, saying she had a ticket to attend the speech.

Police handcuffed her and led her to a nearby van. She repeatedly shouted "police brutality," and demanded to know her rights and the charges.

Later, she was charged with defiant trespass and released.

polititicians that like war have no use for the down side. PROTEST! In addition I'm not going to spend all my time on this board. I'll leave that job to RINGADINGALINGLOSER.

OldTownChief
09-17-2004, 08:04 PM
I'm not going to spend all my time on this board.


Thank You
:clap:

rep on the way

WilliamTheIrish
09-17-2004, 08:28 PM
the fact that her son was killed. The point was: "As Hamilton police and Secret Service agents surrounded her and reporters pressed her with questions, she held her ground, saying she had a ticket to attend the speech.

Police handcuffed her and led her to a nearby van. She repeatedly shouted "police brutality," and demanded to know her rights and the charges.

Later, she was charged with defiant trespass and released.

polititicians that like war have no use for the down side. PROTEST! In addition I'm not going to spend all my time on this board. I'll leave that job to RINGADINGALINGLOSER.

Oh. Now I understand. If you have a ticket in a .... theater, to a ... Michael Moore film. If i stand up and say "Michael Moore killed more Twinkies than Osama killed Americans", at the top of my lungs, will I be allowed to stay in the movie? I bought a ticket after all.



This mother greives for her son lost in war. I can't blame her for that.

Hel'n
09-17-2004, 09:37 PM
A "Bush killed my son" T-Shirt...that's great stuff.

She had every right to wear that shirt... It was her son that was killed in Iraq... and he wouldn't have been there without orders from the CIC...

OldTownChief
09-17-2004, 09:43 PM
She had every right to wear that shirt... It was her son that was killed in Iraq... and he wouldn't have been there without orders from the CIC...


Should we have bothered with involving ourselves in WWII after Pearl Harbor?

Duck Dog
09-17-2004, 10:57 PM
Why don't you volunter to go to Iraq . Jerk

There are more guys around here than you think, that have been there already. There are also a lot of people here who know soldiers there.


I have to ask. Have you been there?

patteeu
09-18-2004, 06:35 AM
She had every right to wear that shirt... It was her son that was killed in Iraq... and he wouldn't have been there without orders from the CIC...

She wasn't removed for wearing her shirt. If she hadn't caused a commotion that interferred with the other attendees rights, she would have been allowed to stay.

Cntrygal
09-18-2004, 10:19 AM
She wasn't removed for wearing her shirt. If she hadn't caused a commotion that interferred with the other attendees rights, she would have been allowed to stay.

:clap:




As a side note, I don't believe the mother has any idea of all the training that her son had. UXO (unexploded ordinance) training is normal training for all fields. Granted, some fields have more "expertise" than others, but everyone is given basic training of them. From what I gathered, he did the correct thing in waving his people back - but what he did wrong was he didn't go back far enough with them. If defusing bombs wasn't his field, why was he messing with it? He must have had the training or he was not following rules.


Mom has the right to grieve. Mom does not have the right to cause chaos and disrupt proceedings that other people also paid to see.

BigMeatballDave
09-18-2004, 10:28 AM
She had every right to wear that shirt... It was her son that was killed in Iraq... and he wouldn't have been there without orders from the CIC...Asinine...

Brock
09-18-2004, 10:58 AM
She had every right to wear that shirt... It was her son that was killed in Iraq... and he wouldn't have been there without orders from the CIC...

There are limits to free speech, get over it.

Hel'n
09-18-2004, 11:57 AM
Should we have bothered with involving ourselves in WWII after Pearl Harbor?

Please show me where Iraq bombed the WTC...

Hel'n
09-18-2004, 11:58 AM
Asinine...

You're dismissive and simplistic... It was her right...

Hel'n
09-18-2004, 11:58 AM
There are limits to free speech, get over it.

Yes, and only Republicans get to define those limits...

Joe Seahawk
09-18-2004, 12:07 PM
Yes, and only Republicans get to define those limits...
Wearing a T-shirt with the message "President Bush You Killed My Son," Sue Niederer of nearby Hopewell screamed questions at the first lady as the audience tried to drown her out by chanting "four more years, four more years."



So Helen, are you saying they should have just stood by and let her scream at the first lady during her speech?


Use your brain would you.. :shake:

Duck Dog
09-18-2004, 12:14 PM
You're dismissive and simplistic... It was her right...

It was her right to wear it and she has free speech (no matter how foolish she looks). But you can not be disrupting and threatening.

With all the wacko's out there, anyone showing aggression toward the first family (of any party) is going to be dealt with, for safety's sake.

She chose the wrong way to voice her opinion.

KCWolfman
09-18-2004, 12:31 PM
:clap:




As a side note, I don't believe the mother has any idea of all the training that her son had. UXO (unexploded ordinance) training is normal training for all fields. Granted, some fields have more "expertise" than others, but everyone is given basic training of them. From what I gathered, he did the correct thing in waving his people back - but what he did wrong was he didn't go back far enough with them. If defusing bombs wasn't his field, why was he messing with it? He must have had the training or he was not following rules.


Mom has the right to grieve. Mom does not have the right to cause chaos and disrupt proceedings that other people also paid to see.
Thank you

Baby Lee
09-18-2004, 12:39 PM
Please show me where Iraq bombed the WTC...
With apologies to the Honorable John Blutarsky Please show me where Germany bombed Pearl Harbor.

Deberg_1990
09-18-2004, 12:49 PM
I feel bad for this lady losing her son...and she has every right to grieve...but if she didnt want him to go to war, why did she let him join in the first place? Im always amazed at people who join the military, and then when war breaks out, they suddenly become "consinscious objectors" What did these people expect when they joined??

DanT
09-18-2004, 01:05 PM
Hitler declared war on the United States on December 11, 1941.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/hitler_declares_war.html

President Roosevelt then requested of Congress that a War Resolution be passed against Germany.

http://www.ukans.edu/carrie/docs/texts/us_dec_g.htm

KCWolfman
09-18-2004, 01:22 PM
I feel bad for this lady losing her son...and she has every right to grieve...but if she didnt want him to go to war, why did she let him join in the first place? Im always amazed at people who join the military, and then when war breaks out, they suddenly become "consinscious objectors" What did these people expect when they joined??
She cannot force an adult to do anything. That is why the "Would you send your son" and the "why aren't your sons there" arguments are so lame.

Hel'n
09-18-2004, 01:42 PM
Wearing a T-shirt with the message "President Bush You Killed My Son," Sue Niederer of nearby Hopewell screamed questions at the first lady as the audience tried to drown her out by chanting "four more years, four more years."


So Helen, are you saying they should have just stood by and let her scream at the first lady during her speech?


Use your brain would you.. :shake:

I think the screaming was out of line. But wearing the t-shirt in silence would be perfectly fine way of voicing her opinion...

Hel'n
09-18-2004, 01:42 PM
With apologies to the Honorable John Blutarsky Please show me where Germany bombed Pearl Harbor.

Um, Germany declared war on us. Not the other way around...

The way you folks play with history is incredibly creative...

headsnap
09-18-2004, 01:42 PM
Yes, and only Republicans get to define those limits...
freedom of speech, is not freedom of the consequences of said speech...

Raiderhader
09-18-2004, 01:44 PM
Yes, and only Republicans get to define those limits...


It is not our fault that you and your side are so whacked out that you lost any and all control on the national level.

Raiderhader
09-18-2004, 01:46 PM
I think the screaming was out of line. But wearing the t-shirt in silence would be perfectly fine way of voicing her opinion...


And where does it say that she was dragged out of the rally, or arrested because of the t-shirt?

The way you folks play with facts is incredibly creative.

Hel'n
09-18-2004, 01:54 PM
And where does it say that she was dragged out of the rally, or arrested because of the t-shirt?

The way you folks play with facts is incredibly creative.

1. I didn't say she was dragged out.

2. KC Titus said:
A "Bush killed my son" T-Shirt...that's great stuff.

3. My remarks were originally specifically aimed at his assinine remark regarding the t-shirt...

4. I believe she was removed for her screaming... and I understand that...

5. YOu've taken my remarks, spun them out of context, to suit your own viewpoints...

6. Read more carefully, please...

Raiderhader
09-18-2004, 02:13 PM
1. I didn't say she was dragged out.

2. KC Titus said:


3. My remarks were originally specifically aimed at his assinine remark regarding the t-shirt...

4. I believe she was removed for her screaming... and I understand that...

5. YOu've taken my remarks, spun them out of context, to suit your own viewpoints...

6. Read more carefully, please...


1. you are focusing on the wrong part of the statement, I was going more for the role the t-shirt played in her being dragged out.

2. Titus has nothing to do with this, I quoted a post that was in response to Joe Seahawk. His focus was on the disruption the woman was causiong, you are the one who wanted to address the t-shirt in your response to him.

3. If you are trying to aim your remarks at Titus by going through Joe who mentioned nothing of the shirt himself, well, that IS asanine.

4. Good, now let's not lose sight of this fact.

5. I have done no such thing. I have merely responded to what you said to Joe. Quit trying to play the victim.

6. Follow your own advice.

Brock
09-18-2004, 03:09 PM
Yes, and only Republicans get to define those limits...

Riiight. Which is why a Bush supporter was mauled at a Kerry rally 2 weeks ago, and why a little girl had her Bush sign torn up by Kerry supporters a few days ago. But carry on with your ultra simple thinking.

Raiderhader
09-18-2004, 03:31 PM
Riiight. Which is why a Bush supporter was mauled at a Kerry rally 2 weeks ago, and why a little girl had her Bush sign torn up by Kerry supporters a few days ago. But carry on with your ultra simple thinking.



Didn't you hear, that was a plot by the father.

patteeu
09-18-2004, 04:13 PM
Hitler declared war on the United States on December 11, 1941.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/hitler_declares_war.html

President Roosevelt then requested of Congress that a War Resolution be passed against Germany.

http://www.ukans.edu/carrie/docs/texts/us_dec_g.htm

If your point is that Germany did commit an act of war against us before we decided to send troops, then you should also acknowledge that Saddam's military took shots at our aircraft patrolling the nofly zones on a regular basis for years prior to our ultimate decision to remove him.

Um, Germany declared war on us. Not the other way around...

The way you folks play with history is incredibly creative...

See my response above.

Baby Lee
09-18-2004, 04:15 PM
Um, Germany declared war on us. Not the other way around...

The way you folks play with history is incredibly creative...
It's an 'Animal House' reference, you dolt. Get a sense of humor.

DanT
09-18-2004, 04:22 PM
If your point is that Germany did commit an act of war against us before we decided to send troops, then you should also acknowledge that Saddam's military took shots at our aircraft patrolling the nofly zones on a regular basis for years prior to our ultimate decision to remove him.



See my response above.

Was that ever used as a justification by members of our government to attack Iraq? Where?

KCWolfman
09-18-2004, 04:41 PM
Was that ever used as a justification by members of our government to attack Iraq? Where?
No multiple requests failed to be met regarding specific points of a treaty over the course of 12+ years was the reason why.

Raiderhader
09-18-2004, 05:06 PM
If your point is that Germany did commit an act of war against us before we decided to send troops, then you should also acknowledge that Saddam's military took shots at our aircraft patrolling the nofly zones on a regular basis for years prior to our ultimate decision to remove him.



See my response above.


Don't forget an assasination attempt on a former President.

KCWolfman
09-18-2004, 05:08 PM
Don't forget an assasination attempt on a former President.
And funding international terrorist such as the homocide bombers in Israel.

Raiderhader
09-18-2004, 05:08 PM
Was that ever used as a justification by members of our government to attack Iraq? Where?


I do recall the President mentioning it on more than one occasion.

Raiderhader
09-18-2004, 05:10 PM
And funding international terrorist such as the homocide bombers in Israel.


And providing training camps for international terrosists in his country.

DanT
09-18-2004, 05:19 PM
www.whitehouse.gov has a search engine.

Calcountry
09-18-2004, 05:44 PM
Should we have bothered with involving ourselves in WWII after Pearl Harbor?
No, WWII was Illconceived, ill planned. We didn't have a plan to "win the peace". No back then, we just kicked there fuggin ass until there was no more ass to kick.

OldTownChief
09-18-2004, 05:44 PM
Please show me where Iraq bombed the WTC...

Please show me where Germany bombed Pearl Harbor...

Raiderhader
09-18-2004, 05:53 PM
No, WWII was Illconceived, ill planned. We didn't have a plan to "win the peace". No back then, we just kicked there fuggin ass until there was no more ass to kick.


Sounds like a plan to win the peace to me. Heh heh heh.

Hel'n
09-18-2004, 08:46 PM
Riiight. Which is why a Bush supporter was mauled at a Kerry rally 2 weeks ago, and why a little girl had her Bush sign torn up by Kerry supporters a few days ago. But carry on with your ultra simple thinking.


I see... It was the police who mauled the supporter and tore up the little girl's sign...

Hel'n
09-18-2004, 08:47 PM
And funding international terrorist such as the homocide bombers in Israel.

The PLO are not "international" terrorists...

That was NEVER used as a justification for going to war with Iraq...

Never....

Hel'n
09-18-2004, 08:51 PM
Please show me where Germany bombed Pearl Harbor...

And what are you smoking tonight?

My gosh, Germany declared war on us... That was enough in itself...

Iraq never declared war on us. We never did overflights of Germany prior to WWII. (Yes, it wasn't technically feasible I know.) We did not police Germany prior to WWII, although the allies after WWI tried to keep Germany destitute and broke...

You guys are reaching on these comparisons and you know it...

I'm not going to engage in such a stretch of the imagination...

Brock
09-18-2004, 08:56 PM
I see... It was the police who mauled the supporter and tore up the little girl's sign...

Oh, I see. All police are Republican. :rolleyes:

Raiderhader
09-18-2004, 09:39 PM
The PLO are not "international" terrorists...

That was NEVER used as a justification for going to war with Iraq...

Never....


Where did he specify the PLO?

Raiderhader
09-18-2004, 09:41 PM
And what are you smoking tonight?

My gosh, Germany declared war on us... That was enough in itself...

Iraq never declared war on us. We never did overflights of Germany prior to WWII. (Yes, it wasn't technically feasible I know.) We did not police Germany prior to WWII, although the allies after WWI tried to keep Germany destitute and broke...

You guys are reaching on these comparisons and you know it...

I'm not going to engage in such a stretch of the imagination...


If you shoot at our pilots and attempt an assasination of one of our former Presidents, you have declared war.

Only a selfish, politically motivated hack would argue otherwise.

6 Iron
09-18-2004, 10:27 PM
The PLO are not "international" terrorists...


The Israeli athletes abducted and murdered at the 1972 Olympics will be glad to hear this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich_massacre

Hel'n
09-18-2004, 10:39 PM
The Israeli athletes abducted and murdered at the 1972 Olympics will be glad to hear this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich_massacre

I'm well aware of that... They were not "terrorizing" us... Nor did they attack us... As much as I detest the PLO and think they are scum, they were attacking Israelis, so shouldn't it be the Israelis that declare war on Iraq?

And since the Munich attack happened in Germany, shouldn't it be Germany that declares war on Iraq?

Lots of reaching... You wouldn't last long in debate class with that type of tortuous logic...

KCWolfman
09-18-2004, 11:32 PM
I'm well aware of that... They were not "terrorizing" us... Nor did they attack us... As much as I detest the PLO and think they are scum, they were attacking Israelis, so shouldn't it be the Israelis that declare war on Iraq?

And since the Munich attack happened in Germany, shouldn't it be Germany that declares war on Iraq?

Lots of reaching... You wouldn't last long in debate class with that type of tortuous logic...
The Germans were not attacking us in WWI.

KCWolfman
09-18-2004, 11:34 PM
The PLO are not "international" terrorists...

That was NEVER used as a justification for going to war with Iraq...

Never....
When a terrorist attacks from somewhere other than his own country, he is international. When Syrian families receive money for homocide bombers in Israel, they are international terrorists.

Oh, and FWIW, I never stated it was used as justification. But if you want to apply that logic ALL the time, please let the other morons who state the WMD explanation was the reason for war that they are wrong as well. Iraq was invaded due to failure to release information of what occurred with weapons they were told to dismantle years ago, after repeated attempts.

6 Iron
09-18-2004, 11:42 PM
I'm well aware of that... They were not "terrorizing" us... Nor did they attack us... As much as I detest the PLO and think they are scum, they were attacking Israelis, so shouldn't it be the Israelis that declare war on Iraq?

And since the Munich attack happened in Germany, shouldn't it be Germany that declares war on Iraq?

Lots of reaching... You wouldn't last long in debate class with that type of tortuous logic...

Hel'n,

I was merely responding to one of your statements that was false. Your follow up points certainly are ........tortuous.

Hel'n
09-19-2004, 12:34 AM
Hel'n,

I was merely responding to one of your statements that was false. Your follow up points certainly are ........tortuous.

I'm a loving and accepting person gaddammit! Torture is simply my hobby!!!!

;)

Raiderhader
09-19-2004, 07:54 AM
I'm well aware of that... They were not "terrorizing" us... Nor did they attack us... As much as I detest the PLO and think they are scum, they were attacking Israelis, so shouldn't it be the Israelis that declare war on Iraq?

And since the Munich attack happened in Germany, shouldn't it be Germany that declares war on Iraq?

Lots of reaching... You wouldn't last long in debate class with that type of tortuous logic...


I don't believe he said they did.

Isreal is an ally, and if we are going to ask them to limit their actions in regards to their national defense (stupid, stupid, hypocritical policy) it is only right that we pick up the slack.

I am almost certain that the President declared war on all terrorists, not just the ones that you deem a threat.

The exit from the debate class is through that door over there ---> Have a nice day.